People missed a big one. Veterans with nemesis bolters! Sniper rending 5+ 2+ to hit and relentless so can move and shoot. Also 2 w and can get cheap power weapons for some close combat.
Ok had to double check but if I’m not mistaken the Iliastus still replaces a heavy flamer for a Contempter. Looking back through all of the weapon options the only mention of a heavy flame is the one inside of the power fist which to me indicates that it would simply be an in built weapon. If so you could still take the shooting weapon arm and the fist while adding the assault cannon as an option.
The Cataphractii do get Heavy which increases their survivability vs. templates and blast weapons - it's not a crazy upgrade but it is nice and means they'll still be a bit more survivable than Tartaros with Vigils. This is especially good in Zone Mortalis, where all blast and template weapons get +1 Strength, which makes sense since that sort of fighting is a Fists specialty lorewise.
Great video as always! I have to assume Sons of Horus are the next army for this treatment, because those are the OTHER box art bois for the new edition. (Nothing to do with the fact that I play them, nope, not at all...)
I find sitting some bolter-heavy units behind cover and waiting for the enemy to come to me works exceptionally well for Imperial Fists. I can manage objectives in another part of the board, but if I’m stationary for FotL and get +1 to hit, then I’m ripping apart legionaries that try to attack me out in the open fairly easily with a favourable rate of attrition. That said, this might be mainly because I’m still sore I can’t charge Templars out of Rhinos
This video was awesome. The organization of the new Horus Heresy rules is incredibly flawed. A perfect example are special rules. Some are in the Liber. Some are in the rulebook. Some of the rules in the Liber are in unit descriptions (like Lock Step) and some are in the special rules section. This makes figuring out synergies between special rules and different factions incredibly frustrating. Having a video break these synergies down goes a long way to make up for how poorly the rules are written. Thank you for the great content, it's really improving my ability to work with this new rule set. It would have taken me weeks to figure out that I can have a zillion assault cannons in the army and now I can start modeling them. Of course I'm now worried that GW will change the rules in 12 months and all my assault cannons will have to become heavy bolters, but when you dance with the devil...
I feel vindicated about the advanced reaction. At first glance it does seem oddly situational and bad, but within the context of the legion as a whole it provides a melee bite to balance out the IF gunline. It's arguably most effective as a threat - you can force your opponent into difficult decisions with careful overlaying threat ranges. If you had something like a sky-hunter squadron of scimitars, then that's a significant amount of ground they can charge reliably. If the squadron is joined by a chaplain consul with the solar marshall trait they'll gain stubborn, Hatred(everything), an additional +1 WS on top of Hatred, and leadership 10 which is a very, very fast beatstick that's hard to pin down. That's excessively expensive, but an extreme example to make the point. At the very least it makes tac squads buddied up in groups of two very annoying with one always able to sacrifice itself to tag a threat while the other moves towards an objective/outside of charge range to then gun down what's leftover. Two tac squads could take down or at least significantly hamstring a more expensive enemy unit. It also makes templar brethren so much scarier since they get Furious Charge already. I'm just a big fan of this advanced reaction and think it's largely underrated.
minor things, the assault cannon can replace any vehicle heavy flamer for 20 points but that's pretty expensive, and solarites replace Thunder Hammers instead of Power Fists, still worth considering though if you want that strength/ap/cheaper extra attack over Brutal 2. The +1WS WLT also only works VS traitors but frankly it's crazy powerful anyway. Glad you're doing this btw, I haven't found anyone even close to you in quality HH content so it's a godsend for trying to teach my friends how to play the game. Plus I learned that blast templates actually work in overwatch from these videos which was a major change to my group's gameplay. Looking forward to the rest of the legions, especially WE, since they're my boys and have a weirdly high amount of weirdly written things. Most of which with Angron.
Think I covered those Robert! I glossed over the vehicular options because theyre too expensive. Gauntlet replaces fists (for 5pts) or TH (for 0) - you have both options, but functionally identical on most models. Glad its of use and that you’re enjoying it!
Noob Rules question: regarding Rending you mention that the Iliastus assault cannon could explode a vehicle with a lucky Pen - however I understand the Rending rule that the AP2 from Rending is only applied when comparing it to an armour save, but against vehicles you get the extra D3, but it mentions that those are not resolved at AP2 but their original AP, which means the Iliastus could never achieve the 7+ on the damage table necessary to explode the vehicle, or am I missing something here? Cheers!
