Good story m8. And true. Its even worse though. There is no global warming other than recovery from little ice age and CO2 does not affect temperature. Lots of studies found no correlation and worse again even; CO2 is THE life giving substance on earth. Plants need it to grow and the current levels of CO2 are too low, bc there is continuous binding (by tiny lifeforms) into rock. Thats where the vast majority of CO2 is now. If anything, using fossil fuels is needed and there is plenty of it. Then the question remains why they push this nonsense. I think it is 2 fold: One, for the people in power to gain power and TWO, because of the principle that mankind has always tried to free people from labor by producing more efficiently. This has brought us to the situation where half the jobs in the west are non producing/ non functional jobs. So they want to push new things all the time, to employ more people and keep money 'rolling'. Our currencies (none of which are actual money) are going down as the west is crumbling financially and economically. All this creates new tech, new products, new jobs (as you also state) and postpones the inevitable for a bit. But that wont last. One of those fields is solar and wind energy, but that only works, bc they keep increasing prices and have most of that stuff made in China, with fossil fuels. Thats all trickery. Energtically there is no gain of energy from solar and wind, as it is used now. It depends somewhat on the lifespan, which is pretty certain at this time for windturbines and for solar... probably not much more than stated. Also the efficiency of solar cell panels gradually goes down. Same as for hear pumps, but in a different way. Heat pump sounds nice, but again, you have to add all cost to make an energetic balance and i dont think its going to be beneficial. The entire circus is probably going to come crash down soon.
I live in the USA and I’ve worked in the HVAC field for almost 40 years. I have serviced and installed just about every type of heating/cooling system there is during that time, and I have seen end users who were unhappy with every type of heating and cooling system there is. When looking into why the occupants were unhappy, the root cause is just as often the deficiencies in the building envelope, as it has been the equipment itself. I live in a rural area and currently use a closed loop geothermal heat pump to heat and cool my house. It works very well for me, because my local utility offers a great rate per KW for heat pumps, my house is newer and VERY well insulated, with an excellent vapor barrier, and the ductwork was designed with extra heat runs in order to reduce the velocity of the relatively cooler air being supplied during the heating mode. I always tell homeowners to invest in insulating and improving the vapor barrier of their home if possible BEFORE investing in a high efficiency heating system; especially a heat pump system. Even the most expensive and most efficient heating system will not work well, and the occupants of the home won’t be comfortable if there is unwanted air movement through the structure, and too much heat transfer through the walls and ceilings! I have seen quite a few unhappy homeowners who were sold a heat pump system for an old, under insulated, drafty farmhouse. The poor building envelope, relatively low supply air temperature, coupled with the higher amount of air being moved, results in high electric bills and uncomfortable occupants. I always say: Just because it says “high efficiency” on the box doesn’t mean the appliance jumps out of it and cures all of your heating/cooling headaches. A good building envelope is at least half the battle, then if you select, design, install, and control a good quality, high efficiency, heating and cooling system, you will have low operating costs, and comfortable occupants!
@@Frommirrorworld You don’t, or there is one master system for the building that uses a piped system to move hot or cold water through the building. No one system fits every possible situation.
It will be interesting to see the report later this year on the BPA’s tests around the PNW using carbon dioxide (R744 for you HVAC folks) water-heating heat pumps for space heating. They picked maritime and moderate on the Coast, i.e. temperate rainforest, temperate and moderate west of Cascades, or Puget Sound and Willamette Valley, inland dry and colder, think Spokane and Bend, Oregon, and quite cold locations (McCall, Idaho?). Don’t quote me too closely on locations. I skimmed it six months ago. Final report is always more interesting.
Interestingly, my Thermopride (the best oil fired furnace burner, period) oil furnace has a temperature of ~105-110F at the supply vents. My Fujitsu mini split air handler pushes out heat at 120F. Modern heat pumps are unbeatable.
One simple wood furnace can create 30kw of energy easily and costs 1k bucks or even less and will heat up a small house with a very bad insulation. On the other side 30kw heat exchange pump will cost hell of a money counted in tens of thousands dollars and isn't affordable. That's what many people don't understand. Insulation is first step to bring the loss of energy down and heat pump is last.
I'm a Brit living in Iceland, it's crazy how well insulated the homes here are compared to the UK. A home can be warm enough just with sunlight coming through the windows when it's 0c. But when heating is needed it's geothermal water pumped from the ground directly into your home, for £25 a month... totally green and cheap, it's ideal!
So, basically, the solution is to move everyone to Iceland? Don't you worry it might get a bit crowded there and that keeping your houses warm economically will suddenly become the least of your problems?
@@kingcurry6594 luckily they have strict building regulations so the earthquake aren't a problem in terms of damage, and the biggest volcanos are a good distance away from the population areas, but yes there's risks
I live in Sweden and my house has a heat pump as do almost all houses here in the far North. Mine works down to about -15c below that I use electric radiators. My neighbour has one that will work down to -25c. The heat pump is not the problem. It's the type of housing that the UK has. Even new builds are not that well insulated. We have no gas but we have surplus electricity.
Cold and dry isn't a problem for air source heat pumps but 3C with a dewpoint of 1C (a very typical UK winter situation) causes a rapid build up of ice so the CoP and duty cycle go through the floor. I have an ASHP on an outbuilding and sure, it's OK above about 7C and OK below about -5C but these are not the typical UK conditions.
In my experience, heat pumps work fine in cold dry weather. The problem comes with damp weather. If it is between 32 and 45 and humidity is high, the heat pump freezes up. It drastically reduces heating power and efficiency. Under these conditions, I doubt it is more efficient or environmentally friendly than natural gas. I also question if your system has supplemental resistance heating, most do? If the resistance heating is being used then it is less efficient than natural gas.
In fairness I don't think this Government has the skill or intelligence to manipulate the market to that extreme. Besides electricity has sky rocketed too. Rather it's men in suits exploiting a business opportunity and jumping on the carbon free band wagon. Oh wait...
But would a gas boiler in your home be cheaper and more efficient if it was as available and priced the same as the UK, including installation and maintenance costs over that 12 year period?
@@simonpeggboard4004 if u go that route the most cost efficient is really good insulation and electric floor heating, really cheap installation and no maintenance ever. It almost never breaks either and the repairs are very cheap. But good luck getting subsidies for that.
@@Jester-rm9ox Not sure they have subsidies for heat pumps in Norway (which was the subject of the conversation). Last time I checked electric underfloor was less reliable than wet underfloor by a factor of 3, but been a while since I looked.
Yes, air to air Heat pumps work great for being cheap, and heating the air. and they do even more in the UK, but the problem is that they want to phase out the Gass boilers, and the gass make the heated tap-water. Not many houses in Norway use the Air to Water or water to water pumps as they cost way more, are more complicated, takes more room etc. And they can't get ass efficient as the temperature has to be twice as hot(because of the tap water).
Been checking the heat pump sites and you are so right. What you say about heated clothing is the best idea, I now invest in thermal underwear and insulation for the house and have had a comfortable winter on background heating. As a bonus I find as soon as we get a bit of winter sun I can sit outside to enjoy my pint !!
What I learned from this video: 1. Poorly insulated houses are harder to heat. 2. Whether you save with a heat pump depends on the relative cost of gas vs electricity. 3. All Brit's have poorly insulated homes and access to cheap gas. What I DID NOT learn from this video: 1. How to properly size a heat pump for a specific home. 2. That a heat pump can operate as an air conditioner in the summer. 3. What the economic and environmental costs of burning gas are.
I am a retired Carpenter and Joiner now in my ninth decade. I recall the ststements I heard as an apprentice and they were a bunch of hard working well experienced tradesmen who had lived through hard times, some fighting in two world wars. Roger is singing from the same hymn-sheet and he will be proved right. Listen to him and take what he says on board.
@@robuk3723 How about you pay to tear down all the old houses not well built enough, and rebuild energy efficient homes for them. Do something to help or shut up
Well said Bob, totally agree and as a retired engineer myself the modern world suffers from an inability to think practically and learn from those with knowledge. Good intentions and profits lead us down the wrong roads often.
Great information and extremely well presented. I was a fully qualified HVAC engineer (now retired) and have designed and installed all manner of heating systems. So I'm well qualified to judge your info, which as I said is wonderful. Good to hear you include rough costs too. Well done. and thank you.
This panel can put out close to 100 watts ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxOqI2yqX0XVrhR2BMJciTWrHJpG8FhJyg when positioned in the appropriate southernly direction, tilted to the optimal angle for your latitude/date, and connected to a higher capacity device than a 500. The built in kickstand angle is a fixed at 50 degrees. Up to 20% more power can be output by selecting the actual date and latitude optimal angle.The 500 will only input 3.5A maximum at 18 volts for 63 watts. Some of the excess power from the panel can be fed into a USB battery bank, charged directly from the panel while also charging a 500. This will allow you to harvest as much as 63 + 15 = 78 watts.If this panel is used to charge a larger device, such as the power station, then its full output potential can be realized.
I moved to Ireland in 2018 and bought a new house with a Heat Pump installed. Current building regulations require that houses are highly insulated (ours is A3) and therefore the heat pump technology works really well. Overall I have been very impressed and happy with the low running costs when compared to our former U.K. property (both 2200 sq ft). My only gripe is the inability to access instant extra heat when needed on a rare occasion. We do also have a wood burning stove but have only needed to use this 4 or 5 times in 3 years. An excellent video for others living in poorly insulated houses. I will send this to friends considering heat pumps. I will recommend two careers to my children….installing heat pumps and setting up a claims call centre!
This is good to hear. I'm building a house at the moment and have fitted underfloor heating throughout to use with heat pumps. Really hoping it's not a massive mistake!
You can get this extra heat with a simple modification : adding a mixing bottle to your installation. Il keeps a little amount of warm water in it, that helps the heat pump to use less power at the start and gaining few extra minutes of heating at the start. Also, think about programming your heat pump to start at a sertain time, then you can have heat when you wake up :)
It took me about 20 minutes to install it on my own. As long as you can lift it out the box and up into position you’re good. I did have to break the box to get it out as it was a snug fit. I followed the installation video on you tube which was a big help. I added this to support central air in my house that was struggling upstairs because of my house design. Lovely unit. Very quiet ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx_hHgTlzH3uk31Fe2RVS3xEbXHGaN_z5T and looks sharp. Had it in a couple of weeks and so far so good. It’s cooling a bedroom about 25ft X 15 no problem at all.
My stone cottage has solid stone walls three feet thick. It was built about 275 years ago. The thermal mass of the building is amazing. It is always toasty warm in the winter, and nice and cool in a hot summer. My only source of heating is a log burner, using free wood waste.
You’re lucky. Here in America we build our houses out of wood and chemically-laden wood waste. At least we have fiberglass meat in our wood/wood waste sandwiches; but that certainly does not compensate for a lack of thermal mass.
Lovely Rant No gas in my area, installed a heat pump whilst renovating and up graded all the insulation to spec of building control. Absolutely brilliant and electric bills were very cheap for the whole building and plenty of hot water. Could not complain about the system.
Yeah, you want to rip your house apart to install a completely new system. No way. Actually is this not a similar punt as the whole solar panel scam? They really do think we are simple.
Top rant Roger. But please base your rant on the correct numbers. A COP of 1 or 2 is very very bad (did I say that's is very bad COP). You might get a COP of 1 at -20C. The average COP (or better Seasonal COP (SCOP), is around 3.4 to 4. So even at 0C, the COP of a good heat pump is > 3. Furthermore you are talking about Air-Water heat pumps. You forgot (the more expensive) Water-Water heatpump where the COP is quite stable because the energie is taken from the earth which is quite stable, even is it is < -10C. The heat pump is certainly not a new technologie, it might be new technologie for the UK and is perfectly capable of heating a normally build house. Heat pumps rely on low temp radiators or floor heating and are doing a great job. But you need to understand how it works. A heat pump is the last thing you install in your house, after you got rid of the draft and the uninsulated floor, walls and most important the roof. Your rant should be about the uninformed installer (including yourself I'm afraid). Please get your fact right. p.s. By telling your audience that some people may say things work perfectly, but those are exceptions, you stop any good discussion before it even started, a bad idea.
What about the refrigerant gases, such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) damage the ozone layer, while others are extremely potent greenhouse gases. In fact, one kilogram of the refrigerant R410a has the same greenhouse impact as two tonnes of carbon dioxide, which is the equivalent of running your car for six months. No one talks about that.
Disconcerting that you've got 19 upvotes so far. Quite a few people have clearly bought the hype, and are in for a nasty shock when they go ahead and install a heat pump. Air source heat pumps are expensive as it is, ground source heat pumps cost even more, and will be way out of most people's price range. Most UK housing stock is too draughty for heat pumps to work properly. Our houses actually have air bricks built into them to let outside air in and ensure there's adequate ventilation. Houses designed for heat pumps are completely draught proofed and don't have any built in ventilation, instead they use something called MVHR (mechanical ventilation with heat recovery) to exchange interior and external air without much heat loss. It's not feasible to draught proof existing housing stock to the level required for heat pumps to work efficiently. That's why people who have them installed are complaining of cold houses and large electricity bills. The COP of a heat pump depends on the outside temperature. Their COP drops substantially below 0C, and below about -10C most of them shut off altogether and switch to resistive heating (COP of 1, the heat you get out is the same as the electricity you put in). When it's colder you also need more heat of course, so what this means is that the electricity demand of these things spikes dramatically in cold weather. By what could easily be a factor of 10. Very cold weather doesn't happen that often in the UK so it might not seem like that big a deal, but if millions of households have converted to these things it's going to crash the grid. We have very little spare generating capacity as it is, there quite simply isn't enough spare capacity to support millions of air source heat pumps (especially if their demand climbs to 10x normal due to very cold weather). It'll be like the blackouts in Texas, except a regular occurrence every time there's cold weather. Vulnerable people will die, and housing stock will be ruined by pipe bursts. It's an insane policy, especially since most of our electricity is generated from gas with an efficiency of only about 50 percent, when modern gas boilers have an efficiency greater than 90 percent.
The Doctors' surgery behind our house has some kind of heat exchange system which fires up at 2 am and runs for half an hour. Then at about 3.30am it starts again. The outside equipment is around 50 yards away but it still wakes me up most nights. I can only imagine the noise if every house had one. There must be a viable alternative.
Our next door neighbour has an oil fired central heating system that makes a racket when it fires up. Meanwhile my three neighbouring air source heat pumps and my ground source heat pump are inaudible.
What wakes me are the awful vibrations at 2:30 on top of a 24/7 zooming and deep buzz. It’s an upstair neighbour with unit in the appartment resonating everywhere in my house. After 3 yrs I can no longer cope
IVE NOTICED ALL THESE DRAFT PROOF HOUSES AND FLATS ARE WAY TOO HOT IN THE SUMMER HARD TO SLEEP , RATHER LIVE IN DRAFTY HOUSE AND SLEEP LIKE A KING IN THE SUMMER
Insulate ceilings walls floors and windows first including draught-proofing. Putting any form of heating into a cold damp leaky box wont reap any sensible result. Common sense prevails.
@@goury Here in New Zealand rental properties must comply as of 1 July 2021 for minimum R-Values for insulation and a range of other energy efficiency measures. So, it would seem like many other country to country differences that this is about governmental priorities and policies. This energy policy the UK has seems bizarre that they don't insulate to a minimum standard prior to grants/subsidies for heating.
We just retrofitted our old early 1900's farm house with air-conditioning with the optional heat pumps. Two systems were installed, a spacewalk for the main floor, and a carrier system for the upstairs and attic. The house is 2300 sq feet plus a 400 sq fit attic, which was also included in the system. Previously, the home had hot water radiator heat and no AC. The boiler runs on natural gas. The boiler is 38 year old. The new system is designed to heat utilizing the heat pumps until the outside temperature gets down to 28 degrees. After that, the boiler kicks on. So far, with over a year of use, our highest monthly utility bill has been $118.00 US or both electric and gas. This is just over 1/3 or our previous high bills of 312.00. The system was very expensive to us, but having these ultra low bills, do help me appreciate the initial cost. I have zero complaints. Saving up now for a boiler replacement.
I installed a air to water heat pump 3 years ago in a 1950s house in southern Scandinavia with no cavity wall insulation and minimal insulation consisting of wooden chips in the loft. It has locally hand made double glassed windows also from the 1950s. Previous heating was converted oil to electrical and I'm using the original water radiators. Water was heated separately with an electrical heater. I can safely say I have not only a more evenly heated house (not sure why, but it is), but my heating bill has been reduced by 75%-80%. The noise pollution has been minimal.
Noise.. Have you considered LFN (low frequency noise)? You may very well not hear it, but LFN can travel miles causing totally unsuspecting citizens to search for a hum they will never be able to explain, but seriously disturbs their peace.
@@spiceworks5704 A very valid point. Noise is similar to an air conditioning unit. We did turn the unit by 90° as my neighbour did experience some low level humming noise that he noticed at night and just above the background noise. It is in the country side, so very quiet. He has a background as an engineer in Radio/Television and he measured using his sound level meter.
A friend of ours has a GS heat pump and her house is lovely and warm. BUT, it’s a £0.7 M new build with underfloor heating across the whole ground floor, superb insulation, a plant room bigger than most people’s bathrooms and thermostats in every bedroom. Our house is 120 years old, and it’d be impossibly impracticable and expensive to try to replicate that, we’ll stick to our cosy gas boiler. Great video, thanks.
Being a qualified heating engineer myself you are spot on. Air source heat pumps = Larger pipe sizes, larger radiators, insulation. Buffer tank. It’s a 20k project. You are spot on.
Not sure about larger pipe size a nd radiators - Insulation definitely . the other argument is just to continue gas / oil because we have poor insulation Huh?? Wait till Vlad decides to cut off your oil
@@Lance-fk1eb Not Putin, the clown Johnson stopping production in the North sea and the licenses for exploration years and years oil and gas still left
@@Lance-fk1eb ordinary radiators are made for higher water temperature (smaller surfice area) and ordinary pipes have trouble leading the needed amount of not that hot water to give enough effect on to the radiator.. (if you have a high speed on the water there is a annoying sound in the system and i guess it might lead to cavitation, perhaps also to small temperature difference between outgoing water and returning water that will effect the efficiency of the system a lot negatively.)
I live in Canada, have had two heat pumps since 2012 replacing base board electrical heat.. I do have good quality insulation and have experienced huge savings since then. No incentives were available and costs were paid back by 2018. No issues down to -20 as it doesn’t get any colder here. I do agree with the insulation comments. I would spend my money on insulation first, then on heating system.
There are some pumps that work at -70. There are also some pumps that work at +70. There are however no pumps that work at both +70 and -70. This is why you should always buy one in a local store and never from ebay or amazon or wherever else on the internet. It sure can be more expensive, but at least you can be sure you're buing the right one for your local climate.
How much do you pay for gas in Canada? In the UK it is generally ⅕th the price of electricity so no way a heat pump can compete with an efficient gas boiler.
@@goury I assume by ten times more efficient you mean a cop of ten. I have never heard of a heat pump that can go that high, especially in real world conditions where 3 seems to be more typical.
@@goury That is complete bullshit. The max COP you get out of a heat pump is 3, modern gas boilers are near 100% efficient. Since UK electric is nearly 10 times the price of gas, that means a gas boiler costs ONE THIRD as much to run as a heat pump. . . I know, I fit them, then we come back in winter to 'upgrade' them with a gas boiler.
I have been fitting Heat Pumps for 25 years, and yes they have there limitations. A lot of what has been said in this video is correct, however if designed and selected properly a Heat Pump will work and be efficient. I have had to rectify many systems due to poor design and the end user has been poorly advised. We are fitting loads of Air to Air Heat Pumps ( Air Conditioning units ) that also cool for £1200. In some cases they are the sole heat source, others the existing heating remains and is used as a top up. As with most things there is a middle ground ie not all Heat Pumps are bad and not all are good. People out there need to apply there own scrutiny and common sense when listening to sales people.
I have two air to air heat pumps fitted, an older Daikin and a newer Mitsubishi Ecocore. I also have undertile heating fitted throughout most of the house (the electric mat style not water pipes). When I bought the property eleven years ago the Daikin was the sole heat source for the property, and while it heated the air in the lounge and dining room, once you opened the door to the hall to get heat down to the bedrooms the lounge became quite cool. The second problem was that when you opened either of the doors (there are two ranchsliders in the lounge), all the heat seemed to disappear out the door, a problem when you have a cat. The other issues were the noise and dust. Now the undertile heating, rather like a radiator provides background heat that is silent and doesn't leave the house when the door is opened (no to the same extent at least), and heats the whole property. We rarely use the heat pump for heating, probably a couple of times a year only, but regularly run both for cooling, having one in the bedroom is the best thing we have done, and the Ecocore is quiet enough that you can sleep with it on. If I was still in the UK I would be maintaining my gas central heating but would look at adding a heatpump for the A/C element.
