I always felt Starfleet Intelligence was the most effective Intelligence Agency out there (especially if you count Section 31). Yes the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were amazing at their job with fearsome reputations, but SI did everything quietly and without too much fuss and look who came out on top in the end.
The Tal SHiar and Obsidian Order are like the CIA - they get results but there's also always a chance they make a very bad, very public blunder because their methods aren't passive. Starfleet Intelligence is more like the NSA - it's just a metric ton of passive monitoring and long range sensors. It may not give the fine detail that the others do (though S31 usually fills in those gaps anyway) but the sheer volume of raw data they get without ever setting foot on foreign soil is impressive, and they almost never run into complications or political blowback because their methods are all passive. If the targets of SI surveillance had perfect opsec, SI would never produce any intel at all, so those targets have nobody to blame but themselves. As for S31...I don't see much difference between S31 and the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order. They're all morally grey, seem to serve their own interests above the interests of the people they're supposed to represent, and have methods that eventually lead to public outcry and backlash because inevitably, when you intervene directly with people and don't kill them, eventually someone is going to talk. They also all engage in straight up torture, which nobody is ever going to support. One of the few things in Trek I didn't like was when the Order interrogated Picard. IRL torture doesn't get results - 99 times out of 100, the victim just tells you what they think you want to hear to make the pain stop. It doesn't actually "break" people most of the time, they just change from being defiant and saying nothing to lying to their interrogators. IIRC Picard didn't give up anything valuable in that scene either, but he did "break" and that's not how it works. If Trek wanted to make a statement about torture, Picard should've stayed resolute and never broken, because that's probably what would've happened IRL anyway.
The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order made the mistake of being secret police as well as spies. They made many Romulans and Cardassians despise them which is why the Cardassians had a revolution after the Obsidian Order was defeated by the Dominion.
I like this new story telling narration style. Feels like a more higher production value and more... Star Treky. Like a historical vid a character in the show might watch in the show. Good stuff!
And Mass Effect borrowed heavily from Star Trek. The Krogan are Klingons, the Asari borrow from Betazoids. The Cerberus organization is a hybrid of section 31 and the organization of human extremists from late enterprise. The reapers are the Borg.
@@johnsteiner3417 The Mass Effect creators stated that they were inspired by Star Trek The Next Generation and other 80s sci fi, which is why the Citadel embassies could've been a TNG set.
Thanks for this. The Mars synth attack was a bigger folly than the Omarion Nebula. I mean, they essentially made their own people an endangered species because of what? The Admonition? I love everything Romulan, but the Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash make some monumentally stupid decisions for a millennia old organization.
Yeah. It made no sense to destroy the synths and all the ships that would have saved their people right when the Federation was working to save the Romulans. Why not wait until afterwards? The whole thing made no sense.
As you've got the tal shiar on your mind are you going to be doing the rest of the romulan characters missions that you missed out? Being brainwashed by sela and the "Charva friend or foe" stories were really interesting to play through.
@@gmradio2436 no. Play as a klingon allied romulan and you will play the story arc "allies" where you meet charva. Allies comes after "from the ashes" and then "allies" and then "in shadows" where you become a tal shiar agent to infiltrate the agency.
An interesting implication of Picard s1 that I wish they'd followed up on is that, with the fall of the Star Empire, the Tal'Shiar seem to be busily working behind the scenes to take over the Federation from within. They remind me of the Dai Li from AtLA; their loyalty is always to themselves.
kindaa makes you think of couple of Nero's crew members i noticed one ro two of them even more shifty and more observant than the others who was just miners like Nero was, just by their behaviors like holding back in fighting using a point a logic to get more info by letting kirk in to get pike to spill info while being rescued while some of the big headed Romulans just went in like berserkers at a frat party, one stood back observing but disappointed at what happened not at the federation but his own people the one little scene that some just looks over but strikes the eye of an observant viewer, that makes one say interesting.
