Hey folks, my video from Thursday got the frowny face from UA-cam, probably because I used "Torment" in the title to be silly. It would mean A LOT to me if you gave it a watch, it's an awesome Mono Red Control (yes, mono red CONTROL) Commander build that my friend has been piloting and refining for close to half a decade and it is a sight: ua-cam.com/video/OdPbJiKvkLM/v-deo.html
I did watch it. It was good satirical fun. I hope you more videos like that: some people play the game for fun, others to win, and others to do both. Now...is there a way I can play commander online?
That had me dying haha. I fully agree with that point though. Everyone in edh has a different idea of fun and that often leads bad feelings or conflict between players.
@@deionsamuels3812 For me, it's about player attitudes. I've been in Magic for about a year now and I've met two types of people so far: super awesome people who want to have a fun time playing an amazing game. This is about 80% of the playerbase. The other 20% are complete degenerates in one way or another. Toxic, rude, morbidly obese with poor hygiene (I have chonker friends; none make me move my seat over if I sit next to them!), arrogant, egotistical, take your pick or mix and match. I love this game but sometimes the people.... holy MOLY. Most "Rule 0" disputes that actually feel bad are because one of the players involved is an asswipe.
@@nimmer4749 You've only been in magic about a year eh? I've been in it much longer... It's a lot more than 20%, that or I've been extremely unlucky. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "Play better cards, your deck sucks." I know how to play competitive magic and I find it very boring and repetitive so I play value and fun jank.
@@ryangainey94 Ah sorry to hear that. It might sound arrogant but I find my city's populace exceptionally nice, I'll never move away from here, so I think I just lucked out.
"Does that mean I can't play commander?" "Normally no but you did just tell us that the only type of deck you've ever built is stax and if that's really the strategy that spoke to you first I'm worried you might be a serial killer."
Man, I can only hope every human interaction involved this level of care and attention to others, from worklife to dating to family life, honest conversations about boundaries and expectations are always a great way to make sure everyone is happy.
Most of the time when I try and start a rule zero conversation at my LGS, I get the response "I'm not telling you what my deck can do!" or "Why would I tell you my wincon?" It definitely been a frustrating experience, even though I've tried using many of the tips the Prof and other content creators have suggested.
Hidden information is one of the big points of a the game. An experienced player can usually tell what a decks up to unless the pilot is actively hiding what the deck is. Like the command zones Cromat Nekusar would be in that category.
I think honestly those folks should at least share broadly what their decks are like. It's not like you're asking for a decklist. If I'm going to be playing a game for 2 hours, I at least want a sense of what that's going to be like and if it's not a play style I enjoy playing with (stax, MLD), then I'll politely excuse myself or request to switch decks if possible.
I've noticed that, too. I've been playing mtg for 5+ years, I know when to counter an ad nas or that I don't love sit across from whatever dumb stuff you're going to have Gitrog do. I can easily reveal my deck's type and power level while still retaining the mystery in the 100 cards I'm bringing to the table, but there is a group of people that seem to struggle with this.
Oh, that sounds frustrating, I'm sorry to hear that. I understand that some players would like to play with everything being a surprise, but for a casual no-stakes game it's also reasonable for someone to want to know what they're playing against and it sounds like the players where you are just aren't open to that. I hope you find a group you can enjoy commander with.
Can I add (based on experience): letting people know how comfortable you are with playing your deck is helpful. If you can pilot it fast you might leave other players confused; if you just built it and haven't tested much it might take a while to make plays. It helps to know this in advance.
This is important - with the talk about Planechase possibly returning with commander precons, I assume a lot more of commander games will play with the addition of planes. The added complexity is sure to disrupt the flow of the game if some of the players are not comfortable with piloting their own deck having to consider the effects of the planes on top.
@@DarthTUK Yea some time ago me and some friends tried planechase for the first time. In short: we ended up skipping a single players turn 3 times with a combination of morph effects and planechase effects. We are very close friends, so we had a good laugh about it, but i Can imagine under different circumstances, skipping 3 turns for someone would produce a fuckton of salt(and i would not blame them).
I mean, yes, but it's a lot easier for players to assemble a deck worth like $150 to meet the lower power level than it is for one player to assemble a $5k deck to meet the higher power level, which is why I think most people focus on only the higher power decks.
Right. A lower power level means you might be the one not having any fun. I can't tell you the number of times I've wound up bringing a toothpick to an interstellar death star war. (Hey, knife to a gunfight is pretty dated and if you're any good aim with a throwing knife or good at dodging bullets you might survive)
Yeah, it's not a lot of fun boxing with a pacifist, or a person who has no arms and legs. Don't be 'that guy' bringing a bad 7 to a cEDH table, it's just not fair to other people. They came to hunt tigers, and BAM! all they see is a kitten, just no thrill there.
@@mightyone3737 Okay, but what if you don't have the money for a cEDH table and all the other pods are full? Like I said earlier, it's far more likely that someone can't afford a $5k deck than the rest of the group can't collectively afford $500.
I recently went to an open table night at a local game shop with my Dice Rolls Delina deck. It got shut down by players going infinite turn 4 and I was sad.
One store near me actually made a rule against this, the so called “lucky seven rule”, that nobody in commander can go infinite in any way before turn 7
@@thenintendoguy643 but you can smack my face on turn 4 with commander damage. I don’t know why inf get that much hate. I don’t like t4 decks either but the way I loose is just the same annoying thing.
@@thenintendoguy643 I used to be my thing to (more like esper because I needed fieldwhipes and consistency but my playgroup started to play less and less removal and look at me If there was a problem and smack me if I solved them as a problem. Then I built an aggro combo deck to show them how lame there decks where but it went of faster. I loved to say start playing removal. For a period I tried to establish roles on the table and players to pick their deck accordingly. Like aggro, combo, tempo and control. This should create a balanced game play experience and development as a player and builder.