I'm sure you are right but as Roger said if your house is super insulated then a heat pump will work fine but we live in the real world and unless we are going to knock down all the older houses and build new ones at a time when the building trade cant keep up with the current demand its not going to happen.
@@martinasher8705 Walls are rarely the issue. As long as they're brick or stone and thick enough they will hold heat reasonably well. Majority of heat losses come from poorly insulated roofs/attics and old doors and windows. If you fix those your heating bills will reduce significantly. Whether it's worth the investment depends on the expected cost return of the initial investment but the prices of electricity/fuel will only go up, the insulation will reduce your bills for years to come.
Hi Stuart, I am doing comparisons of ASHPs to gas boilers in existing homes for my university dissertation, would there be any chance you could complete my questionnaire when its ready? Thanks
I am in complete agreement on 'Heat?' Pumps! The other thing you mentioned Heated Jackets. People these days seem to think that the house should be hot enough for just a t-shirt in the winter. Growing up we always wore jackets in the house during cold weather, few houses at that time had central heating. Perhaps we are all getting a bit soft!!
_"People these days seem to think that the house should be hot enough for just a t-shirt in the winter."_ *AND?? As long as I pay for what I choose to use I should damn well get it!* And btw, this is 20 bloody 24, *not* 1924 (wearing a jacket inside during cold weather... give me a break!
@@marcus577 adblue is seventy three percent distilled water then put in your urea, probably as good if you peed in there, just a matter of time before they find its either harmful to humans or the environment, but by then the millions would have been made, so that's fine!!.
Thanks Roger, I was seriously looking at this technology last week....then TODAY I see your predictions coming true. Another big push to encourage scrapping the gas boilers, after recently 'adjusting' the gas prices.
it is more important for the Authorities to hammer Russias gas export profits, anything else is secondary. Just like how the EU says we should have renewable energy from solar panels but then slap a 71% import tax on Chinas solar panels in order to make their own producers competitive
@@dingopisscreek My gas per KWh is costing me 4p, my electricity is costing me 24p, so everything else being equal, I need a heat pump with a X6 efficiency just to break even. Such a heat pump does not exist at this time and they have a long way to go to make gas as expensive as electricity.
A good friend of mine with 45 year refrigeration experience told me that refrigeration and low cost don't come together when we were discussing air to water heating systems, I do believe him as any advise I received from him was always on the money.
Just remember this one rule. If the product requires a salesman to come to your door to hawk it, that means its not very good. If a product is good, you will most likely hear about it from word of mouth and getting an appointment will be difficult, because they are too busy, no salesman will be required.
@@KeithCarmichaelInFL That has to do more with the cost, not the demand. Nobody has offered me any tax breaks for buying a gas stove or driving a regular combustion engine car, but there are incentives for buying a hybrid, or at least used to be, not sure if there still is. Don't get me wrong, i like hybrids, but would never get an all-electric car as my only vehicle. Not a smart idea at all., even if there was a huge monetary incentive. And for no money would i ever use heated air as my primary heat source LOL
@@weignerleigner3037 You do realize that my response wasn't even true. Not only do O & G not really get a subsidy, but it's all mostly a shell game to throw money down to other interests? But, it's hilarious that you fell right into that one and defended it without a clue anyway! Thanks!
I live in Switzerland in an old, poorly insulated Swiss chalet. I insulated it and installed a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating. It's now draft free, cheap to run, and as almost all Swiss electricity in Switzerland is hydro-electric it's CO2 free. UK friends love to visit in the winter because my house is so comfortable. I hate to visit UK homes in the winter because they're so horribly insulated.
@@ltjuglans194 Actually, the price of electricity in Switzerland is a little higher than the UK. France is quite a bit cheaper. Switzerland is pretty close to the European average.
@@davidellis2021 my point is, that nuclear power is one of the cheapest and with very stable fuel prices, unlike any other energy source. I don't know the energy mix of both countries, but probably France has much higher percentage of nuclear in their mix, than Swiss.
Lots of people are unaware a heatpump system requires bigger pipes and bigger radiators so installation costs will be much higher than the heat exchanger/pump unit alone. Like most government initiatives (all parties), this has been thought through in a very half baked way
@@jankoodziej877 Seen a lot of UFH retro-fits - some were done well and some were a bad joke. As you say, new buildings makes sense. The Nordics designed their buildings properly 50 years ago for their environments so these systems aren't really suitable for UK market.
I spent 15 or 20mins researching heat pumps and then I find you. You are the only view In my search results that had a negative or opposing view. It's almost like a algorithmic conspiracy that I am shown only 1 view point on a search result. 🧐 I have in floor heating with a nat gas boiler in northern alberta. I see my government in Canada pushing these heat pumps, hence my interest. Whenever I see government intervention into anything I have skepticism. Reading all the pros and benefits of heat pumps and seeing nothing negative must trick a lot of people to make bad decisions. I'll stick with my reliable natural gas for heating and hot water. I'm actually considering at the moment to remove my electric stove and put in natural gas😅
I would need to see a cost analysis to believe what is claimed in the video. There are plenty of videos where such costs are analyzed. I have not seen any that backs the OP's claims.
The reason for the stressing of insulation is due to the differences in how heat pumps supply heating. The price difference between a 5KW gas boiler and a 10KW boiler is relatively small, but is significant in HPs, so the cost of initial install is much less if you can reduce your heating needs. If you ignore equipment costs, sure, just buy a massive 17KW HP for your cottage, but it makes more sense to insulate first whatever your heat source.
True...but that's far from being even as easy as easier said than done. I told my landlord that the winter before last would be the last winter I'd have an ugly wood pile outside of the workshop because I'd be insulating the building and putting propane heaters in. Well...I did a crap load of insulating but when it comes to something that had no insulation to begin with insulating it means a major construction project, tearing out drywall and such. The building I'm talking about has auto repair equipment all over the damn place! Just moving stuff to get ladders in there to insulate the ceiling is nearly impossible. And I'll tell you this, if you have one area that you simply can't thoroughly insulate, you're screwed! The cold air will suck up a crap load of propane and you'll be wishing the wood stove was back. I told him this winter I'd be heating with wood for as long as I live here and work here. If that's a problem, tell me know, I'll move out. He said, "can you put a tarp over it in the summer?" LOL I will still work at insulating but the next project that needs to happen is a small walk in door so that I don't loose so much heat when I open the overhead door to walk in. I'm still going to loose all my heat when the door opens though. So what's going to happen? I'll use both wood heat and natural gas but I refuse to use propane. It's FAR more expensive than natural gas which he uses in the house. Let me tie into the gas and I'd rip the stove out tomorrow! But "no, I don't want to do that" he says. You can't win! LOL
Because we all are living in nicely done excel sheet of perfect computer model.... Why are all climate change celebrities are NOT selling their oversized mansions yet? Why they still use private jets? Do they drive electric VW UP or big gas guzzling SUV? Do they eat bugs or exotic meats? There, open your eyes.
@@myself342 that's a bunch of non sequitur. Excel spreadsheet or not, the efficiency of heat pumps beats gas boilers, the data is quite clear, if you disagree, please cite your sources rather than merely intimating and insinuating. Why are rich people doing what they want and being hypocritical... because people are hypocritical, that doesn't alter the efficiency of a technology.
@@LudvigIndestrucable I saw somebody have to put together about 8 kW of solar just to run his heat pump. Doesn’t sound like a plan for most people, when you need another 15 kW of solar to run your house. Where are the savings?
Yea.i own a hvac company and been installing alot of them .they are absolutely great.the new heatpumps are way more efficient then gas or oil,this guy i promise you doesn't know what he is talking about. Trust me.heatpumps 25 years ago were junk for cold climate but 2022 heatpumps there is nothing better.
The numbers Roger states regarding efficiency aren't realistic. Here's evidence of how they work when we'll installed.. ua-cam.com/video/QLGANlbqIFY/v-deo.html
Greetings from Scandinavia, or Finland to be more precise. Thanks for pointing out the problem that the UK has with the houses (yes, I've been to the UK and witnessed it first hand..). It's not really a problem with the heat pump technology. I have now had an 8 kW air to water monoblock Fujitsu and radiators for about 5 years. It works just as I calculated. Enough down to about -12 C in my 130 m^2 house, below that I burn wood chips. The pump was about 3,5 ke and about 1 ke for installation (I did what I could, basically it was just the water pipes what the plumber did). It's installed on a separate concrete slab on rubber insulators below my kitchen window, if you are really quiet in the kitchen you can barely hear the fan running. Condensed water is run underground accompanied by a heating cable to avoid freezing. Yearly average temperature around here is about 5 C. Before the pump electricity consumption was about 10 000 kWh/year plus about 20 m^3 of wood chips for the winter. With the pump the electricity is the same, but I use about 0-5 m^3 of chips. That -12 C limit does not mean that the pump stops or anything, but after that the house starts getting colder. But still if it's -20 C during the night and -5 C during the day, the house stays perfectly warm. I didn't do this to save money, just to save chips and my time/labour. So far the pump has been pretty much start and forget and the house is nice and warm for most part of the year. Around -10 C the COP drops to around 2, but around 0 it's in the region of 3 without much optimization. In general I wouldn't jugde the pumps, you just have to know the limits and pick the right product for the right application, this is where most get it wrong. Sure you can't run 65 C water to the radiators at -20 C, but that kind of a house shouldn't have an air to water pump to begin with, an air to air on the other hand would help.
Interesting, sounds like great news. However now burning wood is being damned as a bigger pollutant than that caused by vehicle emissions! In 50 years time we might have saved the planet but we will all be bloody miserable..
I think he was highlighting the effects of negative balance points in each conditioned space. A Heat pump thats exactly sized for the space, may not account for all drafts that affect the balance point. Which will fail in comfort.
@@lifesforliving4929 in here finland we have this called "varaavatakka" . I have electric heating , Nunnauuni woodstove and Nunnauuni freblace. Nunnauuni have made thees wood heating very ecofriedly becoos stone that have been used absodr heat for 24 hours. So i can save big borsion of my electric bill and i am foresmacine worker i can get wood very cheap when i need it.
@@janne47pro Interesting, but here in Britain there is a growing surge of feeling that log burners however efficient they might be and open fires burning wood are major polluters and that they should be banned. I was always told that burning wood was no more harmful than letting the wood naturally rot but now it has been discovered that the particles given off during burning are more harmful. I love open fires, log burners and bonfires but I can see that all of these are in the future going to either be strictly controlled in the UK or stopped altogether. It can help massively if well seasoned wood is burnt, not that that has not been allowed to dry properly but I do not think sufficient controll over that can be achieved to reduce the risk. Also, it seems that people in town and cities are the ones who most object to open fires and log burners because they might live close to someone with either.
Having installed an air source heat pump 4 years ago - making sure the insulation was upgraded - I'll say this over the oil burner it replaced: 1/ the bills are lower 2/ the heat is more consistent and even 3/ the noise is lower 4/ the stink of the oil burner fumes as you walk past has been replaced by the normal smells of the countryside. When the other oil burner is replaced it'll be with a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating - even more efficient.
Gas prices have exploded across Europe - partly due to lack of supply from Russia, as well as an increase in demand around the world. This shortage has increased the price of gas, which is also having a knock-on effect on electricity prices. Russia invaded Ukraine seven months after this video was filmed, though. Prices have gone up, yes - but not solely for the reasons he states.
When he says "They've got to bring the price of gas up", this happens through taxation, not through some shady conspiracy that you don't know about. The price of gas has gone up mainly because our biggest supplier turned out to be a bit of a shit.
First of all I would like to see these pumps installed in all the homes of government ministers, MPs and government offices. When they have been tested for say 5 years and they are all happy, then perhaps we could fit them in our houses. We should not be made Guinea pigs for environmental experiments that could cost households a fortune. Also maintenance of these systems is very expensive, as you have to hire a specialist HVAC engineer to service them.
Its a money making scam. The government says it will remove the levy on electricity, once you are reliant on electricity for everything, they will add that levy on again
You have been guinea pigs for at least 40 years while the fossil fuel industry KNEW we would have global warming, and that the consequences would be grave. You have been lied to year after year after year while politicians protected the fossil fuel industry and told us that we were fear mongering. You are stupid enough to ask for politicians to have them for 5 years before you would consider fitting a heat pump, while you disregard the decades of use all over the world, where millions of homes use heat pumps that actually work.
@@Traitorman.Con.14th.Sec3 But not fitted in the UK. Also you are basing your beliefs on a false presentation of science, which I believe in strongly. Question; What melted the Ice Ages before any industrialisation? How is it that the Sahara used to be covered by trees? How is it that remains of tropical plants can be found in the UK? The Earth is a volatile entity that has changed and is always changing, why do we think the natural changes have stopped just for our convenience? There is no immediate climate crisis, it is a political and media led religious crusade. We should insulate, insulate, insulate, then fit the best and most suitable heating system for our building, whatever it is. If anyone thinks that all the world - especially China is going to follow all this ‘save the planet’ stuff, then I feel sorry for them!
@@petercollins7848 And how is it that you cannot fathom the dire problems ahead? Haven’t you seen the graphs? Haven’t you noticed the speed of the increase? The accelleration? Is it so difficult to understand that Sahara didn’t just happen overnight but over thousands of years , but the vast problems we are facing now happened during the last few decades?
I replace compressors on heat pumps all day long. An 11k machines compressor cost £1000 and an 8kw is £800. On a r290 machine the gas is cheap and you can get 70c flow temps but you should only need 60c max
@@ungrim97 some boilers do have excellent reliability. Of course you can choose cheap crap, but if you stick to Vaillant, Worcester Bosch or Viesmann, you can expect many years of reliable service with no hassles.
@@flatfoot only 1.2 COP @ 75 but it can do it cheaper than an immersion if you insist on a legionella cycle once a week for an hour. The rest of the time you can do DHW at 52 c for a good balance of cop verses usability. A usual family empties there stored hot water at least once a day so legionella protection would be provided by that alone. People always find objections to new technologies and standards. People objected to having to wear seatbelts at one time. I'm not sure if Roger is a climate change denier or a big oil shill but heat pumps in one form or another are the future for domestic heating and most of the obstacles that exist for retrofit to old houses will be overcome.
I can understand how heat pumps are not a good economical swap for boiler systems (popular in Great Britain) because all of the heat exchangers will need to be much larger. Heat pumps work great for under floor heating. In the United states they work good because most homes are forced air.
I've had a heat pump for five years and it's been a disaster from day one. It is not cheaper and it has repeatedly broken down, leaving me without heat or hot water for weeks while the engineers try to figure out if it's the water pressure, the frequency signal from the thermostat to the pump, the pump itself or a leak in the pipes. Absolute nightmare!
@@rogerphelps9939 It's Panasonic. Is Panasonic a rubbish make? I don't know but their heat pump is! I sit here without heat or hot water yet again. This time they think it's the filter, the system needs to be flushed, which will take a full day. Lucky me, eh?
As a retired heating engineer I know a little on this subject. Heat pumps do work! But only in the right kind of house’s they are the ones that have very very high levels of insulation. A little experiment is to turn your gas boiler down to 45-50 degrees centigrade on a very cold day and see if your house is kept warm. This is because that’s about the temperature that a heat pump works at..
The issue is not with Heat Pumps, the issue is with the illusion that all things must be in context. Your correct better insulation makes a big difference, as does the places you live. I have a decent insulated home and live in a climate that sees lows of about -17C. Using my heat pump I have reduced my winter heating bills by almost 45%. If you live in a much colder environment and/or have a poorly insulted home then your not going to see the same levels. So in essence your correct, if you have a bad setup for a heat pump it will suck. But if you have a fairly modern home and so not see DEEP cold, the heat pump is great.
A good heatpump that is correct instaled gives you 5cop on a good day and 2-3cop when its cold and i mean realy cold and i live in sweden witch is realy cold but it sounds like your biggest problem is a lack of good building construction.. you sould realy try some insulation..
@@juslitor No, because you need 5kw of gas for 5kw of heat while a heat pump will give you 15kw of heat. Modern heat pumps can actually go 7-11 to 1. That means gas would have to cost 1/5th or less per kwh to break even with a heat pump.
@@excitedbox5705 But what is the cost of 5kW of gas versus 5kW of electricity? If you burn gas to make electricity, it will take about 12kW of gas to make 5kW of electricity. That's due to a law of physics known as Carnot inefficiency. I think 5kW of gas is going to cost a lot less than 5kW of electricity.
@@incognitotorpedo42 You are correct about the conversion efficiency. You are comparing quantity with cost though. The energy company doesn't charge you 12kw of gas they charge you 5kw of electricity. It all depends on the energy source when comparing how green but with a COP of 5 or even 3 (at -20C) you would still be coming out ahead. I actually looked at some charts after posting and the expected savings in $ on your energy bill is 60% or higher depending on if you add hot water in addition to heating and 80% for new homes built around maximizing efficiency.
Thanks a bunch Roger. Young plumber was pushing the idea of HP and your video of old school truth and common sense has just saved me an enormous amount of grief. Thank you.
I live in Tennessee. I designed and built my house 31 years ago as a passive solar using a heat pump. Overall I’ve been very happy with the results. During the summer the unit runs much more than in the winter. So it actually cost us more to cool than to heat. The difference is about half as much to heat due to how well the sun heats the house, providing it’s sunny out. But I have gas logs in the fireplace, and they actually can hear the house nicely.
Mike My house is similar to your with passive heat. I replaced old ac unit with 37 seer one. It's big for an ac unit BUT much larger coils and cycles less so cost to run is far less than older ones. Paied for itself in a few years. Cost little to run.
The other thing not mentioned is that, rather like the storage heaters of old, they need to be on in anticipation all the time. My daughter has one and for the house to be warm when she gets home from work it is on all day heating an empty house. This means also trying to predict the weather and wasting electricity. There’s a long time lag from cold so not efficient in that respect. The electricity consumption is frightening.
Here in Texas where the climate in winter is mild; the electric utilities hit us with very high monthly bills ( U$A 300 to 400 for a 3 bedroom 2 bath home); 1500 sq. ft.
And my electricity provider just increased my price per kWh by 33%, despite them buying all of their electricity from solar+wind+nuclear. And when the govt sees the loss of tax revenue from gasoline and diesel gallons dwindling, how will they recoup it from motorists in vehicles that are powered by electricity...? Hmmm, let me think...
Roger you have got it in one, I have been involved with gas and oil heating for the last 45 years and this technology is very much up to date and well developed ! Heat pumps will be a long time developing the high temperatures required for home heating.
Manufacture bluff heat pump will cost you more compress last about 7 to 9 years condenser fan 7 years service every gas charging if leak during very cold weather you need additional heater some are all ready fitted. Climate change is a part of political games
@@leod-sigefast I've got one. Absolutely hopeless for the British climate. They can work quite well where the temperatures rarely go below 10C. In a cold British winter they are pathetic. They absolutely can't be retrofitted to existing heating systems. Radiators need to be 3x as big.
@@bitdropout We Swedes have a very tall country, where Scania has a climate not very different from the British; and also Norrbotten, with a climate very, very, different from yours. Fortunately you don't live there in your British house, even if I smile at the very thought... By the way, heat pumps function all over Sweden. That's because we are a rather cold, but technically gifted people, with quite a lot of common sense, which make us reject BS talk very fast.
@@n.g.h.calmarena7013 I thought that in Sweden Ground source heat pumps with bore holes are usually used not air source? Your houses are also very thermally efficient unlike houses in the UK. Heatpumps require a constant temperature to work effectively which is why a 200m deep borehole works. The air temperature in the UK varies vastly throughout the day this causes mayhem with the control strategy of an air source heat pump. I have a great respect for Sweden and it's forward thinking regarding climate change. On a different note, for such a small country, you produce some of world's best ice hockey players🏒
Back in 2012 I had an enquiry from a potential customer about installing a heat pump. I contacted two heat pump manufacturers, one said they were unsuitable for retrofitting old buildings because it is difficult to get the level of insulation required and the other said don't even think about replacing a gas or oil boiler with an HP as it would upset the customer when they got the electric bill. There is a barn conversion a few yards from me with a ground source HP that works fairly well for heating but it has at least 30cm of Cellotex in roof, walls and floors and a heat requirement of less than 12kw. The DHW is a different story that needs an immersion heater to boost the temperature. I believe the equipment cost was about £15k in 2007 plus installation cost.
I have had a similar response from manufacturers, they can't, hand on heart endorse them over gas but the recent rise in gas prices has moved the goal posts.