This is why I hope they focus on the Tal Shiar and the Free State Romulans. STO went a different way, but it was similar in some ways as well. If they ever did a new 25th century show that would be a fantastic place to concentrate and tell the next part of the story of the path to Ni'Var that we see in ST: Discovery.
I don't know if the Obsidian Order is worse. I can't see the Obsidian Order allowing the destruction of the Cardassian Homeworld and leaving so much of their people behind. The Obsidian Order for all their brutality is at least loyal to Cardassia.
If it saved the Union as a whole, the Obsidian Order might sacrifice Cardasia. They put more emphasis on the Government over the home world. That said, they would not do so lightly.
The T'kon Tal'shiar stuff sounded more like anti-Tal'shiar propaganda than a real story. It's a common trope to declare the enemies to be mad, to not have to bother of trying to understand history and learn from their mistakes. They are mad, therefore we don't have to think about how to prevent such organization ever forming here, right?
A Roman show is a dream of mine. The Warbird is the coolest ship. They could be painted as more than one-dimensional like they did with the Ferengi. Imagine a Roman commander in fear of its enemies growing bigger and the Empire is...stagnating. All the while in living in the cloak and dagger police state.
I want to hear your wildest conspiracy theories as to why the "Tal Shiar" sounds so much like "Tasha Yar", the human from the future captured on board the Enterprise C during the battle of Nerendra III. Go.
Tal Shiar is a linguistics shift of Tasha Yar, uttered by Ioconians during their fall. It has since come to mean "Morher of God Slayers" after the eons. The Ioconians identified that Tasha Yar was the point of paradox for Sela's birth, but she is from a branched timeline and unable to be eliminated. So the Ioconians used their fallback plan to kill Sela, Hobus. All because Sela is part of a stable time paradox that destroyed Ioconian society and culture.
In the Kelvin timeline, the Romulans are going to have a very difficult time infiltrating Starfleet or even just the Federation in general. The number of Vulcans is only 10,000 or so and the half Human Spock is the _only_ one in Starfleet. A Vulcan disguise is no longer that useful, and individual Vulcans will really stand out. Plus with the surviving Vulcans priority being increasing their population, they will no doubt have extensive genetic files on each living Vulcan. And even though Nero was from the future and said he didn't speak for the Romulan Empire, the Romulans will still no doubt get the blame for his actions. So a militant Starfleet will not be as willing to settle with the Romulan Empire. _The treaty of Algeron is definitely off the table._ This timelines Romulans better be less antagonistic to the Federation, who incidentally have more firepower than in the Prime Timeline. Even if you don't count that Starfleet will in the near future be equipping their ships with cloaking technology. And prehaps during any war stationing Betazoids on board to telepathically detect Cloaked Romulan ships. The Tal Shiar and the Zhat Vash will find their reach inside the Federation severely limited.
I see an equivalent to the Treaty of Algeron still happening. Mostly because the destruction of Vulcan puts Federation capabilities on the back foot for at least a decade. Not just the loss of people, but production capacity was lost. So some version of the treaty was probably signed to buy time. It probably was a bit more fair though. The destruction of Vulcan probably limits what additional spies can be infiltrated into Starfleet, but does nothing for any already undercover. If anything their cover became better. They have a strong alibi now.
0:02 Is this a quote from DS9? I'm assuming the "Major" is referring to Kira Nerys, and this was said when the Romulans showed up at DS9 to explore the Gamma Quadrant?
I like to think the Romulans know more about the Federation's machinations more then they let on, at least enough to strongly suspect, and this actually earns a measure of respect. Sort of like being aggressive with a Klingon, it's speaking their language lol.
Yes, yes, the Tal Shiar, quite impressive, but could any of their agents, fall back in a career or business, if they were ever laid off. I'm going to say no. I mean - I'm willing to bet not a single one could even get a job as say a tailor of any renown. Just a plain, simple, tailor. Yep, didn't think so.
