Loft-jacking and Delofting Golf Clubs?
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- Опубліковано 27 січ 2024
- #golftips #golfcoach #pga
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Wish they would only put the loft number on irons and put it to rest
I agree 100 percent. Cleveland does, and Hogan did, and it's a much more relevant and usable number.
My slant on this is for example a 7 iron is still 7 iron shaft length but it is now 6 iron loft which really is Golf Companies knowing that regular players will have more chance to hit it in the middle more often and produce longer shot's.
I would prefer lofts written on irons not numbers - so we can compare apples with apples.
Yep, there are multiple comments, mine included, saying lofts, not numbers, on the bottom of the club is a more relevant number.
I’ve had the same conversation with others and the answer is your feelings…if the club is not elegal then it is a no brainer … use it
The players of true golfing love of the game know what’s going on with the golf club industry and what there doing with the false truth of distance acquired
I like my hybrids they work very well and the ball gets up in that big blue sky like you talked about and the great shot feeling is now mine
The game of golf is not a easy game to win if that will ever happen but it can be a good experience with the correct knowledge and equipment
If it’s legal use it and feel good
Agreed. If you take a bit of time and dive into it, you can be better served in building your bag based on yardages, spin, launch, etc. It's all about having consistent gapping to play better golf.
I agree with the summary at the end. In golf forums I've learned so much about some golfers mentality. There are people out there still who make a big deal out of what iron they are hitting or others who think hitting a hybrid is cheating. Just play within the rules and have fun.
Then you are seeing the same things I am, and that at least let's me know I'm not imagining it. To me, you're playing the same course, with the same rules, but the gear you can use varies WILDLY. A bag full of hybrids is looked down on because to play those, you must have a low skill level, and if you have a bag full of blades, you must be awesome. That's not necessarily the case, as you know.
Realistically the irons are designed and loft is established with the club at a slight angle when displayed...
the forward press presentation...
it is the proper angle at impact per design
Grip leading the head into impact. Boom.
Simple. Modern clubs have a much lower CG and get the ball airborne more easily. Therefore jacked up lofts is a necessity unless you want your 6 iron to fly as high as a 9 iron. So it is just using technology smartly to generate the correct launch window and increase length
That's exactly what I said in the video. Loft jacking was secondary to the lowering of the CG.
Didn't comment earlier because my mother-in-law (who lived with us) just passed away a few days ago and there are 8 peope with us (as apposed to 3 normally) currently and that will be 10 by the weekend. Phew!!
No cheating involved as the same advantages are available to everyone (subject to affordability and things like that). Not to mention that these advantages eventually work themselves in some form into the pro game as we see with hybrids, Vijay's famous 9-wood, GI clubs, jacked lofts, bigger heads, etc., etc.. Tiger's always saying that most pros use irons with less left than he does and that many will APPEAR to hit their clubs farther because of that. However, amazingly the last time that I checked what Champ was playing with, he had quite traditional lofts on his irons and had gone to a 43 inch driver for more control like Tiger used to do. He still managed to carry an 8-iron 205 yds. at the 3M with a smooth swng with 149 mph ball speed which is long drive type stuff. Incredible.
Tiger's choices point to the fact that there is a "price" to pay for all of this technological advantage in that the golfers are losing some control that they might have if they had more control over their swings and impacts. Tiger has an exceptional amount of this and therefore goes a little more "old school" on these things but blends in technology where it is to his advantage. A higher loft, and slightly higher center of gravity with less offset will give him the potential of a greater range of shots as long as he can control his impact. This is a major advantage in the high precision game of top level pro golf. Tiger also makes it implicitly clear that he judges nothing by what club his playing competitor might hit because he is generally aware of their club setups and will go more by that.
Getting greater height and distance with less loft is obviously to the advantage of golfers that play easier courses with less difficult pins and less demand to change trajectory and flight pattern but as skill increases and the golf is confronted with wanting to perform to a higher level in more difficult conditions, there will always be tradeoffs to consider. Cheers.
So sorry to hear about your mother in law. Sending my best wishes and condolences.
