Is Hand-Wired Actually Better?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
- Since the beginning of time, the "Hand-Wired vs PCB" debate has polarized the global guitar community. Today, I'm talking to the guitar gear industry's top experts to put an end to the Hand-Wired and PCB (printed circuit board) debate!
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
00:00 Introduction
00:51 Our Objective
01:45 The Pros!
02:26 Reliability (pedals)
04:58 Pros Weigh in (JHS, Keeley)
06:50 Serviceability (Pedals)
08:47 Pros weigh in (JHS, Keeley)
09:57 Longevity (pedals)
12:10 Pros Weigh In (JHS, Keeley)
13:28 Surface Mount vs Through Hole
16:08 Pros Weigh In (JHS, Keeley)
17:19 What About Amps?
17:45 Reliability (Amps)
20:01 Pros Weigh In (Friedman, Suhr)
21:59 Serviceability (Amps)
23:12 Pros Weigh in (Friedman, Suhr)
24:08 Build Quality (Amps)
25:24 Pros Weigh In (Friedman, Suhr)
27:23 Sound Quality (Amp)
28:26 Pros Weigh in (Friedman, Suhr)
30:17 What Did We Learn?
32:18 Thanks for Watching!
⬇ GET A ONE-ON-ONE TONE CONSULTATION WITH THE RIG DR. ⬇
bit.ly/2WhiliW
FOLLOW US
Instagram: / vertexeffects
Facebook: / vertexeffectsinc
Website: www.vertexeffects.com/
⬇BUY VERTEX PEDALS⬇
bit.ly/3kkZPOT
⬇PODCAST⬇
//apple// apple.co/36dSQzK
//spotify// spoti.fi/2WGLku8
⬇DIY BUFFER DIAGRAMS & TEMPLATES⬇
bit.ly/3gu02hU
⬇RECOMMENDED MATERIALS⬇
//buffers// bit.ly/3kpcFf0
//pedalboards// bit.ly/3B9DVFk
//power supply// bit.ly/3B9aD9D
//cables// bit.ly/3jktF7b
//cable & pedal management// bit.ly/3mCJxUe
//pedalboard tools// bit.ly/3B7AEGq
CREDITS:
Host/Co-Production: Mason Marangella
Video: Nico Sotomayor
Video Editing: Victor San Pedro
Co-Production/Design: Mason Mejia
Audio Engineering: Hunter Harrison
#Handwired #GuitarPedals #RigDoctor
Did you learn something about hand-wired or PCB-equipped guitar gear? Tell us in the comments below!
Excellent video! 👍🏻 All the corksniffers really need to see this one!😆
Pcb vs smd next!
@@xAD21x we talked about that here.
@@marktestroote8668 thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsIncis this a video?
In short, PTP, handwired, whatever you want to call it, will always be easier to service than PCB. If you plan on using something in the studio it doesn’t really matter, eq a PCB amp to your liking if it sounds that different. Some of the all time greats are PCB, basically all your pedals are PCB, but if you spend the extra $$ up front for a PTP amp, your tech will be much happier when it comes to servicing, and more than likely cheaper as well.
I think if you're generalizing high volume PCB amps, yes this is true, but a lot of time this comparison is made of simple amps to complex PCB amps that really couldn't be done with handwiring anyway. Say like comparing a Bogner Ecstasy 101B to a Tweed Deluxe. Of course the Bogner is going to be harder to work on with multiple channels and relay switching, etc. - this really can't be made handwired and do all it does in the package size that it does it. If we're looking at more 1:1 amps both PCB and PTP Handwired, you're likely to see less failures of the main boards on the PCB or solder joint issues, and if the pots and tube sockets are wired off the main board you're likely to see fewer overall failures than the PTP amp. Simple circuits like a Tweed Fender PCB or PTP are going to be negligible for tech time they're just not much to them both being equally well made. Maybe it'll add 10% more time to remove the PCB? A lot of the issues with re-work to PCBs that are crap is the traces pull up and the board just can't be re-heated without damage, this isn't true of tick traces on a quality board.
keep in mind that a lot of PCB amps have bad PCB designs.
Causing heat between components.
@@VertexEffectsInc absolutely. great point. Sweet video too Mason nice job getting all those pros on board for it
When it comes to reliability, longevity, and repairability, hand soldered still has major benefits.
The biggest difference becomes evident when things go wrong. Let the smoke out of a hand wired amp and it can be repaired. Pcb’s on the other hand can be damaged beyond repair which, assuming the company cannot replace the board, makes the product obsolete.
They can burn, traces can be damaged, the copper can lift from the board,they can become conductive. They are susceptible to mechanical fatigue and spikes in current flow from power supply surges. They are sensitive to moisture and heat levels. These things are true of individual components as well, but in a hand wired amp, individual components can be replaced. Board often can’t.
The point is that printed boards fail. Its not that they are more likely to fail than hand wired gear, it just that when they fail in a big way, your older or discontinued gear is headed for the trash bin rather than the repair shop. Just ask any tech who has had to call and deliver the bad news that their customers gear is not viable for repair because the costs associated would exceed the cost of a few new amps.
Hand soldered has more errors than machine soldered, there is no dispute on that other than from someone who doesn't understand manufacturing. Bad PCBs can be damaged beyond repair, yes that's true in poor designs. As Suhr said, it's not the method, it's the implementation. There are plenty of mediocre to bad examples of PCB amps and they overwhelmingly tend to be more budget amps so we associate PCB amps as cheap. Trace thickness can be called out to be equal to any wire gauge you want, as can component distances so you get the equivalent to a wire cut the same length between the same components every time. The only places where you really need to get away from PCBs on amps IMO is on the heater wires - those should be hand wired. Otherwise, if you are comparing a well make handwired amp, to an equally well made PCB amp like Suhr, Fuchs, Friedman, Rivera, etc. the issues you point out aren't present. You can't compare a poor quality PCB amp and represent it as the standard. It's just not true.
@@VertexEffectsInc you are right on everything you’ve said but I think we are talking about two different things. I’m not saying that pcb’s are more prone to failure, and you’re right that it’s quite the opposite. I’m saying that amps, of all kinds, even high quality pcb amps, experience failure. When the inevitable happens, it is possible that a pcb will be damaged beyond feasible repair. I’ll give you two examples. 1. A resistor burns and damages surrounding traces making that section of the board unusable. 2. Shady power source at a night club surges and causes arching which burns the board. Most times, through a labor intensive (and very expensive at a techs hourly rate) process of scraping away conductive material and replacing with hard wired components, the board can be repaired. Some times it can not. This is the crux of my point. Pcb amps can fail in a way that makes them scrap. Hand wired amps don’t share this issue. Your pcb board may last a lifetime with no need for repair. If it does fail, it will more than likely be repairable. In the unlikely case that the pcb experiences extensive damage, you will be looking for a new amp, not a repairman.
@@mr.preece8137 in the examples you give - it's not likely to happen if there are protections built into the amp to circumvent this. Secondly even if there were some damage to the PCB you can cut traces to re-work the area when that happens. I do this to Fender Hot Rod amps all the time where this happens routinely. Higher quality boards don't have this issue on well designed circuits. This can also easily happen to a PTP amp, it can be easier to repair however.
This was great Mason, really interesting and informative.
Wow! Thanks for watching!
As a professional PCB designer for the last 30 years who has worked designing every type of design from analog, RF to high speed digital and I was expecting to balk at some things in the video but it was really good. Having designed boards for studio gear, tube amplifiers and humble pedals there is a lot involved but its never even a thought to try and make an item somehow as "good as hand wired" its just implementing the circuit as optimally as possible and PCBs really allow for lots of variations to truly get the best out of design that hand wired doesn't allow for. That said, after all these years of looking closely at thousands of PCBs, a hand wired amp is aesthetically very pleasing to me and I prefer them for that alone.
Thanks for watching and for the comment.
Hey, doc, thank you so much for this video! I’ve left a comment about it, on another video of yours about the W-D-W, and so glad you made this one!!! It came to answer so many questions so many of us had but nowhere could find such a definite answer, with experts to back you up!!! Thank you!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. I’ve always wondered about this myself, and it was good to hear perspective from so many talented people in the industry!
Thanks for watching! Hope it was valuable
Boutique used to mean a guy sitting in his basement or garage building pedals by hand. Painstakingly soldering them one by one. That also meant they could not sell immense volumes. They just made enough to get by. It also meant they could provide one on one customer service to the customer. Lots of renowned boutique builders started out like that and some still do. Then came along guys like the likes of this dude, JHS and many more. Quick money makers. These guys get the pedals fully manufactured using smd in China. No different to what a Chinese company like Joyo, Behringer, Caline, Mooer and many others do. Except, these guys still want you to pay the "boutique handmade" price for their mass produced pedals. In order to do so, all of these manufacturers are churning out videos and blogs on how smd is better than through hole. Its actually quite funny to watch them bend over backwards to prove this point just so they can justify the price difference between theirs vs the Chinese counterparts.
Thumbs up 👍 Mason, very informative and clears a lot of thoughts and questions I’ve had. Thanks again…
Glad it was helpful!
Great topic, great video, thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Wonderful video!
Glad you liked it!
Excelent and very enlightening subject. Cheers from Brazil!
