@@DirtyMardinumber one issue I have with this edition. Abaddon is the warlord for my army and the fact that he out of every character dosen’t have EW is the most retarded thing ever
I actually think it's kind of cool that most of the other primarchs have really bespoke or esoteric weapons and Dorn's just like "Meh, if a bolter and chainsword is good enough for a sergeant then it's good enough for me." Even Guilliman has a combi bolter and powerfist to go with his sword, but Dorn just has the most basic space marine weapons imaginable.
Fits his personality: "What, wasn't bolter and chainsword enough for you guys?" and ironically as Alpharius points out, he's literally dripped in gold wielding similar arms to The Emperor
So do they try to base the Primarchs rules off established lore? If so then Dorn in Melee is where he should be. He has a win/kill versus Alpharius and regardless of how the reader spins it, he was kicking Fulgrims butt who is often considered a great duelist. I think Dorn really becomes a victim of the memes in which people look at him. I understand if people don’t like him, to each their own. But he has a confirmed Primarch kill, and a powerful showing against another. His cold resolve/Anger in a fight is definitely a strength. I think the rules seem fair to represent that. High mid tier is where he should be. Now as a Dark Angel/Blood Angel fan and player, I would not mind a small buff to the Lion 😂
Dorn beating Fulgrim is because the plot desired it, not due to good writing. The problem is, Primarchs cannot be good at everything, their nature is to excel in a key area, unless they are the Lion. Dorn like his tabletop rules can just do it all, and that's because the company insists on sucking him off ever since John French wrote Crimson Fist.
@@TheOuterCircle I definitely and whole heartedly disagree with you. You definitely have a bias. That’s cool, but you can’t claim “it’s plot armor” just because you don’t like the story. And Dorn being more well rounded and jack of all trades makes absolute sense for the Emperor to choose him as the praetor and not Lion or Sanguinius etc. The only reason I see the Emperor choosing Dorn instead of the Lion is because of the Lions temperament. Dorns abilities combined with his temperament made him the perfect choice for the roll he played. Also again I stand by my assessment that you like many others simply are holding onto old bias on a Primarch that really didn’t get fluffed out well till the last several years and because you don’t like or agree with how he has been written it is very clear that you have come to a bias. It’s not like he is getting the Matt Ward treatment. Ultimately his depth as a character is missed by a lot of people. It was written a while ago that one of the reasons he wasn’t chosen to be the war master was mainly his personality. That means he was obviously a top tier primarch on par with the Lion, Horus and Sanguinius in all other categories to even be considered. I wish The Lion would get more stories to develop him a bit more and maybe we will get that of he returns in 40K. Again by far not a Dorn fanboy, but I definitely think your objectivity isn’t a little skewed against them solely because of personal indifference to them for whatever reason and that’s fine, I have charachters I hate in this lore too but own it. I hate Horus and Lorgar and think their stories are seriously lacking. I think Perturabos book turned him into a whinny petulant child and I think Vulcans “morality” as a trans human killing machine is a joke. I know some of that is just my lack of interest in them as characters not just writing. But I own it.
@@TheOuterCircle Urgh. There's too much salt on this comment. Can I get a new one? Seriously though; Dorn is an absolute badass and represents the stoicism mindset and the ability to see life through that unique perspective. You dont have to agree, but you are by far, the most toxic hater I've seen on youtube towards ANY Horus Heresy rules or Lore. Chill out dude.
@@Thillidan No, i think its you who cannot take off fanboyism blinkers and think for a moment. For example, my favorite primarch is Corax and he is kinda decent melee fighter in lore, yet i understand that he is still not as good as (in example) Fulgrim or such who are pure duelists / melee experts. Even in the lore Dorn was never built up as some melee expert equal to Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Macca is 100% correct when he is saying that Dorn won simply because plot needed that to happen. There is nothing toxic about that, its a simple fact, but blind fanboys do not like criticism.