Tiger plays a 36 degree 7 iron, which is weak by today's standards, but then again, there really aren't any standards, haha. Bryson's experiments and launch monitors have taught me that paying more attention to spin, launch angle, and apex height is highly beneficial, no matter the skill level.
@@GolfTestDummy Thanks for your well wishes and condolences. Yeah, I pretty much agree. It's funny but even though this there's this idea of having to work the ball into pins, I only partially agreed with it. As long as I had above 85% of my max ball striking ability, most of the time I could aim at tucked flags without much side action on the ball and land it within 8-10 yrds. of the pin or better for an average iron shot. I often did this even on better courses to the amazement of my playing partners and succeeded most of the time. The biggest thing becomes trajectory and assuring a good strike so that the distance was reliably within the tolerance needed. I also had no problem swinging at varying degrees of force to slightly vary my distance and still get good contact. I was also extremely good at judging the wind and would play straight shots with strong sidewinds and just aim the appropriate amount to one side of the other.
I think that this was all about having a good sense of path and what my trail hand was doing through the strike. I also kept the club on the target line for a long time with low face rotation. I could also hugely vary my trajectory easily just by intuitively using my hands. When I played Hunter Ranch, CA for the first time, I played it in a steady 20-30 mph wind with stronger occasional gusts and broke par on the back nine. I was aiming up to 25 yrds. to the side of a pin and letting it work back and did very well with that. In any case, most of the time a strike with good trajectory, spin, and apex would have been all that I needed even for tucked pins because I could usually get the distance right by having solid consistent strikes fairly close to line that I had chosen. Cheers.
Every golfer can learn to hit down on the ball. Many of the golfers that I know want to play better but do not WORK on the things to make themselves better. Some don't even understand what that means. With the exception of driver in a tee ALL clubs must be some fraction of a downward strike...yes even a 3 wood or driver off the deck. The degree may be miniscule for those longer "woods" but should be down. Iron attack angle should be around 4 degrees and with better players or those who understand will deloft the club regardless of the number on the bottom or degrees of static loft.
I've been making the exact same points in recent videos. Low point control. It's the way the club is designed.
It’s the same question as ‘why don’t we continue with the numbering system for wedges?’ 10 iron vs PW, 11 iron vs GW/AW, 12 iron vs SW. We refer to our wedges by the degree of loft. From now on when my friends ask me what I’m hitting for that 165 yd par 3, I’m gonna say, “My 32 degree wedge.” Who cares about a number stamped on the bottom. It’s only a reference for a general yardage you consistently hit that particular club.
Haha, man I've said the exact same. 10 iron, 11 iron, 6 wedge, etc.
yes, i have now 3,4,5 hybrids and also recently picked up a used 6 hybrid but have not put it into play because winter hit. so the pxg irons are the first ones i've had with graphite shaft and i find that wicked nice because they are very light. my old pings with steel shafts feel like clunkers. i'm 74 yrs old, 13 hdcp and been playing for almost 50 years.
Hybrids are a big help, especially when we lose some speed. Love mine.
Deflofted clubs are a bit of a bandaid, that covers up either a lack of power/speed or of technique. On the other hand, these sticks are legal and can make the game better for many, many people. With that in mind, I'll call it quits.
Yeah, that's been a pretty common response, and one that speaks to the stigma with super game improvement clubs.
The manufacturers are saying that their designs are mandating lower lofts than those historically used. Not sure I buy that. Like you alluded to, I believe it’s because many ams are early releasers, thus adding loft to the club.
Tom Wishon has written extensively about “vanishing loft disease.” However, over the past few years, he’s decreased the lofts on several of his sets of irons, acknowledging that stronger lofts are what the customer demands these days. I can see one club stronger than standard (3-4 degrees), but not 10-12 degrees. As one other commenter stated, gapping is gonna be difficult and you’ll need a six wedge set-up unless you want to play half shots a lot in the 120 yards and in scoring zone.
Yeah, it's worth noting that "traditional" 7 iron lofts are 35 degrees, and now players distance irons are typically 31 or 32 degrees. But Tiger plays a 36 degree 7 iron, while Bryson has his 5 iron at 15 degrees lol. So it seems like it's more about your launch angle and spin rate, rather than skill.