I just love the thought and effort that goes into providing important information in an enjoyable package, I feel some people don't give the prof enough credit for his skits and comedic elements he puts into his videos, the part where Joe said go play arena was hilarious
As someone who is really trying to learn the nuances of Magic after a decade of no play, I love the way that The Professor manages to translate ideas in a very simple and straightforward way. He's my spirit animal when I'm sputtering at the table trying to communicate ideas to the rest of the playgroup. He also always seems to put out a video concerning a topic that my group has discussed the night before, which leads back to that idea that we're all sitting at the same tables trying to have a good time.
I packed a Tergrid, sleeved up the deck in a day, had everything lying around for it. I shuffled it up, played a test game, put it up on a shelf and it's still sitting there. I will stick to my Balthor, the defiled demon tribal deck for mono b fun.
Gimme all the rule 0, all the time. I love jank and shenanigans, and rule 0 enables so much silliness. And really, isn't silliness the heart of commander?
I've been buying my kids MTG cards for about 20 years, and just learned to play on mother's Day this year 2021. I have gone from being a complete noob to building 60 card decks 200 card decks to Commander decks. I have over 6,000 cards now, and I enjoy playing casual, proxy and other blends and flavors of the game. Videos like this have been really helping me along the way and catching me up to where my kids have already made it. Even though now they are adults I have told them to absolutely not take it easy on me because pity winning sucks balls. Thank you for the wonderful content of your videos and for allowing us players to meet different people involved in the game, and for the interesting way that you present your information. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
i only started watching "I Hate Your Deck" because of the ep with you prof, love me some Kyle Hill action. Nice to see see Joe here as well, he's a good guest for the show
This is a great subject that I enjoy seeing revisited from time to time. I was lucky enough to have my first in store game experience recently, and in my favorite format Commander! Rule zero was definitely a great start to this experience and makes me want to repeat it.
So glad you made a video on the « non game » aspect of commander, I think it’s as much important to consider how to build decks, how to play, how to make deals, how to win, as to achieve the general purpose of any game: having a good time playing it! It’s definitely worth a new subscriber! Greetings from France
I still remember my first ever game at my LGS when the the shop owner pulled out his full-out Urza stax deck against my just built, just jank Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck
"This is my Zaffai deck. I love it. It is spell slingers, and looks to create an army of elementals. It has a few extra turn spells, but they are for the purpose of generating value and moving to close out the game, not for pointless durdling. The deck can win unimpeded in anywhere from 5 to 7 turns (not including any extra turns)." How does that sound?
Sounds good, always be honest with how quick your deck can win. Some games last for hours and some minutes as you already know. The quicker your deck wins, the more powerful. Always mention that to ensure everyone realizes what kind of game it will be.
Last time we played I asked "So what's the power level of everyone's deck" and everyone said "I really don't know. It's hard to gauge that." and they're right. Talking like this makes it much easier to know what everyone is bringing to the table.
In my opinion, a must do before the game is to make clear wether it is okay to change plays or targets. We all make mistakes, but sometimes player politics gets involved.
In our group, I just enjoy playing with the gang. Three weeks later everyone else has escalated to nuclear options and I am still sitting there with my version off Bear Force One.
really great message!!! and i think it's worth mentioning that those conversations evolve. For example you're talking with your playgroup about the card you had been thinking: "it would be a really cool commander, but it isn't legendary" and all say: "just go for it" or "Oh yeah I have one of those aswell; let's have a game/evening with non-legendary commander as General just post/message your "commander" in the group first
I take notes on every game my playgroup plays and send out a summary every week highlighting cool plays and powerful interactions. This really keeps the playgroup in good spirits and aware of certain deck's power levels.
They gave me a great idea during the video. Best way to determine power level: Based on, uninterrupted play, on what turn does your deck typically win. Then that is the power level. Winning on turn 1 is a 1 and so on. Winning for 8 is power level 8. Quickly we would see a huge separation of deck goals based on under turn 5 wins. 5-10 and 10+.
That is just the fastest race power level scale. Control decks can be strong but will be a 10+ but will win 90% of the time if it is in games like it is a 10+
cEDH player thoughts: Infinite combos vs. "fair Magic" "Even if you are ok with proxies someone could come up with a Gaea's Craddle proxy" wait, that person is not ok with proxies then (possibly only a subset of it). "If you're looking to only win, no matter what", but as a cEDH player my pleasure is to play against people who seek for this too. If they don't go for the win with all their skills they would be denying me (and others at the table) the competitive experience we find fun in. But in conclusion, this kind of talk is extremely important for everyone to feel good about the game. Thank you both for being a positive force for all our communities :D
I think like many Cedh players you are confusing playing only to win with playing to win. If your deck is so imbalanced, that you can expect to win every game, but were you to switch decks, you would expect to lose every game, that is imbalanced not "competitive". Think of it like professional boxing. EDH is boxing with weight classes. The fights are balanced and entertaining. CEDH is the heavy weight class only. It might be a good fight or it might be a total mismatch and over in 10 seconds. While EDH players are playing to win in the game (to the best of the ability of their selected deck), they are doing so through competitive and balanced play, not simply selecting a deck that is unfair based on the decks other players have available.
@@Dragon_Fyre Neil, I think you are confusing what I said with what you intended to read. What you wrote is mostly unrelated to the points I was making, and starting a conversation the way you did is somewhat rude.
@@UnexpectedDanger We do. A lot of people pays attention to the way the RC (mis)treats our community, so a lot of us use the pregame talks to check if an alternative banlist will be used. And besides that stating what strategy are you playing and knowing what are the decks you're playing against (with decklist access) is almost a given.
@@RafaelAAMerlo I was responding to one specific point that you made, which was quite clear. I was simply disagreeing with you; I dont believe I said anything rude or insulting.
