He was referring to using un-cards in commander. With unifinity having black bordered cards that conversation is skipped somewhat. The cards are legal, and outside the outliers are not broken. Like a Blanka deck running an Embiggen is not a rule 0 conversation because it is a legal card to run.
I think framing all rule zero conversations around cards that are not legal as annoying gimmicks highlights the issue. Commander players whine to god damn much, especially on the internet. Few people complain that much in person.
One problem with rule 0 is that it happens right before playing a game, rather than before a deck is built. Unless the conversation is strictly about gameplay, it’s already too late to talk about what cards can or can’t be in decks. This is more true for players with fewer cards or a smaller budget, because obviously more long-time players can switch out cards or even switch out decks at a moment’s notice. I must say the most fun I’ve had in EDH is playing on MTGO. The “rule 0 conversation” is just a description line from the host, and people either follow it or don’t. I will see OG duals and mana crypts at a “casual game” but just keep playing, because I just want to play the game. Since it is 4-player, it’s possible for anyone to win.
This is definitely true when playing with Randos, but I know in my personal play group the only Rule 0 conversations we've ever had were prior to deckbuilding. I have a buddy of mine that really wanted to play a dice rolling deck prior to Battle of Baldur's gate, so we opened the floodgates to all the illegal un-set dice rolling cards. After BBG came out, I think he's pretty much down to Krark's other thumb, which after BBG seems perfectly fine to me because of other cards that have the effect. Likewise, he wanted to play brothers Yamazaki and our group was more than willing to accommodate.
A friend in my playgroup played a deck with two copies of Brothers Yamazaki as his "partner" commanders. We all thought it was a cool idea, and it was! That's the kind of thing rule 0 enables. These kind of conversations go much better when you have an established playgroup. It's why it's important to build longer term Magic relationships if you can, with people who have the same goals that you do. I love my dudes, we've been playing over webcam since the lockdowns of 2020.
My buddy did this as well, he wanted to build a "clone tribal" deck around them. It had some decent games, but for the theme he was going for he really needed blue, so I went into Magic Set Editor and made him a red and blue version of the brothers that has the "partner with" rule written on the cards themselves. He's all about interesting decks over competitive ones, so I trust him not to make something too broken with it.
EDH IS rule 0. It's a 'kitchen table' format. Some guys got together and made up rules to play a chill game with cards they didn't get to use regularly. The real problem is that EDH is the premier format. It's far easier to play standard/modern/legacy.. Wizards formats.. and make friends to play commander with. I can't imagine just walking into an LGS and trying to play EDH with 3 random people.. it'd be exhausting, not fun.
@@king.eternal5980 THIS. People dont get that EDH is made up by players, it was supposed to be some funny jank you do between tournament rounds of actual magic. Complaining its unbalanced is like complaining that a skyrim mod is unbalanced
The amount of commander games I have played that are funny jank games vs it's turn 4 I have 8 mana and I play 2 spells for free and you lose half your life rounded down. Is wild, you can call commander a kitchen table format if you want, you can say commander is all about funny jank, but that is invalidated the second someone at my table plays full control or sheoldred ECT ECT, the fact is that most commander games are about speed running, how to build an icbm out of cardboard... How does rule zero come into play in such a format then? Well the players of that exact game, are also the rules committee... Most people call that a conflict of interest and so the entire point of rule 0 is lost.
@@Duransurik you're playing different games. Imagine you went to a game night. Board games and drinks. Chill and have fun. Then when you go there, risk was set up.. no one is having fun now. The person that wanted to play risk is watching you be miserable and you can't drink enough to make it fun. No one had this rule 0 talk. You both went to have a good time though. Had the same expectations in your head. Edit: maybe more to the point. If you're invited to a game night and were told the theme is 'whatever deck you want just throw 60 cards together'. One person brings jank from their old cards, one person brings affinity with 4 sol rings, another person brings a Precon deck from Onslaught. Literally the same problem as commander with randoms. Who would ever expect that to work? The point is, commander isnt ABOUT fun jank. It's about playing a 4 player game. The pod decides what game they're putting on the table. For one of my pods, it's nostalgic cards we grew up with. For another it's about doing things we couldn't get away with in a standard format. For the other it's about doing something with our hands while we catch up and have a drink.
For the most part my experience with rule zero is people being upfront that they want to play a CEDH deck, and wondering if anyone else has one. Otherwise people just sit down and play.
That Mark Rosewater tweet pisses me off. That is showing the rule 0 working as intended, people don't want to play with un-set cards on a regular basis. By making some of them legal, you are empowering people to ignore the rule 0 conversation around them and forcing majority of players to play with this un-fun (no pun intended) anomaly in MTG.
The irony is a handful of the un cards are fine. I think “saw in half” is a great little card that turns any creature into a wurmcoil engine. Some do get a little too crazy
@@LoneSkag I mentioned this on another video, but there are 41 cards from Unfinity that weren't part of the stickers/ attractions mechanic, & for the most part they're fine for typical play.
I made a guy mad because he had an attraction deck but I said I wouldn't play if it was running any acorn or silver border. I was accused of hating fun. I had to tell him to hat I just don't like throwing cards in the air and other ultra wacky crap that turns the game into a chaos fiesta, but it's insane to expect me to have to remember every single weird unset card that does things like that and then specifically list them off so I just blanket say no.
@@CameronsVideo Fair enough. If it were me I'd say "I don't care if it's black or silver if it doesn't have any wacky bullshit. It doesn't then go for it." I never played with attractions myself though.
The thing is Unstable was so well designed in my opinion that a lot of people wanted to play those cards in commander. Baron Von Count is super fun, Mary O'Kill is really bad, but I love the idea and really want her deck to work (unfortunately her ceiling is a 4 mana 5/5 with an ok protection ability). Unfinity had a lot of mechanics that were annoying, low impact, and not that fun.
To respond to the two parts this is. 1. I have been playing commander for over a decade now. I can say over the hundreds to maybe over a thousand games I have played over that time period I have had the rule 0 talk about 1 - 2% percent of that. This conversation never really happens in my experience. People just sit down, pull out a deck and we see what happens. Sure, things get frustrating sometimes but that is just the game. Almost all of my rule 0 talks have been "We don't want to play against "x", or no infinites or ect..." or "The RC really got salty huh? So do you all care that I play "x" card?" Not a we are playing this today or not. The problem with rule 0 talk is the only ones really having it are the ones that just want to complain or secretly pub stomp people with an "um, technically" type of technicality to their own rule 0 complaints and refusals. The RC doesn't really matter in these talks. 2. The opinion or statements of the RC are and will remain entirely irrelevant to any conversation with the format until this becomes a real format with WotC.The ban list is subjective, the philosophy is not enforced equally. They don't really care about the health of the format because it is still an unofficial format and they can't actually police it if they did and tried. The ban list for commander should not exist because Rule 0 exists and it should be up to the individual pods/TOs to police the type of environment that their players are going to be subjected to. Especially in a proxy friendly format supported by WotC themselves.
I mean The pod saying "Hey we don't wanna play X" or someone saying "I don't wanna play with Y" are both equal examples of Rule 0 in place. Not really a difference between em. What's your statement of >The only ones really having it are the ones that want to complain ? Experience? If so that sucks, sorry you went to the table with toxic people. It doesn't invalidate the idea of having it, just some of the people implementing it. I also mostly have an "I don't care bring whatever" kind of attitude. But that's also an implicit Rule 0 conversation. "I'm fine with everything."
RC banlist is awful and hippcritical. Moxes are banned but solring and mana crypt are not, sol ring legal because they dont ban card for popularity but popularity of golos lead to ban. But they say it because golos too strong, then why not ban thoracle? Oh rule0 it? Why then you have banned golos? Too popular and too strong? Then why there is sol ring are legal? Etc.
@@erfarkrasnobay The joke of it all is the RC only bans cards they were made to feel salty with like a lot of the other cards that aren't RL and over 2k to buy.
Rule Zero is new and so is the Rules Committee- they have their own UA-cam channels like Command Zone and work with Gavin at Wotc to make their own version of EDH
I actually think that there's a greater problem than just stickers and attractions. I think its a community problem. Most players nowadays (from what I've seen) expect people to be well versed, knowledgeable and skilled. I'm not. I haven't really touched MTG since Lorwyn and I'm not sure if I'll ever get cards again. My short story about Rule 0: I went to my LGS at a friends invitation and I was told that I can join. BUT I had to be the 4th wheel. When I showed up, I was handed a literal stock precon that wasn't even sleeved (everyone else had their decks sleeved). I wasn't given really any time to actually look at the deck, study it or even really make upgrades. The deck had only 5 or so ways to draw additional card. I spent pretty much the entire game praying for topdeck responses that I didn't know if I had. Players also ended up getting frustrated when I asked to see most of the cards being played since I didn't know what they did. And tack onto it, I was the weakest deck at the table and the target of all 3 other players. The only reason I wasn't the first to lose was because I hit a single big card that let me take a player out. Otherwise I was the whipping post for the next 2 hours. Not only was I playing basically a stock precon (i knew of like 3 cards that could help me [Palantir, One Ring, Urza's Saga]) but everyone else at the table had a custom deck that they had had multiple occasions to practice and play with. Two of the players had at least 4 different decks available with them AT THE TABLE. No one offered me an alternate deck. Please note I'm not saying that I expected or even asked. I hoped that the rest of the table might have the thought that "hey maybe we shouldn't give the new player the objectively weakest deck at the table. Maybe we should give them a "nice" deck so that they can have fun. This was not the case. When I brought it up later that I basically had zero fun I was told that I was expected to just shut up, stop complaining and shuffle. They wanted me to be thankful that THEY allowed me to play with them. I literally lost a friend because I told him that he ruined my game AND night. In my eyes "Rule 0" needs to be a mandatory conversation at any and all LGS'. Even if its a basic conversation "hey I want to run all enchantments and its pretty strong." or "I'm running Reaper King / Wandering Throne recursion where I'm gonna try to destroy all permanents" As you said, these conversations help everyone and by not having the convos (or refusing to have them) we limit and in some ways, gatekeep others from being able to enjoy/play/learn. In my eyes, you don't hand a new player the weakest deck at the table expect them to play well and have fun when everyone else is objectively stronger. It doesn't hurt ANYONE to make sure that new players enjoy their first times and we should be actively encouraging kindness to new players.
I've been playing this game for about 3 decades now, and I mean this without a scrap of malice: EDH is not a format for new players. If you don't have the processes of the game down, and a decent understanding of how to read a board state, start elsewhere, for your own sake. If you can't fluidly get through a game in a limited or 60-card constructed format against one player, you're going to have a hell of a time keeping up with a 4-player pod. It's not a format conducive to learning the game without first having your groundwork laid down. That's not to say you should never touch the format, though. Quite to the contrary, actually... Once you have a handle on how to get through a game cleanly, it's an excellent place to explore card interactions and game states, but having to handhold a brand new, unstudied player through a game feels like a chore for a fair number of public pods, and it tends to slow an already long game down to an agonizing pace, especially as the turns tick forward, and the board gets complex.
@@ScizonValeforn wait, you were playing what I can only assume was the Zhulodok precon, and you were having trouble still? That thing has a pretty high power floor, unturned, if you don't keep a bad opening hand...
Rule 0 can help with managing against toxic stuff, but I find it easier to allow cards to be added for a specific POD rather than asking your LGS or some random at a casual tourney to not play a legal card. Banning cards doesn't mean the rule 0 goes away, it just means we have fewer cards to go through and ask people to never play.
As someone who works at an LGS, Rule 0 just doesn't work a decent amount of the time. It is a constant struggle to manage the game experience for everyone and you can't force people to communicate, people just want to sit down and play a game not learn a whole form of etiquette and communication around deck construction just to play a game after their long day at work which leads to misunderstandings. Not to mention some players just outright lie or forget what cards are in their deck, some have 10s of commander decks and can't remember which deck has what and the store isn't going to ban them for that. On the flip side some players only have 1 or 2 decks so if their deck has something you don't like you are out of luck in a structured commander event where people are placed in pods randomly. Finally, less relating to the game itself but an LGS is also a business so anytime someone has a bad play experience and doesn't come back (sometimes not even to purchase products not just the commander events) because the format is so heavily crutched on Rule 0 and they struggle with effectively communicating or they wanted to play something but can't find the right players or they just had a rough day exacerbated by an ineffective Rule 0 then the LGS is losing business which further complicates the whole problem.
I think Wizards should just release a general guideline for power levels of edh decks so people have a general idea where to rank them, because from my experience people can never see eye to eye when talking about the power level of their decks.
nah cuz theres always the one guy saying its a 7 then it consistently turn 2 wins. like nowhere is that a 7 lol people just need to be honest. if u want to play competitive say that dont bring that to a precon table and say itll be fair
Wizards loves to play dumb like they can't do stuff because "rules" but then blatantly break their own rules when convientent. Prime example is the 30th anniversary release. Where the absolutely broke their own reserved list rules.
The only real "Rule 0" my group has is the "House Rule" where if you're playing Mr. House as your commander, if you use 4 treasures and his ability to roll 5 dice and you hit Yahtzee, you win the game. Hasn't happened yet but when it does the House player exits stage left and the other players continues for 2nd place.