Colin, I agree with what you said. My up to date quotes are bonkers, well over £40k for a 19KW system. Without UFH, rads or any of the heating plumbing.
@@abbersj2935 How many properties have access to an electrical supply greater than 12Kw our village 36 properties 2 farms and a livery yard run off a 50KVA transformer. not much scope for expansion.
@@colinsandford4500 I agree, luckily at the beginning I had 3 phase installed. The pole was at the edge of my property, they charged less than a grand to connect up to my new electric meter cubicle. The cable from there to the house (60M of 25mm 5 core) was £800, plus groundworks costs. I've actually already bought and fitted (Some years ago, though not connected) a 45KW commercial LPG boiler, and was rethinking going over to a heat pump. The costs are prohibitive though and will probably just continue with the LPG bulk tank install.
You must use far less power where you are. My residence here in the US has 240V/ 200A service. That is 48KVA, for my house alone. I never use anywhere close to that, but it is available. The pole pig feeds a number of other residences, it must have at least 200 KVA capacity. @@colinsandford4500
Thank you for your video. I'm just learning about them. My home is all electric. There is no gas where I live, in the mountains of California. I use a fireplace and electric radiator heaters. The electric rates here have more than doubled in the past few years. Now, the utility company is telling us about heat pumps as a less expensive way to heat in winter. We already use air conditioners in the summer. When I watched your video, as well as another from the U.K., my immediate thought was, I wonder why they automatically use a water reservoir and water radiators, if they cost thirty thousand pounds to install. As you said in your video. I'm writing this two years after you recorded this. So my question might be obsolete. I assume it's because the radiator infrastructure is already pervasive. Common. The most obvious and already intact system. Here, the first thing that is presented are split vent systems, that blow air. You mount them on the wall. But that is more of a single zone solution. Maybe the water tank best serves a whole house.
We lived in the USA for over 25 years, and owned a couple of houses with air-source-heatpump gas-furnace hybrid systems. These work by using the heatpump when it's more efficient than the gas-furnace and via-visa-versa. Also, these are homes heated by forced-air which is common in the USA. It's very unfortunate that the UK housing stock is so poorly insulated, that's probably the first step any home owner should undertake in terms of bang-for-the-buck. With so much rental property in the UK there's not enough insentive for landlords to upgrade insulation., just my opinion. Really enjoyed this down to earth rant and I have to agree there's bound to be some leeches looking to make a killing out of this.
@@simonpeggboard4004 with new insulation Tech. getting cheaper, and more efficient.. all type of house are successfully. My House is from 1950.. Insulated by using a New foam siding... If home owner become more educated about what is available.. A lot of people will find there is a lot of inexpensive Alternative... And Home owners need to make better.
@@jwetPouOu Cheap and efficient doesn't solve the inherent damp problems from the original design. Obviously a complete overhaul can fix any problem, but cost and planning laws often prohibit such actions.
@@simonpeggboard4004 To stop the damp you need bigger gaps under the doors of the rooms you block the air-vents in (& maybe a fanlight). The Air vents (up on the walls) were designed to stop the build up of carbon monoxide back in the day.
This is mostly complaints against older ones and against air to water heat pumps. Modern air source mini splits have a COP of 3-5 and some keep that down to 5F. As hard as it can be insulation is key, upgraded windows and putting it in the attic does a ton.
Also remember the COP of a gas boiler (0.8) vs heat pumps COP of 3-5...Some people just are against progress in any way and form, but they shouldnt come up with conspiracies to pull even more less intelligent people towards them.
@@jokellus3236 the really good gas furnace to air are 95%. Which means even with a low COP is better to burn it in a power plant than to heat your home directly
Absolutely spot on Roger. At last someone with skill and knowledge is telling it exactly how it is. Great presentation backed by facts and good old honest truth. Cheers 👍
Use new laptops, mine some crypto. Seriously though, I use some good old 2070's to heat my country house and it is cheaper than a heat pump this way because the price is negative. You can't beat that with anything. Initial cost is considerably higher though.
Sadly soon when the wind don’t blow and we’ve given up gas your pc goes off! We are going to be sat in the dark, shivering, and cooking quorn over a vegan candle🤣🤣 Idiots have taken control.
I do find it funny that there needs to be some sort of government conspiracy to make gas more expensive - it's running out in the North Sea, we have to import more, and more of it from further way - of course its going to get more expensive.
@@edc1569 Where do you think electric comes from.... In the UK 70% comes from burning gas. If you think you are saving the earth then you are not. Generating electric and transmitting it is about 50% efficient... Burning gas in your home is near 100% efficient.
This man is spilling facts. Here is my situation: I have geo-thermal system installed, not talking about recently made popular heat pumps, we are talking about best of the best environment friendly option. The house size is 5,000 Sq.ft. I live in southern B.C, Canada (Near Vancouver), In my area cost per unit of electricity is $0.14. My bill per two months cycle is around $1,200 from December to February. That is $600/month. I switched to natural gas last year. I also got rid of my eclectic boiler and now its on demand natural gas hot water, now my natural gas bill in harsh winter was $210/month and my Electricity went to $125/month. Now my new combined monthly bill is $335. Those who question this video are doomed. I gave you my story, i 1000% agree with this gentleman.
Same, just about to get slapped with a $600 electricity bill this month due to heat pump running 100% duty cycle. With the gas unit would have only cost $70 tops.
Hi Roger, I've found several of your videos very helpful - but I've got to take you to task on this one. You're right about several things, and wrong about others. And a lot has happened in the 2 years since you made this video - it has become clearer that we must stop burning gas to heat our homes, and perhaps heat pumps have improved. I had a heat pump installed 15 months ago - 7 months after I'd moved in. The decision was simple for me - the house was built 13 years ago and had reasonably good insulation and partial underfloor heating. But there was no heating in the bathrooms, and heating and hot water was via an electric boiler. Even before the Ukraine War electricity prices were soaring, and it was unaffordable. I live in rural Scotland and there is no natural gas available, I didn't want (or have space for) an oil boiler, and Scottish government grants for heat pumps are more generous than in England. The heat pump has made our home massively more comfortable, and we have radiators in the bathrooms and a plinth heater in part of the kitchen where there is no underfloor heating - all linked into the underfloor heating system and driven directly from the ASHP (and not via a hot water "heat store" tank as you describe). The domestic hot water is heated to 50C, with a weekly anti-legionella cycle taking it over 60C - all directly from the ASHP (no immersion heater input). The system reports an overall SCoP of 3.74 (my own calculation is 3.76 - heating being 4.01 and DHW 2.68) - so in the northeast of Scotland, over the year, I'm getting nearly 4x more heat out than the electricity being put in (and last winter we had a cold December and January). I calculate (from the ofgen price cap) that our 3-bedroom detached bungalow costs a few hundred pounds less to heat each year than the “typical medium” house in the UK using gas & electricity. And it's quieter than the fridge. But you are right that this will only work in a well insulated house - so we'd better get on insulating older properties (maybe with multifoil insulation? - ua-cam.com/video/ql_I3m-xbNU/v-deo.html&ab_channel=SkillBuilder). And you do need to be sure to get a good heat pump installer - some of the companies I spoke to really didn't give me any confidence. And a third thing: if you get a heat pump, you need to understand it works completely differently from traditional central heating - it's low-temperature "slow" heating that should be on in the "background" all the time, even when you go out for the day - the ASHP controller and room thermostats should control everything.
I think we agree on all of this but without underfloor heating, good insulation and draught proofing it is not as good. I am happy to revisit this subject but Heat Geeks have not come back to us with an installation in an old house. They said they would but maybe they fear a hatchett job.
I'm in the trade and it seems pretty obvious that the first thing we should be doing is installing insulation into properties to make them as energy efficient as possible. This grant can go along way to reducing current heating bills, thus emissions, so that when this new technology is law, the majority of houses are already to up spec. It's like trying to run before you can crawl!
Save money ? A pipe dream ! Don't you remember when we were encouraged to go LED ? I did, reduced my lighting costs by ten fold. Funny thing though, the electric companies put their prices up by 16% and they've now gone up again. Do you really think the suppliers will let their profits slip?
I've noticed that the UK doesn't seem to insulate the outside of houses, when you can't fit insulation into homes you can add 4cm of insulation outside and then render over it. They do this in Germany and it works well.
@@michaelstimpson1137 I guess it depends where about's in the UK. Places which have houses made out of sandstone (Such as Bath) would not be an option plus the designs of a lot of houses make it very expensive to retro-fit. Like most things it would apply to some but not be the answer for all.
@@michaelstimpson1137 we still build double cavity walled houses. The cavity has to be ventilated to prevent damp. This removes almost all exterior insulation benefits. The only way is to empty a room and fit insulated plaster boards. Works beautifully but costly to do (why heat eighteen inches of stone wall?)
My 1930's built semi has loft insulation, the walls insulated and the sub floor has been insulated and struggles to keep warm in winter using a gas combi boiler, so a heat pump will not have a chance of adequately heating the home. Great, informative video Roger - I have just subscribed to the Channel (just saved me several thousand pounds).Cheers mate!
Maybe recheck the Insulation in the Loft it's recommended that the New standard is 30cms for same... if you have not a lot in the loft, you could be leaking a lot of heat straight through same... even having the Rads power Flushed or firstly even, JUST rebalanced your Rads might help....giving better heat transfer across those fellows...
Also, are your windows double insulated, and how are the walls insulated? Our previous house was the same age, single glazed, and our gas boiler heated it no probs.
My house is getting on…..about 400 yrs old! Walls are granite, 80cm thick. I put in (Myself!) underfloor heating and a Frisquet combi gas boiler 👍🏻 I also put in a wood burner in the chimney 20 kw for when it’s really 🥶 and can maintain 21+ degrees on those evenings in front of a glowing 🔥. Daytime I find woolly jumpers work just fine!…. Politician’s…. Leave me alone!
I've heard that there is a system that uses solar energy to grow fuel and then you can move that fuel into your home and use it to produce heat exactly when you want it. Servicing is done once a year with a long brush up the chimney
thanks Mark. well said. we have always heated with wood (white poplar) out here on the farm in western Manitoba. And the trees are growing faster than we can cut them down so sustainability is not an issue. But I don't think this scales up to towns or cities.
@@johnsharonwhitaker9242 amen. Lots of people have wood burners in the UK, but they kick out a lot of harmful particles in towns & cities. Not gonna lie and say they're horrible or that they don't make things feel homely, but they don't scale. I frequently smell them when I'm walking around my city. My gran & grandad ran coal & wood fires. It feels utterly nuts that we're heading back to ancient, dirty technology. If you're out in the sticks then knock yourself out, but it's not the way forward for town/city living.
Brilliant vid for UK. I live in a listed house, 1m thick stone walls, it's a complete nightmare. What will happen to all the listed property in uk, or rather their occupants.....?
@Charles Vane ~I wouldn’t dream of telling him how Inflation works and how Fiat currency is the biggest fraud in human history.~ I know it's a fraud, but so effing what? I'd rather people realise how big corporations have taken effective control of government, for the sole purpose to increase wealth inequality.
Really pleased to have watched this, given me a small insight as to what a heat pump does and how inefficient it would be in my old Victorian house. Nice one👍
@@robuk3723 well that’s a helpful comment(not), let me see, stamp duty, solicitors fees, surveys, logistics of moving, finding another house, re- establishing employment, just for a heat pump system that probably will probably be obsolete in a few years when something better comes along, remember government advice on Diesel engines? Maybe you can afford all the above, but I can’t.
I’m a heating engineer and I would never install the air source heat pump in an old house doesn’t make financial sense… It only works in brand new developments with high levels of insulation.. but once again costs tend to spiral out of control because in these new efficient homes you need to start to run some form of ventilation system with heat recovery.. homes need to be ventilated to ensure you do not have issues in the future with mould or damp areas in your house due to the home being well insulated. So to be honest you’re better off trying to spend that money in increasing the energy efficiency of the fabric of the building..
Yes mate. Its not talked about enough the need for some form of managed ventilation when you upgrade insulation. Nearly every room needs significant work and making good! The cost per house is massive!
Just pleased there are some people who make sense and are impermeable to the forced marketing wank. Pisses me off that the monthly gas rag is a marketing brochure for this technology and when I pulled my inspector on it some years ago he replied “it’s the future”. Well Boris wants to evolve this technology so we can sell it internationally. We’re the guinea pigs paying for the privilege which will make somebody wealthy. I hope they can succeed with Hydrogen production.
I live in Canada and we no not use them . Gas forced bown air furnaces is our system . Its dark at 5pm there is no sun to get heat from on cold nights . This thing can extract heat from -15c outside air?
Of course it can, thermodynamics doesn't care if you find it cold. As long as the température is above the absolute zero (-273°C) you can transfer energy. 2/3 of houses in Norway are using heat pumps.
Person from Scandinavia here. We have had heat pumps as the de-facto standard heating option for 10-15 years in Scandinavia, which means that almost all houses nowdays run on heat pumps. People are happy with them, and they work well and are cost efficient. So I don’t undestand the argument with low temperatures and bad efficiency in the UK - we only have such a problem during the coldest winter days that never happen in the UK . With respect to the tap water, it is just simply a imagenative problem that you can’t combine energy efficient tap water, comfort and legionella-safe. Come visit us here in Scandinavia and you’ll see. I fully acknowledge that British houses are not well insulated, but that means that A) houses shall be insulated B) the heat pump needs to be of greater dimension. It’s sad to see how this video builds distrust to techonlogy and authorities.
I am curious what type of system is connected to your Heat pump..? Is it water.. ie underfloor piping or Radiators.. or.. Air warming like the American 'Central air' with lots of box ducting. Your country (assuming Sweden) generally has an overall yearly lower temperature than us in the UK and you have designed and build property (and indeed your infrastructure) to cope with it.. We are not so organised here and any extreme weather tends to flummox us and everything shuts down.. Also, UK houses dont tend to have suitable places to mount the main pump box and the fan can be surprisingly noisy. I think newbuilds are best suited to benefit from Heatpump tech where the property layout can be re-designed.. Alternatively , put it in the bike shed that we were forced to build..
@@embryonica In general modern houses have the heat pumps connected to floor heating, while older houses re-uses the radiators that were already installed before the era of heat pumps. I acknowledge that the placement of heat pumps might be trickier in areas with dense buildings/small yards, but often it can be solved.
Heat pumps are worthless in cold weather. Heat pumps barely work at 50 degrees. You mistake your opinions as facts. My kin installs heat pumps for 50 years. People love to brag, I got a magical heat pump.
Great well educated Rant thanks Roger. I’ve heard nothing good about these pumps over recent years, very expensive and not nearly as warm as the traditional gas boiler.
There is a lot of false numbers going round about heat pumps, one of those numbers is the cost... On the radio I keep hearing the figure £10k, that is BS, the minimum you are looking at is £20k and then you will need underfloor, so you are looking much closer to £50k - £90k for a realistic system. One big thing I havn't heard anyone mention yet, is replacement... Your boiler needs replacing every 10-20 years at a cost of £2k ... Your heatpump system won't last any longer, but costs £20k to replace.
@@cuckingfunt9353 You must be referring to ground source heat pumps. My son put in an air source unit that cost about $1300 Cnd. This is a new house, 1000 sq. ft., super insulated. Eastern Ontario winters get pretty cold. His total electric bill for heat, lights, hot water, etc. for January last year was $200. And the house is warm, and in the summer it is cool.
My first experience of heat pumps was with an 'early adopter' nearly forty years ago, and they said the same thing then - " It's not so good when its cold outside and you need it most". Little changes!
@@jrisner6535 Im afraid you have to accept for a lot of situations these pumps do not work. Certainly not in all the circumstances they are fitted in. Nothing to do with the fitters but more to do with the type of houses or the location of the only available space for the heat pump. I live in a village with old style housing, both thatched and cob walled. Totally useless heating. Do they still qualify for the grant? Of course they do.
Just been quoted £16.900 for air source heat pump installation on a well insulated 1950s bungalow . My next door neighbour has stopped using his air source , and having a vies man combi gas boiler re-installed . It kind of tells the whole story !
these prices are just bonkers for air to air pumps.. what sieze house you got? My grandparent have a 1960's suburban house, used to have direct electricity heating, they installed a air to air heatpump for less then 3000 euros, covering 90% of their heating needs over the year. Their house walls have less then 10cm of insulation, added insulation to the attic for another 2-3000 euros and their heating costs have gone down with 70% that heat pump payed itself off in a few years. Air to air pumps for a 100 sqm house should not cost that much, and in the cases you need bigger pump.. here people tend to buy a second or even third pump for basement or if they got more floors. If your house consist of many rooms, air to air is also less effective. If you got a water radiator system and your house is big or many rooms, air to water is the way to go, or even better geothermal, but more costly investment.
@@JoolsUK price makes more sense then. Is it common with circulating water radiators in UK? Gas heated or oil still common? Here houses between 60- late 80s many houses had direct electricity, giving little options to air to air, specially town and city houses. Clean and cheap power back then 100% hydro and nuclear, we didn't export more then what we didn't need. tax payers built all energy here and now we get to pay insane prices for our own power that is cheap to produce.. something rotten.
I´ve had an air to water heatpump for 12 years. Before that i had an oil burner. With the heatpump I reduced expenses for heating with 50 %. No government money was involved in the installation back then.
I've got a 7kw aircon unit that also heats. In the winter it is great, costs about 30p an hour to run. It doesnt heat the full house, but it heats the room i'm in and the rest of the house a bit. My gas boiler gobbles money, so im more than happy with the heat pump. Oh, and it's great in summer too! Nice cool air when everyone else is opening windows and complaining how hot the house is..
The U.K government is trying to discourage air con units being fitted. The idea is to save energy because we are still a long way off having green electricty so air con will be powered by gas fired power stations.
Was ready to type in a rant about how BS this video was, but then I checked my scandinavian insulated house privileges. You are correct, they work wonders for me, even in -20. And now in the summer I get a cool +20 inside, while it is +30 outside. Heatpumps are highly recommended.
The best way to heat a house using electricity is an air to air heat pump, from the likes of panasonic, floor and wall mounted indoor units, they chuck out serious heat, and can easily heat an old draughty house no problem, and are extremely efficiant, 5 to 1. The best combo, is to have air to air heating, with a separate air to water heatpump heating only your hot water cylinder using a heatpump designed for just that, from the likes of cool energy, that heats the tank up to 60 degrees with no need for a booster element, an then switches off untill the tank temp falls below a set threshold it switches on. Ive been running this system for 7 years now, and its really cheap to run, and cheap and quick to install with zero maintenance, This combined with a few cheap roof mounted grid tie microinverter solar panels is the holy grail, every home should be changing over to this. Using air to water in a retrofit to heat an old house is as roger said a very bad idea. There is really really poor understanding of heat pumps in this country,
@@volf4o how much does geo cost to install in your area? For me, a 12.6KW air-air system for nordic conditions cost $3400 including install, before any incentives (ending up at $2300 iirc) If i were to dig the hole myself, i could have gotten 13KW geo for $14k (12k after incentives) Even ignoring what i did (had $15k, bought air-air and spent rest on solar panels), i'd never recoup that cost in the efficiency difference between the two Might be different in climates where air-air meets large hurldes (like coastal regions where the salt corrodes them) but this is my experience
In the USA and in Canada we have a lot of air conditioners that are only used about 2 months of the year the thing that's needed is for laws banning non reversing air conditioners turning them into heat pumps to heat and cool the house and we need air conditioning technicians who are willing to change over the old one's but no they'd only make 500 dollars more or less for the conversion instead of the over a thousand they make on commission on a new one plus the cost of removing the old one and the installation of the new one well over 2 grand for an hour or two of labor my ac unit probably has 4 months at the most of run time so I'd love to upgrade it love it even more I'f i could add water sourced heating and cooling to it as we have all the heat and cooling we need 15 feet below our feet but I'm not able to find someone to upgrade my old unit
Good old Roger he's passionate about what he does, I know exactly where he's coming from.. we are being fed a load of bull shit and herded like sheep, we are not being told the truth by anyone in any matter of concern regarding money and the planet.
Heat pumps work in Canada down to around -30C. Even here it only occasionally gets that cold during a “cold snap”. Electricity is generated through emission-free hydroelectric power. People may be confused about heat pumps ability to perform in really cold environments but that’s most likely due to early take-up. The technology has vastly improved since then.
In Canada they don't make you get rid of your old heater, and almost nobody uses a boiler to heat their home. When the natural gas heat pumps become more common, I will consider one. Cost estimates are in Ontario you only save money with a heat pump vs natural gas it you can disconnect you gas service to stop paying the administrative fee. Even then it is only a few hundred a year. Not enough to ever pay for the investment. If you have a good southern wall, install a passive heat solar panel and you'll get an instant savings.