Joe here with his own channel (prof has been featured on) is the person who single handle changed my idea of mtg commander. Glad to see 2 of my favorites if not my favorites working together. Glad to see this good and have so much good points
This year I've started playing Commander and I've noticed that compared to other formats it's more like having a jam session with musicians, or watching a work of art unfold. There's an appreciation for the journey over the destination. With the groups I've played with, a cool interaction or flashy turn is valued over winning or losing. I have an Osgir precon with 5 cards switched out, and if my deck isn't doing much in a game I like to just lay low and watch the fireworks fly between the other players. I've had fun learning a new way to appreciate Magic
One of my friends recommended this to me, as we're a group of friends who play a lot. We know each other's decks more or less in and out, but as we bring newer and younger players to the group, this is a really good way to start the game! Thanks guys!
Excellent video! My playgroup has been wanting to start pre game conversations but haven't been sure what form that would take. Thank you for this useful guide!
Our play group is going to adopt this.. Very important.. Joe its always good to see you.. Great episode.. Love and respect from Colorado!! To Joe and the Professor!
Hey Joe. I don't know if you remember but we played a week or two ago. I played Azusa and failed the pregame conversation. I appreciate this video and will use it next time when playing to help gauge power.
Thank you guys so much for this video! me and my core group have had issues with powerlevels and rule zero when it comes to forming a pod or deck building. I am sharing this immediately and am gonna probably price my decks and stuff out so I can have more fun games and less feels bads.
"Upgraded my precon" really doesnt matter at this point... Precon decks have become seriously powerful in their vanilla state. Just ran into unaltered Prosper and since I hadnt followed the AFR decklists, I seriously thought that deck was custom made. Way too good and synergistic for a precon now imho. On the flip side, it is nice that new players can just buy a precon and not feel outmatched at the table.
Great video. Our group asks: A. how many turns to a win? B. how does your deck win? C. Is this a stax heavy game? These questions allow us to quickly assess power level, mana ramp, win efficiency etc. The turns to a win question shows us pretty quickly what the ramp and tutoring packages are. The deck win condition question also helps us to understand tutors and efficiency. And stax bc... stax. Good luck everyone!
Ahh yes, Those who wanna know how my deck plays. ZOMBIES with the infinites that were unintentionally built in I.E. any sac outlet, liliana, Untouched by death, and Rooftop Storm
Happy to see my bloom tender alter sleeve design on this video! Really important topic that everyone should discuss before a game, there's nothing more important in a game of commander than a ealthy environment.
Rule 0: Everyone asking "clarifying questions." Parameters of rule 0: no one is allowed to get upset by these questions, and no one is allowed to ask their questions in a negative tone. If either is suspected, revert to "clarifying questions", rinse and repeat all until pod is satisfied. Exceptions: Official tournaments are not there with fun at the forefront. Prior to staging a commander league or other competitive event, refer to beginning. K.I.S.S. ; Keep It Stupid Simple. This is not to say it needs to be understood by the dumbest in the room. It's that these general guidance ideas allows diverse, yet specific, "rules" that any pod or event can use for their own and still not be paralyzed by indecision.
6:40 Also make sure to not outright lie and say that your Urza deck has no infinite combos when you're running basalt and grim monolith + power artifact, as well as palinchron with high tide and phantasmal image
if your playing urza, I think everyone has an idea of what happens at this point. "There's no such thing as a low power urza deck" Josh Lee-Kwai from the command zone when trying to build a friendly urza deck for game knights (he gave up, it was just too good)
Great talk about expectations. This kinda discussion should happen more in commander. Could lead to less feel bads if everyone is on the same page as far as gameplay.
Is it really too much to ask to have a format with a predetermined number of rares and mythics? I really feel like that's how the game is designed. But NOPE.. you either play in singleton formats specifically designed for the biggest and largest spells to flourish or you play Pauper and get NOTHING and you'll like it!
@@coltonkinder1424 This should be repeated early and often. The only thing worse than Commander is the discourse surrounding it. It’s like a religion in which you must follow the sacred EDH scriptures in order to play it the “right” way.
They actually do have the rule 0 discussion but they don't film it and include it. They play 1-2 games in advance to see how balanced the decks are before proceeding to the main event.
I disagree with that addition to the show. Command zone episodes are about entertainment, not teaching people the game. Adding a boring repetitive convo to the start of each episode would not be a valuable addition IMO.
I agree that it's less of a highly edited show, but it's not a how to play show either. It's still gameplay entertainment so I think it would get old very fast.
Awesome vid guys. I just got my girl into magic. And shes been worried about playing outside the home cause she so knew i think sharing this vid with her will help with some of her anxiety playing outside the home. Thanks a bunch guys
You missed the most important part of the Rule zero: Even if all the players do their best to have a conversation that explains the experience they want to get, they can still fail to communicate and they can misunderstand the potential of their decks. If this happens don't be upset, don't get mad at ohters, learn and try to have better experience the next time.
We've always had boundaries at Magic. Please don't ever touch my cards vs You are free to read my cards. Dice for Life totals is fine vs not fine. The art on that token borders on porn vs cool tokens. Rule 0 simply says clear these sorts of things out before you play, especially if you arent using a judge. "Just call a judge" to get oracle text or deem a card marked vs not, doesnt work if there is no judge.
@@FitGuyAZ577 That comes from every individual wanting their idea of fun to be accepted and facilitated by everyone else. Don't be part of that problem. Time to rediscover how to fit in with any group instead of demanding that every group fit itself to you.
I have always liked a two part comparison based on total cost as the primary (since MOST Cedh decks cost quite more than a casual version) as well as a "is there an infinite combo or a one turn wincon" tag to the deck. If the deck has the potential to win in a turn but requires lots of moving pieces and that win con is usually late game (turn 10-15 or later) then that is a value win con too. This has helped me with decks to allow everyone to have a fair time at the table.
