I've been greatly enjoying these as I sit here and paint Iron Warriors. Top quality videos, keep up the good work. Also, consider this a request for an Iron Warriors in-depth review/strategy video.
I got a couple games with IW under my belt this weekend. Honestly theyre kind of easy-mode getting bonus str against dreadnoughts and go a lesser extent vehicles. Bitter Fury is absolutely crazy too. Shrapnel bolters with Hammer of Olympia is a bit underwhelming, but maybe my dice were just cold.
For your Legion Specific Tips: IW gain their bonus on strength in Close Combat too, not only shooting. So they are able to hurt even a Leviathan with their normal attacks, although they are better of with their S7 Krak Grenades.
Great video mate, I played against two contemptors at 1k points over the weekend with my fluffy all-shrapnel Iron Warriors list. Rough game, but I eked out a win by killing off the few infantry units he had and then just grinding down the dread over time. One correction - Iron Warriors gain +1 strength against dreads, not +1 to wound. I've yet to field it in anger but I suspect a Volkite heavy/support squad would be effective against dreads thanks to the high volume of attacks that become S7 against dreads and vehicles.
Minor point, I don't see anything that says Dreads do not get the extra attack for having at least 2 melee weapons, so fist contemptors have 5 attacks base (which is in line with thunder hammer/lightning claw praetors, whom are 165 for their package. One more than a Centurion with a similar loadout who's 105). Makes entering melee with them using weapons that will kill them typically mean a sacrifice of 3-4 bodies. Good generalist advice all the same and glad to hear it.
Robert - general concensus is that they have 4A with 2 melee weps. The dread rules are a weird mishmash of reminder text and rules. Note the italics on the contemptor datasheet. We play them as 4A with two weps, which I believe is correct.
It's very clearly written in the Contemptor entry: A3 and in the wargear options *A contemptor with 2x fits, 2x chainfists, or a fist and chain fist gains 1 attack. This gives them 4A base.
Yes, they have 6 attacks in the charge. Idk why people ignore this. The Leviathan has the bonus in its statline by default and looses it if not taking 2 melee weapons. There's no reason to think the normal melee weapon rules don't apply to dreads.
@@Cornivius well the reasoning people have is they're reminding you of how the core rules work since sometimes they do that. However when they do that in every other case (White Scars for example) it has an asterisk and explicitly explains that they're including rules because of it being changed. The Dread portion lacks the qualifier that the second weapon is for multiple weapons. So I agree with your take but I can see why people think otherwise. Especially since the Primarchs used to include their extra attack for two weapons in their datasheet (with written confirmation that this was the case). Now they have it written as explicitly not included.
My gaming group just had their first v2 event yesterday and how good dreads are and how to deal with them definitely came up in the discussion afterwards, so this video is definitely appreciated. Just one rules quibble to point out, I don't believe the emperor's children sonic shriekers work vs. dreads since they're fearless. Your point that elite EC combat units working potentially working vs dreads still stands though with access to high initiative murderous strike and the stance dancing thing they do.
Love this good work. We have an improv guide of not doubling on any choice outside of core and if you are let people know ahead of time so they can bump up
For my night lords I was thinking a sabre or three with neutron weapons. They work out 100pts each, count as vehicles so get the outnumbering bonus against dreads and if using terror assault, are only 24" range anyway.
blood angles characters taking perdition weapons is an auto-include, for one less attack you get rending(6+) and brutal 2. also blood angels have assault cannons as well
Depends on the character. I still rate Paragon Blades a little higher because of Murderous Strike and AP2 at initiative, so I’d still give one to a Praetor or a Champion, but for non-champion consuls and sergeants the Perdition Blade is a no brainer
Most cost efficient dreadnought killer I've been able to think up is an Iron Hands Moritat with dual Grav Pistols and a Jump-Pack. 12 Haywire Shots on a BS5 platform, range 12". For legion agnostic, Recon Marines can all be given Melta-Bombs which can make them a nasty surprise to someone.
Note that Night Lords' +1 to wound is almost certainly going to apply in melee as well as shooting so your point about tac marines with chain bayonets for example for blood angels works similarly for Night Lords. In fact the +1 doesn't depend on charging so will continue for ongoing combats.
