Alice Munro’s family kept a terrible secret for decades. Now they want the world to know
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- Guest: Deborah Dundas, opinion section editor
A chilling revelation has surfaced almost a month after the death of Canada’s literary giant, Alice Munro. Andrea Skinner - who is Munro’s daughter - has revealed in the Toronto Star that her stepfather Gerald Fremlin sexually abused her when she was nine years old. She was only able to tell her mother in a letter when she was in her 20s. Her mother chose to remain with Fremlin, even after discovering the abuse. For nearly five decades a conspiracy of silence has loomed over the family - casting a chill over the legacy of Canada’s Nobel laureate - and raising questions about how society appears to view and protect its icons while uncomfortable truths and complicit silence lurks just beneath the surface. More than anything else, this is the story of a survivor and her courage to speak out so others might follow.
A warning that his episode contains descriptions of child sexual abuse and might be triggering. Please take care while listening.
Strip away all the accolades and this is a story of a mother who did not support her daughter.
I can’t think of anything lower than this for a mother. Heinous.
Or anything lower from a human being! 'So many complicit people! It's heart-wrenching and stomach-turning. I don't know whether to cry or vomit.
But her bio father knew this as well and did nothing
My children were abused by someone we loved at the time. When we found out we immediately believed our children and cut off all contact except to confront the abuser and to stop any other children from being abused.
Let this be a warning to mothers that betray their children so cruelly.
I have never been a lover of short stories, with the exception of Agatha Christie. Tried reading Munro's work, but was for some reason uncomfortable with most of those I tried to read. I feel now that I don't even want her books in my home. Such a great disappointment. 😪
@@elizabethk3238 Agatha Cristie wrote thrillers. Alice Munro wrote brilliant literary pieces. Take her books to a great library, pray!
@@JimiBegbaaji Yes. You get all kinds of literary awards, A Nobel prize legions of people who protect your heinous truth because they make money off of you. These supporters are all part of the problem and they are just as guilty as Munro.
I have read quite a few of Alice Munro‘s short stories and found them amazing absolutely brilliant. However, I did feel something like a discomfort with somehow the personality of the writer of Monroe herself as it came through or as I’ve read about her life, not in relation to the cover-up of the sexual abuse, I just found out about this today, but there was some thing that nagged at me so maybe you were right and not reading her especially if you were personally affected by trauma
Every adult failed little Andrea. According to her, when Munro found out, she mentioned her husband had other "children's friends. So, her complicity was beyond Andrea's abuse.
Alice Munro is now a dirty word; her writing and awards a travesty.
@@marrisa17 So true! She suffered alone- despicable!
They didn’t want to upset the money cart. So they sacrificed a nine year old.
Horrible horrible mother
Yes, horrible, horrible mother.
Public scammed by media refusing to cover this years ago and by Munro staying silent when she found out. Alice Munro is now a dirty word as is the media. How many other children became victims of this pedophile as a result??? Kudos to Andrea for her courage in speaking up and trying to protect other children.
It wasn't the media. It was the publishers who kept the secret.
Wasn't the media. It was the publishers.
It was the publishers, not the media. And this was public information. You could have found it out too.
She caused it by chapter 17 of Pope St. Paul VI's encyclical 'Humanae Vitae'. He got used to contraceptive methods, and therefore, lost respect for his stepdaughter.
@@SantanaCampbell This is outrageous! How can you blame a child???!!! And the rest is absurd too! Contraceptive use is not the reason for pedophilia. Blame the abuser and those that cover up abuse! PROTECT CHILDREN not reputations!
It Happened to me. My mother considered me a threat and encouraged me to go away like to another country. At the age of 20 years old the stepfather kicked me out as I didn't do what he wanted me to do. My life has been a constant struggle without any family support. I tried to make a new life in Australia but it is still a struggle up until now at the age of 80 years old. I strongly wanted to ended it many times it but been a Christian it goes against my Christian values. I never saw my mother for forty years until she died. She could have a lovely daughter in her life but she prefered this monster her husband. When she died the tears came down for three months not because she died but because I missed having mother and she missed having a loving daughter.
