Hulk was going to be the first star of the Octagon, as he fought Pride fighters in the 1970s, but guys got beat up for real after the match should’ve been stopped.
Not gonna lie, I thought that TNA's 6 sided ring was kinda cool growing up due to how unique it was. I was kinda bummed once they started using the 4 sided ring after Hogan signed with them.
Jeff Jarrett has long since stated that he used a six-sided ring because the toy companies would produce it. The toy companies wanted something different from the WWE ring.
Not quite. Stores only wanted WWE toys. But they would stock the six-sided ring. No other TNA toys would get onto store shelves, only the six-sided ring.
Yeah, that’s not true at all. Jeff first used the six sides because he said AAA used it and thought it was cool and different. Then figure and gaming companies came to tna because they liked that tna used a six sided ring.
At least the small guys they push looked like wrestlers and athletes or atleast look good enough for TV and theu didn't job their big guys and used them in top card. AEW initially was good after Cody left the decline was rapid.
Note the decline ramp up as the Cucamonga kids started eating up all the tv time left by Cody’s departure, and started pushing their vision of SoCal PervWG garbage “comedy” to Snowy Khan “Comedy” that makes Brendan Schaub look like George Carlin.
@@AnnoyedRocket-ep6dnTheir small guys were 220lbs of muscle, their old guys were 35-45, and the ghost of WCW they were chasing was only 5 years gone instead of 25
No it wasn't. TNA would have only been a viable alternative if it had owners would were willing to spend money. The Carters were actually richer than the McMahons, and had more money than WWE as a company at the time but they never considered TNA to be a legitimate business investment. They would pay the taxes and office staff but wouldn't invest anything into salaries, Marketing, etc. If they had sold to viacom, and gotten rid of Dixie, they could have had a chance to compete. But the Carters wouldn't sell because they only bought it because it made Dixie happy.
It was part of the appeal of TNA at its peak. They had a different aesthetic from WWE. It’s part of how NXT grew as fast as it did, just had a fresh, different vibe.
I Absolutely loved the six sided ring especially since it made TNA different from WWE and made them the alternative to WWE TNA started using the six sided ring in 2004 they had a traditional ring when they started in 2002.
during a table for 3 with AJ Styles, Jeff Jarrett, and Sting. Sting hated it, AJ loved it, and Jeff Jarrett claimed that was the only thing that got them any shelf space in the toy stores.
It was a great concept and as Jim said it's harder on the body, I'm how AJ's flip bump from Ultimate X and how Chris Daniels felt falling off it nearly head first from Ultimate X/Elevation X. Very little give OUCH. Jeff said the 6 sided ring worked wonders for selling toys..
Hexagon works great if you push triangle/three-way tag matches. You could also have a Trios Match with each participant having their own corner. Six-way tag match with only two guys in the ring at a time, and you can tag anyone. Gotta write gimmick matches that rely on a Hexagon and cannot be done in the squared circle.
Back in the day I was excited to have pro wrestling back on free television in Germany, but as soon as I discovered the six sided ring I turned off. It was much too gimmicky for me.
The 6 sided ring is the exact reason why I started watching TNA, so it did intrigue some fans. Next, I kept watching because the X-Division was on fire back then. They utilized the hexagonal ring incredibly. Then, you had gimmick matches, like the infamous 6 sides of steal cage match, which just came across as more barbaric. Sabu and The Monster Abyss had some classic brawls. Lastly, look up Elix Skipper’s cage walk, it is one of the craziest cage spots in history, something like that wouldn’t be as likely in a regular cage.
@user-vj9qz3br6l: Elix Skipper even had a "Ropewalk Preview" in the last days of WCW. The Announcing Crew said that they didn't think that they had ever seen such a move before. Part Spoiler from World Class (who of course influenced The Undertaker, then known as Texas Red) and Part Frankensteiner!😂🎤🐴🤠🤸♂️🤼♂️B.W.
We didn't get TNA weekly shows here till like 2010/2011. I cant remember what it was but I remember flicking through TV channels around 2008ish and we came across some TNA. The 6 sided ring instantly caught my brother and I's attention and we watched it and ended up looking to see more TNA online
Jeff Jarett I believe once said the ring used on the first TNA show was actually an old WCW ring. Think the 6-sided ring came in around 2004 until Hogan and Bichoff came in, then it came back at points after.