Thunder Hammers on WS5+(or even 4 but you need loads), massed paired Lighting Claws(RG Dark Furies obliterate Dreads), Legion specific weapons with good rending(falax blades, Equinox weapons, RG claws, chainblades etc etc) or anything with Brutal special rule and AP2 for melee. Thunder Hammers in general have most versatile profile in game - mastercrafted TH on any Centurion/Consul that may find himself in CC will shred a dread over couple turns. Also don't forget good old krak grenades - these auto hit vs Dreadnaughts, and surrounded by beefy Tactical squad, even when wounding on 5+ you can force enough saves for them to add up to meaningful chip damage. For ranged, aside from obvious, such as las and plas, armourbane rerolls wounds, haywire is good, so is anything aggresively costed with good weight of fire and 6+ strength - volkite culverines delete swaths of marines of the table, but against fury of the ancients, 10 man squad still manages to put 2 wounds per shooting phase on a dread on average. Another hidden gem are armies with mass Sniper Rifles - these are pretty alright against Dreads if you don't have some apothecaries to snipe - and come on Line units. Another option is to supress them with Shock Pulse weapon. Additionally dreads are NOT efficient shooting platforms in any configuration - they are paying premium for the durability(twin las dread costs same as land raider, which is hardly most efficient shooting platform, it has same durability vs antitank, with bonus that it can't blow up, but it also can be more easily tied up, rended and plasma, medium strength (6/7) high volume, poison and fleshbane work against it unlike Land raider), so shooty dreads have lowest target priority provided there is anything else with similar profile you could be shooting. Another option to consider against mass Dreadnaught army is Night Fighting - then use searchlights to light up your targets - Dreadnaught armies are hard pressed for upgrades that let them ignore 24" NF limit. Vehicles and infantry aren't. Speaking of inefficient, Daredeos and Leviathans add awful mobility on top of that(yes Leviathan has scary numbers...but also nonexistent range, massive cost and, measely 6 inch movement with Heavy type - phosphex is what keeps a threat), so Contemptors are the priority. On top of that many Legions are very effective in killing Dreadnaughts(Iron Warriors, Blood Angels, Word Bearers etc.)
Gah! You've made me rethink my entire strategy. Replacing my chaplain consul with an Armistos with a thunder hammer. I lose the huge leadership bonus but the missiles will benefit from the cognis signum. Just found the parts to make the Armistos - at least it'll be a more appropriate Lore choice for the type of heavy RG chapter that this army will represent. Losing that stubborn leadership 10 from the chaplain might be a blow to the despoiler squad.
Thanks for the video, love how many options you gave to deal with them! Most other people just gave the same "lascannon spam" and i dont think thats very fluffy or fun to play with/against.
You have to reroll successes but it does still wound more often than most guns, yeh. The problem is they get a 2+ save against it and itll only get one hit, so not very effective overall.
Hello! What are your thoughts on the iron warriors graviton Crushers? When fighting dreads arm all my dude with graviton Crushers and charge? Dread killers? Iron Within.
I think only characters get access to graviton weapons. So sarges and so forth. Not sure though. My recommendation? As an IW, just use brute force. The +1 to Strength works wonders with a large volume of melee and ranged attacks. A large squad of tacs in a Hammer of Olympia List should be able to dispatch a dread with 40-80 S5 shots rerolling 1s and 20-40 S5 shredding attacks in the subsequent melee.
I put a master of Signals on with my heavy Lascannon squad for +1 bs and I wiped a Dreadnought in one go. Luckily it was my only valid target so I had 4 Lascannon shots from my Dreadnought as backup
I'm hoping that one castra ferrum with a chainfist, powerfist and 2 meltaguns, 10 missile launchers on foot, a proteus with a multimelta, a kratos and 2 rhinos with multimeltas will be enough at 2k. If it comes to the powerfists on the sgts it'll be too late. My list is very modular at the moment. It can be less combat oriented and more shooty by replacing Dark Furies with their apothecary point for point for a heavy support squad with 10 lascannons and another m/m rhino.
@@noskillzone531 Heh! If they get there. Armour 11 on the front is very weak. Iron Warriors can take them out with bolters and lucky 6s glancing. Use those smoke launchers; something I always forget to do.
breacher with a thunder hammer on the serg sound particularly good at annoying or killing a dread with very little point invested. But that kind of the job of that unit anyway, behind annoying and holding ground
At over 50% extra points than a tactical squad for only 1/3 chance of saving AND needing multiple saves thanks to brutal, breachers are actually way worse than tac marines! The secret to dreads is not to try to tank their hits - if they hit you, youre dead. Instead, just hit them harder and faster, or make them waste time hitting cheap things!
Before I watch the video, my answer to Dreads is 3 Graviton Rapiers and 3 Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're cheap, and pretty effective for both area denial and killing things, plus they look neat :)) As a side note: I can't wait to see how the Custode Dreadnoughts will be statted 🥲
Nice one! Don't over hestimate your gal vorbak tho, true that they don't get instant death again a contemptor fist, but against a contemptor chainfist or any close combat weapon on a leviathan it's an other story, all those weapon are st 10 or more. all the other way of dealing with them are still valid tho, but let those gal vorbak kill something else seems a better idea
So, playing Raven Guard, I've actually ended up dropping my Dreadnought(s) in favor of other options. I've found that one of the best tools for dealing with Dreadnoughts is Rending. Lightning Claws, Autocannon, Raven's Talons, Nemesis Bolters, basically anything with Rending will make short work of Dreadnoughts, particularly if they can re-roll to wound, like with Lightning Claws.
I think Raven’s Talons (SP?) are a good example of overwheming it with good melee. But with WS5 and lots of attacks plus rend on a 5+, you still need to throw 36~ WS5 Rending 5+ attacks at a dreadnought to kill it. In that time its attacked you twice, killing 2-3 guys each time, so that’d be 10 Raven’s Claws Marines to kill a dreadnought over 2 turns. Now imagine you only rended on a 6, and maybe had WS4! Rending stuff *is* definitely better than not rending, but remember how expensive some stuff is. 5 Nemesis bolters will do 0.6~ damage per turn and thats a 135 point unit. 125pts of heavy support marines with ACs will do under 1 damage. I dont think there are viable rending weapons that have good enough volume for their points to shoot a dreadnought - plasma guns are still the closest and they’re pricy!