I'd have to re-read the rules on the Iliastus Assault Cannon, but I believe you can take it on a vehicle to replace a heavy flamer which means it can be pintle-mounted. Now, this would effectively double the cost of a rhino, but you can pintle-mount the iliastus which would make it a bigger offensive threat and you'd still get the +1 to hit on both the assault cannon and the compulsory twin-linked bolter. Being Str6 it also just barely passes as a defensive weapon. I'd imagine these being what you'd want delivering your templar bretheren right into the thick of the enemy line. Of course, it's best to take advantage of the fact that it's an assault weapon on a heavy weapon squad and I think anyone running IF would be remiss not to take at least one squad of these. And, of course you nailed it with the tartaros + storm shields. A clear deliniation between melee threat unit and ranged threat unit is the main theme of the Imperial Fists Legion. The army wants you to decide to go all-in one way or another on each unit then use those units in tandem effectively. There really isn't a good "all-rounder" unit in the Fists. In this case, the Tartaros termies with storm shields are you melee threat with higher movement and sweeping advances while your cataphractii is where the fancy guns go since they can re-roll blast saves. Also, literally everyone in my army is getting a giant solarized gauntlet when possible. It's just too good.
I think the temptation for fists players will be to bring all the toys and end up with a very elite army. No problem versus other raw stats armies but can still be countered by armies who can out board control or outmanoeuvre them
It absolutely checks out that the fists would have access to some of the best gear throughout the heresy; terra had its own forges, afterall. Hell, I could run MKVII armor without having to modify it in the least and it would still be canonical. You’re right about that extra pip of weaponskill being essential; I was looking for ways to do that with my Iron Warriors as they do not have any specialized units with WS5…until the new Dominator Cohort rules dropped. Still a 0-1 choice, but with stock thunderhammers, they are of a similar cost to legion cataphractii but with the extra WS and leadership. I’m currently trying to convert a unit from the HH starter box. The second option is a legion retinue squad for a praetor, but, those are limited to only five models. At the end of the day, the IVth will be a gunline army most likely. I’m hoping to see some battle reports with the Iron Fire Rite of war; thus far, it’s aaaaalll Hammer of Olympia. Thus far, I have painted 80 of my 120 tactical marines I’ll be running with mass artillery support. It’s go-time:)
Honestly I think the Robots are an excellent blockade even when compared to Terminators. Their WS4 is a bit of a downer but they're still extremely tough with their 4++ when touching each other and force disordered charges.
Can’t a contemptor swap out the heavy flamer built into its powerfist for an assault cannon? Seems like a decent way to soften up infantry before a long charge, or just play mid-field shooting with it as well
It can but it's like 20 points to do that. Friend of mine has been slapping them on Leviathans since those plus storm cannons will obliterate most things.
Nube question: regarding model making and wysiwyg, if the squad is originally issued with bolters, does a Sgt gets to keep his bolter while also taking on a plasma pistol swap and a power weapon? Cheers!
@@Hearesy thanks for getting back to me, it was regarding a tactical squad I'm building, I'm trying to decide on whether I follow the instructions and product shots and give the Sgt the power weapon and plasma pistol with a bolter shoulder slung or style the piece like the rest of the squad with bolter in hand and model a holstered pistol and power sword/heavy chainsword(?) attached to his belt. Cheers
Ahh well, just put some shields on 5 of my cataphractii terminators. Do you reckon it’s worth kitting all of them with the solarite fists inc the sgts? Would love a couple of the illastus cannons but they don’t have any at FW at the mo.
As people have pointed out, at least they *do* get the heavy reroll which tartaros dont. So it is something at least! Generally i wouldnt fit *everything* out with the fanciest weps - at least leave a couple just with power weapons - but yeh solarites on termies is good!
No, i dont think so. The SW one requires an enemy to *start* within 12 of you, before they move. Its still good but way less useful than they IF one, imho.
Damn IF rules are a bit ridiculous. As an Iron Warrior player I'm really tapping into my Legions mindset. Not like IW are bad, but most options here feel like they are on another level
I fear a little bit that they may need to price the illiastus a little bit higher because of the fists hitting on 2+. I feel like with blood angels (who can also take them) they feel really good still, but pretty well balanced. "Only" 24 inches is also a drawback for a heavy Squad that would otherwise be happy staying back. Also double fist with inbuilt assault cannons (yeah, 50p is really expensive) is very very cool!