Hello Rick, Are lizard men in the Star Trek Online series Gorn? If so, how and why they often pictured on Kronos living in harmony with the Klingons? I don’t think Klingons would tolerate that. Wouldn’t they be on the Gorn’s menu as well?
In-universe reason...The Klingon conquered the Gorn because species 8472 infiltrated the Gorn government...the Klingon-Gorn conflict is what caused the Federation council to denounce the Klingon Empire (the fed didn't believe the Klingons) and the two super power being at ware with each other at the start of the game Out of universe reason...the KDF needed other species to mirror the federation...so the devs fill their ranks in the minor species (Gorn, Orions, Lethean, Nausicaan) joined trills because of dax...and evil Caitian known as Ferasan to appease the furry lover...no judgement...I made a Ferasan myself >.>
@@amazedsatsuma The Ferasan were made because they weren't sure about the status of the Kzinti, legally, there. Also with the Gorn, they were pre-SNW Gorn which lack the xenomorph additions that show added...which make me still think that the term Gorn is basically one for a "reptilian humanoid" rather than any actual species, along with the older Gorn lore being that there were multiple species in the Gorn Hegemony there
All that mess about Species 8472 infiltrating the Gorn’s government sounds ridiculous and is another good reason why I don’t follow any of new Trek series or games. Thanks for answering my question.
That would rather depend on whether Sisko finally filed a truthful report. I doubt he did. And Garak had been careful enough to get rid of or disguise the evidence.
I didn't like the move of turning the cynical, unimaginative tal shiar from a KGB/commissariat-state G man to weirdo cult. It just seems so... Beneath them, and irrelevant to their lore.
Me too! It also doesn't make any sense that the Zhat Vash, in an effort to curtail artificial life forms destroy their last, best hope at survival via the Federation drones that were building their rescue flotilla. They could've at the very least waited until after their society was saved...
@@bettyswunghole3310 It is hopeful. Eventually the sand runs out and something wipes humanity/ the Federation/ the Alpha Quadrant/ the galaxy out. These paradoxes are common in Cosmic Horror as key factors are entropy and infinity.
Ugh I really hate that we have to incorporate that stupid Zhat-Vash nonsense from Picard season 1. Especially since Paramount would rather have you believe that Picard started with Season 3 anyway.
The whole concept of the Zhat Vash is ridiculous and it shows how this new generation of writers, directors, and producers ruined the Star Trek franchise starting with JJ Abrams and that absurd Kelvin timeline. To make this secret organization (Zhat Vash) the center of a secret organization (Tal Shiar) is example of writers trying to be too clever and of how popular series eventually write themselves out of existence. The gaps in storylines and absurd plot twists. The lack of continuity with loose ends going untied. For example, Section 31 infiltrated the Tal Shiar at its highest level when they turned Chairman Koval, but somehow the Zhat Vash doesn’t detect this mole within their mist. But, then 22 years later after the end of the DS9 Series, the writers decide to bring the Romulans and the Tal Shiar back with the Picard series and introduce this secret society within Romulan Intelligence and they’re able to pull off an attack that destroys Mars without us knowing about the conspiracy ahead of time. What this tells me is that these writers of these new Trek series: Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds, didn’t go back and closely watch TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. They just cherry picked the pieces they liked from those shows and cobbled them together into the monstrosity that they became. They screwed up the Klingons, the Romulans, the Federation, Section 31, and the Breen. The destruction of the Utopia Planetia shipyards, Romulan Star supernova, Discovery winding up in the mirror universe during the middle of the war with the Klingons, and the Burn were all totally ridiculous plot twists and storylines that have ruined the franchise. I can’t even watch it anymore. Now, with Section 31 coming out, it’s really going to be bad. Hopefully, Paramount will continue to lose money and go out of business, so they won’t be able to make any more of these terrible series.