@@The_Blood_Wraith Yet, even in the lore Dorn was never built up as some melee expert equal to Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Macca is 100% correct when he is saying that Dorn won simply because plot needed that to happen. There is nothing toxic about that, its a simple fact.
@@TheOuterCircle Then call plot Armor on every Primarch. Dorn is a well written primarch and MOST of his detractors are people who refuse to let go of their own old meme bias then realize a dangerous warrior is a stoic and controlled one. 20 years in the Infantry showed me that when dealing with fellow soldiers. Two combat tours, the quite stoic ones were the ones who were the most deadly and dangerous when the crap hit the fan. I said on another forum of yours. I think you have a noticeable Anti-Dorn and Imperial Fist bias based on a fair amount of your side comments whenever you discuss them. I looked for the same with my Dark Angels and don’t see it. I think you might think your just being critical but it does come across as a bias at times. Your videos and your opinion, just a bit of observation criticism.
@@The_Blood_Wraith that's your opinion on how I think of them. I have collected them in the past, so I don't actively dislike them. But Dorn is not well written. What has happened is he and the Imperial Fists as a whole suffer from Main Character syndrome, and the bad writing, predominantly, stems from making their opposition incompetent in order to play up how competent the Fists are. Pollux is outmaneuvering Perturabo in void warfare, Dorn just straight up murder hobos Alpharius, Sigismund barely breaks a sweat killing EVERYTHING which is quite the step up from him merely being the best dualist of the astartes.
@@TheOuterCircle I do see what your saying. I do think and agree the Pollux thing was over done, it should have been more of a dumb luck thing and Not outmaneuvering a primarch. I don’t agree on Dorn and Alpharius. I think it plays into Dorn, his rage is actually very deep, and it is mostly his will being used to cool his temperament that affects his outward persona and personality making him blunt. I knew several people like that in my time in the Army so I see it as a very really depiction of when he does let his rage go he would do exactly what he did. And Dorns loyalty to the Emperor is without question hence why the emperor chose him. So what he did to Alpharius makes sense to me. Now for Sigismund, I love Sigismund as a charachter so with the bias established, they did make his victories seem WAY too easy. I do think he should have won them all but his duel with Kharn should have been closer and should have had a momment like his one with Abbadon nearly 1000 years later. Him attacking Fulgrim was a bit much too, so I definitely can see that. But there will always be a poster boy Army, and for the Seige of Terra portion of the Heresy it is the fists. I only brought up my opinion on you possibly having a bias, because you have made a lot of side comments recently that gave that impression. I love your work and your videos. I personally try to stay as objective as possible with this fictional world that when it comes to lore I am just a spectator. Since fan fics don’t count🤣. I actually love how they have fluffed out Dorn himself. Pollux, Sigismund and even Rann aside. I think the Praetor should be more than just a “wall builder” he should be a feared and fearsome warrior and general. So them posterboying him a bit doesn’t bother me. Hell like I said I play Dark Angels and Blood Angels, so no denying Sanquinus is op in lore and I wish Lion wasn’t so arrogant at times.
I think the point is that Dorn is too good at too many things. Like with the Fulgrim example. If Dorn is supposed to be a well rounded strategist and castellan and Fulgrim is supposed to be someone who values martial pride and dueling why is he getting thrashed on his home turf? If Dorn beats Fulgrim at the one thing he's supposed to excel at where does that leave Fulgrim as a character. Compare this to say Perturabo Vs Angron where Perty didn't wade directly into melee combat with the red angel to beat him. He played to his strengths as a primarch by planning out the battle and suppressing the World Eaters and their primarch while pounding them with heavy artillery. Only when Angron was severely weakened did he move in to fight him and it was still a difficult battle. Now I'm not saying Dorn can't be good in melee but he shouldn't be beating other primarchs who's whole field of expertise is melee combat or it should at least be a lot steeper of a challenge.
I hope they give Corswain a novella like they did Sigismund, if you haven't read it yet, it's peak Sigismund. Out of interest what do you think about Corswain's new model?