❤️❤️❤️
You created the All-Start lineup here! 100% credibility, real thorough and solid analysis, thanks for the great info!
🙏🙏🙏 thanks for watching!
Great video. Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
It's really simple with amps. Handwired = longevity, not necessarily because it'll last longer from the factory but because you (or an amp tech) can easily replace / upgrade / modify any part of the amp. I'm going through this right now on my channel, I've got a 1955 Magnatone I'm learning to work on. I'm confident this amp would be doa if it was made with a pcb (hypothetically) 67 years ago. Working on / with a pcb is MUCH harder and often times the components are much smaller / harder to source and replace. Handwired for amps every time.
That's not necessarily true, it depends on implementation and the layout of the PCB. There are PCB amps that are really great and easy to work on - the Suhr Badger as an example. Components don't know their on a PCB, and you can use the same components on a PCB amp as you can a handwired amp, what it comes down to is implementation as stated by Suhr and Friedman - so often people characterize PCB amps based on their worst examples, not their best (or even standard examples).
Following up after hearing John's comments, I think there's a big difference between easier / better to work on for a company vs as the end user / consumer. A handwired amp is going to be much easier to work on as a consumer with an off the shelf soldering iron most people already have the and the components are easy to source for replacements/upgrades. It's much more service time for a company like Suhr or Friedman I imagine to do handwired amps / repairs than it is to just swap a pcb.
@@YeatzeeGuitar it completely depends on the layout, design, and intent of the builder. Again a lot of the issues with hand-wiring are a result of human error by way of hand work, inconsistent solder joints, cold solder joints, etc. Most of this disappears on a PCB that's wave soldered that's of decent quality. For the most part, the PCB amps should need almost no serviceability except tube changes and cleaning of the contacts periodically. Again, on most PCB amps the high failure points are typically wired off the PCB anyway - pots and tube sockets most commonly. It would be unfair to characterize the quality of something like Fender Hot Rod PCB to a well designed PCB - where it might be more true of what you're writing here on the issues related to PCB. I wouldn't expect that Suhr or Friedman to need to replace a main level PCB as that's the least likely failure point for a quality build and I would think they would need to do that no more than a few times a year at most and certainly less frequently that a tech needs to re-flow bad solder joints on a Vox Handwired Series.
@@VertexEffectsInc well I own a PT15IR, I'll have to open it up and see what it looks like but I think there's no question the vast vast vast majority of pcb amps on the market are far harder to work on for the average Joe than say a 60's fender or the equivalent type of handwired amp.
I'm not discounting pcb, like John said it allows him to do more like he did with my fantastic PT15IR. That amp has a special use case for me, so it makes sense but I have no doubt in my mind my vintage handwired amps will out live me and be serviceable to run for my kids when I'm long gone whereas who knows with the stuff reliant on pcb. Will suhr be around in 60 years? Hope so! Will they still have the pcbs hanging around to swap in if there is a major failure? Probably not.
@@YeatzeeGuitar yes, the PT would be harder to work on than a Tweed Deluxe, no question - but I think this also needs to be measured against what it does and its features when comparing amps like this. There's no IR loader in a Tweed Deluxe, no channel switching, etc. You wouldn't want a handwired PT15 - this is the best method for this type of amplifier. I think the more 1:1 example would be say a Brownface Fender Deluxe vs. a Suhr Hombre, the same amp but one done PTP in the early 60's the other done now on a PCB. The PCB is simple, uncomplicated, and while maybe not quite as easy as the Brownface, we're talking maybe 10% more time for anything on the board vs. eyelets to repair (which is the least likely place for failure on the PCB version).
Every manufacturer loves pcb, every player who invests 2000 or more loves the assurance that Through hole can be serviced long term. I bought a Mesa boogie tremoverb in 1996 at the age of 22 that I saved for and wanted to last a lifetime. 10 years ago it started having issues that led me to learn how to build and design amps. The same way Dave Friedman and John Suhr ended up learning. They became frustrated with an old amp. Any pedal under 300 dollars is fine being SMT. It is great. But if it stops working after 15-20 years, I would not be heartbroken. The exception to all this is Freyette and Suhr, and maybe Friedman. I know they are great men with conscience. Only Friedman is relying on his investor to provide him with technology to execute his amps. Even Fryette admits to amps he created 25 years ago to being inrepairable due to chip and the chip programming he used. When I buy a guitar that I like, I don’t expect it to be inreparable in 25 years, and I don’t expect an amp to be the same.
As John Suhr said, it's not the method, it's the execution. There have been a lot of poor PCB implementations over the years, especially among budget amps, which make a bad name for the great PCB amps out there - Suhr, Friedman, Fryette, Rivera, Fuchs to name a few. The truth is, there aren't a lot of large scale manufacturing amp builders out there, so most of them can't afford to do this or have the team in place to help them do it properly to scale, so it's easier on their operation to do handwired and keep a small team in place to do it with higher priced amps due to the increased labor. It's not so much that it's not possible it's just not the infrastructure of most of these amp makers that many of us love, but are never going to sell even 200 amps per year.
A handwired amplifier will outlive me. Cannot say the same about a pcb based amplifier. I owned Marshall TSL and it basically was unrepairable without replacing the PCB boards.
Depends on the handwired amp and the PCB amp...well built versions of each will last just as long. A poorly built version of either will not last as long. TSL is not an equal example to a well made HW PTP amp and is not representative of high quality PCB design. That's like having your baseline for Sushi being a California Roll you got at a gas station.
i learn a lot with your videos, i didnt even think that i would be so interested in electronics, i really like sounds and how to produce them, thanks for your work i will consider buy a vertex pedal asap, peace
Great news! Thanks for watching!
Great video ;)
I do appreciate that well -made PCB amps can be made, but I like the maintainability of hand-wired amps. It is very easy to do a cap job on mid-60s Fenders and I can do them myself. Also, I am old and old-school os hand-wired makes me happy. Between my Fenders and my Dr. Zs, everything is hand-wired and beautiful when you look under the hood. For pedals, modding is easier with through hole than with surface mount. I think there is less of an issue with PCB pedals because they generally are low signal devices.
Handwired is easier to repair, but not by a lot if if the design of the PCB is good.
I need to buy one of your products for no other reason than in gratitude for your excellent videos.
Hopefully it delivers on the tone as well 😉
Good stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it
So for about 15 years my favorite rig consisted of a 1966 blackface Super Reverb and a 1965 Fender blackface Pro Reverb that I ran in stereo through several effects on my board.
I loved that rigged and it was truly the tone of the Gods. I have to admit that I was constantly opening up the chassis and just staring at the beautiful wire runs and the artistic nature of the build quality.
Having said that my current rig consists of a 2005 Tone King Imperial Mk 1 and a 2007 Dr. Z Maz 18 2 x 10.
I have to say that I think that this rig is far better than my previous 1960s Fender setup.
In particular the Tone King sounds almost identical to my beautiful 1965 Pro Reverb in the clean setting.
And it's not point-to-point or hand-wired but it's built like a tank and the tone is the gravy of the Gods.
On the other hand my MAZ18 junior is all hand-wired and is built like a tank and sounds absolutely stunning!
The combination of the two amplifiers run through my rig in stereo I think in my opinion is far better sounding than the two blackface fenders that I ran for approximately 15 years.
So to your point Mason, I think that it really relies on the Builder, specifically the builder at that company who is actually creating that amplifier or effects to create the more contemporary gear that we have all come to love and covet!
Thank you so much for the incredibly informative videos that you have uploaded here. It's certainly answers just about every damn question I ever wanted to ask about gear!! Thanks to all involved and thank you Mason for moderating the conversation!
Thanks for watching!
The first tube base amplifier I ever owned is the Peavey VB-3. This is a very unique amplifier with a combination of SMD and through hole. The SMPS power supply is extremely complex and rare in a tube amp. I have personally worked on the patch Bay for all the speaker connects and DI out to fix a noise issue there. Without special soldering tools I would have never been able to do the job. The VB-MA which I also own is similarly built. Also to mention that these amplifiers were hand built and wired, with some automated assembly of the surface mount stuff.
I also own the more traditional built VB-2, all through hole but automated wave solder assembly. While much heavier the pcbs inside once you get access to them are far easier to repair using more common solder tools.
Both amplifiers equally sound amazing and what it comes down to in my opinion is having the skills and the proper tools to do the job.
SMD on amps can be a little trickier with the high voltage stuff, sometimes there can be switching and relay sections for amp channels and things that will be SMD, but typically most amps are still through hole even if they're PCB based in most sections from what I've seen but I'm not manufacturing amps on the level of Friedman or Suhr so my experience may be outdated. Thanks for sharing this!
@@VertexEffectsInc you are right on the money Mason. SMD specifically when handling high voltage needs to be isolated from the rest of the low voltage circuitry. It's common practice to do this. SMD low voltage components that are doing all the controlling of the larger components that can handle the higher voltages. Even more important than isolation is shielding. SMD components operating at very high frequencies are susceptible to interference from larger components that typically are not shielded.
I'm certainly no expert but this type of subject matter interests me a lot. I leave all the hard engineering to the builders. I regularly chat with the design engineers of my amplifiers at Peavey. They don't get near as much public fanfare as Friedman or Suhr, but the knowledge base is undeniable with all of them!
