Evil Races Are Fine, Actually - A Frieren Beyond Journey's End Analysis
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Happy Holidays, everyone! This is the last video of the year, and I'm excited to talk about Frieren Beyond Journey's End. Not to mention dipping my toes into a vat of aci- I mean Twitter Discourse lol. Please enjoy!
A segment of this video was inspired by @TheBellman. Please check out his video: • Is Frieren Racist?
Chapters:
0:00 | Intro
1:51 | "Evil Races are bad, Mmkay?"
3:45 | Narrative Argument
9:33 | Moral Argument
16:48 | Conclusion
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Hey everyone. I would like to thank you all for the engagement in the comments, but I would like to make myself clear: I am aware that the demons in Frieren aren't actually "evil" in the traditional sense. They are highly intelligent wild animals. I merely describe them as evil in order for all sides of the discussion to know what i talking about. So to anyone who wishes to make that clear to me in the comments, read this message. Thank you.
No, you were correct. Their evil is simplistic and speaks to the nature of cruelty disguised as elegance.
@@MisteRRYouTuby You must love ignoring the needs of the "big, bad wolf", too... While eating your bacon.
I love when people try to sound clever without actually saying anything
@@DarkAdonisVyers …bacon is innocent.
@@MisteRRYouTuby You don't eat pork products, then?
People are sympathising with the demons because they have attractive anime faces
If they looked like the DOOM demons, this wouldn’t be a discussion
This is exactly right and increadibly ironic. That is literally the reason the demons are attractive in the first place. To lure in humans with shiney things.
then why is qual my favorite demon?
@@advakart4208 because you're a furry
@@advakart4208 He is my favorite as well. The guy spent his whole life perfecting a discipline, got sealed for 80 years, woke up just to find out his spell is no longer meta and promptly got annihilated by his own spell all in a span of less then an hour. Moral of the story, take your time to enjoy the little things, you may be the shit today, but in a few years the world would have moved on.
@@hang_kentang6709 But that's only because he was sealed away. Most people can't be blamed for stuff that happens when they're unconscious.
I want to know why the Twitter crowd thinks Frieren's pure evil demons are lazy writing. Their backstory as predators who evolved to hunt intelligent prey is creative and logical reasoning. Not everyone needs a sad backstory to harm others.
Because it's not creative or logical reasoning. It's just what fascists say about anyone they dislike who gets any kind of power in society so it's not creative, and it's not logical because evolution doesn't work that way.
Its Twittards... They got too spoiled with humanized villains... Also got too absorbed in politics that they made it their personality and only world view...
Can't wait when they get angry at Macht's arc and completely miss the point
@@jorntumrongwit9056some manga "readers" already did lol
@@ajca711 god dammit
Thinking Frieren is racist for hating the demons is like saying Ripley is racist for hating the xenomorphs.
People kinda forget that unlike in Attack on Titan, the conflict betwen humans and demons is not a race war but more akin to a predator vs prey conflict in nature
The difference is that demons are shown to be capable of language and social and moral reasoning, while xenomorphs are not.
Do you think a human sociopath deserves moral consideration? The demons in Frieren are functionally very strong, power-seeking, long-lived, sociopathic humans. If they desired, they would be fully capable of acting normally within a human society, but they don't desire to.
Whether or not you think the demons deserve moral consideration will come down to your baseline moral beliefs, but the idea that a race of thinking, feeling beings could be exterminated wholesale with no moral qualms rubs me the wrong way.
Until humans were able to fly, Demons kind of reigned supreme.
I love how demons in frieren actually succeeded irl. Just because they're sexy, people started defending them. Heck it was explained in the series that demons only mimic humans thats why when they try to act nice they always fail, yet people think this is an example of them being misunderstood.
Xenomorphs and cute demons deserve a chance to coexist you bigot
Not really. Xenomorphs are just animals and explicitly do not display any ability to communicate with humans.
The whole purpose of introducing the Demons as pure evil was to subvert the audience's expectations--nowadays, pure evil villains have become vogue, and "relatable/sympathetic" villains are the norm. By turning audience's expectations on their head--showing multiple humans being tricked by the demons via their empathy--the author flips the script and challenges the reader's/audience's preconceived biases. The message that empathy is not always the right choice is the real reason people are mad at the show.
exactly this. a lot of people nowadays, mostly the very young, don't want to hear about "good" things being used for "bad" purposes or vice versa. ironically, these will often be the same people who argue that morality is subjective.
The problem with this is that the message can only really be applied towards other humans in the real world, and empathy IS always the better choice here. Easy dehumanization of others for the sake of one's own geopolitical or economic advancement is pretty much the number one problem we face when it comes to actually solving global issues.
I love the show otherwise and they definitely avoided being cliché here but anything that puts out the message "some animals that look and act like people actually deserve no consideration as such" needs to be looked at very critically.
@@Riskofdisconnect I guarantee you there have been instances where a powerful group has exploited the empathy or general theory-of-mind of a less powerful group in order to annihilate it. The colonial Spanish were very fond of this, for example.
@@Eedden42 Yes of course, but you should be careful not to blame the victims here. The problem there wasn't the openness of native American groups but the colonialist desires of the European powers, which led to the dehumanization (in their eyes) of the native Americans and their subsequent treatment by the Europeans.
You could argue that if the native Americans were more hostile towards the Europeans they might have lasted longer, but plenty of native American groups were explicitly hostile towards the European settlers from the beginning, and they ended up overwhelmingly extinct or assimilated just like they rest.
To be clear though, I'm speaking from a U.S. perspective, where we are the most powerful player on the world stage. Concerns about the possible dangers of empathic thinking aren't really meaningful to us at all, and are useless and distracting from what good could be getting done through the use of our power.
@@Riskofdisconnect it doesn't matter who we blame, because they're all gone. all that matters now is through what avenue they were exploited so we can avoid it happening again in the future. empathy gets exploited, and at a certain point becomes indistinguishable from cowardice.
The fact people jumped in their defense despite it being stated in the anime they’re literally magical psychopaths goes to show just how powerful Sousou no Frieren’s demons are, they can break the 4th wall and manipulate humans from other dimensions :O
Tigers have advocates.
@@DarkAdonisVyers tiggers are cuddly as babies.
@@mr.p215 Did... did you misspell that on purpose?
@@mr.p215 tigger feom winnie the pooh
Me when twitter users lack nuance
Some demons actually do try to be better. The only problem with that is they have no moral compass or empathy and it goes sideways like when Mr Burns on the Simsons tried being good and ended up being worse. Like the demon girl trying to replace the daughter she ate with another, that she killed the mayor for so he wouldn't complain and there would be no reason for the parents not to accept the replacement. And when people freak out she says "I seem to have made a mistake somehow" but she can't for the life of her figure out what she did wrong. Macht's arc further explores this with him trying to understand humans and find a way to coexist and doing unspeakable things in the pursuit of that goal.
This is all absolutely true. And Im going to make a follow up video to expand upon all this. I just wanted to give people the basic understanding of the premise so as to understand just how untrue and false both moral and narrative arguments are and how much they both miss the point.
But with what you present here, this makes both arguments EVEN WORSE because they are missing the clear nuance in this plot point that clearly sets up the Macht arc.
They don't do it with the intent to get better they do it with the intent to survive, and as seen later on in the manga when a demon does try to understand humans truly it only leads to the entire city being destroyed and countless deaths
@@KaiserShounenI watched the demon arc right as the Hamas-Israel war erupted, and I have friends on both sides of the conflict. That's why I was personally uncomfortable seeing an entire race being irredeemably evil because that exact language is all too common in war.
HOWEVER. Frieren makes its demon evil in a very real, very human way - they're sociopaths. The way they behave is very true to actual sociopaths I've met and known. So it's not "hurr durr you went the boring route" or "hurr durr you're advocating racism," but more that the demons are a reflection of our own capacity for inhumanity.
And even then, the demon child genuinely had no idea that she did any wrong and while that does not excuse murder, it does show that there is a very real chance that a demon can unlearn their violent culture if they feel it benefits them more.
@@Serocco it cannot, as seen later in the manga no matter when a demon was raised from infancy yet still killed the entire human family, and even after doing so never understood how it was wrong to do.
It isn't boring for then all to be irredeemable, it's actually more interesting for them to be like this, gives more questions on theur existence and how they work as well as how such a being thinks.
Also while that is fair to not want to be portrayed it is the simple truth of that species besides they are not a race they are simply a species of carnivores that evolved to eat us.
There is no humanity in them, despite looking so much like us and being so intelligent they are the opposite of humanity and prepresent an interesting question
@@mr.brazilian5167I wouldn't say there is no humanity in the demons completely. They clearly have a society, a culture or cultures, beliefs, and even emotions and feelings. It seems that demons process the information they recieve differently. Where as with the girl that is killed in one of the episodes, the demon believes that replacing the girl with another will solve the issue because the issue is seemingly a simple one to solve.
This is by no means a defense for the actions the demon did in that episode, but it clearly is a complicated issue within the story and world of the show, and the show is able to acknowledge that in a way. Some demons do want to coexist with humans, and some humans want to coexist with demons. Frieren believes all demons are evil, and I'm sure some demons in the canon believe that all humans should die, or are evil.
The fact that the whole premise of demons is that they will use any means necessary to seem innocent and relatable to make humans trust them despite viewing humans as prey, and then people in real life watch the anime and fall for the exact same trap of thinking that demons are like humans, despite having it SPELLED OUT FOR THEM that they are irredeemable monsters... I guess the demons were really onto something with that strategy.
Well, maybe most people here have the problem of thinking that human-killing is a dealbreaker for human coexistence. For example, most assassins would love to learn all the best human-slaying magic there is. "Tried a new spell. Little something I've been working on in my spare time. Came _this_ close to turning that priest inside out. Damned messy."
