Thank you all for enjoying the video. Me and Pete had a lot of fun working on it. That said, please do not harass Lily, Misgender her, or make transphobic comments. Really appreciate it.
Ironically, I don’t even think she’s necessarily wrong, more like Lily’s just telling a half truth with that point. I’ve seen genuinely racist people hate on black characters for simply being black, but call them Mary Sues for it? That I have yet to see.
Uh, haha, *WHAT.* I've literally never seen a race as a reason to call someone a Mary Sue. Literally never have seen that, what a hot take. People usually use the character getting everything they want, they don't have any real conflict, everyone usually loves them, and distorts reality to do all the above to define a Mary Sue, not...their race lol. Llily Orchard thinking that is wacky, what even. Girl is talking about how the trope is sexist but then randomly made it about race?
There was an episode of Kamen Rider Kuuga with a scene that used Lily's idea of a Mary Sue, someone giving en enemy a one-sided beatdown, and it worked because it was played for horror. The titular character was so enraged by a villain heartlessly murdering dozens of high school students for a sick game, he outright snapped and ruthlessly beat up the villain so much, right before he killed him, the villain was trying to run away from the hero. This scene works because it while it was cathartic to see this child murderer get his comeuppance, it also served as a shocking moment highlighting just how dangerous Kuuga himself is when he isn't fighting for justice is, in addition to contributing to the show's central theme about the cycle of violence. Yes, Kuuga easily killed the villain, but it was because he was in a dark state of mind that is very concerning to see from someone who is usually an optimist that fights for everyone's smiles. Lily is someone who believes that any problem can be solved with violence, which is an idea that is factually incorrect, both from a writing standpoint and a real world standpoint. Then again, this is the same person who's Star Wars OC is more than willing to murder whoever gets in her way, and is supposed to be the good guy.
Moral of the story: Kamen Rider Kuuga is peak fiction. Godai's overpowered aspects enhanced the story whereas those like Captain Marvel make it worse. But as far as Lily is concerned, both of these characters are the same, so its ok. An utterly worthless sentiment.
Basically in a nutshell, Lily thinks the genocide route in Undertale is the ¨True Ending¨ lol and anyone who argues otherwise are somehow supporters of that one dead evil german man with a tiny mustache.
I remember one video she made where she basically said, "If you don't think violence is the solution, then kindly fuck off from the grown-ups table." She lacks self-awareness so much that cannot see how childish that is.
For anyone who’s deadly curious, Stockholm is a My Little Pony fan fiction (which Lily admitted to writing in the past and is now desperate to distance herself from it) which consists of a whole lot of incest, pedophilia, grooming and any other degenerate filth you can think of. Most of the plot consists of a mentally deranged Rainbow Dash taking advantage of and grooming her own family member. I haven’t properly read it myself (thank fuck for that), but definitely do not go and seek it out, it’s fucking horrid that this was ever even conceived in the first place 🪦
@@DSmith3279 I can give you the barest of bones: My little pony but rainbow dash is a child molester, twilight is abusive to her oc wife that was the MC of a mlp fangame where you colonise ponyville and can see pony cp and pony incest. other things in the fic are incest between sweetie bell and rarity, the cutiemark crusaders shame one of their own for getting molested, written out scenes of children engaging in sexual activities with other children and adults, excusing domestic violence and encouraging it to continue. there are also other fics in this series of fanfiction. one which is mlp lolita but the pedo groomer wins mostly. there's more shitty things in her fics outside stockholm. none I'd recommend reading, she's not a good writer she's just a interesting one (in seeing a dumpster fire). I'd faster recommend you read Mad K in front of your mother, out loud. and trust me: that won't end well either
@@DSmith3279 it's a fic where rainbowdash from my little pony has a penis and rapes the child character scootaloo. The story justifies this and the two end the story in a romantic relationship. This is the TLDR, I couldn't begin to talk about every messed up part without taking up like 5 comments
Terrible Writing Advice has also done a sequel video on "how not to write a Mary Sue" where he details that his definition nowadays is "a character that hurts a story through excessive favouritism from the author". I think that's a useful definition as well, especially when he points out that many traits are only symptoms, not the disease itself.
What I've seen a lot of in the Mary Sue debate is co flating Power Fantasy Characters as Mary Sues. Superman is a classic example. For all extensive purposes, Superman is a complete character. He is already morally upright and has developed his powers and abilities. Yet Superman still struggles, still has narratove stakes and still has to work within the confines of his setting. You also have James Bond who is ostensibly the perfect man. Every guy wants to be him every gal wants to be with him. James Bond does not bend and break the rules of the setting. He doesn't destroy narrative stakes. Out of Character, or Deus Machina moments don't save him. He doesn't just get a super power, or pull out a gadget Q never gave him. While he as a characters doesn't need to grow. He still can be in danger, his story still has narratove stakes. Power Fantasy can be good. Mary Sue is always bad.
Use her logic against her and put a mary sues in the WOW story. A cool new shadow elf that become a leader of the horde, heals Sylvana Windrunner, kills a Arthas that somehow returned and everyone loves her.
Gonna be honest here I used to watch Lily years ago and thought that she was someone what was speaking some fact... now that i am older and know proper story telling and has seen the state of the internet and the levels of strawmaning happening. I really don't know how I ever thought anything she was saying credible. God her old Vids were bad.
for me a Gary/merry sue is a Character who is borderline perfect in almost every single way, makes no mistakes or if they makes mistakes they don't suffer any real consequences from them, they bend or brake the rules of there established setting on a regular basis. overpowered with very little rhyme or reason outside of there their special. never undergo any change or character character development because there perfect the way they are, and they are popular and well loved even though there is no reason given or shown why they are liked. can you have a character who is borderline perfect? you sure can. the anime Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto had that as it's plot, with characters reacting to how borderline prefect Sakamoto is. can you have a character that beads or brakes rules of an established setting? yes. many battle shounens do have characters that do bend or brake rules to a certain degree, because there the exception that proves the rule. can you have a character that is overpowered? yes and you even tell many interesting story with an overpowered character, for example tell the story about how there power isolates them from human society. on it's own having a character with these aspects is fine. however what really makes a character a gary/merry sue for me is that they have no depth to them or not much of a personality outside of "Holy shit look how powerful they are"
Got to say great video but I have an issue about Kirito. He doesn't fit being a Mary/Gary. To start he isn't some genius level programmer. It's never stated or shown to be the case. We do know that he has built his own computer and was a beta tester which neither would require high level programming. Kirito is indeed a skilled player but also so are people like Asuna who are just as good as him. All the women don't pine for him. By the end of the Aincrad arc he's married to Asuna. None of the girls had a crush on him except for Liz but she quickly stopped after seeing him with Asuna. As for Suguha his cousin there's missing context. First she didn't know the player was her cousin/brother since it was 2 years after what happened in SAO. After she finds out the player was Kirito she quickly stops after her "romantic" feelings became sibling feelings. They have a normal sibling relationship. He didn't hack into a complex AI. Yui was an admin that gave Kirito access to the game files where He copied Yui's code into an Item and the copying that to his personal computer. Blocking Bullets is a mix of factors. His Kendo training did help but also he has good reaction speed plus like all vet SAO players their stats were carried over to GGO. The sword he uses the Photon Sword which is designed to interact with bullet lines which helps him defect bullets. There's a lot of game mechanics that go into Kirito defecting bullets. Kirito loses his 1st fight with Kayaba with their 2nd fight barely being a draw. Kirito is nearly killed by Kuradeel being saved by Asuna. Those are a few fights that come mind with him losing major fights. He never willed himself to live in a death game. It was established early on that there's a delay in dying in the game and the headset killing you. Not including the fact it was always shown you fade away slowly which gives you time. Kirito was hit with an adrenaline before he died giving him that final strength to make the fight a draw. This is no different than any other story where they do this.
Naofumi is a Gary Stu? But he goes through literal hell throughout season one. He gets his most powerful abilities because he thinks he's losing everything. He hurts those he loves while using this power and can only get out of berserker mode when his closest loved one puts herself in danger and realizes his mistakes. He's flawed as hell.
My God, the comments on the original vvid. I lost braincells. It's full of people who focus on the spectacle of a character rather than the reason people get invested: good writing. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them are Kirito fans.
The thing about her is that she made Ascentia, who was so bad that there was a game made with her by Lily and it turns out that illegal things were on there and Ascentia was pretty much the same as her Sith OC, only I'm pretty sure she got recycled by the looks of it. Also you can make a Mary Sue but the thing is, you have Mary Sues mainly by the writing being forced to appeal to the female character. Then again, that is all Lily is known for: forced atrocious writing.
Hmmm, I almost completely disagree on the Korra assesment. 1-It is never implied that Past lives can outright teach the current Avatar how to bend an element. Aang simply restored Korra's bending which she already had learned on her by that time. The problem here is actually the fact that she masters the Avatar state here, I agree on that. 2-Neither show implied that seismic sense was NECESSARY to Metal Bend. Toph learned it that way, and she taught Aang how to do the seismic sense. Furthermore, did you guys pay attention when Korra learned Metal-bending? By this point in the era the show takes place, techniques for teaching metal-bending have developed. They use a special metal that is easy to bend to teach beginners, and that's precisely what happens with Korra, also Suyin instructs her that she must concentrate and feel the fine traces of earth to bend the metal. And if that isn't enough, we see Korra training the entire Zaofu arc, she even struggles to open a metal gate. Now, if you'd tell me she knowing metal-bending made her overpower you may have half a sound argument... but it's not even close, if the writers wanted her to be unstoppable Korra would've learned blood-bending, lava-bending, or even lighting-bending (which is more lethal than metal-bending if done properly). To end this point, Korra doesn't even use Metal-bending that much, she showed throughout the entire show to be a rounded fighter and she didn't put an element over the other. 3-The Raava issue. Simple, it isn't actually an issue. By definition it is a retcon, but almost every single sequel in entertaining media does that. We can use the same logic on a lot of recognizable and well received products and that doesn't mean it was bad. Shrek 1 to 2, Far Far Away was never mentioned or alluded to in the first movie, not even by Fionna who is from there. Are you going to tell me it is an issue that Shrek 2 has an issue from basing its plot on a kingdom that wasn't mentioned before? Star Wars Episode 4 to 5, Obi Wan told Luke Darth Vader killed his father, but in this movie Darth Vader reveals he was his father. One of the most iconic moments in cinema history, and it wasn't planned since the production of the first movie, the writers simply thought it would be a cool twist when producing the sequel. See? This argument falls apart easily, and if the issue is "it contradicts what ATLA established." Then, you're wrong again. Roku only said "the skill and knowledge of previous Avatars is passed into you", and Katara and other characters talked about an "Avatar Spirit". So what Raava does is making a bridge between the past lives and the current one, while also explaining why that is even possible in the first place. 4-Liar! Korra didn't master the elements faster than Aang in the slightest. By the time we meet her she can control 3 elements but she stills undergoes training to master those 3 elements when she's 17. It is already implied by the very first episode that she's rarely allowed to go outside, and later seasons made this a plot-point, Korra literally stayed secluded completely focused in training until she was 17, which by the way, explains why her self-identity relies on her being physically proficient and being the idolized Avatar figure she has in her head. Korra then learns airbending, and did not master it until season 3. Now Aang was LITERALLY 12 when he mastered air-bending, he mastered water-bending in around 6 months, and learned the other 2 elements in that same span of time. Simple, math, if Aang could learned an element in 6 months he mastered all four elements at 13 years old. And that's being generous, but if we still say that he might've still struggled with earth and fire due to his pacifistic nature and doubled the time, then Aang would've been around 14 and 15 years old. Your statement on Korra learning faster than Aang is a blatant lie. 5-Seriously? You think the show is portraying Aang as a "horrible" father just because he wasn't a perfect parent? Even when the characters themselves say how much they loved him, even the resolution of that plot line was all three siblings saying "what a happy family"? My God, this is just unjustifiable, so not sorry for saying this but, amigo you're pendejo. Pay attention before opening your mouth or else you risk saying pendejadas/bullshit like this. Also, wow! The character that grew up without parents, who lost his entire community at 12 and had to become independent that early in life, and who was comprehensible very concerned with preserving his culture turned out to be an imperfect parent. Finally, you contradict yourself when you say "If a character is physically powerful, then you put internal struggles to balance it out". Well guess what? That is precisely what they do with Korra. S1-Korra deals with the fear of loosing her identity as being the Avatar is all she knows and values in her self-perception. S2-Korra deals with respecting spirituality and being more patient. S3-Korra actually doesn't have an arc here, but showcases her growth from the previous seasons and suffers the catalyst for he arc in S4. S4-Korra deals with trauma, and falls back into the perception of not being needed. Furthermore, with exception of S1, Korra suffers consequences from her actions and external conflicts in the plot. So, all of this falls under the statement you made, but you still label Korra as a mary sue based on assumptions, flawed arguments, and a blatant lie. Pongase trucha gringo, o sino mejor no habra el hocico.
1: In doing so, Aang taught her energy bending as well. So yes, technically the past Avatars can bestow gifts onto current Avatars. And yes the Avatar State stuff as well. 2: It actually 'is' implied by the visuals and Guru Pathik's explanation. He talks about the impurities in the metal as Toph is using her seismic sense to find them, which allows her to feel them in the metal and eventually make them bend as well. I won't argue on the training metal because I don't know enough about it, and it honestly just reminds me of the space earth from A:TLA with how malleable it was with Toph bending it. I won't touch on the Bloodbending / Lavabending either, since we're focusing on Korra specifically, but the Bloodbending in season one was outright BS. 3: The thing about Raava being a retcon is that it doesn't fit with its own story still. It destroys the base which Korra used to build itself up. Just because other media does it doesn't make it a good thing, especially when destroying your own canon for the show, even if we specifically talk about Korra and not even A:TLA, but I will include A:TLA, since TLOK specifically relies on A:TLA to function. "In the era before the Avatar, we bend not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." is changed to. "We get our bending from the Lion Turtles, but a magic kite needs to be inside of someone to make them use more than one." That rips asunder all the issues that happened in A:TLA And TLOK season 1, and the reincarnation cycle. Also, those examples aren't comparable to a retcon at all. A retcon is changing something from a previous form of media to function differently in the new form of media. In Shrek 1, Far Far Away isn't brought up, but it does nothing to affect the plot of Shrek 2 to bring it up then. If it was mentioned in Shrek 1, nothing would have changed about the story. Obi Wan telling Luke that Vader killed his father is PART of the story, not a retcon. Obi Wan was intentionally trying to get Luke to kill Vader because he is evil, and if Luke found out he was his father he was worried Luke wouldn't go through with it. That's literally explained in episode 6. Even if it isn't planned it isn't retcon. Now, if you wanted to argue that Luke kissing his sister before finding out that oh so little secret is a retcon that's fine, but building the story as you go and even adding things to the story as you go, as long as it doesn't affect the previous parts of the story, isn't a retcon. The Avatar Spirit and Raava are two completely different things and can't truly exist together. 4: I won't argue on the wording they used, since they mispoke when talking about Korra 'mastering' the elements at the age of 4, but even then did you see that opening scene? She still 'LEARNED' faster than any bender in history, knowing the motions, movements, fluid execution and elements of three bending properties at the age of 4, able to shoot fire onto his coat and immediately put it out with just enough water to make both the fire and water evaporate? Yeah no she may not be a 'master' but she damn well knows how to bend those three elements the same way Aang could bend water and earth when he was able to finally learn how to. Aang had a natural affinity to water and fire, and struggled hard with earth, but he still needed to learn the motions and techniques to bend earth, his natural opposite. So by the logic of the show, Korra shouldn't be able to bend fire, if not very well, but here we are at the age of FOUR, with her bending away as if she's done it for quite some time. 5: Yes, they did. They really laid into Aang's parenting skills. Yes they loved each other, that's how all family dramas come to a conclusion outside of cutting ties with horrible family members, but yes they really liked to emphasize how much time Aang spent with Tenzen and not the others because they weren't airbenders. We aren't saying he could have issues being a dad in the future, but the show really wanted to say Aang was bad at it. 6: You are correct as to what they did with Korra, but the stakes aren't really that big in the grand scheme of things. In A:TLA, if Aang fails, the world is doomed, in TLOK season 1, if Korra fails... she doesn't get to be the big hero anymore? The lessons from the other seasons are lessons she should have learned earlier anyway, patience was what she needed to learn Airbending, but she just magically unlocks Airbending because the plot needed it. The trauma should have been given to her post spirit whipping Raava took to delete her past lives from existence, and in every season she suffers from the consequences of her own actions,. she just seems to fail upwards. Everything keeps going right for her despite her being wrong or losing, she never makes a single mistake that has consequences she has to account for until season 3. So for the first two seasons, we can safely call her a Mary Sue. I'd argue in season 3 and 4 as well, but that's not what they're arguing, so I won't speak on their behalf. I'm not into fish much myself, thanks.
interesting fact, the Gundam clip you used was actually from Gundam Seed Destiny, the sequel series to Gundam Seed but this is a nerd thing, my bad. Proceed Kings.