So much text and yet so much nonsense. 😄As a classic nerd, moreover, blinded by hatred for new series, you make the mistake of assuming everything one side shows and someone says in the series must be 100% true. Zhat Vash could very well exist, they itself was a inactive mole for an awfully long time, basically a secret sisterhood. Kind of like if there were five Illuminati in our world in the CIA, impossible?
@@tomasr.Now, who sounds like a nerd. It’s dweebs like you who like all these nonsensical storylines and plot twists. While it is fiction that place in the future, it’s still realistic fiction meaning that the events portrayed could possibly occur in real life. I guess if doesn’t make sense, you chalk it open to being part of the mystique and mystery of the series. I chalk it up to bad writing.
@@tomasr.Uh, you’re the nerd if you believe a group of moles can last in an organization for centuries. The writers of these new Trek series don’t even bother to retcon, or give new information to explain why there’s been a departure from the previous canon of the series. They just change things and expect us to accept it. Realistic fiction, be it science fiction or not, has to have enough realism to make sense. Otherwise, it’s just fantasy. I’m not a fan of Star Trek for the sake of being a fan. I’m a fan because they were great shows. The writing made all the classic series great. The writing made Discovery and Picard awful. You can deny it all you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that those shows s_cked!
You're going to hate it when the Paramount buyout goes through if Picard and Discovery are decanonized, so many of these history stories are going to be completely ruined by retcons.
I hate that they went and put stupid azz ridges on their skulls. The women are far hotter than Vulcan women IF they don't come with the damn ridges. They seem intent on making the women ugly in most of the peoples. The Romulans during Kirks younger days did not have ridges. There was a mutated branch of the Romulans. Those are not the women I was looking for.
They answered that detail in Picard season 1. Lariss indicated that those with ridges came from the north, so its a regional thing. Kinda like the difference between ethic groups here on Earth.
And now we need lore video about Obsidian Order, it seems. :)
He BLEW up his own shop!? 🤣
@@aurorajones8481 Garrak is exceptional - and an individual, not the Order. Good point, though.
He is just a Simple Tailor? 🤔
Yes please
Agreed 👍
"Never send in the Tal Shiar if you want something done right" - They were sloppy.
I always felt Starfleet Intelligence was the most effective Intelligence Agency out there (especially if you count Section 31). Yes the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were amazing at their job with fearsome reputations, but SI did everything quietly and without too much fuss and look who came out on top in the end.
The Tal SHiar and Obsidian Order are like the CIA - they get results but there's also always a chance they make a very bad, very public blunder because their methods aren't passive.
Starfleet Intelligence is more like the NSA - it's just a metric ton of passive monitoring and long range sensors. It may not give the fine detail that the others do (though S31 usually fills in those gaps anyway) but the sheer volume of raw data they get without ever setting foot on foreign soil is impressive, and they almost never run into complications or political blowback because their methods are all passive. If the targets of SI surveillance had perfect opsec, SI would never produce any intel at all, so those targets have nobody to blame but themselves.
As for S31...I don't see much difference between S31 and the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order. They're all morally grey, seem to serve their own interests above the interests of the people they're supposed to represent, and have methods that eventually lead to public outcry and backlash because inevitably, when you intervene directly with people and don't kill them, eventually someone is going to talk. They also all engage in straight up torture, which nobody is ever going to support.
One of the few things in Trek I didn't like was when the Order interrogated Picard. IRL torture doesn't get results - 99 times out of 100, the victim just tells you what they think you want to hear to make the pain stop. It doesn't actually "break" people most of the time, they just change from being defiant and saying nothing to lying to their interrogators. IIRC Picard didn't give up anything valuable in that scene either, but he did "break" and that's not how it works. If Trek wanted to make a statement about torture, Picard should've stayed resolute and never broken, because that's probably what would've happened IRL anyway.
The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order made the mistake of being secret police as well as spies. They made many Romulans and Cardassians despise them which is why the Cardassians had a revolution after the Obsidian Order was defeated by the Dominion.