This was great, I remember and older video from the professor about power level discussions, this video seems much better and these questions will lead to great results
If a player is playing an obviously overpowered build in my pod I always tell them don't be upset when you get targeted or ganged up on. Cause its gonna happen.
I never make a deck that has the number one goal of winning. I focus on the themes and memes. So my pirate deck has voracious greatshark as it’s only counterspell 👀; even if I hae better counterspells available to me.
Excellent take on la règle du jeu by Jeff Daniels and Joe - the kitchen table group I love to play with is very easygoing on mulligans, mainly so all of us have fun. Would be interesting to simply have that convo in other settings, which I thought was just not a thing. And that hooded sweatshirt...*chef's kiss*
Also it feels like forcing people through Rule 0 to shell out their gameplan before a game even starts can lead to incredibly feelsbad moments. Its going to give the other players pre-conceived notions about target focus. Someone might be unfairly deleted from the game in a 3v1 scenario that they were doomed to encounter before the game even started because the other players didn’t like the deck when it was explained in this “Rule 0” pre-game
I feel as long as the players are using threat assessment and table politics this should not be an issue. Just because someone talks about having something nasty in the deck doesn't mean the table hyper focuses them. If they are behind on lands or having a rough start that wouldn't be in the spirit of commander to rush them down because of the pregame talk. There should be constant social interactions throughout the game. The real reason we are all playing the game is to have a good time :)
@@albertoftw The people who "need" Rule 0 like described in this video tend to run suboptimal decks that don't play a lot of interaction. So, yes, I'm assuming they aren't running enough interaction. The average EDH player isn't that good at building decks, and typically won't have an established collection with which to build a deck from.
We're starting a new playgroup later this month. I still had the 2019 precons and upgraded them through a budget upgrade guide, so I hope they all come out at a similar power level. Can't wait to finally experience my first Commander game myself.
Thanks Proff! I've been going through your "Is it worth it to buy X" commander precons from the past year or so, so I can help a friend who's interested in trying magic for the first time, and trying to find a good precon for them to pick up cheaply. Also, enjoy this vid, enjoy Joe's 'I Hate your Deck,' and the ep of it where you and Kyle were on. Both of you keep up the great work!
I have been watching for years, and helped quite a bit by your reviews and information. I'm a fan. But this video, might very well be the most useful thing I have seen on this channel. Great job guys.
Very important video, thank you for that. There isn't enough pregame talk overall, especially in LGS. I always want to know what every deck wants to accomplish, because otherwise all information I have is their commander and there have been many times where I've really hated on specific decks during the game because I thought they might go off anytime when in reality they were more janky than expected. I also love the fact that I Hate Your Deck includes rule 0 talks now :) Good job, guys!
“You might not be able to play your deck.” This statement exemplifies everything wrong with what EDH has become. If you can’t stand losing to the point that you will be salty for the rest of the night or don’t like when your deck gets dunked on then maybe playing games isn’t the hobby for you. Maybe try model building.
Everthing that's wrong with EDH?? Maybe if you continue playing a deck that people in your playgroup don't enjoy playing against then maybe play another deck once in a while how is that unreasonable? Again EDH is a social casual format is not always about just YOU or I is about maximizing EVERYONES good time. There's other formats for what you are suggesting
The key is to find the players that love the experience you want to have. I used to have a Mina and Denn MLD deck, the kind that cycled MLD frequently because it didn't hurt me. Understandably not everyone wants to play that experience, but when I asked a new playgroup, sometimes I would have them all pull out decks they think can get under or over what I am doing and we all have a blast. Other times I play purphoros goblins, because hey, that's fair magic right?
This is completely misunderstanding the point of rule 0 entirely, which is the biggest problem of EDH being the most popular mtg format at the moment. No three players are forced to play against a stax/mld/handlock/etc. if that's not the experience they're looking for, whether at an LGS or your common playgroup. If you don't like to play different strategies and/or adapt to different player types when it's being discussed, maybe playing games isn't the hobby for you either. Maybe try model building.
@@Seanr670 Imagine a game of basketball where a player didn't like the fact that he didn't get any rebounds because he was shorter than the another player. I don't know of any reasonable reality where we would suggest the tall player to "not get rebounds" or "is not allowed to play with us because we're not having fun". But in EDH this is what Rule 0 has become. I don't dislike the intent behind Rule 0. Please, in your playgroups have discussion amongst friends but at the same time it is not an excuse to exclude others because of your personal preference of how Magic should be played. We all know monsters who play mill decks. But hey it's what they like to play so let them play it. We as a group should not decide that we don't like viable and legal aspects of the game and expect others to buy/build a new deck to accommodate. And honestly, most games are won and lost by misplays. Yes, decks can fall into good and bad categories but if you really look at "feel bad losses" you would probably find that most players didn't play optimally/misread board states/made bad deals, etc. And hey, mana screw is a thing too. What most players need to do is learn to play around other strategies. If someone keeps showing up with the same deck it shouldn't be too hard to shut them out of the game. It's how the game works. No one's decklist is the Gospel and someone shouldn't have to not play with their toys because someone else has decided they "don't like them".
Very few of the issues in this video are exclusive to Commander. Power level differences, along with differing expectations for what kind of game you're playing, are a potential pain point of every non-tournament game.
Hate to be that person, but... Almost all of the power level issues would be solved if the rules committee actually used the ban list appropriately instead of as "signaling". I dislike rule 0 for rules discussion. The social stuff should come as a given in any game of multiplayer magic.
Simply not true, even if we ignore precons and below and CEDH, there's still a massive, nebulous pool of decks in between where some decks win on turn 4 and others on turn 10 if they draw well. I don't know if this can be reconciled even with hundreds of bans.