Ah, my poor isekai anime... Why, why does every new title become a power fantasy, why must characters reach their peak before the end of episode one. Can they not understand the charm of another world is in the experience, not the urge to rule it, and with such an emphasis on game -like worlds, should it not be obvious... A game is a challenge to overcome, you start from nothing and grow, even peaceful games work that way. And yet these anime treat a sense of growth or overcoming challenge as something to avoid
@@espurrseyes42No she doesn't. Not even a little bit. Legend of Korra is a show with serious issues but Korra being a Mary Sue isn't one of them. And he's wrong about just about everything he said. First of all saying she mastered the elements faster than Roku is irrelevant because Aang mastered all 4 elements by the age of 12, and it was in one summer. Sure we see her throwing some rocks, water and fire around as a toddler but it's mostly played for laughs. sure she has a natural affinity for bending elements but her ability is far from dangerous at that age it's more of a nuisance. By 17 she's mastered 3 elements and it takes her an entire season to even start to airbend. Also she learned the Avatar state at 17 Aang learns it at 12 but he gets struck by lightning at his injuries block him from being able to use it. And she's like mediating constantly and trying to get spiritual so even though she doesn't have to train with a guru to learn it it isn't as though it comes all that easy to her and even she gets blocked from using it later in the series so it seems like a pretty weak criticism to me. She's certainly a prodigy but I don't think her progress in the series blows Aang out of the water or anything. But none of this even matters really. She's been training for years with masters and if they had wanted to start her as a fully realized Avatar they could have because what really matters is her emotional development as a character, and she needs plenty of growth there. For one thing at the start of the show she's impulsive, doesn't listen to people, is overly sure of herself, she's impatient. And the story doesn't exactly reward her for it either. She gets her butt kicked several times and she starts out being pretty bad at pro bending. She is also pretty bad at relationships because she has a hard time talking about how she feels. Later on in the series she struggles with PTSD and feels like she can't do anything right, and is afraid to let her friends help her. She's about as far from a Mary Sue as you can get.
@@nathanjasper512 "No she doesn't. Not even a little bit." >Starts the series bending everything but Air as an infant. >Conveniently learns to Airbend right after she loses her other elements and Mako is about to lose his bending, allowing her to turn the one-sided stomp against her around and take out Amon. >Spirit Aang shows up to give her bending back + Avatar State (Aang learned this at 12 because he found a master to help him achieve the spiritual enlightenment required to willingly use it, aided by his already high spirituality as an Air Nomad, don't take this out of context to defend Korra literally being handed it on a silver platter) + Energybending to undo the harm Amon did. >Loses the Avatar Spirit, but then somehow syncs up with the Tree the evil spirit was sealed in to have a Giant Spirit Avatar battle with her uncle, reviving the Avatar Spirit and beating the Dark Avatar despite how much weaker she should be compared to him. Yes, she does have Mary Sue traits. But she's not a Mary Sue. What with all the times she struggles with things from Airbending to social & political stuff, getting beaten by enemies frequently, the PTSD from Amon, and the Mercury poisoning. In fact, in regards to the first trait, it makes sense for her to already know all the elements besides Air and have her training sped through given that the world is at peace thanks to Aang's efforts prior. The war is over, Republic City exists as a place where people from all nations live in harmony (allegedly), and the White Lotus is around to protect and train her so she doesn't have to journey the world and constantly be in danger like Aang was. She had an easy start because of her predecessor's efforts so we could get straight into Airbending training we didn't get from Aang (since he had it by default), and more importantly, get into how she'd handle all the new social and political issues and new conflicts of the new world. Her early bending, in context, isn't a Mary Sue trait, and is perfectly justified. Doesn't excuse the rest of the traits that she most definitely has, but she's by no means the perfect angel that can do no wrong and can get nearly everything done herself you expect from a true Mary Sue.
Also i mean shad and conservatives liking a male lead like miles morales despite Miles potentially being a Gary sue is not that hard a concept, they only have an issue with that when it’s females cause that’s woke feminist to them, meanwhile people like Yellow Jacket had problems with miles being spider-man cause he’s not white and has openly said that.
@@KaiserShounen 1. Cause they are popular, and nothing makes you look like a loser more than hating on something that is widely popular that’s also why critical drinker and those kind guys did multiple videos attacking House of the dragon, and Fallout before they came out then when they did come out and were massively popular across the board, all those hate videos ended and you can tell it was because of how popular they were, because none of those people who supposedly are all about media, did any videos celebrating or talking about those shows i think critical drinker admitted on vid or social media that fall out and etc was a good show but he never made any content about it hyping it up, analyzing it, not like he does his anti SJW and anti woke vids 2. These people are not consistent, it’s either grift, or it’s so vibes based that they go off how the individual media makes them feel that’s why they can like a bad ass female character in one show, and then do 30 videos about how the Barbie movie is abomination and trying to ruin culture cause of the feminist message etc. etc.
@@mckenzie.latham91 I don't know much about these creators but if that is the case, Lily should have done a better job establishing that their standards are inconsistent. Plus its hard for me to believe they don't actually believe that the shows they don't talk about aren't critically good and they just so happen to luck their way into celebrating them. If anything, it would be more profitable to make several videos shitting on Arcane or calling it woke than saying it was good and an example of what stories should be. The attention that would get would eclipse any Barbie video.
@@KaiserShounen I don’t defend Lilly, i just thought the reasoning why Shad can’t be called out as a anti-womanist (despite saying a lot about women that qualifies as such) Was bad evidence on its own assurance. As for the rest of that Once again, they can’t make hate videos about popular media because then you look like a hater and a loser this is part of the right wing culture war content, where they think having more likes, subs and clicks means you are inherently more right attacking popular media is bad for their image (crapping on Arcane would get you negative publicity where people would be asking WTF is up with you and or would think you are an idiot with no media analysis) and it is worse for their ideology that everyone hates wokeness so much, that that’s why everything woke dies only to then have “woke” content succeed. They can't draw attention to “woke" content that is popular because it hurts their rhetoric. thats why they will never talk about how great these shows are, or analyze the message of these shows and if they do it’s always somehow different from other woke content, for reasons that don't hold up to scrutiny and yes if you are media critics, or analysis channels then you naturally will do analysis of vids you like as well as dislike I’ve consumed a lot of video essays and internet content and what i’ve seen is People who like Beserk, talk about berserk and how great it is, or analyze what messages it has and things it does right People who love lord of the rings, make videos about how great lord of the rings is, or analyze what messages it has and things it does right People who like Marvel talk about how great marvel is and, analyze what messages it has and things it does right If you think these things are great, you usually cover them, and not make no content on them, or jsut hate them. Yet these guys only talk about how woke something is, or how bad it will be cause it’s woke or how much wokeness ruins the story etc. etc.
@@mckenzie.latham91 Didn't Drinker these other creators also make videos on shows they liked and stuff occasionally? Im pretty sure he had nothing but good to say about his Arcane reviews. Idk if I could say whether or not someone makes content about the things they like is an indication of grifting. It all depends on the content they wish to make and how accurate their assessment is. I like JJK but I'm going to make more content shitting on RWBY because I enjoy doing that more. I made one video on why I liked Kingdom Hearts. Does that make me less of a fan or more likely to be a grifter because I only made one video? I would say no because my argumentation for both is highly consistent. That should matter way more than whether they made one video of this or 40 videos of that. I honestly don't care unless they're inaccurate. Otherwise, anyone who isn't right wing that has similar ratios of content would fall under that banner. But again, its hard for me to argue whether or not this is the case because I don't watch these people.
Look I'm above not slamming sword art online! {also I thought that was his sister not cousin? Then again it would have been OK in the South I can make that joke for a lot of reasons} I can kind of disagree with you on ray and definitely on Carol! But there's more reasons why Sword Art Online is terrible because of the favoritism of our double wielding the swordsman they only explain the rules of any game! I mean I could arguably say hammer space super genius kids have more character than this guy and they break the universe all the time I mean just look at Rick and Jimmy and Dexter and Dexter[have fun trying to figure out which one is which I mean both have a sister named deedee and both could be possibly guilty of murder that said only one of them is guilty of resurrecting A robotic dog and turning into a killing machine] but there's a big difference between a story arc and one shotters not to mention also super genius children still managed to make the world sound interesting because they know how to make stakes and also still makes things to make the plot more enjoyable versus who wishes he was the black swordsman and I know so many there are better especially one with a nice Afro. [also Lily stinks again what else is new]
Lily Orchard somehow lost a shadow boxing fight with herself, an imaginary opponent she made up, and with any random opponent that enters the ring for fun, all at once. I don't know if that's impressive, sad, or hilarious. So to compromise, let's say it's all three.
@@KaiserShounen You should do a response to Lilly's Star Wars videos and her views/opinions on the Sith/dark side of the force Honestly Lilly's thoughts on Star wars is quite... Interesting to say the least. She uses a lot of examples from the KOTOR games of sith not being evil due to the design of those games around player choice and how they choose to play as a Sith. The choices in the old Republic for the dark side being somewhat less evil than you would expect for a Sith.
Guys i think the problem is Lily thinks "I like it so it's good, i don't like this so it bad" and then tries to explain her logic when there is none. And she does that by making shit up
@@That_1GayTheaterKid a moment of silence for Rebecca Sugar who dealt with right-wingers calling SU propaganda and then later left-wingers for doing the same thing somehow.
I mean, tbh, most people are this way. You see many people defend male Mary Sues because they happen to like them and its a power fantasy thats appealing to them.
@@shizachan8421 tbf you can have an overpowered character and still have a compelling plot. Elsa is arguably OP but what makes her interesting is her powers hinge on her emotions which are unstable - the more emotional she is, the more her powers grow uncontrollable, and her arc is about learning to rely on people who care about her. Most people write off Mary Sues because they tend to be uninteresting seeing as their powers can just fix any conflict because the conflict can develop or influence the plot in any way. I can immediately think of SAO's Kirito where the plot itself bends itself backwards for his sake when it's supposed to be the other way around.
@@randompromises1038 I agree, but I also think that there is quite the difference between an overpowered character and a Mary Sue. I thinke ven more than Elsa wie have Superman, who is probably one of the most overpowered super heroes in comics history. But what makes him compelling is how his powers are used to convey his inner godness and heroism and the best Superman Stories are those, that focus on the fact that what makes him special are not his superpowers, but the innate goodness and kindness of Clark Kent, his best moments are quite small acts of him being more akin to a guardian angel, who will show up in your hour of need and who can resolve situations without relying on his powers. A Mary Sue on the other hand is overpowered to convey a very self-serving power fantasy, with the plot and the characters surrounding them bending over backwards to enable this power fantasy. Kirito like you said is one of the most infamous examples of that, but I also think that it shows how easily audiences are able to excuse this in a male character. SAO was well received and had good reviews, it wasn't really until DigiNees review of SAO that the public opinion turned against it and even there I think, that it was really only possible because Kirits framing as a Black Swordsman commited a cardinal sin. But we also see how animes that are worse than SAO actually get a pass. Rising of the Shield Hero absolutely got a pass for political reasons, because of the whole fake rape accusation drama that gave it a reputation of being anti-woke and make culture warriors jump into its defense.
I really hate the "Everyone I dislike or disagree with is a incel/neckbeard/pick me/basement dweller without exception and only I and the people who agree with me have the correct opinions and are capable of thinking beyond (insert group bad)" mentality, like it somehow automatically dismisses or disproves any and all points the other side has made. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.. I swear, in this case some people will dismiss you as clinically insane for even trying to be neutral toward or even understand Shad in order to present in good faith.
Oh trust me, it gets even worse when you directly address Lily’s talking points. She’ll literally call you every label under the sun just because you point out something that she’s objectively wrong about. You call her out for basically making up an enemy to shadow box against, and she’ll say you’re only criticising her because she’s trans and you’re transphobic. She has no actual leg to stand on so she has to pick something out of the imaginary bubble in her head in order to deflect from actually responding to any and all criticism.
Right? I remember I saw her vid on The Coffin of Andy and Leyley and couldn't watch it for more than 2 minutes because of how staggeringly venomous every line she said was. I didn't even get to her actual point. I have no clue who tf is supposed to enjoy this content apart from literal demons who feed off negativity.
I get that people tend to misuse Mary Sue a lot when it comes to certain female characters, but that doesn't suddenly make the term invalid when it's necessary. There are female characters that perfectly fit that description, and denying that feels like pure cope from fans of those characters of types of characters.
@@jacobcain1352 Usually the worst examples are when a female character is more competent than a lot of other characters, even when they explain why they are competent thanks to being trained or having a skill that's unique to them alone like the main character from Prey or Hazel from the new FOP show.
@@kingbash6466 I wouldn’t be surprised if thats the case. I don’t really know enough about the examples given to really argue either point. But maybe you can answer some questions I have about prey. My first question is does she show the predator that she’s a worthy opponent? Predators only fight worthy opponents. My second question is how in the hell does she kill it in the first place?
When leftist commentators argue that certain characters are a product of "capitalism poisoning feminism" as Lily put it, they're not mad about minority characters being competent, they're complaining about studios having a very narrow view of how those minorities can succeed. Mary Sue characters push a very individualistic version of what it means to be competent: winning the day all on your own without struggling. But that's not realistic. It reinforces the standards for members of these groups to be exceptional. Power fantasy can be fun, but if social commentary or empowerment is the goal you need characters that face their struggles in a more realistic way.
Lilly gets everything wrong. Like she thinks a zombie being raised from the dead is a rape scene, because the necromancer didn't get consent. That's the zombie elf gal her wife keeps on drawing.
@@TrueReverse74 Nope its real. The death knight didnt even like her. He raised her because she was annoying and he was only ever in love for Jaina. Btw Sylvanas also raises people to the dead after she gets her free will back. She's complemented by a dread lord for being ruthless.
Few videos that I watched from her channel before never watching her again due to her being spiteful asshole who is full of stupid takes (Why is the main villian of LoK s1 holds Korra's arms when fighting her in a CQC enviroment?They must be sexist and racist. I don't know Lily, maybe because he is trying to defeat her by preventing her main method of bending because outside of that waterbending chick from s3 everybody uses their arms to bend the ELEMENTS!) I wondered why she hated the protaginst of Warcraft3 who later became tragic villian besides him being straight white dude whos hair is blonde.Honestly I should've seen this coming due to hers personality.
i wondered wth you were talking about but i see you were actually referring to her video about arthas. that was so off to me. because couple of victims of abuse and rape have said that it's an allegory for rape automaticallyy that means that it is? torture can't just be torture? a villain torturing his adversary with a fate worse than death (which is a common trope) is automatically a rape allegory? im sorry to those people but you're wrong. in fact it only honestly hurts your "case" worse by trying to liken things that are "similar" to rape as being exactly like rape.
"Mary sues are just a word dudebros use to hate women" would be a compelling argument! ....If it wasn't for that fact that if you knew a tinge of anime, you'd know that "Overpowered guy that's so good at everything and gets all the gurls" is such a hyper-scrutinized and criticized trope in animanga (so bad it turned alot of people off on the isekai genre; myself included) It's almost like people just don't like characters who have everything because they're so great and awesome and stuff
There IS a bit of sexism to it tho, since you’ll see ppl vehemently hate Mary sues. But Gary sues are defended as being childhood self insert power fantasies that are harmless. Theres def vitriol, but its a touch less. But it’s not about Mary Sues or Gary stus, It’s cuz it’s a girl’s interest and not boy’s. So self insert fantasies for girls are bad but self insert fantasies for boys are more acceptable.
@@ma.2089 1. I literally JUST mentioned how people have been vocally against Gary sues 2. I never denied there WASNT sexism; just that people use that as a scapegoat to deflect criticism It's easier to say that your opposition just hates women than to actually listen to the fair critiques they have For the record I don't believe any of that "Erhm woke!!!" crap. I judge a piece of media for what it is; if it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad There is no ulterior motive like some dudebros think there is.
I mean, Goku doesn't get nearly as much flack for being a Gary Stu as some female character get, but it is something that is a problem when writing any character.
You'd think Lily would have a better idea of what a Mary/gary stu is if shes doesn't spend 80% of her time only watching Steven Universe and my little pony lol
The thing with Clark is that he has all that power but underneath it all he’s still just a guy, the type of guy that would stop and help you fix your car or spends hours with a person who wants to hurt themselves.
Superman's real problem re: power is how ridiculous the scaling has to get for a villain to pose a physical threat to him; if anything, the 'being a good, responsible citizen despite this crazy level of power throwing that out of whack' angle works better for that reason.
At this point I'm convinced that Lily is rage baiting and considers any publicity to be good publicity. To me it feels like there's almost no other way around it.
It absolutely is just rage/troll bait. Orchard squandered any chance of being a halfway decent media critic after MLP Friendship is Magic went off the air and can only rely on deliberately pissing off huge fandoms for popular cartoons just for clicks and profit.
Well her UA-cam days are numbered, then. People only entertain that stuff for so long, unless you're ridiculously popular on the platform, and Lily doesn't even have half a million subs.
Another good quote about Mary Sues: "Reading a story about a Mary Sue is like reading about a hero whose reached the end of their journey. Or beginning the story where it should end."
After watching this video, I really question how Lily Orchid even has gotten this far in her youtube channel and still doesn't know what the "mary sue" discourse even means. It really stems from how the writers are so incompetent for making the characters we (as the audience) could root for and emphasize with. Instead, they make the characters tamper with in order for the plot to work for THEM. This robs any potential stakes or conflict off of the story, hence the term "Mary Sue." Do you see why Mary Sues don't fundamentally work in a story, Lily???
A lot of people intentionally misidentify the term 'Mary Sue' in order to dismiss criticism of their pet characters or their own bad writing. Whether somebody is doing so out of malice or ignorance varies on the person (and is usually a combination of both). A lot of times when somebody defends the Mary Sue, you'll find that they're basically just trying to shut up criticism: "Mary Sue is a sexist term, therefore the only reason you don't like the character/story is because you're sexist, therefore anything else you might say is also because you're just sexist, therefore my character is actually great." I think this video was published around the time Lily was working on her fanfic The Sith Resurgence, where her OC (a Dark Lady of the Sith who is the greatest Force user in the galaxy and has the coolest ship and is a super badass but also a precious blossom who has to be protected from big meanie-heads like Leia and pretty much wins the war against the First Order singlehandedly and becomes the new galactic leader and also marries Rey and and and) was accused of being a Mary Sue. You can probably figure out if this video had an ulterior motive.