That’s why I like it so much. It’s realistic.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 Except it's unrealistic for all the humans to think that "natural ability to kill" is a deal _breaker_ I see that, oftentimes, it should be a deal _maker_ Ishura is more realistic because as soon as the True Demon King died, all the human nations begin plotting against each other. Some hire "man-eating monsters", such as wyverns.
The issue is that's how the same mental tactic has been applied to enemies during wars to vilify them and justify genocide. And now similarly with China or during pandemic. The outbreak wasn't China's will, plus the softwares everyone uses around the world from the US has their own ways to collect data, but when China does the same, we vilify them without second thought. But when we do pedophile behaviour in the US such as grooming kids to make profit, we're not evil, we just messed up.
I think Frieren kind of adress an interesting topic tho. In the context of Frieren, the demons are simply emotionless predators who have no ability of empathy/feelings, but some in real life attributes those traits to people with east asian ancestry due to US stereotype towards asian as model minority and calculating, but as an asian, I suck at math.
Sadly I do know an indian guy irl who used to be my friend and he harboured those thoughts since here in Canada or even in most english speaking countries, people usually don't refer indians as asian and he blames it on east/south east asians for being "racist and evil despite being good looking"(I think he said last part due to fetish) without knowing/doing research that it's actually just the common linguistic usage in most english country that uses the phenotypical meaning of asian, not the geographical which includes russians, arabs, jews, south asians and then east and south east asians.
@@DarkAdonisVyersthe problem isn’t human killing. It’s the fact their entire existence is predicated on hunting humans. Remember the same crowd that defends the demons, is usually the same one shitting on human hunters who hunt animals. Their morals directly conflict with eachother you can’t say “well this race loves to hunt humans for sport, yet they can co-exist. Yet humans and animals can’t co-exist because humans kill animals.
Their problem is their Nihilists, they want humanity to be wrong and they don’t care if they need to twist morals to do it. Its not a “right vs left” issue or a “woke vs non woke issue” it’s an empathy issue, they empathize with everyone but themselves and shouldn’t be mocked for it or even hated, but you don’t ignore a mental health issue either.
It's a pretty refreshing and interesting take with Demons essentially being an alien species that developed as predators of sapient prey species. It's basically a science fiction concept adapted to a fantasy story and its rife with possibilities. I understand such concepts can be a little overwhelming to some people though. Who prefer more basic ideas. So lets be respectful of people who enjoy simpler concepts.
Aliens have nothing to do with demons. And SiFy is not a concept giver for fantasy. The original genre is fantasy as it is a fictional setting. The niche is the "science" underpinning which makes fantasy to science fantasy. In that SiFy can as a sub genre can not be a concept giver to the whole genre it is part of!
What makes it so interesting is just how far demons are removed evolutionary from the humans in Frieren. I feel it's kinda like comparing how different we are to octopus in our world. We split apart from each other so damn long ago in the evolutionary tree of life and yet we still see how they gained immense intelligence in a completely different way.
Octopus might as well be aliens to us because of how different they are overall.
I like the return of classic evil demons in an ocean of misunderstood or oppressed demon species. I can enjoy a nicely-written demon sob story like in Demon Slayer but not harem trash story in most isekais. It's mind boggling how usually magically weak humans can oppress a species of creatures that can spit out thermonuclear energy blasts from their fingers. This made me more curious to see how these humans are able to do that than following some reincarnated Japanese guy trying to subvert the culture of his new world with his old world.
you mean lets tolerate people who enjoy simpler concepts. respect is not something that easily given.
So basically smol brains, I cannot give my respect just to anyone lmao
Demons in Frieren are basically what would happen if someone gave Tiger's the ability to speak and changed nothing else. They'd just use that ability to hunt and kill more efficiently because that's how Tiger's are.
No, this is not what will happen, you fucking idiot. Ability to exchange information between two sapient beings changes absolutely everything about how they perceive the world and interact.
I bet a talking tiger would be more capable than a failure embarrassment that you are.
Tigers literally the most docile of the big cats
Panthers and Cheetahs would make for a better allegory
@AzureGlow14 Cheetahs are not dangerous to humans though, especially adults. There is no cases of them killing a human, as far as I know
@@AzureGlow14 Cheetahs are too wimp
not even tigers, tigers care for their young.
Demons are more like spiders -- they lack any capacity to care about another living being.
Honestly, I always saw it as a subversion of fantasy anime. Where the demons are actual demons and not just isekai waifu demons.
Me too, it's a refreshingly new way of portraying them.
@@MysticLuka go back several decades, it isn't that new.
@@HenshinFanatic It is to me. Besides, with that kind of mindset, nothing is really "new"
Thats Not subverting thats going Back to the basics
@@laisphinto6372 when you leave the basics long enough going back to basics is subversion.
7:20 I think Frieren lost her empathy as a way to protect her sanity seeing as if she cared too much about the people around her knowing she's destined to outlive all of them by centuries, her grief might eventually destroy her.
Oh so kinda like when people disassociate themselves from painful memories and events as a sort of trauma response.
Flamme helped her with the idea, and really frieren doesn't really need any more reason the demon kinda killed everyone in her original village and she's the sole survivor of her village.
@@skydonkey9515 That makes sense, however that dissociation falls apart with each new group (including the current one).
Slight spoiler but frieren didnt really lose her empathy. She still feels bad about killing demons (with the exception of one that comes up later in the manga)
Frieren's demons are honestly one of my favourite portrayals of such because of how they're ultimately basically people who lack empathy, even for their own kind. How they act honestly makes perfect sense when considering that.
I also love how they see language as little more than a tool to manipulate humans and that they don't actually always understand what the words they're saying are supposed to mean, but rather that the only understand how the words affect humans, often making them less likely to hurt the demon in question. It actually reminded me a lot of current language models. They can use language very well and can sound very convincing, but their entire world model is of the language itself with no context for what the language is supposed to represent, or even that there even _is_ a context that it's supposed to represent beyond the raw text itself. It never says what is truthful, but instead only ever says what it thinks it's supposed to say given the existing conversation.
You don't even know what the word empathy means.
That is actually a perfect analogy. Demons here understand language the same way that Chat GPT does.
@@Zarastro54 Chat GPT does not understand language and it's not sapient. Which would mean demons are not sapient beings and are not self-aware, therefore incapable to act and move.
It's a shit writing.
@@johnjack3578 That’s what I mean. Demons, similar to ChatGPT, use language not necessarily because they know the meanings of each word, but because they know that certain words and phrases elicit a response from humans. Of course it’s not a perfect analogy, but the core principle of them not truly understanding the words they use is there.
@@Zarastro54 This is an absolute bullshit writing. Demons are capable of complex sentences and dialogue, if they are not understanding what they are doing, this makes them about as intelligent as home appliance. They will not be able to walk or eat at all. This is not how living beings function.
I think you forgot a very important 3rd argument:
Evil races are bad because i want the demon girl and the elf girl to go on a date.
... I see nothing wrong with this statement.
The most important argument
Lol
Then have the elf girl be evil too, duh
there's no reason a person can't date evil people
People forget that it's a fantasy world, and a predator species taking the guise of something human is fun to have in the world as an antagonistic force. It's not racism if they're ACTUALLY evil monsters, they're just monsters. The horror is that they look and act like humans, but intrinsically aren't.
I think it's more racist to compare different cultures of humans in reality to the fictional demons that were NOT written as an allegory and were written simply as monsters. This is something that you go over in the video, but it still baffles me. They're so eager to find racism that they focus on something that ISN'T racism.
I love fantasy racism. Elves hating Dwarfs and Dwarfs hating Elves for the most pitiful reasons is my favourite type of fantasy.
Don't think the Dwarf vs Elf racism is the same thing as the Demon racism in the show. As you said one is about petty squables leading to conflict, neither the dwarfs or elves are presented as being right when racist. The demons are straight up undeniably evil meaning the narrative justify being racist against them. I am personally fine with any topic being told in literature but the second is certainly more difficult to do narratively.
Honestly? Racism NEEDS to be in media, but it should be mocked. Settings where Elves and Dwarves hating each other for absurd reasons would be PERFECT for exploring racism and showing why it's stupid.
My ONE gripe with the demons, and I actually love them, is that I feel like the story didn't execute on just how much doubt Frieren had. Sure, there's a line when she's fighting Aura, but I kind of wish there was more internal struggle. Because I can tell the show isn't trying to say that the Demons are hurr durr evil, I can tell the show is trying to say something else, very tragic, about Frieren. She remembers threats that everyone forgets.
@@Ryanowningyou wouldn’t really call them evil. That’s adding morals. Frieren says it best. They’re essentially animals. It’s just hunting.
And none may ever forget the Imperium of Man having 0 tolerance to any xenos.
@@Ryanowning "Racism NEEDS to be in media, but it should be mocked." Might backfire man. Like the obvious racist bad guy Lord Gerathos being irnocially a fan favorite in Warcraft3. The way he acts is just so funny you cant help but smile.
"Settings where Elves and Dwarves hating each other for absurd reasons would be PERFECT for exploring racism and showing why it's stupid." Go ahead, explain to my why tribalism is stupid when it has come about by evolution do to the natural world selecting for it in populations to do it enabling them to outcompete other populations who altuisticly help everyone not just their own kin.
"My ONE gripe with the demons, and I actually love them, is that I feel like the story didn't execute on just how much doubt Frieren had." We dont hear her internal monologue but from what she says it is rather clear that shes sighing to have to end someone sentient, inteligent and half her age. If Aura would just understand that there is a better way than prepetual war Frieren could have a companion that wont leave her do to dieing of old age. But she does not understand and so Frieren sighs and says so I will have to...
"Sure, there's a line when she's fighting Aura, but I kind of wish there was more internal struggle." The first one which comes to my mind is - Aura, you seem happy... - but there are way more than one.