I’m so sorry honey ❤
@@deboracopeland4795 😍thank you
@@helencarandreou7368 Thank you for sharing your story. You have remarkable courage❣
@@giovanna722 I had no choice. Some people helped along the way. I had a massive break down at 39 years old and a good samaritan came along and helped me. I will never forget her. Thank you for caring to make a positive comment.
@@helencarandreou7368❤️🦋🙏❤️
Evil! Terribly tragic for Andrea. They made her feel like a "ghost" of sexual abuse. Shame on those adults!
everyone had to die in order for Andrea to be free.
22:14 🧐 The media is STILL failing Andrea by saying things like this will not negatively affect how Alice Munro will be read but instead sharpen it, ESPECIALLY in this context. 😟 When are people going to get that when someone enables an abuser that is itself abusive? *Supporting an abuser invalidates, devalues, and abandons the survivor, and implicitly sanctions their mistreatment. Many survivors say it is MORE painful than the original abuse.*
You don't get to choose a p---phile over your own daughter and use her pain as "material" (22:13 🤮) and stay on MY bookshelf. There's no amount of artistic "genius" that can remove the stench of such cruelty, and there are PLENTY of great artists to read, watch, and listen to whose sales aren't an implicit repudiation of survivors of abuse.
Love and solidarity to Andrea, and to all survivors. ❤
One hundred percent agree!
I agree! I loved the poetry of Anne Sexton until I found out that she sexually abused her daughters. Alice had the intelligence and means to leave her sicko husband. Some people still praise Ezra Pound, who made anti-American and antisemitic broadcasts from Italy, during WWI.
I have 3 degrees in literature and we were never told about any of the creepy lives of the authors. It wasn't until decades later that their personal lives were exposed.
There should be an exposé anthology on this.
Who are you talking about, specifically? Nabokov is one I can think of..
No villain women authors? Only men? Sure.
It was probably not only Andrea. Any child within his orbit would have been at risk. Alice should have taken his a** to court, especially when he confessed in a letter
Concentric circles of secrecy. Adjacent, overlapping...stacks & venn diagrams of circles of secrecy. Her brother told, her step-Mom told...& then everyone shuttered the windows & turned the tv up louder. She was a child & her whole family, including her step-Dad & Mom, abandoned her & left her to deal with that abandonment & how it collided with the sexual abuse.
Very brave to come forward, to tell the truth, to let other survivors know we're not alone. The millions & millions of us....we're not alone. Thank you, Andrea Skinner 🌿
So true and thank you for sharing your story. The more people speak up the better. Impressed with Andrea’s courage in the face of such a cover up. Munro’s reaction was so selfish. Is there a possibility Munro herself was abused? Although this might explain it would not absolve her. A nine year old girl abused is unconscionable!!!
the devastating irony - Munro was such a keen observer of human nature
And clearly an absolute sh!t practitioner of it
Yes sick. Really. really sick.
A horror.
Author Alice Miller “ The drama of the gifted child” - A psychologist whose work on child abuse and trauma is considered groundbreaking, her son wrote a book about his unhappy childhood that included physical abuse.
I know a number of survivors who’ve found some healing through The Gatehouse.
Glad to learn she was able to reconnect with her siblings.
All of the adults involved failed to protect a child and this is absolutely despicable.
Alice Munro’s daughter is in my hopes and prayers for healing and happiness. I’m thankful for her courage, fans of her mom like myself wish her all the best and are incredibly disappointed with her mom for failing her.