@MmeCShadow Yeah, after looking into her cringy self insert based on the Star Wars. I can finally confirm this is just pure PROJECTION at its finest 👌
@@MmeCShadow TBH, the asinine reaction of "Oh, my character isn't such-and-such and is in fact great" can apply to beyond Mary Sues/Gary Stus. You'd be surprised how many have similar attitudes when defending Snyder's Superman, Anakin Skywalker from the PT and Kylo Ren from the sequels (both of whom were "conflicted" while committing mass murders/genocide with little-to-no redeeming qualities), and (of course) even RWBY characters. It's this cultist-like mentality that needs to purged from fandoms.
23:51 What I love most about this is that not only does he do this to revive his adopted daughter (the game's administrative AI in the form of a mob) but ... bro could have freed everyone from the game, or atleast try to. The narrative just completely ignores that possibility and nothing ever truly comes out of their relationship with their daughter until the NEXT season.
Lily's right that Mary Sues are fun when it's talking about OCs in fandom spaces. Kids making their OC be Princess Moonbeam Glitter is okay. It's fun. Whatever. It's an actual problem in real media. But she has it ass-backwards where she thinks Mary Sue is a term that's more acceptable to criticize children's OCs than real characters
"Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler's heart, kill your darlings." -Steven King, while not intentional this is a great way not to write a Mary Sue.
The more I think about Mary Sue's the more I've come to the conclusion is that the difference between a competent overpowered character and a Mary Sue is the actions of the other characters in the story. James Bond is probably my favourite example of a character who meets most definitions of Mary Sue but nobody hates. He's a total badass, he's smart, charming, good at everything, he always gets the girl, everyone likes him. But I've never really heard anyone call him a Sue, because well, setting aside how unrealistically good he is at everything, we do actually like him because he's well written. On the other hand Rey is probably the only big motion picture character who fits every definition of the Mary Sue. Especially if you consider the sequels as fanfiction of the original movies. We have a character insert who overshadows every other character in the story to a infuriating degree. In the Force Awakens she flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, prior to The Last Jedi Luke was the embodiment of hope, Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the sith, but the Rise of Skywalker takes that away. And that's why I don't have a problem with hypercompetent characters like James Bond but do have one with characters like Rey. The writers of the sequel trilogy were so hellbent on making Rey the best they literally had to spit on the most beloved characters of the original trilogy. They decided to shit on Han, Luke and Anakin in order to make Rey look good by comparison. The original Mary Sue was much the same way, she was more logical than Spock, a better leader then Kirk, a better doctor then McCoy. If your only way of making a character look good is by making other characters look bad, your writing is terrible. And to me that's the difference between Mary Sue's and well written OP characters.
I think something to note about James Bond is that there were times he was tricked or nearly got done in too, from my limited knowledge of the character. He was fallible. He wasn't perfect.
The thing with Bond and other similar characters is that they have to work and suffer for their success, they have q history and rich experience that lead them to being badasses. And Bond isn't the best at literally everything, for example lots of his success relies on gadgets made and designed by other people, so while Bond is overpowered, he doesn't overshadows other characters in their expert sphere
@@LordTyphAnd Rey is perfect? She spends most of the movies doubting herself and the last one almost falling to the dark side. Just because you think they didn't take it far enough doesn't mean it didn't happen. If she beat Palpatine without Ben's help I would see where people are coming from but that's not what happened. Anakin won a podrace and took out a space station as a todler, the Force can help you do a lot of things. Let's talk about Luke. In the first movie he has no agency. He says he wants to join the resistance but that doesn't play a role in the actual story as he never gets a choice. He gets attacked, is saved by Obi Wan, says he can't leave his uncle, and returns to his farm to find his family murdered, which means he has no choice but go with Obi Wan. They get on the Death Star by mistake, they escape to a planet about to be destroyed, and then he saves the day not because he choose to do so but because the narrative forced him to do so or die, never once did he have the option to escape, only Solo gets that. In the next movies he gets agency but now everything he does is correct. Sure, he got beaten for not finishing his training, but otherwise his friends would have died, and maybe he left his friends to fight the last battle all alone and went ham on his dad thus almost giving in to the darkness but if anything went differently it's possible Vader wouldn't redeem himself. I won't even mention Jabba's palace where every other character goes in to save Solo yet gets captured only making the situation worse only for Luke to go in and solve everything himself by brute Force with even Leia strangling Jabba only being possible because he distracted the guards. I don't much like the original trilogy. Really, even if Rey was Mery or Anakin was a Gary I would not care because I don't actually believe in bad writing. I either like something or I don't, and if I liked Luke I would not care about any of the above, I just think he's a wet blanket of a protagonist, thus any problem with him I notice gets exaggerated in my mind, which is I believe what actually happened to Rey for many people, because even though I am perfectly okay with Mary Sues, I still don't see it for Rey. One Punch Man and Mob are satire of other anime and superhero protagonists, but if they're satire that means the thing they are satirising actually happens even if to a lesser extent, right? For example, Goku. Nappa kills almost the entire cast? Goku comes in and doesn't even struggle, in fact he only struggles against Vegita who is even stronger than the one who beat the entire cast. Racoome? the same story. The rest of the cast can barely make Frieza feel pain? He makes Frieza take the form he never used before just to compete with him. He got Super Sayan, a form Vegeta tried so hard to achieve, from a bout of righteous anger for his friend dying, which while satisfying narratively satisfying to show caring about people makes you stronger than being out only for yourself still can be called unearned, and by the time he gets to Super Sayan 3 he can just achieve the form off screen because the narrative is no longer interested in how he gets the forms no one else can, with the reason this form is only possible to sustain if you're dead being more of a handwave. There is a reason "can he beat Goku" is a meme, yet no one calls him a Gary Stue.
Basically. Bad character traits can be ignored when the whole character is cool. See Saitama. Ignoring the fact that he is a flawed character (mad dumb, always late to fights, his brokenness is actually a problem for him) and automatically can't be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, he's funny and has some good character development. So people don't care about him being OP.
@@genyakozlov1316 I'm not sure where you've been on the internet but a lot of people call goku a gary stu. Or just too overpowered. That's like one of the main criticisms of dragon ball. goku and vegeta overshadow everyone else to the point where the other side characters like krillin, gohan, piccolo, and trunks barely matter.
I remember watching her Steven universe is terrible video and agreeing with her. However, after watching some people talk about the show in a positive light and rewatching her video, I kinda just came to the conclusion that young me (who wasn’t part of the lgbtq+ community at the time) only watched the show for the gem invasion stuff and skipped over most of the town episodes. I’m now pretty sure I didn’t appreciate the show for what it was, and while I could rewatch it with a different view I don’t have any plans to do so in the future.
Another one that I'm surprised Lily Orchard missed, and this is technically cheating here, is Corrin/Kamui from Fire Emblem Fates, I remember back in 2016/17 the entirety of the the Fire Emblem community, went against Corrin for being a guy/girl that could do nothing wrong, and everyone loves him, and everyone that doesn't is either purely evil, or possessed by someone who's purely evil. Hell, last year, people did the exact same thing with Alear from Fire Emblem Engage.
Fates had another character be the “killing blow” just to make Corrin’s hands clean of any bloodshed. Takumi had to possessed by an evil alzhiemer’s riddled dragon to hate Corrin and even then when Corrin “dies” it’s JUST there to establish “Takumi never hated Corrin” which is BULLSHIT. Hell, Hinoka takes Corrin killing half her family and causing irreparable damage to Hoshido as a country with a “it is what it is” mentality. Alear is just comical with the literal worship of being a divine dragon (they’re usually considered gods in the fire emblem world) and it infecting EVERY CUTSCENE with them introducing themselves cause we just HAD to be able to name Alear. Alear makes BEING a divine dragon in a series where they are worshiped lame.
With these kinds of people, they tip their hand in what they like about the character by what they attack you over the character on. "You don't like Rey cause woman!" means that Lilly's only thing she likes about the character is that Rey is a woman. If Rey was a guy, she'd likely be on the side complaining about the Gary Stu.
TBH, the whole "you don't like something because of X (whether it'd be a character's gender or supposed "conflict" or a story/character being "different")" is nothing really new. You'd see it from fans of SW (both pre-Disney and Disney SW alike), Marvel, Snyder's DCEU, Legend of Korra, etc. They tend to focus on some surface-level aspect and claim it to be deep (going as far as to make up some nonsense or take from third-party materials to fill in the big blanks left by poor storytelling), all the while ignoring the fundamental flaws. It really is a double-standard, especially when they then criticize something else which is as bad as the thing they defend (e.g. SW prequels and sequels fans criticizing Kylo Ren and Anakin respectively when both are bad characters).
I mean, you can like a character for being well-written, but have people dislike a character because of their gender or whatever. Han Solo was going to be a black guy, but they thought audiences would reject him for being black. Nothing about the writing of the character was going to change. Just the fact he was black.
@@StainedGlassLamp People like them because they're well-written characters. The show has a cast of really well-done characters, and they're among them.
I'm genuinely surprised anyone is able to argue with Lily in the comments, last time I stumbled on her channel she curated her comment section to a very noticeable degree.
Here's the thing people don't realize, there is no such this as a "semi mary sue" or a "half mary sue" or a "partial mary sue". There's no spectrum between not being a mary sue and being one. It's just either a character is a mary sue or not, and a character doesn't have to uber-powerful to be one. Like you said, Superman or Saitama aren't mary sues because their stories don't revolve around them to an excessive degree, they don't just have what they need to fix their problems. Rey is able use the force like a Jedi master without any prior training and she's as powerful/skilled as she needs to be to not fail, unlike Luke Skywalker which Reytards mistakenly call a mary sue. Simply saying Rey is a relative of Palpatine or Obi-Wan doesn't fix her issues. The narrative doesn't want Rey to suffer consequences and she always overshadows characters fans care about.
Did you expect sense or consistency from Lily? She complains about a character not getting enough screen time but then calls episodes that are in depth character explorations of them 'filler episodes' that did nothing.
The fact that Lilly put Rey as her third favourite Star wars character is extremly telling. Oh and the kicker she included legends. Kylo ren was her nr 1 hated character witch was basically the only consistantly good part about the sequles. Also Darth Maul was nr 2 most boring even with everything beyond ep 1. Truly s clown take. Oh yeah Lilly. Arthas is irredemable because he was mindcontrolled by frostmourn. Sylvanas isn't irredemable because she didn't have a part of her soul because of frostmourn. Even tough Sylvanas did way worse than Arthas even the very thing that he did to her. Smh.
So I've never read any of Lily's fanfictions and never will, but based on what I've heard from people on UA-cam, her stories are filled with Mary Sue. Like, all of her characters are either Mary Sues or Anti-Sues. The main characters do awful things like kidnapping, abuse, pedophilia, and incest, and these actions are either excused or portrayed as good. So this is probably why she defends Mary Sue. because she is a narcissist who is unable to accept that her storytelling isn't the best thing ever.
She actually said that Syndrome from Incredibles did nothing wrong. That he was the most competent character in the story and the best hero since he was able to defeat all the other heroes.
@@KaiserShounen ua-cam.com/video/GrKh88vMmzc/v-deo.htmlsi=clWKgi1N2NlIZpXz Start from the 7 minutes mark. I just re-watched a piece of it and she said that Syndrome's ends were benevolent and that The Incredibles were incompetent people.
@@avivastudios2311She does realize Syndrome committed GENOCIDE on the supers and going to let the Omnidroid attack the city ON PURPOSE so he can take all the glory, right? Even Mr. Incredible called him out with this line “You mean you killed off real heroes so that you could PRETEND to be one?” How does she missed that?
@@KaiserShounen. In my experience, sometimes, it's not Just about asking smarter, but someone else being smart enough to listen. Especially in the mlp videos, Lily sounded like someone who's exasperated at their peers for not asking those questions, and claimed only themselves see what's wrong with the full picture.
The mary sue seems to be a character that is a product of the mind of the kind of person that do not understand and/or is not aware of the "strugle to the path to mastery". Most people think that someone is talented when they are not aware of what the "talented" person went through to achieve such level of skill over whatever it is, and the writer of the mary sue think like that. This seems like a reasonable explanation to the fact that, more often than not, the mary sue comes atached to distaste of older characters, because they cant see their strugle to grow, and assume people admire them simply because they are man or white or both.
Honestly, I think that kind of mentality can apply not just to Mary Sues/Gary Stus. A writer could have a character struggle but still fail due to something inherently flawed with said character and/or struggle itself. An example could be Shiro Emiya from Fate/Stay Night (at least the anime adaptations) who is shown to struggle somewhat but there are inherent issues with his character that don't make him likable. The same applies to (at least, more recently) Izuku Midoriya from My Hero Academia who does struggle, but his character ultimately falls flat due to his power progression, self-destructive tendencies, and so on (much like Shiro)
To me, the Mary Sue is someone who can't be beat for any reason and comes in 3 flavours. Good: A Mary Sue who's established to be unbeatable and is fun to watch. Bad: A Mary Sue who's established as extremely powerful and sucks all the fun or tension away. Pure: A Mary Sue that breaks the rules for no reason.
@@KaiserShounen. Ever thought about covering the periphery media? Because so fare, Sonic and megaman share both nostalgia critic's ignorance, and a show made by man of action and wildbrain!
I am going to place ANYTHING critqueing "CULTURE WAR" as bad faith from this point on. Shad broke it down WELL anyone using "CULTURE WAR" as an argument simply is making a strawman to fight instead of their arguments. Same level as Lily and a BLACK MARK against them PERMANENTLY.
@@williamchamberlain2263 right so many licking his boots... are the boot lickers in the room with you? I swear those with Hate BONERS are so common today. Do you even know why you hate him or did you just listen to Anita Sarkessian that you must hate everyone that disagrees with you?
One of, if not the most hated character types is the “super OP young male that is super bland so that self inserting is as easy as possible” The Mary Sue is literally just a female version of that but with an obvious political background.
An example of a character I like who is borderline a Mary Sue. He is named "Saitama" In his anime heroes exist and everything. He does the impossible and breaks his Limiter over the course of 3 years and boom he's the strongest Hero in the world. Wait! Not hero but am. Strongest Man in the world. And the conflict begins. He becomes bored, loses the thrill in life he had before, doesn't pay attention to conversations as easily anymore, easily distracted, Yada Yada Yada. He basically is at his strongest PHYSICALLY but Mentally he's becoming weaker. He can get Serious. He could go from slumping over his shoulder almost loosely wearing his suit that makes him look goofy. To his ENTIRE body outlining everything across the Suit. Showing off his abs, his shoulders, his biceps, his legs. But he rarely gets serious because. What is there left for him to be serious about? Being a hero who does it not for Fortune and fame? Won't that get to him? A interesting Anime that I suggest watching. ESPECIALLY the Manga
@KaiserShounen It is. The action in later in the Manga. Mmmmmm. You'll drool over it. And you would understand us the few who looked at the season 3 announcement and wish the best for the animators who won't be sleeping for a few years
Ignoring Saitama suffering from success of being OP, the reason he isn't a Gary Stu is because he's an idiot. He's always late to fights, causing the first responders to get hurt. He somehow didn't know about the Hero League that ironically was founded because of him and had been doing his thing while gaining no recognition for it. He literally fails the written portion of the Hero exam, causing him to start as a C Rank while Genos was in either A or S Rank. He struggles to find work to actually get his Hero License until Sonic shows up to fight him. And even then, that's only after Sonic starts attacking innocents while the Tank Top guy is lecturing him. Which results in him gaining a reputation for basically killstealing, although he embraces this after the fish King fight so the other Heros don't get disrespected by the populace. For all his raw power, Saitama has little going on in the head, resulting in him doing a significantly worse job than he would if her were at least decently smart. His intelligence is his big flaw that counteracts his physical strength and keeps him from actually being a Gary Stu. The existential crisis also helps to make him an interesting character instead of just a gag.
@espurrseyes42 You're right. Thank you for saying the things I didn't say. For all that amazing strength it's balanced with a not so good intelligence. Just look at the Garou VS Saitama fight. His opinion of Garou's "Absolute Evil" was that he kept on saving people. Even though it was ALL unintentional. Hilarious tho
That whole theory you had at the end about Lily lying and knowing she's full of shit? You might be 100% correct. I recently stumbled across a reupload of one of her now deleted videos called "Little Mary Quite Contrary" from 2015-2016, and while she's still critical of the term's usage, she actually demonstrates an understanding of the problems with these types of characters (I.e. Plot bending to service protagonists). If I can find the video again, I'll send it to you but yeah, she's either gotten significantly dumber or more dishonest since the mid-2010's (my money's on both).
@@periodicpete There's actually two I wanted to send you, the other was what Little Mary was a remake of, being "Mommydagio Equals Alicorns" (which is rather infamous for revealing one of Lily's dirty little secrets but I digress). Hopefully you should find that one just as easily but if not, let me know and I'll send it to you. I think you should about both videos though to get the fuller picture.
Like when I want some fun with Mary Sues I just read a bunch of Chinese Manhwa with soap opera level writing, the Chinese sure love Mary Sue soap opera BS. Because sometimes you just wanna watch a train crash in slow motion. Like half of the time all the women other than the Mary Sue are unhinge psychos there to make the Mary Sue look better. I was telling my friend who is 1/4 Chinese about it and he was like "Yeah, no one hates other women more than Chinese Women." That was something I didn't expect to hear
25:15 I also wanted to point out an example of an overpower character done right and that is with sunraku from Shangri-La frontier. This is mainly just about people playing video games. The main character is a guy who specializes, completing the most broken incomplete glitchy games in the universe only to succeed at basically vr Elden ring because he has so much experiences with broken mechanics that he’s got good reflexes. But while character is strong he’s never overpowered. Moments in the series were outright loses, and I have to think of clever situations in order to slim by, when he goes up against Raiden, like that, he has to rely on other teammates because he can’t do as much damage as they can, when he plays outside in the main one, he is very skilled and people respect him for it, but he doesn’t always win. He’s antagonist very much so fun because while he is strong in his own way, he’s not absurdly broken. Top that off with a personality that makes you feel like he’s actually a gamer, and you got yourself actual good protagonist. Great video by the way just wanted to point out.