"Because I can tell the show isn't trying to say that the Demons are hurr durr evil, I can tell the show is trying to say something else, very tragic, about Frieren. She remembers threats that everyone forgets." Shes seen it all, this is why she doesnt protest to the vilage taking in the dreamon girl, shes no dout seen it before and watches like more thoughtful gamers watching more naive ones preordering games she knows will be broken on release.
The Demons are more interesting than people give them credit for, because there is a hint of redemption within them that is very, very subtly touched upon. In the fight with Aura, even Frieren was searching for an out to be merciful: "Aura.. it seems I must kill you here, after all." "You demons are monsters after all." Not even Frieren is immune to the propaganda that is another intelligent being talking to you. They talk with one another.
That demon child still haunts me - because she's a clear case positive that maybe the plight of demons *isn't* so clear cut. She didn't kill the chief's child, because that child truly, wholly embraced her.. and on some level, she understood that she committed a grave injustice against the people whose child she originally ate that she has to reconcile. She simply doesn't comprehend a way to forgive that crime, except by giving them a new child. And, obviously, the chief disagrees.. which is probably how they were killed.
As a race, demons have self-propelled themselves with a cycle of traumatizing violence all in the name of survival. Where humankind is collective, demons prioritize individualism above all else, as the only one you know you can truly trust is yourself.. *not even your own children.* They abandon them soon after birth, leaving them to learn that nature is cruel and uncaring; until humans begin to intercede at that point and teach them the potency of collectivism and family, it's likely nothing will change.
That demon child was also probably older than many of the people in that village, too. They live as long as elves. She isn't going to change her outlook on life because this one family was nice to her for a while.
It will be really interesting to see what people will have to say about how the demons of Frieren work once we see Macht's arc (in a future season 2) to completion. The author really struck gold with that character. It was such a unique story and there was nothing cliché about it in any way. The conclusion also feels realistic and not cheap while still not being too convenient or "tidy".
There is no hint of something in any form of redemption as will be seen later in the manga this was tried and it led to an entire city being destroyed.
@@mr.brazilian5167
Which is what makes the demons and how they are handled actually not cliché imo. Like we explore the idea of the redemption but simply realize that even if individuals may exist in demonkind that may seek peace it simply goes against their nature to be able to actually accomplish it. Macht was so damn interesting.
I like the fact they made demon are always in a state of evolution But Sad reality is when a demon develop human like emotions and morality they will immediately have a mental break and it doesn’t help they kill possibly hundreds or thousands of innocence to reach that point of evolutionarily development?
All you said is credible, but you missed one point here. Demon is not a race. It is a species.
I'd argue the problem with the second argument stems from a fundamental confusion about what demons are in Frieren, and a failure to recognize that they are actually also just another nuanced feature of the story that fits perfectly with the other nuances the show has to offer.
The demons in Frieren are not evil. This is a mischaracterization of what they are, how they function and shows a lack of appreciation of moral philosophy.
Calling the demons evil is like calling flesh-eating bacteria or parasitic worms evil. The demons are highly evolved anti-social predators and the question of whether humankind, an animal that has evolved to survive through pro-social behavioral strategies could co-exist with such an animal(and if so, how) is an extremely interesting and deep scientific/philosophical question.
To categorize the demons as "evil" is the crux of the issue here, not the arguments that follow from accepting that false premise.
To put this into perspective:
There's an insect on our planet known as the Emerald Wasp. Its reproduction is predicated on paralyzing cockroaches and planting their eggs inside them. The eggs then hatch and the hatchling then eats the host alive from the inside before bursting out of its back like the Xenomorph from Alien.
Now, suppose the Emerald Wasp evolved intelligence and the ability to speak. Suppose its reproductive cycle was predicated on planting its eggs in humans. Is it an evil animal?
No. That's absurd. It's just an animal, albeit an intelligent one, whose nature is incompatible with the well-being and harmonious coexistence with humans.
This is what demons represent in Frieren and the type of scenario Frieren's story is asking people to consider. Not only is this a legitimate idea to ask people to ponder, it is also a vastly more nuanced and deep piece of world-building than some naive and silly notion that all intelligent life in the universe will evolve to converge on the same pro-social values as humans do and operate on them in a way recognizable to us. In fact, believing in this latter notion is so scientifically and philosophically illiterate it requires not having grappled with almost any serious and contemporary literature on biology and ethics.
I'd actually agree that writing an evil animal/race in fiction is usually lazy and trite - usually because the concept of evil itself is lazy and trite. The issue here is that Frieren didn't do that, because nowhere is it argued that the demons are purely "evil". That judgement comes from the reader. The demons are just anti-social, sadistically predisposed predators. If you want to call that evil, fine, but then you'd likely have to conclude that sharks, scorpions and emerald wasps are evil too.
It's because too many people these "normie" fantasy viewers jerk off on the opportunity to be "holy warriors". Me? I prefer to _slay_ the paladins.
You say incompatible, I say "you don't know how *WEIRD* internetizens can be!" 😜 ,
There was once a hippie cult that infected themselves with guinea worms in an effort to preserve them before their extinction, _trust me talking wasps could find a few rubes!_
Emerald wasps are evil.
@@berserkerpride
lol. I'm not unsympathetic to people finding wasps, mosquitoes and spiders evil =P
I hear what ur saying but it aint that deep tho. Their actions are evil towards humans. Just like how school shooters actions are evil. How many humans do you have to kill before you become evil? Was hitler not evil? Hiter believed jews were incompatible with german society so does that make him not evil cause he claimed to be acting out of self preservation of the german people? You can do this shit all day dude. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Both arguments stem from the fact that there are those lacking discernment between reality and fantasy.
I can get how that can be the case for the moral argument. But why do you think this applies to the narrative argument?
@@KaiserShounen The need to remove the “evil race” because of lacking nuance in a fantasy story in order to become closer in line with reality. Narratively speaking you need a foil of SOME kind to give characters both agency and purpose.
To be honest, what I said better explains the latter argument than the former; I commented what I said in haste…the idea fresh in my mind.
Fair enough@@MisteRRYouTuby
Almost every time I've seen someone immediately dismissing media critique as the critic being "unable to discern reality from fantasy" they've been projecting and using that argument as a kneejerk defense of something they are deeply emotionally invested in (because of their lack of ability to discern reality from fantasy) being critiqued...
@@YumLemmingKebabs Sooo…The inability is a problem.
In a world where villains with “tragic” backstories and villains who “have a point” have been the norm for so long, getting a pure evil villain is a breath of fresh air.
Especially considering pure evil villains do exist in real world. I mean anyone who thinks "Hitler had a point" is 100% wrong
Not really pure evil if the entire species is physically incapable of being “good”
I was positively surprised at the direction the story took with the demons, and yeah I saw this whole fantasy racism bs coming from a mile away (and I'm still disappointed). I was expecting for the arc to conclude with Frieren being proven wrong and humans and demons being able to find an understanding cause that's the cliche thing to do. But instead the show subverted my expectations and I'm happy it did. Not every single aspect of a fictional story has to be an allegory for real life.
Your argument is to let the Mongol hoards in to the city and if you have a problem with that you are racist.
@@jmw1500 They don't exist because real world is not functioning according to an impaired imagination of an under developed manchild fancying himself a writer.
@@jmw1500 if they do exist then at least those twatter would be the first to go lol. That's a plus for me.
@@jmw1500 Our "leaders".
"Not every single aspect of a fictional story has to be an allegory for real life."
Say it louder for the back.
Sauron and the ring are evil, the end, that's not a bad thing, that's the point. It's the black and white backdrop of these settings that creates the contrast needed to explore the greyness of the main characters themselves.
Bad comparison lol
Neither Mairon/Sauron nor Melkor/Morgoth start out as evil.
They're quite literally fallen angels/gods.
Their evil and corruption are primarily a result of their own choices.
The Orcs are hinted at as originally being corrupted elves, victims in a sense.
Either bred that way by Morgoth, or turned savage through other means.
Tolkien even had some reservations about the whole idea of evil races or species.
There's a strong theme of 'evil cannot create, only corrupt' that runs through a lot of his work.
The idea of a species being created evil would be a bit weird for him.
Even the ancient 'nameless things' like Ungoliant, which are basically primordial evils, are more alien than evil, and are mentioned as being corrupted by Morgoth.
Nothing wrong with black and white, or whatever you want to call it, but this weird meme about Tolkien and older writers in general having simplistic morals is weird. It's not moral simplicity, just moral clarity.
Bad comparison lol
Neither Mairon/Sauron nor Melkor/Morgoth start out as evil, like the demons in this setting do.
They're quite literally fallen angels/gods.
Their evil and corruption are primarily a result of their own choices.
The Orcs are hinted at as originally being corrupted elves, victims in a sense.
Either bred that way by Morgoth, or turned savage through other means.
Tolkien even had some reservations about the whole idea of evil races or species.
There's a strong theme of 'evil cannot create, only corrupt' that runs through a lot of his work.
The idea of a species being created evil would be a bit weird for him.
Even the ancient 'nameless things' like Ungoliant, which are basically primordial evils, are more alien than evil, and are mentioned as being corrupted by Morgoth.
Nothing wrong with black and white, or whatever you want to call it, but this weird meme about Tolkien and older writers in general having simplistic morals is weird. It's not moral simplicity, just moral clarity.
And Saurons motives are still complex. As a demogod he was originally a servant of the gods and found the methods of Eru Iluvatar to be slow and inefficient, he in his perfectionism decided the only way to have a perfect world was by a very very hands on aproach and forcing everyone to act as they should. The armies of orks he raises and the evil he does in the books is just a means to an end, after he will atain world domination he will start making heaven on earth or so he says.
I'd also add that the fact that the demon race in Frieren is evil actually adds nuance, but just not where you'd expect it.