I have used heat pump over 18 years now. First one lasted 15 years. I replaced it because newer has much lower temperatule limit and efficiency. I use also fireplace to add warm here. This is in Finland. Where winters are much colder than UK. And houses have proper insulation for the climate. I have no complaints of heat pumps at all. Its cheapest and easiest method of makin warm air inside. We don't use gas for heating here. Those who did were little in trouble because gas was flowing from ruzzia. That changed over night.
How is it emissions free, where do you think our electricity comes from ????? The hole in the wall lol they burn 🔥 fossil fuel to generate the electricity in my Canada so dream on 😃😃🤔😂😉
As you predicted - energy prices especially gas are going through the roof despite having a vast new gas field off Scotland that they wont open up. Go green go Broke.
YEARS ago. I guess your car still performs like a model T with 4hp. Modern heat pumps can hit 11 to 1 COP and 3-5 on a cold day. The energy difference you can achieve is the difference between ambient and the boiling point of the refrigerant, which means you would break even with gas at around -40 degrees C. at a Wet bulb temp of -30C you still achieve a COP of 1.5. It depends on the refrigerant you use, and the boiling point of CO2 is much lower than anything you will see south of the North Pole.
Compelling demonstration. I live in a terraced house and changed my boiler last year, Baxi garanteed 10 years. Cost me under 2k for new boiler and installation. There was no way I would have entertained the idea of a heat pump. There are nearly 7 million terraced houses in the UK where heat pumps just cannot practically be installed for one reason or another apart for the insane price and dubious technology. The noise, the proximity between houses. I try to picture every house with a heat pump in my street. What a nightmare that would be! My plumber told me he recently went to a small house where a heat pump had been installed. He said it looked a complete mess with pipes sticking out everywhere. Just like you said about heat pump engineers who are not trained for this type of work. What a con !
In the US, we had a big push for home insulation before heat pumps became popular. Don't forget your double paned windows! I actually miss oil heat, because the temperature from the grate is nice and toasty.
Here in France all new builds get the grants to install underfloor heating, maximum insulation in the property and heat pumps. I think this is the only real way to get the benefits, on new builds and not retro fitting in older property's.
Really depends how efficient and insulated your individual house is and what climate you're in. My 1950s home in Canada could definitely benefit from a small heat pump. More so for air conditioning in the summer and to lessen the load on my boiler in the winter. No need to go big. About $3000 would do nicely. Just don't take the government handout and keep the backup heating for the really cold nights. 🤷♂️
Been living in Paris region of France since 1999. Back around 2005 long before the current trend for heat pumps we were convinced to install one along with a lot of neighbouring by a door to door salesman. Supposedly from EDF (Electricity de France). It had the classic box outside & one defuser on the wall above the kitchen door. It was sold on the basis that this was what shops had over their entrance doors. You remember when you used to go into the supermarket & walk through a wall of hot air. As many houses in France our house was heated with electric radiator. Very dry heat. This because France has 50 plus nuclear power stations to give it an historical energy independence from the bigger oil producing nations. It also Hy we have a very good electric train network including the TGV. Just the heat pump box cost us 10k€. The subversion scam was setup differently. It was a long term loan. So the heat pump was deemed to reduce your electricity consumption but instead of reducing you bill the savings went to paying off a long term loan for the pump. The installation was done by cowboys we us having to make good the mess. The fans became noicey. You had to leave doors open around the house for the heat to circulate. Then when we came to move house a couple of years later the long term loan was still years from paying off. Something that you could hope to pass onto the buyer. So essentially the new owners got what ever small benefit there was to be had from the hear pump & even that was debatable & we continued paying off the loan for nearly 10 years after moving. Any loan is an issue in France as everything is taken into account by the banks when applying for a mortgage. If ever there was a case for be miss sold something this is it. The home where we had it had these electric radiators in every room, a wood burning stove (insert) in the living room & a large immersion heater fir hot water (very common in France). All continued to be used. The house was mid terrace from the 8O's so concrete block walls with polystyrene foam backed plasterboard lined walls & fairly good Rockwall loft insulation. We now live in a 300 plus year old house with meter thick stone walls & no insulation. Gas combi boiler & cast iron radiators doing it all. Gas pipes were being installed everywhere until ver recently. We have popup cowboy firms busily lining or externally cladding people's homes with flammable foam insulation for 1€ basically financed by France's big oil companies like Total to offset there continued solution. Bought a diesel car because we we encouraged to do so that soon won't be able to drive into Paris & Ill be forth nought. All a bit crap all this. People want to do the right thing but it's all a massive scam that could bankrupt ordinary people & leave them with no proper heating. Only going to excelerate now to avoid Russian gas.
@@Mike-kr5dn unfortunately there's a huge crackdown on wood fireplaces. Between municipalities and insurance companies it's getting cost prohibitive to install or even keep existing ones.
@@davidpike3464 that type of scam is going on right now in the USA but with solar systems, I see multiple advertisements every day for solar installations where you will get money back after the installation but they never mention the long term loan you cannot get out of
My house was built in 2008 with heatpump, never had any issues run's like a dream. Does the hot water and heating can't fault it, had it serviced twice in 10 years.
Same for me, built a well insulated house in2014 fitted ochner heat pump very cheap to run... Guy who sold it to me said only fit with under floor heating they do not preform well at high temp heat points.
In the US, you can get a heat pump rebate and still have a furnace. I live in NH in a re-insulated 1860s home, and I have a Bosch dual-fuel forced air system (heat pump/gas furnace). I can configure a balance point to set when each system kicks in. I have found it less expensive to run the heat pump down to around 10° F (the heat pump functions to -5°F ), it heats well but the output air is not as hot as the gas furnace (~ 95° vs 120°). Another plus with the heat pump is we now have central AC. I also have solar which offsets the cost.
And don't forget that once everyone has a heat pump running on electric, what do you think will happen to electricity prices? Once everyone has no choice, the price will go through the roof. Great and honest video thanks.
And just think of the noise of all those heat pumps in the street running at the same time, getting louder and louder as they get older. Not to mention the power cuts in the winter when the heat pumps and the electric vehicle chargers all going full pelt in the evening bring down the grid. Boris is a clown. This idiotic strategy needs a major kickback from the British people, and it needs it now!
OMG Roger... you hit the nail on the head with this one. You are the first person on UA-cam that I actually 'liked' and 'subscribed' to. I lived in the USA for 27 years and have a lot of experience with heat pumps (as a consumer). In some places they work great but mostly they are crap and very expensive. Over there, they are set up to work in reverse and provide A/C in the summer too. I lived in a fairly new apartment building in Wichita, Kansas but the buiding was built like cr**p. In the winter (-10 celcius outside) the heat pump was supplemented by a 3Kw electric coil that cost me a FORTUNE to keep the place even tepid warm... and I had to run it 24/7.
@@davidfrederic5787 Luckiy I was in Wichita during one of their mild winters. Typically it's around -20 with 60 mph winds. It's the only place where I've experienced my car being totally iced over with 1/2 inch of clear ice all over it. Hail storms with hail the size of golf balls are common. Every auto body shop in town specializes in hail damage repair. Dealers often have to total hail damaged cars that were out on their lots when a storm came through. Almost every building has a tornado shelter and earthquakes are common too. I experienced more earthquakes in Wichita during 18 months than I did in San Francisco in over 20 years. If you ever get offered a job in Wichita... turn it down!
Couldn't agree more. I've been in the commercial heating, ventilation and air conditioning business for over 30 years and it's a con. All refrigeration systems like this do is move heat from one place to another. Like a fridge in the kitchen, air conditioning takes heat from inside and loses it outside, heat pumps also work the other way round, taking heat from the outside and putting it inside. Aircon will work great in the winter as you're losing heat into cold outside air, but that's when you don't need it anyway. Similarly heat pumps work best in the summer as you're losing cold into hot outside air, when again you don't need it. When you do need it, it's hopelessly inefficient. Radiator temperatures are warm at best in the winter, not like your nice hot gas boiler system at almost double the water flow temperature. Hydrogen gas boilers make far more sense with zero emissions.
Mine works just fine. Admittedly they need more thought when designing a new system than a fossil fuel boiler. But we have to get away from fossil fuels. Hydrogen is even more inefficient as you need to include wastage in creating it from electricity and transporting it. There are 7.2 million Heatpumps installed in France at the last count. Those old Chateaus bought up by the Brits are pretty drafty.
I agree hydrogen sounds far more promising and realistic. Of course, same argument as with cars, the "vs electric" debate - which themselves aren't the silver bullet people think they are, far from it and are a bit of a con quite frankly. They've spent most of their carbon credits just in their creation, not to mention batteries, as we well know lose their efficiency too and need replaced and I doubt there's enough rare minerals in existence to meet the needs of everyone once-over given what we're potentially planning, let alone consistent replacements - they barely get recycled now either due to the complex and costly nature of doing so. We've all heard about the mountains of e-waste and it's just sitting there so it must be costly to recycle. So as I understand it, the issue with obtaining hydrogen is extracting it from the water in the first place, right? Which itself requires... heat (invariably a fossil fuel). However, if we can find a practical method of splitting the H from the O with a respectable return in efficiency then we're far more likely to actually develop a commodity for heating homes on a national scale. Heat pumps powered by wind or solar (that's what they imagine) is pie in the sky, unless of course we reconsider nuclear (conventional fission). But the greenie lunatics don't like nuclear. Maybe fusion but that's 20 years off, again, and maybe again.
@@LOOKINVERTED splitting the Hydogen from water is easy, requires electricity. The process isn’t 100% efficient. It would only work if we had cheap electric.
@@LOOKINVERTED Totally agree with your comments. Re electric cars (off topic I know), a petrol station with 12 pumps and 5 minutes per fill up/payment can in theory serve 144 people per hour flat out. A site with 12 rapid charging points can serve an average of about 15 per hour, provided they only want about 80% charge each. Bad enough until you look at the electrical load of 12 rapid chargers - many times more amps than 12 pumps and almost certainly more than the site's electrical supply can support, so you'd need a bigger supply...... then you'd have more loading on the national grid and substations.... bigger required again, then you'd need the extra generating capacity which we haven't got (especially on a windless dull day!) ..... and that's without the people who can't charge at home as they live in a flat or a terraced house with no drive. 'We'll put charging points on the lamp posts' they cry.... sorry, a rapid high-current 3-phase charger on a small single phase cable designed to run a light? Total madness.
@@neilanderson2374 Right, I've heard of electrolysis, fair point, I wasn't sure if that was simply a laboratory-type process for selective applications but never enough energy that can create an abundance? I'm no scientist, that much is probably obvious but you're still converting one energy source into another no matter the method being used of course and thermodynamics suggests you're always losing to some extent, it's how much isn't it. Just not sure on the type of return you'd get using that method? Speculating here but running a windmill or solar (for instance) to create the electrical power, surely that wouldn't sufficiently convert hydrogen in suitable quantities for such an industrial undertaking? Nuclear energy yes, but that type of output is obviously a far cry from using these supposed renewable technologies to do the same. Interesting debate none the less.
I've been using heat pumps for years and my flat is fully air conditioned and I personally think they are really really good really effective and really cheap to run.
@@benedictearlson9044 That's not how that works, and if you're a builder that's studied heat, you'd know that the amount you'd have to heat your flat has almost nothing to do with your neighbors'. Turns out thermodynamics isn't as simple as a guess. Roger A.K.A. Skill builder doesn't know much about the math behind heat pumps and probably never ventured to do research it. As a result 1.18 million people have watched this nonsense video & 35K have left a like.
@@amateurwizard Nonsense I'm afraid. In a converted semi your neighbours heating has a big impact on yours, and I have gas bills to prove that. In poorly insulated properties external walls are heat sinks and most brick built houses in the UK are poorly insulated. Your N American experience doesn't go far with brick built houses suffering a cool and damp oceanic climate.
@@benedictearlson9044 As an HVAC research engineer, I can confirm this. Walls are very conductive if not insulated. Most of the research work I do is in South Asia where we don't heating since our winters are still warmer than your summer but it's crazy the amount of heat flux that moves across concrete walls in the summer. I tested experimentally that in a small bedroom at the top floor, almost 3000 Watts of heat enters just through the roof that's getting direct sunlight during peak summer hours.
@@Intellechawwal : too true - shading external surfaces from direct sun (in hot climates) is so important in reducing heat gain - delaying heat entry to the "insulating layer".. Winter in Europe works in reverse - but with insulated walls the feeble sun doesn't heat much, pumping daytime (or ground) heat inside is the solution (lower energy usage than resistive or gas heating)- just need quieter compressor units, or enough thermal storage so the pump doesn't run at night to disturb the neighbours...
They DO work, in the right circumstances. Just over 10 years ago I lived in a new house that was built with an air source heat pump. It worked brilliantly, heated the water & house brilliantly, even when the outdoor unit was covered in snow. No underfloor heating. No gas for cooking. my electric bill was about £60 a month. I now live in a 1930s semi, with solid walls, I know a heat pump system will not work in this house. G&E bill is currently £250 a month!
@@Technaudio what will your gas and electricity bill be in 2023?! 😮 ours is about £250 every quarter but we live in a 2 bed semi, it’s old brick walls but I believe it’s had extra insulation put in at some point and isn’t as cold as the 2010 built 4 bed, 3 story house we lived in for 11 years because that house was built like shit, draft everywhere, crappy little radiators being fed by a communal boiler into a ‘heating manifold’ under the stairs. Cost a fortune and it never got all that warm! The house we live in now feels much warmer so far.
To be fair though you can’t really compare price from 10 years ago to now. You’d need to compare the KW. We live in a 1900 3 bed semi and were £100 a month 2 years ago and are now £290.
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you were right :)
HEAT PUMPS ARE ANOTHER EXPENSIVE SCAM TO FREEZE YOU OUT
I saved 3000 dollars when I installed a heat pump. So can you
Good story m8. And true.
Its even worse though. There is no global warming other than recovery from little ice age and CO2 does not affect temperature. Lots of studies found no correlation and worse again even; CO2 is THE life giving substance on earth. Plants need it to grow and the current levels of CO2 are too low, bc there is continuous binding (by tiny lifeforms) into rock. Thats where the vast majority of CO2 is now. If anything, using fossil fuels is needed and there is plenty of it.
Then the question remains why they push this nonsense. I think it is 2 fold:
One, for the people in power to gain power
and TWO, because of the principle that mankind has always tried to free people from labor by producing more efficiently. This has brought us to the situation where half the jobs in the west are non producing/ non functional jobs. So they want to push new things all the time, to employ more people and keep money 'rolling'. Our currencies (none of which are actual money) are going down as the west is crumbling financially and economically. All this creates new tech, new products, new jobs (as you also state) and postpones the inevitable for a bit. But that wont last.
One of those fields is solar and wind energy, but that only works, bc they keep increasing prices and have most of that stuff made in China, with fossil fuels. Thats all trickery. Energtically there is no gain of energy from solar and wind, as it is used now. It depends somewhat on the lifespan, which is pretty certain at this time for windturbines and for solar... probably not much more than stated. Also the efficiency of solar cell panels gradually goes down. Same as for hear pumps, but in a different way.
Heat pump sounds nice, but again, you have to add all cost to make an energetic balance and i dont think its going to be beneficial.
The entire circus is probably going to come crash down soon.
@@bengteklund1576 LOL
I live in the USA and I’ve worked in the HVAC field for almost 40 years. I have serviced and installed just about every type of heating/cooling system there is during that time, and I have seen end users who were unhappy with every type of heating and cooling system there is. When looking into why the occupants were unhappy, the root cause is just as often the deficiencies in the building envelope, as it has been the equipment itself.
I live in a rural area and currently use a closed loop geothermal heat pump to heat and cool my house. It works very well for me, because my local utility offers a great rate per KW for heat pumps, my house is newer and VERY well insulated, with an excellent vapor barrier, and the ductwork was designed with extra heat runs in order to reduce the velocity of the relatively cooler air being supplied during the heating mode.
I always tell homeowners to invest in insulating and improving the vapor barrier of their home if possible BEFORE investing in a high efficiency heating system; especially a heat pump system. Even the most expensive and most efficient heating system will not work well, and the occupants of the home won’t be comfortable if there is unwanted air movement through the structure, and too much heat transfer through the walls and ceilings!
I have seen quite a few unhappy homeowners who were sold a heat pump system for an old, under insulated, drafty farmhouse. The poor building envelope, relatively low supply air temperature, coupled with the higher amount of air being moved, results in high electric bills and uncomfortable occupants.
I always say: Just because it says “high efficiency” on the box doesn’t mean the appliance jumps out of it and cures all of your heating/cooling headaches. A good building envelope is at least half the battle, then if you select, design, install, and control a good quality, high efficiency, heating and cooling system, you will have low operating costs, and comfortable occupants!
How do you install the outsource if the owner live in tall apartment?
@@Frommirrorworld You don’t, or there is one master system for the building that uses a piped system to move hot or cold water through the building. No one system fits every possible situation.
It will be interesting to see the report later this year on the BPA’s tests around the PNW using carbon dioxide (R744 for you HVAC folks) water-heating heat pumps for space heating. They picked maritime and moderate on the Coast, i.e. temperate rainforest, temperate and moderate west of Cascades, or Puget Sound and Willamette Valley, inland dry and colder, think Spokane and Bend, Oregon, and quite cold locations (McCall, Idaho?). Don’t quote me too closely on locations. I skimmed it six months ago. Final report is always more interesting.
Interestingly, my Thermopride (the best oil fired furnace burner, period) oil furnace has a temperature of ~105-110F at the supply vents. My Fujitsu mini split air handler pushes out heat at 120F.
Modern heat pumps are unbeatable.
One simple wood furnace can create 30kw of energy easily and costs 1k bucks or even less and will heat up a small house with a very bad insulation. On the other side 30kw heat exchange pump will cost hell of a money counted in tens of thousands dollars and isn't affordable. That's what many people don't understand. Insulation is first step to bring the loss of energy down and heat pump is last.
I'm a Brit living in Iceland, it's crazy how well insulated the homes here are compared to the UK. A home can be warm enough just with sunlight coming through the windows when it's 0c. But when heating is needed it's geothermal water pumped from the ground directly into your home, for £25 a month... totally green and cheap, it's ideal!
Meanwhile in Australia we are all still googling what the word insulation means
The price for all that free geothermal energy is having earthquakes and massive volcanic eruptions, isn't it?
@@kingcurry6594 Everything in life's a trade off
So, basically, the solution is to move everyone to Iceland? Don't you worry it might get a bit crowded there and that keeping your houses warm economically will suddenly become the least of your problems?
@@kingcurry6594 luckily they have strict building regulations so the earthquake aren't a problem in terms of damage, and the biggest volcanos are a good distance away from the population areas, but yes there's risks
I live in Sweden and my house has a heat pump as do almost all houses here in the far North. Mine works down to about -15c below that I use electric radiators. My neighbour has one that will work down to -25c. The heat pump is not the problem. It's the type of housing that the UK has. Even new builds are not that well insulated. We have no gas but we have surplus electricity.
Cold and dry isn't a problem for air source heat pumps but 3C with a dewpoint of 1C (a very typical UK winter situation) causes a rapid build up of ice so the CoP and duty cycle go through the floor. I have an ASHP on an outbuilding and sure, it's OK above about 7C and OK below about -5C but these are not the typical UK conditions.
That is basically what the video says too
Your elecricity price is lower than the prices in Germany for example. We pay in average 0,3 EUR/kWh
What is Sweden's main electricity source?
I wonder what the ground temps are in Sweden and if y'all can do ground source hear pump
In my experience, heat pumps work fine in cold dry weather. The problem comes with damp weather. If it is between 32 and 45 and humidity is high, the heat pump freezes up. It drastically reduces heating power and efficiency. Under these conditions, I doubt it is more efficient or environmentally friendly than natural gas. I also question if your system has supplemental resistance heating, most do? If the resistance heating is being used then it is less efficient than natural gas.
Ill stick with my oil boiler as it costs around 800 quid a year in oil and thats for hot water and good heating even when its freezing cold.
Well, seems like you were right on the money about gas prices.
A micro chp like H2PS-5 is the solution.
Another one of his videos that has aged remarkably well. Skill Builder has his ear to the ground / knows quite a few people !
+1 great comment
The guys a genius!!
In fairness I don't think this Government has the skill or intelligence to manipulate the market to that extreme. Besides electricity has sky rocketed too. Rather it's men in suits exploiting a business opportunity and jumping on the carbon free band wagon. Oh wait...