@@KaiserShounen The most you could say is him in Insomniac conveniently getting the perfect power he needs in a situation. Rhino too strong? Venom powers. About to get shot by Roxxon security? Here's some Camo. Getting beaten by Roxxon after he gets kidnapped? Venom Blast. That's about it though, and he has imperfections as a person that causes problems for him.
@@espurrseyes42 Not to mention, you could just say those aspects are just how superheroes tend to awaken their abilities. It's the conventions of the genre. Plus Miles still faces trouble despite all of his abilities.
There was a Gary Stu in Lord of the Rings: Tom Bombadil. He put on the ring to no ill effect and can basically do anything - usually while singing. There's a reason he's not in the Peter Jackson LOTR.
You're forgetting that in the books that Tom in spite of his great abilities, is a scatterbrain which would have made it really easy for the one ring to get back to saulron if the hobbits decided to give it to Tom.
Jackson movies don't feature talking animals either because they change the entire tone of the story to a dark and epic one, and thus while they are great movies they aren't actually great adaptations of the books, and this isn't a Forrest Gump situation where the unfaithful adaptation is better than the original either. If your critique says Tolkien's favourite character is bad writing then excuse me for not thinking it holds any merit at all. Don't get me wrong, Lord of the Rings isn't perfect, but Tom is definitely not one of its flaws. Really, I would love for people to stop trying to make good stories and just make what they want to make, because all flaws are subjective and there is no such thing as an objectively good story, nor a bad one. There are things you will never enjoy but there is nothing no one will enjoy, and art caters to everyone.
A side character can't really be a Mary Sue especially when they're in the story for one chapter. No matter how good they are they aren't going to be the one to actually resolve the conflict of the story so it probably won't hurt the narrative. They just show up to give some good advice and then they're off.
I'm gonna have to get you on Korra. No she didn't master the elements faster than Aang. She knew how to bend them as a toddler sure, but she didn't master them until after her constant training with White Lotus members (a luxury she has access to as the next Avatar because of the world her predecessor built), and still didn't have Air bending until the end of Book 1, which she struggled with the training of while Aang pretty easily handled and only struggled on the actual bending, which he got by the end of the episode he started training in. She also gets wooped a LOT. Her team doesn't beat those cheaters in the Probending League. She fails to stop the Equalists frequently. Amon specifically gave her lasting trauma even up to Book 3 where she sees his face while being mercury poisoned. She loses access to the knowledge and BS her past lives could give her (which, i don't consider that BS given how Aang on more than one occasion has gotten possessed by a past life, Roku actually fighting on his behalf in that case) when the Light Spirit was destroyed, and was mercury poison at the end of Book 3 going into early Book 4. And all of this is going on in a world that doesn't seem to the Avatar around, especially in Book 3, and while dealing with a shitty Love Triangle subplot between her, Mako, and Asami. It's kinda hard to call her a Mary Sue when she's anything but perfect and is constantly taking Ls. She's not that well-written, but a Mary Sue. She's not Rey, who struggles with next to nothing and doesn't have her flaws, if any, called out.
I think MangaKamen did a better job analyzing Korra’s character when he explained Korra is not a total Mary Sue but she has the traits of a Mary Sue at least from season 1-2.
One interesting different between Aang & Korra is how they initially think about being the Avatar due to their past: _ Aang was a teen & lost all his friends because he's the Avatar & the monks were going to separate him from his adopted father, people was putting pressure on him due to Ozai clearly building up power. Thus he saw it as burden he couldn't wait to get rid off _ Korra was a toddler (hasn't formed any bond beside with her family) & didn't lose anything, she was charmed by all the cool powers. And most importantly she was not pressured but instead pampered: The other Avatar had to go to each countries to learn bending(& the nations themselves), while Korra had teachers coming to her at the Southern Water Tribe instead(we saw her train fire bending at the South Pole & she knew only the very basic knowledge about the Earth Kingdom when she go there in SS3), Tenzin is the only exception(because he's the only Air master that can teach her but he has duties at the Republic City & can't leave for very long, so she had to go to him for training). So she is overly prideful of being the Avatar(she basically built her personality around it) & overconfident of her abilities despite knowing very little about her responsibilities * P/S: Korra did break some rule. For example, she already could use 3 elements before learning it. In TLAB, even if you had the talent, someone has to introduce the basic to you before you can start bending rudimentary(Aang didn't bend anything beside Air until he had basic instruction)
Writing many kinds of characters can be fun. However Mary Sues are not fun to write about either, because the narrative bends to give them what they want with little to no effort. After all part of the joy of writing is putting yourself in your characters place and imagining what they are going through, and having everything you want gets stale fast cause it means you have nothing to work towards. Even coffee shop A.U.'s have the stress of running a business to keep up with modern day expenses', even if that isn't the focus of the plot. A fun story can become as stressful as the writer wants it without the need to bend the rules of the story.
@@KaiserShounen Speaking from experience, I was 16 or 17 when I wrote my first KR fanfics and the main characters in those were more or less self-insert Gary Stus. Kinda glad I never wrote more than 10 chapters with them.
@@erikbihari3625 And I did. I've learned the severe problems with those fanfics. Over many years, I've made more mistakes with writing, have recognized them, and am trying to take steps to tell better stories to the best of my abilities. Just saying I'm glad I never did more (with those particular fanfics I've mentioned) because I probably wouldn't have improved otherwise.
Wait till Lily orchard hears about warhammer 40k. She's gonna go ballistic. She's not gonna handle the grimdark of this franchise. And she's gonna call humans the bad guys when really they are in the right for what their doing. Also blame Erebus.
I hate that Mary Sue is not being used to describe poorly written characters, but instead just overpowered characters. I've seen people call Grand Admiral Thawn a mary sue... Grand Admiral Thawn, a man who had to face the racial bias in the empire and push against the human supremacists to be a military leader is a mary sue?
It seems that Lily doesn’t do her research very well on the things she’s reviewing like Baldur’s Gate, World of Warcraft, Avatar, Star Wars and many others.
i always expect too much from lily orchard, i saw the mary sue video's title and thought she was going to talk about how the term originates from fanfiction and take a "cringe culture is dead" approach and discuss how mary sue ocs in fanfiction are harmless fun at the end of the day and people tend to blow things way out of proportion when it comes to how people write their characters. but i forgot this is lily orchard we're talking about and once again got bombarded with at least 60 of the worst takes i've ever heard a human being make
10:31 and let’s remind the audience that the starring moment of “be a man” wasn’t Mulan getting better but EVERYONE getting better. Mulan was just the smoking gun that started the domino effect on everyone’s improvement, the shining light proving that everyone can get better so everyone stepped up to the challenge allowing Mulan to earn the respect of even her comrades that initially had beef with her and eventually became some of her best friends/ally’s.
Gundam Seed is good? Admittedly, I haven't watched it, but I got my doubts. Anyway, as as guy who has read fanfics since I was a wee lad of 12, I can tell you there is A LOT of OCs (male and female alike--sometimes Japanese-ish) who hog the spotlight from the established characters. Sometimes, they're not even Mary Sues/Gary Stus, they're just badly written. Like you've said in the beginning, this stuff here is nothing new. In fact, the arguments supporting Mary Sues could be used for non-Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters who are just as bad, e.g. Bayformers' Optimus Prime, Snyder's Superman (and maybe the DCEU characters in general), etc. Not helped that favoritism can still exist for these characters. And the less I say about SW (pre-Disney and Disney alike), the better.
Your examples are bad, because at least bay-verse optimus doesn't bend the story to his will or get unnecessary wins, and snyder should've stuck to gahool, as he's really good at least that! Right everyone? Kaiser?
I strongly disagree with everything you had to say about Legend of Korra to the point where I wonder if we watched the same show. Don't get me wrong LOK has a lot of problems but Korra being a Mary Sue isn't one. In fact it's not even close. Korra doesn't learn the elements faster than Aang. Sure we see her throw some water, stone and fire in the opening scene but its mostly played for laughs and this is nowhere near the level one would need to be at to actually win a fight. Aang is 12 years old when the story starts (112 but iceberg years don't count.) and Korra is 17. By her age Aang had already mastered the elements. Korra has learned 3 pretty well and can't do anything with air. It takes her an entire season to do any airbending at all. About Korra mastering the Avatar state. Aang learned how to control the Avatar state from guru pathik. He let go of his attachment to Katara under Ba Sing Se and entered the avatar state. Then he was struck by lighting and was ohysically blocked from entering the avatar state. This is explicitly stated in the show that its his ohysival wound thats preventing him from entering the Avatar state and when that pointy rock hits him he unlocks it. (I know its one of the dumber parts of the show but that is what happens and the point is that this criticism doesn't work because he did learn the avatar state.) As far as Aang teaching her to use energy bending. There is some validity to the idea that past avatars teaching you abilities undermines the premise of the show. And Aang showing up at the end of season 1 is definitely kind of an ex machina but where I think this critisisms falls flat is the fact that energy bending wasn't an ability that Aang had to learn wither. A lion Turtle touched his forehead and he could just do it. Learning bending just seems to be a more involved thing and Energy bending seems to be a thing that is bestowed on someone. And Korra is far from a character without flaws. She struggles with the spiritual side of being the avatar, she gets tricked by people, she loses her powers and suffers from PTSD. If anything the problem with the story seems to be that she's often underpowered and its frustrating watching a show where shes constantly getting her butt whiped, and struggling to deal with her own past failures. Also I know we see Toph use her seismic sense to discover metal bending, but its never established that that is the only way to metal bend. Just like its never established that you have to learn firebending by holding a burning leaf or meeting a dragon. Just because thats how one character learns it doesnt mean it's the only way. Since we have no way of knowing what the physical/ mental feeling of bending an element is like we can't really say whether you need seismic sense to telepathically connect your mind to the minerals inside of metal. If the show says Toph saw it with her seismic sense but you can just be taught that its made from refined rocks and focus your mind on moving the ricks that are in there then we kind of have to go with that. Its ridiculous to tell the show creators that's not how it works, and I don't see why thats any harder to believe than the fact that they're telepathically moving rocks in the first place. Silly argument.
Metalbending works because of the unrefined earth still present in it. Which is why Platinum and other "Pure Metals" can't be bent. You're not bending them metal. You're bending what's inside the metal. It's akin to bloodbending, sans the fact that I'm pretty sure there's more water within blood and more blood in the human body than there is unrefined earth in a slab of metal. Theoretically, you don't need Seismic Sense to metalbend. You just have to know that there's earth in the metal similar to how bloodbenders know there's water in the human body. That being said, if normal waterbenders need the full moon to bloodbend, it's not a stretch to say that Seismic Sense to detect EXACTLY where the earth is would have to be required for metalbending unless you're just "built different" like Yakone's family. TLDR It's theoretically possibly to metalbend without SS, but if a comparable special bending art requires special conditions to use, there's no reason the same shouldn't apply to metalbending, requiring SS to properly detect where the earth in the metal is that you're bending. It just makes sense, and there's been nothing shown disputing this. You can fix this issue easily by establishing that SS isn't a prerequisite, but just very useful, or just showing that Korra learned SS as part of her Earthbending training.
Very nice discussion. I probably like Lily Orchard’s content more than most people here but this critique is on point and is one of the most concise and clear definitions I have seen on the topic of Mary Sues.
Actual research,every appropriate amount of information,appealing presentation,working comedy. My friend, just earned yourself a new subscriber! How you so good for an upstart?
Lily wants to say we're wrong for calling out women written poorly by men, yet also call the film industry sexist. If she actually cared she'd argue the reason these characters are Mary Sues is because of sexism. She doesn't care about anything but being a toxic hipster.
I've heard it best that "Mary Sue" isn't some kind of character description or character specific trope, it’s a *writing* flaw. In bare bones it’s critical of how the writer is doing their job. Not any kind of weird judgment of actions made by a non-existent human that isn't and will never be sentient beyond their writer. Lily dumb. And she really doesn’t grapple with the concept that men are writing some of these Hollywood Sue characters, huh. You'd really think that would've been a topic for a good ol' rant about her f-ed up ideas. Can totally see her doing a "if you aren't x gender/other thing, then how dare you write them as the leads in your stuff"...
Watching your video was quite the fun, Kaiser. Both you and Pete had put a lot of effort in the video. And I meant a lot by stating, why I haven't watched SAO. And here I thought, that Issei from Highschool DxD was a Gary Stue, majorly because he is not only overpowered, but also gets powerups by thinking of touching boobs. If I still have to choose, I'd hate Kirito more, because he is not a character. At least with Issei, they tried to do something. And one of the stuff I heard about Highschool DxD, is that it is more than just story, filled with boobs.
Thank you all for enjoying the video. Me and Pete had a lot of fun working on it. That said, please do not harass Lily, Misgender her, or make transphobic comments. Really appreciate it.
well just so you know lily did make Stockholm by lily orchard look it up itll be a blast for ya
Oh Im familiar with shit relating to that crap.@@darkman452
*KEEP BEING AWESOME*
@@KaiserShounen can ask what did ment with this part 6:31 ?
@@dedalionarts6077 Was there something that confused you there? I said that Shadversity called the film feminist propaganda.
I find it weird that Lily considers "being black" as something people use to label a character a Mary sue.
She sees racism where there is none and now she looks racist.
Weirdly telling, IMO.
Ironically, I don’t even think she’s necessarily wrong, more like Lily’s just telling a half truth with that point. I’ve seen genuinely racist people hate on black characters for simply being black, but call them Mary Sues for it? That I have yet to see.
@kyleinthejar6829 yeah, I don't think that's as common as Lily thinks it is.
Uh, haha, *WHAT.* I've literally never seen a race as a reason to call someone a Mary Sue. Literally never have seen that, what a hot take. People usually use the character getting everything they want, they don't have any real conflict, everyone usually loves them, and distorts reality to do all the above to define a Mary Sue, not...their race lol.
Llily Orchard thinking that is wacky, what even. Girl is talking about how the trope is sexist but then randomly made it about race?
There was an episode of Kamen Rider Kuuga with a scene that used Lily's idea of a Mary Sue, someone giving en enemy a one-sided beatdown, and it worked because it was played for horror. The titular character was so enraged by a villain heartlessly murdering dozens of high school students for a sick game, he outright snapped and ruthlessly beat up the villain so much, right before he killed him, the villain was trying to run away from the hero.
This scene works because it while it was cathartic to see this child murderer get his comeuppance, it also served as a shocking moment highlighting just how dangerous Kuuga himself is when he isn't fighting for justice is, in addition to contributing to the show's central theme about the cycle of violence. Yes, Kuuga easily killed the villain, but it was because he was in a dark state of mind that is very concerning to see from someone who is usually an optimist that fights for everyone's smiles.
Lily is someone who believes that any problem can be solved with violence, which is an idea that is factually incorrect, both from a writing standpoint and a real world standpoint. Then again, this is the same person who's Star Wars OC is more than willing to murder whoever gets in her way, and is supposed to be the good guy.
Moral of the story: Kamen Rider Kuuga is peak fiction.
Godai's overpowered aspects enhanced the story whereas those like Captain Marvel make it worse. But as far as Lily is concerned, both of these characters are the same, so its ok.
An utterly worthless sentiment.
Basically in a nutshell, Lily thinks the genocide route in Undertale is the ¨True Ending¨ lol and anyone who argues otherwise are somehow supporters of that one dead evil german man with a tiny mustache.
@@Flowermations Supporting genocide in stories? Must've gotten that from the SW prequels.
I remember one video she made where she basically said, "If you don't think violence is the solution, then kindly fuck off from the grown-ups table."
She lacks self-awareness so much that cannot see how childish that is.
Ah, a cultured Kuuga enjoyer I see.
"Be Media Literate or draw 25"
Lily: *Draws the whole deck and buys 25 more decks*
Lilly wrote Stockholm.
That's all the reason to not take her seriously on anything.
What's Stockholm?
Don't read it.
No, really.
Don't read it.
For anyone who’s deadly curious, Stockholm is a My Little Pony fan fiction (which Lily admitted to writing in the past and is now desperate to distance herself from it) which consists of a whole lot of incest, pedophilia, grooming and any other degenerate filth you can think of. Most of the plot consists of a mentally deranged Rainbow Dash taking advantage of and grooming her own family member. I haven’t properly read it myself (thank fuck for that), but definitely do not go and seek it out, it’s fucking horrid that this was ever even conceived in the first place 🪦
Can you at least give me a TL;DR version of what it is. I'm honestly too lazy to even look it up myself 😅
@@DSmith3279 I can give you the barest of bones: My little pony but rainbow dash is a child molester, twilight is abusive to her oc wife that was the MC of a mlp fangame where you colonise ponyville and can see pony cp and pony incest. other things in the fic are incest between sweetie bell and rarity, the cutiemark crusaders shame one of their own for getting molested, written out scenes of children engaging in sexual activities with other children and adults, excusing domestic violence and encouraging it to continue.
there are also other fics in this series of fanfiction. one which is mlp lolita but the pedo groomer wins mostly.
there's more shitty things in her fics outside stockholm. none I'd recommend reading, she's not a good writer she's just a interesting one (in seeing a dumpster fire).