Man do they feel silly when the Federation avoided being overthrown by AI by just...giving them rights and treating them with basic kindness
In reality, I would have sided with Commodore Oh, the threat from the androids was too great and just relying on Picard to convince them was stupid.
@@tomasr. And yet. He did. So who's the foolish one?
@@tomasr.Then u missed the whole and probably only point of that whole Story
@@tomasr. Then you would've participated in triggering a Galactic Extinction Event.
I would expect ROMULAN, true believers..to just get angrier..and believe the negative even more.
To quote a romulan ships in Star Trek armada “We serve only the Tal Shiar”
The Tal Shiar, or as I like to call them the "Sexy" Romulans.
Right off the bat, a Romulan vessel drifting along.
I like this new story telling narration style. Feels like a more higher production value and more... Star Treky. Like a historical vid a character in the show might watch in the show. Good stuff!
That quote by Commander Toreth might as well be about the CIA in the USA. Its bold and accurate.
Should've called that first season Star Trek: Mass Effect, because that's the plot they lifted.
And Mass Effect borrowed heavily from Star Trek. The Krogan are Klingons, the Asari borrow from Betazoids. The Cerberus organization is a hybrid of section 31 and the organization of human extremists from late enterprise. The reapers are the Borg.
@@terranempire2 No. Mass Effect borrowed from H.P. Lovecraft.
@@johnsteiner3417 just because you borrow from one doesn’t mean you can’t from others.
@@terranempire2 In this case it reflected an obvious lifting of Mass Effect, whereas Mass Effect clearly did not draw from Star Trek.
@@johnsteiner3417 The Mass Effect creators stated that they were inspired by Star Trek The Next Generation and other 80s sci fi, which is why the Citadel embassies could've been a TNG set.
Thanks for this. The Mars synth attack was a bigger folly than the Omarion Nebula. I mean, they essentially made their own people an endangered species because of what? The Admonition? I love everything Romulan, but the Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash make some monumentally stupid decisions for a millennia old organization.
Yeah. It made no sense to destroy the synths and all the ships that would have saved their people right when the Federation was working to save the Romulans. Why not wait until afterwards? The whole thing made no sense.
Another Certifiably Ingame upload! Shaka, When the Walls Fell!
Every time I hear "Tal Shiar" I get a mental image of Talia Shire,
I’m looking forward to your Obsidian Order video.
Thanks for another fun video.
A very enjoyable vid. I love soaking up some romulan lore.
0:58 thanks for the note
As you've got the tal shiar on your mind are you going to be doing the rest of the romulan characters missions that you missed out? Being brainwashed by sela and the "Charva friend or foe" stories were really interesting to play through.
Were those among the missions that got axed?
@@gmradio2436 no. Play as a klingon allied romulan and you will play the story arc "allies" where you meet charva. Allies comes after "from the ashes" and then "allies" and then "in shadows" where you become a tal shiar agent to infiltrate the agency.
@@dave_p560 Thanks for the information. I have a new storyline to play now.
EXCELLENT. THANK YOU
An interesting implication of Picard s1 that I wish they'd followed up on is that, with the fall of the Star Empire, the Tal'Shiar seem to be busily working behind the scenes to take over the Federation from within. They remind me of the Dai Li from AtLA; their loyalty is always to themselves.
kindaa makes you think of couple of Nero's crew members i noticed one ro two of them even more shifty and more observant than the others who was just miners like Nero was, just by their behaviors like holding back in fighting using a point a logic to get more info by letting kirk in to get pike to spill info while being rescued while some of the big headed Romulans just went in like berserkers at a frat party, one stood back observing but disappointed at what happened not at the federation but his own people the one little scene that some just looks over but strikes the eye of an observant viewer, that makes one say interesting.
This was sweet.
great vid , Have you done a deep dive on Garek ?
naaa, to boring, he is just a plain simple tailor 🤭
Great video!
