Does more oil make a difference? Oil analysis, OEM vs larger clutch cover
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- More oil, longer service interval? That is the question I look at today.
00:00 Intro, recap, hypothesis
02:42 The experiment, the bikes, the trip
04:15 Oil analysis by CAT
05:39 Report explanation
07:56 The results
10:53 Viscosity discussion
13:19 Other benefits
16:04 My Conclusion
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Shame the lab only provides a cSt measurement @40degC, really need to see a measurement at the other D445 temp of 100degC to validate how much the oil has thinned nearer to the operating range against a fresh sample. Certainly loosing +35 isn't ideal at 40C but not uncommon in oils like 7100 and Power1 to loose around ~30cSt in the cold range. Pretty poor still to loose that much in only 20hrs of easy adv riding, I'd have expected to see that around the +40Hr mark in these riding conditions for a top spec oil. Again, Difficult to judge how the oil actually held up without the 100degC value. Also no TBN measurement which would also be pretty telling of the fresh vs used samples.
I'd expect the absence of the D445 100degC and TBN values is because CAT are less interested in their oil's performance as those baselines for change intervals and oil tailoring would be largely optimised. Guessing they're more interested in outlier WDA material counts and contaminents pointing to component/maint issues in the field to minimise downtime/cost rather than looking back toward their oil durability - at least with the data in this report. Worth your time to find a tester that provides a TBN and D445 100degC value for the future Keith if you decide to do any more of these for your own info - will give MUCH better clarity on how the oils holds up viscosity and corrosion protection efficacy wise.
Nice job on this issue, Keith. It’s something that every 500/501 owner has wondered about.
This is fantastic work, Keith. I’ve absolutely appreciated all the videos I’ve watched of your work. Very thorough. Very well done. Thank you.
Great video Keith. Glad this topic was covered.
Thanks PJ
Thanks for this very instructive and usefull video
Great video!
FWIW - Apart from how you actually use the engine(how the rider rides it) and how the transmission is used, oil is extermely important. My Aprilia RXV 550 has seperate oils for the transmission and engine. The transmission uses 75W90 and the engine uses 10W60. Oil degredation is not caused by the engine operation as most modern bikes has Niksil type linings etc. The viscosity drops because of the shearing from the transmission gears and the heat build up generated between the meshing of those gears. This is why the Ape uses a 75W90 trans oil. The more oil capacity the bike has the the longer the viscosity will be higher. If you want your numbers to stay higher longer you are better off using a higher viscosity oil in hotter climates like Australia and getting 100% Full Synthetic oil with PAO / Ester base stock to minimise the shearing & transmission gear heat degredation, especially so for air cooled bikes.
Super interesting. And unexpected. Shocked by how much oil degrades. That’s a good lesson. Well done.
Have you investigated the Twin Air Oil Radiator? Thank you.
Very interesting to see this actually tested. Have heard it specukated about numerous times, but not actually assessed.
I think this report is good news. Viscosity is the only factor that is affected by mileage according to this. Contamination is nil. Iron at 35 ppm is only .0035% It's nothing. It's probably normal bearing wear I reckon.
When researching this subject previously I read that mechanical shear is what reduces the viscosity. It mainly occurs in the transmission and it involves the oil molecules actually being cut into smaller pieces just like you slicing a tomato. By the gears meshing together. And the smaller the pieces, the lower the viscosity. But it will never get below 10W in the case of 10W-50 oil.
But according to this data viscosity was reduced 29% after 20 hours of running. And it was only reduced a further 12% when measured after 54 hours. Mathematically I think the used oil after 54 hours is probably equivalent to a 30 weight oil. Which probably will still provide plenty of lubrication.
I'd be curious to see the same numbers run on something like a 690 or 901 that has much longer change intervals. I'm curious what those viscosity numbers would be.
Also I believe that fuel mixture and thermostat temperature affect running temperature much more than oil volume. If an engine is running nice and cool the oil will be too. I think you've proven that the increase in volume has zero effect on oil condition. In fact I think you've shown that the oil can go farther still.
Hi Ross, I actually had a 690 on board for this test too... same trip, same oil. But it suffered a leaking countershaft seal and so required a top-up midway through the ride, rendering its results unusable.😢
Good vide thanks
Great stuff, i'm looking at that bike.
Thanks Keith, an interesting exercise and thanks for taking the trouble to do it. I also saw Adam's vid just after an oil change on a bike that had been sitting a while. I had exactly the problem described with the new oil dirty after the first start up. I took it out for a quick thrash on the weekend and changed the oil again as soon as I parked up. This time the oil poured out and was noticeably thinner as it drained. After the oil change and start up, the oil was clean as a whistle 👍
Good video Keith and so agree with your conclusion.