Been running air to air heatpump for 12 years in Norway. Works as intended even in -25. Current pumps are even better...
I have the same situation and it works fine.
But homes need to be well insulated.
But would a gas boiler in your home be cheaper and more efficient if it was as available and priced the same as the UK, including installation and maintenance costs over that 12 year period?
@@simonpeggboard4004 if u go that route the most cost efficient is really good insulation and electric floor heating, really cheap installation and no maintenance ever. It almost never breaks either and the repairs are very cheap. But good luck getting subsidies for that.
@@Jester-rm9ox Not sure they have subsidies for heat pumps in Norway (which was the subject of the conversation). Last time I checked electric underfloor was less reliable than wet underfloor by a factor of 3, but been a while since I looked.
Yes, air to air Heat pumps work great for being cheap, and heating the air. and they do even more in the UK, but the problem is that they want to phase out the Gass boilers, and the gass make the heated tap-water.
Not many houses in Norway use the Air to Water or water to water pumps as they cost way more, are more complicated, takes more room etc. And they can't get ass efficient as the temperature has to be twice as hot(because of the tap water).
Here's what I see happening, Boris will give government contracts to a friend to install these around the UK, just after buying stocks in that company
Exactly!!
Agreed, but obviously they will cock it up too.
@Jesus Jones "Insider Trading" has harsh penalties for the common folk, but not for the elite
Like the vaccine
Darren: They all do! All sides of the house are hypocrites.... It's ACCESS they crave...not the salary of an MP.
Been checking the heat pump sites and you are so right. What you say about heated clothing is the best idea, I now invest in thermal underwear and insulation for the house and have had a comfortable winter on background heating. As a bonus I find as soon as we get a bit of winter sun I can sit outside to enjoy my pint !!
What I learned from this video:
1. Poorly insulated houses are harder to heat.
2. Whether you save with a heat pump depends on the relative cost of gas vs electricity.
3. All Brit's have poorly insulated homes and access to cheap gas.
What I DID NOT learn from this video:
1. How to properly size a heat pump for a specific home.
2. That a heat pump can operate as an air conditioner in the summer.
3. What the economic and environmental costs of burning gas are.
We can live without air conditioning in the UK, and save energy doing so.
I don't see anything in the video title that specifies you would learn those things.
@@andrew4274-q4m Agreed, I can think of about 3 weeks in my 47 years of living in England when I felt the need for air con.
Not cheap gas!
Don't worry about the environmental impacts. You're not going to be around forever.
so, they work best after you insulated your house,= ok! but your old heating system will work also much more efficient in an insulated house.
@@John-ed2wj law of physics anybody? no?
energieerhaltungssatz, in english conservation of energy
Exactly.
But a lot of the current UK housing stock CAN NOT be insulated.
All the best.
@@ivancho5854 why cant it be insulated? I really cant understand.
I am a retired Carpenter and Joiner now in my ninth decade. I recall the ststements I heard as an apprentice and they were a bunch of hard working well experienced tradesmen who had lived through hard times, some fighting in two world wars. Roger is singing from the same hymn-sheet and he will be proved right. Listen to him and take what he says on board.
No, new homes need to be built properly.
@@robuk3723 ur mum gae
@@robuk3723 How about you pay to tear down all the old houses not well built enough, and rebuild energy efficient homes for them. Do something to help or shut up
Insulation Insulation Insulation! Wherever you can put it, put it!
Pipes, attic and if possible, floors.
Well said Bob, totally agree and as a retired engineer myself the modern world suffers from an inability to think practically and learn from those with knowledge. Good intentions and profits lead us down the wrong roads often.
Great information and extremely well presented. I was a fully qualified HVAC engineer (now retired) and have designed and installed all manner of heating systems. So I'm well qualified to judge your info, which as I said is wonderful. Good to hear you include rough costs too. Well done. and thank you.
This panel can put out close to 100 watts ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxOqI2yqX0XVrhR2BMJciTWrHJpG8FhJyg when positioned in the appropriate southernly direction, tilted to the optimal angle for your latitude/date, and connected to a higher capacity device than a 500. The built in kickstand angle is a fixed at 50 degrees. Up to 20% more power can be output by selecting the actual date and latitude optimal angle.The 500 will only input 3.5A maximum at 18 volts for 63 watts. Some of the excess power from the panel can be fed into a USB battery bank, charged directly from the panel while also charging a 500. This will allow you to harvest as much as 63 + 15 = 78 watts.If this panel is used to charge a larger device, such as the power station, then its full output potential can be realized.
I moved to Ireland in 2018 and bought a new house with a Heat Pump installed. Current building regulations require that houses are highly insulated (ours is A3) and therefore the heat pump technology works really well. Overall I have been very impressed and happy with the low running costs when compared to our former U.K. property (both 2200 sq ft). My only gripe is the inability to access instant extra heat when needed on a rare occasion. We do also have a wood burning stove but have only needed to use this 4 or 5 times in 3 years.
An excellent video for others living in poorly insulated houses. I will send this to friends considering heat pumps. I will recommend two careers to my children….installing heat pumps and setting up a claims call centre!
is your heap pump feeding off of a ground source? that would make it work at all times.
Not forgetting the 3rd career; insulating the millions of old houses in the UK!
This is good to hear. I'm building a house at the moment and have fitted underfloor heating throughout to use with heat pumps. Really hoping it's not a massive mistake!
He did say in the video that heat pumps are find for new builds with good insulation. And that it is incredibly expensive to retrofit insulation.
You can get this extra heat with a simple modification : adding a mixing bottle to your installation. Il keeps a little amount of warm water in it, that helps the heat pump to use less power at the start and gaining few extra minutes of heating at the start. Also, think about programming your heat pump to start at a sertain time, then you can have heat when you wake up :)
It took me about 20 minutes to install it on my own. As long as you can lift it out the box and up into position you’re good. I did have to break the box to get it out as it was a snug fit. I followed the installation video on you tube which was a big help. I added this to support central air in my house that was struggling upstairs because of my house design. Lovely unit. Very quiet ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx_hHgTlzH3uk31Fe2RVS3xEbXHGaN_z5T and looks sharp. Had it in a couple of weeks and so far so good. It’s cooling a bedroom about 25ft X 15 no problem at all.
That's aircon
My stone cottage has solid stone walls three feet thick. It was built about 275 years ago. The thermal mass of the building is amazing. It is always toasty warm in the winter, and nice and cool in a hot summer. My only source of heating is a log burner, using free wood waste.
my house is 600 years old
@@JohnSmith-en6ev I'm getting there slowly, one year at a time.
You’re lucky. Here in America we build our houses out of wood and chemically-laden wood waste.
At least we have fiberglass meat in our wood/wood waste sandwiches; but that certainly does not compensate for a lack of thermal mass.
You must live in the UK - about the only place in the world that I know of where people think 10 deg C is "toasty warm". 😁
May I ask how you manage the fine particles from the burning of wood?
Lovely Rant
No gas in my area, installed a heat pump whilst renovating and up graded all the insulation to spec of building control.
Absolutely brilliant and electric bills were very cheap for the whole building and plenty of hot water. Could not complain about the system.
How much for the pump and how much to install ?
What country do you live in?
I live in Devon, England
I had the pump installed in 2010, the pump along cost £7000.
Yeah, you want to rip your house apart to install a completely new system. No way. Actually is this not a similar punt as the whole solar panel scam? They really do think we are simple.
Top rant Roger.
But please base your rant on the correct numbers.
A COP of 1 or 2 is very very bad (did I say that's is very bad COP).
You might get a COP of 1 at -20C.
The average COP (or better Seasonal COP (SCOP), is around 3.4 to 4.
So even at 0C, the COP of a good heat pump is > 3.
Furthermore you are talking about Air-Water heat pumps.
You forgot (the more expensive) Water-Water heatpump where the COP is quite stable because the energie is taken from the earth which is quite stable, even is it is < -10C.
The heat pump is certainly not a new technologie, it might be new technologie for the UK and is perfectly capable of heating a normally build house. Heat pumps rely on low temp radiators or floor heating and are doing a great job. But you need to understand how it works. A heat pump is the last thing you install in your house, after you got rid of the draft and the uninsulated floor, walls and most important the roof.
Your rant should be about the uninformed installer (including yourself I'm afraid).
Please get your fact right.
p.s. By telling your audience that some people may say things work perfectly, but those are exceptions, you stop any good discussion before it even started, a bad idea.
What about the refrigerant gases, such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) damage the ozone layer, while others are extremely potent greenhouse gases. In fact, one kilogram of the refrigerant R410a has the same greenhouse impact as two tonnes of carbon dioxide, which is the equivalent of running your car for six months. No one talks about that.
@@coyote5735 Do you often release the refrigerant from the HP or AC systems? You don't.
@@janosvarga9997 No but they do leak over time all of them, think of the cumulative effect. Not so environmentally friendly after all.
@@coyote5735 classic "what if" chat.
Disconcerting that you've got 19 upvotes so far. Quite a few people have clearly bought the hype, and are in for a nasty shock when they go ahead and install a heat pump.
Air source heat pumps are expensive as it is, ground source heat pumps cost even more, and will be way out of most people's price range.
Most UK housing stock is too draughty for heat pumps to work properly. Our houses actually have air bricks built into them to let outside air in and ensure there's adequate ventilation. Houses designed for heat pumps are completely draught proofed and don't have any built in ventilation, instead they use something called MVHR (mechanical ventilation with heat recovery) to exchange interior and external air without much heat loss. It's not feasible to draught proof existing housing stock to the level required for heat pumps to work efficiently. That's why people who have them installed are complaining of cold houses and large electricity bills.
The COP of a heat pump depends on the outside temperature. Their COP drops substantially below 0C, and below about -10C most of them shut off altogether and switch to resistive heating (COP of 1, the heat you get out is the same as the electricity you put in). When it's colder you also need more heat of course, so what this means is that the electricity demand of these things spikes dramatically in cold weather. By what could easily be a factor of 10. Very cold weather doesn't happen that often in the UK so it might not seem like that big a deal, but if millions of households have converted to these things it's going to crash the grid. We have very little spare generating capacity as it is, there quite simply isn't enough spare capacity to support millions of air source heat pumps (especially if their demand climbs to 10x normal due to very cold weather). It'll be like the blackouts in Texas, except a regular occurrence every time there's cold weather. Vulnerable people will die, and housing stock will be ruined by pipe bursts. It's an insane policy, especially since most of our electricity is generated from gas with an efficiency of only about 50 percent, when modern gas boilers have an efficiency greater than 90 percent.
The Doctors' surgery behind our house has some kind of heat exchange system which fires up at 2 am and runs for half an hour. Then at about 3.30am it starts again. The outside equipment is around 50 yards away but it still wakes me up most nights. I can only imagine the noise if every house had one. There must be a viable alternative.
Our next door neighbour has an oil fired central heating system that makes a racket when it fires up. Meanwhile my three neighbouring air source heat pumps and my ground source heat pump are inaudible.
@@rogerphelps9939 that thing must be malfunctioning. Furnaces (no matter the fuel) are usually inaudible from outside the building.
What wakes me are the awful vibrations at 2:30 on top of a 24/7 zooming and deep buzz. It’s an upstair neighbour with unit in the appartment resonating everywhere in my house. After 3 yrs I can no longer cope
Heat pumps are just ACs working in reverse. So they make as much noise an AC would.
IVE NOTICED ALL THESE DRAFT PROOF HOUSES AND FLATS ARE WAY TOO HOT IN THE SUMMER HARD TO SLEEP , RATHER LIVE IN DRAFTY HOUSE AND SLEEP LIKE A KING IN THE SUMMER
Insulate ceilings walls floors and windows first including draught-proofing. Putting any form of heating into a cold damp leaky box wont reap any sensible result. Common sense prevails.
@@LiLBitsDK He's right. In the UK, the correct spelling is 'draught'.
Is not an option when you rent a cardboard box for couple thousands pounds.
@@goury Here in New Zealand rental properties must comply as of 1 July 2021 for minimum R-Values for insulation and a range of other energy efficiency measures. So, it would seem like many other country to country differences that this is about governmental priorities and policies. This energy policy the UK has seems bizarre that they don't insulate to a minimum standard prior to grants/subsidies for heating.
@@lucasbuchanan6939 cool.
If only NZ wasn't located at the very edge of the of the world.
@@lucasbuchanan6939 THIS
We just retrofitted our old early 1900's farm house with air-conditioning with the optional heat pumps. Two systems were installed, a spacewalk for the main floor, and a carrier system for the upstairs and attic. The house is 2300 sq feet plus a 400 sq fit attic, which was also included in the system. Previously, the home had hot water radiator heat and no AC. The boiler runs on natural gas. The boiler is 38 year old. The new system is designed to heat utilizing the heat pumps until the outside temperature gets down to 28 degrees. After that, the boiler kicks on. So far, with over a year of use, our highest monthly utility bill has been $118.00 US or both electric and gas. This is just over 1/3 or our previous high bills of 312.00. The system was very expensive to us, but having these ultra low bills, do help me appreciate the initial cost. I have zero complaints. Saving up now for a boiler replacement.
Newest heat pumps can go down into -5's F or lower. You should look at upgrading.
yeah.. i dont know why he is all worked up about
That's just terrific;; just hope the utility doesn't have the bright idea of increasing their rates; they do that from time to time!
@@cranbers Efficiency drops the lower you go. I live where the temps go down to -20F and lower.
You can get both cooling and heating from a heat pump.
I installed a air to water heat pump 3 years ago in a 1950s house in southern Scandinavia with no cavity wall insulation and minimal insulation consisting of wooden chips in the loft. It has locally hand made double glassed windows also from the 1950s. Previous heating was converted oil to electrical and I'm using the original water radiators. Water was heated separately with an electrical heater. I can safely say I have not only a more evenly heated house (not sure why, but it is), but my heating bill has been reduced by 75%-80%. The noise pollution has been minimal.
What's the point of your statement if you dont state what unit you are using ? you are blowing more hot air than your heat pump !
@@luckyPiston 14 kW Mitsubishi Ecodan R32 Zubadan outside unit. Covers 350m² with some extra headroom for a possible future extension.
Well, you did go from electrical to heat pump. Higher efficiency is to be expected in this case. In the UK most houses use gas for heating.
Noise.. Have you considered LFN (low frequency noise)? You may very well not hear it, but LFN can travel miles causing totally unsuspecting citizens to search for a hum they will never be able to explain, but seriously disturbs their peace.
@@spiceworks5704 A very valid point. Noise is similar to an air conditioning unit. We did turn the unit by 90° as my neighbour did experience some low level humming noise that he noticed at night and just above the background noise. It is in the country side, so very quiet. He has a background as an engineer in Radio/Television and he measured using his sound level meter.
A friend of ours has a GS heat pump and her house is lovely and warm. BUT, it’s a £0.7 M new build with underfloor heating across the whole ground floor, superb insulation, a plant room bigger than most people’s bathrooms and thermostats in every bedroom. Our house is 120 years old, and it’d be impossibly impracticable and expensive to try to replicate that, we’ll stick to our cosy gas boiler. Great video, thanks.
Being a qualified heating engineer myself you are spot on.
Air source heat pumps = Larger pipe sizes, larger radiators, insulation. Buffer tank. It’s a 20k project.
You are spot on.
Not sure about larger pipe size a nd radiators - Insulation definitely . the other argument is just to continue gas / oil because we have poor insulation Huh?? Wait till Vlad decides to cut off your oil
@@Lance-fk1eb Not Putin, the clown Johnson stopping production in the North sea and the licenses for exploration years and years oil and gas still left
Mine cost 10k for full new system
hehe can i have heated socks aswell please
@@Lance-fk1eb ordinary radiators are made for higher water temperature (smaller surfice area) and ordinary pipes have trouble leading the needed amount of not that hot water to give enough effect on to the radiator.. (if you have a high speed on the water there is a annoying sound in the system and i guess it might lead to cavitation, perhaps also to small temperature difference between outgoing water and returning water that will effect the efficiency of the system a lot negatively.)
I live in Canada, have had two heat pumps since 2012 replacing base board electrical heat.. I do have good quality insulation and have experienced huge savings since then. No incentives were available and costs were paid back by 2018. No issues down to -20 as it doesn’t get any colder here. I do agree with the insulation comments. I would spend my money on insulation first, then on heating system.
There are some pumps that work at -70.
There are also some pumps that work at +70.
There are however no pumps that work at both +70 and -70.
This is why you should always buy one in a local store and never from ebay or amazon or wherever else on the internet.
It sure can be more expensive, but at least you can be sure you're buing the right one for your local climate.
How much do you pay for gas in Canada?
In the UK it is generally ⅕th the price of electricity so no way a heat pump can compete with an efficient gas boiler.
@@eckyhen heat pumps are more than ten times efficient.
Not only that, but UK is importing gas, so it's bad for the economy.
@@goury I assume by ten times more efficient you mean a cop of ten. I have never heard of a heat pump that can go that high, especially in real world conditions where 3 seems to be more typical.
@@goury That is complete bullshit. The max COP you get out of a heat pump is 3, modern gas boilers are near 100% efficient. Since UK electric is nearly 10 times the price of gas, that means a gas boiler costs ONE THIRD as much to run as a heat pump. . . I know, I fit them, then we come back in winter to 'upgrade' them with a gas boiler.
I have been fitting Heat Pumps for 25 years, and yes they have there limitations. A lot of what has been said in this video is correct, however if designed and selected properly a Heat Pump will work and be efficient. I have had to rectify many systems due to poor design and the end user has been poorly advised. We are fitting loads of Air to Air Heat Pumps ( Air Conditioning units ) that also cool for £1200. In some cases they are the sole heat source, others the existing heating remains and is used as a top up. As with most things there is a middle ground ie not all Heat Pumps are bad and not all are good. People out there need to apply there own scrutiny and common sense when listening to sales people.
sense is no longer common
I have two air to air heat pumps fitted, an older Daikin and a newer Mitsubishi Ecocore. I also have undertile heating fitted throughout most of the house (the electric mat style not water pipes).
When I bought the property eleven years ago the Daikin was the sole heat source for the property, and while it heated the air in the lounge and dining room, once you opened the door to the hall to get heat down to the bedrooms the lounge became quite cool. The second problem was that when you opened either of the doors (there are two ranchsliders in the lounge), all the heat seemed to disappear out the door, a problem when you have a cat. The other issues were the noise and dust.
Now the undertile heating, rather like a radiator provides background heat that is silent and doesn't leave the house when the door is opened (no to the same extent at least), and heats the whole property. We rarely use the heat pump for heating, probably a couple of times a year only, but regularly run both for cooling, having one in the bedroom is the best thing we have done, and the Ecocore is quiet enough that you can sleep with it on.
If I was still in the UK I would be maintaining my gas central heating but would look at adding a heatpump for the A/C element.
I'm sure you are right but as Roger said if your house is super insulated then a heat pump will work fine but we live in the real world and unless we are going to knock down all the older houses and build new ones at a time when the building trade cant keep up with the current demand its not going to happen.
@@martinasher8705 Walls are rarely the issue. As long as they're brick or stone and thick enough they will hold heat reasonably well. Majority of heat losses come from poorly insulated roofs/attics and old doors and windows. If you fix those your heating bills will reduce significantly. Whether it's worth the investment depends on the expected cost return of the initial investment but the prices of electricity/fuel will only go up, the insulation will reduce your bills for years to come.
Hi Stuart, I am doing comparisons of ASHPs to gas boilers in existing homes for my university dissertation, would there be any chance you could complete my questionnaire when its ready? Thanks
I am in complete agreement on 'Heat?' Pumps! The other thing you mentioned Heated Jackets. People these days seem to think that the house should be hot enough for just a t-shirt in the winter. Growing up we always wore jackets in the house during cold weather, few houses at that time had central heating. Perhaps we are all getting a bit soft!!
Or just don't skimp on insulation when building a new home
_"People these days seem to think that the house should be hot enough for just a t-shirt in the winter."_ *AND?? As long as I pay for what I choose to use I should damn well get it!* And btw, this is 20 bloody 24, *not* 1924 (wearing a jacket inside during cold weather... give me a break!
Well done Roger, especially about the "where there's a blame, there's a claim" mob ringing you up to see if you want compensation
Also the uk government we was told buy diesel then diesel was bad. Then to counter the bad have diesel euro 5 meaning Adblue.
@@marcus577 USA utilities pull the same crap!
@@marcus577 adblue is seventy three percent distilled water then put in your urea, probably as good if you peed in there, just a matter of time before they find its either harmful to humans or the environment, but by then the millions would have been made, so that's fine!!.