I'd faster recommend you read Mad K in front of your mother, out loud. and trust me: that won't end well either
@@DSmith3279 it's a fic where rainbowdash from my little pony has a penis and rapes the child character scootaloo. The story justifies this and the two end the story in a romantic relationship.
This is the TLDR, I couldn't begin to talk about every messed up part without taking up like 5 comments
@@DSmith3279It's a My Little Pony fanfic with tons of messed up stuff like ped@philia and inc@st, at least I think
Terrible Writing Advice has also done a sequel video on "how not to write a Mary Sue" where he details that his definition nowadays is "a character that hurts a story through excessive favouritism from the author". I think that's a useful definition as well, especially when he points out that many traits are only symptoms, not the disease itself.
What I've seen a lot of in the Mary Sue debate is co flating Power Fantasy Characters as Mary Sues. Superman is a classic example. For all extensive purposes, Superman is a complete character. He is already morally upright and has developed his powers and abilities. Yet Superman still struggles, still has narratove stakes and still has to work within the confines of his setting. You also have James Bond who is ostensibly the perfect man. Every guy wants to be him every gal wants to be with him. James Bond does not bend and break the rules of the setting. He doesn't destroy narrative stakes. Out of Character, or Deus Machina moments don't save him. He doesn't just get a super power, or pull out a gadget Q never gave him. While he as a characters doesn't need to grow. He still can be in danger, his story still has narratove stakes. Power Fantasy can be good. Mary Sue is always bad.
Use her logic against her and put a mary sues in the WOW story. A cool new shadow elf that become a leader of the horde, heals Sylvana Windrunner, kills a Arthas that somehow returned and everyone loves her.
Given what I've heard about her SW fanfic, it wouldn't surprise me if she wrote something like that.
What does Lily Orchard understand at this point?
Fart huffing. She seems to be an expert in that field.
Gonna be honest here I used to watch Lily years ago and thought that she was someone what was speaking some fact... now that i am older and know proper story telling and has seen the state of the internet and the levels of strawmaning happening. I really don't know how I ever thought anything she was saying credible. God her old Vids were bad.
I remember Baalspawn. Through The Fiery Joker.
for me a Gary/merry sue is a Character who is borderline perfect in almost every single way, makes no mistakes or if they makes mistakes they don't suffer any real consequences from them, they bend or brake the rules of there established setting on a regular basis. overpowered with very little rhyme or reason
outside of there their special. never undergo any change or character character development because there perfect the way they are, and they are popular and well loved even though there is no reason given or shown why they are liked.
can you have a character who is borderline perfect? you sure can. the anime Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto had that as it's plot, with characters reacting to how borderline prefect Sakamoto is. can you have a character that beads or brakes rules of an established setting? yes. many battle shounens do have characters that do bend or brake rules to a certain degree, because there the exception that proves the rule.
can you have a character that is overpowered? yes and you even tell many interesting story with an overpowered character, for example tell the story about how there power isolates them from human society. on it's own having a character with these aspects is fine. however what really makes a character a gary/merry sue for me is that they have no depth to them or not much of a personality outside of "Holy shit look how powerful they are"
I am always happy to see Lily orchard be shit on !
OBJECTION!
No demon in their right mind would EVER want to go inside her head!
Got to say great video but I have an issue about Kirito. He doesn't fit being a Mary/Gary. To start he isn't some genius level programmer. It's never stated or shown to be the case. We do know that he has built his own computer and was a beta tester which neither would require high level programming. Kirito is indeed a skilled player but also so are people like Asuna who are just as good as him. All the women don't pine for him. By the end of the Aincrad arc he's married to Asuna. None of the girls had a crush on him except for Liz but she quickly stopped after seeing him with Asuna. As for Suguha his cousin there's missing context. First she didn't know the player was her cousin/brother since it was 2 years after what happened in SAO. After she finds out the player was Kirito she quickly stops after her "romantic" feelings became sibling feelings. They have a normal sibling relationship. He didn't hack into a complex AI. Yui was an admin that gave Kirito access to the game files where He copied Yui's code into an Item and the copying that to his personal computer. Blocking Bullets is a mix of factors. His Kendo training did help but also he has good reaction speed plus like all vet SAO players their stats were carried over to GGO. The sword he uses the Photon Sword which is designed to interact with bullet lines which helps him defect bullets. There's a lot of game mechanics that go into Kirito defecting bullets. Kirito loses his 1st fight with Kayaba with their 2nd fight barely being a draw. Kirito is nearly killed by Kuradeel being saved by Asuna. Those are a few fights that come mind with him losing major fights. He never willed himself to live in a death game. It was established early on that there's a delay in dying in the game and the headset killing you. Not including the fact it was always shown you fade away slowly which gives you time. Kirito was hit with an adrenaline before he died giving him that final strength to make the fight a draw. This is no different than any other story where they do this.
Naofumi is a Gary Stu? But he goes through literal hell throughout season one. He gets his most powerful abilities because he thinks he's losing everything. He hurts those he loves while using this power and can only get out of berserker mode when his closest loved one puts herself in danger and realizes his mistakes. He's flawed as hell.
6:32
I mean…
It is propaganda.
Can’t fault Shad for pointing it out.
My God, the comments on the original vvid. I lost braincells.
It's full of people who focus on the spectacle of a character rather than the reason people get invested: good writing.
Wouldn't be surprised if most of them are Kirito fans.
Here from Sai's server my dude. Good vid 👌
24:54 Also for a good comparison look at Kirito vs his SAO abridged parody counterpart.
The thing about her is that she made Ascentia, who was so bad that there was a game made with her by Lily and it turns out that illegal things were on there and Ascentia was pretty much the same as her Sith OC, only I'm pretty sure she got recycled by the looks of it.
Also you can make a Mary Sue but the thing is, you have Mary Sues mainly by the writing being forced to appeal to the female character. Then again, that is all Lily is known for: forced atrocious writing.
Sweet! Another fellow Mega Man fan! Where all my Megas at?
Hmmm, I almost completely disagree on the Korra assesment.
1-It is never implied that Past lives can outright teach the current Avatar how to bend an element. Aang simply restored Korra's bending which she already had learned on her by that time. The problem here is actually the fact that she masters the Avatar state here, I agree on that.
2-Neither show implied that seismic sense was NECESSARY to Metal Bend. Toph learned it that way, and she taught Aang how to do the seismic sense. Furthermore, did you guys pay attention when Korra learned Metal-bending? By this point in the era the show takes place, techniques for teaching metal-bending have developed. They use a special metal that is easy to bend to teach beginners, and that's precisely what happens with Korra, also Suyin instructs her that she must concentrate and feel the fine traces of earth to bend the metal. And if that isn't enough, we see Korra training the entire Zaofu arc, she even struggles to open a metal gate. Now, if you'd tell me she knowing metal-bending made her overpower you may have half a sound argument... but it's not even close, if the writers wanted her to be unstoppable Korra would've learned blood-bending, lava-bending, or even lighting-bending (which is more lethal than metal-bending if done properly). To end this point, Korra doesn't even use Metal-bending that much, she showed throughout the entire show to be a rounded fighter and she didn't put an element over the other.
3-The Raava issue. Simple, it isn't actually an issue. By definition it is a retcon, but almost every single sequel in entertaining media does that. We can use the same logic on a lot of recognizable and well received products and that doesn't mean it was bad. Shrek 1 to 2, Far Far Away was never mentioned or alluded to in the first movie, not even by Fionna who is from there. Are you going to tell me it is an issue that Shrek 2 has an issue from basing its plot on a kingdom that wasn't mentioned before? Star Wars Episode 4 to 5, Obi Wan told Luke Darth Vader killed his father, but in this movie Darth Vader reveals he was his father. One of the most iconic moments in cinema history, and it wasn't planned since the production of the first movie, the writers simply thought it would be a cool twist when producing the sequel. See? This argument falls apart easily, and if the issue is "it contradicts what ATLA established." Then, you're wrong again. Roku only said "the skill and knowledge of previous Avatars is passed into you", and Katara and other characters talked about an "Avatar Spirit". So what Raava does is making a bridge between the past lives and the current one, while also explaining why that is even possible in the first place.
4-Liar! Korra didn't master the elements faster than Aang in the slightest. By the time we meet her she can control 3 elements but she stills undergoes training to master those 3 elements when she's 17. It is already implied by the very first episode that she's rarely allowed to go outside, and later seasons made this a plot-point, Korra literally stayed secluded completely focused in training until she was 17, which by the way, explains why her self-identity relies on her being physically proficient and being the idolized Avatar figure she has in her head. Korra then learns airbending, and did not master it until season 3. Now Aang was LITERALLY 12 when he mastered air-bending, he mastered water-bending in around 6 months, and learned the other 2 elements in that same span of time. Simple, math, if Aang could learned an element in 6 months he mastered all four elements at 13 years old. And that's being generous, but if we still say that he might've still struggled with earth and fire due to his pacifistic nature and doubled the time, then Aang would've been around 14 and 15 years old. Your statement on Korra learning faster than Aang is a blatant lie.
5-Seriously? You think the show is portraying Aang as a "horrible" father just because he wasn't a perfect parent? Even when the characters themselves say how much they loved him, even the resolution of that plot line was all three siblings saying "what a happy family"? My God, this is just unjustifiable, so not sorry for saying this but, amigo you're pendejo. Pay attention before opening your mouth or else you risk saying pendejadas/bullshit like this. Also, wow! The character that grew up without parents, who lost his entire community at 12 and had to become independent that early in life, and who was comprehensible very concerned with preserving his culture turned out to be an imperfect parent.
Finally, you contradict yourself when you say "If a character is physically powerful, then you put internal struggles to balance it out". Well guess what? That is precisely what they do with Korra. S1-Korra deals with the fear of loosing her identity as being the Avatar is all she knows and values in her self-perception. S2-Korra deals with respecting spirituality and being more patient. S3-Korra actually doesn't have an arc here, but showcases her growth from the previous seasons and suffers the catalyst for he arc in S4. S4-Korra deals with trauma, and falls back into the perception of not being needed. Furthermore, with exception of S1, Korra suffers consequences from her actions and external conflicts in the plot. So, all of this falls under the statement you made, but you still label Korra as a mary sue based on assumptions, flawed arguments, and a blatant lie.
Pongase trucha gringo, o sino mejor no habra el hocico.
1: In doing so, Aang taught her energy bending as well. So yes, technically the past Avatars can bestow gifts onto current Avatars. And yes the Avatar State stuff as well.
2: It actually 'is' implied by the visuals and Guru Pathik's explanation. He talks about the impurities in the metal as Toph is using her seismic sense to find them, which allows her to feel them in the metal and eventually make them bend as well. I won't argue on the training metal because I don't know enough about it, and it honestly just reminds me of the space earth from A:TLA with how malleable it was with Toph bending it. I won't touch on the Bloodbending / Lavabending either, since we're focusing on Korra specifically, but the Bloodbending in season one was outright BS.
3: The thing about Raava being a retcon is that it doesn't fit with its own story still. It destroys the base which Korra used to build itself up. Just because other media does it doesn't make it a good thing, especially when destroying your own canon for the show, even if we specifically talk about Korra and not even A:TLA, but I will include A:TLA, since TLOK specifically relies on A:TLA to function. "In the era before the Avatar, we bend not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." is changed to. "We get our bending from the Lion Turtles, but a magic kite needs to be inside of someone to make them use more than one." That rips asunder all the issues that happened in A:TLA And TLOK season 1, and the reincarnation cycle. Also, those examples aren't comparable to a retcon at all. A retcon is changing something from a previous form of media to function differently in the new form of media. In Shrek 1, Far Far Away isn't brought up, but it does nothing to affect the plot of Shrek 2 to bring it up then. If it was mentioned in Shrek 1, nothing would have changed about the story. Obi Wan telling Luke that Vader killed his father is PART of the story, not a retcon. Obi Wan was intentionally trying to get Luke to kill Vader because he is evil, and if Luke found out he was his father he was worried Luke wouldn't go through with it. That's literally explained in episode 6. Even if it isn't planned it isn't retcon. Now, if you wanted to argue that Luke kissing his sister before finding out that oh so little secret is a retcon that's fine, but building the story as you go and even adding things to the story as you go, as long as it doesn't affect the previous parts of the story, isn't a retcon. The Avatar Spirit and Raava are two completely different things and can't truly exist together.
4: I won't argue on the wording they used, since they mispoke when talking about Korra 'mastering' the elements at the age of 4, but even then did you see that opening scene? She still 'LEARNED' faster than any bender in history, knowing the motions, movements, fluid execution and elements of three bending properties at the age of 4, able to shoot fire onto his coat and immediately put it out with just enough water to make both the fire and water evaporate? Yeah no she may not be a 'master' but she damn well knows how to bend those three elements the same way Aang could bend water and earth when he was able to finally learn how to. Aang had a natural affinity to water and fire, and struggled hard with earth, but he still needed to learn the motions and techniques to bend earth, his natural opposite. So by the logic of the show, Korra shouldn't be able to bend fire, if not very well, but here we are at the age of FOUR, with her bending away as if she's done it for quite some time.
5: Yes, they did. They really laid into Aang's parenting skills. Yes they loved each other, that's how all family dramas come to a conclusion outside of cutting ties with horrible family members, but yes they really liked to emphasize how much time Aang spent with Tenzen and not the others because they weren't airbenders. We aren't saying he could have issues being a dad in the future, but the show really wanted to say Aang was bad at it.
6: You are correct as to what they did with Korra, but the stakes aren't really that big in the grand scheme of things. In A:TLA, if Aang fails, the world is doomed, in TLOK season 1, if Korra fails... she doesn't get to be the big hero anymore? The lessons from the other seasons are lessons she should have learned earlier anyway, patience was what she needed to learn Airbending, but she just magically unlocks Airbending because the plot needed it. The trauma should have been given to her post spirit whipping Raava took to delete her past lives from existence, and in every season she suffers from the consequences of her own actions,. she just seems to fail upwards. Everything keeps going right for her despite her being wrong or losing, she never makes a single mistake that has consequences she has to account for until season 3. So for the first two seasons, we can safely call her a Mary Sue. I'd argue in season 3 and 4 as well, but that's not what they're arguing, so I won't speak on their behalf.
I'm not into fish much myself, thanks.
I saw a world trigger clip. Best video 10/10
interesting fact, the Gundam clip you used was actually from Gundam Seed Destiny, the sequel series to Gundam Seed
but this is a nerd thing, my bad. Proceed Kings.
Ah, my poor isekai anime... Why, why does every new title become a power fantasy, why must characters reach their peak before the end of episode one. Can they not understand the charm of another world is in the experience, not the urge to rule it, and with such an emphasis on game -like worlds, should it not be obvious... A game is a challenge to overcome, you start from nothing and grow, even peaceful games work that way. And yet these anime treat a sense of growth or overcoming challenge as something to avoid
Korra took way too many Ls to be considered a Sue.
That isn't her girlfriend it's her wife
I like lilly and when She have good points there good but when there bad there realllllllllly bad
You lost me when u called Korra a Mary Sue💀
She's not, but she definitely showcases traits of one.
@@espurrseyes42No she doesn't. Not even a little bit. Legend of Korra is a show with serious issues but Korra being a Mary Sue isn't one of them.
And he's wrong about just about everything he said. First of all saying she mastered the elements faster than Roku is irrelevant because Aang mastered all 4 elements by the age of 12, and it was in one summer. Sure we see her throwing some rocks, water and fire around as a toddler but it's mostly played for laughs. sure she has a natural affinity for bending elements but her ability is far from dangerous at that age it's more of a nuisance. By 17 she's mastered 3 elements and it takes her an entire season to even start to airbend. Also she learned the Avatar state at 17 Aang learns it at 12 but he gets struck by lightning at his injuries block him from being able to use it. And she's like mediating constantly and trying to get spiritual so even though she doesn't have to train with a guru to learn it it isn't as though it comes all that easy to her and even she gets blocked from using it later in the series so it seems like a pretty weak criticism to me. She's certainly a prodigy but I don't think her progress in the series blows Aang out of the water or anything.
But none of this even matters really. She's been training for years with masters and if they had wanted to start her as a fully realized Avatar they could have because what really matters is her emotional development as a character, and she needs plenty of growth there.
For one thing at the start of the show she's impulsive, doesn't listen to people, is overly sure of herself, she's impatient. And the story doesn't exactly reward her for it either. She gets her butt kicked several times and she starts out being pretty bad at pro bending. She is also pretty bad at relationships because she has a hard time talking about how she feels. Later on in the series she struggles with PTSD and feels like she can't do anything right, and is afraid to let her friends help her. She's about as far from a Mary Sue as you can get.
@@nathanjasper512
"No she doesn't. Not even a little bit."
>Starts the series bending everything but Air as an infant.
>Conveniently learns to Airbend right after she loses her other elements and Mako is about to lose his bending, allowing her to turn the one-sided stomp against her around and take out Amon.
>Spirit Aang shows up to give her bending back + Avatar State (Aang learned this at 12 because he found a master to help him achieve the spiritual enlightenment required to willingly use it, aided by his already high spirituality as an Air Nomad, don't take this out of context to defend Korra literally being handed it on a silver platter) + Energybending to undo the harm Amon did.
>Loses the Avatar Spirit, but then somehow syncs up with the Tree the evil spirit was sealed in to have a Giant Spirit Avatar battle with her uncle, reviving the Avatar Spirit and beating the Dark Avatar despite how much weaker she should be compared to him.
Yes, she does have Mary Sue traits. But she's not a Mary Sue. What with all the times she struggles with things from Airbending to social & political stuff, getting beaten by enemies frequently, the PTSD from Amon, and the Mercury poisoning.