1. Invite people to sit with you 2. Ask “Cedh? “. 3. Play Edh or Cedh with your new friends . Let Bryan try your dragon deck next game - he’s new and only has a Precon
Being 100% honest and truthful... none of the examples you gave have ever come in up in my lgs edh group. We have a paper with a point system similar to commander vs and thats it. Some people have precons and some have cedh decks and anywhere in between, but we never have conversations about decks. We sit down, reveal commanders and play but never have rule 0 talks
In all my years of playing commander I've only ever had a rule 0 conversation once and it was about a month ago when we got a new player joining up. He brought up if we restricted anything or not and we just said no. Every other time I've played EDH the way we responded to over tuned decks was just to slot in something we know counters said deck or strategy and just go at it win or lose. Hell I still remember this one dude who would always try to play decks that were top of the pack and he'd end up just painting a target on his back as everyone shut down his strats so we could continue playing normally. It was just one of the things you had to deal with when playing at an LGS.
With how difficult it is to rule 0 with people, my lgs included a rule in their "casual" commander tournaments. For context, they have tournament rules to prevent cEDH decks from taking over the night for the casual players by punishing certain actions like mass land destruction, too many extra turns, or winning in the first few turns of the game. But they also use a point system to determing the winner rather than purely winning matches, and each month they change 4 or 5 bonus point "side quests" that players can try to earn throughout the tournament (3 rounds) and usually are related to the set that is currently releasing. For example the current points for OTJ include casting a few spree spells for every mode, having a few mounts in play at once, having a full 'party' of outlaws, etc. Every december, they add the rule that acorn cards are legal, with a few banned exceptions, so people who want to play with those cards or even build decks around some of them are able to play them every friday and saturday in december without needing to worry about the whole rule 0 conversation getting shut down
It's just MUCH MUCH easier to ask someone to not play a certain normally legal card than it is to ask to use banned cards or non-legal commanders as a commander.
EDH bans aren't even really bans, they're more of suggestions anyways. Even if they ban stickers/attractions, you can always rule 0 to ask if anyone cares that you use them in your deck.
I would say that i disagree with the framing that players not giving the greenlight to play with silver bordered cards is rule 0 not working. For what it's worth, I feel like the blame for the phrasing lies on Mark Rosewater for framing that way, because the reality is that rule 0 simply means that as a casual format that doesn't (for the most part) exist in sanctioned, tournament play, players can adjust the rules as necessary to have a better time. I also feel the need to point out that a pre-game discussion (discussing decks, power levels, etc) and rule 0 are two different topics, although rule 0 is generally a pregame thing so we'll put that aside for another day Anyways, with regards to the framing that players being told by everyone else that no, they can't play with their Un-set cards is rule 0 not working, it is a frustratingly selfish view to have. To think that a majority of players coming together to deny someone permission to do something that they need permission to do in the first place is a failure is to say that the lone minority should rule and force everyone to bow down, which is what WoTC did with UB and Unfinity. It was blatantly a profoundly selfish act when Unfinity came out, and it remains so today. I can only hope that Hasbro was at least as complicit as Marky Mark when it came to making this shit black bordered, and I hope its a mistake we don't see repeated in the future
No, the profoundly selfish act is a sizeable chunk of the playerbase going "because I personally don't like the thing, no one should get it" and then devolving into screeching about "real Magic" and refusing to listen to anything outside of their echo chamber. I've been around since _Invasion_ block, I've seen plenty of cards and sets that I didn't like, but I've never said that any cards/sets/formats that I don't like should be removed just because they hurt my widdle fee-fees, and the entitled people who are making that argument now are the reason that I just cannot enjoy TCGs right now
@@nicholasfarrell5981 If you wanna play whatever you want without having to show the table some basic decency, then go play cEDH. That's literally made for people like you.
@@Cybertech134 and if you want to control what everyone else plays, make your own game and stop polluting this one. And take the rest of the butthurt gatekeepers with you, they won't be missed.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 The issue is that commander is a very popular casual format and as a casual format, it needs at least some gatekeeping. Without it, its like playing multiplayer games with no matchmaker. Great only for those that want to pubstomp noobs. And I get it, max level pvp characters camping low level areas is a very common trope for that reason. The issue is the players that expressly do not want fair pvp, they instead want to get into the most lopsided matches possible because it is how they have their fun. The issue is that the solution to this is a social one and not a mechanical one.
Un-set should have never been made for anything but an un-set. Rule Zero is fine if people use it to just feel out what people want to do. I've never had a problem with my play groups when Rule Zero came up because I've had some just TERRIBLE games when someone brings an abysmal deck or just wants to durdle/waste time. That's fine for them but I should be allowed to know what type of game I'm about to get into especially with commander casual games going for 30-60+ minutes.
My group has its own ban list. We can use silver border cards, proxies at will and even custom cards if the group vote its balanced enough. We ban most cards with random effects, any 2 cards infinite combo, stickers, atractions, dungeons and anything with dice. Universes beyond are mostly banned from our regular plays as well, unless they fit the fantasy vibe, like D&D or LotR. But we love playing ONLY Warhammer or only Who. We sometimes ban planeswalkers, sometimes we allow it, depends on the week. We even allow any planeswalker as commander ocasionally. Most of the time we dont allow legendary creatures among the 99. Bit we are always changing that back and forth.
I started playing 7 years ago, I had a very low budget and the group that I played didn't, so I started to play combo to have a chance against my group, that started a snowball where every game being a race of who can win first and we stop having fun, which lead me to stop playing MTG. 7 months ago me and a few friends had to urge to play MTG again BC we love it, and me made a bunch of rule 0 statements which we all agree and collaborated, to be fair to everyone, so we only build decks having in consideration that set of "house rules", so we already know what to expect, and also, when someone uses a deck that maybe its too much or unpleasant for the table we always communicate, and explain why that deck isn't fun for everybody, and until now, we didn't have a problem or anyone getting mad to dissolve a deck because its too much, we also are considering building a " no rule deck" for when we play with randoms that have high power decks, since we had a group of 4 and now we have a group of 3. It's way easier to deal with rule 0 if you always play with the same group. I only play once each 15 days (because of where I leave), and most of the time I'm playing 1v1 w my cousin that it's my neighbor and also from my commander group. So when I play with randoms, I actually don't bother since i play already too little, so i don't wanna spend time talking, just playing, but we always say "we play with low PL, just to have fun". To be fair, I live in Brazil, I've NEVER seen a rule 0 conversation happening, and since I live in a state where only have 2 store, everyone knows everyone and knows the types of decks that everyone play, and PROBABLY play according, I can't tell because we just started playing without ppl from the group. My recommendation is, find a group that shares the same concepts of fun, or at least whats NOT fun, and you'll be happy. If someone is curious, the rules that we have are: 1 no cards that have " win the game" in it. 2 no 2 card combo (but usually we do with 4 or more cards because we like combos w more setup) 3 it's better if a deck win in later turns, for example turn 8, if a deck wins too earlier its always a bad experience for us. 4 some archetypes are banned, like land destruction and stax (UNLESS the deck will not suffer the consequences and have a huge advantage, but decks that makes the game slow or make opponents not play the game are prohibited, I argue to remind that we play once every 2 weeks, for about 5 hours, so we don't matches to take more than one hour each) 5 and for last just build what you really want to play, the idea is to have fun, no problem to use a tier 0 deck, just make sure to make something of your own and that you actually like, for example a friend have a Magda deck, that its all about dwarves and vehicles, so it's not a competitive deck, but with a competitive commander.
I feel like there needs to be some official statement on Rule 0 from both WotC & the Commander Rules Committee. Not necessarily to dictate what a Rule 0 is, but to encourage the conversation & give examples of how to communicate things. In the end, a lot of MtG players are awkward nerds that don't have very good communication abilities & this game has become how we socialize. Rule 0 isn't easy to have, especially when ppl are just trying to fit in to a new environment.
I started the game with Ice Age in 1995, and I’ve played EDH off and on since 2007. I wanted to welcome all the new players - wherever Magic is at now - it will change . Welcome to the Ur-Dragon Dockside era 😊🎉
Commander is a “for fun” format, but WOTC is releasing competitive cards for EDH. - So that means the format should be treated like a competitive format. Split the format like they did with legacy/modern. - Have the CEDH players in their own competitive world. And have the casual players in their own “for fun/casual” format. - However Commander is a Ponzi scheme, and WOTC is keeping the investors happy by keeping the secondary market over inflated. Watch how fast prices would drop if people didn’t feel the need to constantly buy reserve list cards. - I would take a gander that the modern format would be the more popular than the legacy format- just like modern is more popular than legacy. Which would then tank prices, because no one wants to sit across from someone with a $900 Gaias cradle they bought for $30 25 years ago- and the card will never be reprinted. This will cut down a lot of “rule 0” and proxy BS.
Rule 0 is silly and only exists because commander isn't a format, it is a ritual. It's a game that requires social norms against the tenants of optimised play. CEDH is in a place where it works at the top because everyone is playing the game to win. But commander actively punishes interaction, trying to win early, or playing specific colours, through rule 0 and game play. This means the format isn't open, everyone is playing a ramp or combo deck to pop off and sneak out a win because people rarely interact. I like commander because I like having combo kills as a win-con, but if you're gonna punish someone else for their win-con by using rule 0 like a game of make believe then don't play. If you went to a FNM standard event looking to play your Temur Ramp deck and looked the Boros Tokens player in the face and refused to play against that deck despite being bracketed to, the whole room would be like "WTF are you here if you don't even like the format?" Asking the one player with an aggro deck at the table to play a completely different deck is just a wild and entitled take that allows people to get away with building interaction deprived decks. It turns the format into a race to draw the golden snitch and not Magic. Rule 0 is going to continue to exist, until we have a tool of some sort to power scale decks or we get a format split into true commander type II. It DOES have a place in the format but, should be done prior to sitting down. It needs to be done like a session 0 in TTRPGs, you text someone saying "Precons only for tomorrow. Is that all good?" or "Lets all play 5 colour decks next week and see who's the Colour Pie GOD." If you're bringing up rule 0 at the table as people are getting their decks out, that's not rule 0. That's an ultimatum, it gives "you're already here so you don't have the power to disagree anymore since you're already committed." In short Rule 0 is not an excuse for bad deck building, childish behaviour, or lack of communication skills.
These UA-cam channels often advise players to pratice "open communication" not acknowledging many MTG players are introverted, socially anxious or have other similar issues. If they make clear rules there wouldn't have to be a rule 0 like cEDH or other MTG formats.
EDH is a social format, so you can't get around at least some communication. You don't have to have a 2 hour session to talk about rules, a quick "My deck is strong but not optimised, how about you" is often sufficient. The Rule 0 conversation for me often is "what are you playing" "commander X, roughly Powerlevel 6-7" "Then I would play my slivers, if that's ok with you" "yeah, sure" "Ok, my commander is The first Sliver"
yeah that sounds good but that doesn’t happen everytime. there will be cases where a player misrepresents their decks and now these players who aren’t so good are communicating are either stuck feeling salty or just avoid playing altogether.
Attractions are one of the most inspired mechanics ever. If they had different themimg people would understand. Learn from Strixhaven gave you sorceries. Open an Attraction gave you special permanents. They are absolutely fantastic. And whether or not you agree with the theming being fun or bad. Mechanically they are super fun and awesome to play.
I think contraptions were much better and could fit into typical magic games much better. Attractions were tied to a lot of baggage and add a lot of time for each turn. They can be fun, but don't fit nicely in a typical magic game, thus perfect for a silver border. Maybe with a lot of reworking, they could work, but we already have stuff like dungeons, the ring tempts you, and even the aforementioned contraptions could be reworked more easily.
@@kwagmeijer26 As an attraction enjoyer myself, my turns are consistently 2-3 minutes long, while people I normally play against are 5+. Im not slowing down the game anymore than the person running Bolas Scam is.
@dragonqueenniisan4122 i agree with this. Most of the time, I roll one dice and maybe get 1 or 2 triggers. Yes, if you roll a six with a big board, they can go nuts. But def not worse than flicker/ storm decks or really any big combo like deck. :/ Hell, I'd argue turns in standard right now are longer than 3 turns of my attraction deck.
@@kwagmeijer26 I love cards like Hangman which adds a really fun minigame to the table. Yet other people hate it. But to me, this is no different a conversation than play patterns of other cards regardless of whether they are silver border or not.