@@Hearesy Also, the math with Raven's Talons is off, just as with Lightning Claws, Raven's Talons get +2 Attacks, so 10 WS5 Marines with Raven's Talons would get 40 attacks, 50 on the charge, because most Marines that have WS5 also have 2 Attacks each base, and if you're paying for all those lads with Claws, you can bet they'll have a way to ensure the charge. That means the Dreadnought is dead in 1 turn, having only killed 2-3 guys himself. Now, if these are, say, Dark Furies, the Dark Furies are swinging with 51 attacks on the charge, at Initiative 5 because they have Sudden Strike(1). They're only WS 4, but with that many attacks, it doesn't matter. 17 hits, will get through, and will deal between 9 and 10 Rending Wounds, thanks to the Rending 5+ and Re-rolls to Wound because they're special Lightning Claws. With that, you have a dead Dreadnought before he's even got a chance to swing. It's about 275 points to do all of that, but now your opponent's Dreadnought is dead, and you still have a major melee threat jumping around with Movement 14, ready to ruin someone else's day.
@@Hearesy the other, frankly hilarious, option that Raven Guard have are the Mor Deythan. You can only pull this off once per game, but it's really funny. So, Mor Deythan have a fun special rule that gives them Rending 4+ on any of their shooting attacks. You can kill a single Dreadnought with 6 Mor Deythan with Combi-Vokite. It comes out to 205 Points, which is about equivalent to a tooled up Dreadnought. Now, the Mor Deythan can get within range with those guns on Turn 1 because they have Infiltrate and Scout. I don't usually do this because I use Mor Deythan for tank hunting, but if your opponent doesn't have tanks, 4 Combi-Melta and 2 Melta guns will do in a pinch.
Ooh I had those guys stats totally wrong! Teach me to post late at night. Anyway, theyre a good example of a good unit, but the point still stands: now imagine you’re rend 6; youd need 54 WS5 lightning claw attacks, or 81 WS4, to do the same. Theres just not a lot of units that can get the volume needed with rend melee weapons.
How about veteran squads with full melta? makes the most sense at 10-man. Hitting on 4s, armorbane s8 and d3 wounds per failed 5++. Not the cheapest, but tooled up could also deal with other things? Slap on a libby biomancy buff and they're not even getting ID'd anymore!
Ah I didnt realise you meant meltabombs. Yeh in that case they would probably do the job, as I mentioned in the video, but its a very expensive unit for the job.
You need volume of attacks and AP2 which is hard to find outside of melee, so melee is generally best. Failing that, meltaguns and lascannons work, as do plasma or phosphex. Remember each terminator is generally 40-50 points so even killing one at a timr chipping away at them with bolters can be much more valuable than it seems!
@@Hearesy wow thank you for the detailed reply I really appreciate it, I’m playing iron warriors and the leviathan siege dreadnought looks so fitting thematically that that might be my pick with this.
Don't forget that pretty much every power armour unit has Krak grenades, which are s6 ap3 and automatically hit dreads and automata. Obviously better against automata which so far don't seem like they get 2+ saves but still worth remembering, especially for Night Lords!
@@Hearesy well if you had 15 tac marines bundle into one remembering they can use krak will be a lot more effective than their normal attacks! Most people will forget they can do this.
@@latro666 Only one can make an attack with a krak grenade. The krak is actually a debuff bc it means you can't fall back as a result of Our Weapons Are Useless.
T'au rail guns!!! who?!? you know... the T'au. battle armor and big guns, lots of guns! oh... the T'au. you mean, the primitive spear chucking hunter-gather xenos! we'll revisit that thought in about 10,000 years!
I have to say that I really enjoy the fact that not you're approaching with any emotional bias as well as not focusing on "getting the most out of...." . I also really appreciate that you are emphasizing on how people should self regulate when it comes to going overboard. It doesn't seem like YT content creators are really emphasizing that very much.
Thanks! Ive seen plenty of negative comments about me talking about math/tactics, but I think one of the reasons its important to understand the relative power levels of stuff is so that people *can* self regulate effectively… and so the “oh, my army is a narrative fury of the ancients list” crowd have no excuse :)
It will work on the tank, but the melta bomb will just do D3 wounds to the dreadnought because of its automatic shielding. You are also striking at I1 with the bomb, so you might lose a few dudes. But, I think a whole squad all laying down bombs should take one out.
@@Hearesy - Magic lightning claws? You mean the ones where I need to buy the normal ones first, and then pay more points on top of that to upgrade to 1 more pip of rending? Those ones? The ones that give rending, when RG already have rending in their Falcons trait AND in their only non-ally RoW? So there are 3 instances of rending, all running simultaneously, that do not stack? Those lightning claws? I see RG as one of the worst legions right now. Recon teams are a "classic RG" unit, but they have Infiltrate given twice due to being Talons. Mor Deythan lost stealth/cameleoline, etc. I see them only strong if you want to play a whole list of light infantry. Maybe it is a problem of "grass is greener...", heh - but I haven't given up on them yet!