There is no greater or more damaging betrayal in this world than a mother betraying her child. Choosing your relationship with a man who has abused your child over that child is depraved and despicable, period. The damage done by the abuse can be dealt with and managed, but the damage done by your mother betraying you is profound, deep-rooted and lifelong. You are being shown at a young age that you cannot trust or depend on the one person in the world that should love and protect you. It is terrifying psychologically, because if that person can do such a thing to you, what does it say about what the rest of the world might do to you? The emotional and psychological terror it creates lives in your soul and can affect you all through your life.
I have absolutely no sympathy for a woman who chooses to do that to her child. My sympathy goes to the child who was betrayed and abandoned, who found the courage to speak out, and has shown such inner strength and resilience. May all the love and good things come to her - she's earned it.
As for the literary legacy of Alice Munro, I'm not a believer in judging art by the personal life or qualities of the artist, but I think it's fitting in this case that her work will probably now forever be read with the light of what we know she did shining on it. Choices have consequences.
But the scary thing is that there are indeed many "real" situations in many of her works. In addition to herself, the story subjects also include the experiences of her daughters. She even makes her daughter's pain the protagonist of the story and writes it as her own pain.
If the literary award given to her is not revoked, it seems to be a mockery of the tragic experience of the victim, telling her that "your experience is not important, what is important is this literary work, the public needs it, the country, and the world need it."
@@ashleya8479 You make a legitimate point, and I can only imagine how absolutely galling it must have been all these years for her daughter, seeing the work lauded while the personal experience that informed it was dismissed and devalued. I also feel that this should have been brought to light while Munro was still alive - she should have felt the consequences while she was still here.
I'm just not personally a fan of 'cancelling' a body of work because we find out the artist is a c**t on a personal level. ( And yes I used that word, because it's the most fitting word I can think of for a woman who betrays her child.) The work should stand on its own and be judged as such in artistic terms. It just means you learn to assess the work and the artist separately. The one can reflect on the other, but I feel personally that the work should not be 'punished' because the person who produced it was a vile human being in some respects. Just my own feeling, no disrespect at all to anyone who sees it differently, I do get it.
He slept with 9 year old the same year that he married her 45 year old mother. But father's silence?!
He married the mother in-order to abuse the daughter
Much compassion to Andrea.
Omg. I am so sorry for Ms Skinner. I wish her health and healing.
The same exact thing happened to me, except my mother wasn't in the public sector. Thank you for this and be well 🙏🏼
Compassion and healing to you ❤️🩹
Sadly, the response by AM is all too common! It is also very common for children who have been sexually abused (boys/girls) to repress the memories of abuse. I am not surprised that Andrea battled bulimia - bulimia is very common among girls who have been sexually abused. I am speaking from experience, having been abused by 3 men as a young child (2 strangers and a priest who happened to be my uncle). I successfully repressed all memories of the abuse (also typical for a survivor). I also struggled with bulimia and I was in my mid to late 30’s when the memories came flooding back. My uncle, the priest abused many of his nieces/nephews (later when he left the priesthood and became a teacher, he abused many of his students). My mom only found out about the abuse in her mid to late 70’s and she was devastated and felt betrayed by her brother… she died a couple of years later (I think of a broken heart)
Wow a lifetime of building a successful writing career and reverence and it's now gone - out in the bin you go Alice Munro.
Thank you ❤ horrible things have happened.
People will see Munro with different eyes.
@@jpv-yw2ok I don't. I didn't know anything about her as a mother. Just her wonderful work. That will continue to be a source of learning and joy for me.
Her books have been relegated to my trash bin. No excuse for enablers.
@@giovanna722Mien Kamph is also a book by a horrible person. It’s one of the most read books in human history. Sounds like a recommendation for you! Protect children at all cost 😡‼️ Not enablers of harm!
No library should keep her books on their shelves
No, we WILL read her differently. And we WON’T READ her, not as many of us. You’re not allowed to be a great writer and a terrible human in 2024! We can ALL WRITE WELL!!