I have to agree with the Mark on this one. Outside of your playgroup, such as at your LGS with strangers you have to let go of your own expectations. You can’t force people who don’t like or play UN-cards, silver border, or stickers to play against you while you get to have them. It’s not just that it breaks the game for some folks, it’s also that it doesn’t feel like MTG for me. It’s super goofy to have one person playing Phyrexians and another playing a Clown car. There are some UN-cards that can absolutely fit into MTG proper, however, UN-cards and stickers need to remain non-commander legal outside your personal group. I just go to the store expecting standard commander rules, and an open mind.
great discussion. I feel like your point re players insisting *they* dont have Rule 0 is really poignant. If that conversation doesnt happen *before* the game, itll definitely happen after. Whether thats people using all combos expecting to play solitaire, or people getting upset about kibitzing or even refusing to politic and simply playing to current board state. Some people will do obvious proxies, some people will do good counterfeits, and some people will start a poker escalation to simply outbid their opponents monetarily for an advantage. Are we trying to knock out a few games in an evening and dont super care who wins, or is every game one where people are expected to put their pride on the line. Like, that stuff is GOING to come up in and after the game if it doesnt come up before hand. I do think its frustrating that upon hearing that the opponents of people who complained wouldnt let the complainers use unfair, unfun and often exceedingly annoying negative play experience cards, the solution was to simply take that side and make everything legal. For example, I like a lot the D&D set rolling d20s and the Heads I Win deck, and those cards feel fun to me. But they're balanced, theyre black border and they dont have all the Gotcha type affects that just make old Unsets actually pretty miserable for everyone at the table except the troll. Printing Unsets in black border was a mistake, both mechanically and frankly visually too
Rule 0 conversations are extremely important in order to avoid people saying stupid shit like "it's legal so I should be able to do it", especially since the official ban list isn't updated regularly enough to be an effective balancing tool. Also just because WotC releases a card doesn't mean I have to welcome it at my table. They're a company that's about making money, not balancing the game for fun.
I think players should also be prepared for a pod at an lgs to shut them down and stuff like this. I've put random unset cards into a few of my commander decks not because they are very powerful, but just because they are funny and create weird interactions. But also, I have essentially side board cards for those decks. If I show up to an lgs and the pod I'm playing in says no to the unset cards I like to run, I'll just swap them out for basics or other stuff. Or play a different deck all together. When I go to my lgs, I bring anywhere between 5-15 different decks with me, all different power levels and all trying to do different things. I'm also fully willing to lend my deck out to a new player at the table or even someone who just wants to try something different. I think it's up to every player at the table to make sure that every player can sit down and have a good time, and some of that starts before you even get to the table.
In my opinion it’s not mark rosewaters or Magic’s responsibility to make sure people who play there game have friends/a full understanding of how to play the game they can use resources to inform players or make events for people to gather but the worst thing that can happen to magic is if the designers start making decisions on the game based on a a couple player not being able to find good play groups
I think rule 0 is for playgroups and well before people start pulling their decks out for the night. If you want to do a weird broken thing give people some notice so they can adjust the decks they put into their bag for the night. I don't like the implicit emotional extortion in a rule 0 conversation of agreeable people to a pubstomping experience.
There should never be a Rule 0 in competitive formats. Rule 0 exist only in a casual format. The only rule zero we use in our pod is on mulligans. You don't have to discard if you mulligan, however if it seems like you're stacking your hand we will call you out on it.
The problem is: I don't want those cards in EDH either, but also i don't want to be the guy who tells others they can't use their deck because WotC sold them stuff that isn't fun to have at your table. Now about Rule 0. It really works quite well in my experience. Most people have more than 1 deck, you build tables with similar power and know who to focus and who to be nice to.
I don’t particularly like proxies even in a casual setting, (unless it’s someone I know and who I know their deckbuilding won’t include unreasonably powerful cards for the setting) and as a result, I’ve made multiple people extremely upset with me for trying to adhere to my own Rule 0. Or, I’ll try to play, but every pod has someone with proxies, which means I’m forced to break my standards for fun in order to play the game. I just don’t bother playing outside of my specific friends anymore.
Ive played Edh for over 12 years. I get that not everyone loves proxies as much as me - and my tournament decks don’t have proxies . I try to meet people and play enough games with them to see where they are at on their Magic journey. It’s sad people got upset with you
I played in a commander pod playoffs where to get there players had played "casual pods". I ended up in the playoffs where the winner of the pod won a mana crypt. I brought an admittedly powerful deck because the goal of the playoff is to win. One of the players tried to "Rule 0" out powerful combo decks because "infinites are not casual" "counterspells are not casual" ect. That kind of mentality (and honestly him in general) killed commander at that LGS.
I'm sorry, but everyone demanding a Rule 0 for balance in Commander is ridiculous. Specifically, in casual EDH games. It's like demanding a conversation prior to a Modern game - sometimes some decks are going to be outclassed by others inherently. That's okay. Maybe there are some strategies you can employ to gain an advantage in circumstances like that. Same thing for Commander. Before anyone says, "but what about people who purposefully bring cEDH level decks to my table" - yes, in that case, and that case alone, Rule 0 can work. However, if it's just at your kitchen table or with your buddies? I'm sorry, but I'm not catering my decks to adhere to every permutation to any preference people have to what they want to see in a game. "No removal", "No board wipes," "No this or that'", "Only power level 7s" - All of these restrictions get to a point where building decks is impossible all because someone gets a little annoyed over a counterspell or a piece of interaction. At what point to we recognize that people just need to deal with the mechanics of the game instead of complaining?
I actually run a few decks that use un and playtest cards, BUT I run each such card by my playgroup and explain what I use it for and ask if players are cool with it before we play. "Are you okay with me running Bone Rattler or Blast from the Past?" Now... if you bring a bunch of un-cards that disrupt the rules of the established game? No. I sit down to play a game with rules I know, and making cards that deliberately disrupt how the game is played as a whole would get obnoxious... see "Queue of Beetles". I'm fine with "Cheese Stands Alone" but not *Half-mana*.
Really makes you wonder if R&D hasld any idea of what would happen with the choices they made in Unfinity. Like, how far did they think ahead, if at all? Cause they can't POSSIBLY be THIS stupid. Unless they are. Which would explain a great deal, sadly.
If it’s terrible for Commander - people won’t play it “. That’s Wotc attitude imo. Example- they reprinted Ravages of War which is obviously horrible for Edh- but luckily - most people don’t play it . Their strategy works sometimes . At my LGS no one plays attractions ( anymore ). PS I hate sticker cards
Totally agree that people refusing to play with these cards is EXACTLY rule zero working. Some things around rule zero you said I don't really agree with: sure, it should be the part of a social/recreational Commander game. Good to have it, explicit or implicit, since the end goal is basically social activity. However I don't think it really helps to say that there is an implicit "rule zero" conversation around e.g. playing modern or playing cEDH - playing a competitive game you agree first and foremost to compete and play, preferably to the best of your ability, within the framework of rules given. Which means in case of cEDH that it can and sometimes should go against "having fun for everyone" (which is and 100% should be the goal of non-competitive EDH). Rule zero is there to support the latter.
A rule 0 conversation keeps things fun for everyone who WANTS to be involved in that specific game. I dont care what Mark has to say about it. It wont stop rule 0 convos
The thing that bothers me about this is that people account for the complaints on Twitter and the like because they are there visually. But then don’t seem to account for all the people that don’t care or even enjoy the things that are being complained about. The % is likely a lot higher that people simply don’t care / mind or even like UN cards in Commander in reality but because they aren’t vocal about it online it can go unnoticed. Commander is magics most popular and most casual format and the more rules and restrictions we put on it outside of what it already has.. the more limits we are imposing. The more creativity and random deck builds we are dampening. Rule zero completely deals with any issues of Un cards. If people don’t want to deal with that level of randomness then fair enough. But let’s not try and remove it altogether. I think Un cards should defo continue to be Commander legal moving forward. Where else can you play them otherwise and what’s the point of a product you can’t play? (Sure you can draft but that’s limited compared to Commander) Embrace the limitlessness of Commander and deal with any limits that you feel you need in rule zero convos. Simple. And if the idea that rule zero is just saying no to UN cards all the time then find other players. Sorry to you if your friends won’t even give it a try. Thats a shame. But many players out there won’t mind or will even have decks themselves also. A lot of people don’t mess about with UN cards because they are banned (the old ones) so making sure that UN is Commander legal moving forward will help adjust the mindset and more people will prob try it.
I think you're missing the point. Now I can't speak for maro, but my reading wasn't that he thought rule 0 doesn't work for Stickers and Attractions, but for real un-cards. The ones that aren't legal. He's using it as an example that the rule 0 conversation exists around the framework of legality. Talking about power level, or combos, or land destruction, and broad concepts we can discuss. but if you say you're running banned cards, or silver borders, it doesn't set expectations. And so maro responding by saying that having cards in a separate category, and then asking players to decide if they should be allowed, actually puts those cards on a soft-ban list, because its a level of rule 0 that isn't, as he said, practical. To accurately convey what my un-deck does I need to show you half of it. Okay, I went on a bit longer than intended, and I do agree with most points you're making. i don't think you even denied anything I'm saying, just seemed like it wasn't the message you got from the post, and so it didn't make the discussion.
good argument, however, conter point, EDH is for fun cEDH is to win cashprize. If you come to MY TABLE, with a mf power infinity deck we're not going to be friend, mainly cuz i don't have any deck that punish you and i know it, so MY rule 0 is simple "does your deck cost a 100 buck ? yes ? why ? ho it's a old precon ? that's fine. Ho it's because it's top 10 on the fucking CEDH meta ? well change deck or don't play."
I honestly feel we need to have a rules committee writing down hard rules for Commander, Rule 0 has just gone too far. My shop has the issue of never bringing higher power decks, except for the guys who've been going to that shop since like 2001 because they got in when cards like Chrome Mox, Mental Misstep, Artifact Lands, even Mox Diamond were new and a LOT cheaper. The one group hates anything resembling real games of Magic the Gathering, meaning no good mana rocks, no infinites, no counterspells that cost less than 4 mana or have an alternative cost, no good mana rocks (Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox as mentioned above, Hell, they even say no LOTUS PETAL, a one use effect), only allowed ways to remove a SINGLE creature are board wipes that DESTROY all creatures and do nothing else (meaning cards that are word for word and equal CMC to Wrath of God and Damnation, so nothing like Anger of the Gods or Blasphemous Act), you can't be able to win before it's been like 10 table rotations (Meaning your deck needs to be slower than WOTC is to ban the other 4 Elementals, Force of Negation, any free spells in Modern), and they want everything to be SORCERY SPEED! This is just one anecdote to this conversation, there's my 2 cents
Let's be real, the biggest issue with Commander is the players. I try to have a Rule 0 at the LGS and there's always some party pooper at the table; they don't want to discuss anything. They don't want to give away any information about their cards. They don't even want to READ their cards. "Rule 0 conversation" nothing, this is all about some players being bad to play with for one reason or another.
Rule 0 works fine if the conversation can be contained within people's tolerances for the conversation. Time is the biggest annoyance, and people view in depth conversations as a time suck. My general rule is keep each person's contribution to the conversation under 10 seconds and if you need more than that, you'll need to find another group. "Hey we wanna play precon-level decks (or other deck type), you got something about around there?" "Yeah" "Cool! Let's play" That is a workable rule 0 conversation. If each person has to describe their deck and takes 30 seconds to do so, that's too long for most tastes since time is generally pretty limited and EDH already has a bad tendency to take too long.
You say that rule 0 is working because it's keeping stickers and attractions and "mistakes" out of commander. But the whole freaking point of commander is that it's an eternal format, play with everything! Just because you, or others, think stickers were a mistake doesn't mean you get to stop others from playing them. But, that is exactly what you got done saying in this video. Mark Rosewater considers many of his experiments "mistakes" but they are still valide legal cards. Hell he considers Hornet Sting a mistake, but are you going to stop people from playing Hornet Sting? The problem with rule 0 as it stands is that it makes an open environment, like a open table day at an LGS a gate kept experience when a majority of players can just say they don't like "this thing" and suddenly no one can play it. It's arbitrary. If you want a currated experience, don't play in an open venue. If you want a curated experience, create it with your friends and quit telling randos they can't play their stickers and other un-set silliness.
if a pod you're looking to join doesn't want to play with the cards or playstyle of a deck you have either change decks or find a different pod the attraction people can find their buddies that like that the UB people can find their buddies that like that the people who want "pure magic" can find their buddies like that the people who want to play cedh can find a group like that the people who don't care and just want to jam a game can find a group too
I'm curious as to what a set that is legal in Commander, but not Legacy, would look like? Even if WotC changes the rules to make this a thing, do you think they make money on it? I'm picturing "Commander Horizons" where there are massively broken must-have cards, and this is in comparison to the cards already legal in Commander. Trying to get cards into Commander while bypassing legacy sounds like a way of doing more harm than good.
As a combo player, I play cEDH only so I don't have to deal with people complaining. Rule zero experience that made me take this decision "we don't play broken stuff like fish or rhystic here" I tone my deck down a little and sit down. Same guy played a turn 1 Esper Sentinel.
I agree on Unfinity. A game with many highs and lows is better than a game that always plays it safe. I am glad they took a swing and missed with Attractions and Stickers, because it's through our mistakes that we learn.
I completely agree, but I think they need to own up to their mistake and ban those cards for commander too. Most groups would allow them anyways if you ask, but it would reduce the play they see significantly since people would only include them if they really want to.
The only rule zero in my private play group is to not cast farewell in a means to extend the game with no wincon next turn. In other words, if the game needs to end and you can't end it, don't board wipe.
Commander is straight up ruining Magic. You are correct when you sit down to play modern/standard or any other 60 card format there is no need for a “rule 0” you sit down and try to win and have fun. It’s easy. Both players know (to some extent) what they are getting into to. Commander you have NO CLUE if you’re playing against randoms. Commander is all over the place. My “level 6” deck could be a “level 10” for you. The “rule 0” is so silly since when you play with random people it’s just that. Random. With buddies it’s different, but no one is complaining about “rule 0” who only plays with their buddies.