Cheers!
@@Bassguitarist1985 thanks again for chiming in!
I just appreciate the time and thought a person may have put into a hand wired product. It’s art.
Sure...it can be nice to look at and takes time, it doesn't make it any more reliable or a better circuit by being hand wired.
this is a great video, what about guitar pickups, same relation ?
Are there PCB pickups? I guess EMGs or something like that might have some???
Thank you once again Mason, yet another fine video. Perhaps part of the alure of hand-wired is the search for that one off that has that mojo. Pete Thorn had a Trainwreck, Liverpool on his show that sounded really unique. I personally would have no qualms buying a new amp; however, I will always have an ear open for a good older hand wired.
There can be great handwired amps, no doubt...for the Trainwreck that was the only way Ken could do it on his own, he didn't have a manufacturing facility nor was it a high volume amplifier (manufacturing wise). In these small numbers it makes sense for a custom amp to be handwired.
All four of the experts are in business selling PCB based products, not including their guitars. It would be a conflict of interest for them to say anything negative about PCB based products. Both Dave Friedman and John Suhr did say that the PCB quality and design has to be at a certain level. Unfortunately there are many products, not necessarily theirs, that do not live up to those standards.
I think the "bias" argument that some are making here is still a bit of a stretch. It infers that there is a bad faith effort in the video findings to undermine the customer by creating a cheaper/easier version of our respective products to save money in production and increase the cost to consumers, with less serviceable products, thereby, giving us higher profit margins and the customer a costlier repair bill when the time comes. The consideration, I think, is that an amp technician would somehow be more neutral as a voice to support or refute what's said here. However, amp techs generally aren't in manufacturing and have little understanding of those processes on a large scale, or even medium scale. They also have their own biases too. Some may only be able to work on PTP and Handwired amps, so they'd prefer that, others might just want easier jobs so may prefer handwired amps that don't require a lot of pre-work and schematic sourcing to repair. Others might prefer a PCB amp that's more complex because a repair is more billable hours. We can't presume their reasons or incentives, but what I can say is that this video has about the most comprehensive a group in amps and pedals as you'll find in our industry and defaulting to bad faith and incentives on their part just doesn't like up with their company legacies and brands. These are individuals that have proven products in both point to point and PCB over multiple decades in most circumstances. If there is a better way to do it, they'll do it. They all care about tone, consistency, and reliability. If you refuse to take their advise, you're doing so at your own peril.
@@VertexEffectsInc TLDR
I hate asking this question on an unrelated video, but I can’t seem to find much help anywhere. Is there a need for a buffer when using an iridium/ACS1/amp sim? I imagine one is needed at the beginning of the chain as usual, but should you put one before the sim pedal? Or are the input values different and thus there isn’t really a need for a second buffer in that context?
If the Iridium/ACS is last, no. If other pedals follow it that down have a 100 ohm output impedance and are buffered, then yes, you need an output buffer.
Was just wondering about the build quality and parts of the Vertex boost vs. the new version… Any sonic difference btw these pedals?
They were both all SMD, same circuit.
This is the tonewood debate equivalent of eletronics haha.
There are bad examples of PCB most certainly, but both done properly is certainly the way to go for consistency and reliability.
Bravo!
Thanks for watching!
Can’t wait to hear the different arguments . I’m on team handwired . But all my amps are hybrid . I don’t mind the PCB if done with a high level of quality and components . Where I do stand my ground is having chasis mounted tube sockets versus PCB mounted sockets . Especially with power tube sockets . Hopefully someone will touch on that idea.
This is all covered in the video!
@@VertexEffectsInc 😬 I’m ready for the geek fest !!
@@ontherocks1026 hahahaha!
One of my early jobs was working at one of the last independent printed circuit board makers in the US, including a few days of working in their "electrical test" department... i.e. I was checking batches to make certain that every trace of circuitry was transferring current. It was very precise work... and I never saw a failure, My point being I saw "the sausage being made" at what is supposed to be the "lesser" of the equation. Hand wired circuits are easier to repair if things go wrong, but as far as transferring electrons from one component to another? I have no problems or worries with anything made on a PCB.
The only advantage I see with guitar gear then is with the premium of "hand wired" guitar companies may also be putting more care into the manufacturing and components, but I see no disadvantage of copper traces versus copper wires.
As the video states, both can be done well. I think the confusion is that the time it takes to do hand-wiring point to point means that it's better built because it's more handmade. It can be, it also, might not be and certainly has more changes for inconsistencies amp to amp and failures just due to human error. However, the PCB can have its own problems if done for the wrong reasons, like budget. This is typically why we see so many horror stories about PCB amps - the PCBs are done for low cost and mass production with no consideration of re-work, servicing, or longevity.
@@VertexEffectsInc No, I appreciate the balanced approach and discussion here, as opposed to the usual "circuitboard bad!" mentality that I've heard for decades from guitar folks. I'm just offering an additional personal observation.
Excellent thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Mason, great video on this subject.
I've had several discussions with others in the past on this topic for amps and not so much on the stomp pedals. I have no issues with PCB amps. I personally would prefer that the tube socket be mounted directly to the chassis to lower overall internal heat and better dissipate heat away from other components.
Proven fact in the electronic industry that long time exposure to heat will result in thermal degradation of electronic parts, connections and cause faster tolerance changes at the component level. From the perspective of reliability and longevity the cooler the better. As far as tolerances this could affect the tone for the better or worse, kind of like a drained 9V battery in a pedal - never know the results until it happens.
Again great video, really enjoy the broad topics you cover on guitar gear.
Most of the high quality PCB amps still put things off the board or hand wire them like the heater wires to the tube sockets, some jacks and switches and pots. The Suhr Badger PCB shown here is a good example of that.
My Holy Grail Amp is the JMP Mk II Master Volume amp, aka the JCM 800. They don't make them anymore. So, there's no PCB versions of those floating around. Someday you might have the same serviceability with PCBs, maybe. But here we are in 2022, and it's still cheaper to have a hand wired amp recapped than a PCB amp. I think the reason no one mentioned this is they'd rather sell you a new amp. I think most of us, when we get that Holy Grail Amp expect to keep it running for a lifetime, and you can, and it's cheaper if it's an hand wired amp. So, until they make capacitors that last a lifetime, hand wired is the way to go. But, unless you have Paul McCartney money, or at least Joe Bonamassa money, it's an expensive proposition to take tube amps on the road. There are instances of people who had both their primary and their backup go out at the same time. If you think having a PCB amp recapped is expensive try paying for Rush Overnight Service on two at the once. Most of us are better off leaving them at home and profiling it on a Kemper. You might even leave the Kemper at home and rent a backline one, and put your tube amp profiles on a flash drive. I think you should have talked to someone in the business who isn't selling something, a hard proposition indeed.
Kemper...talk about unserviceable
What about a vintage Traynor YBA-1 or a Traynor YGM-3
There will always be audible differences between amps and effects. The guests didn't mention that, but that's because no manufacturer will want to talk about it. But it's there. The components used - resistors, caps, inductors, transistors, and even transformers and tubes vary from unit to unit. Resistors, for example, come in tolerances that can be as much as 20% of the nominal value... or, for a fat price you can get parts that are have tighter tolerances - even 1% or better. These parts comes at a hefty price. I imagine many (hopefully not all) tube amps are built with tubes that aren't matched at all. This is why a buyer should play through the actual amp before buying; it's important for a buyer to get one that he/she likes. So in my view, sonic differences are real but I don't think it has a thing to do with hand-wired v. PCB construction. On the other hand, I don't like jacks and pots that are soldered to PCBs. Music gear tends to live a hard life. If a jack or pot takes a hit, the last thing you want is for that impact to be transferred to the PCB, where it might do some real damage.. It's much safer (and in my view smarter) to wire those parts to posts or through-holes in the board to prevent the impact from causing damage. I should also add that hand wiring may be touted as a "feature" when it might just be that the real reason a manufacturer hand wires is because his production volume might be too low to justify the up-front cost for getting PCBs made. My 2 cents, your mileage may vary. But I engineered systems for the defense/aerospace world for decades... so that's my story and I'm sticking to it, Cheers!
Yes, properly done there is no difference. But with mass production the managment says - this part is 2 cents cheaper, and this... lets make everything cheaper, and the profits higher. I can't imagine boutique builders like Jim Kaufman will do this with his buffer boxes. No knobs - and there is not much in it. He just uses good stuff. It sounds good, last so long, easy to repair. And so simple to use. IMHO
For the most part, parts are the same in either fashion, the parts are not typically the primary cost, it's the labor that's the consideration above others, and PCB cuts that down tremendously. Jim could make the same product on a PCB if he doesn't already with all SMD parts and could get the same result.
@@VertexEffectsInc My argument is "mass production" - not pcb or handwired. If I buy expensive "handwired" I expect excellent parts and ecxellent sound. Like the Sunrise buffer box. In mass production someone comes, buys the company, outsources everything, makes everything cheaper... I don't say you do that, or Kheeley or JHS. But look at Gibson from the 1980 on: when the manager-class rules...