What is incredibly tragic about this story is the betrayal of Andrea by her stepfather but also the betrayal by her mother. What is even sicker is the fact ,it is highly unlikely that 9 YEAR OLD Andrea, was his only victim. Both Gerald and Alice are responsible for these horrific acts of sexual violence and both should have been prosecuted. Andrea's own birth father Jim Munro and his wife knew about the abuse and they did nothing. Everyone let this young child down. That is the story that needs to be told. Literary royalty does not give Alice Munro immunity.
I wonder if she would have left him if she found out when it was happening. I think it’s disgusting especially when they stay and it continues to happen. I’ll never ever understand this. Yes most likely the mother was abused by this man. Mentally for sure. I’d like to hear from a therapist that can explain cases like this.
Ive stayed single now for 7 years after I left my ex husband my daughters father. Who was abusive to me. I left the first time he did it in-front of our daughter. That night and never looked back. We ran from shelter to shelter for two years until his trial. My daughter needed all of me. But I also know the chances of chikd abuse from a step parent and that was enough for me. She’s now 19 going into University. I might think about dating again soon. But it’s not top on my list.
Zero accountability. Women are ALWAYS victims and can do no wrong? It's always the men's faults? Sure.
Apparently Alice was aware her husband had other child "friends" so my guess is she wouldn't have left him. She turned a blind eye and enabled a pedoph ile. I don't think Alice was abused by her husband, I think she was a narcissist who had little regard for others. Alice felt like she herself was the real victim, not Andrea. Alice felt that she was being made to pay for husband's failings and sacrificing her relationship for her child was unfair. She had a very warped and disturbed view of the abuse. Only a raging narcissist could somehow make it all about them in such a situation.
The towns of Wingham and Clinton need to be held to account. Smalltown Ontario residents know everything especially to do with children. There are No secrets in small towns.
@@BrigidSamhain Yes there are secrets in small towns. But when a person has a stellar reputation as a world class artist, people can develop "amnesia" and choose to disregard anything that sullies that reputation. Denial works in many strange ways.
This mother is despicable, never mind how good a writer she was, she is not human, betraying her flesh and blood for a man?!!
It is so sad and infuriating. I am glad the sibblings could reconnect and now the truth is out.
Incredibly sad how no one came to the child’s defense. 😢
After an initial flurry of re-reading, the hypocrite Alice will be relegated to the back book shelf of the library, where she belongs.
You won’t find me reading or re-reading anything this woman has written.
Never confuse the person with their art.
I'm sure I won't be heard on this forum the way that I would hope to be, but there are some key points to be made. First people really do need to separate the person from their art. We shouldn't be surprised that people who produce great works of literature, music, painting, sculptures etc. can also be horrible people. Secondly we ask that writers, directors, actors and musicians create a public persona. That public persona is rarely an accurate version of the person. It's something created for the public because the public seems to demand it. In the case of writers they tend to be perfectly happy to release their work to the public while remaining very private. The third aspect and I think the more difficult part is that Alice Munro didn't commit the crimes. Say what you want about how heinous the crimes were, but Alice Munro didn't commit them. And if I understand correctly the daughter told Munro long after the events when she was 25 years old. The issue seems to be how Alice Munro could stay with her husband after learning of the crimes. Well that may very well be seen as a betrayal. She chose to remain with her husband after her daughter made some pretty horrible allegations. We can think less of her for making this decision, but that doesn't really make her an accomplice after the fact. There is absolutely no harm in listening to the daughter now, believing her and offering her comfort. But what do any of us gain by erasing Alice Munro and her work? The money spent purchasing the books won't benefit the abuser or the mother. Both are now dead. It won't give them the means to harm others. We simply now know something about the woman that we find disturbing. Perhaps we read her works differently knowing what had happened. But you wouldn't be enabling her abuser or complicit in maintaining the silence or forgiving the abuser or Alice Munro by removing her works from the public's eye.
