Angel - 5x16 "Shells" Reaction
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- I react to another episode of Angel, enjoy! Think I'm very much still in mourning but great episode nonetheless.
Angel aired on The WB.
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You mentioned in the previous episode that you thought there would be no way to explore the Fred and Wes relationship now that Illyria was here but I think that the final scene between Wes and Illyria shows that there is much more to be explored between them 🥰
Atta’boi, Liam! Way to get back on the horse man, that’s all I’m going to say about that. Stay frosty.
Though the loss of Fred is a bitter, bitter blow. As Illyria, Amy Acker gets to do some astonishing work, and stands out easily in the last few episodes as one of the greatest actors in all the Buffyverse. I know the pain is raw, but be comforted by the fact that there's some of the best TV ever coming up.
Of all the reasons it sucks we never got a Season 6, the biggest reason might be that we didn't get to see what Joss was planning to do with Illyria. I feel like it would've been fascinating, especially in a show like Angel that has always had such interesting things to say about the duality of man, via the Angel/Angelus dynamic. I feel like they were heading towards a story where Fred might've started bleeding into Illyria, and the two would have to find some balance. Given that eventually there is even an Angel/Illyria romance in the comics, who knows what could've ended up happening!
I think it was established that the plan for season 6 was that Ilyria was going to morph into Fred more on a regular basis, as she was able to have Fred's memories.
@@KS-xk2so Please do not spoiler any upcoming series or, in this case, comic developments.
As Liam has mentioned on several occasions here during his watch of the series, he prefers to stay free of any spoilers.
"She was just curious.....I thank I hate her a little bit for that." oh just a fucking heartbreaking line and a profound lens into the complexity of grief.
Amy Acker is such an incredible actress 👏🏽
Illyria is a cool concept and I like that it let Amy play such a different character. I quote Illyria's "Unimpressive" too often.
Me too. I stil let out a stoic "unimpressive" from time to time.
I do wonder if it inspired Immortan Joe's line "Mediocre" in Fury Road.
Ive written some buffy/angel fanfic including illyria.
I sometimes randomly yell Illyria quotes too, so I can relate!
@@4Tom4lepus4 lol the other one I say too often is the God-king of the primordium quote 😳
"The girl of your dreams loved you. That's more than most people ever get."
I will say I do really like Illyria. Solid performance. I think she partly came from all the Shakespeare readings Joss's 'favourite' cast members used to do. She was definitely a favourite.
Respect to soulless Harmony for actually trying to be sort of comforting in her own way.
I mean if the name Illyria didn't come from Shakespeare I'd be worried
Your reactions are always the best. It's because you're genuine no matter how big or small we go on a real journey. It's never put on and I enjoy watching you processing. I hope you still "enjoy" where the series goes as we hurtle towards the end but understand the sense of loss, change and grief
I don't know if you're familiar with the poem Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley, but Illyria's storyline in this episode always reminds me of it. There's several references - she calls herself a "God-king" and Ozymandias is "King of kings", she has a sarcophagus and Ozymandias was an Egyptian pharaoh, we see her let the dust of her old army trickle through her fingers which links to the "lone and level sands" covering the wreck of Ozymandias' forgotten empire. There's even a broken statue which fits the description in the poem exactly ("two vast and trunkless legs of stone... nothing besides remains"). And as she's having her epiphany that her power and influence all died away millennia ago - which is the overarching theme of the poem, too - there's several shots of her with the statue in the foreground.
Look on my works ye mighty, and despair!
Nothing lasts forever. Love that poem. It reminds me of another favourite of mine, by Robert Frost, Nothing Gold Can Stay, which is featured in the movie The Outsiders, and is also about how nothing is truly permanent in this life, but thats part of what makes things truly beautiful.
15 year old me never got over this. For me, the hardest death to accept in the Buffyverse . I know it’s hard but you can finish it you’ve come this far.