Knowing the difference between a competitive list and one more conventionally "Heresy" is an important thing I didn't know about. It's difficult since everyone in my local is brand new. So, 40k min/max-ing is all we know and it's like instictual at this point. Spamming is an easy enough rule of thumb, but we haven't gotten any games in since everyone only had the starter box. Now that people have had time to buy from forgeworld and new plastic kits have come out I know at least a few people are likely working on skew lists. I was building one myself actually. This video made me stop and re-evaluate because I love dreadnoughts and tanks too much. We all got into Heresy because we were tired of things like this in 40k, but ironically thats how we're listbuilding because it's all we know. the vicious cycle never ends.
Great takeaway Kyle! Getting the balance is hard but I think worth it, and actually pretty rewarding. Im working on a unit of 5 melee veterans with power weapons for iron hands - getting to run stuff you love because you love it is awesome! And ultimately, if you KNOW competitive, you’re in a great position to know how to NOT do it.
I don't see how it is different from 40k, exactly the same play with people who want to have fun, not destroy their opponent, buy, paint and play with models which you like, not what is hot meta now (which always was stupid, even more stupid now in 40k, when you get regular balance update every quarter of even more often) Don't feel comfortable playing with a screwed list? reject play with this person, or discuss how to mitigate this
@@gi1dor So even though I was never a meta-chaser (I'm not rich enough lol), I still built my admech and black templar lists to perform as well as possible and the expectation was that my opponent would do the same. In Heresy, a lot of the fun comes from recreating something in the narrative. The time and place matters in Heresy games where they don't in 40k - I don't think I've ever talked to my opponent about which planet our game is taking place in 40k. I could take an all-dreadnought army, but it's not fun twice as much as it would be in 40k. 1) spamming isn't fun 2) it breaks the narrative experience because nowhere would a legion send 9 dreadnoughts without any space marines to a battle. I could give all of my imperial fists nemesis bolt rifles (snipers) to maxemize their +1 hit with bolt weapons legion trait, and this would be the sensible thing to do in 40k, but it wouldn't be fun in Heresy because the Imperial Fists never fight like that and they call other legions who do fight like that cowards. I could also put a librarian in my Imperial Fists army, but unless it's a battle during the siege of terra it doesn't makes sense because every psyker is still locked in Dorn's basement until the final battle. So that's a little bit of how it's different. There are also a lot fewer Heresy players than 40k. So, rejecting a game with someone (which I have and still do in 40k) might mean there's no one else to play against that day. So since it's a smaller player pool everyone has to work a bit more to make it a real community.
Ian, your emphasis on fair & social play coupled with tips in dealing with meta chasers makes our hobby stronger. Cheers & thanks, Mal
Thanks Mal! Exactly what I’m going for so really great to hear that!
I've been greatly enjoying these as I sit here and paint Iron Warriors. Top quality videos, keep up the good work. Also, consider this a request for an Iron Warriors in-depth review/strategy video.
I got a couple games with IW under my belt this weekend. Honestly theyre kind of easy-mode getting bonus str against dreadnoughts and go a lesser extent vehicles. Bitter Fury is absolutely crazy too. Shrapnel bolters with Hammer of Olympia is a bit underwhelming, but maybe my dice were just cold.
Seconded! I'd love some IW tactica.
Third…ed?
For your Legion Specific Tips: IW gain their bonus on strength in Close Combat too, not only shooting. So they are able to hurt even a Leviathan with their normal attacks, although they are better of with their S7 Krak Grenades.
Great video mate, I played against two contemptors at 1k points over the weekend with my fluffy all-shrapnel Iron Warriors list. Rough game, but I eked out a win by killing off the few infantry units he had and then just grinding down the dread over time.
One correction - Iron Warriors gain +1 strength against dreads, not +1 to wound. I've yet to field it in anger but I suspect a Volkite heavy/support squad would be effective against dreads thanks to the high volume of attacks that become S7 against dreads and vehicles.
Minor point, I don't see anything that says Dreads do not get the extra attack for having at least 2 melee weapons, so fist contemptors have 5 attacks base (which is in line with thunder hammer/lightning claw praetors, whom are 165 for their package. One more than a Centurion with a similar loadout who's 105). Makes entering melee with them using weapons that will kill them typically mean a sacrifice of 3-4 bodies. Good generalist advice all the same and glad to hear it.
Robert - general concensus is that they have 4A with 2 melee weps. The dread rules are a weird mishmash of reminder text and rules. Note the italics on the contemptor datasheet. We play them as 4A with two weps, which I believe is correct.
It's very clearly written in the Contemptor entry: A3 and in the wargear options *A contemptor with 2x fits, 2x chainfists, or a fist and chain fist gains 1 attack. This gives them 4A base.