@@GolfTestDummy Launch angle, spin rate, peak height, and descent angle.
Its common to custom fitting. Its part of the process.
My ordered from the manufacture 5 iron was 21 deg., same as my 4 hybrid. I had 2 deg of loft added to it. Difference in carry 5-8 yards from where it was carrying before. Just weird to me.
Alot of it has to do with launch angle and spin. It can vary a lot.
The loft on my Tommy Amour 845s 7 iron from 1998 is 38 degrees.
If I remove the iron numbers off my clubs does it change my game?
Nope, but it does make it difficult to compare apples to apples when you buy new irons, or compare with others golfers 7 irons.
If you have proper gapping from Driver to putter, does it really matter? A jacked 7i is great unless you're missing necessary yardages between a strongly jacked PW and 50 degree.
My thoughts as well in regards to building a set, but rather than numbering irons, maybe a better idea is just to eliminate the number system and stamp lofts on clubs instead.
@@GolfTestDummy The numbers are just a simple way to see what club you're grabbing out of the bag. My wedges are numbered, and I grabbed a 60 vice 50 last year (the bottoms were a bit dirty) and... well,... An L vs G would likely have prevented that.
Haha, true, and good point.
i got a set of pxg irons and they feel great and go further but the 5 iron goes 170yds and about 20 feet off the ground. i already hit a low ball and now too low. i got fitted hitting into a screen which i guess was a mistake when you can't see the actual flight. i don't like it.
That was my ONLY gripe with the 2019 TA 845s. The loft was aggressive and long irons were too low. That's why snatched up a couple of hybrids.
Play with what works for you.
Agreed. And forget what anyone has to say.
Na it's not its just the changing game. I was playing an 35 year old set of titleist dtr irons while I'm waiting on my new TM QI10. The titleist hit 20 yard shorter than my old srixons and that's fine I really don't care you just have to know your carry #. Don't have n OCD FIT about it. 😂 and yeah I have ocd😂
Man, going from 35 year old clubs to TM Qi10s. That's a hell of a jump in tech. You're gonna love it!
My theory is that when a Pro hits a club that they de-lofted to a 30 degrees, it will go further than a non de-lofted 30 degree club (with the same clubhead speed), because they are compressing/trapping the ball against the ground.
I may be completely wrong, but just a thought.
I have no idea if you're right, but I feel the same. Trapping it against the ground a bit is almost like a double hit, meaning twice the power being transferred.
Chad, I don’t believe it’s cheating. Whatever clubs you play and their lofts are not going to put the ball in the hole any quicker, that takes swing improvements and course management. If it did, every game improvement, and especially, super game improvement clubs would reduce your handicap, and they don’t. It just makes playing more enjoyable. Ex. I played with a guy recently, and I hit my 8 iron to about 160 yards, he hit his 8 iron to about 175 (he has super game improvement irons and I don’t ). He bragged about hitting it farther than me. I said, you should, you’re playing super game improvement irons with an 8 iron loft that is normally a 5 iron (my 8 iron is closer to a traditional loft). Then I told him, after the hole was finished, that he double bogeyed and I had a birdie. So, who truly has the bragging rights? Play whatever clubs you want and only worry about your game and how you perform, after all, the competition is the course and not the other players. Cheers.
I really like what Cleveland does and Hogan did, by putting the lofts on the clubs. Honestly, that number is far more relevant than the number of the iron.
How is using game improvement irons cheating? You still have to make the shot distance wise as well as on line to target.
Very true, and I agree, but I've seen a lot of people make the argument that all the tech that's been put into clubs now makes it much easier to get a decent result than it should be.
The pros have the technique, the physical gifts, and more or less unlimited access to the best fitting technology available today. So, they are able to determine the best fit in equipment for their desired result. Is it cheating to do that when such things were not available 20 years ago? I would say no, OBTW, their livelihood depends on how well they score, so of course they find the best equipment for their swing. Knowing how far / high / how much spin you get with each club is what's important. The number on the bottom is there to make sure you get the right club in your hand.