"Oh, now I remember. Winifred Burkle is the shell I'm in" - Illyria 😢
Our beloved Amy Acker gives an absolute masterclass in acting in this episode; the way she plays every aspect (the intense physicality, brutalness of actions, slightly stilted Shakespearean speech pattern and emotionless AND emotional responses) of Illyria is otherworldly and brilliant 💙
ILLYRIA'S OUTFIT! 😍
"There's love. There's hope... for some. There's hope that you'll find something worthy. That your life... will lead you to some joy... that after everything... you can still be surprised" - Wes 😭💔😭
And I adore Kim Richey's hauntingly beautiful 'A Placed Called Home' playing over the bookend (that smile on Fred's face as she leaves home to make her mark on this world!) to this AMAZING two-parter 🥺
@2:54 … lol 😅😇
I like how you took note of Illyria’s body language, how she was adjusting to the new body, and Amy does a phenomenal job at separating the two characters in every way.
Glad no one bugged you for the next reaction. Honestly, it’s sad knowing you’re almost done with the series, so do take your time. 😁
I recently finished Angel for the first time. I love Illyria. She has to be my favorite character in the show. Amy acker has such a good range as an actor.
IMO Lorne didn’t detect Knox in song because Knox hadn’t decided yet to pick Fred to embody his goddess. It was only after working with her and falling for her that he decided Fred was “worthy”.
Illyria is one of my favorite characters in the series and I really like seeing the different performance from Amy Acker, it kinda reminds me of River Tam from Firefly
The discussion and speculation of Angel Season 6 is interesting. It is worth noting that Episode 17 was being filmed when they got the news that the show was ending. Although, at least one more episode of Season 5 appears to have been largely preserved without major rewrites. It's also not clear that Season 5 was written with a Season 6 in mind. After all, both BTVS and Angel had 5-year contracts with The WB that were expiring, and BTVS 5 was definitely written as an alternate Series Finale.
It's possible that the Fred/Illyria story arc was conceived as a possible (but not necessary) buildup to a Series Finale. But that's only a discussion to be had in hindsight, among those who watch to the end.
Amy Acker was brilliant as Illyria as well as Root on Person of Interest.
Root is probably her greatest work. One of my all time favorite characters.
Fred and Cordelia are the most gut wrenching deaths in the Buffyverse. 😭😭😭😭
Right they’re were the only 2 girls in the A-Team and they both were loved very much and they both died in sad ways. 😭😢
It's interesting that the two characters I despise most in all of Buffverse are ordinary humans. Knox and Warren. Probably because they are just ordinary humans who don't have the excuse of being evil demons. They made their choices, and they are responsible for killing the two purest, sweetest characters. I'm with you, Knox can burn in hell along with Warren. It's testament to how good these shows are that we can become so attached to these fictional characters they evoke these emotions in us. I'm sorry you're having to go through this, but as you've seen you're not alone. And I think you did a good job with your post show analysis. Better than I would have been able to after the first time I watched it. You have great insights, I really appreciate your reactions.
Illyria even though only on the last few episodes was one of the greatest characters in The Buffyverse. It was heartbreaking to see Fred disappear into Illyria, but we just know more heartbreak is to come for these two. Season 5 of Angel was incredible great story arc, and brilliant writing. Wesley has the greatest arc of any character in The Buffyverse. The pain Wesley feels at the loss of Fred you can see, his actions are driven purely by the intensity of the situation. Nothing Wesley ever did was for his own gratification, he genuinely always tried to do the right thing. He is truly human. He even was willing to kill his own father to protect Fred!
Amy Acker is fantastic as Illyria. She's one of my favorite Buffyverse characters.
to be fair, Buffy was very inconsistent on the pronunciation of "Angelus" for at least 2 years. I think I even recall a mispronunciation in Angel in an early season.
Amy Acker was so good in this episode. I also feel like having her there makes it hurt less. You wouldn't think so, you'd think you'd want a clean break, but it's actually worse when you love a character, they get killed off, and then there's nothing to remind you and nothing's changed and they're just gone like they were never there in the first place. :stares into the middle distance:
Well, I know you lost your cinnamon roll, but just think of it as gaining a blueberry scone. (Too soon?)