Its almost like EDH was not meant to be played with randoms and instead as a fun pasttime between tournament rounds with the boys. Almost like the format is not the problem, but the people xD
Almost like the goal of every game isn't to "try to win" like a sweatlord and sometimes it actually is about cultivating fun. It's a good thing people like you aren't in game design.
This is the problem with opinionated people, they think they're more clever than they actually are. We could have a discussion about rule 0 if the community would like, BUT in the end it is about CONSENT. And in my experience, not doing rule 0 ends up in salt and segregation.
in my opinion, this video should had been titled "Rule 0 and Unfinity and BEYOND!!!" Attractions were doomed to begin with, as once they're "gone" your deck doesn't do anything anymore and it's not like there's over one hundred different named attraction cards. Of all the "Unfinity" cards, there are a handful that are actually good without stickers, unlike ____ Goblin. Stickers should be banned, but the cards that would use those stickers should be part of the game. Voyage of the ____ for example, you don't need nor care about putting a sticker on it. However, it's effectively another "Worldgorger Dragon" combo piece. Regardless of the existence of a sticker.
Every time Rule 0 come up I am convinced people having the conversation don't actually play the game. Go to an LGS, say you're playing a deck and its gameplan in a sentence, and try to match up based on vibes. If it doesn't work perfectly, shuffle up and adjust. You people are crazy 🤣
For me rule 0 in theory is a great idea but in practice is so hard to execute on. I can take last week where I joined a pod we were going good and every said “hey I’m gonna move to a high power deck” and I mistook that as oh they are moving to cEDH and I said can I play my cEDH deck. They didn’t hear me and said yea sure and so when I got to turn 3 they all scooped and I felt bad about the experience. Rule 0 can’t be helped in that circumstance and no one is really at fault in that situation besides maybe saying “oh you all should of clarified a bit more” well sure but we also wanted to get to another game.
A playgroup Rule 0'ing Un cards silver bordered like they should have been. Only game designers pressured from Hasbro to push sales of Unfinity affected.
Rule 0 is great, it should never be an argument or even considered like a real thing when discussing the format. Rule 0 should stay in the friend group because you can never assume people will follow rule 0
RELAX! Yes, MaRo probably hasn't played a lot of Commander Games with normal casual players. (He stated multiple times, Commander is not "his thing" (that the head designer doesn't play their biggest format is surly another topic)) But he is right that rule 0 (besides the power level pregame talk (which for me is not necessarily rule 0)) can be tricky when it comes to "hey, I want to play those banned cards" Even if it is really just a harmless silverborder nonsense deck, their are a lot of people who "mask" their broken power fantasys. I understand why many players are hesitant to make bigger allowances/changes with rule 0. Also it is always a bummer when there is a "no, you can't play that" at a table (unbanning cards of the list or vice versa banning more stuff than is on the list). That's why most people like to stick to the "normal" rules. That's why I think you over exaggerate MaRos Comment.
It's always funny when people get mad at my Angel & Demon tribal deck cause it plays Mana Crypt, Field of the Dead, Demonic Tutor, and Smothering Tithe (no infinites, minor stax, and the only mana sink is Pestilence Demon). If someone complains my deck is too good because I play too much fast mana and generic tutors I swap to my $150 Haldan Pako deck which is higher power (obviously if the rest of the pod is cool with it)
Who are all these people that feel rule 0 has failed them in an entirely casual format? It's not difficult just having normal social etiquette is normally enough. I don't even have a conversation about power level, if I feel my deck is accelerating at a faster pace then the table or a card is too powerful, I'll slow down or won't play it or ask the table if I can shuffle it back in and draw something else. If you're playing for casual fun just don't be a jerk, don't play cards you know everyone hates but mostly just try to care about other peoples fun besides your own.
Player 1: Hey, do you guys think I can play with some silver border cards? Player 2: Nah, I mean.. I just don't think that I'm up for that particular game, sorry. Rosewater: Wow, rule 0 is not practical. That silliness aside.. I do think people should walk back from numbers as far as power level just because it's so hard to really nail any of that down, even between precons sometimes with how varied some of those are in power level even within the same set release, but instead talk about deck types, interaction levels and combos or finishers.
Rule 0: This is something that needs to happen at your group. Like there was a sorta spoiler from MH3 that if accurate works well with Top, and I don't want to play against that so I told my friends. And if they don't like something in my deck I change it. If I were to go to a con I'd be looking for Pr-EDH or low low power EDH like...game ends turns 14-20. Very slow. The Rules Committe (RC): IDK I think they are in a tough spot but they are haphazard. They banned Hullbreacher (no effect locally) and Flash (no effect locally) but they won't touch DOckside Extortionist (breaking games here) or Thassa's Oracle (Oops I win games) and won't remove attractions when they are widely unwelcome over here. Same with stickers. I think the RC isn't useful at the moment. Just posting a "Things are great, lots of different decks enjoy the new set" every 3 months is...something. I mean why post an update if there aren't changes? And telling us you won't ban stuff and are equally reluctant to unban. Just..why have the RC? Just pass the Banned List to Wizards, let them do stuff with it and we'll move on.
if dockside is doing that well that means y'all aren't learning its meant to punish people for playing lots of low mana artifacts and token artifacts, so if someone is consistently playing a deck with it stop playing those kinds of decks. On another note the only people that play thoracle combo at a casual table have 0 place at a casual table and you as a community need to bully them into either playing something else or out of the group, by say never letting that person play. edh communities have to be self regulating you even give a good example of it for your own group. Also just cause hullbreacher wasn't doing anything to you doesn't mean it wasn't happening everywhere else. you need to remember that a lot of the ban list is signpost bans as in "we are banning x because the mechanic it represents isn't something we want in the format but we don't want to ban every single one of those cards'
Only issue and only once I’ve had with rule 0 is at my lgs we play winner gets a pack of the current set. Had a new guy to the lgs say I’m playing a 7 I just built so we all said fine went with 6/7’s then he killed us on turn 5. I told him not to say he’s playing a 7 if he’s playing a 9 or higher. His response was sorry I just wanted to win that pack. Like really dude you annoy everyone at the table by lying for a pack of cards.
I've been introduced to EDH back when the first EDH product was created back in 2011(god it's been that long huh) and I have throughout my years only encountered a rule 0 talk once, which was from a dude who asked if everyone was fine with not using tutors to win(whatever that even means) and then proceeds to have a CEDH turn 1 of producing 6+ mana, play their commander and set up draw engine(the irony was lost in this one) To be honest, I have difficulty wrapping my head around the notion of rule 0. On one hand I understand the need to say "we playing casual, no CEDH nonsense allowed" but then again, isn't it up to the players in the table to regulate someone who's clearly there to just curbstomp? Like if someone brings up a CEDH deck to a casual deck and everyone is fine with it, neat, it can even become a archenemy sort of game. If not, then kick the CEDH deck out. They know what they are doing, they didn't just copy paste a CEDH deck off a website for "fun casual time" So to me rather than function as a way to separate casual from CEDH, it seems more like an arbitrary "rule" that certain people bring up so that they can police others. Stuff like "no infinite combos" or "no wraths" are just ridiculous to me and are clearly just people who don't know how to build decks and have no desire to improve instead force everyone else to play down to their level. On the other hand if you use some weird card as your commander even though it can't be a legal commander, but everyone is ok with you using it since it's just for fun, then is that really Rule 0, or is it just people wanting to have a good time? Basically, there's no need for rule 0, because at the end of the day people just want to have a good time and they will allow outside the box nonsense to happen if it means more fun. So establishing a "rule 0" only results in certain people using it as policing tool against others so they can have "their" fun but no one else.
I think it's due to the fact they could be played in basically 'regular' formats rather than solely being an Un-set draft mechanic. I think they're fine in commander and have been pretty fun and make it so the deck struggles to play out the same way every time. The only mechanic as of late I found 'offensive' is Initiative because that mechanic basically FORCES players to engage in a mechanic they didn't build for or even want to participate in anyway. Stickers/Attractions don't force the rest of the table to actively engage with them/keep track of them, only the player using them.
This could have been avoided if they didn't make half of the set legal in ANY FORMAT. The fucking money grabbing is starting to gum-up the gameplay now.
There are plenty of cheap and affordable budget decks. And the only way you'd think rule zero is stupid while also complaining about a lack of money is if you've invested into one cancerous deck that nobody wants to play against.
@@Cybertech134 lol I'm not going to do that for a side format, you're going to play against my sick tivit deck or I'm going to play with someone who's less of a scrub
I dunno, his comments about how the RL keeps a very toxic element in the community that would otherwise move on to more economically exploitable pastures seemed pretty insightful to me. By and large, it’s been my experience since starting in April of 1996 that people who are deeply concerned with the monetary value of their cards tend to care about that to the exclusion of things like how healthy are the game’s various formats, how well is the hobby recruiting serious replacement hobbyists for those lost to natural attrition, etc. I can’t point to a single CCG with an extremely strong collector/investor element that isn’t having membership-retention issues due to extremely steep price-barriers to genuine entry. On that subject, MaRo seems pretty on point. Many RL collectors don’t even ever buy Sealed product or post-Mercadian Masques Singles, so I’m with the Professor, when he said, “Why should our hobby continue to pander to people who only have a selfish, even parasitic relationship with MtG?”
Mark’s comment about Un Cards sounds more like a “dad make brother play the game i want” excuse than it does any kind of statement about the reality of most Rule 0s or regular gaming pods. People dont want to play with Un cards in their regular commander games? Okay??? Then go find some people who do want to rather than complain until everyone gets forced to play with stickers?
Rule zero doesn't work at all. The RC might as well not exist, fiddling while Rome burns. Adding un-cards to commander wasn't an experiment, it was an attempt to push boxes on casual players that was rejected. Only competitive players used the majority of these legal un-cards and i've only seen 3 or 4 cards actually played.
The only rule 0 i hear is "i use proxies" and i really just say "thats fine, i have a lot of interaction - that good?"
My mpc proxies are so good no one notices 😊- nice to get a high power deck for $35
The main rule 0 I ask is if people mind me using my gold bordered cards as they are cheaper versions than the black border ones
So is Mark saying rule 0 doesn't work because generally people don't want to deal with annoying gimmick mechanics if given a choice?
Seem that way lmao.
Well he had at least a hand in the design and is supposedly a fan of the un-sets.
He was referring to using un-cards in commander. With unifinity having black bordered cards that conversation is skipped somewhat. The cards are legal, and outside the outliers are not broken. Like a Blanka deck running an Embiggen is not a rule 0 conversation because it is a legal card to run.
I think framing all rule zero conversations around cards that are not legal as annoying gimmicks highlights the issue. Commander players whine to god damn much, especially on the internet.
Few people complain that much in person.
@@ryanhefner2011 that's a rather hypocritical accusation, considering yours is whining about vague people.
One problem with rule 0 is that it happens right before playing a game, rather than before a deck is built. Unless the conversation is strictly about gameplay, it’s already too late to talk about what cards can or can’t be in decks. This is more true for players with fewer cards or a smaller budget, because obviously more long-time players can switch out cards or even switch out decks at a moment’s notice.
I must say the most fun I’ve had in EDH is playing on MTGO. The “rule 0 conversation” is just a description line from the host, and people either follow it or don’t. I will see OG duals and mana crypts at a “casual game” but just keep playing, because I just want to play the game. Since it is 4-player, it’s possible for anyone to win.
This is definitely true when playing with Randos, but I know in my personal play group the only Rule 0 conversations we've ever had were prior to deckbuilding. I have a buddy of mine that really wanted to play a dice rolling deck prior to Battle of Baldur's gate, so we opened the floodgates to all the illegal un-set dice rolling cards. After BBG came out, I think he's pretty much down to Krark's other thumb, which after BBG seems perfectly fine to me because of other cards that have the effect. Likewise, he wanted to play brothers Yamazaki and our group was more than willing to accommodate.
It's really not that difficult: What do you play? This precon. Then I will play a precon too.
@@the_devils_jesterThat is only possible if you own multiple decks. I know many people do, but that's not really a good expectation
@@laytonjr6601 I don't expect the newbie to have multiple decks, that's why I do.
A friend in my playgroup played a deck with two copies of Brothers Yamazaki as his "partner" commanders. We all thought it was a cool idea, and it was! That's the kind of thing rule 0 enables.
These kind of conversations go much better when you have an established playgroup. It's why it's important to build longer term Magic relationships if you can, with people who have the same goals that you do.
I love my dudes, we've been playing over webcam since the lockdowns of 2020.
gonna steal that brothers yamazaki idea thats sick *yoink*
My buddy did this as well, he wanted to build a "clone tribal" deck around them. It had some decent games, but for the theme he was going for he really needed blue, so I went into Magic Set Editor and made him a red and blue version of the brothers that has the "partner with" rule written on the cards themselves. He's all about interesting decks over competitive ones, so I trust him not to make something too broken with it.
"Rule 0" is asking the players to be game designers.
EDH IS rule 0. It's a 'kitchen table' format. Some guys got together and made up rules to play a chill game with cards they didn't get to use regularly.