Indeed, given that the morality of the demons is not really a question in itself (even if it's actually more complicated than that in the manga), there are in exchange some questionings that are created for the heroes on this subject. This is particularly true for Frieren, who often questions her humanity when she faces demons. And in the course of discussions with them when she has to face them, she always ends up being reassured that she herself is not a monster when she makes radical decisions towards them.
That's where the nuance comes in. The existence of demons makes the heroine question her own humanity. And personally, I find that far more subtle than making demons nuanced, which is what all fantasy authors do these days.
I love the nuance that the Manga ads with the demon king. That he is desperately and sincerely trying to understand humanity and develop empathy because he wants humans and demons to be able to exist together, but simply just cannot understand and does horrible things in his efforts to understand. What a tragic yet horrific yet BRILLIANT way to add some depth to the demon mindset without making them stereotypically sympathetic.
@@jmw1500 And if they don't, what would we do? What COULD we do?
@@jmw1500 Sentient being are different.
To be fair, the demons in the series aren't inherently evil. I think Frieren said it best when she first encountered Lugner the blood demon, "You demons are simply incomprehensible wild beasts that mimic human speech." Lugner even admits it later on.
Yep, can’t apply morals or virtues to animals. I don’t think my cat is being malicious when it pukes on the carpet.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116Idk, it is a cat. They can be beyond petty sometimes.
@@tlkfanrwbyfan8716 lol they’re just doing what they want, they’re not doing it to spite you , even if it seems like it sometimes
Humans are animals.
Cats are mammals and have emotions just like other mammals. They sure as shit can be angry or scared. You don’t think they have the emotional capacity for spite?
Does it prevent it from being Shakespeare to have only evil demons? Tell me when you find a not evil demon in Shakespeare.
Exactly my point lmao
Hah true
I swear demons could have a diet consisting entirely of babies and they'd still say they can't all be evil.
Amon in devilman be like *NOM NOM NOM* 🍫🐗
Its because they cute and handsome.
"Evil" is intentional desire to hurt someone, especially when it can be avoided, but the person chooses to still hurt others. Predator killing its prey to survive isn't evil, just bad for the prey.
@@KateeAngel I mean sure, if it needed to hunt to survive which demons don't. Besides if a predator solely hunted humans and nothing else we would hunt them to extinction
They can’t be evil. They can only be animalistic
Funnily enough about the Goblin Slayer point, there were a few who tried to start shit about it. A few even went as far as calling the mangaka of GS "antisemitic" because of the way the goblins are designed. They also argued how the first episodes you-know-what scene was being overtly sexualized and shown in a fetishistic light, rather than the series just showcasing how horrible those creatures are and how easy a party can get wiped if they aren't careful.
Those scenes are overly fetisized. Its basically straight out of a hentai. Your first point and second point are pretty mismatched with trying to attribute them to the same people.
@@Gidonihah and that's a good thing, if all anime had material like that these freaks wouldn't try to get in to it at all. we need more gore and sex so twitter freaks and leftists stay away from anime
@@Gidonihah or the problem with modern audiences being unable to distinguish between sex and sexual assault. I only saw the scenes in Goblin Slayer as horrifying, and that's as a female victim of said crimes myself. If people are seeing that as "hot" or "sexy" then that sounds like there's something wrong with them individually than the story. And I read the light novels too, so it's whatever I guess. I see series like Redo of Healer actually making it into a fetish, and found it disgusting. GS has it's more gross fans but that's a FANDOM problem that every fanbase can easily gain and not something the series or creator is directly responsible for. Even PG rated media attracts creeps when they OBVIOUSLY aren't wanted in the space.
You people need to lay off of Goblin Slayer and stop repeating what everyone who's never seen it says. It has some graphic torture scenes so I wouldn't recommend it to people who KNOW they can't handle those topics, but let's call it what it is and stop spreading malicious lies on some fake moral high horse. It's a dark fantasy that is at the core about dealing with trauma and how it effects different people, and is actually very positive in showing respect to women as well as showing the importance of having support groups, but that seems to get lost on people who walk into a dark series acting like it's freaking sunshine and rainbows.
While it does have some parts that are fanservice, it sure as hell isn't in the assault scenes.
@@anklebiter2323 Gidonihah is correct, it _was_ fetishized, or, more accurately _inspired_ by the hentai in that genre. The author took a look at some hentai and thought, "Hey, there's a serious story that can be told about this."
And that's perfectly valid.
@@johnduquette7023 I respectfully disagree. Not once have I read or heard either Kumo Kagyu stating he was inspired by hentai for his work. D&D, Batman, and even the Punisher, sure. Yet, not once has he ever brought up hentai of any kind being a point of inspiration. But if you have some source for an interview (the name of the interviewer's channel or blog since links don't work) then you may have a point. But right now it seems you are putting words in his mouth without evidence, just a gross assumption.
Furthermore, even if you have a source, he still would be changing a common trope in hentai into something that is depicted as non-consenting and often with brutal violence that is, what else? TORTURE. Therby removing the claim of it being a "fetish" from the scene entirely by intention alone.
Goblins entire M.O. is being greedy and cruel and don't even care about each other, let alone other species. The scene is not meant to be seen as sexy, but to remind you these are irredeemable monsters that deserve what's coming to them. If people still see it as sexy, then some people will see it that way. But the fact remains the intention is to be horrifying and it succeeds on that point with flying colors.
I just think it's sad too many people don't see the realistic depictions of trauma and how it effects people's lives, or how empowering it is to see the characters helps each other heal. Goblin Slayer is a dark fantasy but also hides a slice of life tale that has a lot to teach people who may also have traumas they are struggling with, and it's something I find comforting in spite of it's flaws and heavy topics. And yeah, I get tired of people always calling it "r*pe fetish bait" out of pure ignorance. So sue me.
As someone who's writing a story with similar beings, the demons in Frieren are a very helpful reference into how non-human people would think differently due to having a different origin. People that came from something like a spider or fish, for instance, would likely think & see the world in completely alien ways to a human. Even something as familiar as dogs would likely be very strange & different as people.
People when demons show real feelings like sadness and fear in Demon Slayer:
People when demons are completely apathetic in Souso no Frieren: *angry weeb noises*
The demons in this show are an interesting take on predatory evolution
The demons evolved to learn speech and have human like faces to be better hunters. But at the end of the day, they are by nature, predators to humans. Coexisting would be like asking deer and lions to coexist
Funny because without predators, prey _would_ overpopulate. Without lions, other animals _should_ hunt the deer.
Predators and prey do co-exist all the time. That is the basis of every ecosystem, dude. You haven't thought about it much before writing the comment?
Also demons are unrealistic. In real world any predator with such high intelligence has at least some empathy for their kind and raises and teaches their young. And can even be "best friends" to other species. (Dogs are carnivors)
@@DarkAdonisVyersand funny how humans did exactly that - overpopulated the world after they escaped the pressure from predators and diseases
I feel like the fact that people are even discussing it and calling Frieren/the author racist is almost proving that the demons manipulation of humans is on point. And proving how great of a writer the author is!
13:40. Yep! He said it too!
Imagine that as someone who understands human nature and the mechanisms on how it can be exploited, try to explain it in an easy to understand way and matter of factly, and ended up being called a racist because of that 😅
It just think it's funny, the way the story CLEARLY said they evolved this way to fool humains... And even after it's said, readers/watchers get fooled and defend them on twitter.
It's not lazy writing, it's just mad genius. People fall into the trap of exactly the point the show was talking about xD
I know right such insights in human nature. Aren't we glad that other animals aren't humanoid looking? 😅
People fucking missed the point that the demons are not oppressed, they're the oppressors
I assure you, I did not miss the point. I don't give a shit because no matter how it's justified in story, I still hate the decision from a writing point of view.
I think an issue with both the moral and narrative arguments is that they don't consider the possibility that introducing an evil race, species, entity, or whatever, doesn't mean that nuance and new perspectives can be introduced as the story progresses. While it may make it more difficult for Demons to be sometimes redeemed later on, it's not entirely impossible if the story and characters are handled correctly. KR Raika already brought up Daleks, but even if the Daleks have remained evil, as with most of the villains of the Doctor Who franchise, they are still shown to have some ability to think, at least if given the oppertunity like certain Daleks were during the tenth Doctors time (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong), and change their attitude torwards other species and/or races if they believe they have done wrong. Which is why some fans have even asked for the Doctor to have a Dalek companion. Again, as mentioned by Raika (which another comment mentioned), something or someone being evil usually means it will serve as a foil to the protagonists or strictly hero figure.
However, what is not mentioned, is that I believe that Frieren's hatred or bias against demons is actually a character flaw that is introduced as for the purpose of allowing Frieren to do what she has been doing for the season, and perhaps the rest of the story. That being her self-reflecting on who she is, the life she has lived, and who she has met, and allowing for her to have more character growth that will serve as the purpose for an arc, if such an arc hasn't happened already, or if it already has.
As with an example of how bad writing plays a part in messing up such kinds of plot elements, well with RWBY one of the many lroblems with the White Fang, and why the White Fang in RWBY is kind of a narrative trainwreck, is actually opposite in what Frieren: Beyond Journey's End has done. While Frieren has introduced the Demons as evil, with a few individuals saying they want to coexist with demons, allowing for the possibility of character growth and in-universe questioning of the assumption, RWBY introduced the White Fang as rebel like figures fighting against oppression caused by humanity, specifically the SDC. Though their tactics are not always so ethically appropriate or sound, they do, or did at one point, have reasons why they chose to fight the way they did, and people could at least understand and/or believe why they chose to be more violent, even if they didn't agree with how violent the White Fang was. While Demons in Frieren have been introduced as evil, there's in-world questioning as to whether or not such an assumption is always true. In RWBY's case, the White Fang was introduced with the ability to be sympathetic with them and their cause, and even maybe agree with some of their stances, while disagreeing with their methods. But then the White Fang was suddenly written into cannon fodder, and purely evil, because they were too violent against our heroes, and the writers seemingly thought the show didn't have enough cannon fodder enemies in it. As a result, all nuance was thrown away because it got in the way of the story.