The thesis of Angel "When it doesn't matter what you do, all that matters is what you do " I love this, it is so powerful and animating to my own life and seems even more pertinent in the midst of the world today. It was said in Season 1, but continues to be ongoing theme
Season 1 Angel was mostly villain of the week as the show found its feet. The quote, which is actually "If nothing we do matters, then all that matter is what we do.", was first said in Season 2 Episode 16, called Epiphany. It's towards the end of the episode... last scene we see Kate unfortunately.
You're correct though, from that point on, it was the main point of Angel. It's basically the stated thesis of the Series Finale.
@@KS-xk2so Thank you for the correction, I should have done more homework before posting. My comment was just to highlight that persevering when it does not matter, knowing you can only lose, but staying in the fray anyway is so helpful and inspirational to me.
@@hkwhsu I agree. That theme is all over the series finale.
SPOILERS
Especially the end scene, and the Anne scene.
Always a good ep when you need the pillow!
You are phenomenal reactor and genuinely make me feel what you’re feeling while watching angel and Buffy. I understand the time needed. You are honest and I appreciate the time you take when you make your videos. Sending support from Canada:)
Fred's death was a devastating blow, but Amy does some of her best work as Illyria, and Illyria ended up my favorite character in the whole series once it ended. I wish we'd gotten to see more of what was going to happen.
yeah the boys seem to be the 5 stages of grief.
If you're half as fond of Amy Acker as you are of Fred, you'll love her in Person of Interest.
Can't blame Wesley for being more of a shoot first, ask questions later kind of guy right now and I love it.
Alexis is such an underrated actor. It is so much more difficult to pull off different variations of a character than playing two totally different characters. Amy Acker is a good actress but I don´t think playing Illyria is a bigger challenge than playing Fred. And it is clear now how Joss´s favoritisms affect the opportunities certain actors got.
This arc will also prove that we wasted so much time making season 5 the Angel and Spike show while this show actually has more than two good characters that did not deserve to be sidelined for more than half a season.
She's blue
I'm blue
Da ba dee da ba die 🎶😢
In the same week that Alleybox reacted on Patreon to the Body, you apologize for not speaking much, as she did.
Reacting without saying anything is still reacting. Don't apologize.
The Illyria-arc is probably my favorite of Angel, even though it’s so painful to watch (the Pylea one being a very close second), and you will come to enjoy it because it’s very powerful.
As is the very complex dynamic between Wesley and Illyria because they have some of the best moments and conversations in the entirety of the Buffyverse.
Alexis’s performance and Wesley’s monologue about losing Fred in his arms never fails to make me emotional. One more thing: The fighting sequence between Team Angel and Illyria is my favorite in the Buffyverse (also, the one with them against the Beast in Angel season 4 is second on my list. Another one is Buffy (+ Giles) vs. Dark Willow in season 6 of BTVS, which is third). I’m so excited to see you carry on with the remaining episodes :)
It just dawned on me that Knox is Illyria's Qua Ha San (however u spell it), she was sorta bound to him. Wesley killing him, it was like the duties got transferred to him. Yes eventually Fred's feelings started to show through, but I think initially Illyria saw Wesley as Knox's successor in a sense. Knox's line about Wolfram & Hart doing things on their timetable, is a call back to the episode with Gunn losing his intelligence. The doctor told him the Partners wanted him to have and if he doesn't now, then they don't want him to, simply so he could sign that paper and bring Illyria in, which became another notch in their downfall.
It's very, very small consolation, but Illyria didn't choose Fred to kill. Honestly, Illyria didn't choose to kill anyone. Knox set this whole thing up. The truly evil villain in this situation was Knox, and thankfully he's been taken out. I kinda feel sorry for Illyria actually. Dragged back into the land of the living in a time when her entire world has been dead for thousands of years and not knowing what to do now.
This was a good reaction, don't worry! Regarding your question about Lorne's powers not working, I think it's because he's now using them differently than he did in season 2. At Caritas, Lorne only read people who wanted to be read. Knox, on the other hand, was deliberately hiding something. Lorne may sometimes be able to uncover secrets, but I interpret his powers as working best when the singer is cooperating.