In fact, in regards to the first trait, it makes sense for her to already know all the elements besides Air and have her training sped through given that the world is at peace thanks to Aang's efforts prior. The war is over, Republic City exists as a place where people from all nations live in harmony (allegedly), and the White Lotus is around to protect and train her so she doesn't have to journey the world and constantly be in danger like Aang was. She had an easy start because of her predecessor's efforts so we could get straight into Airbending training we didn't get from Aang (since he had it by default), and more importantly, get into how she'd handle all the new social and political issues and new conflicts of the new world. Her early bending, in context, isn't a Mary Sue trait, and is perfectly justified.
Doesn't excuse the rest of the traits that she most definitely has, but she's by no means the perfect angel that can do no wrong and can get nearly everything done herself you expect from a true Mary Sue.
one of you sounds like her on a Alt
Also i mean shad and conservatives liking a male lead like miles morales despite Miles potentially being a Gary sue
is not that hard a concept, they only have an issue with that when it’s females cause that’s woke feminist to them,
meanwhile people like Yellow Jacket had problems with miles being spider-man cause he’s not white and has openly said that.
Then why do these same people like Arcane or Blue Eyed Samurai or other shows/movies that have female MC's made today?
@@KaiserShounen 1. Cause they are popular, and nothing makes you look like a loser more than hating on something that is widely popular
that’s also why critical drinker and those kind guys did multiple videos attacking House of the dragon, and Fallout before they came out
then when they did come out and were massively popular across the board, all those hate videos ended
and you can tell it was because of how popular they were, because none of those people who supposedly are all about media, did any videos celebrating or talking about those shows
i think critical drinker admitted on vid or social media that fall out and etc was a good show
but he never made any content about it hyping it up, analyzing it, not like he does his anti SJW and anti woke vids
2. These people are not consistent, it’s either grift, or it’s so vibes based that they go off how the individual media makes them feel
that’s why they can like a bad ass female character in one show, and then do 30 videos about how the Barbie movie is abomination and trying to ruin culture cause of the feminist message etc. etc.
@@mckenzie.latham91 I don't know much about these creators but if that is the case, Lily should have done a better job establishing that their standards are inconsistent. Plus its hard for me to believe they don't actually believe that the shows they don't talk about aren't critically good and they just so happen to luck their way into celebrating them. If anything, it would be more profitable to make several videos shitting on Arcane or calling it woke than saying it was good and an example of what stories should be. The attention that would get would eclipse any Barbie video.
@@KaiserShounen I don’t defend Lilly, i just thought the reasoning why Shad can’t be called out as a anti-womanist (despite saying a lot about women that qualifies as such)
Was bad evidence on its own assurance.
As for the rest of that
Once again, they can’t make hate videos about popular media because then you look like a hater and a loser
this is part of the right wing culture war content, where they think having more likes, subs and clicks means you are inherently more right
attacking popular media is bad for their image (crapping on Arcane would get you negative publicity where people would be asking WTF is up with you and or would think you are an idiot with no media analysis)
and it is worse for their ideology that everyone hates wokeness so much, that that’s why everything woke dies
only to then have “woke” content succeed. They can't draw attention to “woke" content that is popular because it hurts their rhetoric.
thats why they will never talk about how great these shows are, or analyze the message of these shows
and if they do it’s always somehow different from other woke content, for reasons that don't hold up to scrutiny
and yes if you are media critics, or analysis channels then you naturally will do analysis of vids you like as well as dislike
I’ve consumed a lot of video essays and internet content and what i’ve seen is
People who like Beserk, talk about berserk and how great it is, or analyze what messages it has and things it does right
People who love lord of the rings, make videos about how great lord of the rings is, or analyze what messages it has and things it does right
People who like Marvel talk about how great marvel is and, analyze what messages it has and things it does right
If you think these things are great, you usually cover them, and not make no content on them, or jsut hate them.
Yet these guys only talk about how woke something is, or how bad it will be cause it’s woke
or how much wokeness ruins the story etc. etc.
@@mckenzie.latham91 Didn't Drinker these other creators also make videos on shows they liked and stuff occasionally? Im pretty sure he had nothing but good to say about his Arcane reviews.
Idk if I could say whether or not someone makes content about the things they like is an indication of grifting. It all depends on the content they wish to make and how accurate their assessment is. I like JJK but I'm going to make more content shitting on RWBY because I enjoy doing that more. I made one video on why I liked Kingdom Hearts. Does that make me less of a fan or more likely to be a grifter because I only made one video? I would say no because my argumentation for both is highly consistent. That should matter way more than whether they made one video of this or 40 videos of that. I honestly don't care unless they're inaccurate. Otherwise, anyone who isn't right wing that has similar ratios of content would fall under that banner.
But again, its hard for me to argue whether or not this is the case because I don't watch these people.
Look I'm above not slamming sword art online! {also I thought that was his sister not cousin? Then again it would have been OK in the South I can make that joke for a lot of reasons} I can kind of disagree with you on ray and definitely on Carol! But there's more reasons why Sword Art Online is terrible because of the favoritism of our double wielding the swordsman they only explain the rules of any game! I mean I could arguably say hammer space super genius kids have more character than this guy and they break the universe all the time I mean just look at Rick and Jimmy and Dexter and Dexter[have fun trying to figure out which one is which I mean both have a sister named deedee and both could be possibly guilty of murder that said only one of them is guilty of resurrecting A robotic dog and turning into a killing machine] but there's a big difference between a story arc and one shotters not to mention also super genius children still managed to make the world sound interesting because they know how to make stakes and also still makes things to make the plot more enjoyable versus who wishes he was the black swordsman and I know so many there are better especially one with a nice Afro. [also Lily stinks again what else is new]
Lily Orchard somehow lost a shadow boxing fight with herself, an imaginary opponent she made up, and with any random opponent that enters the ring for fun, all at once.
I don't know if that's impressive, sad, or hilarious. So to compromise, let's say it's all three.
"I am bleeding, making me the Victor!"
-Lily after jobbing to Her schizophrenia
It's like watching the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail dismember himself and say he's won.
Any one of those three make me laugh
@@KaiserShounen. Honestly, i'd laugh too, if it wasn't so pathetic. You"download"?
@@KaiserShounen
You should do a response to Lilly's Star Wars videos and her views/opinions on the Sith/dark side of the force
Honestly Lilly's thoughts on Star wars is quite... Interesting to say the least. She uses a lot of examples from the KOTOR games of sith not being evil due to the design of those games around player choice and how they choose to play as a Sith. The choices in the old Republic for the dark side being somewhat less evil than you would expect for a Sith.
Guys i think the problem is Lily thinks "I like it so it's good, i don't like this so it bad" and then tries to explain her logic when there is none. And she does that by making shit up
Agreed. Especially when you look at what she thinks is bad and her arguments for such. *Cough- Steven Universe- *cough *
@@That_1GayTheaterKid a moment of silence for Rebecca Sugar who dealt with right-wingers calling SU propaganda and then later left-wingers for doing the same thing somehow.
I mean, tbh, most people are this way. You see many people defend male Mary Sues because they happen to like them and its a power fantasy thats appealing to them.
@@shizachan8421 tbf you can have an overpowered character and still have a compelling plot. Elsa is arguably OP but what makes her interesting is her powers hinge on her emotions which are unstable - the more emotional she is, the more her powers grow uncontrollable, and her arc is about learning to rely on people who care about her. Most people write off Mary Sues because they tend to be uninteresting seeing as their powers can just fix any conflict because the conflict can develop or influence the plot in any way. I can immediately think of SAO's Kirito where the plot itself bends itself backwards for his sake when it's supposed to be the other way around.
@@randompromises1038 I agree, but I also think that there is quite the difference between an overpowered character and a Mary Sue. I thinke ven more than Elsa wie have Superman, who is probably one of the most overpowered super heroes in comics history. But what makes him compelling is how his powers are used to convey his inner godness and heroism and the best Superman Stories are those, that focus on the fact that what makes him special are not his superpowers, but the innate goodness and kindness of Clark Kent, his best moments are quite small acts of him being more akin to a guardian angel, who will show up in your hour of need and who can resolve situations without relying on his powers.
A Mary Sue on the other hand is overpowered to convey a very self-serving power fantasy, with the plot and the characters surrounding them bending over backwards to enable this power fantasy. Kirito like you said is one of the most infamous examples of that, but I also think that it shows how easily audiences are able to excuse this in a male character. SAO was well received and had good reviews, it wasn't really until DigiNees review of SAO that the public opinion turned against it and even there I think, that it was really only possible because Kirits framing as a Black Swordsman commited a cardinal sin. But we also see how animes that are worse than SAO actually get a pass. Rising of the Shield Hero absolutely got a pass for political reasons, because of the whole fake rape accusation drama that gave it a reputation of being anti-woke and make culture warriors jump into its defense.
I really hate the "Everyone I dislike or disagree with is a incel/neckbeard/pick me/basement dweller without exception and only I and the people who agree with me have the correct opinions and are capable of thinking beyond (insert group bad)" mentality, like it somehow automatically dismisses or disproves any and all points the other side has made. Even a broken clock is right twice a day..
I swear, in this case some people will dismiss you as clinically insane for even trying to be neutral toward or even understand Shad in order to present in good faith.
Well at least unlike Lily, im willing to give people a chance to prove me wrong, even if they will disagree in the end
@@KaiserShounen. Ironically, the video that Lily Orchard is ashamed of making, has better points about why korra sucks then recent videos!😂
Oh trust me, it gets even worse when you directly address Lily’s talking points. She’ll literally call you every label under the sun just because you point out something that she’s objectively wrong about. You call her out for basically making up an enemy to shadow box against, and she’ll say you’re only criticising her because she’s trans and you’re transphobic. She has no actual leg to stand on so she has to pick something out of the imaginary bubble in her head in order to deflect from actually responding to any and all criticism.
17:35 Please do PROTAGONIST CENTERED MORALITY
I hate that trope so much
It was the vibes Miraculous Ladybug gave me lol
@@nevaehhamilton3493 facts
@@marqusmedina5983 Star Vs. and RWBY fit the bill too. A lot of Korean webcomics call victim to it as well.
@@ma.2089 facts
A good candidate would be RWBY or a good chunk of CW shows.
Honestly jawdropping the amount of vitriol lily puts into nearly every sentence. Like wow.
Just full of spite
Seriously. Its genuinely uncomfortable how much *venom* she packs into every sentence.
Right? I remember I saw her vid on The Coffin of Andy and Leyley and couldn't watch it for more than 2 minutes because of how staggeringly venomous every line she said was. I didn't even get to her actual point.
I have no clue who tf is supposed to enjoy this content apart from literal demons who feed off negativity.
My definition of a Mary Sue is simple: While a normal character is shaped around the story, a Mary Sue shapes the story around her.
I get that people tend to misuse Mary Sue a lot when it comes to certain female characters, but that doesn't suddenly make the term invalid when it's necessary. There are female characters that perfectly fit that description, and denying that feels like pure cope from fans of those characters of types of characters.
When has the term Mary sue been misused?
@@jacobcain1352 Usually the worst examples are when a female character is more competent than a lot of other characters, even when they explain why they are competent thanks to being trained or having a skill that's unique to them alone like the main character from Prey or Hazel from the new FOP show.
@@kingbash6466 I wouldn’t be surprised if thats the case. I don’t really know enough about the examples given to really argue either point. But maybe you can answer some questions I have about prey. My first question is does she show the predator that she’s a worthy opponent? Predators only fight worthy opponents. My second question is how in the hell does she kill it in the first place?
When leftist commentators argue that certain characters are a product of "capitalism poisoning feminism" as Lily put it, they're not mad about minority characters being competent, they're complaining about studios having a very narrow view of how those minorities can succeed. Mary Sue characters push a very individualistic version of what it means to be competent: winning the day all on your own without struggling. But that's not realistic. It reinforces the standards for members of these groups to be exceptional. Power fantasy can be fun, but if social commentary or empowerment is the goal you need characters that face their struggles in a more realistic way.
Lilly gets everything wrong. Like she thinks a zombie being raised from the dead is a rape scene, because the necromancer didn't get consent.
That's the zombie elf gal her wife keeps on drawing.
Please tell me you're joking, cause ain't no way. I don't wanna believe people can be that dumb.
@@TrueReverse74 Nope its real. The death knight didnt even like her. He raised her because she was annoying and he was only ever in love for Jaina.
Btw Sylvanas also raises people to the dead after she gets her free will back.
She's complemented by a dread lord for being ruthless.
Few videos that I watched from her channel before never watching her again due to her being spiteful asshole who is full of stupid takes
(Why is the main villian of LoK s1 holds Korra's arms when fighting her in a CQC enviroment?They must be sexist and racist.
I don't know Lily, maybe because he is trying to defeat her by preventing her main method of bending because outside of that waterbending chick from s3 everybody uses their arms to bend the ELEMENTS!)
I wondered why she hated the protaginst of Warcraft3 who later became tragic villian besides him being straight white dude whos hair is blonde.Honestly I should've seen this coming due to hers personality.
@@Hot_SpicyGrill My god... it's such a sad line of thinking.
i wondered wth you were talking about but i see you were actually referring to her video about arthas. that was so off to me. because couple of victims of abuse and rape have said that it's an allegory for rape automaticallyy that means that it is? torture can't just be torture? a villain torturing his adversary with a fate worse than death (which is a common trope) is automatically a rape allegory? im sorry to those people but you're wrong. in fact it only honestly hurts your "case" worse by trying to liken things that are "similar" to rape as being exactly like rape.
"Mary sues are just a word dudebros use to hate women" would be a compelling argument!
....If it wasn't for that fact that if you knew a tinge of anime, you'd know that "Overpowered guy that's so good at everything and gets all the gurls" is such a hyper-scrutinized and criticized trope in animanga (so bad it turned alot of people off on the isekai genre; myself included)
It's almost like people just don't like characters who have everything because they're so great and awesome and stuff
There IS a bit of sexism to it tho, since you’ll see ppl vehemently hate Mary sues. But Gary sues are defended as being childhood self insert power fantasies that are harmless.
Theres def vitriol, but its a touch less. But it’s not about Mary Sues or Gary stus, It’s cuz it’s a girl’s interest and not boy’s. So self insert fantasies for girls are bad but self insert fantasies for boys are more acceptable.
@@ma.2089
1. I literally JUST mentioned how people have been vocally against Gary sues
2. I never denied there WASNT sexism; just that people use that as a scapegoat to deflect criticism
It's easier to say that your opposition just hates women than to actually listen to the fair critiques they have
For the record I don't believe any of that "Erhm woke!!!" crap. I judge a piece of media for what it is; if it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad
There is no ulterior motive like some dudebros think there is.
@@ma.2089 Don't a lot of people hate Kirito and prefer an abridged version of him?
@@jzbelay yes and the reason for it is well it's abridged version so
I mean, Goku doesn't get nearly as much flack for being a Gary Stu as some female character get, but it is something that is a problem when writing any character.
You'd think Lily would have a better idea of what a Mary/gary stu is if shes doesn't spend 80% of her time only watching Steven Universe and my little pony lol
I find it rich how Superman is apparently a Gary Stu when a core part of his character is that he is vulnerable, both physically and emotionally.
He was back in the daybut comics have an awkward and invasive history.
The thing with Clark is that he has all that power but underneath it all he’s still just a guy, the type of guy that would stop and help you fix your car or spends hours with a person who wants to hurt themselves.
Superman's real problem re: power is how ridiculous the scaling has to get for a villain to pose a physical threat to him; if anything, the 'being a good, responsible citizen despite this crazy level of power throwing that out of whack' angle works better for that reason.
And heck, in the DCAU, he's not that over powered as opponents like Shazam, Brainiac, Darkseid etc. have landed some blows on him.
@@heywoodjablome5380 even the "No one is a threat to him" isnt true. Most of Supe's rogues gallary has been able to toss him around.
At this point I'm convinced that Lily is rage baiting and considers any publicity to be good publicity. To me it feels like there's almost no other way around it.
It absolutely is just rage/troll bait.
Orchard squandered any chance of being a halfway decent media critic after MLP Friendship is Magic went off the air and can only rely on deliberately pissing off huge fandoms for popular cartoons just for clicks and profit.
@@anneoneal3865 Lily written ped0phile MLP hellfics
Well her UA-cam days are numbered, then. People only entertain that stuff for so long, unless you're ridiculously popular on the platform, and Lily doesn't even have half a million subs.
Another good quote about Mary Sues:
"Reading a story about a Mary Sue is like reading about a hero whose reached the end of their journey. Or beginning the story where it should end."
Except without the humor and introspective nature of One Punch Man.
I could write a book about what Lily doesn't understand.
If it's about what Lily Orchard doesn't understand, then people will be able to see that book from space.
What’s the name of the book?
@@samflood5631 "Lily: The Human Enigma"
After watching this video, I really question how Lily Orchid even has gotten this far in her youtube channel and still doesn't know what the "mary sue" discourse even means. It really stems from how the writers are so incompetent for making the characters we (as the audience) could root for and emphasize with. Instead, they make the characters tamper with in order for the plot to work for THEM. This robs any potential stakes or conflict off of the story, hence the term "Mary Sue." Do you see why Mary Sues don't fundamentally work in a story, Lily???
A lot of people intentionally misidentify the term 'Mary Sue' in order to dismiss criticism of their pet characters or their own bad writing. Whether somebody is doing so out of malice or ignorance varies on the person (and is usually a combination of both). A lot of times when somebody defends the Mary Sue, you'll find that they're basically just trying to shut up criticism: "Mary Sue is a sexist term, therefore the only reason you don't like the character/story is because you're sexist, therefore anything else you might say is also because you're just sexist, therefore my character is actually great."