The thing that wasn't taken into consideration by TNA management, or ignored, was that lucha wrestlers did mostly rolling bumps instead of flat back bumps. This made it easier to take the toll of the six sided rings. In TNA they were taking flat back bumps in it, which made it a lot harder on them.
As Lance Storm put it, TNA was using a ring designed for a specific style of wrestling that AAA used for specific shows that were all about showcasing that specific style of wrestling. TNA used that ring for all of their shows while rarely ever using that specific style, those three on three tercias matches and or Australian rules stuff, basically resulting in a less safe work environment for the sake of visuals.
"I might not can beat you with 4 sides, but if the ring has 6 sides, I can take ya." I mean, that's an angle that could work REALLY REALLY WELL if that line was used by AJ Styles. Because then it makes sense.
It's great for X-Division and multi-person matches. But other than that, was not really a fan. Imagine moving around and getting slammed in a six-sided ring (less give compared to the four-sided version.)
It got my attention. First time I ever saw TNA, I was just randomly flipping channels, and come across TNA on the regional Fox Sports channel. First thing that caught my eye was the ring. "Oh hey, that's different." Watched a couple matches, and realized the ring wasn't any better. There was less give on the rebounds, and climbing the corners for top rope moves, just looked extra difficult to keep balance. That same show, I saw Petey Williams pull out his Canadian Destroyer. I went "The F*ck was that?". First, I was surprised and rather impressed. Then they showed the replay, and I realized, "So, the guy taking the move is doing 80% of the work there. They have to do a freakin' backfilp, while the "giver" has to do a simple forward summersault. Man, that's a shitty move to pull."
The hexagonal ring was definitely interesting and different and as a viewer I liked seeing it used. But that alone isn’t a good enough reason to have it especially since it has numerous logistical limitations. In trying to do something new by changing the ring shape, they just found out why the ring is a square. It’s literally the optimal shape for this. That being said I think it could still be used as a gimmick, maybe even hype up how hard it is to work in so the crowd views it with an air of trepidation knowing the ropes are stiffer and the mat has less give. Do something like a bull rope match so now it’s 6 buckles you need to touch instead of 4, but they’re also closer together. Maybe make it so 3vs3 tag matches have to have a guy per corner.
The guy asking the question "why they thought it was a good idea." It was a good idea, the ring being 6 sided was genius and a bif selling point for TNA. Sayung it's not a good idea was one if the most foolish things I've ever read
I first tuned into TNA back when it was on FS1 when my buddies & I were wondering where Jeff Hardy was after his WWE exit. The 6 sided ring really caught our eye when we saw it and was the topic of discussion the next day at school. Lol
Ngl when I first saw TNA on FS1 in mid 2004, I thought it wasn't Pro Wrestling at first because of the Six Sided Ring, then I watched more of the show and realized it was.
I always liked the 6 sides growing up. It also paired nicely against the UFC and made WWE look outdated. My understanding is that the shorter ropes also had a lot more spring and aided the faster pact high flier modern style like AJ doing springboards. The shorter distance added to that. I think Sting mentioned how much it threw off his ring awareness.
I liked the 6 sided ring. It got my attention in 2004 when I randomly was channel flicking on a Friday afternoon and saw D-lo Brown in a strange ring on sports sports net with the time board on top of the screen. All of that seemed different and I liked it.
If it was an event, the 6 sided 2v2v2 tag match, Something like that a three way mach so there more space. Second it has to be larger so the sides have the right give.
they could use the 6 sided ring just for cage matches? the six sides of steel is a cool looking cage and different enough to make it appear like its anything but a standard cage match
All the moves involving the ropes etc that wrestlers can do in their sleep have to be re-learned, it's sadly a bit easier to get hurt in the cooler looking ring.
i cant lie it really grew on me it was another one of those things that was like a TNA signature no one else doing it at the time made TNA feel special atleast to me lol
I was completely oblivious to AAA back then. And when I first saw TNA, the six-sided ring was what stood out to me as a kid. It was different and fresh for American pro wrestling fans. I never had to take a bump in it, so maybe my opinion doesn’t matter. But once they changed it, TNA began to lose its luster.
Being different was a benefit. The 6-sided ring gave TNA an identity and an immediately different look from WWF, which did bring it attention. Unfortunately, a different ring shape wasn't enough to keep that attention.