POSSIBLE SPOILERS
To me, he's using his powers in a way they aren't meant to be used, another sign that his joining Angel Investigations may have moved him away from his true purpose at Caritas.
Honestly, I don’t think that Lorne ever did read Knox. If you remember early in the season (I do not remember which episode, possibly the first or second), Fred told Knox she wasn’t going to send him to Lorne. She naïvely decided to trust him. I think Lorne thinks he read Knox because he was assigned to do that for everyone in the company, but I don’t think he ever actually did.
I'd love to see Dark Willow Vs Illyria!!!
Or just see Willow and Illyria working together as a team
One of the oldest Buffyverse discussion. Who do you think would win in a fight Illyria or Glory?
Illyria in a good fight. Glory is the only character in the live action that could take her on though. Despite what people think I don’t think Dark Willow would stand a chance against Illyria.
Illyria. While I'm not sure which is stronger, Illyria has extra powers that Glory does not (time control, Dawn-free portal opening), and she'd also fight smarter than Glory. Plus, if the fight goes on long enough there's a risk that Glory would turn into Ben and immediately be killed.
Illyria and Glory would scrap toe to toe for hours, then Glory would eventually turn into Ben, and Illyria would make soup out of him.
I like watching Amy Acker stretch her acting muscles even if it means Fred's death.
People really aren't good about potential spoiler stuff. Hinting how long characters last, where they'll go with arcs or whatever 🙄
I understand the love you have for Fred and/or other Fictional Characters! I mean- Buffy’s birthday was earlier this week- she turned 41! You’d better believe I celebrated it! I don’t always celebrate birthday’s of Fictional Characters, but when I do…….. It’s going to be Buffy or someone from the #BuffyVerse! So, I totally 100% get it! Sending you lots of love, hugs, warm thoughts, & positivity from the coast of South Carolina! Love you, Liam!!! You’re AWESOME!!! I absolutely LOVE your reactions, and the way you love & appreciate these characters(in the Buffy Verse) reminds me of how much I love & care about them, too! 💗💗💗💗 Please do not ever change!!! You’re amazing, just the way you are!
Don't worry about not being able to make many comments during the episode - we're only here to watch you suffer. (I went thru it 18 years ago.) On the other hand Amy Acker is really killing it in the new role.
You'll get through this 😔 As much as I love Fred, I really enjoyed arc. It gave Amy something totally new to do---losing Kristine (Joyce) and losing Amber (Tara) were both much harder for me. Plus, we would only have had 6 more episodes of Fred anyway.
17:14 Joyce took a back seat in S4, but in S5 she appeared in every single episode except one until her death.
35:27 In season 4 Jasmine works a spell to block Lorne from sensing her plans, though they don't realize this until later. Otherwise, Lorne's powers and their failure are both rather vague.
43:06 Oh, you mean like killing Doyle immediately after ripping Buffy and human-Angel apart?!
Nah I think the Fred storyline has more depth in the loss but it also rebounds into an awesome story of rebirth almost. It's almost the death of Fred's innocence in a way I guess. Idk.
It's been about two weeks since I watched, a hole in the world, a hole in my heart, A HOLE IN MY HEAD." 🤣😂💀 protect this man. 🤣😂
it's not really a spoiler since it's revealed in this episode but Illyria is still Fred on some level, when she says "when her brain collapsed it channeled some of her memories into me" is Illyria trying to explain it away because even she doesn't fully understand the extent of it, and the evil doctor saying Fred's soul was destroyed was simply lying or mistaken, it's interesting they shot the Fred driving away scene literally right after the reveal that Fred is still part of Illyria since it is contradictory when you understand what I am saying. It is the whole point of the character and what makes it intriguing and interesting is Fred is in there somewhere only she is not the one driving.