Yes, they have 6 attacks in the charge. Idk why people ignore this. The Leviathan has the bonus in its statline by default and looses it if not taking 2 melee weapons. There's no reason to think the normal melee weapon rules don't apply to dreads.
@@Cornivius well the reasoning people have is they're reminding you of how the core rules work since sometimes they do that. However when they do that in every other case (White Scars for example) it has an asterisk and explicitly explains that they're including rules because of it being changed.
The Dread portion lacks the qualifier that the second weapon is for multiple weapons. So I agree with your take but I can see why people think otherwise. Especially since the Primarchs used to include their extra attack for two weapons in their datasheet (with written confirmation that this was the case). Now they have it written as explicitly not included.
My gaming group just had their first v2 event yesterday and how good dreads are and how to deal with them definitely came up in the discussion afterwards, so this video is definitely appreciated. Just one rules quibble to point out, I don't believe the emperor's children sonic shriekers work vs. dreads since they're fearless. Your point that elite EC combat units working potentially working vs dreads still stands though with access to high initiative murderous strike and the stance dancing thing they do.
My man needs to do a Sergeant Johnson impression- “We’ve all run the simulations, they’re tough, but they ain’t invincible”
Man, love this stuff. Great to listen to while hobbying!
Loving your videos, mate! As someone new to Horus Heresy, they are supremely helpful!
Thanks and really glad to hear it!
Love this good work.
We have an improv guide of not doubling on any choice outside of core and if you are let people know ahead of time so they can bump up
For my night lords I was thinking a sabre or three with neutron weapons. They work out 100pts each, count as vehicles so get the outnumbering bonus against dreads and if using terror assault, are only 24" range anyway.
Really enjoying the content
Thanks, awesome to hear!
blood angles characters taking perdition weapons is an auto-include, for one less attack you get rending(6+) and brutal 2. also blood angels have assault cannons as well
Depends on the character. I still rate Paragon Blades a little higher because of Murderous Strike and AP2 at initiative, so I’d still give one to a Praetor or a Champion, but for non-champion consuls and sergeants the Perdition Blade is a no brainer
great video! very excited to hear more of your thoughts about Golden Keshig. I love them, and think theyre a super well balanced glass cannon unit.
Cracking video, really insightful and balanced.
Thank you sir!
Most cost efficient dreadnought killer I've been able to think up is an Iron Hands Moritat with dual Grav Pistols and a Jump-Pack. 12 Haywire Shots on a BS5 platform, range 12". For legion agnostic, Recon Marines can all be given Melta-Bombs which can make them a nasty surprise to someone.
Moritat is the most efficient everything-killer. Unfortunately he’s pretty broken!
Note that Night Lords' +1 to wound is almost certainly going to apply in melee as well as shooting so your point about tac marines with chain bayonets for example for blood angels works similarly for Night Lords. In fact the +1 doesn't depend on charging so will continue for ongoing combats.
Yeh good shout!
Thunder Hammers on WS5+(or even 4 but you need loads), massed paired Lighting Claws(RG Dark Furies obliterate Dreads), Legion specific weapons with good rending(falax blades, Equinox weapons, RG claws, chainblades etc etc) or anything with Brutal special rule and AP2 for melee. Thunder Hammers in general have most versatile profile in game - mastercrafted TH on any Centurion/Consul that may find himself in CC will shred a dread over couple turns. Also don't forget good old krak grenades - these auto hit vs Dreadnaughts, and surrounded by beefy Tactical squad, even when wounding on 5+ you can force enough saves for them to add up to meaningful chip damage.
For ranged, aside from obvious, such as las and plas, armourbane rerolls wounds, haywire is good, so is anything aggresively costed with good weight of fire and 6+ strength - volkite culverines delete swaths of marines of the table, but against fury of the ancients, 10 man squad still manages to put 2 wounds per shooting phase on a dread on average. Another hidden gem are armies with mass Sniper Rifles - these are pretty alright against Dreads if you don't have some apothecaries to snipe - and come on Line units. Another option is to supress them with Shock Pulse weapon. Additionally dreads are NOT efficient shooting platforms in any configuration - they are paying premium for the durability(twin las dread costs same as land raider, which is hardly most efficient shooting platform, it has same durability vs antitank, with bonus that it can't blow up, but it also can be more easily tied up, rended and plasma, medium strength (6/7) high volume, poison and fleshbane work against it unlike Land raider), so shooty dreads have lowest target priority provided there is anything else with similar profile you could be shooting. Another option to consider against mass Dreadnaught army is Night Fighting - then use searchlights to light up your targets - Dreadnaught armies are hard pressed for upgrades that let them ignore 24" NF limit. Vehicles and infantry aren't.
Speaking of inefficient, Daredeos and Leviathans add awful mobility on top of that(yes Leviathan has scary numbers...but also nonexistent range, massive cost and, measely 6 inch movement with Heavy type - phosphex is what keeps a threat), so Contemptors are the priority.
On top of that many Legions are very effective in killing Dreadnaughts(Iron Warriors, Blood Angels, Word Bearers etc.)