This TNA felt different. I was in 8th grade and I saw it on eurosport and was like OMG WHAT HEY THAT'S KURT ANGLE WHAT, WAIT WHAT THIS MMA RING I remember the first match I saw was Senshi against Amazing Red and Sonjay man I was sold it was like nothing WWE were doing with their big lumbering dudes and chinlocks...
The reason for the hexagon ring was simple - it was the only thing that got TNA traction in the toy market. Great interviews exist on the subject. Ya gotta find your money somewhere.
I thought the mindset behind the 6 sided ring was to make them look more like the UFC that was just starting to get mainstream popularity at the time, with many at the time thinking it would eventually eclipse boxing so TNA were just trying to get on the coattails of what they thought the next big thing was going to be. Obviously UFC did get pretty big and is still big business, but it plateaued a lot sooner than people expected.
Hogan said "that ring don't work for me brother! Get a rhombus!"
"Now somebody explain to me what a rhombus is, brother."
Watch your mouth.. Hogan invented the obtuse triangle
Hulk was going to be the first star of the Octagon, as he fought Pride fighters in the 1970s, but guys got beat up for real after the match should’ve been stopped.
I think it's a fair request considering he body slammed a 700 lb Andre in front of 200,000 people and was the only reason Metallica ever got over...
🥧 = 3 brother
I don't do decimals
That era TNA > AEW
This era TNA > AEW
And it's shit.
Anything....like gum on the bottom of my shoe....>AEW.
AEW is a joke that never lands the punchline.
Tna>aew. No qualifier
Talk about a cold take 🤣
Yeah just gritty on production 😅
Not gonna lie, I thought that TNA's 6 sided ring was kinda cool growing up due to how unique it was. I was kinda bummed once they started using the 4 sided ring after Hogan signed with them.
We all did and I was born in 72.
I miss the 6 sided ring. It was one of the reasons why tna appealed to me.
It was one of their trademarks during a great time for them. Loved TNA 05-09
Styles and the guys hated having X Division matches in there.
Jeff Jarrett has long since stated that he used a six-sided ring because the toy companies would produce it. The toy companies wanted something different from the WWE ring.
Not quite.
Stores only wanted WWE toys.
But they would stock the six-sided ring. No other TNA toys would get onto store shelves, only the six-sided ring.
He lied he stole it from mexico , the ship has sailed on the “Jeff had a plan” idea…
Lol that's not even true dude
This thread is a work
Yeah, that’s not true at all. Jeff first used the six sides because he said AAA used it and thought it was cool and different. Then figure and gaming companies came to tna because they liked that tna used a six sided ring.
TNA in it’s Prime was actually a viable alternative to the WWE
At least the small guys they push looked like wrestlers and athletes or atleast look good enough for TV and theu didn't job their big guys and used them in top card. AEW initially was good after Cody left the decline was rapid.
Note the decline ramp up as the Cucamonga kids started eating up all the tv time left by Cody’s departure, and started pushing their vision of SoCal PervWG garbage “comedy” to Snowy Khan
“Comedy” that makes Brendan Schaub look like George Carlin.
@@AnnoyedRocket-ep6dnTheir small guys were 220lbs of muscle, their old guys were 35-45, and the ghost of WCW they were chasing was only 5 years gone instead of 25
No it wasn't. TNA would have only been a viable alternative if it had owners would were willing to spend money. The Carters were actually richer than the McMahons, and had more money than WWE as a company at the time but they never considered TNA to be a legitimate business investment. They would pay the taxes and office staff but wouldn't invest anything into salaries, Marketing, etc. If they had sold to viacom, and gotten rid of Dixie, they could have had a chance to compete. But the Carters wouldn't sell because they only bought it because it made Dixie happy.
@@constablekennedy7705 absolutely true
It was part of the appeal of TNA at its peak. They had a different aesthetic from WWE. It’s part of how NXT grew as fast as it did, just had a fresh, different vibe.
Yup and AEW had an opportunity to do what TNA and NXT did…. And they messed it up
I loved the x division and the knockouts division.
It worked for the X Division matches.
After Kurt Angle debuted in TNA, I remember one of the taglines: "Our ring has 6 sides, but only one Angle". It really clicked with me.