Classic casualty of everything being priced in 5s… if it was 15 itd be a bit too much! I actually think I’d probably take a shot off it and itd still be an “auto take”.
Definitely an oversight from GW that it's always strictly worse taking Cataphracti Vigil Storm Shield Terminators over Tartaros. I wish they wrote the rules as a Vigil Storm Shield giving a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 to the invulnerable save if the model already has one. In that way it gives Tartaros Terminators a 4+ invul, Cataphracti a 3+, and all other units a 4+. I was going to start converting all my boxset cata termies with vigil stormshields until I realized it's kind of pointless
People missed a big one. Veterans with nemesis bolters! Sniper rending 5+ 2+ to hit and relentless so can move and shoot. Also 2 w and can get cheap power weapons for some close combat.
Ok had to double check but if I’m not mistaken the Iliastus still replaces a heavy flamer for a Contempter. Looking back through all of the weapon options the only mention of a heavy flame is the one inside of the power fist which to me indicates that it would simply be an in built weapon. If so you could still take the shooting weapon arm and the fist while adding the assault cannon as an option.
The Cataphractii do get Heavy which increases their survivability vs. templates and blast weapons - it's not a crazy upgrade but it is nice and means they'll still be a bit more survivable than Tartaros with Vigils. This is especially good in Zone Mortalis, where all blast and template weapons get +1 Strength, which makes sense since that sort of fighting is a Fists specialty lorewise.
Great video as always!
I have to assume Sons of Horus are the next army for this treatment, because those are the OTHER box art bois for the new edition. (Nothing to do with the fact that I play them, nope, not at all...)
They also won the poll for next for me to do, Im only doing fists now as id already done them before my pc swallowed the files!
Hello,
great video as always!
Please do something like this for Alpha Legion :D
I second this!
I find sitting some bolter-heavy units behind cover and waiting for the enemy to come to me works exceptionally well for Imperial Fists. I can manage objectives in another part of the board, but if I’m stationary for FotL and get +1 to hit, then I’m ripping apart legionaries that try to attack me out in the open fairly easily with a favourable rate of attrition.
That said, this might be mainly because I’m still sore I can’t charge Templars out of Rhinos
YES ITS HERE!
Cheers. Been waiting for this episode myself.
Excellent video my man. Thanks for getting to my golden boys so quickly. Loving the videos.
Great guide! Excited for the next one!
This video was awesome. The organization of the new Horus Heresy rules is incredibly flawed. A perfect example are special rules. Some are in the Liber. Some are in the rulebook. Some of the rules in the Liber are in unit descriptions (like Lock Step) and some are in the special rules section.
This makes figuring out synergies between special rules and different factions incredibly frustrating.
Having a video break these synergies down goes a long way to make up for how poorly the rules are written.
Thank you for the great content, it's really improving my ability to work with this new rule set. It would have taken me weeks to figure out that I can have a zillion assault cannons in the army and now I can start modeling them.
Of course I'm now worried that GW will change the rules in 12 months and all my assault cannons will have to become heavy bolters, but when you dance with the devil...
Thanks! And yeh, that bit I cant help with unfortunately…
Imperial Fists are a top tier legion. I will be happy to field my Fulmentarus Terminators against them
I feel vindicated about the advanced reaction. At first glance it does seem oddly situational and bad, but within the context of the legion as a whole it provides a melee bite to balance out the IF gunline. It's arguably most effective as a threat - you can force your opponent into difficult decisions with careful overlaying threat ranges. If you had something like a sky-hunter squadron of scimitars, then that's a significant amount of ground they can charge reliably. If the squadron is joined by a chaplain consul with the solar marshall trait they'll gain stubborn, Hatred(everything), an additional +1 WS on top of Hatred, and leadership 10 which is a very, very fast beatstick that's hard to pin down. That's excessively expensive, but an extreme example to make the point. At the very least it makes tac squads buddied up in groups of two very annoying with one always able to sacrifice itself to tag a threat while the other moves towards an objective/outside of charge range to then gun down what's leftover. Two tac squads could take down or at least significantly hamstring a more expensive enemy unit. It also makes templar brethren so much scarier since they get Furious Charge already. I'm just a big fan of this advanced reaction and think it's largely underrated.
In general I think people are overrating and underrating lots of things in HH!
Who underrates the IF reaction? It's the best reaction in the game!
Totally shuts down combat armies.