Mason once again THANK YOU for leading to TRUTH
It was all Josh, Robert, Dave, and John!
Mason, you knock it out of the park with every single video! To me they are all grand slams, but this is the ultimate grand slam video for me being 63 years old. Definitely a lot of myths and misbeliefs being older. Same with USA made vs foreign sometimes. You saved me a lot of cash in the future, for sure. Thank you! 🙏
Glad you like them!
The number one difference between hand-wired (HW), thru-hole PCB (TH), & surface mount PCB (SM) is the expected quantity to be manufactured. HW does not scale particularly well. SM scales to large quantities best while TH bridges the gap.
SM also has the most expensive tools & it would not surprise me to see any pedal manufacturer contract the board layout, board manufacture, parts population, & flow soldering to those who have made the hefty plant investment.
Sound difference? Never say never but really, when the design follows the rules for parts selection, field replaceable assemblies, & test fixtures, your main sound variation would be component tolerances.
As to the end of TH boards, it seems that technology has a solid grip on the DIY market. Small investment for quality, low-volume products.
The details of all this are complex & span the product life cycle. The final word on sound is solely in the ear of the listener. Do not ignore a product because it is hand-wired or PCB.
Well said!
I have a Fender Blues Deluxe (original 90's model, not reissue) that needs a bit of work to be done by a technician. A couple of mods for tone, a different power supply (I bought overseas so I want a new transformer and have it wired 110) but there will be some work needed because it's a PCB board amp. Input jacks need to be replaced (no longer making good contact with the PCB) and the ribbon connectors will probably break when the amp is opened up (known issue)
A lot of these are known issues with the Hot Rod amps in general...not the best example of PCB made amplifiers compared to say a Suhr or other high quality PCB-based amps.
This was a great topic. If I could add..... Hand-wired would not properly implement technology such as Bluetooth because a 50ohm track and return path (Ground plane) is required.
Thanks for watching!
Keep in mind, these are all business people - business people that have a much higher profit margin on mass-produced products vs craftsman-prepared goods. I’m sure in general, there is truth to many of the statements made here, just remember where their incentives are.
Also, it’s easy to say the serviceability is similar when you’re a renowned engineer; but take one of those PCBs to your average repair shop and ask them to troubleshoot+fix and see what happens- they’ll tell you that you need a full replacement.
With many PCB amps this is true. For the high quality stuff, again, the intent is to make the amps identical from serial number 1 - 1000.
The main takeaway for me is that the product should be made with the best components and proper design and execution, and it does not matter. 99% of my pedals are PCB and work perfect and are very reliable. With the amps, I have mixed results. I have two Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps, one old and hardwired serviced many times and probably doesn't have original part left, but the circuit is unchanged no mods and one new PCB. In my case, I prefer the sound of the hardwired. I don't consider myself to have the best ear and hear small differences, so since I can hear the difference, then the amount is substantial. Also, the PCB amp has been twice in 18 months for repairs. On the hardwired, I have changed only tubes for the last 7 years. I would like to mention that on the question of serviceability of the pedals both experts didn't answer the question about serviceability instead they said their pros for ease and speed of manufacturing, repeatability of manufacturing, cost optimization of manufacturing etc. but not serviceability.
Agreed 100% on the pedals. For amps, the Fender stuff is low quality and fairly well known to be by most techs and I'm sure Fender as well...but their building to a price point. Sound wise, two amps both equally well built handwired and PCB are going to sound the same as stated here. You cannot compare a poorly built PCB based amp to a high quality handwired amp and call it a baseline. You'd need to compare two of the same circuit archetypes by two builders one handwired and one PCB and you'd have something to compare of substance - say a Suhr Hombre (Suhr's Brownface Deluxe), versus a vintage Fender Brownface Deluxe (or boutique maker of the same amp). That would be more of a 1:1 comparison. The Hot Rod Series is NOT a shining example of PCB amps at their best.
@@VertexEffectsInc I agree. I put the story about the amps to once again underline the first sentence in my first comment. English is not my native language and maybe doesn't illustrate what exactly I was trying to convey.
You mentioned your PCB amp is a Fender HR Deluxe. I'm curious what your hand wired amp is. I have a 1990 dual sided PCB Boogie & it's only had two repairs in the 20 plus yrs I've owned it. One of the repairs was due to a bass player connecting 2 cabs incorrectly (fuse & blown cap). Other was a power connection that needed to be resoldered. That amp has seen many stages & even had a beer or two spilled on it. My hand wired amp is a 63 Bandmaster. That's a dead simple circuit so less places for failure. No fancy switching etc. I've replaced nearly everything in it as Leo wasn't buying high tolerance parts plus metal film resistors are less noisy than those old carbon comps. He used what was available & inexpensive. I can't compare 'em as they're classic apples & oranges. Both are tube amps but the similarity nearly ends there.
IMO; the price point of pedals somewhat negates serviceability. Do you have your broken microwave serviced or buy a new one? You buy a new one as it's cheaper. Unless it's a Klon or something else collectible, servicing a pedal is simply a waste of $ providing you don't do the work yourself. I work on my own amps for the most part but often wont bother with a pedal as it's simply not worth my time or patience.
@@jpistolas It is a HRD from 1997 that was converted to handwired from previous owner.
1000% the most frustrating thing is trying to service soldered in place boards. I had to cut into the case in one instance, was some Dr. Frankenstein stuff to get that board out.
That can be tricky, sometimes you just have to cut some wires or de-solder stuff which sucks.
@@VertexEffectsInc on the mxr dime distortion the 18v in wouldnt desolder, i was cooking the board trying and the pots were locking it in too lol, i tried even flexing the board, i ended up cutting a tiny channel to slide it out. (And it was all for vanity lol, needed to get rid of the ugly camo paint job and give it a distortion+ yellow)
It just depends on what tools you have available, in our professional electronics lab, I think the techs would choose the PCB 100% of the time especially if it’s all surface mount… with the right tools it’s much easier and far faster to repair usually, that’s why they are so much cheaper to make… replacing an IC that’s SMD literally takes a couple seconds… But if you don’t have all the specialty tools then brute force is going to be more successful on hand wired stuff…
Implementing the method correctly which was said by John is absolutely correct. This is the same as the Information Systems I have set up.
Thanks for sharing, yes...between John and Dave we have two really great and similar points of view on this.
@@VertexEffectsInc No worries, I forgot to say I really enjoyed the video cheers.
@@classicraceruk1337 Thank so much for watching and your comment!
Hand-wired is easier to repair and troubleshoot. PCB makes the pedal more compact due to the smaller components. Sound wise, I would say no noticeable difference.
Depends on how the PCB is laid out...there are some PCB pedals that are friendly to re-work.
One thing I want to tell you. You should go to an Arial overhead condenser mic, you are getting high-end booms every time your shirt moves. It is in all your videos. But this is a mega important video and your execution is perfect.
We've moved to a shotgun mic for most videos now to avoid this.
My pedal related question is, given PCB circuits are physically smaller, is that ever a constriction in terms of signal flow? I assume the answer is no based on this video, but I would love to know why certain PCB using pedals seem to "thin" or even distort my guitar's tone when others do not(when the given effects parameters are at minimum or even off)? Is it that they maintain a parallel "clean" path? Or is it that the designs or manufacture are that different in quality?
Generalizing that PCB pedals thin your tone is a misnomer - it would be specific to the pedal and design, and nothing to do with the PCB. Remember most famous pedals are all PCB: Tube Screamer, King of Tone, Klon Centaur, etc. If you find that there are artifacts present in your pedals it could have to do with the build quality as there are no standard for PCB thickness, trace thickness...some companies go super cheap, some companies to super thick and robust and have thicker traces than the equivalent wire gauge in a handwired amp.
Physical size rarely has the type of effect on signal you are talking about when talking pedals. Pedals work on small voltages and tiny currents which can be reliably carried by very small traces. More likely it is some combination of input impudence, instrument output level, and noise. Also, if you are talking about multiple pedals in a chain, the number and position of the pedals can have a large effect on the perceived sound, as can cable length (input impedance) and quality, and pedal power supply quality.
@@fhare666 yes...this exactly!
@@VertexEffectsInc how would one be able to judge the quality of design or attached components aside of trying it out in context? Is there a way to find out prior to purchasing, based on where the parts come from or whether designers are specifically named? If some form of legit vetting was possible, it sure would help. In some cases, I have gone for years thinking I had the wrong cable/guitar/amp/etc when in reality I just hadn't found a quality pedal, or didn't know to change some other element; like using a direct box, etc
@@fhare666 this has been my quagmire for years now; sure would be nice to have my own tech😄
When you play a lot and pay attention, you hear and feel how this game of inches adds up to whichever preference you have.
I think it's important to recognize that both can be done well and effectively or ineffectively. A lot of this has to do with our psychology around how we feel about any one particular method based on what we've heard, not necessarily based on what's inside. Most consumers aren't qualified to make this evaluation so they form an opinion shaped by their peers, which is frequently oversimplified as I think the discussion around SMD vs. Through Hole and PCB vs. PTP Hand Wiring has become.