Horus will absolutely murderfuck Corax in two turns lol. On average Horus causes like 4 to 5 wounds in first turn of combat thanks to brutal 2. Someone like Angron can destroy primarchs in a duell, he has 15 attacks on the charge when outnumbered in turn 5. Ferrus... well, brutal 3. Russ is also insanely fast at killing primarchs. The only primarchs that are somewhat resistant to other primarchs are the ones with a 3++ save like Horus or Ferrus, since they won't let many wounds go through.
@@TheOuterCircle its just the issue of trying to show that he is a better fighter that sig but sig is basically primarch level. if we could dorn should be like a 7.5 or somthin
@@nukethenatelore why if you are representing Lore, would a primarch with a Primarch kill be that low. I think for Dorn 8 is right on point. Not the strongest but FAR from the weakest.
@@The_Blood_Wraith I'd still put him on the lower end. He wasn't as Frontline fighty as many of the other primarchs. Like alph, gman, and logar he preferred strategy over Frontline charges
@@nukethenatelore I don't think we really know enough about him before becoming Praetorian to say. His latest Primarch book does have him fighting on the frontline, and he did personally board Garro's ship in Flight of the Eisenstein.
And even then, Corax honestly did pretty poorly. It would be like a SEAL or Combat Controller going up against a priest with no martial training and not managing to kill him.
My imperial fists are a beaten broken a bruised company on its way back from the battle of phall. These aren't heroes or mary sues, these are the guys who are taking mass casualties for the legion and have very little fame. Its essentially a rear guard detachment made up of whats left of other broken companies. Like an ad hoc company from late ww2 germany. Thus they have very limited and diminished units. Limited heavy support. Traditional line company setup. i have is a couple support squads, one with missiles and one with Hbolters. 5 men each. I have no breachers, only tacticals. I have one dreadnaught with fist and twin autocannon. I have a kratos with battlecannon and Hb setup. The idea with this army: just hold on and have fun. I dont intend too win my games, i intend to play out a narrative. Too each his own, but i love the fists for who they are, not the rules. Id actually prefer too be the under dog ( if you cant tell lol) 😂 Cheers.
I got to say, you can just tell us you don't want to put more effort into editing lmao, 90% of characters do actually have models, the rest got deleted, and Auspex Tactics is a far bigger youtube channel which literally does nothing but put rules into a slide show and talk about them, copyright is not the problem. And I mean its fair, its your videos you don't need to put more work in then you feel is needed, but you don't need to drag us along like GW would
Can you please point me to where I may find Kaedus Nex, Alverax Maun, Nomus Rhy'Tan, Telemechrus, Shadrak Medusan, Aster Crone, Holguin, Farith Redloss, etc etc. That's just some of the Loyalists off the top of my head. As for Auspex Tactics, good for them, but I've had enough frivolous copyright claims thanks and I'm not so certain I can cover the rules in the book verbatim AND also deliver enough commentary to legally claim it's transformative, unless I go off on a rant or something, which is not what I want.
Lucius not getting eternal warrior is absolutely peak Lucius
Raven Guard you've never heard of: chuckles in background.
Meanwhile Sigismund the apparently eternal got bisected in the end by Abaddon, who also doesn’t have eternal warrior either.
@@DirtyMardi might make him worth his insane pts cost
@@DirtyMardinumber one issue I have with this edition. Abaddon is the warlord for my army and the fact that he out of every character dosen’t have EW is the most retarded thing ever
Emperor: Are ya winning son?
Rogal: This edition, yes.
Waited several weeks for this and you drop 3 vids on us. Worth.
3 more are uploaded already. Dropping tomorrow.
@@TheOuterCircle Saw them already. Damn...Raven Guard and Salamanders got shafted.
I actually think it's kind of cool that most of the other primarchs have really bespoke or esoteric weapons and Dorn's just like "Meh, if a bolter and chainsword is good enough for a sergeant then it's good enough for me."