By all means correct me if I have misread the articles and Alice Munro was aware of her daughter's abuse while the daughter was a child and failed to remove themselves from an abusive situation. Correct me if Alice Munro knowingly contributed or allowed the abuse. I read it as something told to her years later.
Warm greetings from Australia 🦘 Deborah ...your story warrants being turned into a documentary. This would be a major healing tool for other sexual abuse victims. I hope you do something. Best wishes 🙏
She’s lucky she’s famous. Normal folk who experience something like this didn’t no media playtime
The intro is hilariously inappropriate for this segment.
Ernest Hemingway’s family struggled with this abuse as well. So sad for the victims. Meanwhile, pornography is rampant. We need to raise the bar. Strengthen our family unit. It is under attack beginning with education.
I was a fan, but I’ve gone through the shelves and thrown out all my Munro books, I wish the Nobel committee could retroactively take her prize for Literature away
This story is so complex. As I listen I find myself getting more and more uncomfortable. It’s clear that Alice Munro was an exceptional writer. It’s also clear that she was not good at all at managing her life. While I wish Andrea had been able to reach out beyond her family to teachers etc to get immediate help in dealing with a predator. And I wish Alice had been a stronger woman and protected her daughter. But mostly I wish the predator himself wasn’t such a scumbag. What I’m uncomfortable about is reaching back in time and actively canceling a dead woman who can’t give her side of the story as lame as it would be. The interviewer is, in my opinion, spinning this like all adults are bad. Perhaps Alice herself had trauma in her own past, like losing her second child, that informed her hurtful and helpless response to her husbands’ criminality. She became a parent to her young siblings when her mother became very ill. My own mother did this and it’s obvious the toll it took on her development. This dysfunctional family deserves privacy to grieve and try to find a way back to each other. By the way, media don’t report on cases of child abuse if I’m not mistaken. The caveats for me are around making legendary heroes out of fallible humans and then taking delight in destroying their legacy. This is an American way and I’m deeply saddened by the tone of the interview.
Shall we read Lolita differently?
Lolita has a very unreliable narrator. It's appalling how many people take what Humbert Humbert is saying at face value.
@@kathrynturnbull990 Do we think Alice and her husband talked about books including Nabokov's narrator? If they didn't talk about books, how much more disappointed would we be in her literary life? Tell us more about Lolita so we don't accidently build a bonfire.
We do read Lolita differently. Maybe not you. But we do.
Bet the Toronto Star knew.....
The behavior was horrific and despicable, and Alice Munro's legacy as a person will reflect that.
However, the absolute brilliance of her writing will, and should, transcend the deeply flawed nature of the person who wrote it.
That said her daughter should be commended for her courage and admired for her efforts to bring awareness to this sad and common situation.
@@patriciahannigan7434 No it shouldn’t. This is not the 20th century and today’s generation isn’t to impressed with people with huge personal flaws like Munro had. They also react poorly when told to venerate a pathetic woman who couldn’t protect her children. Munro was a victim… she mined this misery for money. So enjoy reading her… it’s a free world but she will be a footnote to Canadian history soon enough.
Why is a journalist using the ‘right’ tag constantly?
Literary criticism of fictional works is about the story being told. Does the story speak to me as a modern person? Does it help me to understand other historical eras and how people related to one another back then? Does the work touch upon one or more universal ‘truths’ that still hold true today or is it just salacious and degenerate and unworthy to be published and freely distributed for any adult (or child) to read?
In Alice’s case the issue becomes WHO is allowed to be published and what rights, if any, do they have to keep their personal lives private and separate from their work? I think good literary criticism allows that anyone can be a writer and not just the pure and holy-minded among us (for there is no such thing as a pure and holy-minded person).
If anything these revelations will cause Alice Munro to be even more famous, and at the same time be of immense value to societies who need to become more aware of and more proactive against the kind of abuses and secrets we try desperately to keep hidden and unhealed.
You mean infamy.