Gah! You've made me rethink my entire strategy. Replacing my chaplain consul with an Armistos with a thunder hammer. I lose the huge leadership bonus but the missiles will benefit from the cognis signum. Just found the parts to make the Armistos - at least it'll be a more appropriate Lore choice for the type of heavy RG chapter that this army will represent. Losing that stubborn leadership 10 from the chaplain might be a blow to the despoiler squad.
Thanks for the video, love how many options you gave to deal with them! Most other people just gave the same "lascannon spam" and i dont think thats very fluffy or fun to play with/against.
Thanks August!
Love your videos man
Is the Fleshbane rule on Death Guard chem flame weaponry a good way to deal with Dreadnoughts?
You have to reroll successes but it does still wound more often than most guns, yeh. The problem is they get a 2+ save against it and itll only get one hit, so not very effective overall.
Hello!
What are your thoughts on the iron warriors graviton Crushers? When fighting dreads arm all my dude with graviton Crushers and charge?
Dread killers?
Iron Within.
I think only characters get access to graviton weapons. So sarges and so forth. Not sure though. My recommendation? As an IW, just use brute force. The +1 to Strength works wonders with a large volume of melee and ranged attacks. A large squad of tacs in a Hammer of Olympia List should be able to dispatch a dread with 40-80 S5 shots rerolling 1s and 20-40 S5 shredding attacks in the subsequent melee.
Sergeants can and they are decent, but id rather have a thunder hammer and be good at killing terminators etc too!
Do you think you could do a video on using the Baneblade and it’s subtypes in your army lists?
Probably be a long time before Id get round to that, especially given my thoughts on that pdf, unfortunately!
@@Hearesy damn, I’m looking to build up my iron wing force and wanted to know if it is worth the investment
Yeh if you want a quick answer - from a gameplay pov, definitely no. It will just die on turn 1 a lot and be disappointing, I think.
@@Hearesy damn
@@sinthariasinestra9777 can’t even use the shadow sword as a back line beat stick?
Do rad grenades reduce a dreadnoughts toughness in close combat?
I put a master of Signals on with my heavy Lascannon squad for +1 bs and I wiped a Dreadnought in one go. Luckily it was my only valid target so I had 4 Lascannon shots from my Dreadnought as backup
I'm hoping that one castra ferrum with a chainfist, powerfist and 2 meltaguns, 10 missile launchers on foot, a proteus with a multimelta, a kratos and 2 rhinos with multimeltas will be enough at 2k.
If it comes to the powerfists on the sgts it'll be too late. My list is very modular at the moment. It can be less combat oriented and more shooty by replacing Dark Furies with their apothecary point for point for a heavy support squad with 10 lascannons and another m/m rhino.
Don’t forget, rhinos can be great at ramming them too and subsequently blocking them for a turn
@@noskillzone531 Heh! If they get there. Armour 11 on the front is very weak. Iron Warriors can take them out with bolters and lucky 6s glancing. Use those smoke launchers; something I always forget to do.
breacher with a thunder hammer on the serg sound particularly good at annoying or killing a dread with very little point invested. But that kind of the job of that unit anyway, behind annoying and holding ground
At over 50% extra points than a tactical squad for only 1/3 chance of saving AND needing multiple saves thanks to brutal, breachers are actually way worse than tac marines! The secret to dreads is not to try to tank their hits - if they hit you, youre dead. Instead, just hit them harder and faster, or make them waste time hitting cheap things!
@@Hearesy oh very true, I didn't thought of brutal at that time
Before I watch the video, my answer to Dreads is 3 Graviton Rapiers and 3 Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're cheap, and pretty effective for both area denial and killing things, plus they look neat :))
As a side note: I can't wait to see how the Custode Dreadnoughts will be statted 🥲
Nice one!
Don't over hestimate your gal vorbak tho, true that they don't get instant death again a contemptor fist, but against a contemptor chainfist or any close combat weapon on a leviathan it's an other story, all those weapon are st 10 or more.
all the other way of dealing with them are still valid tho, but let those gal vorbak kill something else seems a better idea
So, playing Raven Guard, I've actually ended up dropping my Dreadnought(s) in favor of other options. I've found that one of the best tools for dealing with Dreadnoughts is Rending. Lightning Claws, Autocannon, Raven's Talons, Nemesis Bolters, basically anything with Rending will make short work of Dreadnoughts, particularly if they can re-roll to wound, like with Lightning Claws.
I think Raven’s Talons (SP?) are a good example of overwheming it with good melee. But with WS5 and lots of attacks plus rend on a 5+, you still need to throw 36~ WS5 Rending 5+ attacks at a dreadnought to kill it. In that time its attacked you twice, killing 2-3 guys each time, so that’d be 10 Raven’s Claws Marines to kill a dreadnought over 2 turns.
Now imagine you only rended on a 6, and maybe had WS4!
Rending stuff *is* definitely better than not rending, but remember how expensive some stuff is. 5 Nemesis bolters will do 0.6~ damage per turn and thats a 135 point unit. 125pts of heavy support marines with ACs will do under 1 damage. I dont think there are viable rending weapons that have good enough volume for their points to shoot a dreadnought - plasma guns are still the closest and they’re pricy!
@@Hearesy this is just what I've found to be effective by experimenting on the tabletop.