The lads doing the APC Rally without an oil change programmed in was ambitious. There was a lot of high speed running to get the miles in. It was certainly a rally suited to twin cylinder machines where smoothness and comfort would be well appreciated.
Thanks. Putting on my dusty statistics beanie, doesn't this only qualify as anecdotal. Or one data point, and too small of a sample to extrapolate out for a larger population? The Can of worms is to assumr too much with one uncontrolled test. Also since the initial intuition is wrong, consider what volume of extra oil would make a difference,... double, triple? There must be some increase in vol that slows degradation. This test was fun for the citizen scientist but only proves that maybe ABC needs to do more testing in a contolled lab or get a real scientist to offer a theoretical improvement expected. I luv science and motorcycles and this channel!
Great content Keith and thanks for taking the time to do this.
I like the guys in the test comparison did approx 55hrs on the same oil with a bigger case on.
Not something I would do on a regular basis as it was a one off long distance trip abroad. Riding in the UK more frequent oil changes are no problem. As you said it’s a performance engine👍🏻
I agree it was "out there" in terms of hours. But I think 4000km is a reasonable number for people to want to know if they can do it "safely" on one lot of oil.
I was hoping you would prove without a doubt that more oil was better , but this was definitely not the case I am happy to change oil half way through a trip at 1300kms touring kilometers is vastly different to race kms ,I would only do maybe 300kms on my 350.
Great info Keith u definitely answered the age old question.
Interesting find, when you think it through it actually makes sense that the difference wouldn’t be noticeable. Particulate level the same just floating around in more oil now. I guess we stick to quality oil and strict air filter and oil filter procedures. That being said I am about to install the Taco Moto ‘Mother of All’ Oil Filters on my 500 😬 It seems to keep the oil far healthier.
Great Great video and anaysis. I would suggest that a good comparison to be now adding 2 columns for 1 690/701 and a 890/901 so we could understand the difference with oil degradation from a Drit bike type to a longer extended service type of engine to understand the oil degradation. I think that would the be cherry on the top for an 100% comparison test.
Thanks for your great work and time dedicated to help us all on this subject!
A big thanks from Portugal
Hi Keith, I have a 22 KTM 500 with the Adv Components clutch cover and ran a temp senor in it to.
Just got back from the Ridge Ride III ride 2500 Kms over 5 days 36 Hours engine run time. One oil change Done the CAT SOS report and the oil was showing the same outcomes as you have. No difference in the oil temp. I have been doing my changes right on 15 Hours and taking 1200ml of oil on a ride is not really much of an inconvenience to be honest so that's what I have done. I have the Adv Bike Components clutch cover and I will leave it on but it does mean I have to now take 1600 ml of oil. Your video and well presented the facts in a real world scenario. Thanks Vids are really handy.
Interesting.
3 years ago I installed the Bestdualsportbikes large cover on my 2018.It had only 4 bolt holes but the new one has 5 holes. I watched the owner belt his cover with a hammer very hard and it only made a little dent so that alone makes it worthwhile. Even with that drop in viscosity there is now a fair amount of evidence that these engines are incredibly durable, thanks to riders like rtwPaul and Aaron Steinmann who did 140,000km on his 500.
54 Engine hours on the same oil ! That`s the primary reason the oil viscosity valve was low on the two bikes. I`ve owned several 525 , 530 and 500 EXC`s and never exceeded 20 engine hours between oil changes , no matter what type of riding I was doing. Oil is cheap , engine components are not.
Agree on the principle, but oil is not cheap…
Hi Keith, I have a lot of reservations about your methodology. Set aside the different bikes, and a whole range of other variables. What we don't know, and I think you have a responsibility to present is the gradient of degradation (viscosity) over engine hours. KTM and Husky have a recommended oil replacement for engine hours and these bikes are being taken beyond that. Maybe they've flat lined at different times. Hence the similar readings of degradation, as they both reached that point. What we don't know is the journey over engine hour time to reach that flat line. (If they have in fact they have reached complete deterioration.) We know the larger oil capacities lower oil temp, which is the primary reason for degradation. The reason I increased oil capacity of my 501 was that I was told by numerous knowledgeable sources, including Clive Ward of MotorcycleBiz, that increased oil capacity and hence lower operating temperatures allowed me to safely stretch out the service interval as it reduced the rate of oil degradation. The brand is irrelevant to this discussion as there are a number of increased volume clutch covers out there. I appreciate you're well meaning and have given it a red hot go to get to the bottom of this but a truck load more research needs to be done before you can ethically draw any conclusion. All you've managed to do for me, is got me thinking of constructing a better methodology to truly tell me if and when the oil flatlines for usefulness once passed the specified service hour limit. At this present time, I'll take my advice from the experts, (none of which have tried to sell me any specific product) that have advised me to increase engine oil capacity if I want to use the bike for adventure and push out engine hours before oil change. cheers Dave
So the assumtion is that a small increase in oil capacity is going to lower temps. Not sure about that one. You would need a cooler I would have thought.