Thanks Roger, I was seriously looking at this technology last week....then TODAY I see your predictions coming true. Another big push to encourage scrapping the gas boilers, after recently 'adjusting' the gas prices.
The refusal of the public to fall for this con can kill it stone dead.
it is more important for the Authorities to hammer Russias gas export profits, anything else is secondary. Just like how the EU says we should have renewable energy from solar panels but then slap a 71% import tax on Chinas solar panels in order to make their own producers competitive
Thanks Roger, Brilliant video.
@@dingopisscreek Hopefully.
@@dingopisscreek My gas per KWh is costing me 4p, my electricity is costing me 24p, so everything else being equal, I need a heat pump with a X6 efficiency just to break even. Such a heat pump does not exist at this time and they have a long way to go to make gas as expensive as electricity.
A good friend of mine with 45 year refrigeration experience told me that refrigeration and low cost don't come together when we were discussing air to water heating systems, I do believe him as any advise I received from him was always on the money.
Thanks, that is interesting. You’ve confirmed what I was thinking.
Just remember this one rule. If the product requires a salesman to come to your door to hawk it, that means its not very good. If a product is good, you will most likely hear about it from word of mouth and getting an appointment will be difficult, because they are too busy, no salesman will be required.
Yeah, and doubly so if the government has to subsidize it!! 😀
@@comment6864 Considering how much governments subsidize oil and gas, this is really a good point!
@@KeithCarmichaelInFL That has to do more with the cost, not the demand. Nobody has offered me any tax breaks for buying a gas stove or driving a regular combustion engine car, but there are incentives for buying a hybrid, or at least used to be, not sure if there still is. Don't get me wrong, i like hybrids, but would never get an all-electric car as my only vehicle. Not a smart idea at all., even if there was a huge monetary incentive. And for no money would i ever use heated air as my primary heat source LOL
@@KeithCarmichaelInFL you do realize those subsidies mean nothing. Oil and gas spend more on govt than they receive. So they aren’t really subsidized.
@@weignerleigner3037 You do realize that my response wasn't even true. Not only do O & G not really get a subsidy, but it's all mostly a shell game to throw money down to other interests? But, it's hilarious that you fell right into that one and defended it without a clue anyway! Thanks!
I live in Switzerland in an old, poorly insulated Swiss chalet. I insulated it and installed a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating. It's now draft free, cheap to run, and as almost all Swiss electricity in Switzerland is hydro-electric it's CO2 free. UK friends love to visit in the winter because my house is so comfortable. I hate to visit UK homes in the winter because they're so horribly insulated.
You forget to mention that electricity in your country costs nothing compared to the price in the rest of Europe
@@ltjuglans194 Actually, the price of electricity in Switzerland is a little higher than the UK. France is quite a bit cheaper. Switzerland is pretty close to the European average.
@@davidellis2021 France has nuclear power
@@moetocafe So has Switzerland. What's your point exactly?
@@davidellis2021 my point is, that nuclear power is one of the cheapest and with very stable fuel prices, unlike any other energy source.
I don't know the energy mix of both countries, but probably France has much higher percentage of nuclear in their mix, than Swiss.
Lots of people are unaware a heatpump system requires bigger pipes and bigger radiators so installation costs will be much higher than the heat exchanger/pump unit alone. Like most government initiatives (all parties), this has been thought through in a very half baked way
Massive oversize radiators running cool.
Or something reasonable like underfloor heating.
@@jankoodziej877 Yes - UFH is the best option. But a lot of places can't have UFH.
@@stakkerhmnd yeah, in general it only makes sense in new buildings, designed with that in mind.
@@jankoodziej877 Seen a lot of UFH retro-fits - some were done well and some were a bad joke. As you say, new buildings makes sense. The Nordics designed their buildings properly 50 years ago for their environments so these systems aren't really suitable for UK market.
I spent 15 or 20mins researching heat pumps and then I find you. You are the only view In my search results that had a negative or opposing view. It's almost like a algorithmic conspiracy that I am shown only 1 view point on a search result. 🧐
I have in floor heating with a nat gas boiler in northern alberta. I see my government in Canada pushing these heat pumps, hence my interest.
Whenever I see government intervention into anything I have skepticism. Reading all the pros and benefits of heat pumps and seeing nothing negative must trick a lot of people to make bad decisions.
I'll stick with my reliable natural gas for heating and hot water. I'm actually considering at the moment to remove my electric stove and put in natural gas😅
I would need to see a cost analysis to believe what is claimed in the video. There are plenty of videos where such costs are analyzed. I have not seen any that backs the OP's claims.
The reason for the stressing of insulation is due to the differences in how heat pumps supply heating. The price difference between a 5KW gas boiler and a 10KW boiler is relatively small, but is significant in HPs, so the cost of initial install is much less if you can reduce your heating needs. If you ignore equipment costs, sure, just buy a massive 17KW HP for your cottage, but it makes more sense to insulate first whatever your heat source.
True...but that's far from being even as easy as easier said than done. I told my landlord that the winter before last would be the last winter I'd have an ugly wood pile outside of the workshop because I'd be insulating the building and putting propane heaters in. Well...I did a crap load of insulating but when it comes to something that had no insulation to begin with insulating it means a major construction project, tearing out drywall and such. The building I'm talking about has auto repair equipment all over the damn place! Just moving stuff to get ladders in there to insulate the ceiling is nearly impossible. And I'll tell you this, if you have one area that you simply can't thoroughly insulate, you're screwed! The cold air will suck up a crap load of propane and you'll be wishing the wood stove was back. I told him this winter I'd be heating with wood for as long as I live here and work here. If that's a problem, tell me know, I'll move out. He said, "can you put a tarp over it in the summer?" LOL I will still work at insulating but the next project that needs to happen is a small walk in door so that I don't loose so much heat when I open the overhead door to walk in. I'm still going to loose all my heat when the door opens though. So what's going to happen? I'll use both wood heat and natural gas but I refuse to use propane. It's FAR more expensive than natural gas which he uses in the house. Let me tie into the gas and I'd rip the stove out tomorrow! But "no, I don't want to do that" he says. You can't win! LOL
i will tell every conservative that heat pumps are a liberal conspiracy
Because we all are living in nicely done excel sheet of perfect computer model.... Why are all climate change celebrities are NOT selling their oversized mansions yet? Why they still use private jets? Do they drive electric VW UP or big gas guzzling SUV? Do they eat bugs or exotic meats?
There, open your eyes.
@@myself342 that's a bunch of non sequitur. Excel spreadsheet or not, the efficiency of heat pumps beats gas boilers, the data is quite clear, if you disagree, please cite your sources rather than merely intimating and insinuating.
Why are rich people doing what they want and being hypocritical... because people are hypocritical, that doesn't alter the efficiency of a technology.
@@LudvigIndestrucable
I saw somebody have to put together about 8 kW of solar just to run his heat pump. Doesn’t sound like a plan for most people, when you need another 15 kW of solar to run your house.
Where are the savings?
I got a heat pump installed and it works fantastic. We replaced an oil. Boiler and are very happy with the decision we made.
Yea.i own a hvac company and been installing alot of them .they are absolutely great.the new heatpumps are way more efficient then gas or oil,this guy i promise you doesn't know what he is talking about. Trust me.heatpumps 25 years ago were junk for cold climate but 2022 heatpumps there is nothing better.
The numbers Roger states regarding efficiency aren't realistic.
Here's evidence of how they work when we'll installed..
ua-cam.com/video/QLGANlbqIFY/v-deo.html
Greetings from Scandinavia, or Finland to be more precise. Thanks for pointing out the problem that the UK has with the houses (yes, I've been to the UK and witnessed it first hand..). It's not really a problem with the heat pump technology. I have now had an 8 kW air to water monoblock Fujitsu and radiators for about 5 years. It works just as I calculated. Enough down to about -12 C in my 130 m^2 house, below that I burn wood chips. The pump was about 3,5 ke and about 1 ke for installation (I did what I could, basically it was just the water pipes what the plumber did). It's installed on a separate concrete slab on rubber insulators below my kitchen window, if you are really quiet in the kitchen you can barely hear the fan running. Condensed water is run underground accompanied by a heating cable to avoid freezing. Yearly average temperature around here is about 5 C. Before the pump electricity consumption was about 10 000 kWh/year plus about 20 m^3 of wood chips for the winter. With the pump the electricity is the same, but I use about 0-5 m^3 of chips. That -12 C limit does not mean that the pump stops or anything, but after that the house starts getting colder. But still if it's -20 C during the night and -5 C during the day, the house stays perfectly warm. I didn't do this to save money, just to save chips and my time/labour. So far the pump has been pretty much start and forget and the house is nice and warm for most part of the year. Around -10 C the COP drops to around 2, but around 0 it's in the region of 3 without much optimization. In general I wouldn't jugde the pumps, you just have to know the limits and pick the right product for the right application, this is where most get it wrong. Sure you can't run 65 C water to the radiators at -20 C, but that kind of a house shouldn't have an air to water pump to begin with, an air to air on the other hand would help.
We need 80 C at the radiators LOL
Interesting, sounds like great news. However now burning wood is being damned as a bigger pollutant than that caused by vehicle emissions! In 50 years time we might have saved the planet but we will all be bloody miserable..
I think he was highlighting the effects of negative balance points in each conditioned space. A Heat pump thats exactly sized for the space, may not account for all drafts that affect the balance point. Which will fail in comfort.
@@lifesforliving4929 in here finland we have this called "varaavatakka" . I have electric heating , Nunnauuni woodstove and Nunnauuni freblace.
Nunnauuni have made thees wood heating very ecofriedly becoos stone that have been used absodr heat for 24 hours.
So i can save big borsion of my electric bill and i am foresmacine worker i can get wood very cheap when i need it.
@@janne47pro Interesting, but here in Britain there is a growing surge of feeling that log burners however efficient they might be and open fires burning wood are major polluters and that they should be banned. I was always told that burning wood was no more harmful than letting the wood naturally rot but now it has been discovered that the particles given off during burning are more harmful. I love open fires, log burners and bonfires but I can see that all of these are in the future going to either be strictly controlled in the UK or stopped altogether. It can help massively if well seasoned wood is burnt, not that that has not been allowed to dry properly but I do not think sufficient controll over that can be achieved to reduce the risk. Also, it seems that people in town and cities are the ones who most object to open fires and log burners because they might live close to someone with either.
Having installed an air source heat pump 4 years ago - making sure the insulation was upgraded - I'll say this over the oil burner it replaced: 1/ the bills are lower 2/ the heat is more consistent and even 3/ the noise is lower 4/ the stink of the oil burner fumes as you walk past has been replaced by the normal smells of the countryside. When the other oil burner is replaced it'll be with a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating - even more efficient.
SB: "They've got to bring the price of gas up" - prophetic words from someone before they did exactly that less than 2 years ago.
Gas prices have exploded across Europe - partly due to lack of supply from Russia, as well as an increase in demand around the world.
This shortage has increased the price of gas, which is also having a knock-on effect on electricity prices.
Russia invaded Ukraine seven months after this video was filmed, though. Prices have gone up, yes - but not solely for the reasons he states.
When he says "They've got to bring the price of gas up", this happens through taxation, not through some shady conspiracy that you don't know about. The price of gas has gone up mainly because our biggest supplier turned out to be a bit of a shit.
First of all I would like to see these pumps installed in all the homes of government ministers, MPs and government offices. When they have been tested for say 5 years and they are all happy, then perhaps we could fit them in our houses. We should not be made Guinea pigs for environmental experiments that could cost households a fortune. Also maintenance of these systems is very expensive, as you have to hire a specialist HVAC engineer to service them.
Its a money making scam. The government says it will remove the levy on electricity, once you are reliant on electricity for everything, they will add that levy on again
You have been guinea pigs for at least 40 years while the fossil fuel industry KNEW we would have global warming, and that the consequences would be grave.
You have been lied to year after year after year while politicians protected the fossil fuel industry and told us that we were fear mongering.
You are stupid enough to ask for politicians to have them for 5 years before you would consider fitting a heat pump, while you disregard the decades of use all over the world, where millions of homes use heat pumps that actually work.
Great idea.
@@Traitorman.Con.14th.Sec3
But not fitted in the UK. Also you are basing your beliefs on a false presentation of science, which I believe in strongly. Question; What melted the Ice Ages before any industrialisation? How is it that the Sahara used to be covered by trees? How is it that remains of tropical plants can be found in the UK? The Earth is a volatile entity that has changed and is always changing, why do we think the natural changes have stopped just for our convenience? There is no immediate climate crisis, it is a political and media led religious crusade.
We should insulate, insulate, insulate, then fit the best and most suitable heating system for our building, whatever it is.
If anyone thinks that all the world - especially China is going to follow all this ‘save the planet’ stuff, then I feel sorry for them!
@@petercollins7848
And how is it that you cannot fathom the dire problems ahead? Haven’t you seen the graphs? Haven’t you noticed the speed of the increase? The accelleration? Is it so difficult to understand that Sahara didn’t just happen overnight but over thousands of years , but the vast problems we are facing now happened during the last few decades?
I'm a refrigeration engineer. You never mentioned repair costs. Compressors fail. Running at high pressure and temperature, kiss goodbye 3k
I replace compressors on heat pumps all day long. An 11k machines compressor cost £1000 and an 8kw is £800. On a r290 machine the gas is cheap and you can get 70c flow temps but you should only need 60c max
Like boilers have a great reputation for reliability.
@@ungrim97 some boilers do have excellent reliability. Of course you can choose cheap crap, but if you stick to Vaillant, Worcester Bosch or Viesmann, you can expect many years of reliable service with no hassles.
@@ibleedswede 70 deg C flow at what COP?
@@flatfoot only 1.2 COP @ 75 but it can do it cheaper than an immersion if you insist on a legionella cycle once a week for an hour. The rest of the time you can do DHW at 52 c for a good balance of cop verses usability. A usual family empties there stored hot water at least once a day so legionella protection would be provided by that alone. People always find objections to new technologies and standards. People objected to having to wear seatbelts at one time. I'm not sure if Roger is a climate change denier or a big oil shill but heat pumps in one form or another are the future for domestic heating and most of the obstacles that exist for retrofit to old houses will be overcome.
I can understand how heat pumps are not a good economical swap for boiler systems (popular in Great Britain) because all of the heat exchangers will need to be much larger. Heat pumps work great for under floor heating. In the United states they work good because most homes are forced air.
I've had a heat pump for five years and it's been a disaster from day one. It is not cheaper and it has repeatedly broken down, leaving me without heat or hot water for weeks while the engineers try to figure out if it's the water pressure, the frequency signal from the thermostat to the pump, the pump itself or a leak in the pipes. Absolute nightmare!
Clearly you bought a rubbish make. Would it be a British effort from a company with no experience.
@@rogerphelps9939 It's Panasonic. Is Panasonic a rubbish make? I don't know but their heat pump is! I sit here without heat or hot water yet again. This time they think it's the filter, the system needs to be flushed, which will take a full day. Lucky me, eh?
You were bang on about the gas prices! Great presentation!
As a retired heating engineer I know a little on this subject. Heat pumps do work! But only in the right kind of house’s they are the ones that have very very high levels of insulation. A little experiment is to turn your gas boiler down to 45-50 degrees centigrade on a very cold day and see if your house is kept warm. This is because that’s about the temperature that a heat pump works at..
Now that's a bloody good idea to try. Thanks.
@@PF-gi9vv At fifty C you'll be roasted like a turkey! Ideal temps. are 25 to 28 C.
@@PF-gi9vv Use a thermometer in the lounge. Normal temp should be around 20 to 21 degrees C
@@abbersj2935 But try to get that with your radiators at 45C heat pump temperature, is what the man said!
@@bobboscarato1313 That's radiator water set temp, not the room target air temp
The issue is not with Heat Pumps, the issue is with the illusion that all things must be in context. Your correct better insulation makes a big difference, as does the places you live. I have a decent insulated home and live in a climate that sees lows of about -17C. Using my heat pump I have reduced my winter heating bills by almost 45%. If you live in a much colder environment and/or have a poorly insulted home then your not going to see the same levels.
So in essence your correct, if you have a bad setup for a heat pump it will suck. But if you have a fairly modern home and so not see DEEP cold, the heat pump is great.
It is more about the government encouraging people to remove their gas boiler and put in a heat pump. That is really the essence of the video
In US you can get tax rebates for heat pumps without removing the gas furnace.
@@JSM-bb80u This varies state to state.
One year after this video was published Rodger, I realise you are clairvoyant ! Well done sir.
A good heatpump that is correct instaled gives you 5cop on a good day and 2-3cop when its cold and i mean realy cold and i live in sweden witch is realy cold but it sounds like your biggest problem is a lack of good building construction.. you sould realy try some insulation..
He does have a point about using gas. I bet gas is cheaper than electricity when used for heating.
@@juslitor No, because you need 5kw of gas for 5kw of heat while a heat pump will give you 15kw of heat. Modern heat pumps can actually go 7-11 to 1. That means gas would have to cost 1/5th or less per kwh to break even with a heat pump.
@@excitedbox5705 I take your word for it, I have no access to gas, so havent got the foggiest idea of pricing /kWh.
@@excitedbox5705 But what is the cost of 5kW of gas versus 5kW of electricity? If you burn gas to make electricity, it will take about 12kW of gas to make 5kW of electricity. That's due to a law of physics known as Carnot inefficiency. I think 5kW of gas is going to cost a lot less than 5kW of electricity.
@@incognitotorpedo42 You are correct about the conversion efficiency. You are comparing quantity with cost though. The energy company doesn't charge you 12kw of gas they charge you 5kw of electricity. It all depends on the energy source when comparing how green but with a COP of 5 or even 3 (at -20C) you would still be coming out ahead. I actually looked at some charts after posting and the expected savings in $ on your energy bill is 60% or higher depending on if you add hot water in addition to heating and 80% for new homes built around maximizing efficiency.
Thanks a bunch Roger. Young plumber was pushing the idea of HP and your video of old school truth and common sense has just saved me an enormous amount of grief. Thank you.
I live in Tennessee. I designed and built my house 31 years ago as a passive solar using a heat pump. Overall I’ve been very happy with the results. During the summer the unit runs much more than in the winter.
So it actually cost us more to cool than to heat. The difference is about half as much to heat due to how well the sun heats the house, providing it’s sunny out.
But I have gas logs in the fireplace, and they actually can hear the house nicely.
Mike
My house is similar to your with passive heat. I replaced old ac unit with 37 seer one. It's big for an ac unit BUT much larger coils and cycles less so cost to run is far less than older ones. Paied for itself in a few years. Cost little to run.
Combine it with solar panels and you get your cooling costs covered and also a big part of your heating costs!
Solar panels would help you run the heat pump during summer.
The other thing not mentioned is that, rather like the storage heaters of old, they need to be on in anticipation all the time. My daughter has one and for the house to be warm when she gets home from work it is on all day heating an empty house. This means also trying to predict the weather and wasting electricity. There’s a long time lag from cold so not efficient in that respect. The electricity consumption is frightening.
Here in Texas where the climate in winter is mild; the electric utilities hit us with very high monthly bills ( U$A 300 to 400 for a 3 bedroom 2 bath home); 1500 sq. ft.
I was thinking they sound a bit like the old storage heating system
And my electricity provider just increased my price per kWh by 33%, despite them buying all of their electricity from solar+wind+nuclear. And when the govt sees the loss of tax revenue from gasoline and diesel gallons dwindling, how will they recoup it from motorists in vehicles that are powered by electricity...? Hmmm, let me think...
@@hunchanchoc8418 The rats will figure another way. Even electric cars need to p
@@hunchanchoc8418 We're at their mercy!
Roger you have got it in one, I have been involved with gas and oil heating for the last 45 years and this technology is very much up to date and well developed ! Heat pumps will be a long time developing the high temperatures required for home heating.
Manufacture bluff heat pump will cost you more compress last about 7 to 9 years condenser fan 7 years service every gas charging if leak during very cold weather you need additional heater some are all ready fitted. Climate change is a part of political games
@@leod-sigefast I've got one. Absolutely hopeless for the British climate. They can work quite well where the temperatures rarely go below 10C. In a cold British winter they are pathetic. They absolutely can't be retrofitted to existing heating systems. Radiators need to be 3x as big.
@@bitdropout We use them in Colorado, where it frequently goes below whatever 10C is. ;) This video is based on wildly outdated info.
@@bitdropout We Swedes have a very tall country, where Scania has a climate not very different from the British; and also Norrbotten, with a climate very, very, different from yours. Fortunately you don't live there in your British house, even if I smile at the very thought... By the way, heat pumps function all over Sweden. That's because we are a rather cold, but technically gifted people, with quite a lot of common sense, which make us reject BS talk very fast.