@@nicholashowie5829 The problem isn't that powerful cards exist, it's that some cards are so vastly powerful that they warp the game around them. Basically every player can afford Sol Ring but that doesn't mean the format is better for it being in. A turn 1 Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc can completely invalidate whatever rating you gave your deck in the pre-game talk - they can turn a deck that's normally a 5 into a 7, or a seven into an 8, etc. And the rules committee hides behind rule zero, saying "if you don't like the gameplay those provide, then rule 0 them". However, rule 0 makes it difficult to bring your decks to events, other stores, or anywhere outside your play group and have fun without having to also carry around a bunch of extra cards to swap in and out. So everyone just defaults to the published banned list, which is ineffective as I've said before.
@@Thyeggman the power level problem really isn't about good starting hands, if a table can't handle a player starting sol ring, then chances are the lucky players deck was too powerful in the first place, and this is usually due to a generally higher card quality than just starting sol ring. For example, my Animar deck isn't quite CEDH, but too strong for most casual tables, I usually win turn 5, no fast mana required. No deck that's actually a "6" is gonna win against that even with their turn 1 sol ring, arcane signet. My point is that even banning the absolute best cards will have little impact on bringing power levels closer, save for lowering the CEDH ceiling a bit. There's just too many good cards that create impressive (oppressive?) combos. The issue with leaving power level issues to the RC in the first place is that ban lists typically only impact the highest level of play.
Videos like these make me feel blessed. I generally just play with whoever, whenever. Never really ended up in a situation where folks felt salty, and wishing they discussed ahead of time. Even when some rando ends up running a turbo charged deck. It really just comes down to having fun with the social aspect. You know the table talk, and goofing around. Funny story. One week I was just catching a in between round game of commander at draft. Well this kid comes up, and says "I do not have my deck on me. What power level are your decks?". We look at him and say "we don't know". He got huffy 'n puffy, and kept asking. We essentially kept giving the same answer. He eventually got really pissy, said "Well they seem to be low power", and stormed off. First time I had seen someone pissed off over the "power level" of decks 😅
I never thought so in depth about this before, but I get it and personally I do a lot of these things already. One of the biggest things I've noticed with my playgroup is the understating of a deck, because I am usually straight forward with my explanation, but others really don't say much about it or say "its not THAT good"
These talks are essential for our group, we have three levels: beloved precon, modified custom decklist, and CEDH. We need to know who grabbed what and that no one has the house-banned cards.
I loved this video, inspiring and educating. Will you make one about in-game discussion such as creating pacts, breaking them and other things I can't even imagine at this point in time?
Love the video. Rule 0 discussions are just what is needed to ensure good times. No one likes getting shut out of a match up and magic is always better when the games are close.
and let's hope that tire 1 con will move some of the things that need to happen in commander so it will be a real formant that everyone can have fun while playing it
Hey folks, my video from Thursday got the frowny face from UA-cam, probably because I used "Torment" in the title to be silly. It would mean A LOT to me if you gave it a watch, it's an awesome Mono Red Control (yes, mono red CONTROL) Commander build that my friend has been piloting and refining for close to half a decade and it is a sight: ua-cam.com/video/OdPbJiKvkLM/v-deo.html
That's just UA-cam becoming self aware and hating on you giving tips like these out for free...
Casual, fair magic is the only magic
It was a great video deck tech, actually
Hate to hear about the censorship Prof.! Keep up the phenominal content!
I did watch it. It was good satirical fun. I hope you more videos like that: some people play the game for fun, others to win, and others to do both.
Now...is there a way I can play commander online?
There are only 3 power levels: precon, 7, cedh
Too true!
and jank
And "new player who doesn't know what EDH is," bringing garbage commons worse than even the oldest precons.
Yes! Our playgroup just go for the Cedh without the reserved list cards. And it is still sooo far over the power level of a "7"
@@centurosproductions8827 there's no reason to personally attack me
"One of the biggest problems in commander are the players."
Prof coming right out the gate with stone cold truth today
That had me dying haha. I fully agree with that point though. Everyone in edh has a different idea of fun and that often leads bad feelings or conflict between players.
The players, the RC, Sheldons bad takes.
top 3 biggest problems with Commander.
@@deionsamuels3812 For me, it's about player attitudes. I've been in Magic for about a year now and I've met two types of people so far: super awesome people who want to have a fun time playing an amazing game. This is about 80% of the playerbase. The other 20% are complete degenerates in one way or another. Toxic, rude, morbidly obese with poor hygiene (I have chonker friends; none make me move my seat over if I sit next to them!), arrogant, egotistical, take your pick or mix and match. I love this game but sometimes the people.... holy MOLY. Most "Rule 0" disputes that actually feel bad are because one of the players involved is an asswipe.
@@nimmer4749 You've only been in magic about a year eh? I've been in it much longer... It's a lot more than 20%, that or I've been extremely unlucky. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "Play better cards, your deck sucks." I know how to play competitive magic and I find it very boring and repetitive so I play value and fun jank.
@@ryangainey94 Ah sorry to hear that. It might sound arrogant but I find my city's populace exceptionally nice, I'll never move away from here, so I think I just lucked out.
This was so much fun to work on! Thank you for having me Prof! I hope everyone can gain something from this!
Great pleasure to see you here, Joe! Hugs from the cEDH community and thank you for popularizing pregame talks :D
hope you invite the prof and budget thor back in IHYD.
Make sure you “fix” that Lorehold deck.
@@matchiu92 They will definitely be back!
@@darkzero3 It's been thrown in the trash LOL
Pregame discussion: Am I bringing a knife to a gun fight or did I bring a gun to a knife fight?
That's not far off!
"Oh, you all brought baseball bats? What am I supposed to do with this M4-A1S?
@@Qril Not much against my Tiger tank =D
Group Hug anyone.
@@MINDofNIV btw I covered my jacket with knives
"Hey, what does your deck do?"
"To be honest, I have no idea."
"How does your deck win?"