I think this video was published around the time Lily was working on her fanfic The Sith Resurgence, where her OC (a Dark Lady of the Sith who is the greatest Force user in the galaxy and has the coolest ship and is a super badass but also a precious blossom who has to be protected from big meanie-heads like Leia and pretty much wins the war against the First Order singlehandedly and becomes the new galactic leader and also marries Rey and and and) was accused of being a Mary Sue. You can probably figure out if this video had an ulterior motive.
@MmeCShadow Yeah, after looking into her cringy self insert based on the Star Wars. I can finally confirm this is just pure PROJECTION at its finest 👌
@@MmeCShadow TBH, the asinine reaction of "Oh, my character isn't such-and-such and is in fact great" can apply to beyond Mary Sues/Gary Stus. You'd be surprised how many have similar attitudes when defending Snyder's Superman, Anakin Skywalker from the PT and Kylo Ren from the sequels (both of whom were "conflicted" while committing mass murders/genocide with little-to-no redeeming qualities), and (of course) even RWBY characters. It's this cultist-like mentality that needs to purged from fandoms.
@@MmeCShadow Fuck me, she REALLY DID THAT?!
Yes she did@@gabrielcancelado2490
23:51 What I love most about this is that not only does he do this to revive his adopted daughter (the game's administrative AI in the form of a mob) but ... bro could have freed everyone from the game, or atleast try to. The narrative just completely ignores that possibility and nothing ever truly comes out of their relationship with their daughter until the NEXT season.
Lily's right that Mary Sues are fun when it's talking about OCs in fandom spaces. Kids making their OC be Princess Moonbeam Glitter is okay. It's fun. Whatever. It's an actual problem in real media. But she has it ass-backwards where she thinks Mary Sue is a term that's more acceptable to criticize children's OCs than real characters
"Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler's heart, kill your darlings." -Steven King, while not intentional this is a great way not to write a Mary Sue.
The more I think about Mary Sue's the more I've come to the conclusion is that the difference between a competent overpowered character and a Mary Sue is the actions of the other characters in the story.
James Bond is probably my favourite example of a character who meets most definitions of Mary Sue but nobody hates. He's a total badass, he's smart, charming, good at everything, he always gets the girl, everyone likes him. But I've never really heard anyone call him a Sue, because well, setting aside how unrealistically good he is at everything, we do actually like him because he's well written.
On the other hand Rey is probably the only big motion picture character who fits every definition of the Mary Sue. Especially if you consider the sequels as fanfiction of the original movies. We have a character insert who overshadows every other character in the story to a infuriating degree. In the Force Awakens she flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, prior to The Last Jedi Luke was the embodiment of hope, Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the sith, but the Rise of Skywalker takes that away.
And that's why I don't have a problem with hypercompetent characters like James Bond but do have one with characters like Rey. The writers of the sequel trilogy were so hellbent on making Rey the best they literally had to spit on the most beloved characters of the original trilogy. They decided to shit on Han, Luke and Anakin in order to make Rey look good by comparison. The original Mary Sue was much the same way, she was more logical than Spock, a better leader then Kirk, a better doctor then McCoy.
If your only way of making a character look good is by making other characters look bad, your writing is terrible. And to me that's the difference between Mary Sue's and well written OP characters.
I think something to note about James Bond is that there were times he was tricked or nearly got done in too, from my limited knowledge of the character. He was fallible. He wasn't perfect.
The thing with Bond and other similar characters is that they have to work and suffer for their success, they have q history and rich experience that lead them to being badasses. And Bond isn't the best at literally everything, for example lots of his success relies on gadgets made and designed by other people, so while Bond is overpowered, he doesn't overshadows other characters in their expert sphere
@@LordTyphAnd Rey is perfect? She spends most of the movies doubting herself and the last one almost falling to the dark side. Just because you think they didn't take it far enough doesn't mean it didn't happen. If she beat Palpatine without Ben's help I would see where people are coming from but that's not what happened. Anakin won a podrace and took out a space station as a todler, the Force can help you do a lot of things.
Let's talk about Luke. In the first movie he has no agency. He says he wants to join the resistance but that doesn't play a role in the actual story as he never gets a choice. He gets attacked, is saved by Obi Wan, says he can't leave his uncle, and returns to his farm to find his family murdered, which means he has no choice but go with Obi Wan. They get on the Death Star by mistake, they escape to a planet about to be destroyed, and then he saves the day not because he choose to do so but because the narrative forced him to do so or die, never once did he have the option to escape, only Solo gets that.
In the next movies he gets agency but now everything he does is correct. Sure, he got beaten for not finishing his training, but otherwise his friends would have died, and maybe he left his friends to fight the last battle all alone and went ham on his dad thus almost giving in to the darkness but if anything went differently it's possible Vader wouldn't redeem himself.
I won't even mention Jabba's palace where every other character goes in to save Solo yet gets captured only making the situation worse only for Luke to go in and solve everything himself by brute Force with even Leia strangling Jabba only being possible because he distracted the guards.
I don't much like the original trilogy.
Really, even if Rey was Mery or Anakin was a Gary I would not care because I don't actually believe in bad writing. I either like something or I don't, and if I liked Luke I would not care about any of the above, I just think he's a wet blanket of a protagonist, thus any problem with him I notice gets exaggerated in my mind, which is I believe what actually happened to Rey for many people, because even though I am perfectly okay with Mary Sues, I still don't see it for Rey.
One Punch Man and Mob are satire of other anime and superhero protagonists, but if they're satire that means the thing they are satirising actually happens even if to a lesser extent, right? For example, Goku.
Nappa kills almost the entire cast? Goku comes in and doesn't even struggle, in fact he only struggles against Vegita who is even stronger than the one who beat the entire cast. Racoome? the same story. The rest of the cast can barely make Frieza feel pain? He makes Frieza take the form he never used before just to compete with him.
He got Super Sayan, a form Vegeta tried so hard to achieve, from a bout of righteous anger for his friend dying, which while satisfying narratively satisfying to show caring about people makes you stronger than being out only for yourself still can be called unearned, and by the time he gets to Super Sayan 3 he can just achieve the form off screen because the narrative is no longer interested in how he gets the forms no one else can, with the reason this form is only possible to sustain if you're dead being more of a handwave.
There is a reason "can he beat Goku" is a meme, yet no one calls him a Gary Stue.
Basically. Bad character traits can be ignored when the whole character is cool.
See Saitama. Ignoring the fact that he is a flawed character (mad dumb, always late to fights, his brokenness is actually a problem for him) and automatically can't be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, he's funny and has some good character development. So people don't care about him being OP.
@@genyakozlov1316 I'm not sure where you've been on the internet but a lot of people call goku a gary stu. Or just too overpowered. That's like one of the main criticisms of dragon ball. goku and vegeta overshadow everyone else to the point where the other side characters like krillin, gohan, piccolo, and trunks barely matter.
Can’t believe I used to watch Lily and took her seriously. Thing is, she sounds so confident that it’s almost convincing.
I remember watching her Steven universe is terrible video and agreeing with her. However, after watching some people talk about the show in a positive light and rewatching her video, I kinda just came to the conclusion that young me (who wasn’t part of the lgbtq+ community at the time) only watched the show for the gem invasion stuff and skipped over most of the town episodes. I’m now pretty sure I didn’t appreciate the show for what it was, and while I could rewatch it with a different view I don’t have any plans to do so in the future.
Another one that I'm surprised Lily Orchard missed, and this is technically cheating here, is Corrin/Kamui from Fire Emblem Fates, I remember back in 2016/17 the entirety of the the Fire Emblem community, went against Corrin for being a guy/girl that could do nothing wrong, and everyone loves him, and everyone that doesn't is either purely evil, or possessed by someone who's purely evil.
Hell, last year, people did the exact same thing with Alear from Fire Emblem Engage.
Demon Soul Rape is a common trope to make good characters oppose the party because they couldn't possibly just have a difference in principles.
THAT NAIVE CODDLED DENSE ASS MFER!
Fates had another character be the “killing blow” just to make Corrin’s hands clean of any bloodshed. Takumi had to possessed by an evil alzhiemer’s riddled dragon to hate Corrin and even then when Corrin “dies” it’s JUST there to establish “Takumi never hated Corrin” which is BULLSHIT. Hell, Hinoka takes Corrin killing half her family and causing irreparable damage to Hoshido as a country with a “it is what it is” mentality.
Alear is just comical with the literal worship of being a divine dragon (they’re usually considered gods in the fire emblem world) and it infecting EVERY CUTSCENE with them introducing themselves cause we just HAD to be able to name Alear. Alear makes BEING a divine dragon in a series where they are worshiped lame.
With these kinds of people, they tip their hand in what they like about the character by what they attack you over the character on. "You don't like Rey cause woman!" means that Lilly's only thing she likes about the character is that Rey is a woman. If Rey was a guy, she'd likely be on the side complaining about the Gary Stu.
TBH, the whole "you don't like something because of X (whether it'd be a character's gender or supposed "conflict" or a story/character being "different")" is nothing really new. You'd see it from fans of SW (both pre-Disney and Disney SW alike), Marvel, Snyder's DCEU, Legend of Korra, etc. They tend to focus on some surface-level aspect and claim it to be deep (going as far as to make up some nonsense or take from third-party materials to fill in the big blanks left by poor storytelling), all the while ignoring the fundamental flaws. It really is a double-standard, especially when they then criticize something else which is as bad as the thing they defend (e.g. SW prequels and sequels fans criticizing Kylo Ren and Anakin respectively when both are bad characters).
I mean, you can like a character for being well-written, but have people dislike a character because of their gender or whatever. Han Solo was going to be a black guy, but they thought audiences would reject him for being black. Nothing about the writing of the character was going to change. Just the fact he was black.
Lily has also said this about a show called The Owl House "People only like Amity and Hunter because they're white,"
Like... Bruh...
@@StainedGlassLamp People like them because they're well-written characters. The show has a cast of really well-done characters, and they're among them.
@@EliasJWhite Exactly
Not only is she a horrible person, she's incredibly incompetent
I'm genuinely surprised anyone is able to argue with Lily in the comments, last time I stumbled on her channel she curated her comment section to a very noticeable degree.
She still does
Here's the thing people don't realize, there is no such this as a "semi mary sue" or a "half mary sue" or a "partial mary sue". There's no spectrum between not being a mary sue and being one. It's just either a character is a mary sue or not, and a character doesn't have to uber-powerful to be one. Like you said, Superman or Saitama aren't mary sues because their stories don't revolve around them to an excessive degree, they don't just have what they need to fix their problems.
Rey is able use the force like a Jedi master without any prior training and she's as powerful/skilled as she needs to be to not fail, unlike Luke Skywalker which Reytards mistakenly call a mary sue. Simply saying Rey is a relative of Palpatine or Obi-Wan doesn't fix her issues. The narrative doesn't want Rey to suffer consequences and she always overshadows characters fans care about.
Did you expect sense or consistency from Lily? She complains about a character not getting enough screen time but then calls episodes that are in depth character explorations of them 'filler episodes' that did nothing.
The fact that Lilly put Rey as her third favourite Star wars character is extremly telling. Oh and the kicker she included legends. Kylo ren was her nr 1 hated character witch was basically the only consistantly good part about the sequles. Also Darth Maul was nr 2 most boring even with everything beyond ep 1. Truly s clown take.
Oh yeah Lilly. Arthas is irredemable because he was mindcontrolled by frostmourn. Sylvanas isn't irredemable because she didn't have a part of her soul because of frostmourn. Even tough Sylvanas did way worse than Arthas even the very thing that he did to her. Smh.
so it's not JUST the same source of corruption but Sylvanas also got a more intense version!?
So I've never read any of Lily's fanfictions and never will, but based on what I've heard from people on UA-cam, her stories are filled with Mary Sue. Like, all of her characters are either Mary Sues or Anti-Sues. The main characters do awful things like kidnapping, abuse, pedophilia, and incest, and these actions are either excused or portrayed as good. So this is probably why she defends Mary Sue. because she is a narcissist who is unable to accept that her storytelling isn't the best thing ever.
Orchard doesn’t understand a lot of things honestly.
She actually said that Syndrome from Incredibles did nothing wrong. That he was the most competent character in the story and the best hero since he was able to defeat all the other heroes.
@@avivastudios2311 dawg you need to link that video right now lmao
@@KaiserShounen ua-cam.com/video/GrKh88vMmzc/v-deo.htmlsi=clWKgi1N2NlIZpXz
Start from the 7 minutes mark. I just re-watched a piece of it and she said that Syndrome's ends were benevolent and that The Incredibles were incompetent people.
@@avivastudios2311 omfg I remember this one. Wow this is terrible
@@avivastudios2311She does realize Syndrome committed GENOCIDE on the supers and going to let the Omnidroid attack the city ON PURPOSE so he can take all the glory, right? Even Mr. Incredible called him out with this line “You mean you killed off real heroes so that you could PRETEND to be one?” How does she missed that?
I'm just here to boost the algorithm
Great choice of guest. You should bring him on more often!
you should bring on this dude called Biogundam sometime in the future, I heard he makes some fun stuff.
38:15 Hey that's ME! That's my comment.
Yeah, a friend of mine and I showed the OG vid to screenshot that. Thanks for asking the bright question.
@@KaiserShounen. In my experience, sometimes, it's not Just about asking smarter, but someone else being smart enough to listen. Especially in the mlp videos, Lily sounded like someone who's exasperated at their peers for not asking those questions, and claimed only themselves see what's wrong with the full picture.
Wait the previous video was a preview? No wonder it was so short.
The mary sue seems to be a character that is a product of the mind of the kind of person that do not understand and/or is not aware of the "strugle to the path to mastery". Most people think that someone is talented when they are not aware of what the "talented" person went through to achieve such level of skill over whatever it is, and the writer of the mary sue think like that. This seems like a reasonable explanation to the fact that, more often than not, the mary sue comes atached to distaste of older characters, because they cant see their strugle to grow, and assume people admire them simply because they are man or white or both.
Honestly, I think that kind of mentality can apply not just to Mary Sues/Gary Stus. A writer could have a character struggle but still fail due to something inherently flawed with said character and/or struggle itself. An example could be Shiro Emiya from Fate/Stay Night (at least the anime adaptations) who is shown to struggle somewhat but there are inherent issues with his character that don't make him likable. The same applies to (at least, more recently) Izuku Midoriya from My Hero Academia who does struggle, but his character ultimately falls flat due to his power progression, self-destructive tendencies, and so on (much like Shiro)
To me, the Mary Sue is someone who can't be beat for any reason and comes in 3 flavours.
Good: A Mary Sue who's established to be unbeatable and is fun to watch.
Bad: A Mary Sue who's established as extremely powerful and sucks all the fun or tension away.
Pure: A Mary Sue that breaks the rules for no reason.
How DARE you bring up the drought of new Mega Man games
Someone had to do it
I'd even settle for a rerelease. We still don't have Legends or StarForce collections. And th GB games could use remakes.
@@espurrseyes42
Poor Volnutt is still stuck on the moon
@@KaiserShounen. Ever thought about covering the periphery media? Because so fare, Sonic and megaman share both nostalgia critic's ignorance, and a show made by man of action and wildbrain!
I am going to place ANYTHING critqueing "CULTURE WAR" as bad faith from this point on. Shad broke it down WELL anyone using "CULTURE WAR" as an argument simply is making a strawman to fight instead of their arguments. Same level as Lily and a BLACK MARK against them PERMANENTLY.
Weird: Shad is conducting his own little culture war now he's got enough of you licking his boots
@@williamchamberlain2263 right so many licking his boots... are the boot lickers in the room with you? I swear those with Hate BONERS are so common today. Do you even know why you hate him or did you just listen to Anita Sarkessian that you must hate everyone that disagrees with you?
Cook
One of, if not the most hated character types is the “super OP young male that is super bland so that self inserting is as easy as possible”
The Mary Sue is literally just a female version of that but with an obvious political background.
See, you've taken the definition of the term then tacked your feminism boner onto it
An example of a character I like who is borderline a Mary Sue. He is named "Saitama" In his anime heroes exist and everything. He does the impossible and breaks his Limiter over the course of 3 years and boom he's the strongest Hero in the world. Wait! Not hero but am. Strongest Man in the world. And the conflict begins. He becomes bored, loses the thrill in life he had before, doesn't pay attention to conversations as easily anymore, easily distracted, Yada Yada Yada. He basically is at his strongest PHYSICALLY but Mentally he's becoming weaker. He can get Serious. He could go from slumping over his shoulder almost loosely wearing his suit that makes him look goofy. To his ENTIRE body outlining everything across the Suit. Showing off his abs, his shoulders, his biceps, his legs. But he rarely gets serious because. What is there left for him to be serious about? Being a hero who does it not for Fortune and fame? Won't that get to him? A interesting Anime that I suggest watching. ESPECIALLY the Manga
I've watched One punch man a while ago. Good show.
@KaiserShounen It is. The action in later in the Manga. Mmmmmm. You'll drool over it. And you would understand us the few who looked at the season 3 announcement and wish the best for the animators who won't be sleeping for a few years
Ignoring Saitama suffering from success of being OP, the reason he isn't a Gary Stu is because he's an idiot. He's always late to fights, causing the first responders to get hurt. He somehow didn't know about the Hero League that ironically was founded because of him and had been doing his thing while gaining no recognition for it. He literally fails the written portion of the Hero exam, causing him to start as a C Rank while Genos was in either A or S Rank. He struggles to find work to actually get his Hero License until Sonic shows up to fight him. And even then, that's only after Sonic starts attacking innocents while the Tank Top guy is lecturing him. Which results in him gaining a reputation for basically killstealing, although he embraces this after the fish King fight so the other Heros don't get disrespected by the populace. For all his raw power, Saitama has little going on in the head, resulting in him doing a significantly worse job than he would if her were at least decently smart. His intelligence is his big flaw that counteracts his physical strength and keeps him from actually being a Gary Stu. The existential crisis also helps to make him an interesting character instead of just a gag.