This is why I hope they focus on the Tal Shiar and the Free State Romulans. STO went a different way, but it was similar in some ways as well.
If they ever did a new 25th century show that would be a fantastic place to concentrate and tell the next part of the story of the path to Ni'Var that we see in ST: Discovery.
I don't know if the Obsidian Order is worse. I can't see the Obsidian Order allowing the destruction of the Cardassian Homeworld and leaving so much of their people behind. The Obsidian Order for all their brutality is at least loyal to Cardassia.
If it saved the Union as a whole, the Obsidian Order might sacrifice Cardasia. They put more emphasis on the Government over the home world.
That said, they would not do so lightly.
Please consider making a video depicting the difference between the Tal sh'yar and the cardassian Obsidian order.
So just mass effect
The T'kon Tal'shiar stuff sounded more like anti-Tal'shiar propaganda than a real story. It's a common trope to declare the enemies to be mad, to not have to bother of trying to understand history and learn from their mistakes. They are mad, therefore we don't have to think about how to prevent such organization ever forming here, right?
A Roman show is a dream of mine. The Warbird is the coolest ship. They could be painted as more than one-dimensional like they did with the Ferengi. Imagine a Roman commander in fear of its enemies growing bigger and the Empire is...stagnating. All the while in living in the cloak and dagger police state.
Hey Rick why don’t you make a review on the ST Prodigy show?
Where in STO is the Romulan background scenes from
I want to hear your wildest conspiracy theories as to why the "Tal Shiar" sounds so much like "Tasha Yar", the human from the future captured on board the Enterprise C during the battle of Nerendra III. Go.
It sounds even more like the Vulcan execution method the tal shia
Tal Shiar is a linguistics shift of Tasha Yar, uttered by Ioconians during their fall. It has since come to mean "Morher of God Slayers" after the eons. The Ioconians identified that Tasha Yar was the point of paradox for Sela's birth, but she is from a branched timeline and unable to be eliminated.
So the Ioconians used their fallback plan to kill Sela, Hobus.
All because Sela is part of a stable time paradox that destroyed Ioconian society and culture.
In the Kelvin timeline, the Romulans are going to have a very difficult time infiltrating Starfleet or even just the Federation in general.
The number of Vulcans is only 10,000 or so and the half Human Spock is the _only_ one in Starfleet.
A Vulcan disguise is no longer that useful, and individual Vulcans will really stand out.
Plus with the surviving Vulcans priority being increasing their population, they will no doubt have extensive genetic files on each living Vulcan.
And even though Nero was from the future and said he didn't speak for the Romulan Empire, the Romulans will still no doubt get the blame for his actions.
So a militant Starfleet will not be as willing to settle with the Romulan Empire.
_The treaty of Algeron is definitely off the table._
This timelines Romulans better be less antagonistic to the Federation, who incidentally have more firepower than in the Prime Timeline.
Even if you don't count that Starfleet will in the near future be equipping their ships with cloaking technology.
And prehaps during any war stationing Betazoids on board to telepathically detect Cloaked Romulan ships.
The Tal Shiar and the Zhat Vash will find their reach inside the Federation severely limited.
I see an equivalent to the Treaty of Algeron still happening. Mostly because the destruction of Vulcan puts Federation capabilities on the back foot for at least a decade. Not just the loss of people, but production capacity was lost. So some version of the treaty was probably signed to buy time. It probably was a bit more fair though.
The destruction of Vulcan probably limits what additional spies can be infiltrated into Starfleet, but does nothing for any already undercover. If anything their cover became better. They have a strong alibi now.
0:02 Is this a quote from DS9? I'm assuming the "Major" is referring to Kira Nerys, and this was said when the Romulans showed up at DS9 to explore the Gamma Quadrant?
TNG episode Face of the Enemy where Deanna Troi is altered and assumed the identity of a Romulan Major & the first mentioned of the Tal Shiar
@@StarMandoForge Oh, right.