Considering a Carr Superbee which I understand is PTP. I don't think Carr offers a PCB version so I have to go with PTP. Am I paying big bucks for the labor involved when that amp, redesigned, could be made far less expensive with a PCB design? Of course the Superbee sounds awesome so if it sounds good, it is good? After hearing the conversation in this video I'm wondering if there are PCB versions of a Superbee (similar to) that can be had for far less money? It's just money, right? So go with what you love, right?
Small operations often don't offer this as its more work at smaller scale. Doesn't mean it's better.
Awesome video! Sometimes its not so simple as "HW vs PCB" though. I feel like there are different levels of PCB, and you mentioned this saying the method must be executed right. But take the Tone King Imperial MkII, its PCB, but it still looks highly servicable and logically laid out. Its a PCB amp built like an old HW amp. On the flip side, amps like Blackstar and DV Mark exist, which feature very intense micro components and increased complexity.
People say that those amps are treated as "toss-away" amps, that you just have the manufacturer replace the entire PCB when something goes wrong, or you just throw it in the garbage and buy a new one. So then, another consideration is road-serviceability, at least if you are a performing musician. Can you take the amp to a local tech and have them fix it before your show the next day, or like Blackstar, do they require you to send the entire unit in over a week period for full PCB replacement?
I guess my point is, PCB seems like it has many various levels of complexity, from "basically handwired but using a PCB", to "basically a small computer". Handwired stuff can also get very complex, but even at its most complex most techs would be able to service them provided they have access to the schematic. The same is not true of the really complex PCB amps.
The new Blackstars are especially relevant. At over $1000, I no longer think it should be considered appropriate that you "toss the amp" if it craps out outside of warranty. Your hope then is that Blackstar continues supporting this product and making replacement "drop-in" PCBs, but who knows how long they actually will.
Anyways, I appreciate you dispelling common myths, I think there are an absurd number of myths, superstitions, and other snake oil bullshit in the guitar world that can affect us all in a negative way if we aren't aware. Any clarity you can bring is much appreciated, I look forward to more videos from your channel!
Thanks for this comment!
I agree completely with your final statement 100%
Great from both platforms, they may sound slightly different, but both can be great platforms. I think I prefer older hand wired amps, vintage Fender stuff specifically, because of how accessible and documented they are - in case you need to repair or mod. But I have several solid state options that I truly could never part with as well.
They're only going to be as good as the company that makes them, really. If it's a rushed bad product, it doesn't make a difference if it's hand wired or PCB.
I think the main takeaway here is that we should invalidate PCB just because it's PCB. PCB's have got a bad reputation based on the worst implementations, not the best or even the standard ones.
@@VertexEffectsInc I'll publicly state that my favorite amp is a solid-state, PCB, PR403 Princeton '65 that I love love love. I own two because I love that amp so much. It was the first thing I ever saved up hard earned money for... probably part of the reason why I love it so much, and everything else I own is either vintage or boutique hand wired. Go figure!
If you advocate for soldered patch cables for a pedalboard build because soldered patch cables have a greater ability to withstand physical stresses, would the same hold true for hand-wired amps (they are more durable).. because there is more soldering connecting the parts/wires as compared to a pcb and/or a larger point of connection?
Totally unrelated and not comparable. My argument for soldered cables is about a gas tight connection - same is true here of PCB or PTP handwired. In the end both methods are soldered. Secondly, patch cables are external and exposed and manipulated - amp connections and traces are internal and untouched outside of servicing. An equally well built PCB and PTP Handwired amps are going to error on the PCB amp being more robust - less human error, less bad solder joints, less failed solder joints due to vibration. Most of the high quality PCB amps like the Suhr's still wire high use components off of the boards and select wiring like the heater wires, sometimes pots and switches as well.
What they show here isn’t the surface soldered but every aspect involved into the producing such equipment, specially the human factor. Mr. Marangella advocates for you making your own pedalboard and cables due to the fact you can understand it better and customize it for your own tastes or needs, not for any other reason, specially financial gain, as he’s sharing his years of experience with us and depend on patreon members to make it happen. Notice that he doesn’t have a ton of commercials nor advertisement on his videos, and promotes way more his competitors, based on his opinion and quality of their products, instead of selling his own. He makes pedals and they are great! I followed his advice and tried out his booster and it works as it should, and I didn’t buy the most expensive but, based on his quest for quality, I felt confident it would work for my purposes, and it did. He doesn’t advocate for expensive stuff, but defends quality at all costs, he always promotes subjects, not products! Notice that when he releases a video about a subject, he carefully chooses a few options, from affordable to very expensive, and describes why he prefers/recommend one over another! He’s young to the amount of knowledge he has accumulated on this industry and, kindly, shares it with us all, paying or not!
Another aspect of this is the debate of why is so expensive for a cheap PCB that's cheaper to build the product. At these prices people want handwired point to point.
They only want it because they think it's better - if done right, it's not.
I wish you had asked them what (only 1 amp 'type' allowed) they would take on the road -where weight/ repairability might be more of an issue- would HW or PCB be a consideration?
I think it comes down to the implementation, not the method.
I get John explanation. My CAA PT100 is very close to my SE100 that is "a bit too much in your face" for my taste which can be a good thing. The quality the PCB is outstanding in the OD100 series. I even dug the hi-fi aspect of my old OD100SE+. I would buy this amp again if I find one. More my kind than the PT100. YMMV
Thanks for sharing!
What they show here isn’t the surface soldered but every aspect involved into the producing such equipment, specially the human factor. Mr. Marangella advocates for you making your own pedalboard and cables due to the fact you can understand it better and customize it for your own tastes or needs, not for any other reason, specially financial gain, as he’s sharing his years of experience with us and depend on patreon members to make it happen. Notice that he doesn’t have a ton of commercials nor advertisement on his videos, and promotes way more his competitors, based on his opinion and quality of their products, instead of selling his own. He makes pedals and they are great! I followed his advice and tried out his booster and it works as it should, and I didn’t buy the most expensive but, based on his quest for quality, I felt confident it would work for my purposes, and it did. He doesn’t advocate for expensive stuff, but defends quality at all costs, he always promotes subjects, not products! Notice that when he releases a video about a subject, he carefully chooses a few options, from affordable to very expensive, and describes why he prefers/recommend one over another! He’s young to the amount of knowledge he has accumulated on this industry and, kindly, shares it with us all, paying or not! I even commented that his videos are top quality content but I don’t see even the amount of “likes” they deserve! I believe most watching this video won’t hit even the like button, what could help him to support this channel and keep sharing his knowledge the way he’s done for so many years! Check out how many famous artists come to him f for his services, how many people he knows, still he doesn’t live in a huge mansion but a very humble musician who enjoys great like any of us! Thank you, doc!
Wow! Thanks for the kind words!
@@VertexEffectsInc well deserved! I’ve told you, you encouraged me to try out the pedalboard world and I’ll be contributing to your channel once the financial burden of COVID is paid off! Well deserved!
@@VertexEffectsInc I’ve updated my comment with some other thoughts. Thank you for your reply.
@@roadshowautosports Thanks again for the support!
Nothing related to the video, but I want to do the same thing I saw in the neck of some of your guitars. I'm talking about removing the finish like I've seen in Music Man's.
Do you recommend that?
Depends on the guitar, I would talk to more of a guitar expert, I can't speak to that intelligently.
pcb can be good but mostly junk .. depends on engineering and build quality
i traded in my fender blues jr for a boss katana .. i liked the blues jr but the pcb and build quality felt and looked like chinese garbage ,,,the boss is world class japansese engineering @@michael4196
I have handwired & circuitboard tube amps. I'm prepared to trash the PCB amp when it goes, but will get the handwired amp repaired. Amps take abuse. They are heavy, get slammed, fall, dropped, left out in the sun or cold & they break. When a PCB board breaks it's gone. For me it's hard to compare PCB and handwired pedals and amps. Not everyone makes great PCB boards. Maybe these guys do but not everyone. The show turned me off for not recognizing some PCB work is low quality.
Bang on man
Not true. Plenty of techs repair PCB’s
@@Starch1b2c3d4a yeah but as an tech we don't want to! they are overly complicated and sound like shit especially any Mesa after the MK1
@@Starch1b2c3d4a define plenty, im a tech and i wont service this shit and neither will any other techs I know..You have problem with these amps send them back to the manufacturer
If it's a well made amp, you should not have this issue. Remember, as Suhr said, it's the not the method it's the execution.
I know I like working with a pick and place more than hand populating boards. But as far as end product, I don’t care how its built as much as the sound. I’m totally happy with SMT
Well said!
Circuits with variable resistors make pedals amazingly tweakable. No two pedals I've ever built seem to match regardless of point to point or PCB. On another subject, I've been using 1/2" (12.7mm) Wirefy heat shrink instead of zip ties for my DC connectors. Very clean looking.
If you have a quality layout and quality components with 1% or less tolerances, you can have a very predictable result.
Honestly if using the same components it makes no difference in sound if it’s hand wired through hole or surface mount but as far as repairs and modding I imagine it’s much more beneficial to have through hole hand wired circuits. I like classic hand wired pedals but if a pedal I like is surface mount it doesn’t bother me one bit
Got it the debate was about part to part soldering compared to printed circuit board soldering - made initial comment early in the video
Thanks for watching!