@@robking7503 This is not an assumption temperature sensors were fitted. There has been tests done, temps are 10 degrees cooler. My question is, does that make a difference.
I think everyone is missing the point. Everything to do with oil is to lubricate. It's all about the oils design. If you use Motul, Castrol, Belray ,Penrite, Amsoil bla bla bla. The trick is to find an oil that performs at the highest stress level the longest. Shear stress is what creates the heat. The oils job is to sustain high loads of stress. If a bike manufacturers bike it test certain oil based on load testing the engines. Once again under load stress. If you were really after an answer I would performing a test in oils of same viscosity like 20/60wt and say 10/40 of different brands.. that is the kicker here. I use Penrite because it's affordable. I use a high viscosity due to our average temperature here is 15 deg plus. If you were in the desert riding the Simpson in the summer I would be using the high temp grade available. KTM, Husaberg use 10/40 because of Europe temps . Viscosity relative to environment. You want keep oil cool...cool it down. Full stop. Volume will help temp control until it gets to balanced heat. Then it is the same. Follow Manufacturers recommended time lines and choose a high quality oil..
@@johnclowes3502 Agree, but Keith, interestingly has opened a pandoras box, which reveals there is truck load to do to get to the bottom of this.
@@MotorcycleAdventureDirtbikeTV Yep.. there is a lot to do.. Racing has always been the base line of development. You will never get any higher stress loads than those guys who push a bike to its engineered limit.. that's where the best analysis will show true results.
Nice test Keith- enjoyed the "down earthness" of it. Would like to see what you think of the Taco Moto "Mother of all oil filters " magnetic/static oil filter. I have been using one in my 2022 500 EXCF and not only does it take seconds to clean but it seems to catch a ton of gunk.
Not a bad effort Keith, in truth here is that many variables exist and that makes it hard to control accuracy of testing. For me larger oil capacity may assist but only if coupled with improved filtration, oil viscosity results needed to be at the 2 std markers for relevance, but does give some indication.
In Australia id run with Penrite 10W 60 given our warm climate and oil used in a gear train. But again depends on where you ride predominantly, if high country winter, maybe not. The larger sump to me add little bar better strength of the housing, which is not a bad thing. SWM RS500 adv work 20 to 30hrs oil n filter, but std 1.7litre sump. Drz400e jikes people push the 4 to 5000kms adv work and they get pretty good mileage life 1.8 to 1.9lt sump capacity or close. Its very much a dark art science oil and use/ application etc. Good on you for puttin1g some facts up.
it's not only oil contamination that matters, more means better cooling, better lubricating
Does the windshield you put on it work?
Hi Keith, please could you have a look at the twin air oil cooler? It looks like a perfect solution for longevity of the exc. Nathan
Filters remove particles so not an issue
Hallo Keith would be interesting to do an experiment whith a small oil cooler with the same volume as the big clutch cover im going to try it on my yam 450 as lt has external oil lines ,i dont know if the ktm has these external lines
Hi Keith, awesome videos mate. Have you ever looked at a Twinair oil cooler? Would love to hear your opinion. Cheers Phil 500 exc St Kilda.
I mentioned a KTM to a riding pal as a possible addition to the stable. He immediately scolded me to “research the stupid short oil drain intervals…etc”. We then went and had a $25 hamburger lunch…
It would be interesting to see the value at the manufactures recommended time. Obviously the trip riders went further then Recommended miles/time
interesting review. in the "fingermeter" seems that motorex degradates faster then others (like motorex)
maybe a second test? with an oil radiator?
I find it interesting that the 690 that I ride holds 1.7l and has a much higher mileage recommended service. Seems to prove your point about the adventure riding compared to racing.
690 has 3 piston rings, 500 only 2. Meaning more bad stuff can get into the oil. So that's the main reason for longer service intervals + for 500 it is race spec of course.
I have a 450l as adventure bike, oil changes every 5k kms will do
Wonder if going with a 15W-50 would help. Or even a 20W-50 on hot a desert trip.
keith. off topic. did you get chain slap noise when you first got your bike. i am, i tightened it but still noisy. ive done 15 hrs from new. its got a 13 front sprocket.
Not that I recall.