@@Hearesy Also, the math with Raven's Talons is off, just as with Lightning Claws, Raven's Talons get +2 Attacks, so 10 WS5 Marines with Raven's Talons would get 40 attacks, 50 on the charge, because most Marines that have WS5 also have 2 Attacks each base, and if you're paying for all those lads with Claws, you can bet they'll have a way to ensure the charge. That means the Dreadnought is dead in 1 turn, having only killed 2-3 guys himself. Now, if these are, say, Dark Furies, the Dark Furies are swinging with 51 attacks on the charge, at Initiative 5 because they have Sudden Strike(1). They're only WS 4, but with that many attacks, it doesn't matter. 17 hits, will get through, and will deal between 9 and 10 Rending Wounds, thanks to the Rending 5+ and Re-rolls to Wound because they're special Lightning Claws. With that, you have a dead Dreadnought before he's even got a chance to swing. It's about 275 points to do all of that, but now your opponent's Dreadnought is dead, and you still have a major melee threat jumping around with Movement 14, ready to ruin someone else's day.
@@Hearesy the other, frankly hilarious, option that Raven Guard have are the Mor Deythan. You can only pull this off once per game, but it's really funny. So, Mor Deythan have a fun special rule that gives them Rending 4+ on any of their shooting attacks. You can kill a single Dreadnought with 6 Mor Deythan with Combi-Vokite. It comes out to 205 Points, which is about equivalent to a tooled up Dreadnought. Now, the Mor Deythan can get within range with those guns on Turn 1 because they have Infiltrate and Scout. I don't usually do this because I use Mor Deythan for tank hunting, but if your opponent doesn't have tanks, 4 Combi-Melta and 2 Melta guns will do in a pinch.
Ooh I had those guys stats totally wrong! Teach me to post late at night.
Anyway, theyre a good example of a good unit, but the point still stands: now imagine you’re rend 6; youd need 54 WS5 lightning claw attacks, or 81 WS4, to do the same.
Theres just not a lot of units that can get the volume needed with rend melee weapons.
What do you guys think about Destroyers as an effective unit against Dreadnoughts? Seems like the minus to toughness could be something
They aren't. You'd need an s12 weapon to instant death them, which is the only thing worth bothering with destroyers for
@@eater_of_garbage_ Instan Death work diferent on Dreads, I think only d3 damage
@@aaikevaz340 Yeah, still an effective weapon on them, and the only thing the minus to toughness matters for
Proteus land speeder squadron with grav guns. Nuff said
How about veteran squads with full melta? makes the most sense at 10-man. Hitting on 4s, armorbane s8 and d3 wounds per failed 5++.
Not the cheapest, but tooled up could also deal with other things?
Slap on a libby biomancy buff and they're not even getting ID'd anymore!
Armourbane does nothing to dreads and it isnt d3 damage. Also they hit on 3s. I’d recommend rereading how that works I think!
Armor bane rerolls wound rolls vs Dreads.
Ah you mean melta bombs right? Maybe.. feel likes a hail Mary though. And Veterans aren't cheap.
Ah I didnt realise you meant meltabombs. Yeh in that case they would probably do the job, as I mentioned in the video, but its a very expensive unit for the job.
Haven't dreadnoughts lost the vehicle prefix so aren't as bothered by haywire?
Haywire states dreadnought in its own rules so still gets them!
If I could ask for your advice, how do you deal with terminators?? They just seem like absolute tanks and I have no clue on how to deal with them
You need volume of attacks and AP2 which is hard to find outside of melee, so melee is generally best. Failing that, meltaguns and lascannons work, as do plasma or phosphex.
Remember each terminator is generally 40-50 points so even killing one at a timr chipping away at them with bolters can be much more valuable than it seems!
@@Hearesy wow thank you for the detailed reply I really appreciate it, I’m playing iron warriors and the leviathan siege dreadnought looks so fitting thematically that that might be my pick with this.
Iron Hands Moritat with grav pistols.
Just played a game with 5 world eater dreads... Absolutely brutal
Brilliant!
Don't forget that pretty much every power armour unit has Krak grenades, which are s6 ap3 and automatically hit dreads and automata. Obviously better against automata which so far don't seem like they get 2+ saves but still worth remembering, especially for Night Lords!
Subscribed ! :)
Surprised you didn't mention most basic marines have krak grenades, its only one attack but it auto hits and wounds better than their other weps.
Ita because 5+ to wound and a 2+ save isnt an effective way to hurt dreads!
@@Hearesy well if you had 15 tac marines bundle into one remembering they can use krak will be a lot more effective than their normal attacks! Most people will forget they can do this.
@@latro666 Only one can make an attack with a krak grenade. The krak is actually a debuff bc it means you can't fall back as a result of Our Weapons Are Useless.
The best way to kill 2 dreadnoughts is to charge yours into your opponents.
any tips for raven guard players?
Anything with magic lightning claws and decent attacks/ws!
T'au rail guns!!!
who?!?
you know... the T'au. battle armor and big guns, lots of guns!
oh... the T'au. you mean, the primitive spear chucking hunter-gather xenos!
we'll revisit that thought in about 10,000 years!