This was really interesting, I always just heard hand wired is better and just assumed it true. I saw a video on Rhett's channel where they test a hand wired fender Princeton and the mass produced and the hand wired sounded so much better, the dude at righteous guitars seemed to think it was the hand wired nature. But thinking back it could've been any number of things. Really loved this.
I do buy a lot of clone pedals and a lot are hand wired (old primitive circuits) and I've def noticed different tolerances vs buying the real pedal which has a PCB.
The problem with Rhett's video is that he assumes they're both the same circuit even though they say the same thing on the front of the two amps, they're actually not the same circuit, layout, or parts shared between the two amps, so really your not just comparing a handwired versus PCB amp, you're comparing two different amps completely. I think they also have different speakers as well. Same goes from clone pedals...a lot of them are like 90% clones or cheaper clones that sub parts, change the layout, etc. so you're not getting a 1:1 equal. It's like saying you hate New York pizza because you tried it once when visiting LA.
The Speaker of the both amps are different. So they think the wiring is the difference when actually the speaker made the big sound difference.
hand wired = 10" Jensen P10R Alnico Lautsprecher
pcb = 10" Jensen C-10R Lautsprecher
I wonder what Howard Dumble or Ken Fisher would say. You can guess though.
This does not validate or invalidate the use of PCBs for amp designs. They were making fewer than 20 amps per year at their max production (to the best we can estimate) - and most likely even fewer. They were making custom amplifiers...there wouldn't be any reason to do a PCB in that volume if ever amp is tailored to the customer and this is named in the video as a reason not to use PCBs.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes, doesn't invalidate PCB at all. I just think they might answer differently, that's all.
Over the years I have bought into a lot of nonsense concerning guitars and amps.
Honestly, all of my amps are PC based and I love them all.
My first new electric guitar was a Gibson Les Paul and I had nothing but issues with static and crap like that. I tried all the so called fixes and none of them did anything for me. It wasn't until I tossed the PC board and hand wired it. Then the problems all went away.
I have three other hand wired guitars, the other 6 electrics are all PC and they all sound and play great. In fact, my 2015 SG special still has the PC board and it has the best tone of all my guitars, no matter which of my 6 amps I plug in to.
This guitar is my all time favorite in all aspects. Second would be my 2021 PRS Custom SE 24 and then my 2017 Les Paul. All three are bad to the bone. All of my guitars are setup great and play very well. I'd be proud to take any of them, anywhere and play.
Of course, tomorrow I have a 2021 Gibson ES-335 arriving and it may well become my favorite. I guess I'll see...
I think its way more important to do a proper setup and adjust your amp properly than it is to worry about whether it's hand wired or not.
I don't have any info on hard wired pedals, largely because I am not a big fan of pedals in the first place. And there is no why in hell I will ever pay enough to buy some hardwired BS pedal to personally test.
People need to stop arguing over this nonsense and get back to creating and enjoying their craft.
Thanks for watching!
There would be a difference in quality if in hand wired gear there were audiophile grade interconnection cables as a standard, that would always be better than the copper tracks inside a PCB. However this would only apply to amplifiers where there is enough space and where the amount of cable would be considerable compared to a small device like a pedal which is in a totally different universe. I did a small project for myself with a local amp builder, basically a Deluxe Reverb with all audiophile grade connectors, cables, everything (Furutech, DH Silversonic Cables, Jupiter Red Astron Caps, Cardas audio connectors, not top for each brand but much better than the regular stock components that are regularly used in guitar amps). The result was awesome, and the overall cost went like $300-$400 above the regular price the builder usually charged for it.
You're oversimplifying what a lot of this stuff does and the impact to the the overall tone - you have not baseline. In many cases you're not using cables at all, rather just straight wire, maybe a twisted pair shielded cable in some locations to reduce noise and you're also getting away from how some of these amps might have been made originally if you do too far outside of the norm of how they were built. No classic Fender, Marshall, or Vox circuit was ever made with audiophile grade components - that wasn't part of the sound. Unless you had a baseline to compare a non-Audiophile grade version of the same amp, how do you really know what you're hearing?
@@VertexEffectsInc I never said that the intention was to sound exactly like the original as at that time technology for creating certain types of components didn't even existed (rhodium plating, OFC, etc). The experiment was to make an amplifier with audiophile grade components and see how it would sound, a direct comparison wouldn't make a lot of sense because the concept behind it is totally different and you could never tell what is making it sound different, ("Better" would be a subjective thought which I can't state mathematically for myself, so you are right with your observation). The only baseline is that there is an industry built around this type of hardware which is completely on a different track when compared to the type of components used even in high budget recording gear, amps, pedals. If it is worth it, expensive, snake oil, is a complete different discussion.. for me, there is always s difference, but not proportional to what you are paying for it.
As there are a lot of components playing a role in there, I would never state that a certain part is the one that makes the whole difference, but there are components that are more important than others for sure (There are plenty of videos that compare caps and they do not sound the same despite being the same value) I don't have the same amp with a circuit board in order to state that it sounds better or worse because of the cables, I just said that it sounded awesome, nothing else. I'm not trying to encourage people to do the same thing I did either.
On another side of the discussion, we would have to ask ourselves why are these companies are selling silver plated cables or pio caps if they don't make any audible difference. If a gear builder uses jupiter caps against orange drops, why then a cable may not affect the audio as well?
So, who makes good PCB amps? Are fenders good? Suhr? Friedman? Victory? That’d be interesting to explore.
Fender, no. Suhr, yes. Friedman, yes. Fuchs also good. Fryette also good.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you!
Mesa
I remember when the new PCB-built amps and pedals came along. Things got smaller mostly. But also the sounds weren't accurate. I'm not sure if that's an accurate description but I mean the sounds were a bit like the original Synths where every sound FX sounded the same. But as time went on they got better. But another gripe was build quality. People complained that the PCB boards would break if you didn't treat and handle them with kid gloves. I'm not sure a PCB vs Wired affects tone, I think under lab conditions it would be hard to tell if not impossible. For me it's about durability and build quality. I just bought some PCB built pedals from TC Electronic and they sound fucking amazing.
Early PCBs in musical products were poor - admittedly, this isn't representative of what they can be with high standards and good designs. Quality PCB amps will last as long as any PTP HW amp.
I will purchase hand wire because they retain their value, I purchased a hand wire amp in 2008 the same amp is now worth almost double in 2022.
If it's a vintage amp, that's true if you're comparing to a new PCB amp - but that's because it's vintage, not because it's handwired. For a newer amp, that's totally untrue. What was the amp you purchased that's worth double now?
I purchased a Dr Z Maz 38 NR amp head, 2008 I wouldn’t call it vintage, I paid $1675.00 for it and it now sells for $ 3350.00 these prices are less tax, if I sell it now I get my money back,also I am from Western Canada when I purchased it our Can $ was near par with US $ this is when I purchase my all my gear, we are at now about .78 cents to US $ , my gear is an investment I can enjoy, if I sell I get my money back😊
@@Victor-tl5eg Are you comparing a new price to a used price or just the fact that the cost of production has increased? Or is this amp discontinued so it's more scarce now? It doesn't seem like this is a consequence to being handwired vs. not but rather market effect versus the amp maker's notoriety or the availability of the amp.
This amp is still available the new price is $3350.00, I purchased a Mesa Lonestar Special 12 inch combo for $2400.00 can$ no tax in 2007, it was discontinued in my area two years ago, at that time it was selling for $ 2700.00 they sell used it my area for about $ 1800.00 , so I will not get my money back if I sell it, my Mesa amp sounds just as good if not better then the Dr Z, but for me it comes down to retaining my money, 90 % of my pedals are PCB
The medium of manufacture is all good if designed and built with care. What worries me as someone who fixes phone's and other devices is that as SMD/SMT manufacture becomes the norm in pedals etc. is that our ownership right to repair or modify the equipment we own is maintained. In other words are schematics and other relevant information going to be as freely available as they are today. In my experience for example there is nothing quicker and easier to replace than a SMD resistor or ceramic capacitor as long as you are given the correct value to replace it with. With regard to phones and laptops etc. for they are only able to have their logic boards fixed because good people in China are risking everything to smuggle out schematics etc to make the relevant info freely available. The sharing of knowledge that i see amongst pedal and amp builders and enthusiasts including many successful manufacturers that we currently enjoy today i hope will be just as prevalent in the future.
That's all at the discretion of the manufacturer. We don't have any issues sharing part numbers with those that want to DIY or send elsewhere.
Where can I get that shirt you're wearing?
howlerbros.com/products/dust-up-denim-f21?color=2
I would have liked for you guys to have Lyle from Psionic Audio in on this analysis...he is very good at amp builds and repairs etc. Check Lyle's channel out on UA-cam people (Psionic Audio); very informative and easy on the ears...lol.
Heka - yes! I subscribe to Lyle's channel, and his Facebook page before that which had a similar vibe. I think he would agree with everything said here for the most part and has reiterated this on his channel - however a lot of the PCB amps that he's having to re-work are all poor quality, and he's freely (and does) say that. Equally, many handwired PTP amps he says are total crap - which validates what we say here - it's not the method, it's the execution of the method.
This topic reminds me of digital vs analog, whereby modern implementations of digital tone is pretty dang good compared to the POD kidney days.