"... I don't understand the question"
Wait, you’re supposed to win(
@@jamescampbell2353 But I play Pheldagriff...
New player: do you politic?
Me: GROUP HUG
@@dif4797 so do I, there is always a way to win.
"Does that mean I can't play commander?"
"Normally no but you did just tell us that the only type of deck you've ever built is stax and if that's really the strategy that spoke to you first I'm worried you might be a serial killer."
Fun has been cancelled
"I'm not saying you CAN'T play Magic if you play stax, I'm saying be prepared for no one to want to play with you"
L o l
@@alexandercandicedad1355 But Stax is so much fun
@@bestaround3323 fun is highly subjective.
Man, I can only hope every human interaction involved this level of care and attention to others, from worklife to dating to family life, honest conversations about boundaries and expectations are always a great way to make sure everyone is happy.
Same hopes. It will make humanity better
Most of the time when I try and start a rule zero conversation at my LGS, I get the response "I'm not telling you what my deck can do!" or "Why would I tell you my wincon?" It definitely been a frustrating experience, even though I've tried using many of the tips the Prof and other content creators have suggested.
Hidden information is one of the big points of a the game. An experienced player can usually tell what a decks up to unless the pilot is actively hiding what the deck is. Like the command zones Cromat Nekusar would be in that category.
I think honestly those folks should at least share broadly what their decks are like. It's not like you're asking for a decklist. If I'm going to be playing a game for 2 hours, I at least want a sense of what that's going to be like and if it's not a play style I enjoy playing with (stax, MLD), then I'll politely excuse myself or request to switch decks if possible.
If the group is cilled.. then I dont mind share some info so they have a feeling about the deck, or if they share info then I will too
I've noticed that, too. I've been playing mtg for 5+ years, I know when to counter an ad nas or that I don't love sit across from whatever dumb stuff you're going to have Gitrog do. I can easily reveal my deck's type and power level while still retaining the mystery in the 100 cards I'm bringing to the table, but there is a group of people that seem to struggle with this.
Oh, that sounds frustrating, I'm sorry to hear that. I understand that some players would like to play with everything being a surprise, but for a casual no-stakes game it's also reasonable for someone to want to know what they're playing against and it sounds like the players where you are just aren't open to that. I hope you find a group you can enjoy commander with.
Can I add (based on experience): letting people know how comfortable you are with playing your deck is helpful. If you can pilot it fast you might leave other players confused; if you just built it and haven't tested much it might take a while to make plays. It helps to know this in advance.
This is important - with the talk about Planechase possibly returning with commander precons, I assume a lot more of commander games will play with the addition of planes. The added complexity is sure to disrupt the flow of the game if some of the players are not comfortable with piloting their own deck having to consider the effects of the planes on top.
@@DarthTUK Yea some time ago me and some friends tried planechase for the first time. In short: we ended up skipping a single players turn 3 times with a combination of morph effects and planechase effects. We are very close friends, so we had a good laugh about it, but i Can imagine under different circumstances, skipping 3 turns for someone would produce a fuckton of salt(and i would not blame them).
I agree. Decks can infringe on rule 0 discussion even if its a lower power level than the rest of the table.
I mean, yes, but it's a lot easier for players to assemble a deck worth like $150 to meet the lower power level than it is for one player to assemble a $5k deck to meet the higher power level, which is why I think most people focus on only the higher power decks.
Right. A lower power level means you might be the one not having any fun. I can't tell you the number of times I've wound up bringing a toothpick to an interstellar death star war. (Hey, knife to a gunfight is pretty dated and if you're any good aim with a throwing knife or good at dodging bullets you might survive)
Yeah, it's not a lot of fun boxing with a pacifist, or a person who has no arms and legs. Don't be 'that guy' bringing a bad 7 to a cEDH table, it's just not fair to other people. They came to hunt tigers, and BAM! all they see is a kitten, just no thrill there.
@@mightyone3737 Thing is I have both kinds of deck, but if you come in expecting one kind and you get the other... Disaster strikes
@@mightyone3737 Okay, but what if you don't have the money for a cEDH table and all the other pods are full? Like I said earlier, it's far more likely that someone can't afford a $5k deck than the rest of the group can't collectively afford $500.
i don't think a single tcc video has failed to both educate me, and give a good laugh
I Hate Your Deck's Rule 0 Discussion is one of the best innovations to Commander game play videos I've seen in a long time.
Love seeing more of Joe in MtG content!
he's awesome!
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Aww shucks :)
Check out his youtube content!
I recently went to an open table night at a local game shop with my Dice Rolls Delina deck. It got shut down by players going infinite turn 4 and I was sad.
That doesn't sound very fun.
If you're on spelltable I'd love to play some games with you. Are you on Discord?
One store near me actually made a rule against this, the so called “lucky seven rule”, that nobody in commander can go infinite in any way before turn 7
@@thenintendoguy643 but you can smack my face on turn 4 with commander damage. I don’t know why inf get that much hate. I don’t like t4 decks either but the way I loose is just the same annoying thing.
@@kevin_Masters that’s why I play decks that stall the game out. Mono blue control kinda stuff
@@thenintendoguy643 I used to be my thing to (more like esper because I needed fieldwhipes and consistency but my playgroup started to play less and less removal and look at me If there was a problem and smack me if I solved them as a problem. Then I built an aggro combo deck to show them how lame there decks where but it went of faster. I loved to say start playing removal.
For a period I tried to establish roles on the table and players to pick their deck accordingly. Like aggro, combo, tempo and control. This should create a balanced game play experience and development as a player and builder.
The variant joke at the end hit me harder than I expected. That was great.
hahaha right
I just love the thought and effort that goes into providing important information in an enjoyable package, I feel some people don't give the prof enough credit for his skits and comedic elements he puts into his videos, the part where Joe said go play arena was hilarious
As someone who is really trying to learn the nuances of Magic after a decade of no play, I love the way that The Professor manages to translate ideas in a very simple and straightforward way. He's my spirit animal when I'm sputtering at the table trying to communicate ideas to the rest of the playgroup. He also always seems to put out a video concerning a topic that my group has discussed the night before, which leads back to that idea that we're all sitting at the same tables trying to have a good time.