Yeah, I've been saying for years that the pros have EVERY tool at their beckon call. We just don't get that same treatment.
I agree, it is cheating, yourself that is. It discourages development of your skill. Yet, playing and having fun should be enough.
You know, I've had the same thought, but I'm not really sure I've made my mind up yet. It's really dependant on how much time you have to work on your game, what you want out of golf, your physical abilities, etc.
There is no standard loft. The question is, how do you take your speed and match optimal flight? A slow player needs no modifications. They need as much loft as possible to use every club.
If you loft jacked a 7i as you suggested, then the 6,5,4 would be unusable for a slow swing player.
At the same time, if you give a fast player standard clubs they either have to manually deloft oherwise they can never get to optimal launch angles at the low loft end of the clubs.
It’s simple, the clubs should be customized for each player and their game.
Amateurs can’t simply deloft to get more distance that is playable. The delofting is predicated on clubhead speed, dynamic loft/spin loft.
If you give a crappy golfer a 6i lofted like their 3i, they won’t generate enough spin to make the ball fly…that’s why they can’t hit a 3i.
Exactly, and so most amateurs need to swap longer irons out for hybrids. You need speed.
The PGA mandates everything else, why are they not controlling club lofts too? Perhaps this is the way for regular golfers to beat the new ball regulations, by using stronger lofted clubs.
You know, that's a great point. They put restrictions on COR for drivers. But, loft jacking came long before the golf ball rollback. So I'm not sure.
Bottom line...nah, not fooling anybody - I'm lucky enough to have a simulator in my shed and my clubs are "rated" by me with two primary parameters in mind, (1) carry distance and (2) run out distance. The rest is smoke n mirrors...
Yeah, that's kind of the rub, right? Can you get proper gapping and are your carry distances consistent.
Cheating or not amateurs with pre lofted clubs still can’t compete on the PGA, I would think that for pros who don’t even pay for their clubs, hitting off perfect lies, having a caddy helping with yardages and reading putts, fans on the course looking out for their ball, perfectly manicured greens, nice soft raked sand traps all the time etc, is more like cheating if compared to the amateur who has to play on some ratty public course…..so maybe playing pre lofted clubs can narrow the gap a little bit. Just saying 😅
Wow..... you know, I've made that same point, that pros get EVERY advantage, but I hadn't applied it to the question in this video. You're absolutely right. Hell, they get everything and STILL go out and shoot 76 and 78 all the time.
Chad, is it cheating that they’ve done something to make the game much more enjoyable for high handicappers, outside the professional levels there are way way more high handicappers out there than low ones. With the golf ball advancements stronger lofts are gonna stay on the green more often no matter what number you put on the bottom of the iron.
Better golfers really don’t like it when someone reaches a par 3 with a 7 iron while they’re hitting a 6 iron
One thing Bryson has really opened my eyes to recently is that it's more about launch angles and spin rates at the pro level. Pretty cool stuff.
@@GolfTestDummy that goes to your point about club design allowing strong lofts to hit the ball higher than they used to
Pros do that all the time! They deloft all their clubs! So, is it cheating? Draw your own conclusion!
Yeah, one of the things that sparked this for me was Bryson in a recent video talking about how he has basically changed all of his lofts based on spin rates.
Seriously? Who cares how you deloft your clubs. If you can't modify the loft dynamically with your setup and swing mechanics then have at it with modifying the club face. There will be trade offs (i.e. distance gaps, getting approach shots to stay on the green) similar to deciding what ball to use. We're all limited to 14 clubs (and no swapping out clubs during the round) and if there isn't a rule about how each club face needs to be lofted then it's fine. End of discussion. Next you'll be asking if it's cheating if we don't all use the same type of putter, or grips, or shaft type, etc. Let's move on to something more interesting.
Well, I guess if I'd been able to make it to the PGA Show this year I could've made videos about the liquor stick, Bubbie Golf cigars, or $180 golf shirts. But, I see a lot of people bringing up loft jacking as basically cheating, or at least lying to yourself, so I thought I'd bring it up and see how everyone felt. Seems more relevant to golf in my opinion than that other stuff.