I remember when Klon started doing the KTR. All the gear heads were in an uproar. I believe the first batch did have some issues, but have since been fixed.
Well...both Klons were PCB and really no two Klons were exactly the same sounding IMO.
Ah my bad, I had assumed to Centaur to be through hole for the most part. So I guess that is one example of PCB but with variables decided by component availability then?
@@coffeedudeguy most every famous pedal is all PCB...Tube Screamer, Klon, King of Tone, etc.
I really like hand wired bc I am paying for an individual to work for me like a piece of art. I’ve liked both types of pedals. I also like the fact about serviceability by any reasonable tech with the hand wired or through hole components. Their art is in my art.
For a custom amp, it's way more practical, and we don't dispute that the video. Most PCB pedals can be repaired if their analog, through hole is easier of course, but are totally serviceable. Handwired is pretty rare for pedals and actually causes more failure than solutions.
Yesterday I bought a handwired overdrive made by AMS the AMSinger. 100% handwired. AMS IS à Belgian manufacturer of high end Amps. The Differenz is unbeleable. No noise, EQ is better sound is always à question of what'you like. A chinese you find foto 30 Euro, this is 280Euro. Is it Wörth the money? For me yes.
From my experience surface mount encounters less EMI than either of the other 2 methods(hand wired or through hole PCB)
They tend to be more reliable and predicable sound-wise as well.
I was happy with my two pcb amps until they both developed problems.
My Carvin Bel Air had a output tube problem. The pc board with the output section decided to short. The entire EL84 section lost most of the traces for the B+ got cratered past the point of using jumpers. Replacement board no longer available. I added a cushioned seat to the amp and now I have a custom bench. My Carvin Nomad had tube issues due to the tube sockets mounted directly to the board ended with burnt traces from heat build-up. The EL84's were biased properly.
I'm done with pcb builds for now.
My Traynor YCV-40 had issues with bad solder joints with the surface mounted sockets.
These aren't great amps to begin with nor good examples of high quality PCBs...we can't keep saying we don't like Sushi when we're buying our Spicy Tuna hand rolls from a gas station!
@@VertexEffectsInc I just speak from my experience. I have an original 65 Princeton that has been played to the brink of death and brought back. I am an old school guy that started guitar in 63'. Strictly analog amps since then. Never had a failure with any of them. Proper maintenance and my children will be playing them long after I'm gone. The Carvin problem was partially the non-availbility of replacement parts. My current amp is a 18 watt Maz Jr. clone. F &T caps Belton sockets and it's of turret board construction. Imo it will remain a viable piece of equipment as long as components are available. Circuit boards are always subject to rev.1 rev.2 etc.
I have had issues with some of my other amps finding replacement boards due to obsolescence.
I don't doubt the newer designs are a vast improvement over the early stuff just my $.02.
@@VertexEffectsInc I suggest a good question: PCB s Amp are supposed to last how long? :) You know that as in any other field they should last not too long and be replaced. That s how manufacturers will sell more. The final goal, as usual, is to cut the production cost and produce an item that will need to be replaced. An item that can be fixed at a cheaper price than replace it, it s a problem for the industry.
@@frankmat658 there's nothin inherent in a PCB that requires it be replaced regularly. Remember, most eyelet boards for Point To Point are still PCBs. You can spec a high quality PCB that lasts forever, or a crap one that will degrade as it ages and is under various conditions consistent with tube amps. Just because it's a PCB means nothing, the quality of the PCB dictates how long it lasts. Fender PCBs on new amps are poor, and they aren't designed to last forever, that's true. Other brands we mention here will outlive their owners.
Hmm, I can repair any PCB product I own. Computers, automated mixers, amps, rack effect units, automotive components, refrigerator compressor control units… I’m just a truck driver.
I might add, my Marshall JCM900 combo is still going strong after 31 years. This is still my main gigging amplifier and I’ve done all the maintenance myself over this time. Filter caps, replaced all the potentiometers at least twice, many tube sets, replaced the speakers etc…. The PCB is solid and doesn’t need to be rewired as some other UA-camr techs claim.
I guess what confuses me is Rhett Shull did a video last year about a handwired amp he played (Princeton I believe?) and how much better it was than the PCB. And he showed them side by side at that store he was at, and sure enough, the handwired sounded better. But my guess is, Fender just uses better quality components in the Handwired series?¯\_(ツ)_/¯ because other than that, the big jump in quality doesn’t make sense to me
The biggest issue from what you’ve brought up here is that the quality of the circuit board the layout is not exactly one to one on the re-issue series circuit boards versus the hand wired reissue versions. The components are different, the component spacing is different, the lead links between components is different, the culmination of which makes it kind of a different amp at the end of the day. The only way to truly compare this is to have the same engineer design two different versions of the same exact amplifier both on a circuit board and hand wired point to point. That would really be the only way to fully represent the quality differences in sound at least, that’s separate from the quality of the circuit board, in the build quality, which Fender historically has been very poor at, going for a price point over all other measures. What are the best representations that I can think of if we’re talking about Fender style amplifiers is the new John Suhr Hombre amp which is a replica of a brown panel Fender amplifier from the early 60s. If you were to compare this to say vintage Fender that represents the same amp, you would see a very high-quality conversion of what was formerly a hand wired point-to-point amp into a circuit board based amp that is going to be more consistent, quieter, and more reliable than its hand wired counterpart.
@@VertexEffectsInc hey, thanks a lot for the response! I think that makes a lot of sense! I wonder why the reissues don’t just use the same design but… it seems handwired has become somewhat of a marketing gimmick
@@codymcgrew4015 only one reason, cost.
In Rhett's video the PCB princeton through the HW cab sounded really good on the video. Of course in the room they were still saying that the HW amp through HW cab was best, but if you are going to compare you should use the same speaker for both, in which case the difference was much smaller.
@@jaltsch1 separately from the speaker, they're still not the same amp...that's also a problem.
I don’t mind PCB’s (in pedals) at all. What I’m not a huge fan of is SMD components. If they fail the device is pretty much trash. In a guitar amp PCB’s are T R A S H and it’s not nessecarrily th fault of the manufacturer. Lead free solder is a HUGE problem. I’ll take an eyelet or lug board any day in an amp.
It's all going to be SMD in a few years. Sound wise, most stuff is 1:1 or better because it's tighter tolerances in SMD. They are repairable for most analog SMD stuff, most tech's just don't like them because they're not skilled enough to do it.
Full size components are a turn on, but some of my favorite pedals are SM now. As far as amps, I like the latest Blues Junior and Vox amps as much as any 5k boutique amplifier.
Unfortunately those amps aren't great examples of PCB amps...but they can sound good so long as they work!
@@VertexEffectsInc oh, didn’t know. I never thought I’d get used to SM pedals but now I’m seeing that they can absolutely be great.
i’ve played some hand wired stuff, but honestly i can’t tell the difference between that and PCB for my uses
If they're equally well build on the same circuit, there would be no difference.
From listening to this, it all comes down to matter of preference. As far as pedals, I can see pcb is best. Amps, yes and no. With a boutique amp you're getting basically a one of kind even though they are wired similarly . With a PCB amp, you are getting more of a consistent product with no variation in manufacturing and tone. With this said, - it all comes down to preference. You basically can go this way with anything manufactured. In my opinion - I would rather choose a hand - wired amp, it would have it's own unique character. Another way to put it is - it's like buying a house in a neighborhood with similar design; yes they all serve the same purpose and work well. Or if you decide to build one too your own specifications, you can make it to your taste rather than sticking with the same design. Just my 2 cents...
PCB pedals are a no brainer, but when you are spending high end amp money you expect generational type quality. There is a built in obsolescence issue with the PCB based on nothing more than parts availability of the board, and when you use a PCB you start to see pots and jacks wired directly to the board which is a sketchy situation when you are paying 2 grand for a twin reverb.
I don't think that's true on high end implementations like Suhr, Fuchs, Friedman, and companies that understand how to layout a board and use the proper quality PCBS and traces. The components equally are going be be no different than what's on a PTP amp (or at least they can be if desired). Many builders will do a hybrid of PCB main boards and hand wired pots and tube sockets.
Vertex Effects for sure! I play a Mesa Lonestar Special everyday, and it’s a PCB with wire runs to the large user interface components. I also see amps with all the Pots soldered to a circuit board that at some point will be cost ineffective to produce. Old point to point boards can have issues with moisture that can cause voltage issues. I just think it isn’t as simple as PCB yay or nay.
@@kevinschmitt4050 agreed!
when comes to AMP having both / I always loved, AC30 there normal then hand-wired, so then u got the option, and the cost reflects it. repairability is needed I believe. when comes to pedal PCB 100% but to mod thru-hole is nice but yeah tech moves forward, from pod bean to helix
They're not exactly the same amp unfortunately separately from the assembly style. Same with most of the Fender amps as well.
Hell I've been thinking all these years the reason why some of my petals do not like the others is because of their hand wiring? Long wires become antennas? Have even passed on some of my old pedals two young guitarist? Passing the musical pathan as we say, rock on☆.
Thanks for watching!
Great video.
I like the “hand wired iPhone“ analogy.
If you wanna see the expense and margin of error for hand wired…build a tube amp from scratch.