There's also how the writers handled Adam, but that's an entirely different cave of exploration to go down into.
evil races exist irl
@@mrosskneCan you explain what evil race exists irl?
@@Number1Rival ;)
Excuse me sir, you dropped your hat ((*))
This means their disguise worked
Exactly😂
bro I was so glad that Frieren didn't end up going the now cliche route of the demons actually being sympathetic. Double props for the Mayor dying after spouting that dumbass line I hate of "If you kill x you'll be just as bad as them!"
I still can not fucking believe extra credits compared black people and orcs. The call is coming from inside the house.
literally no one compares black people to orcs and then they pull that one out of their arse their racism just comebacks around them lol
"You play WW2 and, all of a sudden *you play as ww2 germans* you didn't ask for this, you didn't CHOOSE this and yet here you are!"
Your video basically feels like an unofficial reply to that awful video that used the words I quoted, where author argued that "ev1l races are bad" while you here showcasing how it's not automatically bad
Fuck extra credits
omg i remember that shit. how cringe it was. and that was from a corpo site, so you know a bunch of people had to have seen that and sign off on it.
@@KaiserShounenI just want to say that this video has a very good point. But what you said is a very childish behaviour. Extra credits has some amazing contents in it, especially their history related content. So you coming off saying that is very hypocritical, especially since you are judging a channel based on one video.
"Be more civil"
Sigh sometimes, people need to hold in their temper
@@KaiserShounenL beta response
@@godzilla4191I agree with you, one video does not define a channel
3:09-3:18 Probably because they don’t think evil exists and to show how enlighten they are by counter-signaling the concept.
18:09-18:15 The main reason is because Goblin Slayer was only talked about due to shock value.
“Only talked about due to shock value”
I liked Goblin Slayer though. I still do, even if I only read the manga.
The demons are no more evil than a tiger is evil. They actually lack the emotions of malice and hate. Canonically within the series putting a geas on a demon so that it may not act with malice against humans has no effect, because it doesn't even apply to them. Like sociopaths they have gaps in their emotional range that does weird things to their perceptions and actions.
It really does feel like modern people don't have any concept of evil in reality, or rather because of humanism and wanting to believe all people are basically good, evil basically can't exist unless you're on the extreme end of the spectrum like Hitler or something. Or if it exists, it's always a far away, ethereal concept that only applies to limited situations but certainly not to oneself or anyone close to oneself. Like they can literally say someone is manipulative, irredeemable, a sociopath, a home wrecker, verbally abusive, really any number of terrible, terrible traits and yet still say that person was not evil. Do people not know what the definition of evil is anymore?
1) Morally bad or wrong
2) Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful
@@atomicskull6405 Philosophers have created the idea that one needs to understand that what they are doing is evil to be evil, but I don't think most people have any trouble seeing a serial killer as being evil, even if they are a psychopath that does not feel that what they've done is evil. Philosophical self-aware evilness borders on being a straw man that doesn't actually exist in reality. What separates the psychopath or sociopath from a tiger is that the tiger is not self-aware and is acting purely on instinct, but I doubt most people would want to share an apartment with either. That gaps in emotional range (the absence of moral emotions or a "conscience") can allow someone to be casually evil points to how important emotions rather than rational thought are to moral behavior. The foundation of morality is "caring".
@@dl5641 I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Dr. Robert Hare, author of the PCL-R Psychopathy Checklist opined in an article about psychopaths, "There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all. I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.'" If you want to see a very accurate depiction of psychopaths in a non-fantasy anime, watch the anime Peach Girl (yes, really).
Another thing to consider for the "narrative argument"; Frieren does nuance from basic foundations. Elves live long, it's an even more basic trope than demons being evil, but the show brings a depth by considering how does this actually affect their perception? They do the same thing with evil demons, the show explores how they function despite being a race of sociopaths.
Take the demon that Frieren killed in the flashback for instance, I get the feeling that it was honestly trying to fit in with the society, at least for the time being (whatever plans it may have had we'll never know since it died). But it saw a problem "this woman hates me for eating their child", so in an attempt to fix the problem it caused, it went and killed the mayor to give his daughter to that mother, without understanding what everyone got so upset about. There is nuance and depth there, plenty of it, they just don't think like humans do and that's way more interesting.
Well if your last point is true, respectfully, the show clearly fails miserably to make that point, given that most people give outright Nazi rhetoric as justification for the demon killing. That rhetoric might be right in the context of the story (demons may well be physically incapable of not liking murdering babies and of feeling empathy), but it is nonetheless dangerous to create media that not only normalizes, but also legitimizes such sentiments.
Ultimately, you have to understand media as both an extension of and an influence on society. As such, it is, logically, useful to be critical about the fundamental ideas a story sets out to or implicitly justifies.
I could compare demons to an AI with a permanent mission objective: Survive. Anything they do from saying words to taking action is all to survive and hunt humans, and they are still learning because they lack the proper understanding of human relationships and feelings, even the times when they co-exist momentarily is to learn more about humans and how better survive encounters with them and possibly hunt them more effectively. If demons would actually have the ability to facilitate empathy, they would teach their kind what they have learnt living with humans, making them more formidable threat to humanity, yet they don't, and that leads to mistaken actions like the demon child's action to "replace the item destoryed to alleviate enmity, replacement item under different ownership, remove the previous owners" ended up backfiring big time, because the understanding of humans stat was woefully low.
The way these "critiques" and common people not too familiar with demons is also similar to how common person understands AI as well, some people use it like google, possibly endangering their permit to practice law, and just not understanding what makes it tick even in the broadest of sense.
@@radiofloyd2359see this is why the demons in the story looks and acts like humans, would you still compare them to Nazis if they end looking like tigers and lions like natural predators in real life? I just love how people like to explain someone else's stories for them and tell them their understanding is wrong.
@@Nellielle007 If it were different kinds of sentient beings, the rhetoric would go from being problematic against humans to being kinda lame against different sentient beings. I think it's clear which one would be preferable.
Media isn't independent from society. That's all I'm getting at.
@@radiofloyd2359 to each their own. Well too bad this isn't for you.
By the way, to anyone watching, please do not harass or bother the original posters of those twitter comments. They have bad anime takes but they do not deserve more grief than that. Please be civil.
Heck, you can already see other bad anime takes in the comments of this very video.
Hey, i was waiting to watch this anime after the season is completed. Is it over? If so, how many episodes are there?
@@cjoseph645 the season is halfway done. There are 16 episodes out of 28 currently available.
@@cjoseph64528 i think
@@cjoseph645 the 1st half of the season is done, second half begins in some weeks. If you wanna watch the season in full you have to w8 longer. But that said, Frieren is something you should not binge watch but let it sit and marinate. So any time is a good time to start watching. The impressiveness of Frieren doesn't necessarily is in a first watch, but if you would reread rewatch it you get more impacted by the way the story is told and which aspects it handles.
Will be nice to see discussions about this trope with an actual example to focus around
I feel too often criticism of evil races is done without context or in reference to a much more niche/specific example that isn't commonly known about.
And it's just a lot easier to engage in the discussion when everyone knows what you're talking about, rather than a broad trope that's used in a multitude of different ways. Plus I'd GENUINELY like to pick the brain of someone who thinks Demons are bad in Frieren.
I think it’s actually a really creative and refreshing concept it’s really cool how they use our empathy against us
Great points about the moral argument. I remember that nonsense from extra credits but I'm used to it. There is nothing more intoxicating than declaring yourself a Saint and others Sinners.
i actually am better than everyone else tho
@@mrosskne woah, really? Me too!
Almost every anime over the past several years seems to present demons as misunderstood, actually good, or something else definitely not-evil. Frieren presenting them as basically the equivalent of human psychopaths - entirely self-absorbed, using communication solely as a means to manipulate those they take advantage of - is actually a refreshing change.
And there are those who call the Dark Brotherhood from Elder Scrolls sociopaths. Hell, there are those who would call Cid from Eminence in Shadow a psychopath... And they always win.
Demons are not just humans with horns and people should realize that.
@@lekhaclam87 I know they aren't. What's your point? You presuppose that "human" is a prerequisite for association. In Elder Scrolls, 2 out of 3 dark elf gods straight up encourage amicide, and guess what? That's _not_ a dealbreaker.
@@DarkAdonisVyers What are you on about? I wasn't replying to you.
People have been brain rotted by Hollywoods anti-villain "maybe the villian is atchualy the good guy" crap, antagonists can sometimes be yk... evil
I do realize people wouldn’t have a problem if the demons weren’t so human looking.
Period. Make me even more in awe of the author's ingenuity and insights❤
This video is so good. I appreciate the nuance (but mostly the sanity) with which you approached this topic.
Frieren is so interesting to me because, yeah, it does position the demons as purely evil, but also, when talking about the perspective of inclusive writing, why would they need to be anything else? The show goes into great depth of the human characters that behave weird, distant, and dare I say are coded to be neurodivergent/mentally ill, and presents them expecting you to eventually come to understand and accept the way they are (unless they're being assholes, which does get criticized).
We meet lots of human characters that have low or non-existent empathy, Übel and Genau are great examples. While I'd argue there's a bit of room for improvement in how they're portrayed, for the most part they're a really great characters that prove that lacking something people assume is "inherent" to humanity does not equal irredeemable monsters. And even characters that do eventually learn empathy, like Frieren, still have plenty of eccentricities which the series very much expects you to accept as wholly human.