I'm not condoning what she did because I am a survivor of child abuse, however, I question the timing of the release of this story. (After Alice had died.) and is it possible that Alice herself was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome after years of abuse (battered wife syndrome) to herself?
If you believe that, then you'll believe the 9 year old stepdaughter seduced her stepfather. Zero accountability here.
@@SusanA1056 The fact that she mined this misery to make money shows how contemptible she is. She knew what was happening but she and every other adult tried to protect Munro, not her child. A lot of pathetic human beings in this tragedy. This will be her legacy and she did it to herself. I mean come on, her daughter wanted Munro to be in her life but wanted to protect her own daughters from Munro’s second husband, the confessed child abuser. Munro had lots of money but couldn’t hire a town car because she couldn’t drive and depended on her creepy husband for rides? Absolutely pathetic.
Alice Munro fans, apologists, enablers, and advocates.... YOU are all complicit. Your hero is actually a villain. And YOU all ignored it. That's why you're all in denial and are hypocrites. Yup.
What is the purpose of telling it now, when her mom can't defend/explain her position?
It is indefensible
It is indefensible
Children deserve to be protected
Are you actually saying society should never say anything bad about dead people. Especially people who abuse children. Is this how you see the world?
You are the exact type of person that creates this culture around protecting child abusrs
Let’s continue to drag this eminent Canadian’s name through the mud, when she’s in her grave and can’t defend herself. These situations are very complex and as a therapist informed me, it is common for mothers fathers siblings to be in denial or hide it away because they don’t have the emotional capacity to handle something so shameful. Let’s be real, girls and women, to this day are not believed and boys don’t tell because it’s shameful for their masculinity. Munro was a flawed human being who was doing the best she could, and is a product of her time. Very few women of her era would have responded better. What does Munro’s daughter get out of this, will this ‘outing’ heal her pain? I doubt it. This is her trying to hurt her mother’s legacy, and what, eventually get a publishing deal or movie out of it? I would venture to say that this is coming out of resentments for past hurts and disappointments, along with the hurt of her Mom’s reaction to the sexual abuse revelation. Sexual abuse is a more newsworthy issue. I do give credit to Deborah Dundas for her professionalism and sensitivity in dealing with the family.
@@janmitchell641 Eminent no more. Munro knew right from wrong and chose wrong. I support her daughter and I hope she makes money off of this tragedy. How you don’t see how Munro received money, fame and awards by using her daughter’s pain is quite telling on how you view the world. You’re not fiend of survivors of family sexual abuse.
You sound like an Alice Munro apologist or Schrodinger's feminist.
So much for believe all women and children. Alice Munro's husband admitted to the crime but said a 9 year old tried to seduce him? WTF? The coven destroys itself.
Her daughter is free, she can do what she wants with her story and tell who she wants.
I believe Alice not the horrible daughter
What's wrong with you? Troll!
Munro did NOT choose her husband over her daughter. She learned about the abuse as the daughter was 25. At this point it was too late to intervene,
SERIOUSLY! I'm thinking you might be guilty of the same?
Her husband went to court when she was still married to him and pled guilty to raping her child and she stayed with him. And after the conviction when her daughter was desperately still trying to have a relationship with her piece of garbage mother. She said she couldn't come visit unless her daughter's child rapist came and visited her daughter's children. She 100% shows her husband over her daughter. And she didn't go to the police until years after. She told her mother. She left for a month. This piece of human garbage 100% picked a man over her husband. And you. Trying to justify And give reasoning to the why this piece of narcissistic garbage behave the way she did is beyond me. Do better.
Intervention you don't stay with the person who raped your child. If you found out the day after it happened or 25 years after it happened. You overboiled white potato. This isn't Sophie's choice. She had to make. The most simplest easiest thing for any human being on this planet to do should be to pick their child over the person who raped their child. Gross it's gross that I have to explain that to you.
Then Alice Munro had zero self awareness. She's no lierary academic. Just another salacious writer of titillation.