Interesting test … it was recommended to me by the bike shop where I got my bike ( 2018 500 ) to run 10w-60 , penrite Australia also recommended the same , would be interesting to see if that would result in better oil viscosity after 20 hours
Well it may help after a few hours, but the oil would be thicker than recommended at the start of the interval…
When I spoke to Dangermouse I asked him that question, about using 10W60. He said it could help in hotter climates for sure, BUT he wouldn't personally use oil with a differnt rating than recommended. So 🤷♂
Well done Keith on a very interesting topic. I wonder what the minimum safe oil viscosity is for these engines? If you knew that, then you'd have another data point to help decide when to change the oil.
Hi Phil, that is a great question but not one I could find the answer to. The report linked above talks about a 20% reduction as potentially "critical", but it is a generalised statement not specific to this oil or this engine. I would love to know the answer though!
@@keithjob If we use the minimum 'safe' viscosity loss range of 10% to maximum critical of 20%, which I can't see being too off the mark for any internal combustion engine regardless of type of use, then we can extrapolate further:
(Rounding for ease of calculation and using 114 as the baseline)
Your bike - 71% of original viscosity remaining = 29% viscosity lost.
Simon + Kurt - 58% of original viscosity remaining = 42% viscosity lost.
I'm starting to think that KTM's recommended oil change interval at 15H, using the oil they recommend and that you use, is mainly for this reason!
This is why the shear rating debate is always the big factor that comes up in these forum oil conversations.
It's also the reason why I run Rotella T6 15W40 in my 2017 KTM 500 EXC-F and only change out every 2500kms or so... check out the shear rating on it! Just sayin'. ;-)
Any one know of a test of different oils?
Cheers Keith. That was very interesting. I wonder how long was the oil in the bikes in real time (weeks, months...)? Also how did the oil look and feel to you when you dropped it (is a subjective assessment even remotely accurate)?
I have put the nomad rhino cover on my 450 taking it up to 1500ml. Nomad recommends 3000km which is probably going to be between 30 and 40 hours adv riding.
My original hope with more oil was that I would not have to worry about it too much when on a trip but would do about 15 to 20 hour's when Im riding enduro tracks etc... After watching this I wonder if going for a longer life oil for touring would be a good idea. Not sure where the compromise is between life and performance so it would be a guess.
Like you say though changing the oil aint hard or particularly time consuming on these bikes. If you carry 1.2 litres with you then in reality you have doubled your oil capacity.
Have a good one.
Paul
The oil was changed immediately before this week-long trip, and sampled the day after, so maybe 10 days max.
My KTM dealer told med not to buy the motorex motorcross/enduro oil since it is made for 10-30 hours intervals. He told me to go for "normal" fully synthetic motorex oil if riding adv, or not changing oil every 10hours.
Do not know if there is any truth in this. But I am only using "normal" fully synthetic on my Beta and changing the oil every 30-60hour.
Oil cooler??‽
Hi Keith, just out of curiosity, how was the sample taken out of each bike, ie, hot and just drained?
yes. caught mid-stream after removing the sump plug
@@keithjob Thanks Keith, I’ll do it the same way as I also have an oversize clutch cover (Nomad ADV) and also the Twin Air Oil Cooler. It’ll be interesting to see if the oil cooler prolongs the viscosity of the oil. Heading off next week but when I’m back I’ll send an oil sample off to get tested and let you know the results.
@@MotoMongrelany results from your test?
It appears that Keith’s oil was not the same oil as the tested Motorex.
There's a visible difference when changing the oil between Motorex and Motul, the first one being a lot thinner coming out of the engine than Motul which seems to keep it's viscosity better. Maybe do a video about that? :)
Motul 7100 in the 500 really makes a difference over the Motorex 4T. I do BDR rides and never think twice about going to the 1200 mile on a quality oil.
You can't tell the viscosity by looking at it.
🤦 seriously
@@marcwilliams9285 you can’t measure it by looking at it at but you can compare two oils and know if they are close or if one is thinner. You can also compare to when you poured it in new. Can’t you tell that honey is thicker than water?
Stop embarrassing yourself.
The only way to tell is to have the oils at the same temperature and use a viscosity funnel to time it.
If they are different when pouring out of the bottle then they are different viscosity oils to begin with.
@@marcwilliams9285 the only one embarrassing himself is you losing your temper over such a simple matter. Again, I’m not talking about measuring viscosity (and I do know how to do that). If Motorex loses more of its viscosity that’s a bad thing, especially when we’re talking stretching the oil change interval.
Lay each cover flat. Fill both with water. Measure the difference.
That proves nothing!
When you put oil in your bike you don't fill it to the top of the clutch cover.
🤦
@@marcwilliams9285you might want to think about what you just said 😂😂😂
@kingcanmore yeah I thought about it the first time, it still makes no difference
@@marcwilliams9285 might want to go back to school then mate 🤦🏻♂️
@@kingcanmoreit's bait