My new wallpaper: Screenshot of the fake smiles in the end. Glorious.
Nice nice, I really wanted the post credits where the professor is just relaxing.
“What’s everyone playing?” “Tergri….” Understandable have a nice day
Ight ima head out
My roommate has that deck and doesn’t understand why he’s always targeted
How many mulis do we get?(Where is that homeward path..)
I packed a Tergrid, sleeved up the deck in a day, had everything lying around for it. I shuffled it up, played a test game, put it up on a shelf and it's still sitting there.
I will stick to my Balthor, the defiled demon tribal deck for mono b fun.
Thats how I feel with lathril in my group (I broke the game with her )
Gimme all the rule 0, all the time. I love jank and shenanigans, and rule 0 enables so much silliness. And really, isn't silliness the heart of commander?
As far as I'm concerned, silliness is the entire point of commander.
Amen
Janky decks are fun as fuck. Hah it's just a bummer when others make 100% proxy decksm
I've been buying my kids MTG cards for about 20 years, and just learned to play on mother's Day this year 2021. I have gone from being a complete noob to building 60 card decks 200 card decks to Commander decks. I have over 6,000 cards now, and I enjoy playing casual, proxy and other blends and flavors of the game. Videos like this have been really helping me along the way and catching me up to where my kids have already made it. Even though now they are adults I have told them to absolutely not take it easy on me because pity winning sucks balls. Thank you for the wonderful content of your videos and for allowing us players to meet different people involved in the game, and for the interesting way that you present your information. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
i only started watching "I Hate Your Deck" because of the ep with you prof, love me some Kyle Hill action. Nice to see see Joe here as well, he's a good guest for the show
This is a great subject that I enjoy seeing revisited from time to time. I was lucky enough to have my first in store game experience recently, and in my favorite format Commander! Rule zero was definitely a great start to this experience and makes me want to repeat it.
Love the little commander community, going on each other’s channels and supporting one another.
So glad you made a video on the « non game » aspect of commander, I think it’s as much important to consider how to build decks, how to play, how to make deals, how to win, as to achieve the general purpose of any game: having a good time playing it!
It’s definitely worth a new subscriber!
Greetings from France
I still remember my first ever game at my LGS when the the shop owner pulled out his full-out Urza stax deck against my just built, just jank Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck
my old lgs owner played wolf tribal lmao.
I got to play with Joe a couple times here in LA! Truly a delight. :)
He's the best!
@@TolarianCommunityCollege :-D
"This is my Zaffai deck. I love it. It is spell slingers, and looks to create an army of elementals. It has a few extra turn spells, but they are for the purpose of generating value and moving to close out the game, not for pointless durdling. The deck can win unimpeded in anywhere from 5 to 7 turns (not including any extra turns)."
How does that sound?
Sounds good, always be honest with how quick your deck can win. Some games last for hours and some minutes as you already know. The quicker your deck wins, the more powerful. Always mention that to ensure everyone realizes what kind of game it will be.
Last time we played I asked "So what's the power level of everyone's deck" and everyone said "I really don't know. It's hard to gauge that." and they're right. Talking like this makes it much easier to know what everyone is bringing to the table.
In my opinion, a must do before the game is to make clear wether it is okay to change plays or targets. We all make mistakes, but sometimes player politics gets involved.
In our group, I just enjoy playing with the gang. Three weeks later everyone else has escalated to nuclear options and I am still sitting there with my version off Bear Force One.
BEAR FORCE ONE!
"I want a quick game"
Anjie Falkenrath it is!
"I don't have problems if the game goes on for a while"
Teshar stax it is!
Quick: Goro OTK
Slow: Kefnet OTK
Quick game? Witherbloom tokens. Slow game? Tiamat Dragon tribal. Casual game? Shadrix Politics, Farideh D20s matter, or Averna Cascade tribal. Competitive game? Tergrid Aristocrats or Nevinyrral Stax. I've got answers for almost anything anyone could want xD
@@wildcardalbedo Extremely funny and janky but still works because of op commander? Tatyova with 65 lands!
Aesi... More. GAS.
Quick: Edgar, Golos, Krenko, Godo
Mid: Adrix and Nev, Melek, Atla Palani, Karametra, Ardeen and Rograkh
Slow: Meren (But usally wins)
really great message!!! and i think it's worth mentioning that those conversations evolve. For example you're talking with your playgroup about the card you had been thinking: "it would be a really cool commander, but it isn't legendary" and all say: "just go for it" or "Oh yeah I have one of those aswell; let's have a game/evening with non-legendary commander as General just post/message your "commander" in the group first
I take notes on every game my playgroup plays and send out a summary every week highlighting cool plays and powerful interactions. This really keeps the playgroup in good spirits and aware of certain deck's power levels.
They gave me a great idea during the video.
Best way to determine power level:
Based on, uninterrupted play, on what turn does your deck typically win. Then that is the power level. Winning on turn 1 is a 1 and so on. Winning for 8 is power level 8. Quickly we would see a huge separation of deck goals based on under turn 5 wins. 5-10 and 10+.
That is just the fastest race power level scale. Control decks can be strong but will be a 10+ but will win 90% of the time if it is in games like it is a 10+
@@kevin_Masters they key point being uninterrupted. A very powerful control deck still needs to establish a win to establish power level.
cEDH player thoughts:
Infinite combos vs. "fair Magic"
"Even if you are ok with proxies someone could come up with a Gaea's Craddle proxy" wait, that person is not ok with proxies then (possibly only a subset of it).