@@14DEADSOUL don’t space wolves get this except they get I +2D6 instead of I + 1 D6?
minor things, the assault cannon can replace any vehicle heavy flamer for 20 points but that's pretty expensive, and solarites replace Thunder Hammers instead of Power Fists, still worth considering though if you want that strength/ap/cheaper extra attack over Brutal 2. The +1WS WLT also only works VS traitors but frankly it's crazy powerful anyway.
Glad you're doing this btw, I haven't found anyone even close to you in quality HH content so it's a godsend for trying to teach my friends how to play the game. Plus I learned that blast templates actually work in overwatch from these videos which was a major change to my group's gameplay.
Looking forward to the rest of the legions, especially WE, since they're my boys and have a weirdly high amount of weirdly written things. Most of which with Angron.
Think I covered those Robert! I glossed over the vehicular options because theyre too expensive. Gauntlet replaces fists (for 5pts) or TH (for 0) - you have both options, but functionally identical on most models.
Glad its of use and that you’re enjoying it!
Great help for me. Cheers
Looking forward to the Space Wolves How To Play vid
Noob Rules question: regarding Rending you mention that the Iliastus assault cannon could explode a vehicle with a lucky Pen - however I understand the Rending rule that the AP2 from Rending is only applied when comparing it to an armour save, but against vehicles you get the extra D3, but it mentions that those are not resolved at AP2 but their original AP, which means the Iliastus could never achieve the 7+ on the damage table necessary to explode the vehicle, or am I missing something here? Cheers!
Nope, you’re completely correct! Occasionally you get overexcited on a given topic and stuff like that sneaks in :)
@@Hearesy I mean that would be super awesome but would probably make the Iliastus a little OP 😉
I'd have to re-read the rules on the Iliastus Assault Cannon, but I believe you can take it on a vehicle to replace a heavy flamer which means it can be pintle-mounted. Now, this would effectively double the cost of a rhino, but you can pintle-mount the iliastus which would make it a bigger offensive threat and you'd still get the +1 to hit on both the assault cannon and the compulsory twin-linked bolter. Being Str6 it also just barely passes as a defensive weapon. I'd imagine these being what you'd want delivering your templar bretheren right into the thick of the enemy line. Of course, it's best to take advantage of the fact that it's an assault weapon on a heavy weapon squad and I think anyone running IF would be remiss not to take at least one squad of these. And, of course you nailed it with the tartaros + storm shields. A clear deliniation between melee threat unit and ranged threat unit is the main theme of the Imperial Fists Legion. The army wants you to decide to go all-in one way or another on each unit then use those units in tandem effectively. There really isn't a good "all-rounder" unit in the Fists. In this case, the Tartaros termies with storm shields are you melee threat with higher movement and sweeping advances while your cataphractii is where the fancy guns go since they can re-roll blast saves. Also, literally everyone in my army is getting a giant solarized gauntlet when possible. It's just too good.
I think the temptation for fists players will be to bring all the toys and end up with a very elite army. No problem versus other raw stats armies but can still be countered by armies who can out board control or outmanoeuvre them
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!
I'll have to watch this as one of my main opponents is IF! From what I've seen of them they're a bit scary lmao
I like the videos. But pictures would definitely help me stay focused while I’m distracted by painting.
It absolutely checks out that the fists would have access to some of the best gear throughout the heresy; terra had its own forges, afterall. Hell, I could run MKVII armor without having to modify it in the least and it would still be canonical. You’re right about that extra pip of weaponskill being essential; I was looking for ways to do that with my Iron Warriors as they do not have any specialized units with WS5…until the new Dominator Cohort rules dropped. Still a 0-1 choice, but with stock thunderhammers, they are of a similar cost to legion cataphractii but with the extra WS and leadership. I’m currently trying to convert a unit from the HH starter box. The second option is a legion retinue squad for a praetor, but, those are limited to only five models. At the end of the day, the IVth will be a gunline army most likely. I’m hoping to see some battle reports with the Iron Fire Rite of war; thus far, it’s aaaaalll Hammer of Olympia. Thus far, I have painted 80 of my 120 tactical marines I’ll be running with mass artillery support. It’s go-time:)
Honestly I think the Robots are an excellent blockade even when compared to Terminators. Their WS4 is a bit of a downer but they're still extremely tough with their 4++ when touching each other and force disordered charges.