The real problem is that EDH is the premier format. It's far easier to play standard/modern/legacy.. Wizards formats.. and make friends to play commander with. I can't imagine just walking into an LGS and trying to play EDH with 3 random people.. it'd be exhausting, not fun.
@@king.eternal5980 THIS. People dont get that EDH is made up by players, it was supposed to be some funny jank you do between tournament rounds of actual magic. Complaining its unbalanced is like complaining that a skyrim mod is unbalanced
The amount of commander games I have played that are funny jank games vs it's turn 4 I have 8 mana and I play 2 spells for free and you lose half your life rounded down. Is wild, you can call commander a kitchen table format if you want, you can say commander is all about funny jank, but that is invalidated the second someone at my table plays full control or sheoldred ECT ECT, the fact is that most commander games are about speed running, how to build an icbm out of cardboard... How does rule zero come into play in such a format then? Well the players of that exact game, are also the rules committee... Most people call that a conflict of interest and so the entire point of rule 0 is lost.
@@Duransurik you're playing different games.
Imagine you went to a game night. Board games and drinks. Chill and have fun. Then when you go there, risk was set up.. no one is having fun now. The person that wanted to play risk is watching you be miserable and you can't drink enough to make it fun. No one had this rule 0 talk.
You both went to have a good time though. Had the same expectations in your head.
Edit: maybe more to the point. If you're invited to a game night and were told the theme is 'whatever deck you want just throw 60 cards together'. One person brings jank from their old cards, one person brings affinity with 4 sol rings, another person brings a Precon deck from Onslaught. Literally the same problem as commander with randoms. Who would ever expect that to work?
The point is, commander isnt ABOUT fun jank. It's about playing a 4 player game. The pod decides what game they're putting on the table. For one of my pods, it's nostalgic cards we grew up with. For another it's about doing things we couldn't get away with in a standard format. For the other it's about doing something with our hands while we catch up and have a drink.
It's a fan format.
Players literally were the game designers.
Are you high?
For the most part my experience with rule zero is people being upfront that they want to play a CEDH deck, and wondering if anyone else has one. Otherwise people just sit down and play.
Now I do two- cEDH or high power. If I can tell it’s new players , my juiced up Precons from recent sets
That Mark Rosewater tweet pisses me off. That is showing the rule 0 working as intended, people don't want to play with un-set cards on a regular basis. By making some of them legal, you are empowering people to ignore the rule 0 conversation around them and forcing majority of players to play with this un-fun (no pun intended) anomaly in MTG.
My thought exactly lmao.
The irony is a handful of the un cards are fine. I think “saw in half” is a great little card that turns any creature into a wurmcoil engine. Some do get a little too crazy
@@LoneSkag I mentioned this on another video, but there are 41 cards from Unfinity that weren't part of the stickers/ attractions mechanic, & for the most part they're fine for typical play.
I made a guy mad because he had an attraction deck but I said I wouldn't play if it was running any acorn or silver border. I was accused of hating fun. I had to tell him to hat I just don't like throwing cards in the air and other ultra wacky crap that turns the game into a chaos fiesta, but it's insane to expect me to have to remember every single weird unset card that does things like that and then specifically list them off so I just blanket say no.
@@CameronsVideo Fair enough. If it were me I'd say "I don't care if it's black or silver if it doesn't have any wacky bullshit. It doesn't then go for it." I never played with attractions myself though.
The thing is Unstable was so well designed in my opinion that a lot of people wanted to play those cards in commander. Baron Von Count is super fun, Mary O'Kill is really bad, but I love the idea and really want her deck to work (unfortunately her ceiling is a 4 mana 5/5 with an ok protection ability). Unfinity had a lot of mechanics that were annoying, low impact, and not that fun.
Very good quotes, examples and explanations. Also good reminder to be consideerate and kind to the people around us. Subscription earned.
Thank you!
To respond to the two parts this is.
1. I have been playing commander for over a decade now. I can say over the hundreds to maybe over a thousand games I have played over that time period I have had the rule 0 talk about 1 - 2% percent of that. This conversation never really happens in my experience. People just sit down, pull out a deck and we see what happens. Sure, things get frustrating sometimes but that is just the game. Almost all of my rule 0 talks have been "We don't want to play against "x", or no infinites or ect..." or "The RC really got salty huh? So do you all care that I play "x" card?" Not a we are playing this today or not. The problem with rule 0 talk is the only ones really having it are the ones that just want to complain or secretly pub stomp people with an "um, technically" type of technicality to their own rule 0 complaints and refusals. The RC doesn't really matter in these talks.
2. The opinion or statements of the RC are and will remain entirely irrelevant to any conversation with the format until this becomes a real format with WotC.The ban list is subjective, the philosophy is not enforced equally. They don't really care about the health of the format because it is still an unofficial format and they can't actually police it if they did and tried. The ban list for commander should not exist because Rule 0 exists and it should be up to the individual pods/TOs to police the type of environment that their players are going to be subjected to. Especially in a proxy friendly format supported by WotC themselves.
I mean The pod saying "Hey we don't wanna play X" or someone saying "I don't wanna play with Y" are both equal examples of Rule 0 in place. Not really a difference between em. What's your statement of >The only ones really having it are the ones that want to complain ? Experience? If so that sucks, sorry you went to the table with toxic people. It doesn't invalidate the idea of having it, just some of the people implementing it. I also mostly have an "I don't care bring whatever" kind of attitude. But that's also an implicit Rule 0 conversation. "I'm fine with everything."
@@blindey tbf i hate rule 0. its just " i dont wanna answer it in the game so i ban it outside the game... while playing trash"
RC banlist is awful and hippcritical. Moxes are banned but solring and mana crypt are not, sol ring legal because they dont ban card for popularity but popularity of golos lead to ban. But they say it because golos too strong, then why not ban thoracle? Oh rule0 it? Why then you have banned golos? Too popular and too strong? Then why there is sol ring are legal? Etc.
@@erfarkrasnobay The joke of it all is the RC only bans cards they were made to feel salty with like a lot of the other cards that aren't RL and over 2k to buy.
Rule Zero is new and so is the Rules Committee- they have their own UA-cam channels like Command Zone and work with Gavin at Wotc to make their own version of EDH
All I want is Krark’s Other Thumb to be legal! There are already two other cards that do the exact same thing, why can’t I have my artifact too
I'm gonna share this video with my friend group and work on some rule 0 conversation with them. Thanks for your perspective on this!
cEDH is not an official WPN tournament format…yet.
Competitive monopoly makes more sense than cedh
@@pauliuskubilius9627 possible. yet awkward
Making cEDH into an official, sanctioned format would kill it.
@@deathsmbrace I don’t think so. I don’t want it to happen, but I can see it happening.
It won't happen most players absolutely hate it
I actually think that there's a greater problem than just stickers and attractions. I think its a community problem. Most players nowadays (from what I've seen) expect people to be well versed, knowledgeable and skilled. I'm not. I haven't really touched MTG since Lorwyn and I'm not sure if I'll ever get cards again.
My short story about Rule 0: I went to my LGS at a friends invitation and I was told that I can join. BUT I had to be the 4th wheel. When I showed up, I was handed a literal stock precon that wasn't even sleeved (everyone else had their decks sleeved). I wasn't given really any time to actually look at the deck, study it or even really make upgrades. The deck had only 5 or so ways to draw additional card. I spent pretty much the entire game praying for topdeck responses that I didn't know if I had. Players also ended up getting frustrated when I asked to see most of the cards being played since I didn't know what they did. And tack onto it, I was the weakest deck at the table and the target of all 3 other players. The only reason I wasn't the first to lose was because I hit a single big card that let me take a player out. Otherwise I was the whipping post for the next 2 hours.
Not only was I playing basically a stock precon (i knew of like 3 cards that could help me [Palantir, One Ring, Urza's Saga]) but everyone else at the table had a custom deck that they had had multiple occasions to practice and play with. Two of the players had at least 4 different decks available with them AT THE TABLE. No one offered me an alternate deck. Please note I'm not saying that I expected or even asked. I hoped that the rest of the table might have the thought that "hey maybe we shouldn't give the new player the objectively weakest deck at the table. Maybe we should give them a "nice" deck so that they can have fun. This was not the case. When I brought it up later that I basically had zero fun I was told that I was expected to just shut up, stop complaining and shuffle. They wanted me to be thankful that THEY allowed me to play with them. I literally lost a friend because I told him that he ruined my game AND night.
In my eyes "Rule 0" needs to be a mandatory conversation at any and all LGS'. Even if its a basic conversation "hey I want to run all enchantments and its pretty strong." or "I'm running Reaper King / Wandering Throne recursion where I'm gonna try to destroy all permanents" As you said, these conversations help everyone and by not having the convos (or refusing to have them) we limit and in some ways, gatekeep others from being able to enjoy/play/learn.
In my eyes, you don't hand a new player the weakest deck at the table expect them to play well and have fun when everyone else is objectively stronger. It doesn't hurt ANYONE to make sure that new players enjoy their first times and we should be actively encouraging kindness to new players.
I've been playing this game for about 3 decades now, and I mean this without a scrap of malice: EDH is not a format for new players. If you don't have the processes of the game down, and a decent understanding of how to read a board state, start elsewhere, for your own sake.
If you can't fluidly get through a game in a limited or 60-card constructed format against one player, you're going to have a hell of a time keeping up with a 4-player pod. It's not a format conducive to learning the game without first having your groundwork laid down.
That's not to say you should never touch the format, though. Quite to the contrary, actually... Once you have a handle on how to get through a game cleanly, it's an excellent place to explore card interactions and game states, but having to handhold a brand new, unstudied player through a game feels like a chore for a fair number of public pods, and it tends to slow an already long game down to an agonizing pace, especially as the turns tick forward, and the board gets complex.
Yea dude mtg players are lame, that's the law
Are you saying your deck had Palantir, One Ring, and Urza's Saga in it? None of those are precon cards.
@@stevenpoche6988 No sorry for the misunderstanding. Those were the only cards I knew that could go in a colorless deck
@@ScizonValeforn wait, you were playing what I can only assume was the Zhulodok precon, and you were having trouble still? That thing has a pretty high power floor, unturned, if you don't keep a bad opening hand...
Rule 0 can help with managing against toxic stuff, but I find it easier to allow cards to be added for a specific POD rather than asking your LGS or some random at a casual tourney to not play a legal card. Banning cards doesn't mean the rule 0 goes away, it just means we have fewer cards to go through and ask people to never play.
As someone who works at an LGS, Rule 0 just doesn't work a decent amount of the time. It is a constant struggle to manage the game experience for everyone and you can't force people to communicate, people just want to sit down and play a game not learn a whole form of etiquette and communication around deck construction just to play a game after their long day at work which leads to misunderstandings. Not to mention some players just outright lie or forget what cards are in their deck, some have 10s of commander decks and can't remember which deck has what and the store isn't going to ban them for that. On the flip side some players only have 1 or 2 decks so if their deck has something you don't like you are out of luck in a structured commander event where people are placed in pods randomly. Finally, less relating to the game itself but an LGS is also a business so anytime someone has a bad play experience and doesn't come back (sometimes not even to purchase products not just the commander events) because the format is so heavily crutched on Rule 0 and they struggle with effectively communicating or they wanted to play something but can't find the right players or they just had a rough day exacerbated by an ineffective Rule 0 then the LGS is losing business which further complicates the whole problem.
Asking a player if they want to play isn't a rule 0 conversation.
If someone asks to change the assumed rules, that is Rule 0.
@@thetimebinder Yeah, but he briefly mentioned that any before-game conversation was rule 0.
The specific examples he gave were creature center pods and lower power games both of which are rules zero conversations
I think Wizards should just release a general guideline for power levels of edh decks so people have a general idea where to rank them, because from my experience people can never see eye to eye when talking about the power level of their decks.
nah cuz theres always the one guy saying its a 7 then it consistently turn 2 wins. like nowhere is that a 7 lol
people just need to be honest. if u want to play competitive say that dont bring that to a precon table and say itll be fair
Wizards loves to play dumb like they can't do stuff because "rules" but then blatantly break their own rules when convientent.
Prime example is the 30th anniversary release. Where the absolutely broke their own reserved list rules.
YEP. What an absolute dumpster fire when that product could have been the EASIEST slam dunk this company has EVER made.
The only real "Rule 0" my group has is the "House Rule" where if you're playing Mr. House as your commander, if you use 4 treasures and his ability to roll 5 dice and you hit Yahtzee, you win the game. Hasn't happened yet but when it does the House player exits stage left and the other players continues for 2nd place.
1. Invite people to sit with you 2. Ask “Cedh? “. 3. Play Edh or Cedh with your new friends . Let Bryan try your dragon deck next game - he’s new and only has a Precon
Being 100% honest and truthful... none of the examples you gave have ever come in up in my lgs edh group. We have a paper with a point system similar to commander vs and thats it. Some people have precons and some have cedh decks and anywhere in between, but we never have conversations about decks. We sit down, reveal commanders and play but never have rule 0 talks
Is the points system talked about beforehand?