Given my limited knowledge of the post series comics (I’ve only heard bits and never read) I assumed maybe her soul kind of fused with Illyria’s essence. Her souls was “consumed” because it was fundamentally changed into something new. The base personality and memories are there influencing the new “soul” even though Illyria makes up the majority of the combinations. Idk. It’s all just fun to think about.
Lol I think sitting quietly is to be expected for this one XD
In the episode where everyone was being checked by Lorne Knox sad he could go if Fred wanted him to. They where kinda flirty at that point and she just waved it of, so Lorne never got to see him sing.
I always think it was cruel that the jollity of Smile Time is immediately before Hole in the World 🎩
I can't understand people who don't like Fred, and I don't want to. She's the literal best.
ALL HAIL THE PROFANED ILLERIA GODKING OF THE PRIMORDIUM, SHAPER OF THINGS!!!
Interesting analysis of this episode, thank you so much for your insights here.
I would have suggested to watch episodes 5x15 and 5x16 together, as I feel they belong together.
But each of those two episodes on their own are already quite sad and dark, so maybe watching both of them in succession would have been too much to take in all at once.
The next episode 5x17 aired after a month break, the beginning of the last third of season 5 so-to-say.
There is some info on the dvd commentary for 5x17 that, during the making / taping of this episode, Joss Whedon found out and then told everyone that the show had been canceled.
And a certain plot point of the last episode that you were unfortunately spoilered about some time ago would not have happened at that point if the show had not been canceled.
Hope you will enjoy the final entry of this series as much as I did, and I am already curious about your opinion on both season 5 and especially the entire Angel series.
Take care and stay safe.
Re. "(tens of) thousands would die" - if Illyria's army had been there, billions could have died. From a utilitarian standpoint saving Fred may have been the better option.
I've said that this season of Angel is my favorite Buffyverse season, but I think I feel that way because of the run of episodes from Smile Time to the end, which I think is the strongest series of episodes Whedon has done outside of Firefly. It was only about a year removed from Firefly, so I wonder what impact doing Firefly and losing Firefly had on his writing and energy this year.
“If her army was waiting…”; yes, but they didn’t know that part! They kinda were picking the best of bad options based on the little info they did have. Personally, I remember thinking that was the ultimate irony; Illyria’s victory was so complete that her army already laid down their arms before our ancestors crawled out of their caves. The goddess with timeshifting abilities was beaten by time.
Welp. RIP Knox and Holden Webster again. Byeeeeeeeeeeeee
Honestly. I think this story arc was the best one for Amy.
Illyria is such a bigger character to flex her acting chops with. She nailed it.
Fred's death episode was stellar. Amy and Alexa were absolutely amazing in their last scene together. The extras talk about how they rehearsed it to a "T" to nail it. And it looked like it was a breeze for them to go thru when watching it.
I love Wes, but my heart sank when he stabbed Gunn. I thought he killed him. And poor Gunn. This tore him to shreds way before he even got stabbed.
There was a close up still shot of Wesley's face looking like "dark Wesley" and it made me think of a side by side callback of him in his introduction into Buffy. The huge shift of personality is so polar opposite.
I'm still so upset by this plot. I get why they did it, so they couldn't just simply bring her back. But by having Fred's soul being consumed by the fires of resurrection, she doesn't even get to go to an afterlife 🥺
they had plans for Fred to come back but they got canceled. So what they said about her soul was bs. or just something they thought would happen. the comic, which is canon, continues the story. it picks up from the final shot of the final episode. but lets just say Fred was still in there and was getting stronger. enough to come back but deciding to share her body with Illyria. so let's say there's a huge battle against powerful enemies, well Fred can't handle that, so Illyria comes out to play. that is what they ended up doing in the comic and where it was supposed to go on the show if it hadn't been canceled. but sadly Wes is still dead.
@@DCFCfanatic COMICS SPOILERS
This is why I find it amusing when people complain about things that do get continued and/or resolved in the comics and refuse to read them. They don't seem to have any excuse except not wanting to read comics. And the original comment kinda shows why they should. And Wes is dead but is now at the powers beck and call just as any AtS S5 character will be when they die. So Fred sharing Illyria's body is a good thing.