I got a Phalanx squad armed with Volkite, i call it the death ray wall
Can’t a contemptor swap out the heavy flamer built into its powerfist for an assault cannon? Seems like a decent way to soften up infantry before a long charge, or just play mid-field shooting with it as well
It can but it's like 20 points to do that. Friend of mine has been slapping them on Leviathans since those plus storm cannons will obliterate most things.
Can you please give an example of an army setup you would recommend for Imperial Fists
The old Solarite Power Gauntlets had Specialist Weapon, and I kind of think that's going to be added in an errata. I suppose we'll see.
hope Dark Angels are up next!
Could you please make thousend sons next
Great video, unfortunately now I am completely torn whether to start mine as Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists 🤣
Oof tough choice. I rate iron warriors very highly too!
@@Hearesy I think Iron Warriors will be especially great once Mechanicum releases and we can bring all the (hopefully plastic) automata we like
any chance to get you to do one of these for sons of horus?
Has the 3 x assault cannons predator with +1 ballistic skill situation been handled?
Isnt the Solarite gauntlet s8? I dont see s10 anywhere
Ok i just found out that the german book has Sx2 which is wrong. English book has S10 🤣
Nube question: regarding model making and wysiwyg, if the squad is originally issued with bolters, does a Sgt gets to keep his bolter while also taking on a plasma pistol swap and a power weapon? Cheers!
Depends on the individual squad rules. Some do, some dont.
@@Hearesy thanks for getting back to me, it was regarding a tactical squad I'm building, I'm trying to decide on whether I follow the instructions and product shots and give the Sgt the power weapon and plasma pistol with a bolter shoulder slung or style the piece like the rest of the squad with bolter in hand and model a holstered pistol and power sword/heavy chainsword(?) attached to his belt. Cheers
Ahh well, just put some shields on 5 of my cataphractii terminators. Do you reckon it’s worth kitting all of them with the solarite fists inc the sgts?
Would love a couple of the illastus cannons but they don’t have any at FW at the mo.
As people have pointed out, at least they *do* get the heavy reroll which tartaros dont. So it is something at least!
Generally i wouldnt fit *everything* out with the fanciest weps - at least leave a couple just with power weapons - but yeh solarites on termies is good!
Cata Termies with Shields and Fists can be used for the Huscurls unit, which will have a WS 5
You say the IF reaction is a better emperor's children reaction. Would that make the IF reaction a worse Space Wolf reaction?
No, i dont think so. The SW one requires an enemy to *start* within 12 of you, before they move. Its still good but way less useful than they IF one, imho.
Damn IF rules are a bit ridiculous. As an Iron Warrior player I'm really tapping into my Legions mindset. Not like IW are bad, but most options here feel like they are on another level
13:20 does GW sells Assault Cannons alredy?
It does not :/
Ace video that
Thank you!
I fear a little bit that they may need to price the illiastus a little bit higher because of the fists hitting on 2+. I feel like with blood angels (who can also take them) they feel really good still, but pretty well balanced. "Only" 24 inches is also a drawback for a heavy Squad that would otherwise be happy staying back. Also double fist with inbuilt assault cannons (yeah, 50p is really expensive) is very very cool!
Classic casualty of everything being priced in 5s… if it was 15 itd be a bit too much! I actually think I’d probably take a shot off it and itd still be an “auto take”.
The solarite gauntlet is five points plus the points for the power fist so it's like 15 points
Yep. And worth it, especially if you have 2 weps (ie are not a terminator)
@@Hearesy didn't say they weren't. Just your video made it sound like they are only 5 and that might miss lead people.
hmmm you dont talk about rites of war on purpose? thats counts too for a legion comparison imo
Next video!
@@Hearesy ok, when do you upload it? :D
Soon :)
Definitely an oversight from GW that it's always strictly worse taking Cataphracti Vigil Storm Shield Terminators over Tartaros. I wish they wrote the rules as a Vigil Storm Shield giving a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 to the invulnerable save if the model already has one. In that way it gives Tartaros Terminators a 4+ invul, Cataphracti a 3+, and all other units a 4+. I was going to start converting all my boxset cata termies with vigil stormshields until I realized it's kind of pointless
Should have been +1 absolutely
Rule of cool, my dude. Rule of cool.
Good rules can exist alongside rule of cool!
I have both, 10 tartaros and 5 catphractii that can alao act as huscarls ( even worse). But its ok not too big of a problem.
@@3v3rhard you're saying the huscarls aren't a good unit?
How to work around the movement phase advanced reaction? Summon daemons right next to them in the shooting phase! Mwahahaha