In all my years of playing commander I've only ever had a rule 0 conversation once and it was about a month ago when we got a new player joining up. He brought up if we restricted anything or not and we just said no. Every other time I've played EDH the way we responded to over tuned decks was just to slot in something we know counters said deck or strategy and just go at it win or lose.
Hell I still remember this one dude who would always try to play decks that were top of the pack and he'd end up just painting a target on his back as everyone shut down his strats so we could continue playing normally. It was just one of the things you had to deal with when playing at an LGS.
With how difficult it is to rule 0 with people, my lgs included a rule in their "casual" commander tournaments. For context, they have tournament rules to prevent cEDH decks from taking over the night for the casual players by punishing certain actions like mass land destruction, too many extra turns, or winning in the first few turns of the game. But they also use a point system to determing the winner rather than purely winning matches, and each month they change 4 or 5 bonus point "side quests" that players can try to earn throughout the tournament (3 rounds) and usually are related to the set that is currently releasing. For example the current points for OTJ include casting a few spree spells for every mode, having a few mounts in play at once, having a full 'party' of outlaws, etc.
Every december, they add the rule that acorn cards are legal, with a few banned exceptions, so people who want to play with those cards or even build decks around some of them are able to play them every friday and saturday in december without needing to worry about the whole rule 0 conversation getting shut down
It's just MUCH MUCH easier to ask someone to not play a certain normally legal card than it is to ask to use banned cards or non-legal commanders as a commander.
EDH bans aren't even really bans, they're more of suggestions anyways. Even if they ban stickers/attractions, you can always rule 0 to ask if anyone cares that you use them in your deck.
Yes, but the very point is that having to ask to use banned cards is annoying.
Maybe don't make silver border cards playable in constructed formats... Like it's not enough to have Optimus Prime and Dogmeat in our games...
I would say that i disagree with the framing that players not giving the greenlight to play with silver bordered cards is rule 0 not working. For what it's worth, I feel like the blame for the phrasing lies on Mark Rosewater for framing that way, because the reality is that rule 0 simply means that as a casual format that doesn't (for the most part) exist in sanctioned, tournament play, players can adjust the rules as necessary to have a better time. I also feel the need to point out that a pre-game discussion (discussing decks, power levels, etc) and rule 0 are two different topics, although rule 0 is generally a pregame thing so we'll put that aside for another day
Anyways, with regards to the framing that players being told by everyone else that no, they can't play with their Un-set cards is rule 0 not working, it is a frustratingly selfish view to have. To think that a majority of players coming together to deny someone permission to do something that they need permission to do in the first place is a failure is to say that the lone minority should rule and force everyone to bow down, which is what WoTC did with UB and Unfinity. It was blatantly a profoundly selfish act when Unfinity came out, and it remains so today. I can only hope that Hasbro was at least as complicit as Marky Mark when it came to making this shit black bordered, and I hope its a mistake we don't see repeated in the future
"But mah funnie joke clown cards gotta be played too..." 😂😂
No, the profoundly selfish act is a sizeable chunk of the playerbase going "because I personally don't like the thing, no one should get it" and then devolving into screeching about "real Magic" and refusing to listen to anything outside of their echo chamber. I've been around since _Invasion_ block, I've seen plenty of cards and sets that I didn't like, but I've never said that any cards/sets/formats that I don't like should be removed just because they hurt my widdle fee-fees, and the entitled people who are making that argument now are the reason that I just cannot enjoy TCGs right now
@@nicholasfarrell5981 If you wanna play whatever you want without having to show the table some basic decency, then go play cEDH. That's literally made for people like you.
@@Cybertech134 and if you want to control what everyone else plays, make your own game and stop polluting this one. And take the rest of the butthurt gatekeepers with you, they won't be missed.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 The issue is that commander is a very popular casual format and as a casual format, it needs at least some gatekeeping. Without it, its like playing multiplayer games with no matchmaker. Great only for those that want to pubstomp noobs. And I get it, max level pvp characters camping low level areas is a very common trope for that reason. The issue is the players that expressly do not want fair pvp, they instead want to get into the most lopsided matches possible because it is how they have their fun. The issue is that the solution to this is a social one and not a mechanical one.
Un-set should have never been made for anything but an un-set. Rule Zero is fine if people use it to just feel out what people want to do. I've never had a problem with my play groups when Rule Zero came up because I've had some just TERRIBLE games when someone brings an abysmal deck or just wants to durdle/waste time. That's fine for them but I should be allowed to know what type of game I'm about to get into especially with commander casual games going for 30-60+ minutes.
Explicit description of Rule 0 on the rules might be needed if nobody knows what that is lol.
My group has its own ban list. We can use silver border cards, proxies at will and even custom cards if the group vote its balanced enough.
We ban most cards with random effects, any 2 cards infinite combo, stickers, atractions, dungeons and anything with dice. Universes beyond are mostly banned from our regular plays as well, unless they fit the fantasy vibe, like D&D or LotR. But we love playing ONLY Warhammer or only Who.
We sometimes ban planeswalkers, sometimes we allow it, depends on the week. We even allow any planeswalker as commander ocasionally.
Most of the time we dont allow legendary creatures among the 99. Bit we are always changing that back and forth.
I started playing 7 years ago, I had a very low budget and the group that I played didn't, so I started to play combo to have a chance against my group, that started a snowball where every game being a race of who can win first and we stop having fun, which lead me to stop playing MTG. 7 months ago me and a few friends had to urge to play MTG again BC we love it, and me made a bunch of rule 0 statements which we all agree and collaborated, to be fair to everyone, so we only build decks having in consideration that set of "house rules", so we already know what to expect, and also, when someone uses a deck that maybe its too much or unpleasant for the table we always communicate, and explain why that deck isn't fun for everybody, and until now, we didn't have a problem or anyone getting mad to dissolve a deck because its too much, we also are considering building a " no rule deck" for when we play with randoms that have high power decks, since we had a group of 4 and now we have a group of 3.
It's way easier to deal with rule 0 if you always play with the same group. I only play once each 15 days (because of where I leave), and most of the time I'm playing 1v1 w my cousin that it's my neighbor and also from my commander group. So when I play with randoms, I actually don't bother since i play already too little, so i don't wanna spend time talking, just playing, but we always say "we play with low PL, just to have fun".
To be fair, I live in Brazil, I've NEVER seen a rule 0 conversation happening, and since I live in a state where only have 2 store, everyone knows everyone and knows the types of decks that everyone play, and PROBABLY play according, I can't tell because we just started playing without ppl from the group.
My recommendation is, find a group that shares the same concepts of fun, or at least whats NOT fun, and you'll be happy.
If someone is curious, the rules that we have are:
1 no cards that have " win the game" in it.
2 no 2 card combo (but usually we do with 4 or more cards because we like combos w more setup)
3 it's better if a deck win in later turns, for example turn 8, if a deck wins too earlier its always a bad experience for us.
4 some archetypes are banned, like land destruction and stax (UNLESS the deck will not suffer the consequences and have a huge advantage, but decks that makes the game slow or make opponents not play the game are prohibited, I argue to remind that we play once every 2 weeks, for about 5 hours, so we don't matches to take more than one hour each)
5 and for last just build what you really want to play, the idea is to have fun, no problem to use a tier 0 deck, just make sure to make something of your own and that you actually like, for example a friend have a Magda deck, that its all about dwarves and vehicles, so it's not a competitive deck, but with a competitive commander.
I feel like there needs to be some official statement on Rule 0 from both WotC & the Commander Rules Committee. Not necessarily to dictate what a Rule 0 is, but to encourage the conversation & give examples of how to communicate things. In the end, a lot of MtG players are awkward nerds that don't have very good communication abilities & this game has become how we socialize. Rule 0 isn't easy to have, especially when ppl are just trying to fit in to a new environment.
I started the game with Ice Age in 1995, and I’ve played EDH off and on since 2007. I wanted to welcome all the new players - wherever Magic is at now - it will change . Welcome to the Ur-Dragon Dockside era 😊🎉
Hey yo I see that Hit Box in the background!! What you playing?
Slowly getting back into SF6 bc of the S2 Bison rumors and GG strive!
Commander is a “for fun” format, but WOTC is releasing competitive cards for EDH.
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So that means the format should be treated like a competitive format.
Split the format like they did with legacy/modern.
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Have the CEDH players in their own competitive world. And have the casual players in their own “for fun/casual” format.
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However Commander is a Ponzi scheme, and WOTC is keeping the investors happy by keeping the secondary market over inflated.
Watch how fast prices would drop if people didn’t feel the need to constantly buy reserve list cards.
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I would take a gander that the modern format would be the more popular than the legacy format- just like modern is more popular than legacy. Which would then tank prices, because no one wants to sit across from someone with a $900 Gaias cradle they bought for $30 25 years ago- and the card will never be reprinted.
This will cut down a lot of “rule 0” and proxy BS.
Ngl you formatted this comment weird but it was pleasing to the eye to read. Nice.
My Toski Squirrel deck gets very silly when i use Earl of Squirrel as a commander (we rule 0 it as a legend, including for clone effects)
Rule 0 is silly and only exists because commander isn't a format, it is a ritual. It's a game that requires social norms against the tenants of optimised play. CEDH is in a place where it works at the top because everyone is playing the game to win. But commander actively punishes interaction, trying to win early, or playing specific colours, through rule 0 and game play. This means the format isn't open, everyone is playing a ramp or combo deck to pop off and sneak out a win because people rarely interact.
I like commander because I like having combo kills as a win-con, but if you're gonna punish someone else for their win-con by using rule 0 like a game of make believe then don't play. If you went to a FNM standard event looking to play your Temur Ramp deck and looked the Boros Tokens player in the face and refused to play against that deck despite being bracketed to, the whole room would be like "WTF are you here if you don't even like the format?" Asking the one player with an aggro deck at the table to play a completely different deck is just a wild and entitled take that allows people to get away with building interaction deprived decks. It turns the format into a race to draw the golden snitch and not Magic.
Rule 0 is going to continue to exist, until we have a tool of some sort to power scale decks or we get a format split into true commander type II. It DOES have a place in the format but, should be done prior to sitting down. It needs to be done like a session 0 in TTRPGs, you text someone saying "Precons only for tomorrow. Is that all good?" or "Lets all play 5 colour decks next week and see who's the Colour Pie GOD." If you're bringing up rule 0 at the table as people are getting their decks out, that's not rule 0. That's an ultimatum, it gives "you're already here so you don't have the power to disagree anymore since you're already committed."
In short Rule 0 is not an excuse for bad deck building, childish behaviour, or lack of communication skills.
These UA-cam channels often advise players to pratice "open communication" not acknowledging many MTG players are introverted, socially anxious or have other similar issues. If they make clear rules there wouldn't have to be a rule 0 like cEDH or other MTG formats.
EDH is a social format, so you can't get around at least some communication. You don't have to have a 2 hour session to talk about rules, a quick "My deck is strong but not optimised, how about you" is often sufficient. The Rule 0 conversation for me often is "what are you playing" "commander X, roughly Powerlevel 6-7" "Then I would play my slivers, if that's ok with you" "yeah, sure" "Ok, my commander is The first Sliver"
yeah that sounds good but that doesn’t happen everytime. there will be cases where a player misrepresents their decks and now these players who aren’t so good are communicating are either stuck feeling salty or just avoid playing altogether.
Attractions are one of the most inspired mechanics ever. If they had different themimg people would understand.
Learn from Strixhaven gave you sorceries.
Open an Attraction gave you special permanents.
They are absolutely fantastic. And whether or not you agree with the theming being fun or bad. Mechanically they are super fun and awesome to play.
I think contraptions were much better and could fit into typical magic games much better. Attractions were tied to a lot of baggage and add a lot of time for each turn. They can be fun, but don't fit nicely in a typical magic game, thus perfect for a silver border. Maybe with a lot of reworking, they could work, but we already have stuff like dungeons, the ring tempts you, and even the aforementioned contraptions could be reworked more easily.
@@kwagmeijer26 As an attraction enjoyer myself, my turns are consistently 2-3 minutes long, while people I normally play against are 5+. Im not slowing down the game anymore than the person running Bolas Scam is.
@dragonqueenniisan4122 i agree with this. Most of the time, I roll one dice and maybe get 1 or 2 triggers.
Yes, if you roll a six with a big board, they can go nuts. But def not worse than flicker/ storm decks or really any big combo like deck. :/
Hell, I'd argue turns in standard right now are longer than 3 turns of my attraction deck.
@@Somethingsomethingyoutube exactly. The problem isn't the mechanic, it's the people who want the game to be stagnant so they can gatekeep.
@@kwagmeijer26 I love cards like Hangman which adds a really fun minigame to the table. Yet other people hate it. But to me, this is no different a conversation than play patterns of other cards regardless of whether they are silver border or not.
I have to agree with the Mark on this one. Outside of your playgroup, such as at your LGS with strangers you have to let go of your own expectations. You can’t force people who don’t like or play UN-cards, silver border, or stickers to play against you while you get to have them. It’s not just that it breaks the game for some folks, it’s also that it doesn’t feel like MTG for me. It’s super goofy to have one person playing Phyrexians and another playing a Clown car. There are some UN-cards that can absolutely fit into MTG proper, however, UN-cards and stickers need to remain non-commander legal outside your personal group. I just go to the store expecting standard commander rules, and an open mind.
great discussion. I feel like your point re players insisting *they* dont have Rule 0 is really poignant.