I never believed that. Just because that one dude says it's true, they just accept it? I don't know why they (or we) just accept evil scientist man's word as truth. I do not believe him.
The awful way our heroes consistently treat Gunn combines the worst of how people view African Americans as troublemakers and the worst of how people view men as disposable. He is a lifelong champion for good with a tragic backstory, losing his sister to vampires. Yet, he is always treated like he has nothing to offer but muscle, expected to be a team player, do his part, not have any feelings, not need anyone else's support. They coddle Fred, they go out of their way to ensure Angel is set up to succeed, yet do nothing for Gunn except judge and blame him whenever he makes a mistake. They are all supposed to be Gunn's friends too yet tiptoed around him like he was an abusive boyfriend while showering Fred with love and support when they were clearly going through a rough patch last season.
Also, they all signed up to lead Wolfram and Hart. Since then, they have all done things or gave orders that no doubt lead to innocents getting hurt on many many occasions. Yet, even before Fred died, they acted like Gunn "sold out" the most by getting his legal skills upgrade. It shouldn't even be a question if Gunn is to blame for Fred's death and he is clearly beside himself with guilt. Yet, no one is there for him or reassures him at all, they just revert to the same silent judgement they oozed when him and Fred had that relationship rough patch.
Wesley is the biggest culprit of this and always comes across as such a sanctimonious white knight whenever Fred is involved. He didn't even learn his lesson after his petty jealousy over Fred and Gunn getting together made him keep the fake "father will kill the son" prophecy to himself instead of sharing it with Fred and Gunn, leading him to literally ruin Connor's entire life. Really turns my stomach to think there are thousands of Gunns out there in real life, under-appreciated and looked down upon by otherwise "noble" people who don't even know or care that they're doing it.
Well said! Sanctimonious is a good word to describe Wesley.
Harmony is so good in this one.
Dude, I was seriously wondering if you'd EVER come back to finish up Angel.
Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof are totally amazing in this, just like the last episode. 💔😭
You said that « you don’t think you will be able to recover from the loss and that it sounds kinda pathetic ». Well, I don’t think it’s pathetic.
I always liked Fred and I always liked the show but I’m much more of a die hard Buffy fan and felt more attached to the characters of this show than angel’s.
But…. This death is for me the most heartbreaking of all. The writers and the actors did an amazing job. It’s unfair, brutal, coming out of nowhere and it's permanent… like in real life (except for the ancient demon rising part maybe...😏).
That’s why, even 20 years later, I can’t even talk about that last scene with Fred to someone without almost breaking into tears! And let’s say I’m not considered as a very emotional person!
It’s a painfully brillant storyline to me. And even though it’s unfair to Fred’s character, I think that’s what good writing and acting is supposed to do. Brought up true feelings and emotions.
I don't know if you know this but Joss Whedon continued the story in comic format and got to finish storylines. so season 6 of Angel is out there as a comic book. continues right from where the show left off. and Whedon always planned on bringing fred back....and he did. that part where Illyria is talking about a spark, something like that...that's Fred. her soul wasn't destroyed. she was still there but small, growing inside until she was finally able to communicate. let's just say she then had to share her body with Illyria. If there's a big fight, Illyria will come out and help.
@@DCFCfanatic I don't know if you know this but, as far as I know, Liam here prefers to stay unspoilered, as he enjoys watching the series and possibly reading the season 6 comics without knowing any further story developments in advance.
Illyria saved Season 5 for me personally and was the best thing that could happen to Fred's character. I wished we could have seen a whole season while she was Illyria and not just the final few episodes though...
People message you on Facebook? That's so invasive...I don't know how they haven't heard you explain your scheduling 1000 times.
I hate Wesley stabbing Gunn. Gunn not telling them about his involvement did not let her die. It wouldn't have stopped it if he ran and told them and by the time he got to talk to them she had already died. Remember when Wes got shot in the gut to help Gunn? But that amazing friendship hasn't mattered since s4 I guess...