Perc angle was one of a kind
I miss those 2005-2009 years
They were producing better content than wwe those years. I was hooked lol
2009 tna was meh
For me, the hexagon ring was what TNA special and kinda unique from WWE.
For the record: I didn't know other companies also had it.
First rhombuses, now hexagons. If we keep sending shape-related questions and topics, we could end up a Jim Cornette Geometry omnibus by July.
Would that actually be a rhomnibus?
@@stfi7566 Hardy Har Har!
@@stfi7566 DUDE TOTALLY
I've learned more about shapes and geometry just in this past week of Cornette clips than I ever have in school.
School of Cornette 😁
We need a Rhombus ring next lmao
@@210Dineroevery ring is a rhombus
@@GreatestWCWchampion every ring is a kite
You should probably learn from school still cuz a hexagon is a paralellogram (0:16)
Just wait until Tony Khan decides to use a decagonal ring
Or a triangular ring
Fuck it, just have them wrestle on a line like fencing.
@@OzzyOscyyeah one long apron. Lots of opportunities to get crippled.
Instead of the squared circle, aew will have the circled square
I Absolutely loved the six sided ring especially since it made TNA different from WWE and made them the alternative to WWE TNA started using the six sided ring in 2004 they had a traditional ring when they started in 2002.
The biggest benefit of that ring was how much better it worked for Monty brown doing the pounce
during a table for 3 with AJ Styles, Jeff Jarrett, and Sting. Sting hated it, AJ loved it, and Jeff Jarrett claimed that was the only thing that got them any shelf space in the toy stores.
Brian really struggles with his shapes 😂
I liked the six-sided ring for the X-division. The cage matches looked better with 6 sides instead of 4 sides.
I loved the six sided ring! It looked cool!
AJ Styles said he really liked working in the six-sided ring
So heard that he didn't like cuz it was so bad on his back
Instead of 4 front rows now you have 6 front rows. Cha Ching!
Not really
More like 5 instead of 3, due to the entrance way.
@@dgthe3 usually they'd still have the 4 barricades
It was a great concept and as Jim said it's harder on the body, I'm how AJ's flip bump from Ultimate X and how Chris Daniels felt falling off it nearly head first from Ultimate X/Elevation X. Very little give OUCH.
Jeff said the 6 sided ring worked wonders for selling toys..
The hexagon ring was very unique, It looked different
Groundbreaking.
6 sided ring was great for Ultimate X and cage matches
Hexagon works great if you push triangle/three-way tag matches.
You could also have a Trios Match with each participant having their own corner.
Six-way tag match with only two guys in the ring at a time, and you can tag anyone.
Gotta write gimmick matches that rely on a Hexagon and cannot be done in the squared circle.
Back in the day I was excited to have pro wrestling back on free television in Germany, but as soon as I discovered the six sided ring I turned off. It was much too gimmicky for me.
The 6 sided ring is the exact reason why I started watching TNA, so it did intrigue some fans. Next, I kept watching because the X-Division was on fire back then. They utilized the hexagonal ring incredibly. Then, you had gimmick matches, like the infamous 6 sides of steal cage match, which just came across as more barbaric. Sabu and The Monster Abyss had some classic brawls. Lastly, look up Elix Skipper’s cage walk, it is one of the craziest cage spots in history, something like that wouldn’t be as likely in a regular cage.
@user-vj9qz3br6l: Elix Skipper even had a "Ropewalk Preview" in the last days of WCW. The Announcing Crew said that they didn't think that they had ever seen such a move before. Part Spoiler from World Class (who of course influenced The Undertaker, then known as Texas Red) and Part Frankensteiner!😂🎤🐴🤠🤸♂️🤼♂️B.W.
Jim and Brian should have a regularly occurring segment where they talk about shapes.
As a kid, I loved the hexagonal ring.
Toryumon had the six sided ring before AAA did.
At some point we just might get a Jim Cornette Shapes Omnibus.
the only thing I can think of is the Elimination Chamber
TNA’s hexagonal ring was what set them apart and was perfect for The Alpha Male’s
*POUNCEEEEEE!* PERIOD!
Jeff Jarrett covered this nicely. Shelf space. Get their merchandise on the same shelf next to wwe.
We didn't get TNA weekly shows here till like 2010/2011. I cant remember what it was but I remember flicking through TV channels around 2008ish and we came across some TNA. The 6 sided ring instantly caught my brother and I's attention and we watched it and ended up looking to see more TNA online
Strap match where you gotta touch all corners would be the only thing I can think of.