I like to think the Romulans know more about the Federation's machinations more then they let on, at least enough to strongly suspect, and this actually earns a measure of respect. Sort of like being aggressive with a Klingon, it's speaking their language lol.
🖖
Yes, yes, the Tal Shiar, quite impressive, but could any of their agents, fall back in a career or business, if they were ever laid off. I'm going to say no.
I mean - I'm willing to bet not a single one could even get a job as say a tailor of any renown. Just a plain, simple, tailor.
Yep, didn't think so.
The Tal Shiar may have outlived the Star Empire, but unlike, their oldest enemy, the Qowat Milat...they don't seem to be active in the 32nd century
Hello Rick,
Are lizard men in the Star Trek Online series Gorn? If so, how and why they often pictured on Kronos living in harmony with the Klingons? I don’t think Klingons would tolerate that. Wouldn’t they be on the Gorn’s menu as well?
In-universe reason...The Klingon conquered the Gorn because species 8472 infiltrated the Gorn government...the Klingon-Gorn conflict is what caused the Federation council to denounce the Klingon Empire (the fed didn't believe the Klingons) and the two super power being at ware with each other at the start of the game
Out of universe reason...the KDF needed other species to mirror the federation...so the devs fill their ranks in the minor species (Gorn, Orions, Lethean, Nausicaan) joined trills because of dax...and evil Caitian known as Ferasan to appease the furry lover...no judgement...I made a Ferasan myself >.>
@@amazedsatsuma The Ferasan were made because they weren't sure about the status of the Kzinti, legally, there.
Also with the Gorn, they were pre-SNW Gorn which lack the xenomorph additions that show added...which make me still think that the term Gorn is basically one for a "reptilian humanoid" rather than any actual species, along with the older Gorn lore being that there were multiple species in the Gorn Hegemony there
All that mess about Species 8472 infiltrating the Gorn’s government sounds ridiculous and is another good reason why I don’t follow any of new Trek series or games. Thanks for answering my question.
Thanks for your reply.
You know how Vulcan and the Romulus became Nvar, I’ve wonder what romulans thought of the dominion war once they get the federation councils secrets
That would rather depend on whether Sisko finally filed a truthful report.
I doubt he did. And Garak had been careful enough to get rid of or disguise the evidence.
I didn't like the move of turning the cynical, unimaginative tal shiar from a KGB/commissariat-state G man to weirdo cult. It just seems so... Beneath them, and irrelevant to their lore.
Me too! It also doesn't make any sense that the Zhat Vash, in an effort to curtail artificial life forms destroy their last, best hope at survival via the Federation drones that were building their rescue flotilla. They could've at the very least waited until after their society was saved...
SPACE!!!
I don't want to be "that guy", but how can you "prevent an inevitability"...?
Delay it one day at a time. Do so long enough and it may never happen.
It is a very cosmic horror mindset.
@@gmradio2436 In which case, it's not "inevitable", right...?
@@bettyswunghole3310 It is hopeful. Eventually the sand runs out and something wipes humanity/ the Federation/ the Alpha Quadrant/ the galaxy out.
These paradoxes are common in Cosmic Horror as key factors are entropy and infinity.
Awesome
Wait the star shapers are the T'Kon? ok TIL
Sounds just like our gov
Ugh I really hate that we have to incorporate that stupid Zhat-Vash nonsense from Picard season 1. Especially since Paramount would rather have you believe that Picard started with Season 3 anyway.
Next, the Bolian Secret Police, so secret nobody knows they even exist.
The whole concept of the Zhat Vash is ridiculous and it shows how this new generation of writers, directors, and producers ruined the Star Trek franchise starting with JJ Abrams and that absurd Kelvin timeline.