I did.
I have all the apple stuff - but ever tried to repair an iPhone by yourself? And - as I'm old and use a phone still as a telephone for talking with people - ist the sound qualitiy really good? I think those loudspeakers are very cheap...
Thanks for watching!
The Quality of the parts says alot for any build.will it last ? stand the test of time?
Typically the parts are the same, just depends if they're PCB or Hand Wired PTP.
Also, what people may not understand is that the amp designer decides how the amp or pedal sounds after the design is done. The sound has nothing to do with whether pcb or point to point it SMT. The designer is an engineering artist who decides it is done when he says it is.
Thanks for the comment.
Lol, I could speak for hours on this subject.
Everyone in the comments are pointing out conflict of intrest on their side, forgetting that you might as well have one too: you dont want to accept the thing you have and/or idolize and may or may not had paid big bucks for is simply outclassed. I will, however hold on to my veredict until i can see as much as a one to one comparisson as we can have, and not just listening to them(preferably recording them both with cabs and with a reamp box or whatever would suit it best, so we can see the signal throught a spectograph and maybe reamp it to see how they behave in different cabs) but lets also measure what the circuits are doing both with recording the outpit (duh) and maybe on earlyier parts of the circuitry as well, so we can point out exactally what and maybe even why the differences are whatever they are (if, they would even be). But then again thats way outside my league, if one ever do anything like that, it would be nice to see. :p
I think the "bias" argument that some are making here is still a bit of a stretch. It infers that there is a bad faith effort in the video findings to undermine the customer by creating a cheaper/easier version of our respective products to save money in production and increase the cost to consumers, with less serviceable products, thereby, giving us higher profit margins and the customer a costlier repair bill when the time comes. The consideration, I think, is that an amp technician would somehow be more neutral as a voice to support or refute what's said here. However, amp techs generally aren't in manufacturing and have little understanding of those processes on a large scale, or even medium scale. They also have their own biases too. Some may only be able to work on PTP and Handwired amps, so they'd prefer that, others might just want easier jobs so may prefer handwired amps that don't require a lot of pre-work and schematic sourcing to repair. Others might prefer a PCB amp that's more complex because a repair is more billable hours. We can't presume their reasons or incentives, but what I can say is that this video has about the most comprehensive a group in amps and pedals as you'll find in our industry and defaulting to bad faith and incentives on their part just doesn't like up with their company legacies and brands. These are individuals that have proven products in both point to point and PCB over multiple decades in most circumstances. If there is a better way to do it, they'll do it. They all care about tone, consistency, and reliability. If you refuse to take their advise, you're doing so at your own peril.
I understabd the reasons to go PCB and they seem logical. But why is it then that even in HiFi where good sound and consistency are even more important hand wired products win out against their modern pcb built counterparts? McIntosh for example comes to mind...
It would come down to the design not the method. PCB will be more consistent and can be exact, but if the design ins't done properly then it won't measure up. That's what confuses people most is they think it's a method issue when it's totally on the designer.
Mostly because of marketing rip-off. People believe that HAND WIRED = BETTER so will pay a premium for it. Delve into items where you can get both "standard" and "hand wired" models and you'll pretty much always find that the hand wired also has different components in a different circuit - basically the manufacturer is adding a significant premium to the price in exchange for a few better components, and then making the standard version worse by design to create an artificial "premium" product. If I want to charge you 6 figures for a piece of fairly simple electronic gear I'd better be doing something to make it look difficult. Electronics is all about design, and good design trumps both component quality and how it's built all over the shop.
@@AndiPicker good design does not Trump component quality or construction because if a component fails or isn't put together right and it doesn't work, the best design won't fix that. You need all 3. That costs a lot more money. People want expensive stuff for cheap. People are a bunch of tight wad cheap asses that complain about products but aren't willing to pay for better quality and simultaneously claim that better quality is a scam to justify higher expense. We Americans have become a bunch of spoiled entitled shitheads.
@@realtruenorth If it uses substandard components and construction it's a bad design. "Better Quality" is a meaningless concept without qualification as to "better for what" - is an Aventador better than a Mondeo - not if you want to use it as a taxi, is a $25 resistor that has .001 dB less self-noise a better component that the 15c equivalent - in a fuzz circuit? The spec is better, the application doesn't care. You can build an amp that is amazingly sensitive to tube spec, that needs $3k a piece glass to be usable, or you can design in the right amount of negative feedback and get great results with a £50 tube. Check prices on Reverb, folks are paying insane amounts of money for what is essentially "badge engineering" in pedals because they have "the right chip that you can't get anymore", even though blind listening tests indicate absolutely no preference for the expensive model. Bob Weil, Josh Scott, Bill Finnegan have all experimented with this stuff and concluded the same.
After repairing lots of amps I find that the price point makes a difference. Some PCB amps in the 300 to 1000 dollar range are nothing but a huge pain in the ass to get at the components. It's almost as if the manufacturer gave no thought to serviceability.. I can understand why a manufacturer would use PCB construction but please make it easy to change a component without having to dismantle the entire amp. As for pedals why would anyone make a point to point wired pedal?
I agree...low budget requires a PCB and almost always they're not great, that's true, but it's also true that those are the worst implementations of PCB. I think for pedals some guys think that this will have the same mystique as PTP amps and therefore improve the sound in some meaningful way.
All of it makes sense except the servicing - 100% no way can you fully service or avoid as many issues with a PCB. And keep in mind, the way Suhr or Friedman does PCB is not the same as everyone else. Also if you have an issue in 20 years with a PCB, will you be able to find a replacement? The best amps have historically been hand wired- because that’s the expectation, and thats reality. These are engineer-centric opinions, not necessarily user or owner based opinions. Ask a rock star, not an amp builder.
You actually can if you know what you're designing for. The quality builds often will wire off pots, tube sockets, switches, and jacks as they are higher failure and higher usage parts. They'll keep the other parts on a PCB. Typically, there's not much to do on the main PCB if everything is executed properly and you have all your other parts already wired by hand and mounted to chassis, not PCB. You're right, Suhr, Friedman, Rivera, Fuchs, do PCBs really well. There are also a lot of bad PCBs out there that give quality PCB amps a bad name - but we're unfairly blaming PCBs for being the problem instead of bad engineering.
They need to A/B the Signal to Noise SNR measurement data values comparing hand wired to PCB circuit boards because there should be a big difference in Signal to Noise ratio. Another big issue is the higher the GAIN the worse the signal to noise ratio will be on hand wired pedals and amplifiers. The TOP JACK of having your input jack and output jacks so close together on pedals can creates oscillations/feedbacking from output to input coupling issues so the Isolation measurement needs to be in the specs. What are the measurements of isolation from input jack to output jack should be -80dB isolation but pedal manufactures aren't telling people what the isolation specs are. You should have include in the video lesson about lead solder VS lead free solder because there is a big audio differences between lead solder vs lead free solder guitar pedals. If you sweep 20hz to 20khz the frequency response profiles are difference from hand wired vs pcb circuit boards and also lead solder vs lead free solder. There is a reason why the manufactures aren't display on their websites the frequency response profiles plots because there is a big difference
A lot of this information is already baked into the process so to speak regarding the benefits of the PCB. Most manufacturers with an engineering background or are working with engineers for the most efficient, reliable, repeatable, and quietest operating end product all understand this. Coupling issues can be mitigated in the design with good layouts and as far as solder - there can be some difference in a vacuum but in practice there are thousands of solder joints between the guitar and the mixing board on any recording so isolating them all to lead solder would be quite a task and ultimate a fool's errand. I think a lot of the literature is abbreviated on specs sheets because it's beyond what the consumer can reasonably take in and understand. Some brands don't even publish their input and output impedances, let along frequency response plots when it comes to pedals or amps.
@@VertexEffectsInc If all guitar pedals brands, pickups, amplifiers would upload frequency response plots they would go out of business because people would visually see the differences and cut their sells more than half because they would visually see the differences instead of having OCD issues obsessing on issues that are not real or take others opinions to be biased that something is better or sounds better when its false.
@@waynegram8907 I don't think most consumers can interpret what they mean to know what the detectable difference might be.
@@VertexEffectsInc The companies can make youtube videos showing the frequency response profile plots and explain them for each of their products. This can be done so their customers understand what they are purchasing. Billy Corgan thinks that different color guitars changes the tone/sound/timbre, but I rather have proof of frequency response profile plots that different colors on a guitars body will change the frequency response profile. Is this a myth imaginary or proof that its real. Most guitar pedals, guitar pickups, guitar amplifiers companies are feeding off of 99% to brainwash their customers into thinking there is a big difference when its all imaginary and biased programming. There only way to know the differences between hardwire vs pcb is S/N ratio DATA LOG analysis in addition to the frequency response profile curves.
Mesa Boogie is an example of PCB amps that I believe are well made and of good quality.
Look up guitologist videos working on Mesa...
Would an amp like a Marshall SV20H be considered a good PCB circuit?
Not sure that I know that amp to verify.
@@VertexEffectsInc What about Marshall PCBs in general?
@@jkta97 mostly Marshall import PCB stuff is crap, even UK made can be really noisy, Mesa Boogie PCBs are really good though, it can be done.