If that conversation doesnt happen *before* the game, itll definitely happen after. Whether thats people using all combos expecting to play solitaire, or people getting upset about kibitzing or even refusing to politic and simply playing to current board state. Some people will do obvious proxies, some people will do good counterfeits, and some people will start a poker escalation to simply outbid their opponents monetarily for an advantage. Are we trying to knock out a few games in an evening and dont super care who wins, or is every game one where people are expected to put their pride on the line.
Like, that stuff is GOING to come up in and after the game if it doesnt come up before hand.
I do think its frustrating that upon hearing that the opponents of people who complained wouldnt let the complainers use unfair, unfun and often exceedingly annoying negative play experience cards, the solution was to simply take that side and make everything legal. For example, I like a lot the D&D set rolling d20s and the Heads I Win deck, and those cards feel fun to me. But they're balanced, theyre black border and they dont have all the Gotcha type affects that just make old Unsets actually pretty miserable for everyone at the table except the troll.
Printing Unsets in black border was a mistake, both mechanically and frankly visually too
Rule 0 conversations are extremely important in order to avoid people saying stupid shit like "it's legal so I should be able to do it", especially since the official ban list isn't updated regularly enough to be an effective balancing tool. Also just because WotC releases a card doesn't mean I have to welcome it at my table. They're a company that's about making money, not balancing the game for fun.
I think players should also be prepared for a pod at an lgs to shut them down and stuff like this. I've put random unset cards into a few of my commander decks not because they are very powerful, but just because they are funny and create weird interactions. But also, I have essentially side board cards for those decks. If I show up to an lgs and the pod I'm playing in says no to the unset cards I like to run, I'll just swap them out for basics or other stuff. Or play a different deck all together. When I go to my lgs, I bring anywhere between 5-15 different decks with me, all different power levels and all trying to do different things. I'm also fully willing to lend my deck out to a new player at the table or even someone who just wants to try something different. I think it's up to every player at the table to make sure that every player can sit down and have a good time, and some of that starts before you even get to the table.
In my opinion it’s not mark rosewaters or Magic’s responsibility to make sure people who play there game have friends/a full understanding of how to play the game they can use resources to inform players or make events for people to gather but the worst thing that can happen to magic is if the designers start making decisions on the game based on a a couple player not being able to find good play groups
When did rule zero start and who made it ? I played Edh 2007-2016 and 2022-present . Back in 2016 there was no ‘rule zero’
Sorry Mark, but people saying, "You can't play with Unfinity here." is Rule Zero working, not failing.
I think rule 0 is for playgroups and well before people start pulling their decks out for the night. If you want to do a weird broken thing give people some notice so they can adjust the decks they put into their bag for the night. I don't like the implicit emotional extortion in a rule 0 conversation of agreeable people to a pubstomping experience.
You don't have all your decks in the same luggage tote? If I'm playing magic it's with all 60 decks next to me
@@yuyu63 Typically I go out with 4 decks that are speaking to me that day, or whatever was left in my commander bug out bag from last week.
MaRo " Rule 0 doesn't work."
*proceeds to describe Rule 0 working*
cEDH proves that rule 0 works. The pre-game conversation is "hey everyone wanna play cEDH? No holds barred, use every card that's legal to get a win."
Isn't that just competitive formats ? cEDH is not unique, it's just a bastardized subformat.
@@cowsticker9618 Yes, but the point is that non-cEDH Commander ISN'T a competitive format yet sweatlords keep trying to treat it as such.
Honestly i feel like we should just make seperate edh formats with seperate banlists.
There should never be a Rule 0 in competitive formats. Rule 0 exist only in a casual format. The only rule zero we use in our pod is on mulligans. You don't have to discard if you mulligan, however if it seems like you're stacking your hand we will call you out on it.
The problem is: I don't want those cards in EDH either, but also i don't want to be the guy who tells others they can't use their deck because WotC sold them stuff that isn't fun to have at your table.
Now about Rule 0. It really works quite well in my experience. Most people have more than 1 deck, you build tables with similar power and know who to focus and who to be nice to.
I don’t particularly like proxies even in a casual setting, (unless it’s someone I know and who I know their deckbuilding won’t include unreasonably powerful cards for the setting) and as a result, I’ve made multiple people extremely upset with me for trying to adhere to my own Rule 0. Or, I’ll try to play, but every pod has someone with proxies, which means I’m forced to break my standards for fun in order to play the game. I just don’t bother playing outside of my specific friends anymore.
Ive played Edh for over 12 years. I get that not everyone loves proxies as much as me - and my tournament decks don’t have proxies . I try to meet people and play enough games with them to see where they are at on their Magic journey. It’s sad people got upset with you
I played in a commander pod playoffs where to get there players had played "casual pods". I ended up in the playoffs where the winner of the pod won a mana crypt. I brought an admittedly powerful deck because the goal of the playoff is to win. One of the players tried to "Rule 0" out powerful combo decks because "infinites are not casual" "counterspells are not casual" ect. That kind of mentality (and honestly him in general) killed commander at that LGS.
I'm sorry, but everyone demanding a Rule 0 for balance in Commander is ridiculous. Specifically, in casual EDH games. It's like demanding a conversation prior to a Modern game - sometimes some decks are going to be outclassed by others inherently. That's okay. Maybe there are some strategies you can employ to gain an advantage in circumstances like that.
Same thing for Commander. Before anyone says, "but what about people who purposefully bring cEDH level decks to my table" - yes, in that case, and that case alone, Rule 0 can work. However, if it's just at your kitchen table or with your buddies? I'm sorry, but I'm not catering my decks to adhere to every permutation to any preference people have to what they want to see in a game. "No removal", "No board wipes," "No this or that'", "Only power level 7s" - All of these restrictions get to a point where building decks is impossible all because someone gets a little annoyed over a counterspell or a piece of interaction. At what point to we recognize that people just need to deal with the mechanics of the game instead of complaining?
I actually run a few decks that use un and playtest cards, BUT I run each such card by my playgroup and explain what I use it for and ask if players are cool with it before we play. "Are you okay with me running Bone Rattler or Blast from the Past?" Now... if you bring a bunch of un-cards that disrupt the rules of the established game? No. I sit down to play a game with rules I know, and making cards that deliberately disrupt how the game is played as a whole would get obnoxious... see "Queue of Beetles". I'm fine with "Cheese Stands Alone" but not *Half-mana*.
Really makes you wonder if R&D hasld any idea of what would happen with the choices they made in Unfinity. Like, how far did they think ahead, if at all? Cause they can't POSSIBLY be THIS stupid. Unless they are. Which would explain a great deal, sadly.
If it’s terrible for Commander - people won’t play it “. That’s Wotc attitude imo. Example- they reprinted Ravages of War which is obviously horrible for Edh- but luckily - most people don’t play it . Their strategy works sometimes . At my LGS no one plays attractions ( anymore ). PS I hate sticker cards
Totally agree that people refusing to play with these cards is EXACTLY rule zero working.
Some things around rule zero you said I don't really agree with: sure, it should be the part of a social/recreational Commander game. Good to have it, explicit or implicit, since the end goal is basically social activity. However I don't think it really helps to say that there is an implicit "rule zero" conversation around e.g. playing modern or playing cEDH - playing a competitive game you agree first and foremost to compete and play, preferably to the best of your ability, within the framework of rules given. Which means in case of cEDH that it can and sometimes should go against "having fun for everyone" (which is and 100% should be the goal of non-competitive EDH). Rule zero is there to support the latter.
A rule 0 conversation keeps things fun for everyone who WANTS to be involved in that specific game. I dont care what Mark has to say about it. It wont stop rule 0 convos
The thing that bothers me about this is that people account for the complaints on Twitter and the like because they are there visually. But then don’t seem to account for all the people that don’t care or even enjoy the things that are being complained about. The % is likely a lot higher that people simply don’t care / mind or even like UN cards in Commander in reality but because they aren’t vocal about it online it can go unnoticed.
Commander is magics most popular and most casual format and the more rules and restrictions we put on it outside of what it already has.. the more limits we are imposing. The more creativity and random deck builds we are dampening.
Rule zero completely deals with any issues of Un cards. If people don’t want to deal with that level of randomness then fair enough. But let’s not try and remove it altogether.
I think Un cards should defo continue to be Commander legal moving forward. Where else can you play them otherwise and what’s the point of a product you can’t play? (Sure you can draft but that’s limited compared to Commander)
Embrace the limitlessness of Commander and deal with any limits that you feel you need in rule zero convos. Simple.
And if the idea that rule zero is just saying no to UN cards all the time then find other players. Sorry to you if your friends won’t even give it a try. Thats a shame. But many players out there won’t mind or will even have decks themselves also.
A lot of people don’t mess about with UN cards because they are banned (the old ones) so making sure that UN is Commander legal moving forward will help adjust the mindset and more people will prob try it.
I think you're missing the point. Now I can't speak for maro, but my reading wasn't that he thought rule 0 doesn't work for Stickers and Attractions, but for real un-cards. The ones that aren't legal. He's using it as an example that the rule 0 conversation exists around the framework of legality.
Talking about power level, or combos, or land destruction, and broad concepts we can discuss. but if you say you're running banned cards, or silver borders, it doesn't set expectations. And so maro responding by saying that having cards in a separate category, and then asking players to decide if they should be allowed, actually puts those cards on a soft-ban list, because its a level of rule 0 that isn't, as he said, practical. To accurately convey what my un-deck does I need to show you half of it.
Okay, I went on a bit longer than intended, and I do agree with most points you're making. i don't think you even denied anything I'm saying, just seemed like it wasn't the message you got from the post, and so it didn't make the discussion.
Would it be easier to just make the vase assumption cedh is the norm unless stated otherwise
No, because most commander players at most tables don't want to play cedh.
good argument, however, conter point,
EDH is for fun
cEDH is to win cashprize.
If you come to MY TABLE, with a mf power infinity deck we're not going to be friend, mainly cuz i don't have any deck that punish you and i know it, so MY rule 0 is simple "does your deck cost a 100 buck ? yes ? why ? ho it's a old precon ? that's fine. Ho it's because it's top 10 on the fucking CEDH meta ? well change deck or don't play."
I honestly feel we need to have a rules committee writing down hard rules for Commander, Rule 0 has just gone too far. My shop has the issue of never bringing higher power decks, except for the guys who've been going to that shop since like 2001 because they got in when cards like Chrome Mox, Mental Misstep, Artifact Lands, even Mox Diamond were new and a LOT cheaper. The one group hates anything resembling real games of Magic the Gathering, meaning no good mana rocks, no infinites, no counterspells that cost less than 4 mana or have an alternative cost, no good mana rocks (Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox as mentioned above, Hell, they even say no LOTUS PETAL, a one use effect), only allowed ways to remove a SINGLE creature are board wipes that DESTROY all creatures and do nothing else (meaning cards that are word for word and equal CMC to Wrath of God and Damnation, so nothing like Anger of the Gods or Blasphemous Act), you can't be able to win before it's been like 10 table rotations (Meaning your deck needs to be slower than WOTC is to ban the other 4 Elementals, Force of Negation, any free spells in Modern), and they want everything to be SORCERY SPEED! This is just one anecdote to this conversation, there's my 2 cents
What you described aren't "real games of MTG". Being a sweatlord isn't how a casual format is supposed to be enjoyed.
Let's be real, the biggest issue with Commander is the players. I try to have a Rule 0 at the LGS and there's always some party pooper at the table; they don't want to discuss anything. They don't want to give away any information about their cards. They don't even want to READ their cards. "Rule 0 conversation" nothing, this is all about some players being bad to play with for one reason or another.
Rule 0 works fine if the conversation can be contained within people's tolerances for the conversation. Time is the biggest annoyance, and people view in depth conversations as a time suck. My general rule is keep each person's contribution to the conversation under 10 seconds and if you need more than that, you'll need to find another group.
"Hey we wanna play precon-level decks (or other deck type), you got something about around there?"
"Yeah"
"Cool! Let's play"
That is a workable rule 0 conversation. If each person has to describe their deck and takes 30 seconds to do so, that's too long for most tastes since time is generally pretty limited and EDH already has a bad tendency to take too long.
You say that rule 0 is working because it's keeping stickers and attractions and "mistakes" out of commander. But the whole freaking point of commander is that it's an eternal format, play with everything! Just because you, or others, think stickers were a mistake doesn't mean you get to stop others from playing them. But, that is exactly what you got done saying in this video. Mark Rosewater considers many of his experiments "mistakes" but they are still valide legal cards. Hell he considers Hornet Sting a mistake, but are you going to stop people from playing Hornet Sting?