Him killing Knox was fine with me. Though it was reckless in the moment. Wes says Fred was "the best person" meaning she was really pure (as he referred to her before) but he can't quite follow that ideology if he's going by what she would've wanted. Doubt she would have wanted Gunn stabbed. Though Fred was quite vengeful 😂
Amy's physicality IS amazing for sure. Glad she was able to work on the character and present it well.
I can't quite blame Illyria for what happened. I would blame Knox. He chose Fred for it and Illyria was just released through dust with no control. She didn't choose her and it wasn't her plan. Knox was disgusting.
Also, yes, imagine killing a main character then not mentioning it 😂That would suck😐
As for example Cordelia. Can't believe "why we fight" followed "you're welcome"
@@meganprice5124 Agreed!😭
I just straight up hate Wesley but thanks for calling him out.
I think they made Wesley stab Gunn to get symphaty for him. It always felt forced.
Sorry you’re feeling Blue, So does that mean if you were green, you would die?
(My attempt at a very bad joke)
For those of you that are too young and don’t get the reference listen to Eiffel 65 “Blue”
You’ll never stop missing Fred, but Illyria is pretty awesome in her own way. I rewatched this and Buffy so many times over the last 15-20 years but I’m STILL not over her death.
Not a single comment asking when your next video will be? That is extremely amazing considering how many problems you had with that in the past.
They just keep killing your favorite characters and even when they don't they tease you with a return and then take it away. At least once you finish Angel you can watch the anniversary specials without worrying about spoilers.
he can read the comics where are canon and find out some big surprises. or just wiki the stories.
Hopefully you'll enjoy blue Fred. I prefer her blue.
Same
Where did you get the Amy pillow?
I’m blue too over this. :(
Great analysis as always Liam. It was during the production of this episode the cancellation came. And I think it kind of shows. There is something off with this episode. I suspect they initially had different plans for Illyria and her "kingdom", but they had to rewrite it because of the cancellation. Just my theory though.
from what they said, nothing was changed. they left everything as is. but maybe that feeling about something being off is because Fred was planned as coming back, it happened in canon comic book season 6. i think it's cuz there might be little clue hidden there.
The series was cancelled during the production of the next episode 5x17.
The exact cancellation circumstances are explained in detail in the dvd commentary of that episode.
Illyria>>>>>>>>>>>
It's not unsurprising that you're still dealing with the shock of losing Fred. As hard as it was to lose her, it's a real shame we didn't get a couple years of watching where her (Illyria) character ends up because where they go from here is really pretty interesting.
WHO DIDN'T LIKE FRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????
I would not say I that I did not like her but she certainly was not my favorate character on Angel.
Amy Acker is an amazing actress, but there were other characters who made me love this series long before Fred initially appeared.
And Fred was a fine addition to Angel's crew, but imo the character Illyria gave Amy a better chance to show off her acting range.
I personally didn´t like her much because I could see the writers imposition that we had to see her as perfect and that she had no flaws and every guy must love her. Willow was actually an underdog and you could see how people mistreated her and her dark side was explored. Fred was worshipped by everybody all the time and that didn´t make her very relatable.
@@pablogcano81 Yeah agreed! Fred was at times cloyingly sweet and overly naive, like she felt to me like she was a guy's fantasy of a sweet, smart girl - it's why Wesley's attraction to her always felt a bit weird to me (I'm well aware I'm in a minority here). I love Amy Acker and I think she's phenomenal as Illyria but I find Fred pretty annoying. (I don't like Willow either, so I guess that character archetype isn't really for me.)
@@joeypotter6051 I always felt Wesley´s attraction towards Fred was more related to his self steem and need of validation, specially after she chose ¨the muscle¨over him. But I never understood why he was pinning over her as if she were superior to him. Wesley has so many virtues you would think he would eventually get tired of being rejected over men like Gunn or Knox. In season 5 it would have been more realistic for Gunn and Wesley to have women drooling over them instead of Fred getting another guy who adores her. I also think she can be very emotionally manipulative.
Unimpressive.
Not you, Liam, you the man.