@@n.g.h.calmarena7013 I thought that in Sweden Ground source heat pumps with bore holes are usually used not air source?
Your houses are also very thermally efficient unlike houses in the UK.
Heatpumps require a constant temperature to work effectively which is why a 200m deep borehole works. The air temperature in the UK varies vastly throughout the day this causes mayhem with the control strategy of an air source heat pump.
I have a great respect for Sweden and it's forward thinking regarding climate change.
On a different note, for such a small country, you produce some of world's best ice hockey players🏒
Back in 2012 I had an enquiry from a potential customer about installing a heat pump. I contacted two heat pump manufacturers, one said they were unsuitable for retrofitting old buildings because it is difficult to get the level of insulation required and the other said don't even think about replacing a gas or oil boiler with an HP as it would upset the customer when they got the electric bill. There is a barn conversion a few yards from me with a ground source HP that works fairly well for heating but it has at least 30cm of Cellotex in roof, walls and floors and a heat requirement of less than 12kw. The DHW is a different story that needs an immersion heater to boost the temperature. I believe the equipment cost was about £15k in 2007 plus installation cost.
I have had a similar response from manufacturers, they can't, hand on heart endorse them over gas but the recent rise in gas prices has moved the goal posts.
Colin, I agree with what you said. My up to date quotes are bonkers, well over £40k for a 19KW system. Without UFH, rads or any of the heating plumbing.
@@abbersj2935 How many properties have access to an electrical supply greater than 12Kw our village 36 properties 2 farms and a livery yard run off a 50KVA transformer. not much scope for expansion.
@@colinsandford4500 I agree, luckily at the beginning I had 3 phase installed. The pole was at the edge of my property, they charged less than a grand to connect up to my new electric meter cubicle. The cable from there to the house (60M of 25mm 5 core) was £800, plus groundworks costs. I've actually already bought and fitted (Some years ago, though not connected) a 45KW commercial LPG boiler, and was rethinking going over to a heat pump. The costs are prohibitive though and will probably just continue with the LPG bulk tank install.
You must use far less power where you are. My residence here in the US has 240V/ 200A service. That is 48KVA, for my house alone. I never use anywhere close to that, but it is available. The pole pig feeds a number of other residences, it must have at least 200 KVA capacity. @@colinsandford4500
Thank you for your video.
I'm just learning about them.
My home is all electric. There is no gas where I live, in the mountains of California.
I use a fireplace and electric radiator heaters.
The electric rates here have more than doubled in the past few years.
Now, the utility company is telling us about heat pumps as a less expensive way to heat in winter.
We already use air conditioners in the summer.
When I watched your video, as well as another from the U.K., my immediate thought was, I wonder why they automatically use a water reservoir and water radiators, if they cost thirty thousand pounds to install. As you said in your video.
I'm writing this two years after you recorded this. So my question might be obsolete.
I assume it's because the radiator infrastructure is already pervasive. Common. The most obvious and already intact system.
Here, the first thing that is presented are split vent systems, that blow air. You mount them on the wall.
But that is more of a single zone solution.
Maybe the water tank best serves a whole house.
We lived in the USA for over 25 years, and owned a couple of houses with air-source-heatpump gas-furnace hybrid systems. These work by using the heatpump when it's more efficient than the gas-furnace and via-visa-versa. Also, these are homes heated by forced-air which is common in the USA. It's very unfortunate that the UK housing stock is so poorly insulated, that's probably the first step any home owner should undertake in terms of bang-for-the-buck. With so much rental property in the UK there's not enough insentive for landlords to upgrade insulation., just my opinion. Really enjoyed this down to earth rant and I have to agree there's bound to be some leeches looking to make a killing out of this.
A lot of old houses are difficult to insulate properly as it often leads to damp problems. The air leaks were often by design to varying degrees.
@@simonpeggboard4004 with new insulation Tech. getting cheaper, and more efficient.. all type of house are successfully. My House is from 1950.. Insulated by using a New foam siding... If home owner become more educated about what is available.. A lot of people will find there is a lot of inexpensive Alternative... And Home owners need to make better.
@@jwetPouOu Cheap and efficient doesn't solve the inherent damp problems from the original design. Obviously a complete overhaul can fix any problem, but cost and planning laws often prohibit such actions.
@@simonpeggboard4004 To stop the damp you need bigger gaps under the doors of the rooms you block the air-vents in (& maybe a fanlight). The Air vents (up on the walls) were designed to stop the build up of carbon monoxide back in the day.
American summers are much hotter than British. How would that affect comparisons?
This is mostly complaints against older ones and against air to water heat pumps.
Modern air source mini splits have a COP of 3-5 and some keep that down to 5F.
As hard as it can be insulation is key, upgraded windows and putting it in the attic does a ton.
Just think what all that work would do with a gas boiler then....
it will burn a lot of gas @@factorylad5071, that you can not produce yourself and most countries cant either. But everyone can make electricity..
Also remember the COP of a gas boiler (0.8) vs heat pumps COP of 3-5...Some people just are against progress in any way and form, but they shouldnt come up with conspiracies to pull even more less intelligent people towards them.
@@jokellus3236 the really good gas furnace to air are 95%. Which means even with a low COP is better to burn it in a power plant than to heat your home directly
@@jokellus3236 modern condensing boilers have an efficiency of around 92%
Absolutely spot on Roger. At last someone with skill and knowledge is telling it exactly how it is. Great presentation backed by facts and good old honest truth. Cheers 👍
We get cheap heat pumps that don't work good in the negative. Plus snow and wind really make it hard to do a good job
I use my two laptops 💻 from 2008 to warm my room. The old pentium processor gets reds hot and the fans goes crazy! Best heat ever!
Use new laptops, mine some crypto.
Seriously though, I use some good old 2070's to heat my country house and it is cheaper than a heat pump this way because the price is negative.
You can't beat that with anything.
Initial cost is considerably higher though.
@@goury lol! Someone has just died in Thailand when laptop blew on their face!
@@desidesigning don't put your face too close to a laptop, it's bad for your health even if it doesn't explode.
Sadly soon when the wind don’t blow and we’ve given up gas your pc goes off! We are going to be sat in the dark, shivering, and cooking quorn over a vegan candle🤣🤣 Idiots have taken control.
@@steveb1856 Idiots are those who oppose nuclear power plants, including you
Let it be known ahead of time: This guy did NOT commit suicide in the near future.
If his brand new heated jacket explodes, we know who’s responsible!
Big Heat Pump!
@@rottenmeat5934 lol at Big Heat Pump
I do find it funny that there needs to be some sort of government conspiracy to make gas more expensive - it's running out in the North Sea, we have to import more, and more of it from further way - of course its going to get more expensive.
All part of the Great Reset... Like everything else dear old uncle fester Schwab says, utter bs, fight the lies, distrust all politicians
@@edc1569 Where do you think electric comes from.... In the UK 70% comes from burning gas. If you think you are saving the earth then you are not. Generating electric and transmitting it is about 50% efficient... Burning gas in your home is near 100% efficient.
This man is spilling facts. Here is my situation:
I have geo-thermal system installed, not talking about recently made popular heat pumps, we are talking about best of the best environment friendly option. The house size is 5,000 Sq.ft.
I live in southern B.C, Canada (Near Vancouver), In my area cost per unit of electricity is $0.14. My bill per two months cycle is around $1,200 from December to February. That is $600/month.
I switched to natural gas last year. I also got rid of my eclectic boiler and now its on demand natural gas hot water, now my natural gas bill in harsh winter was $210/month and my Electricity went to $125/month. Now my new combined monthly bill is $335. Those who question this video are doomed. I gave you my story, i 1000% agree with this gentleman.
Same, just about to get slapped with a $600 electricity bill this month due to heat pump running 100% duty cycle. With the gas unit would have only cost $70 tops.
Hi Roger, I've found several of your videos very helpful - but I've got to take you to task on this one. You're right about several things, and wrong about others. And a lot has happened in the 2 years since you made this video - it has become clearer that we must stop burning gas to heat our homes, and perhaps heat pumps have improved.
I had a heat pump installed 15 months ago - 7 months after I'd moved in. The decision was simple for me - the house was built 13 years ago and had reasonably good insulation and partial underfloor heating. But there was no heating in the bathrooms, and heating and hot water was via an electric boiler. Even before the Ukraine War electricity prices were soaring, and it was unaffordable. I live in rural Scotland and there is no natural gas available, I didn't want (or have space for) an oil boiler, and Scottish government grants for heat pumps are more generous than in England.
The heat pump has made our home massively more comfortable, and we have radiators in the bathrooms and a plinth heater in part of the kitchen where there is no underfloor heating - all linked into the underfloor heating system and driven directly from the ASHP (and not via a hot water "heat store" tank as you describe). The domestic hot water is heated to 50C, with a weekly anti-legionella cycle taking it over 60C - all directly from the ASHP (no immersion heater input). The system reports an overall SCoP of 3.74 (my own calculation is 3.76 - heating being 4.01 and DHW 2.68) - so in the northeast of Scotland, over the year, I'm getting nearly 4x more heat out than the electricity being put in (and last winter we had a cold December and January). I calculate (from the ofgen price cap) that our 3-bedroom detached bungalow costs a few hundred pounds less to heat each year than the “typical medium” house in the UK using gas & electricity. And it's quieter than the fridge.
But you are right that this will only work in a well insulated house - so we'd better get on insulating older properties (maybe with multifoil insulation? - ua-cam.com/video/ql_I3m-xbNU/v-deo.html&ab_channel=SkillBuilder). And you do need to be sure to get a good heat pump installer - some of the companies I spoke to really didn't give me any confidence. And a third thing: if you get a heat pump, you need to understand it works completely differently from traditional central heating - it's low-temperature "slow" heating that should be on in the "background" all the time, even when you go out for the day - the ASHP controller and room thermostats should control everything.
I think we agree on all of this but without underfloor heating, good insulation and draught proofing it is not as good.
I am happy to revisit this subject but Heat Geeks have not come back to us with an installation in an old house. They said they would but maybe they fear a hatchett job.
I'm in the trade and it seems pretty obvious that the first thing we should be doing is installing insulation into properties to make them as energy efficient as possible. This grant can go along way to reducing current heating bills, thus emissions, so that when this new technology is law, the majority of houses are already to up spec. It's like trying to run before you can crawl!
Save money ? A pipe dream ! Don't you remember when we were encouraged to go LED ? I did, reduced my lighting costs by ten fold. Funny thing though, the electric companies put their prices up by 16% and they've now gone up again. Do you really think the suppliers will let their profits slip?
I've noticed that the UK doesn't seem to insulate the outside of houses, when you can't fit insulation into homes you can add 4cm of insulation outside and then render over it. They do this in Germany and it works well.
@@michaelstimpson1137 I guess it depends where about's in the UK. Places which have houses made out of sandstone (Such as Bath) would not be an option plus the designs of a lot of houses make it very expensive to retro-fit. Like most things it would apply to some but not be the answer for all.
@@michaelstimpson1137 we still build double cavity walled houses. The cavity has to be ventilated to prevent damp. This removes almost all exterior insulation benefits. The only way is to empty a room and fit insulated plaster boards. Works beautifully but costly to do (why heat eighteen inches of stone wall?)
It seems like those people glittering themselves to the M25 were right. Out the money into insulating homes!
My 1930's built semi has loft insulation, the walls insulated and the sub floor has been insulated and struggles to keep warm in winter using a gas combi boiler, so a heat pump will not have a chance of adequately heating the home. Great, informative video Roger - I have just subscribed to the Channel (just saved me several thousand pounds).Cheers mate!
Maybe recheck the Insulation in the Loft it's recommended that the New standard is 30cms for same... if you have not a lot in the loft, you could be leaking a lot of heat straight through same... even having the Rads power Flushed or firstly even, JUST rebalanced your Rads might help....giving better heat transfer across those fellows...
Also, are your windows double insulated, and how are the walls insulated?
Our previous house was the same age, single glazed, and our gas boiler heated it no probs.
My house is getting on…..about 400 yrs old! Walls are granite, 80cm thick. I put in (Myself!) underfloor heating and a Frisquet combi gas boiler 👍🏻 I also put in a wood burner in the chimney 20 kw for when it’s really 🥶 and can maintain 21+ degrees on those evenings in front of a glowing 🔥. Daytime I find woolly jumpers work just fine!…. Politician’s…. Leave me alone!
I've heard that there is a system that uses solar energy to grow fuel and then you can move that fuel into your home and use it to produce heat exactly when you want it. Servicing is done once a year with a long brush up the chimney
That is science fiction I 'wood' take it with a pinch of salt
👁👄👁
thanks Mark. well said. we have always heated with wood (white poplar) out here on the farm in western Manitoba. And the trees are growing faster than we can cut them down so sustainability is not an issue. But I don't think this scales up to towns or cities.
@@johnsharonwhitaker9242 amen. Lots of people have wood burners in the UK, but they kick out a lot of harmful particles in towns & cities. Not gonna lie and say they're horrible or that they don't make things feel homely, but they don't scale. I frequently smell them when I'm walking around my city. My gran & grandad ran coal & wood fires. It feels utterly nuts that we're heading back to ancient, dirty technology.
If you're out in the sticks then knock yourself out, but it's not the way forward for town/city living.
Brilliant vid for UK. I live in a listed house, 1m thick stone walls, it's a complete nightmare. What will happen to all the listed property in uk, or rather their occupants.....?
Same here, think we’re be exempt
Mostly, I’m worried about Roger’s blood pressure!
he's probably got a regulator in to control it ;)
Do you think it is possible to warm a house with Roger's rage?
@@daniel__clark 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I can picture the new range of combo boilers now... Complete with industry leading venting 🤣
@@daniel__clark laughs
@Charles Vane ~I wouldn’t dream of telling him how Inflation works and how Fiat currency is the biggest fraud in human history.~ I know it's a fraud, but so effing what?
I'd rather people realise how big corporations have taken effective control of government, for the sole purpose to increase wealth inequality.
Really pleased to have watched this, given me a small insight as to what a heat pump does and how inefficient it would be in my old Victorian house. Nice one👍
John Humphrys in the Daily Mail fell foul of this Heat Pump Mania. A good read. (22.10.21.)
@@patagualianmostly7437 just read it, wish we had an honest and common sense party to vote for. 🙄
@@patagualianmostly7437 John Humphries didn't live in that house, it was a second home, that's not what heat pumps should be used for.
Then move to a new house"
@@robuk3723 well that’s a helpful comment(not), let me see, stamp duty, solicitors fees, surveys, logistics of moving, finding another house, re- establishing employment, just for a heat pump system that probably will probably be obsolete in a few years when something better comes along, remember government advice on Diesel engines? Maybe you can afford all the above, but I can’t.
I’m a heating engineer and I would never install the air source heat pump in an old house doesn’t make financial sense…
It only works in brand new developments with high levels of insulation.. but once again costs tend to spiral out of control because in these new efficient homes you need to start to run some form of ventilation system with heat recovery.. homes need to be ventilated to ensure you do not have issues in the future with mould or damp areas in your house due to the home being well insulated.
So to be honest you’re better off trying to spend that money in increasing the energy efficiency of the fabric of the building..
Yes mate. Its not talked about enough the need for some form of managed ventilation when you upgrade insulation. Nearly every room needs significant work and making good! The cost per house is massive!
“Brand new house with loads of insulation “ ! 😂 so that’s not in the UK then?
Just pleased there are some people who make sense and are impermeable to the forced marketing wank. Pisses me off that the monthly gas rag is a marketing brochure for this technology and when I pulled my inspector on it some years ago he replied “it’s the future”. Well Boris wants to evolve this technology so we can sell it internationally. We’re the guinea pigs paying for the privilege which will make somebody wealthy. I hope they can succeed with Hydrogen production.
What fabric/building work would you recommend on older houses?
I'm in a brand new home right now. Its great in the winter but flippin hot right now. I might need air conditioning.
I live in Canada and we no not use them .
Gas forced bown air furnaces is our system . Its dark at 5pm there is no sun to get heat from on cold nights . This thing can extract heat from -15c outside air?
Of course it can, thermodynamics doesn't care if you find it cold. As long as the température is above the absolute zero (-273°C) you can transfer energy. 2/3 of houses in Norway are using heat pumps.
@@AG-kh8dj I see what you mean.
So -274c is impossible ?
Correct. @@Crashed131963
Person from Scandinavia here. We have had heat pumps as the de-facto standard heating option for 10-15 years in Scandinavia, which means that almost all houses nowdays run on heat pumps. People are happy with them, and they work well and are cost efficient. So I don’t undestand the argument with low temperatures and bad efficiency in the UK - we only have such a problem during the coldest winter days that never happen in the UK . With respect to the tap water, it is just simply a imagenative problem that you can’t combine energy efficient tap water, comfort and legionella-safe. Come visit us here in Scandinavia and you’ll see. I fully acknowledge that British houses are not well insulated, but that means that A) houses shall be insulated B) the heat pump needs to be of greater dimension.
It’s sad to see how this video builds distrust to techonlogy and authorities.
I am curious what type of system is connected to your Heat pump..? Is it water.. ie underfloor piping or Radiators.. or.. Air warming like the American 'Central air' with lots of box ducting. Your country (assuming Sweden) generally has an overall yearly lower temperature than us in the UK and you have designed and build property (and indeed your infrastructure) to cope with it..
We are not so organised here and any extreme weather tends to flummox us and everything shuts down..
Also, UK houses dont tend to have suitable places to mount the main pump box and the fan can be surprisingly noisy.
I think newbuilds are best suited to benefit from Heatpump tech where the property layout can be re-designed..
Alternatively , put it in the bike shed that we were forced to build..
@@embryonica In general modern houses have the heat pumps connected to floor heating, while older houses re-uses the radiators that were already installed before the era of heat pumps.
I acknowledge that the placement of heat pumps might be trickier in areas with dense buildings/small yards, but often it can be solved.
Perfect response. The technology works. I've seen it working and so have the people in Sweden and Denmark
Heat pumps are worthless in cold weather. Heat pumps barely work at 50 degrees. You mistake your opinions as facts. My kin installs heat pumps for 50 years. People love to brag, I got a magical heat pump.
I have been to a few Scandinavian houses. I said to them I'll keep my jacket on while they were running around barefoot in a t-shirt.
Great well educated Rant thanks Roger. I’ve heard nothing good about these pumps over recent years, very expensive and not nearly as warm as the traditional gas boiler.
A friend of mine bought a house with a heat pump and he now has a warm house and lower bills, and a new gas boiler.
That is probably true, but also a part of your heating problems.
@@CrusaderSports250 LOL.
There is a lot of false numbers going round about heat pumps, one of those numbers is the cost... On the radio I keep hearing the figure £10k, that is BS, the minimum you are looking at is £20k and then you will need underfloor, so you are looking much closer to £50k - £90k for a realistic system.
One big thing I havn't heard anyone mention yet, is replacement... Your boiler needs replacing every 10-20 years at a cost of £2k ... Your heatpump system won't last any longer, but costs £20k to replace.
@@cuckingfunt9353 You must be referring to ground source heat pumps. My son put in an air source unit that cost about $1300 Cnd. This is a new house, 1000 sq. ft., super insulated. Eastern Ontario winters get pretty cold. His total electric bill for heat, lights, hot water, etc. for January last year was $200. And the house is warm, and in the summer it is cool.
I’ve worked in big houses over the last 20 years, and seen these being fitted. No customer was ever pleased with the results.
My first experience of heat pumps was with an 'early adopter' nearly forty years ago, and they said the same thing then - " It's not so good when its cold outside and you need it most". Little changes!
Maybe the fitters didn't know what they were doing...
@@jrisner6535 Im afraid you have to accept for a lot of situations these pumps do not work. Certainly not in all the circumstances they are fitted in. Nothing to do with the fitters but more to do with the type of houses or the location of the only available space for the heat pump. I live in a village with old style housing, both thatched and cob walled. Totally useless heating. Do they still qualify for the grant? Of course they do.
@@dutydruid9375 heat pumps work fine for those buildings, if they're well designed
@@thetessellater9163 A lot has changed in 40 years, but the laws of thermodynamics have not.
Just been quoted £16.900 for air source heat pump installation on a well insulated 1950s bungalow .
My next door neighbour has stopped using his air source , and having a vies man combi gas boiler re-installed .
It kind of tells the whole story !
We are hearing this a lot. It would be good to interview your neighbour, maybe on Zoom to hear their story.