To make this secret organization (Zhat Vash) the center of a secret organization (Tal Shiar) is example of writers trying to be too clever and of how popular series eventually write themselves out of existence. The gaps in storylines and absurd plot twists. The lack of continuity with loose ends going untied. For example, Section 31 infiltrated the Tal Shiar at its highest level when they turned Chairman Koval, but somehow the Zhat Vash doesn’t detect this mole within their mist. But, then 22 years later after the end of the DS9 Series, the writers decide to bring the Romulans and the Tal Shiar back with the Picard series and introduce this secret society within Romulan Intelligence and they’re able to pull off an attack that destroys Mars without us knowing about the conspiracy ahead of time.
What this tells me is that these writers of these new Trek series: Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds, didn’t go back and closely watch TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. They just cherry picked the pieces they liked from those shows and cobbled them together into the monstrosity that they became. They screwed up the Klingons, the Romulans, the Federation, Section 31, and the Breen. The destruction of the Utopia Planetia shipyards, Romulan Star supernova, Discovery winding up in the mirror universe during the middle of the war with the Klingons, and the Burn were all totally ridiculous plot twists and storylines that have ruined the franchise.
I can’t even watch it anymore. Now, with Section 31 coming out, it’s really going to be bad. Hopefully, Paramount will continue to lose money and go out of business, so they won’t be able to make any more of these terrible series.
So much text and yet so much nonsense. 😄As a classic nerd, moreover, blinded by hatred for new series, you make the mistake of assuming everything one side shows and someone says in the series must be 100% true. Zhat Vash could very well exist, they itself was a inactive mole for an awfully long time, basically a secret sisterhood. Kind of like if there were five Illuminati in our world in the CIA, impossible?
@@tomasr.Now, who sounds like a nerd. It’s dweebs like you who like all these nonsensical storylines and plot twists. While it is fiction that place in the future, it’s still realistic fiction meaning that the events portrayed could possibly occur in real life. I guess if doesn’t make sense, you chalk it open to being part of the mystique and mystery of the series. I chalk it up to bad writing.
@@tomasr.Uh, you’re the nerd if you believe a group of moles can last in an organization for centuries. The writers of these new Trek series don’t even bother to retcon, or give new information to explain why there’s been a departure from the previous canon of the series. They just change things and expect us to accept it. Realistic fiction, be it science fiction or not, has to have enough realism to make sense. Otherwise, it’s just fantasy.
I’m not a fan of Star Trek for the sake of being a fan. I’m a fan because they were great shows. The writing made all the classic series great. The writing made Discovery and Picard awful. You can deny it all you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that those shows s_cked!
"The tal shiar, for all your espionage needs" - romulan advert (maybe)
The Tal Shiar the secret not so secret police of the Romulan Empire. LLNP 🖖
Sounds like the sad vash is the Romulan equivalent to section 31
hello
I thought Romulan females where hot. Especially Donatra. "You're not a woman! You're a Romulan!"
I love star trek ... but good lord were they bad at designing insignias.
So, the KGB. IN SPACE!
SCIENCE!!!
Tsceka/GPU/NKVD/MGB/KGB/FSB in Space
wait a minute is the Zhad Vash just the butleran jihad from dune 🤔
This sounds like an armed Twitter mob.
The Tal Shiar is sloppy!
You're going to hate it when the Paramount buyout goes through if Picard and Discovery are decanonized, so many of these history stories are going to be completely ruined by retcons.
I hate that they went and put stupid azz ridges on their skulls. The women are far hotter than Vulcan women IF they don't come with the damn ridges. They seem intent on making the women ugly in most of the peoples. The Romulans during Kirks younger days did not have ridges. There was a mutated branch of the Romulans. Those are not the women I was looking for.
They answered that detail in Picard season 1. Lariss indicated that those with ridges came from the north, so its a regional thing. Kinda like the difference between ethic groups here on Earth.
Tal Shiar sounds awfully like Tasha Yar ... coincidence????
1
6th
Why pollute the lore with NuTrek 🤮
1