Even Guilliman has a combi bolter and powerfist to go with his sword, but Dorn just has the most basic space marine weapons imaginable.
Yeah I like how in the lore it refers to him having far more powerful weapons at his disposal but he prefers Storms-teeth😂.
Dorn is a sentimental guy; he also keeps his adoptive grandfather's robe.
Fits his personality: "What, wasn't bolter and chainsword enough for you guys?" and ironically as Alpharius points out, he's literally dripped in gold wielding similar arms to The Emperor
So do they try to base the Primarchs rules off established lore? If so then Dorn in Melee is where he should be. He has a win/kill versus Alpharius and regardless of how the reader spins it, he was kicking Fulgrims butt who is often considered a great duelist. I think Dorn really becomes a victim of the memes in which people look at him. I understand if people don’t like him, to each their own. But he has a confirmed Primarch kill, and a powerful showing against another. His cold resolve/Anger in a fight is definitely a strength. I think the rules seem fair to represent that. High mid tier is where he should be. Now as a Dark Angel/Blood Angel fan and player, I would not mind a small buff to the Lion 😂
Dorn beating Fulgrim is because the plot desired it, not due to good writing. The problem is, Primarchs cannot be good at everything, their nature is to excel in a key area, unless they are the Lion. Dorn like his tabletop rules can just do it all, and that's because the company insists on sucking him off ever since John French wrote Crimson Fist.
@@TheOuterCircle I definitely and whole heartedly disagree with you. You definitely have a bias. That’s cool, but you can’t claim “it’s plot armor” just because you don’t like the story. And Dorn being more well rounded and jack of all trades makes absolute sense for the Emperor to choose him as the praetor and not Lion or Sanguinius etc. The only reason I see the Emperor choosing Dorn instead of the Lion is because of the Lions temperament. Dorns abilities combined with his temperament made him the perfect choice for the roll he played. Also again I stand by my assessment that you like many others simply are holding onto old bias on a Primarch that really didn’t get fluffed out well till the last several years and because you don’t like or agree with how he has been written it is very clear that you have come to a bias. It’s not like he is getting the Matt Ward treatment. Ultimately his depth as a character is missed by a lot of people. It was written a while ago that one of the reasons he wasn’t chosen to be the war master was mainly his personality. That means he was obviously a top tier primarch on par with the Lion, Horus and Sanguinius in all other categories to even be considered. I wish The Lion would get more stories to develop him a bit more and maybe we will get that of he returns in 40K. Again by far not a Dorn fanboy, but I definitely think your objectivity isn’t a little skewed against them solely because of personal indifference to them for whatever reason and that’s fine, I have charachters I hate in this lore too but own it. I hate Horus and Lorgar and think their stories are seriously lacking. I think Perturabos book turned him into a whinny petulant child and I think Vulcans “morality” as a trans human killing machine is a joke. I know some of that is just my lack of interest in them as characters not just writing. But I own it.
@@TheOuterCircle Urgh. There's too much salt on this comment. Can I get a new one?
Seriously though; Dorn is an absolute badass and represents the stoicism mindset and the ability to see life through that unique perspective.
You dont have to agree, but you are by far, the most toxic hater I've seen on youtube towards ANY Horus Heresy rules or Lore. Chill out dude.
@@Thillidan No, i think its you who cannot take off fanboyism blinkers and think for a moment. For example, my favorite primarch is Corax and he is kinda decent melee fighter in lore, yet i understand that he is still not as good as (in example) Fulgrim or such who are pure duelists / melee experts. Even in the lore Dorn was never built up as some melee expert equal to Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Macca is 100% correct when he is saying that Dorn won simply because plot needed that to happen. There is nothing toxic about that, its a simple fact, but blind fanboys do not like criticism.
@@The_Blood_Wraith Yet, even in the lore Dorn was never built up as some melee expert equal to Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Macca is 100% correct when he is saying that Dorn won simply because plot needed that to happen. There is nothing toxic about that, its a simple fact.