Going with a ZEB storage heater myself, but won't get the £15k - £7.5k discount
these prices are just bonkers for air to air pumps.. what sieze house you got? My grandparent have a 1960's suburban house, used to have direct electricity heating, they installed a air to air heatpump for less then 3000 euros, covering 90% of their heating needs over the year. Their house walls have less then 10cm of insulation, added insulation to the attic for another 2-3000 euros and their heating costs have gone down with 70% that heat pump payed itself off in a few years. Air to air pumps for a 100 sqm house should not cost that much, and in the cases you need bigger pump.. here people tend to buy a second or even third pump for basement or if they got more floors. If your house consist of many rooms, air to air is also less effective. If you got a water radiator system and your house is big or many rooms, air to water is the way to go, or even better geothermal, but more costly investment.
@@mycide UK is air to water pumps generally
@@JoolsUK price makes more sense then. Is it common with circulating water radiators in UK? Gas heated or oil still common? Here houses between 60- late 80s many houses had direct electricity, giving little options to air to air, specially town and city houses. Clean and cheap power back then 100% hydro and nuclear, we didn't export more then what we didn't need. tax payers built all energy here and now we get to pay insane prices for our own power that is cheap to produce.. something rotten.
A heating solution that works best when you don't need the heating on, and hardly at all when you need it most - brilliant.
Great video this guy explained it all brilliantly I've just spent 3grand on a new combi boiler it's staying where it is sorry greta
I´ve had an air to water heatpump for 12 years. Before that i had an oil burner. With the heatpump I reduced expenses for heating with 50 %. No government money was involved in the installation back then.
I've got a 7kw aircon unit that also heats. In the winter it is great, costs about 30p an hour to run. It doesnt heat the full house, but it heats the room i'm in and the rest of the house a bit. My gas boiler gobbles money, so im more than happy with the heat pump. Oh, and it's great in summer too! Nice cool air when everyone else is opening windows and complaining how hot the house is..
The U.K government is trying to discourage air con units being fitted. The idea is to save energy because we are still a long way off having green electricty so air con will be powered by gas fired power stations.
Was ready to type in a rant about how BS this video was, but then I checked my scandinavian insulated house privileges. You are correct, they work wonders for me, even in -20. And now in the summer I get a cool +20 inside, while it is +30 outside. Heatpumps are highly recommended.
The best way to heat a house using electricity is an air to air heat pump, from the likes of panasonic, floor and wall mounted indoor units, they chuck out serious heat, and can easily heat an old draughty house no problem, and are extremely efficiant, 5 to 1. The best combo, is to have air to air heating, with a separate air to water heatpump heating only your hot water cylinder using a heatpump designed for just that, from the likes of cool energy, that heats the tank up to 60 degrees with no need for a booster element, an then switches off untill the tank temp falls below a set threshold it switches on. Ive been running this system for 7 years now, and its really cheap to run, and cheap and quick to install with zero maintenance, This combined with a few cheap roof mounted grid tie microinverter solar panels is the holy grail, every home should be changing over to this. Using air to water in a retrofit to heat an old house is as roger said a very bad idea. There is really really poor understanding of heat pumps in this country,
Actually this is not the best way to heat a house. The best way is with a geothermal heat pump. Way better efficiency.
@@volf4o how much does geo cost to install in your area?
For me, a 12.6KW air-air system for nordic conditions cost $3400 including install, before any incentives (ending up at $2300 iirc)
If i were to dig the hole myself, i could have gotten 13KW geo for $14k (12k after incentives)
Even ignoring what i did (had $15k, bought air-air and spent rest on solar panels), i'd never recoup that cost in the efficiency difference between the two
Might be different in climates where air-air meets large hurldes (like coastal regions where the salt corrodes them) but this is my experience
In the USA and in Canada we have a lot of air conditioners that are only used about 2 months of the year the thing that's needed is for laws banning non reversing air conditioners turning them into heat pumps to heat and cool the house and we need air conditioning technicians who are willing to change over the old one's but no they'd only make 500 dollars more or less for the conversion instead of the over a thousand they make on commission on a new one plus the cost of removing the old one and the installation of the new one well over 2 grand for an hour or two of labor my ac unit probably has 4 months at the most of run time so I'd love to upgrade it love it even more I'f i could add water sourced heating and cooling to it as we have all the heat and cooling we need 15 feet below our feet but I'm not able to find someone to upgrade my old unit
Heatpumps for tap water makes no sense. I'd rather use a small pellet burner for that.
@@volf4o haha, no the best way is to live in the Caribbean
I wonder if you could hook up Roger to a heating system? Get him worked up on a chilly day and you’ll be toasty in no time 😋
Hahaha!
Hahaha top man
Would be more efficient to just burn him.
Good old Roger he's passionate about what he does, I know exactly where he's coming from.. we are being fed a load of bull shit and herded like sheep, we are not being told the truth by anyone in any matter of concern regarding money and the planet.
Heat pumps work in Canada down to around -30C. Even here it only occasionally gets that cold during a “cold snap”. Electricity is generated through emission-free hydroelectric power. People may be confused about heat pumps ability to perform in really cold environments but that’s most likely due to early take-up. The technology has vastly improved since then.
In Canada they don't make you get rid of your old heater, and almost nobody uses a boiler to heat their home. When the natural gas heat pumps become more common, I will consider one. Cost estimates are in Ontario you only save money with a heat pump vs natural gas it you can disconnect you gas service to stop paying the administrative fee. Even then it is only a few hundred a year. Not enough to ever pay for the investment.
If you have a good southern wall, install a passive heat solar panel and you'll get an instant savings.
I have used heat pump over 18 years now. First one lasted 15 years. I replaced it because newer has much lower temperatule limit and efficiency. I use also fireplace to add warm here. This is in Finland. Where winters are much colder than UK. And houses have proper insulation for the climate. I have no complaints of heat pumps at all. Its cheapest and easiest method of makin warm air inside. We don't use gas for heating here. Those who did were little in trouble because gas was flowing from ruzzia. That changed over night.
How is it emissions free, where do you think our electricity comes from ????? The hole in the wall lol they burn 🔥 fossil fuel to generate the electricity in my Canada so dream on 😃😃🤔😂😉
As you predicted - energy prices especially gas are going through the roof despite having a vast new gas field off Scotland that they wont open up. Go green go Broke.
this a bit small minded fossil isn't the future we needed to get off them over a decade ago
It looks live your prediction has just become a reality.
Not really a prediction though, this is just a fact and facts are always the truth!!
Couldn't agree more. Years ago, as refrigeration engineer, I serviced them. When it got really cold, they were useless at heating premises.
YEARS ago. I guess your car still performs like a model T with 4hp. Modern heat pumps can hit 11 to 1 COP and 3-5 on a cold day. The energy difference you can achieve is the difference between ambient and the boiling point of the refrigerant, which means you would break even with gas at around -40 degrees C. at a Wet bulb temp of -30C you still achieve a COP of 1.5. It depends on the refrigerant you use, and the boiling point of CO2 is much lower than anything you will see south of the North Pole.
Compelling demonstration. I live in a terraced house and changed my boiler last year, Baxi garanteed 10 years. Cost me under 2k for new boiler and installation. There was no way I would have entertained the idea of a heat pump. There are nearly 7 million terraced houses in the UK where heat pumps just cannot practically be installed for one reason or another apart for the insane price and dubious technology. The noise, the proximity between houses. I try to picture every house with a heat pump in my street. What a nightmare that would be! My plumber told me he recently went to a small house where a heat pump had been installed. He said it looked a complete mess with pipes sticking out everywhere. Just like you said about heat pump engineers who are not trained for this type of work. What a con !
In the US, we had a big push for home insulation before heat pumps became popular. Don't forget your double paned windows! I actually miss oil heat, because the temperature from the grate is nice and toasty.
Here in France all new builds get the grants to install underfloor heating, maximum insulation in the property and heat pumps. I think this is the only real way to get the benefits, on new builds and not retro fitting in older property's.
Really depends how efficient and insulated your individual house is and what climate you're in. My 1950s home in Canada could definitely benefit from a small heat pump. More so for air conditioning in the summer and to lessen the load on my boiler in the winter. No need to go big. About $3000 would do nicely. Just don't take the government handout and keep the backup heating for the really cold nights. 🤷♂️
Been living in Paris region of France since 1999. Back around 2005 long before the current trend for heat pumps we were convinced to install one along with a lot of neighbouring by a door to door salesman. Supposedly from EDF (Electricity de France). It had the classic box outside & one defuser on the wall above the kitchen door. It was sold on the basis that this was what shops had over their entrance doors. You remember when you used to go into the supermarket & walk through a wall of hot air. As many houses in France our house was heated with electric radiator. Very dry heat. This because France has 50 plus nuclear power stations to give it an historical energy independence from the bigger oil producing nations. It also Hy we have a very good electric train network including the TGV. Just the heat pump box cost us 10k€. The subversion scam was setup differently. It was a long term loan. So the heat pump was deemed to reduce your electricity consumption but instead of reducing you bill the savings went to paying off a long term loan for the pump. The installation was done by cowboys we us having to make good the mess. The fans became noicey. You had to leave doors open around the house for the heat to circulate. Then when we came to move house a couple of years later the long term loan was still years from paying off. Something that you could hope to pass onto the buyer. So essentially the new owners got what ever small benefit there was to be had from the hear pump & even that was debatable & we continued paying off the loan for nearly 10 years after moving. Any loan is an issue in France as everything is taken into account by the banks when applying for a mortgage. If ever there was a case for be miss sold something this is it. The home where we had it had these electric radiators in every room, a wood burning stove (insert) in the living room & a large immersion heater fir hot water (very common in France). All continued to be used. The house was mid terrace from the 8O's so concrete block walls with polystyrene foam backed plasterboard lined walls & fairly good Rockwall loft insulation. We now live in a 300 plus year old house with meter thick stone walls & no insulation. Gas combi boiler & cast iron radiators doing it all. Gas pipes were being installed everywhere until ver recently. We have popup cowboy firms busily lining or externally cladding people's homes with flammable foam insulation for 1€ basically financed by France's big oil companies like Total to offset there continued solution. Bought a diesel car because we we encouraged to do so that soon won't be able to drive into Paris & Ill be forth nought. All a bit crap all this. People want to do the right thing but it's all a massive scam that could bankrupt ordinary people & leave them with no proper heating. Only going to excelerate now to avoid Russian gas.
@@warrensteel9954 yes this os the best way to utilize heat pumps in very freezing temps -15 Celsius or lower. Have a wood fireplace for those times.
@@Mike-kr5dn unfortunately there's a huge crackdown on wood fireplaces. Between municipalities and insurance companies it's getting cost prohibitive to install or even keep existing ones.
@@davidpike3464 that type of scam is going on right now in the USA but with solar systems, I see multiple advertisements every day for solar installations where you will get money back after the installation but they never mention the long term loan you cannot get out of
My house was built in 2008 with heatpump, never had any issues run's like a dream. Does the hot water and heating can't fault it, had it serviced twice in 10 years.
Good to know. Do you have a buffer tank?
I think the point is that you have a modern built house. Alot were build 30-40 years earlier
Same for me, built a well insulated house in2014 fitted ochner heat pump very cheap to run... Guy who sold it to me said only fit with under floor heating they do not preform well at high temp heat points.
@@SkillBuilder yes buffer tank for the hot water, once a week it uses emersion heater to prevent legonaiires
@@GK-qc5ry yes true I know someone in a old house who now gets damp issues
In the US, you can get a heat pump rebate and still have a furnace. I live in NH in a re-insulated 1860s home, and I have a Bosch dual-fuel forced air system (heat pump/gas furnace). I can configure a balance point to set when each system kicks in. I have found it less expensive to run the heat pump down to around 10° F (the heat pump functions to -5°F ), it heats well but the output air is not as hot as the gas furnace (~ 95° vs 120°). Another plus with the heat pump is we now have central AC. I also have solar which offsets the cost.
And don't forget that once everyone has a heat pump running on electric, what do you think will happen to electricity prices?
Once everyone has no choice, the price will go through the roof.
Great and honest video thanks.
And just think of the noise of all those heat pumps in the street running at the same time, getting louder and louder as they get older. Not to mention the power cuts in the winter when the heat pumps and the electric vehicle chargers all going full pelt in the evening bring down the grid. Boris is a clown. This idiotic strategy needs a major kickback from the British people, and it needs it now!
@@yvonnekennedy9381 There are several air source heat pumps along my road. They are all very quiet.
@@rogerphelps9939 The fans get noisier as they get older. The closer in proximity they are to each other the overall noise will be worse.
Top rant Roger .
Remind’s me of encouraging people to buy diesel car’s .
How’s that worked for everyone
I wouldn’t drive anything other than diesel!
@@raftonpounder6696 Nor me!
@@TheLemonadedrinker Probably cause you two have been huffing too many fumes.
pretty good actually
Surely that had nothing to do with an industry that lied through its teeth..
Oh wait, that's exactly what Dieselgate was..
OMG Roger... you hit the nail on the head with this one. You are the first person on UA-cam that I actually 'liked' and 'subscribed' to. I lived in the USA for 27 years and have a lot of experience with heat pumps (as a consumer). In some places they work great but mostly they are crap and very expensive. Over there, they are set up to work in reverse and provide A/C in the summer too.
I lived in a fairly new apartment building in Wichita, Kansas but the buiding was built like cr**p. In the winter (-10 celcius outside) the heat pump was supplemented by a 3Kw electric coil that cost me a FORTUNE to keep the place even tepid warm... and I had to run it 24/7.
I just subbed to this dude too. About time someone told the truth about heat pumps.
-10 its nothing
-40 this is hard what your heat pump of $$!$@
How your heat pump Will deal with it
@@davidfrederic5787 Luckiy I was in Wichita during one of their mild winters. Typically it's around -20 with 60 mph winds. It's the only place where I've experienced my car being totally iced over with 1/2 inch of clear ice all over it. Hail storms with hail the size of golf balls are common. Every auto body shop in town specializes in hail damage repair. Dealers often have to total hail damaged cars that were out on their lots when a storm came through. Almost every building has a tornado shelter and earthquakes are common too. I experienced more earthquakes in Wichita during 18 months than I did in San Francisco in over 20 years. If you ever get offered a job in Wichita... turn it down!
I apreciate the comments that use °F or °C .
Couldn't agree more. I've been in the commercial heating, ventilation and air conditioning business for over 30 years and it's a con.
All refrigeration systems like this do is move heat from one place to another. Like a fridge in the kitchen, air conditioning takes heat from inside and loses it outside, heat pumps also work the other way round, taking heat from the outside and putting it inside. Aircon will work great in the winter as you're losing heat into cold outside air, but that's when you don't need it anyway. Similarly heat pumps work best in the summer as you're losing cold into hot outside air, when again you don't need it. When you do need it, it's hopelessly inefficient. Radiator temperatures are warm at best in the winter, not like your nice hot gas boiler system at almost double the water flow temperature. Hydrogen gas boilers make far more sense with zero emissions.
Mine works just fine. Admittedly they need more thought when designing a new system than a fossil fuel boiler. But we have to get away from fossil fuels. Hydrogen is even more inefficient as you need to include wastage in creating it from electricity and transporting it. There are 7.2 million Heatpumps installed in France at the last count. Those old Chateaus bought up by the Brits are pretty drafty.
I agree hydrogen sounds far more promising and realistic. Of course, same argument as with cars, the "vs electric" debate - which themselves aren't the silver bullet people think they are, far from it and are a bit of a con quite frankly. They've spent most of their carbon credits just in their creation, not to mention batteries, as we well know lose their efficiency too and need replaced and I doubt there's enough rare minerals in existence to meet the needs of everyone once-over given what we're potentially planning, let alone consistent replacements - they barely get recycled now either due to the complex and costly nature of doing so. We've all heard about the mountains of e-waste and it's just sitting there so it must be costly to recycle.
So as I understand it, the issue with obtaining hydrogen is extracting it from the water in the first place, right? Which itself requires... heat (invariably a fossil fuel). However, if we can find a practical method of splitting the H from the O with a respectable return in efficiency then we're far more likely to actually develop a commodity for heating homes on a national scale. Heat pumps powered by wind or solar (that's what they imagine) is pie in the sky, unless of course we reconsider nuclear (conventional fission). But the greenie lunatics don't like nuclear. Maybe fusion but that's 20 years off, again, and maybe again.
@@LOOKINVERTED splitting the Hydogen from water is easy, requires electricity. The process isn’t 100% efficient. It would only work if we had cheap electric.
@@LOOKINVERTED Totally agree with your comments. Re electric cars (off topic I know), a petrol station with 12 pumps and 5 minutes per fill up/payment can in theory serve 144 people per hour flat out. A site with 12 rapid charging points can serve an average of about 15 per hour, provided they only want about 80% charge each. Bad enough until you look at the electrical load of 12 rapid chargers - many times more amps than 12 pumps and almost certainly more than the site's electrical supply can support, so you'd need a bigger supply...... then you'd have more loading on the national grid and substations.... bigger required again, then you'd need the extra generating capacity which we haven't got (especially on a windless dull day!) ..... and that's without the people who can't charge at home as they live in a flat or a terraced house with no drive. 'We'll put charging points on the lamp posts' they cry.... sorry, a rapid high-current 3-phase charger on a small single phase cable designed to run a light? Total madness.
@@neilanderson2374 Right, I've heard of electrolysis, fair point, I wasn't sure if that was simply a laboratory-type process for selective applications but never enough energy that can create an abundance? I'm no scientist, that much is probably obvious but you're still converting one energy source into another no matter the method being used of course and thermodynamics suggests you're always losing to some extent, it's how much isn't it. Just not sure on the type of return you'd get using that method? Speculating here but running a windmill or solar (for instance) to create the electrical power, surely that wouldn't sufficiently convert hydrogen in suitable quantities for such an industrial undertaking? Nuclear energy yes, but that type of output is obviously a far cry from using these supposed renewable technologies to do the same. Interesting debate none the less.
I've been using heat pumps for years and my flat is fully air conditioned and I personally think they are really really good really effective and really cheap to run.
Could do well in a flat surrounded by cosy warm neighbours, not so well in a semi with lots of cold external walls and a roof.
@@benedictearlson9044 That's not how that works, and if you're a builder that's studied heat, you'd know that the amount you'd have to heat your flat has almost nothing to do with your neighbors'.
Turns out thermodynamics isn't as simple as a guess.
Roger A.K.A. Skill builder doesn't know much about the math behind heat pumps and probably never ventured to do research it. As a result 1.18 million people have watched this nonsense video & 35K have left a like.
@@amateurwizard Nonsense I'm afraid. In a converted semi your neighbours heating has a big impact on yours, and I have gas bills to prove that. In poorly insulated properties external walls are heat sinks and most brick built houses in the UK are poorly insulated. Your N American experience doesn't go far with brick built houses suffering a cool and damp oceanic climate.
@@benedictearlson9044 As an HVAC research engineer, I can confirm this. Walls are very conductive if not insulated. Most of the research work I do is in South Asia where we don't heating since our winters are still warmer than your summer but it's crazy the amount of heat flux that moves across concrete walls in the summer. I tested experimentally that in a small bedroom at the top floor, almost 3000 Watts of heat enters just through the roof that's getting direct sunlight during peak summer hours.
@@Intellechawwal : too true - shading external surfaces from direct sun (in hot climates) is so important in reducing heat gain - delaying heat entry to the "insulating layer".. Winter in Europe works in reverse - but with insulated walls the feeble sun doesn't heat much, pumping daytime (or ground) heat inside is the solution (lower energy usage than resistive or gas heating)- just need quieter compressor units, or enough thermal storage so the pump doesn't run at night to disturb the neighbours...
They DO work, in the right circumstances. Just over 10 years ago I lived in a new house that was built with an air source heat pump. It worked brilliantly, heated the water & house brilliantly, even when the outdoor unit was covered in snow. No underfloor heating. No gas for cooking. my electric bill was about £60 a month.
I now live in a 1930s semi, with solid walls, I know a heat pump system will not work in this house. G&E bill is currently £250 a month!
You obviously werent listening to the video.
They dont work in under insulated, older type houses
@@nicholashardy8735 you obviously didn't read what I wrote.
@@Technaudio what will your gas and electricity bill be in 2023?! 😮 ours is about £250 every quarter but we live in a 2 bed semi, it’s old brick walls but I believe it’s had extra insulation put in at some point and isn’t as cold as the 2010 built 4 bed, 3 story house we lived in for 11 years because that house was built like shit, draft everywhere, crappy little radiators being fed by a communal boiler into a ‘heating manifold’ under the stairs. Cost a fortune and it never got all that warm! The house we live in now feels much warmer so far.
To be fair though you can’t really compare price from 10 years ago to now. You’d need to compare the KW.
We live in a 1900 3 bed semi and were £100 a month 2 years ago and are now £290.
@@Technaudio Stop promoting the green bullshit