Prime TNA was so good
Jeff Jarett I believe once said the ring used on the first TNA show was actually an old WCW ring. Think the 6-sided ring came in around 2004 until Hogan and Bichoff came in, then it came back at points after.
Jim would be fascinated by Arena Football.
Jeff Jarrett said merch wise they sold more 6 sided rings than all other wrestler merch combined
The six-sided ring is what grabbed me when I first saw TNA randomly as I flipped through channels
The thing that wasn't taken into consideration by TNA management, or ignored, was that lucha wrestlers did mostly rolling bumps instead of flat back bumps. This made it easier to take the toll of the six sided rings.
In TNA they were taking flat back bumps in it, which made it a lot harder on them.
I loved the ring, and Lockdown ppv had the 6 Sides of Steel so it could work there.
There is a segment with WWE where three wrestlers sit down and have discussion. There is one where AJ Styles and Sting debate over this topic.
The concept of the extra corners was alright, but the ring they had was very small.
Jeff has said that a big reason he kept the 6 sides was that the toy company loved that it looked different.
As Lance Storm put it, TNA was using a ring designed for a specific style of wrestling that AAA used for specific shows that were all about showcasing that specific style of wrestling. TNA used that ring for all of their shows while rarely ever using that specific style, those three on three tercias matches and or Australian rules stuff, basically resulting in a less safe work environment for the sake of visuals.
That ring is why I liked TNA when I first came across is! I thought the Hexagonal ring was cool as shit! It definitely served its purpose!’
Should make a round ring, the circle circle
TNA 6 sided ring PPV throwback make it an annual thing
Wonder if a 6 sided ring could be made moderately softer without being exorbitantly expensive/complicated.
I swear they DO bring this back for an annual PPV or special event
"I might not can beat you with 4 sides, but if the ring has 6 sides, I can take ya."
I mean, that's an angle that could work REALLY REALLY WELL if that line was used by AJ Styles. Because then it makes sense.
It's great for X-Division and multi-person matches. But other than that, was not really a fan. Imagine moving around and getting slammed in a six-sided ring (less give compared to the four-sided version.)
I once put together a 6 sided ring for a British promotion. It definitely was harder to bump on than a regular ring.
It got my attention.
First time I ever saw TNA, I was just randomly flipping channels, and come across TNA on the regional Fox Sports channel. First thing that caught my eye was the ring. "Oh hey, that's different." Watched a couple matches, and realized the ring wasn't any better. There was less give on the rebounds, and climbing the corners for top rope moves, just looked extra difficult to keep balance.
That same show, I saw Petey Williams pull out his Canadian Destroyer. I went "The F*ck was that?". First, I was surprised and rather impressed. Then they showed the replay, and I realized, "So, the guy taking the move is doing 80% of the work there. They have to do a freakin' backfilp, while the "giver" has to do a simple forward summersault. Man, that's a shitty move to pull."
The hexagonal ring was definitely interesting and different and as a viewer I liked seeing it used. But that alone isn’t a good enough reason to have it especially since it has numerous logistical limitations.
In trying to do something new by changing the ring shape, they just found out why the ring is a square. It’s literally the optimal shape for this.
That being said I think it could still be used as a gimmick, maybe even hype up how hard it is to work in so the crowd views it with an air of trepidation knowing the ropes are stiffer and the mat has less give.
Do something like a bull rope match so now it’s 6 buckles you need to touch instead of 4, but they’re also closer together. Maybe make it so 3vs3 tag matches have to have a guy per corner.
The guy asking the question "why they thought it was a good idea." It was a good idea, the ring being 6 sided was genius and a bif selling point for TNA. Sayung it's not a good idea was one if the most foolish things I've ever read
I first tuned into TNA back when it was on FS1 when my buddies & I were wondering where Jeff Hardy was after his WWE exit. The 6 sided ring really caught our eye when we saw it and was the topic of discussion the next day at school. Lol
Ngl when I first saw TNA on FS1 in mid 2004, I thought it wasn't Pro Wrestling at first because of the Six Sided Ring, then I watched more of the show and realized it was.