While the idea of a fantasy series being a stand in for a minority group is not an inherently bad idea, it's, quite frankly, a concept that I wish more people would be okay with parting with. Just because some people have internalized dehumanizing discrimination or like to woobify monster characters in media, it doesn't mean that everyone else who doesn't care for such depictions should just sit down and watch/read them, or produce nothing but content like that when they want to explore marginalized experiences. Frieren as a series sort of went "nah, eff you for expecting that here" and it's part of the reason I really love it.
Here's an interesting PoV. Who are we to judge the demons as evil anyway? They aren't humans, why would we expect them to act as humans? Our own societies can't even agree on a shared morality, why would we expect a non-human entity to conform to our own personal and societal standards of good and bad?
Fully agree.
I would also like to point out the perspective in terms of the food chain. Frieren calls demons monsters because they deceive, kill and eat humans, but don't we do the same towards other animals?
We breed animals just to eat them later on, we use all sorts of tricks to kill other animals, we hunt other species for food, fur and even for sports. And do we care? No, because they are below us in the food chain.
Like Meruem once said "Have you ever spared a cow or a pig because it begged for its life?"
@@lisboah we don't eat tool using animals, so the comparison is not quite the same. we think the animals are inferior in terms of emotions and intelligence (and all evidence supports this idea, animals have emotions but seemingly less complex, and their intelligence is defiantly), the Demons know that humans are on a similar level of intelligence to them and the demons know they can eat other animals instead of humans.
that said they are still different species so projecting our morality onto them is not going to be accurate.
I mean, there are tons of non-humans in the Frieren world who are still basically included in "humanity" so well... that's why. Demons are the one exception.
Good and evil are defined as in relation to human life, foundationally. The intrinsic value of a human life, is the basis for all western moral thought, and is fundamentally a faith based proposition. Demons are not doing evil in the confines of this narrative, no moreso than a lion killing an antelope does. They are outside the moral framework.
@@AlienInvader Why are they outside the moral framework though?
Frieren even went to the lenghts to explain to us WHY their villains are evil and WHY we should not feel bad for them. They could have just continued killing them and say nothing. But They took the opportunity to tell us: Even if they can talk, they can't ever be in peace with humans. And Even if I still think they could, even with the way it was explained (because the little demon tried, even if badly, to please humans), I still think it's okay fot the show to go on killing demons. It's what the characters think is right, and they themselves tried to handle it otherwise and failed. This is a goodenough method for any character
Tbh, demons in frieren are as Frieren puts it, “wild beasts without emotions.” Which, while true, gets discussed and brought up more throughout the manga. While we might see them as evil, they really are only antagonists, one which evolved alongside humans, that want to kill, eat, and take over the human world. Which only reason we see them as Evil, is due to that confliction.
Spoilers:
Basically, around chpt 80+ it is addresssed that Demons do have emotions, but no malice, wonder or joy. They do things out of habit, and out of necessity to survive, some which also requires to learn, and copy humans. it’s the reason why when a high demon had a magic item that was putting him under a command, (one who can turn people to gold.) he still killed people even tho the binds said “have no malice for people.”. It’s because demons mentally can’t comput that, and due to that, some higher demons seeked out these type of emotions, especially the demon king and aurora. They also seek preservation, that’s literally what they have evolved for. Shown by Aurora trying to make sure Frieren doesn’t find out more about the past, or where the demon hideout is when she died, because she knew after the demon kings death, that if the mage of the hero’s party were to figure out the rest (like turning the stuff into gold back.) then she will make them all go extinct.
Really, this was a big rant, but season 1 didn’t go into the complexity of demons, and from that, anime-onlys don’t get the full picture. And besides that, we also need a antagonist, one which humans, in the narrative the narrative, wouldn’t exactly work, so demons are kinda a good alternative.
For Avatar I would argue that making him more complex would have actuallybeen a nagative. Ozai, simplistic evil made him a foil to the more complex ones showing not everyone can be redeamed, and it was also thematic in that Aang still chose to spare him despite that. People like Ozai exist. People have kicked natives off a chunck of land just because there was Gold there. No other reason just they wanted the gold and the natives were in the way.
Doesn't even have to be gold, could be just the land itself, look at United Fruit/Chiquita's history!
This video is full of logic and common sense. Kudos Kaiser! The people on X/Twitter that say crap like this don't care about storytelling they care about socialmedia cred and feeling smug. Thank you for this video.
I learned new and eye-opening things thanks to this video, things such as the second season of GS being out, thank you
A literal monster evolves to have speech to eat human flesh.....is the bad guy
Criminally underrated video. my only objection is that once exceptions are made for propaganda, fearmongers need only label things as propaganda to justify fearmongering them.
Thank you for liking the video. If you think it's so good please share it around
this is why d&d renamed "races" to "species". demons is not a race, they have nothing common with humans (or elves, or whoever else).
Demons are the apex predators of humans period, so I always say rip and tear till it is done!
You truly have honor, that is something i will always remember. good luck and good hunting sir. keep moving and find what ever you want im certain you can achieve it.
Every time a person with common sense uses their common sense, a twitter psychopath loses their shit.
Im here for that
I love the reaches people do with fantasy races. Extra Credits equating Orcs to black people will never not be funny to me.
My only issue with these demons is that I don't know where they fit thematically. Frieren as a story is all about learning to connect and be empathic, appreciate the people around you have because you are going to lose them eventually, etc., and then demons show up and the series basically tells you that empathy is not always good, and I'm like "ok, but where are we going with this then ?". I guess I will just have to trust the author to not drop the ball and continue to expand on this.
If you have time (and haven't done so yet), you could read the manga... Most of the demon interactions in the earlier parts of the story serve as set-up for a major arc in the manga that probably won't be animated until season 2
Demons have always been an integral part of that world. Himmel got the title Hero because he defeated the demon lord after all. That being said, empathy isn't always good. People can use your empathy against you, and its not because they themselves dont have empathy, its just that their empathy is not reserved for you. There is a saying where i come from "buat baik berpada-pada, buat jahat jangan sekali", it means; dont do evil, not even once, but if you want to do good, use your wisdom first.
It's also about the wisdom that she's accumulated and the lessons that get lost over time in history as people forget things. She knows what the demons are because of her past, but the others around her have to learn that lesson themselves the hard way. The theme there is about what George Santayana was talking about when he wrote, "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And this is not the only case in Frieren where people's understanding of the past has become distorted or corrupted or important lessons have been forgotten that she knows better about because she was there and remembers. And a big part of her learning to connect is about reflecting on things from her past that she didn't fully appreciate at the time but is understanding better with more experience and reflection.
@@ajca711 That arc does not change the nature of the demons. Read some articles about James Fallon, "The Neuroscientist Who Discovered He Was a Psychopath" (the title of a Smithsonian article about him). He's very much what that later demon arc made me think of.
@@hang_kentang6709 I like that saying. There is an English saying that says, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
This is unironically why I think "that one scene" in Goblin Slayer was actually necessary. If it wasn't in there you would have a lot more people trying to defend the goblins saying that they're "misunderstood" and just 'products of their environment" etc.
Very good video, genuinely well done. Gonna resume watching it after I have digested the twitter brainrot you have confronted me with lol.
Its really good to see that the nuance was in fact done in a manner that nobody really expected to be the best contrast between the main cast and the antagonist of just ONE SINGLE ARC about Macht of El Dorado and his "girlfriend"(I will not stop using that joke for obvious reasons) Nameless Greater Demon Solitär, which made both contrast and nuance really clear and shows why Demons and humanity are incompatible to an extreme degree. And it didn't really change the setting of the relationship between Demons and humanity from Predator and Prey.
I like that Frieren treats monsters like monsters again and not misunderstood whatever. Demons are supposed to be bad.
Damn, you really went off year-worth of steam at 16:00 lmao. Thanks for the video!
Are demons in Frieren actually evil? We see that the girl didn't understand the problems with killing the village chief to give his daughter away, and the demons in that town didn't understand the negative consequences of killing a guard. So are they evil without understanding? The kill and eat humans yes but the same could be said with lions, crocodiles and other predators.
I think @hian post help answer your question.
yea you got it right. the demons in frieren are simply predators who've developed speech in order to more effectively deceive and hunt humans. that makes them "evil" from the perspective of humans, but in reality its more like they're simply higher in the food chain. they have some basic understanding of emotions, but in the primal senses like fear, anger, and joy. they dont understand concepts like malice or guilt.
I heard about Frieren from Gigguk's video but never gave the story a try until I watched the anime about a month ago or so. I regret not looking at it sooner because MAN is it good! Also, nice seeing Static Shock getting referenced (it's the only DC animated show I've ever completed).
And WOW I never expected to see so many examples of people relating fictional races to racism. Regarding Extra Credits, I've only ever watched their history and mythology vids (even then, not so much these days due to a lack of interest) so I haven't really cared for their vid on fantasy races. That being said, it's funny they were alright with (or at least understood) RE Howard's depiction of races within his Conan books (look up the Extra Sci-fi vid series, specifically on the Pulps) yet make a video about "evil races = racism."
To add to the discussion (and be a longman), evil races are only bad if the writing is bad (the same applies if said evil races were made to be sympathetic, e.g. "Bright" starring Will Smith). There have been evil races in both fantasy (LotR's orcs and goblins) and sci-fi (Daleks) who have been written as straight-up evil and they work well for it. Like another comment said, the point with evil races (like with antagonists) is to set them up as foils. There is nothing wrong with adding complexity or sympathy if the story calls for it and/or it can properly show the nuance of said story--which is equally applicable to having the antagonists/evil races be evil (there's a reason why the Joker works as he is, people). The same can apply to even antagonistic factions without being related to race--good examples being the Zeon and Titans from Gundam, the all-female race of Mazone from Captain Harlock, etc. For examples of poorly thought-out villains, look at the Separatists and the First Order from the SW prequels and sequels, where the supposed complexity is just surface-level and was barely explored (not helped that the movies barely did much with them in the first place).