@espurrseyes42 You're right. Thank you for saying the things I didn't say. For all that amazing strength it's balanced with a not so good intelligence. Just look at the Garou VS Saitama fight. His opinion of Garou's "Absolute Evil" was that he kept on saving people. Even though it was ALL unintentional. Hilarious tho
@@KaiserShounen is it bad that i like some mary sues and gary stus and insert nonbinary and other gendere term
That whole theory you had at the end about Lily lying and knowing she's full of shit? You might be 100% correct. I recently stumbled across a reupload of one of her now deleted videos called "Little Mary Quite Contrary" from 2015-2016, and while she's still critical of the term's usage, she actually demonstrates an understanding of the problems with these types of characters (I.e. Plot bending to service protagonists). If I can find the video again, I'll send it to you but yeah, she's either gotten significantly dumber or more dishonest since the mid-2010's (my money's on both).
Dawg, if possible do whatever you can to find that and send it to me lol
Same.
Kaiser and I will legit credit you and cover it in my own video on the subject, if you can find it!
Sure, I'll send them to you both tomorrow when I get the chance.
@@john_o Don't worry about it. We found it through Wayback Machine. But we'll still credit you either way.
@@periodicpete There's actually two I wanted to send you, the other was what Little Mary was a remake of, being "Mommydagio Equals Alicorns" (which is rather infamous for revealing one of Lily's dirty little secrets but I digress). Hopefully you should find that one just as easily but if not, let me know and I'll send it to you. I think you should about both videos though to get the fuller picture.
Like when I want some fun with Mary Sues I just read a bunch of Chinese Manhwa with soap opera level writing, the Chinese sure love Mary Sue soap opera BS. Because sometimes you just wanna watch a train crash in slow motion. Like half of the time all the women other than the Mary Sue are unhinge psychos there to make the Mary Sue look better. I was telling my friend who is 1/4 Chinese about it and he was like "Yeah, no one hates other women more than Chinese Women." That was something I didn't expect to hear
25:15 I also wanted to point out an example of an overpower character done right and that is with sunraku from Shangri-La frontier. This is mainly just about people playing video games. The main character is a guy who specializes, completing the most broken incomplete glitchy games in the universe only to succeed at basically vr Elden ring because he has so much experiences with broken mechanics that he’s got good reflexes. But while character is strong he’s never overpowered. Moments in the series were outright loses, and I have to think of clever situations in order to slim by, when he goes up against Raiden, like that, he has to rely on other teammates because he can’t do as much damage as they can, when he plays outside in the main one, he is very skilled and people respect him for it, but he doesn’t always win. He’s antagonist very much so fun because while he is strong in his own way, he’s not absurdly broken. Top that off with a personality that makes you feel like he’s actually a gamer, and you got yourself actual good protagonist. Great video by the way just wanted to point out.
Not everyone loves Miles, but it weird no one calls him a marry sue.
Well you tell me. How is Miles a Mary Sue?
@@KaiserShounen I'm saying no one calls him Mary sue. That includes me.
@@Hot_SpicyGrill my mistake then lol
@@KaiserShounen
The most you could say is him in Insomniac conveniently getting the perfect power he needs in a situation. Rhino too strong? Venom powers. About to get shot by Roxxon security? Here's some Camo. Getting beaten by Roxxon after he gets kidnapped? Venom Blast. That's about it though, and he has imperfections as a person that causes problems for him.
@@espurrseyes42 Not to mention, you could just say those aspects are just how superheroes tend to awaken their abilities. It's the conventions of the genre. Plus Miles still faces trouble despite all of his abilities.
There was a Gary Stu in Lord of the Rings: Tom Bombadil. He put on the ring to no ill effect and can basically do anything - usually while singing.
There's a reason he's not in the Peter Jackson LOTR.
You're forgetting that in the books that Tom in spite of his great abilities, is a scatterbrain which would have made it really easy for the one ring to get back to saulron if the hobbits decided to give it to Tom.
Jackson movies don't feature talking animals either because they change the entire tone of the story to a dark and epic one, and thus while they are great movies they aren't actually great adaptations of the books, and this isn't a Forrest Gump situation where the unfaithful adaptation is better than the original either.
If your critique says Tolkien's favourite character is bad writing then excuse me for not thinking it holds any merit at all.
Don't get me wrong, Lord of the Rings isn't perfect, but Tom is definitely not one of its flaws.
Really, I would love for people to stop trying to make good stories and just make what they want to make, because all flaws are subjective and there is no such thing as an objectively good story, nor a bad one.
There are things you will never enjoy but there is nothing no one will enjoy, and art caters to everyone.
A side character can't really be a Mary Sue especially when they're in the story for one chapter. No matter how good they are they aren't going to be the one to actually resolve the conflict of the story so it probably won't hurt the narrative. They just show up to give some good advice and then they're off.
I thought this was a reupload....until I saw the length of the video.
I'm gonna have to get you on Korra. No she didn't master the elements faster than Aang. She knew how to bend them as a toddler sure, but she didn't master them until after her constant training with White Lotus members (a luxury she has access to as the next Avatar because of the world her predecessor built), and still didn't have Air bending until the end of Book 1, which she struggled with the training of while Aang pretty easily handled and only struggled on the actual bending, which he got by the end of the episode he started training in.
She also gets wooped a LOT. Her team doesn't beat those cheaters in the Probending League. She fails to stop the Equalists frequently. Amon specifically gave her lasting trauma even up to Book 3 where she sees his face while being mercury poisoned. She loses access to the knowledge and BS her past lives could give her (which, i don't consider that BS given how Aang on more than one occasion has gotten possessed by a past life, Roku actually fighting on his behalf in that case) when the Light Spirit was destroyed, and was mercury poison at the end of Book 3 going into early Book 4. And all of this is going on in a world that doesn't seem to the Avatar around, especially in Book 3, and while dealing with a shitty Love Triangle subplot between her, Mako, and Asami.
It's kinda hard to call her a Mary Sue when she's anything but perfect and is constantly taking Ls. She's not that well-written, but a Mary Sue. She's not Rey, who struggles with next to nothing and doesn't have her flaws, if any, called out.
I think MangaKamen did a better job analyzing Korra’s character when he explained Korra is not a total Mary Sue but she has the traits of a Mary Sue at least from season 1-2.
One interesting different between Aang & Korra is how they initially think about being the Avatar due to their past:
_ Aang was a teen & lost all his friends because he's the Avatar & the monks were going to separate him from his adopted father, people was putting pressure on him due to Ozai clearly building up power. Thus he saw it as burden he couldn't wait to get rid off
_ Korra was a toddler (hasn't formed any bond beside with her family) & didn't lose anything, she was charmed by all the cool powers. And most importantly she was not pressured but instead pampered: The other Avatar had to go to each countries to learn bending(& the nations themselves), while Korra had teachers coming to her at the Southern Water Tribe instead(we saw her train fire bending at the South Pole & she knew only the very basic knowledge about the Earth Kingdom when she go there in SS3), Tenzin is the only exception(because he's the only Air master that can teach her but he has duties at the Republic City & can't leave for very long, so she had to go to him for training). So she is overly prideful of being the Avatar(she basically built her personality around it) & overconfident of her abilities despite knowing very little about her responsibilities
* P/S: Korra did break some rule. For example, she already could use 3 elements before learning it. In TLAB, even if you had the talent, someone has to introduce the basic to you before you can start bending rudimentary(Aang didn't bend anything beside Air until he had basic instruction)
@@firemaster9293 You mean, literally what I said lmao
Please submit your pick for what content you want to see next month www.youtube.com/@KaiserShounen/community
Another video destroying Lily’s bullsh*t? 🍿🍿🍿
Enjoy
We all love to see it.
@@KaiserShounen. Telly ho chao! Would you care to ask for a spot of tea?
Writing many kinds of characters can be fun. However Mary Sues are not fun to write about either, because the narrative bends to give them what they want with little to no effort. After all part of the joy of writing is putting yourself in your characters place and imagining what they are going through, and having everything you want gets stale fast cause it means you have nothing to work towards. Even coffee shop A.U.'s have the stress of running a business to keep up with modern day expenses', even if that isn't the focus of the plot. A fun story can become as stressful as the writer wants it without the need to bend the rules of the story.
110%
I can't imagine anyone writing Mary Sue fanfiction (over the age of like... 15) getting much of a kick out of it past 5 chapters.
@@KaiserShounen Speaking from experience, I was 16 or 17 when I wrote my first KR fanfics and the main characters in those were more or less self-insert Gary Stus. Kinda glad I never wrote more than 10 chapters with them.
@@KaiserShounen. Isn't that, how one punch man started life?
@@krraika1847. You could've gotten something worthwhile out of it with time and practice.
@@erikbihari3625 And I did. I've learned the severe problems with those fanfics. Over many years, I've made more mistakes with writing, have recognized them, and am trying to take steps to tell better stories to the best of my abilities. Just saying I'm glad I never did more (with those particular fanfics I've mentioned) because I probably wouldn't have improved otherwise.
Wait till Lily orchard hears about warhammer 40k. She's gonna go ballistic. She's not gonna handle the grimdark of this franchise. And she's gonna call humans the bad guys when really they are in the right for what their doing.
Also blame Erebus.
I hate that Mary Sue is not being used to describe poorly written characters, but instead just overpowered characters. I've seen people call Grand Admiral Thawn a mary sue... Grand Admiral Thawn, a man who had to face the racial bias in the empire and push against the human supremacists to be a military leader is a mary sue?
It seems that Lily doesn’t do her research very well on the things she’s reviewing like Baldur’s Gate, World of Warcraft, Avatar, Star Wars and many others.
i always expect too much from lily orchard, i saw the mary sue video's title and thought she was going to talk about how the term originates from fanfiction and take a "cringe culture is dead" approach and discuss how mary sue ocs in fanfiction are harmless fun at the end of the day and people tend to blow things way out of proportion when it comes to how people write their characters. but i forgot this is lily orchard we're talking about and once again got bombarded with at least 60 of the worst takes i've ever heard a human being make
25:58 Lily became ultimate contrarian
At this point, she's becoming a joke.
She was a joke, is a joke, and will always be a joke.
This is my first time watching a video criticizing one of my UA-camrs that wasn't straight garbage
10:31 and let’s remind the audience that the starring moment of “be a man” wasn’t Mulan getting better but EVERYONE getting better. Mulan was just the smoking gun that started the domino effect on everyone’s improvement, the shining light proving that everyone can get better so everyone stepped up to the challenge allowing Mulan to earn the respect of even her comrades that initially had beef with her and eventually became some of her best friends/ally’s.
Gundam Seed is good? Admittedly, I haven't watched it, but I got my doubts.
Anyway, as as guy who has read fanfics since I was a wee lad of 12, I can tell you there is A LOT of OCs (male and female alike--sometimes Japanese-ish) who hog the spotlight from the established characters. Sometimes, they're not even Mary Sues/Gary Stus, they're just badly written.
Like you've said in the beginning, this stuff here is nothing new. In fact, the arguments supporting Mary Sues could be used for non-Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters who are just as bad, e.g. Bayformers' Optimus Prime, Snyder's Superman (and maybe the DCEU characters in general), etc. Not helped that favoritism can still exist for these characters. And the less I say about SW (pre-Disney and Disney alike), the better.
No I said it wasn't good lmao. Gundam SEED is terrible
@@KaiserShounen Ah, I misheard you saying "Periodic Pete not seeing SEED is good" as "SEED is good." My mistake. In any case, a decent vid.
I liked Gundam Seed. Destiny was trash tho I'm glad I watched it cause kimi wa boku niteiru is my all time favourite ED
Your examples are bad, because at least bay-verse optimus doesn't bend the story to his will or get unnecessary wins, and snyder should've stuck to gahool, as he's really good at least that! Right everyone? Kaiser?
@@KaiserShounen. Will you ever elaborate on this in video form(or something else)?
15:42 Overly Sarcastic Production is our Ace Queen ready to defeat Lily :0
You do realise they said to think Lily has subscribed to red?
I strongly disagree with everything you had to say about Legend of Korra to the point where I wonder if we watched the same show. Don't get me wrong LOK has a lot of problems but Korra being a Mary Sue isn't one. In fact it's not even close.
Korra doesn't learn the elements faster than Aang. Sure we see her throw some water, stone and fire in the opening scene but its mostly played for laughs and this is nowhere near the level one would need to be at to actually win a fight. Aang is 12 years old when the story starts (112 but iceberg years don't count.) and Korra is 17. By her age Aang had already mastered the elements. Korra has learned 3 pretty well and can't do anything with air. It takes her an entire season to do any airbending at all.
About Korra mastering the Avatar state. Aang learned how to control the Avatar state from guru pathik. He let go of his attachment to Katara under Ba Sing Se and entered the avatar state. Then he was struck by lighting and was ohysically blocked from entering the avatar state. This is explicitly stated in the show that its his ohysival wound thats preventing him from entering the Avatar state and when that pointy rock hits him he unlocks it. (I know its one of the dumber parts of the show but that is what happens and the point is that this criticism doesn't work because he did learn the avatar state.)
As far as Aang teaching her to use energy bending. There is some validity to the idea that past avatars teaching you abilities undermines the premise of the show. And Aang showing up at the end of season 1 is definitely kind of an ex machina but where I think this critisisms falls flat is the fact that energy bending wasn't an ability that Aang had to learn wither. A lion Turtle touched his forehead and he could just do it. Learning bending just seems to be a more involved thing and Energy bending seems to be a thing that is bestowed on someone.
And Korra is far from a character without flaws. She struggles with the spiritual side of being the avatar, she gets tricked by people, she loses her powers and suffers from PTSD. If anything the problem with the story seems to be that she's often underpowered and its frustrating watching a show where shes constantly getting her butt whiped, and struggling to deal with her own past failures.
Also I know we see Toph use her seismic sense to discover metal bending, but its never established that that is the only way to metal bend. Just like its never established that you have to learn firebending by holding a burning leaf or meeting a dragon. Just because thats how one character learns it doesnt mean it's the only way. Since we have no way of knowing what the physical/ mental feeling of bending an element is like we can't really say whether you need seismic sense to telepathically connect your mind to the minerals inside of metal. If the show says Toph saw it with her seismic sense but you can just be taught that its made from refined rocks and focus your mind on moving the ricks that are in there then we kind of have to go with that. Its ridiculous to tell the show creators that's not how it works, and I don't see why thats any harder to believe than the fact that they're telepathically moving rocks in the first place. Silly argument.
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Metalbending works because of the unrefined earth still present in it. Which is why Platinum and other "Pure Metals" can't be bent. You're not bending them metal. You're bending what's inside the metal. It's akin to bloodbending, sans the fact that I'm pretty sure there's more water within blood and more blood in the human body than there is unrefined earth in a slab of metal. Theoretically, you don't need Seismic Sense to metalbend. You just have to know that there's earth in the metal similar to how bloodbenders know there's water in the human body. That being said, if normal waterbenders need the full moon to bloodbend, it's not a stretch to say that Seismic Sense to detect EXACTLY where the earth is would have to be required for metalbending unless you're just "built different" like Yakone's family.
TLDR It's theoretically possibly to metalbend without SS, but if a comparable special bending art requires special conditions to use, there's no reason the same shouldn't apply to metalbending, requiring SS to properly detect where the earth in the metal is that you're bending. It just makes sense, and there's been nothing shown disputing this. You can fix this issue easily by establishing that SS isn't a prerequisite, but just very useful, or just showing that Korra learned SS as part of her Earthbending training.
@@espurrseyes42 THIS. EXACTLY THIS. THIS WAS MY ISSUE.
Very nice discussion. I probably like Lily Orchard’s content more than most people here but this critique is on point and is one of the most concise and clear definitions I have seen on the topic of Mary Sues.
No way you actually did a video on her. Honestly, I'm all for Lily slander, but I didn't actually expect you to make your own video on her.
Nothing in this video is slander. Lily Orchard is an idiot who doesn't understand what makes a character good.
Actual research,every appropriate amount of information,appealing presentation,working comedy. My friend, just earned yourself a new subscriber! How you so good for an upstart?
Lily wants to say we're wrong for calling out women written poorly by men, yet also call the film industry sexist. If she actually cared she'd argue the reason these characters are Mary Sues is because of sexism. She doesn't care about anything but being a toxic hipster.
I've heard it best that "Mary Sue" isn't some kind of character description or character specific trope, it’s a *writing* flaw. In bare bones it’s critical of how the writer is doing their job. Not any kind of weird judgment of actions made by a non-existent human that isn't and will never be sentient beyond their writer.
Lily dumb. And she really doesn’t grapple with the concept that men are writing some of these Hollywood Sue characters, huh. You'd really think that would've been a topic for a good ol' rant about her f-ed up ideas. Can totally see her doing a "if you aren't x gender/other thing, then how dare you write them as the leads in your stuff"...
Imagine taking anything “lily” orchard has to say seriously
Exactly
18:54
I kinda feel like Lily has been drinking cactus juice their entire youtube career at this point.
Nah, cactus juice is just fruity water, she’s been huffing copium quadloos for decades.
Watching your video was quite the fun, Kaiser. Both you and Pete had put a lot of effort in the video. And I meant a lot by stating, why I haven't watched SAO. And here I thought, that Issei from Highschool DxD was a Gary Stue, majorly because he is not only overpowered, but also gets powerups by thinking of touching boobs. If I still have to choose, I'd hate Kirito more, because he is not a character. At least with Issei, they tried to do something. And one of the stuff I heard about Highschool DxD, is that it is more than just story, filled with boobs.