Considering how Rogal dorn defeated Fulgrim during the siege of Terra in a duel, I think a weapon WS of 8 is somewhat fitting.
I'm gonna call plot armour on that one.
@@TheOuterCircle Then call plot Armor on every Primarch. Dorn is a well written primarch and MOST of his detractors are people who refuse to let go of their own old meme bias then realize a dangerous warrior is a stoic and controlled one. 20 years in the Infantry showed me that when dealing with fellow soldiers. Two combat tours, the quite stoic ones were the ones who were the most deadly and dangerous when the crap hit the fan. I said on another forum of yours. I think you have a noticeable Anti-Dorn and Imperial Fist bias based on a fair amount of your side comments whenever you discuss them. I looked for the same with my Dark Angels and don’t see it. I think you might think your just being critical but it does come across as a bias at times. Your videos and your opinion, just a bit of observation criticism.
@@The_Blood_Wraith that's your opinion on how I think of them. I have collected them in the past, so I don't actively dislike them. But Dorn is not well written. What has happened is he and the Imperial Fists as a whole suffer from Main Character syndrome, and the bad writing, predominantly, stems from making their opposition incompetent in order to play up how competent the Fists are. Pollux is outmaneuvering Perturabo in void warfare, Dorn just straight up murder hobos Alpharius, Sigismund barely breaks a sweat killing EVERYTHING which is quite the step up from him merely being the best dualist of the astartes.
@@TheOuterCircle I do see what your saying. I do think and agree the Pollux thing was over done, it should have been more of a dumb luck thing and Not outmaneuvering a primarch. I don’t agree on Dorn and Alpharius. I think it plays into Dorn, his rage is actually very deep, and it is mostly his will being used to cool his temperament that affects his outward persona and personality making him blunt. I knew several people like that in my time in the Army so I see it as a very really depiction of when he does let his rage go he would do exactly what he did. And Dorns loyalty to the Emperor is without question hence why the emperor chose him. So what he did to Alpharius makes sense to me. Now for Sigismund, I love Sigismund as a charachter so with the bias established, they did make his victories seem WAY too easy. I do think he should have won them all but his duel with Kharn should have been closer and should have had a momment like his one with Abbadon nearly 1000 years later. Him attacking Fulgrim was a bit much too, so I definitely can see that. But there will always be a poster boy Army, and for the Seige of Terra portion of the Heresy it is the fists. I only brought up my opinion on you possibly having a bias, because you have made a lot of side comments recently that gave that impression. I love your work and your videos. I personally try to stay as objective as possible with this fictional world that when it comes to lore I am just a spectator. Since fan fics don’t count🤣. I actually love how they have fluffed out Dorn himself. Pollux, Sigismund and even Rann aside. I think the Praetor should be more than just a “wall builder” he should be a feared and fearsome warrior and general. So them posterboying him a bit doesn’t bother me. Hell like I said I play Dark Angels and Blood Angels, so no denying Sanquinus is op in lore and I wish Lion wasn’t so arrogant at times.
I think the point is that Dorn is too good at too many things. Like with the Fulgrim example. If Dorn is supposed to be a well rounded strategist and castellan and Fulgrim is supposed to be someone who values martial pride and dueling why is he getting thrashed on his home turf? If Dorn beats Fulgrim at the one thing he's supposed to excel at where does that leave Fulgrim as a character.
Compare this to say Perturabo Vs Angron where Perty didn't wade directly into melee combat with the red angel to beat him. He played to his strengths as a primarch by planning out the battle and suppressing the World Eaters and their primarch while pounding them with heavy artillery. Only when Angron was severely weakened did he move in to fight him and it was still a difficult battle.
Now I'm not saying Dorn can't be good in melee but he shouldn't be beating other primarchs who's whole field of expertise is melee combat or it should at least be a lot steeper of a challenge.
I hope they give Corswain a novella like they did Sigismund, if you haven't read it yet, it's peak Sigismund. Out of interest what do you think about Corswain's new model?