Hell, look at Kamen Rider. The monsters in KR Kuuga (aka the Gurongi) are mostly unsympathetic killers who go on murder games, but they work because they are a foil to the main character Godai's upbeat attitude (and how their actions wear him down throughout the series). On the other end of the spectrum is KR Faiz, where the Orphenochs are former humans who have their own desires and will do whatever it takes to obtain them--sometimes at the expense of regular humans and even other Orphenochs, which somewhat reflects the struggle of the main hero Takumi (granted, there are still issues like the constant miscommunication, but that's more of a separate issue). What makes both examples work (as well as Frieren) is having a brain and being aware of the subject being tackled within the story--and (of course) the execution.
I feel so damn heard with this one. Thanks.
video games definitely make ppl more prone to violence and aggression but i think it’s less the actually game and more the competitive voice chat.
Imagine being a RWBY enjoyer
Nah JK good video, better production than anything I've done
Hey man appreciate it a lot. And don't sell yourself short. Your video came at it from a much more unique and educated angle than I think anyone has ever put into this topic. I hope you don't mind me using your vid as an example.
Keep it up.
i was going to comment, but the video is so good i dont have enough to put a short comment
The nuance of the Demons is that there are some people in that world that DON'T think they are simply monsters that learned human speech to better hunt them. It's the nuance of how good people like Himmel was still conflicted even after the girl demon proved she wouldn't/couldn't change, so he left the finish blow to Frieren in that moment.
Holy crap, is this man playing an acoustic version of one of the MMZ2 opening level themes for the first few minutes of his video? Subscribed.
Goblin Slayer actually had same discussion during first season, it's just that people just don't care for it beyond "wow, how edgy and horny" with it's second season with anime being way worse than manga in how it handles story telling not just in art direction but in ways they convey basic stuff. Shield Hero, Goblin Slayer and Redo the Healer really don't have much beyond being initial controversy and only Goblin Slayer is somewhat enjoyable after a while in manga form due to way better managing tone switches.
Overlord has plenty of fans, but twitter people in the video are usually among haters. Bc anime displays a point of view of said "demons". Of a higher race that views humans as farm animals worth slaughtering or exploitation. Arguments about morality are shit show there, but most arguments simply do not work - they don't apply to nonhuman creatures
I had to take some time to really digest the route they were going with this.
Yeah the way it was starting to be set up it looked like the classic "Old dinosaur was wrong and people can co-exist."
But then we started seeing elements that the old Elf was right because of things she'd seen with her own two eyes and experienced with both parities. Back in the day and current one. And both were venerated with her own personal history.
It was the exact moment where we saw the demons plotting and the third one looked to be slipping away to the dungeon where we knew Frieren was, was the moment it all came together. And they did so brilliantly.
Seeing Flamme describe the demons as 'little more then wild animals'. I could taste the contempt in her words and see how she debases them. But it serves a purpose in giving you a sense of how much hate people have for this race.
The way the demons were just emotionless and speaking almost like Vulcans from Star Trek drove home the point that they don't understand emotion. They can recognize and emulate it. But it has no real meaning for them on an instinctive level. It really made them feel like an entirely different species that justified the 'wild animal' as an actual classification then the insult we 'felt' it as.
The demons are just doing what they do naturally. There's no hate behind it but there is malice. And it's enough to justify the hatred of everyone else.
That's what makes it 'naturally evil'.
You derped *massively* at the end there, _but it's a spoiler for later so I won't say how!_ 😋
@@Poglavnit_Pferdefuhrer Yeah I was having trouble articulating my thoughts halfway through.
It's frustrating when that happens.
Song's used (in order):
Megaman Zero in Resonance - Ice Brain
Cowboy Bebop OST - Sax Quartet
Rule of Rose OST - The Attic
Legend of Dragoon OST - Royal Castle remix by Travis Bowman
Tsuki to Laika to Nosferatu OST - Chief Designer
Smells like Teen Spirit - Robert Glasper 1 take version
Oregairu OST - Ore no Turn
Fire Emblem Awakening OST - Such bonds
Boy i sure do love a reasonable and well thought out argument. Time to spend 15 minutes watching a topic i am somewhat interested in.
Okay so this is a really long comment and I hope you take the time to properly read it. I've put some real thought into this and I would like to think you're more reasonable than this video makes you seem.
Edit: I should start by clarifying that your take on the Narrative argument is actually really good. You kept your temper, made your points, addressed the points of the arguement. That's all well and good. Your presentation in the second half of the video was marked by a sudden assured ness that "normal" and "common sense" are terms that have actual common meaning spanning anywhere in the world.
The reason so many people are very up in arms about evil essentialism in fantasy is because we live in a world where fantasy is marred by a history of racial essentialism.
It's a context that colors perception. An audience that otherwise might not care if "every" demon is evil are going to have knee jerk actions becuase they are Aware of the world they live in. Stories that would otherwise be fine slip in racially biased content and morals all the time, and its grating and unpleasant.
As audience members, its the responsibility for each of us to examine media we consume and remember not to reinforce or accept biases without question. This is basic self awareness stuff, and its an ongoing effort. It started with Tolkien Orcs and is still alive to this day with Rowling Goblins.
One can't just "decide" that the audience doesn't exist within that context. What you Can decide is how you present your story. Frieren currently, as far as 18 episodes of television (which is a lot of screen time get over yourself), a story that includes a race of people (yes, people. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm gonna call it a duck) who are clearly incredibly intelligent and capable of working together as groups. These people are, despite all other factors, seemingly incapable of truly living without doing harm to other humanoid races, to the point of most actual words in spoken language being meaningless strings of syllables that they know get emotional reactions out of other humanoids.
This is the Text of what the audience has access to. It doesn't matter if Later On there is a promise of this being handled nicely. /Currently/, the anime audience is put in a position where their awareness of social issues is flagging the show as having racial essentialism. That flag might be a false flag. Or it might be triggering things other than the basic "hurdadur x racial group is dumb and uneducated and violent" version of racial stereotyping.
Now. Lets just examine what you had to say about the moral argument. You repeatedly come back to an argument of "how normal people see things". Now maybe you can site your sources, but I didn't realize there was a global consensus on what is "normal" or "common sense". Which means you are speaking from a place of what is normal to You, and common sense to You.
To You, the demons don't reflect and racial stereotyping you have experienced. To You, it is common sense not to get overexcited about the whole thing. Sensationalism is awful, I do agree at that point, but your argument here is that the sensational reaction to the essential evil of demons in Frieren is completely unfounded.
Which just doesn't hold water my guy. You can't tell someone they're not allowed to have a bad taste in their mouth.
I personally liked that the demons are evil and its uncomplicated. I enjoy that. There's so many stories that simply lose track of what a monster is in the rush to add nuance.
But I am Not going to sit here on my high horse and say "I'm the reasonable one." "I'm reacting Normally." Because I'm situationally aware enoigh to realize that my perspective is not universal.
So lets take a moment and examine something you said specifically: "They're not people. They're not even human. They're monsters bent on destroying humanity." I paraphrase of course, but you did nearly say those exact words.
Racist people, in real life, literally put up billboards that say "Diversity is code for White Genocide". There are racial views that describe entire people's of this real world as being "inhuman monsters bent on destrpying society". Those people do exist.
So having that sentiment pop up in a beautiful chill vibes show can be unsettling. It can leave a bad taste one’s mouth. That is the foundation of why people had any reason to start talking about racial essentialism in relation to Frieren to begin with. The internet being the internet of course means there's an entire crowd of people who see "Hey this show has a theme that made me uncomfortable" and run off say scream "Frieren is racist!" Into the void. Which Is an unfounded behavior, but it was a sensationalized reaction to a fundamentally sound perspective of the show.
Now, because the show Isn't trying to do racial stereotyping, its actually pretty hard to figure out what real life race is being stereotyped, if any. The only qualities that demons possess that reflect real life racist bigotry are the fact that they are inherent liars, violent, and dangerously manipulative. None of these are so coherent as to directly evoke a real life ethnicity.
However. Jewish people in real life are Constantly assigned world politics manipulating poower (the lizard people conspiracy, cabals, ect.), black people are described as violent, and bigots are always quick to say that their most hated ethnicities are liars.
The traits that Demons possess (inhumanity, violence, manipulation) are traits that are assigned by bigots to minority groups. Even though the Demons are distinctively a fantasy species of humanoids, they quietly evoke racially biased themes. And this is a quiet show, so the audience Has to listen.
*Tldr.* Please go back and read it anyway this isn't a conversation where you can use tldr to mean anything. My closing points are as such: The backlash online is, of course, a sensationalization of otherwise reasonable takes on Frieren. The show, as of January 18th 2024, contains elements that are disquieting and uncomfortable for people who experience racial prejudice and/or are keenly aware of what racism looks like in media. The show is quiet and subtle in nature, and I trust that it will come back around to better explore the subject of demons, but for the time being those demons evoke unpleasant themes for the sake of acting as a narrative foil for Frieren.
First off, thank you for watching the video and taking the time to comment here. I appreciate your thorough response. Very well-read.
Let me clarify that while addressing the moral argument in my video, I wasn’t responding to people like yourself who have a bad taste in their mouths when presented with the way the demons are in the show. Given the current state of the world, it would be weird for you NOT to have that reaction. Any discomfort you or anyone has is completely understandable, and if it seemed like I viewed it otherwise, then I'm sorry for the confusion. Here are the timestamp where I made it clear that I am not against raising an eyebrow at this phenomenon: 16:57.