The problem with rule 0 as it stands is that it makes an open environment, like a open table day at an LGS a gate kept experience when a majority of players can just say they don't like "this thing" and suddenly no one can play it. It's arbitrary. If you want a currated experience, don't play in an open venue. If you want a curated experience, create it with your friends and quit telling randos they can't play their stickers and other un-set silliness.
if a pod you're looking to join doesn't want to play with the cards or playstyle of a deck you have
either change decks
or find a different pod
the attraction people can find their buddies that like that
the UB people can find their buddies that like that
the people who want "pure magic" can find their buddies like that
the people who want to play cedh can find a group like that
the people who don't care and just want to jam a game can find a group too
I'm curious as to what a set that is legal in Commander, but not Legacy, would look like? Even if WotC changes the rules to make this a thing, do you think they make money on it? I'm picturing "Commander Horizons" where there are massively broken must-have cards, and this is in comparison to the cards already legal in Commander. Trying to get cards into Commander while bypassing legacy sounds like a way of doing more harm than good.
When it comes to rule 0 if it isn’t legal for tournament play I’m not okay with it. This includes large or thick stock cards as commanders too.
As a combo player, I play cEDH only so I don't have to deal with people complaining. Rule zero experience that made me take this decision "we don't play broken stuff like fish or rhystic here"
I tone my deck down a little and sit down. Same guy played a turn 1 Esper Sentinel.
I agree on Unfinity. A game with many highs and lows is better than a game that always plays it safe. I am glad they took a swing and missed with Attractions and Stickers, because it's through our mistakes that we learn.
They didn't really miss, though. People just got their feelings hurt that fun was happening.
I completely agree, but I think they need to own up to their mistake and ban those cards for commander too. Most groups would allow them anyways if you ask, but it would reduce the play they see significantly since people would only include them if they really want to.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 If feelings were getting hurt then fun wasn't actually happening, 5head
And yet, fucking DUNGEONS exist which I don't consider to be very fun. Yet, I DO find attractions/stickers fun XD
The only rule zero in my private play group is to not cast farewell in a means to extend the game with no wincon next turn. In other words, if the game needs to end and you can't end it, don't board wipe.
How long has your play group been playing the game ?
Commander is straight up ruining Magic. You are correct when you sit down to play modern/standard or any other 60 card format there is no need for a “rule 0” you sit down and try to win and have fun. It’s easy. Both players know (to some extent) what they are getting into to. Commander you have NO CLUE if you’re playing against randoms.
Commander is all over the place. My “level 6” deck could be a “level 10” for you. The “rule 0” is so silly since when you play with random people it’s just that. Random. With buddies it’s different, but no one is complaining about “rule 0” who only plays with their buddies.
Its almost like EDH was not meant to be played with randoms and instead as a fun pasttime between tournament rounds with the boys. Almost like the format is not the problem, but the people xD
Almost like the goal of every game isn't to "try to win" like a sweatlord and sometimes it actually is about cultivating fun. It's a good thing people like you aren't in game design.
Asked for rule 0 on speltable .
Got the answer from 3 players "why rule 0 thats only if you want to play un cards an stuff".
This is the problem with opinionated people, they think they're more clever than they actually are. We could have a discussion about rule 0 if the community would like, BUT in the end it is about CONSENT. And in my experience, not doing rule 0 ends up in salt and segregation.
in my opinion, this video should had been titled "Rule 0 and Unfinity and BEYOND!!!"
Attractions were doomed to begin with, as once they're "gone" your deck doesn't do anything anymore and it's not like there's over one hundred different named attraction cards.
Of all the "Unfinity" cards, there are a handful that are actually good without stickers, unlike ____ Goblin. Stickers should be banned, but the cards that would use those stickers should be part of the game. Voyage of the ____ for example, you don't need nor care about putting a sticker on it. However, it's effectively another "Worldgorger Dragon" combo piece. Regardless of the existence of a sticker.
Every time Rule 0 come up I am convinced people having the conversation don't actually play the game.
Go to an LGS, say you're playing a deck and its gameplan in a sentence, and try to match up based on vibes. If it doesn't work perfectly, shuffle up and adjust.
You people are crazy 🤣
For me rule 0 in theory is a great idea but in practice is so hard to execute on. I can take last week where I joined a pod we were going good and every said “hey I’m gonna move to a high power deck” and I mistook that as oh they are moving to cEDH and I said can I play my cEDH deck. They didn’t hear me and said yea sure and so when I got to turn 3 they all scooped and I felt bad about the experience. Rule 0 can’t be helped in that circumstance and no one is really at fault in that situation besides maybe saying “oh you all should of clarified a bit more” well sure but we also wanted to get to another game.
Great video. I hope to have this level of polish one day.
A playgroup Rule 0'ing Un cards silver bordered like they should have been. Only game designers pressured from Hasbro to push sales of Unfinity affected.
Rule 0 is great, it should never be an argument or even considered like a real thing when discussing the format. Rule 0 should stay in the friend group because you can never assume people will follow rule 0
RELAX!
Yes, MaRo probably hasn't played a lot of Commander Games with normal casual players. (He stated multiple times, Commander is not "his thing" (that the head designer doesn't play their biggest format is surly another topic))
But he is right that rule 0 (besides the power level pregame talk (which for me is not necessarily rule 0)) can be tricky when it comes to "hey, I want to play those banned cards"
Even if it is really just a harmless silverborder nonsense deck, their are a lot of people who "mask" their broken power fantasys.
I understand why many players are hesitant to make bigger allowances/changes with rule 0.
Also it is always a bummer when there is a "no, you can't play that" at a table (unbanning cards of the list or vice versa banning more stuff than is on the list).
That's why most people like to stick to the "normal" rules.
That's why I think you over exaggerate MaRos Comment.
It's always funny when people get mad at my Angel & Demon tribal deck cause it plays Mana Crypt, Field of the Dead, Demonic Tutor, and Smothering Tithe (no infinites, minor stax, and the only mana sink is Pestilence Demon). If someone complains my deck is too good because I play too much fast mana and generic tutors I swap to my $150 Haldan Pako deck which is higher power (obviously if the rest of the pod is cool with it)
Who are all these people that feel rule 0 has failed them in an entirely casual format? It's not difficult just having normal social etiquette is normally enough. I don't even have a conversation about power level, if I feel my deck is accelerating at a faster pace then the table or a card is too powerful, I'll slow down or won't play it or ask the table if I can shuffle it back in and draw something else.
If you're playing for casual fun just don't be a jerk, don't play cards you know everyone hates but mostly just try to care about other peoples fun besides your own.
Player 1: Hey, do you guys think I can play with some silver border cards?
Player 2: Nah, I mean.. I just don't think that I'm up for that particular game, sorry.
Rosewater: Wow, rule 0 is not practical.
That silliness aside.. I do think people should walk back from numbers as far as power level just because it's so hard to really nail any of that down, even between precons sometimes with how varied some of those are in power level even within the same set release, but instead talk about deck types, interaction levels and combos or finishers.
Rule 0:
This is something that needs to happen at your group. Like there was a sorta spoiler from MH3 that if accurate works well with Top, and I don't want to play against that so I told my friends. And if they don't like something in my deck I change it.
If I were to go to a con I'd be looking for Pr-EDH or low low power EDH like...game ends turns 14-20. Very slow.
The Rules Committe (RC):
IDK I think they are in a tough spot but they are haphazard. They banned Hullbreacher (no effect locally) and Flash (no effect locally) but they won't touch DOckside Extortionist (breaking games here) or Thassa's Oracle (Oops I win games) and won't remove attractions when they are widely unwelcome over here. Same with stickers.
I think the RC isn't useful at the moment. Just posting a "Things are great, lots of different decks enjoy the new set" every 3 months is...something. I mean why post an update if there aren't changes? And telling us you won't ban stuff and are equally reluctant to unban. Just..why have the RC?
Just pass the Banned List to Wizards, let them do stuff with it and we'll move on.
if dockside is doing that well that means y'all aren't learning its meant to punish people for playing lots of low mana artifacts and token artifacts, so if someone is consistently playing a deck with it stop playing those kinds of decks. On another note the only people that play thoracle combo at a casual table have 0 place at a casual table and you as a community need to bully them into either playing something else or out of the group, by say never letting that person play. edh communities have to be self regulating you even give a good example of it for your own group. Also just cause hullbreacher wasn't doing anything to you doesn't mean it wasn't happening everywhere else. you need to remember that a lot of the ban list is signpost bans as in "we are banning x because the mechanic it represents isn't something we want in the format but we don't want to ban every single one of those cards'
Only issue and only once I’ve had with rule 0 is at my lgs we play winner gets a pack of the current set. Had a new guy to the lgs say I’m playing a 7 I just built so we all said fine went with 6/7’s then he killed us on turn 5. I told him not to say he’s playing a 7 if he’s playing a 9 or higher. His response was sorry I just wanted to win that pack. Like really dude you annoy everyone at the table by lying for a pack of cards.
I've been introduced to EDH back when the first EDH product was created back in 2011(god it's been that long huh) and I have throughout my years only encountered a rule 0 talk once, which was from a dude who asked if everyone was fine with not using tutors to win(whatever that even means) and then proceeds to have a CEDH turn 1 of producing 6+ mana, play their commander and set up draw engine(the irony was lost in this one)
To be honest, I have difficulty wrapping my head around the notion of rule 0. On one hand I understand the need to say "we playing casual, no CEDH nonsense allowed" but then again, isn't it up to the players in the table to regulate someone who's clearly there to just curbstomp? Like if someone brings up a CEDH deck to a casual deck and everyone is fine with it, neat, it can even become a archenemy sort of game. If not, then kick the CEDH deck out. They know what they are doing, they didn't just copy paste a CEDH deck off a website for "fun casual time"
So to me rather than function as a way to separate casual from CEDH, it seems more like an arbitrary "rule" that certain people bring up so that they can police others. Stuff like "no infinite combos" or "no wraths" are just ridiculous to me and are clearly just people who don't know how to build decks and have no desire to improve instead force everyone else to play down to their level. On the other hand if you use some weird card as your commander even though it can't be a legal commander, but everyone is ok with you using it since it's just for fun, then is that really Rule 0, or is it just people wanting to have a good time?
Basically, there's no need for rule 0, because at the end of the day people just want to have a good time and they will allow outside the box nonsense to happen if it means more fun. So establishing a "rule 0" only results in certain people using it as policing tool against others so they can have "their" fun but no one else.
What are people’s problems with attractions and stickers anyway? I don’t think they are that problematic.
I think it's due to the fact they could be played in basically 'regular' formats rather than solely being an Un-set draft mechanic. I think they're fine in commander and have been pretty fun and make it so the deck struggles to play out the same way every time.
The only mechanic as of late I found 'offensive' is Initiative because that mechanic basically FORCES players to engage in a mechanic they didn't build for or even want to participate in anyway. Stickers/Attractions don't force the rest of the table to actively engage with them/keep track of them, only the player using them.
This could have been avoided if they didn't make half of the set legal in ANY FORMAT. The fucking money grabbing is starting to gum-up the gameplay now.
The Actual Rule 0:
Do you play pauper or premodern?
If they don’t play either there is no game to be played lol
I feel like you could just make casual a different format from cedh and it would solve a lot of issues xD
Commander Players are essentially the "Fun Police" change my mind.
I would allow sylvan Primordial if you promise me not to blink it (or use any similar method to have it etb repeatedly).
If sweatlords weren't trying to murder the fun, we wouldn't need Fun Police.
@@Cybertech134fun is subjective. So how about you grow up a little.
rule zero is so stupid, am I supposed to build like 5 different decks? I don't have thousands of dollars to invest in this luxury hobby.
Have you ever heard of a machine called a "printer" ?
There are plenty of cheap and affordable budget decks. And the only way you'd think rule zero is stupid while also complaining about a lack of money is if you've invested into one cancerous deck that nobody wants to play against.
@@Cybertech134 lol I'm not going to do that for a side format, you're going to play against my sick tivit deck or I'm going to play with someone who's less of a scrub
If Mark Rosewater said it, and it’s not about design, it’s probably wrong.
I dunno, his comments about how the RL keeps a very toxic element in the community that would otherwise move on to more economically exploitable pastures seemed pretty insightful to me.
By and large, it’s been my experience since starting in April of 1996 that people who are deeply concerned with the monetary value of their cards tend to care about that to the exclusion of things like how healthy are the game’s various formats, how well is the hobby recruiting serious replacement hobbyists for those lost to natural attrition, etc.
I can’t point to a single CCG with an extremely strong collector/investor element that isn’t having membership-retention issues due to extremely steep price-barriers to genuine entry.
On that subject, MaRo seems pretty on point. Many RL collectors don’t even ever buy Sealed product or post-Mercadian Masques Singles, so I’m with the Professor, when he said, “Why should our hobby continue to pander to people who only have a selfish, even parasitic relationship with MtG?”
Mark’s comment about Un Cards sounds more like a “dad make brother play the game i want” excuse than it does any kind of statement about the reality of most Rule 0s or regular gaming pods. People dont want to play with Un cards in their regular commander games? Okay??? Then go find some people who do want to rather than complain until everyone gets forced to play with stickers?
Rule zero doesn't work at all. The RC might as well not exist, fiddling while Rome burns.
Adding un-cards to commander wasn't an experiment, it was an attempt to push boxes on casual players that was rejected. Only competitive players used the majority of these legal un-cards and i've only seen 3 or 4 cards actually played.
Btw when it comes to commander I trust literally zero opinions from Mark Rosewater. He has openly said he hates commander.
They should let someone else run the whole show for a year . Mark put his own name into a card - Maro. Heresy!