He is better than almost all the Dark Angels stuff.... which is like leaping over a bar placed on the ground.
@@TheOuterCircle hahaha quality
Horus will absolutely murderfuck Corax in two turns lol. On average Horus causes like 4 to 5 wounds in first turn of combat thanks to brutal 2. Someone like Angron can destroy primarchs in a duell, he has 15 attacks on the charge when outnumbered in turn 5. Ferrus... well, brutal 3. Russ is also insanely fast at killing primarchs. The only primarchs that are somewhat resistant to other primarchs are the ones with a 3++ save like Horus or Ferrus, since they won't let many wounds go through.
Dorn also had WS 8 in 1.0. I assume it was to give him a higher WS than Sigismund.
It also made no sense back then.
@@TheOuterCircle its just the issue of trying to show that he is a better fighter that sig but sig is basically primarch level. if we could dorn should be like a 7.5 or somthin
@@nukethenatelore why if you are representing Lore, would a primarch with a Primarch kill be that low. I think for Dorn 8 is right on point. Not the strongest but FAR from the weakest.
@@The_Blood_Wraith I'd still put him on the lower end. He wasn't as Frontline fighty as many of the other primarchs. Like alph, gman, and logar he preferred strategy over Frontline charges
@@nukethenatelore I don't think we really know enough about him before becoming Praetorian to say. His latest Primarch book does have him fighting on the frontline, and he did personally board Garro's ship in Flight of the Eisenstein.
I never got to play heresy 1.0 were the fists this good back then?
Not that crazy tbh
I say Corax being weak is pretty accurate to lore since he can only bully one Primarch, Lorgar.
And even then, Corax honestly did pretty poorly. It would be like a SEAL or Combat Controller going up against a priest with no martial training and not managing to kill him.
My imperial fists are a beaten broken a bruised company on its way back from the battle of phall. These aren't heroes or mary sues, these are the guys who are taking mass casualties for the legion and have very little fame.
Its essentially a rear guard detachment made up of whats left of other broken companies. Like an ad hoc company from late ww2 germany.
Thus they have very limited and diminished units.
Limited heavy support. Traditional line company setup.
i have is a couple support squads, one with missiles and one with Hbolters. 5 men each.
I have no breachers, only tacticals.
I have one dreadnaught with fist and twin autocannon.
I have a kratos with battlecannon and Hb setup.
The idea with this army: just hold on and have fun.
I dont intend too win my games, i intend to play out a narrative. Too each his own, but i love the fists for who they are, not the rules.
Id actually prefer too be the under dog ( if you cant tell lol) 😂
Cheers.
Hey macca, where abouts in Australia are you from?
Ballarat
@@TheOuterCircle ah yep, I asked in hopes you were closer to where I am as my I'm always looking for new people to play games with
@@TheOuterCircle one of my mates just moved down near bendigo, is there much of a 30k group in that area that he could get involved in? Cheers
I got to say, you can just tell us you don't want to put more effort into editing lmao, 90% of characters do actually have models, the rest got deleted, and Auspex Tactics is a far bigger youtube channel which literally does nothing but put rules into a slide show and talk about them, copyright is not the problem.
And I mean its fair, its your videos you don't need to put more work in then you feel is needed, but you don't need to drag us along like GW would
Can you please point me to where I may find Kaedus Nex, Alverax Maun, Nomus Rhy'Tan, Telemechrus, Shadrak Medusan, Aster Crone, Holguin, Farith Redloss, etc etc. That's just some of the Loyalists off the top of my head. As for Auspex Tactics, good for them, but I've had enough frivolous copyright claims thanks and I'm not so certain I can cover the rules in the book verbatim AND also deliver enough commentary to legally claim it's transformative, unless I go off on a rant or something, which is not what I want.
Sigismund has initiative of 5 not 4
What the hell did I say hahaha I'm an idiot
Dorn sucks! Imperial Fists are OP! All hail Magnus the Red!!!
You traitors made the bed you are laying in.
Magnus sucks this Ed