I thought I heard an interview with Jeff Jarrett and he said it was done to sell toys. It was simply about merchandise sales
The illustration is an optical illusion because to me it looks like that truck is in motion
Hey, its A TNA concept from Jim, Win is a Win 😂
I always liked the 6 sides growing up. It also paired nicely against the UFC and made WWE look outdated. My understanding is that the shorter ropes also had a lot more spring and aided the faster pact high flier modern style like AJ doing springboards. The shorter distance added to that. I think Sting mentioned how much it threw off his ring awareness.
It looked different, plus the smaller guys worked well in it. That first drew me back in the AJ Styles days.
Somehow has to try, for us to know if it's a good idea.
Shapes are becoming a recurring theme
I liked the 6 sided ring. It got my attention in 2004 when I randomly was channel flicking on a Friday afternoon and saw D-lo Brown in a strange ring on sports sports net with the time board on top of the screen. All of that seemed different and I liked it.
Hell in a Hex!
If it was an event, the 6 sided 2v2v2 tag match, Something like that a three way mach so there more space.
Second it has to be larger so the sides have the right give.
they could use the 6 sided ring just for cage matches? the six sides of steel is a cool looking cage and different enough to make it appear like its anything but a standard cage match
A one night only match for when AJ Styles does a retirement run has been the only reason I can think of for it returning
I remember AJ saying he preferred the hexagon ring
All the moves involving the ropes etc that wrestlers can do in their sleep have to be re-learned, it's sadly a bit easier to get hurt in the cooler looking ring.
The ring did look cooler when I was a kid, but it was interesting to find out it was a headache for the talent
i cant lie it really grew on me it was another one of those things that was like a TNA signature no one else doing it at the time made TNA feel special atleast to me lol
6 sides for Ultimate X is the only real need to bring it out.
It made the X-division and AJ did some crazy shit in that ring.
I was completely oblivious to AAA back then. And when I first saw TNA, the six-sided ring was what stood out to me as a kid. It was different and fresh for American pro wrestling fans.
I never had to take a bump in it, so maybe my opinion doesn’t matter. But once they changed it, TNA began to lose its luster.
My friends and I liked the 6 sided ring because it was different, and I remember when Hogan came in and changed the ring to a 4 sided one.
Being different was a benefit. The 6-sided ring gave TNA an identity and an immediately different look from WWF, which did bring it attention. Unfortunately, a different ring shape wasn't enough to keep that attention.
Bring back the six sided ring and have a Texas Bullrope match 😂 It's not over until you touch six corners uninterrupted!
This TNA felt different. I was in 8th grade and I saw it on eurosport and was like OMG WHAT HEY THAT'S KURT ANGLE WHAT, WAIT WHAT THIS MMA RING
I remember the first match I saw was Senshi against Amazing Red and Sonjay man I was sold it was like nothing WWE were doing with their big lumbering dudes and chinlocks...
Tna when they had that ring it was fresh and i thought it made the show stand out. Tna in the beginning very cool.
i liked the 6 sided ring. i think the design coulda been improved to make it easier on the talent (make it more bump friendly etc)
Hated the hex ring as a kid, looked too weird. Now, I fully understand why they used it.
NXTNA not helping buy rates for TNA PPVs.
Miss the Hex ring honestly, it made TNA stand out
Would love to see a football game with three teams competing against each other. What kind of field would that look like 😂
A triple threat super bowl
6 sided rings set TNA apart from the other indie promotions fighting for the no 2 spot. I liked it
The reason for the hexagon ring was simple - it was the only thing that got TNA traction in the toy market. Great interviews exist on the subject. Ya gotta find your money somewhere.
This man hates shapes! I CHALLENGE YOU TO A SIX-SIDED RING MATCH! 😂
It's a Geometry-centric podcast.
Lets Get a triangular ring to be unique.
It gave TNA its identity. When you saw the toys in the isles before any other wrestlers, you saw that 6 sided ring.
More shapes discussion.
It was a game changer for TNA
It was because hexagons are the bestagons
The six sided era of TNA cruiserweights was something special
I thought the mindset behind the 6 sided ring was to make them look more like the UFC that was just starting to get mainstream popularity at the time, with many at the time thinking it would eventually eclipse boxing so TNA were just trying to get on the coattails of what they thought the next big thing was going to be.
Obviously UFC did get pretty big and is still big business, but it plateaued a lot sooner than people expected.