I have to say that I really enjoy the fact that not you're approaching with any emotional bias as well as not focusing on "getting the most out of...." .
I also really appreciate that you are emphasizing on how people should self regulate when it comes to going overboard. It doesn't seem like YT content creators are really emphasizing that very much.
Thanks! Ive seen plenty of negative comments about me talking about math/tactics, but I think one of the reasons its important to understand the relative power levels of stuff is so that people *can* self regulate effectively… and so the “oh, my army is a narrative fury of the ancients list” crowd have no excuse :)
Iron Warriors Wrack and Ruin makes them way easier to wound. S10 lascannons wound them very easily
I'm gonna be trying out a recon team with melta bombs for dreadnought and tank killing
It will work on the tank, but the melta bomb will just do D3 wounds to the dreadnought because of its automatic shielding. You are also striking at I1 with the bomb, so you might lose a few dudes. But, I think a whole squad all laying down bombs should take one out.
I love Dreadnoughts
Great vid
Thanks!
Plasma and melta support
Interemptors make short work of dreads. Breaching is brutal
No they aren't, the template means they only get up to 5-10 hits on the dreadnought, esp compared to hunter of beasts cenobium
So Alpha Leagion tips?
I feel bad in this edition because I own 8 contemptors...
Gal Vorbak just don't want to see an Osiron dreadnought.
Theyre supposed to be mates…
Dang, I hope the rules don't get "balanced" like 40k got "balanced" 😬
I like how Raven Guard didn't get a strategy for dealing with dreadnoughts. Poor boys in black have to have the worst rules out there.
They dont, theyre amazing at it: you just charge them with your magic lightning claws! RG are one of the best legions all round!
@@Hearesy - Magic lightning claws? You mean the ones where I need to buy the normal ones first, and then pay more points on top of that to upgrade to 1 more pip of rending? Those ones?
The ones that give rending, when RG already have rending in their Falcons trait AND in their only non-ally RoW? So there are 3 instances of rending, all running simultaneously, that do not stack? Those lightning claws?
I see RG as one of the worst legions right now. Recon teams are a "classic RG" unit, but they have Infiltrate given twice due to being Talons. Mor Deythan lost stealth/cameleoline, etc. I see them only strong if you want to play a whole list of light infantry.
Maybe it is a problem of "grass is greener...", heh - but I haven't given up on them yet!
I'm not running any Dreads in my main list. #maverick
Knowing the difference between a competitive list and one more conventionally "Heresy" is an important thing I didn't know about. It's difficult since everyone in my local is brand new. So, 40k min/max-ing is all we know and it's like instictual at this point. Spamming is an easy enough rule of thumb, but we haven't gotten any games in since everyone only had the starter box. Now that people have had time to buy from forgeworld and new plastic kits have come out I know at least a few people are likely working on skew lists. I was building one myself actually. This video made me stop and re-evaluate because I love dreadnoughts and tanks too much. We all got into Heresy because we were tired of things like this in 40k, but ironically thats how we're listbuilding because it's all we know. the vicious cycle never ends.
Great takeaway Kyle! Getting the balance is hard but I think worth it, and actually pretty rewarding. Im working on a unit of 5 melee veterans with power weapons for iron hands - getting to run stuff you love because you love it is awesome!
And ultimately, if you KNOW competitive, you’re in a great position to know how to NOT do it.
I don't see how it is different from 40k, exactly the same play with people who want to have fun, not destroy their opponent, buy, paint and play with models which you like, not what is hot meta now (which always was stupid, even more stupid now in 40k, when you get regular balance update every quarter of even more often)
Don't feel comfortable playing with a screwed list? reject play with this person, or discuss how to mitigate this
@@gi1dor So even though I was never a meta-chaser (I'm not rich enough lol), I still built my admech and black templar lists to perform as well as possible and the expectation was that my opponent would do the same. In Heresy, a lot of the fun comes from recreating something in the narrative. The time and place matters in Heresy games where they don't in 40k - I don't think I've ever talked to my opponent about which planet our game is taking place in 40k.
I could take an all-dreadnought army, but it's not fun twice as much as it would be in 40k. 1) spamming isn't fun 2) it breaks the narrative experience because nowhere would a legion send 9 dreadnoughts without any space marines to a battle. I could give all of my imperial fists nemesis bolt rifles (snipers) to maxemize their +1 hit with bolt weapons legion trait, and this would be the sensible thing to do in 40k, but it wouldn't be fun in Heresy because the Imperial Fists never fight like that and they call other legions who do fight like that cowards. I could also put a librarian in my Imperial Fists army, but unless it's a battle during the siege of terra it doesn't makes sense because every psyker is still locked in Dorn's basement until the final battle. So that's a little bit of how it's different.
There are also a lot fewer Heresy players than 40k. So, rejecting a game with someone (which I have and still do in 40k) might mean there's no one else to play against that day. So since it's a smaller player pool everyone has to work a bit more to make it a real community.
ρяσмσѕм
Get lucky
I heard meltabombs do nasty things to dreadnoughts.