With that said, let me state what I am opposed to and then clarify my stance on what I meant by common sense since these seem to be the biggest points of contention:
I made the video because some people were suggesting that the story A. might embolden racists and bigots, B. that it directly represents real-life racial groups, or C. that the demon portrayal IS racist and carries all the negative moral connotations that come with it outside of what makes sense in the text. As I explained in my video, I find this perspective untenable. Much like you or myself, it is fine to recognize that the narrative subtly evokes specific themes without resorting to stereotypes or racial tropes (I.e, Rowling's demons), and it wasn’t made in the context where it would be more likely to be a dog-whistle than not (I.e “Troubled Blood”). Combined with the speculative fiction context, this diminishes the likelihood of meaningful real-world harm (intentional or otherwise). To me, this means the matter is closed with or without knowledge of future events in the manga. I suggest watching The Bellman's video on the topic because he illustrates this very well and has examples.
Moving to my view of common sense, I mean that it is fine to simply say that Frieren’s demons evoke many ideas and themes similar to racial essentialism while acknowledging that it is merely using an elemental storytelling concept (as in “what if there is a hostile intelligent species that lack empathy?”) by having an inherently hostile species in its setting. This is just as reasonable of a reaction as well as those who don’t raise an eyebrow at the concept. In my opinion, both are reasonable and normal responses because that's how I have seen most people react to these things in media barring any further hints that it can produce meaningful harm. Even if this isn't a reaction held by most people, I think we can both agree that it is the most practical. What isn’t reasonable or normal is to go the extra mile and say that the story is causing meaningful harm. I understand that this phrase can be somewhat alienating, especially to marginalized views. But I merely use those terms to point out what I find unreasonable/impractical. That said, I do see how confusing this makes things, so I’ll use them less in the future.
I apologize if this wasn’t clear in my video. If you would like to discuss this more privately, I have a private discord server where we can chat more about the topic.
@@KaiserShounen I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that I myself had a bit of a knee jerk reaction to your video. I am very disinclined towards listening to people who assert what is normal or common sense. Call me what you will, but I am one of those folks who has a very hard time understanding hyperbole in speech. What is common sense and normal to me has repeatedly proven to be a very different thing for me and the people I come into conflict with in my life.
I think what happened here is that when you were raising a good point about the sensational reactions people are having about the show on the internet, it was shrouded in an air of "How could anyone ever think this ridiculous thing?"
And the short and long of it is that someone might see your video and then see a post or comment about how Frieren is handling themes of racism and think it's an attack on the show like how you described.
Your emotional reaction (and trust me it was clearly emotional because its obvious you love this show dearly) drew out my emotional reaction, and will continue to draw out other people's emotional reactions.
I'm not really interested in arguing about the specifics of creating a UA-cam video at you; I mean you made something whole cloth so good on you. Its just that its good to reread a script and try to identify where your emotional reaction is more apparent than your actual stance. Otherwise you're just contributing towards the pattern of sensational reactions, when you could be acting to defuse the topic and examine the elements of what people are reacting to and talking about.
Can't say I disagree. I'm just glad that we can clear up the misunderstanding. @@felixrivera895
"evil races are bad" Tolkien, I point you towards Tolkien.
I was not expecting a Frieren thought piece to start with bloody Ice Brain but I'm glad there's at least one other cultured individual out there. Literally did a double take and had to check the description.
Always interesting new take on demons in this fantasy setting. Makes it more standing out per say
Which by coincidence inspired me that my own draft concept of the fantasy world building and it’s so lovely
How many bigots are going to watch a Japanese Anime about a group of people from various races that work together and develop friendships while achieving something great?
I mean, how amny bigots are gonna watch anime in general lol.
@@KaiserShounenapparently a good amount considering how big anime is right now
Sure but that is no good reason to morally strong arm authors to censor their work (barring obvious things like not endorsing real world violence)@@audreyharris7643
@@audreyharris7643 and that's always a good thing, you don't belong in the anime community if your a twitter freak or a leftists. you should be gatekept because you ruin everything.
I have to disagree with that last sentence _for one important reason!_
*I NEED ME MY GODDAMN AKUMETSU ANIME* 👿
8:52 THANK YOU!!! Jesus, I say this to people all the time trying to hype up or tear down the new popular show of the season after it's first 12 episodes. Most stories are just getting off the ground and into their first major arc at that point, there simply isn't material to make sound judgements yet. The discourse around anime as a whole would be improved if people could just wait for stories to unfold before passing off their hot takes.
Granted, I have no problem with people making judgements on a show starting out. There can actually be some meaningful flaws in the text that need addressing.
The issue in this case, is that these peoples critiques come off as very unrealistic.
Demons on twitter trying to gaslight humans into not believing demons are bad... Ahh projection
The demons in frieren are CLEARLY a metaphor for toxic manipulative people, and how little they care for you, or each other, and most importantly how you SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER GIVE THEM SECOND CHANCES AS IT IS CLEARLY SHOWN IN THE ANIME
Moral relativists hate the idea of intrinsic good and evil because it makes them self concious of their faults.
Nah, in any TES game that allows it, I join the Dark Brotherhood without remorse.
Ironically, the demons in frieren arent even intrinsically evil. They are just intrinsically hostile to humans. Like insects hunting their prey
@@JustScrapHD What the average Frieren viewer fails to or refuses to understand is that humans love seeing other humans die, see how popular gladiatorial arenas were. No one was forced to watch anything. The spectators came to see humans kill humans. It was an enjoyable experience. Why should demons not be allowed to join in on that infinite well of fun?
@@DarkAdonisVyers I have no idea what that has to do with anything. Its not about being "allowed" or whatever, like i said demons are not intrinsically evil. Their existence is simply an inherent threat to humans and the other races, so coexistence is impossible. Thats the only point demons are supposed to make in frieren so far.
As a moral relativist, nope, it doesn't. Evil races are evil from human perspective, but not their own. The point of moral relativism is that good and evil are concepts that are entirely dependent on culture, and vary greatly between cultures. I can only evaluate my faults within existing moral frameworks. Some of my traits that are considered virtues in my cultures are considered problematic in, for example, Western cultures. I simply can't see how it can even make me self-conscious.
Funny thing is, only a small amount of people on twitter care... but they are loud. I just let them scream and enjoy the stuff they hate. Leyly and Andy, class of 09 and the amazing frieren.
For me, it is just personal preference.
Having an evil race in the story to produce conflict can be a good idea if well implemented, such as in Goblin Slayer and Frieren.
I personally like things more complex than that.
But then again, Frieren's narrative isn't focused on the conflict between good and evil, and what really pisses me off is that people don't get the point of the story.
kino's journey the beautiful world is epic.
Aside from Macht, I think people really overlook Solitär in the conversation. We get some hint of the author's view on the topic through Solitär, especially on this one particular panel on chapter 100, page 9 where she questions Frieren's humanity. It's extremely subtle and I would bet majority of people totally missed the implications; the concept of 'who is the monster here' becomes complex the more you think about it after reading that chapter. Perhaps it's even a reflection of the author's perspective on the matter, but very hidden and very subtly explored in that passing comment by Solitär, who may even have a deeper understanding of humanity than Macht since she has made studying humans her whole life's endeavour (we know demons devote their lives to one particular type of magic, and Solitär devoted hers to humanity and human magic).
Nah, I don't think Solitar really wants to "chat", she's simply very good at grasping people's psychology and her lying skills are much better than Lugner's. Her purpose is just to view humans as a research object. When the object loses its value, she will kill it. Chapter 92, there were reports of her killing an entire village. Her way of working makes me feel much more disgusted than Macht.
As for Macht, he simply asks humans to follow his orders so he can better understand humans, if you can't do it then you will be killed, if he wants to spare you then you will be let live exactly as he said.
But for Solitar, it's completely different. She uses "chat" to understand the test subjects, then she kills them while they're careless without giving them a chance to fight her. She only understands "people" rationally and with common knowledge, she doesn't even understand the true meaning of "chat", for her "chat" = "research".
Quite late but let me put it like this, Geologists know more about rocks than other humans, they are passionate about them and constantly work to learn more, but is any of that empathy for the rock. End of the day everything they learn are just to satisfy curiosity and benefit themself and other people, not the rocks. Humans are the rocks to frierens geologist demons.
Interesting. Another anime I haven't heard about before. Sorry for my cultural confusion, I'm more of a retro person, who rather enjoys retro gaming and retro stuff. Also...the term "Fantasy Racism" is new to me. 😅 So I once again, apologize for my confusion, Kaiser. 😄
None of this would've made any noise if the demons weren't cute anime waifus unfortunately. I don't see anyone ranting on how they basically went gg scrub on quall, I bet people would bandwagon on the dragon that stark killed if it was portrayed like dragon maid.
Glad to see people from the village that hosted a demon kid had an internet access and apparently twitter lol
In my opinion, when there are different intelligent species in story (fantasy or SF), calling some "evil race" is nonsense in the first place. They're different species. The question is "Can they co-exist or not?" and having "can't" version species in story doesn't make it lazy storytelling automatically.
Meanwhile in Warhammer 40k
No. Throughout real history there have been several human species and subspecies. there is currently only one highly intelligent species left on Earth. Most of the fantasy story is only hand waving the problem of co-existence.
Actually Ozai needs to be you redeemably evil Iroh's redemption story doesn't hit half as hard without being able to see the man he would be otherwise and Azula has no justification to be half that crazy without her dad being a stand-in for Bad-Mustache-Man.
Imagine that some demons in frieren evolve further to get emotions similar to the human ones. It would make the show even more real as they will be even more compellingly villain.
Very good example is jujutsu kaisen and cursed spirits. Most of them are just evil and have no thought some have some but it is not complex, the ones that are complex have also complex emotions. They are still evil but the point is that from their side humanity is also evil. This makes it possible for the person watching to empathize and thus this will increase the viewers enjoyment of the whole series.
mahito the goat
People are mad because waifu demons get kysed, nobody cares about ugly goblins.