"If you're looking to only win, no matter what", but as a cEDH player my pleasure is to play against people who seek for this too. If they don't go for the win with all their skills they would be denying me (and others at the table) the competitive experience we find fun in.
But in conclusion, this kind of talk is extremely important for everyone to feel good about the game. Thank you both for being a positive force for all our communities :D
I think like many Cedh players you are confusing playing only to win with playing to win.
If your deck is so imbalanced, that you can expect to win every game, but were you to switch decks, you would expect to lose every game, that is imbalanced not "competitive".
Think of it like professional boxing. EDH is boxing with weight classes. The fights are balanced and entertaining. CEDH is the heavy weight class only. It might be a good fight or it might be a total mismatch and over in 10 seconds.
While EDH players are playing to win in the game (to the best of the ability of their selected deck), they are doing so through competitive and balanced play, not simply selecting a deck that is unfair based on the decks other players have available.
@@Dragon_Fyre Neil, I think you are confusing what I said with what you intended to read. What you wrote is mostly unrelated to the points I was making, and starting a conversation the way you did is somewhat rude.
I don't think rule 0 has anything to do with CEDH lol
@@UnexpectedDanger We do. A lot of people pays attention to the way the RC (mis)treats our community, so a lot of us use the pregame talks to check if an alternative banlist will be used. And besides that stating what strategy are you playing and knowing what are the decks you're playing against (with decklist access) is almost a given.
@@RafaelAAMerlo I was responding to one specific point that you made, which was quite clear. I was simply disagreeing with you; I dont believe I said anything rude or insulting.
Joe here with his own channel (prof has been featured on) is the person who single handle changed my idea of mtg commander. Glad to see 2 of my favorites if not my favorites working together. Glad to see this good and have so much good points
This year I've started playing Commander and I've noticed that compared to other formats it's more like having a jam session with musicians, or watching a work of art unfold. There's an appreciation for the journey over the destination. With the groups I've played with, a cool interaction or flashy turn is valued over winning or losing. I have an Osgir precon with 5 cards switched out, and if my deck isn't doing much in a game I like to just lay low and watch the fireworks fly between the other players. I've had fun learning a new way to appreciate Magic
One of my friends recommended this to me, as we're a group of friends who play a lot. We know each other's decks more or less in and out, but as we bring newer and younger players to the group, this is a really good way to start the game!
Thanks guys!
Very "Why are you booing me? I'm right." vibes on the "Go play Arena!" comment.
I have to say that the production of this video was very nice. The back and forth format was well done. Great video and very helpful 👍
Thanks !
"im playing slivers" "oh this is arch enemy now?"
This. I don't wait to see how good that sliver deck is.
Slivers will always be arch enemy...my God I truly hate that deck.
My sliver queen is the pride of my collection. Either goes fully ham or flops like a fish. No in between lol
It's always Archenemey, even why I play the group hug version of my Pheldagriff deck.
Excellent video! My playgroup has been wanting to start pre game conversations but haven't been sure what form that would take. Thank you for this useful guide!
We do need to factor players like Michael Lynch WILL always downplay his decks' level LMAO
“It’s an upgraded precon guys!”
“I’m just playing Lonis guys!”
Pukes out Urza, Kinnan and Koma.
Haha love the guy.
I tend to do that just because I tend to be humble. Which is part of the issue with trying to figure out power levels.
Our play group is going to adopt this.. Very important.. Joe its always good to see you.. Great episode.. Love and respect from Colorado!! To Joe and the Professor!
Im def. taking this video to my local game community. Really nice video!
Please do!
-what kind of deck you play?
-kess turbo adnaus
-sorry, can't play it here
-STFU I'VE ALREADY COMBO'ED OFF BEFORE STARTING
Oh man this is like couples counseling, but in magic.
Hey Joe. I don't know if you remember but we played a week or two ago. I played Azusa and failed the pregame conversation. I appreciate this video and will use it next time when playing to help gauge power.
This was a much needed video. Thank you.
You are so welcome!
Thank you guys so much for this video! me and my core group have had issues with powerlevels and rule zero when it comes to forming a pod or deck building. I am sharing this immediately and am gonna probably price my decks and stuff out so I can have more fun games and less feels bads.
Heres the thing, if you are feeling bad likely it's not there decks that are the problem -_-
"Upgraded my precon" really doesnt matter at this point... Precon decks have become seriously powerful in their vanilla state. Just ran into unaltered Prosper and since I hadnt followed the AFR decklists, I seriously thought that deck was custom made. Way too good and synergistic for a precon now imho. On the flip side, it is nice that new players can just buy a precon and not feel outmatched at the table.
Yeah, going just a little stronger than a precon, IE making it more focused, makes the game more fun. Going beyond that just ruins the game.
my friend only lost one time in our group with the unupgraded precon
Great video. Our group asks: A. how many turns to a win? B. how does your deck win? C. Is this a stax heavy game? These questions allow us to quickly assess power level, mana ramp, win efficiency etc. The turns to a win question shows us pretty quickly what the ramp and tutoring packages are. The deck win condition question also helps us to understand tutors and efficiency. And stax bc... stax. Good luck everyone!
Ahh yes, Those who wanna know how my deck plays. ZOMBIES with the infinites that were unintentionally built in I.E. any sac outlet, liliana, Untouched by death, and Rooftop Storm
Happy to see my bloom tender alter sleeve design on this video! Really important topic that everyone should discuss before a game, there's nothing more important in a game of commander than a ealthy environment.
Rule 0: Everyone asking "clarifying questions."
Parameters of rule 0: no one is allowed to get upset by these questions, and no one is allowed to ask their questions in a negative tone. If either is suspected, revert to "clarifying questions", rinse and repeat all until pod is satisfied.
Exceptions: Official tournaments are not there with fun at the forefront. Prior to staging a commander league or other competitive event, refer to beginning.
K.I.S.S. ; Keep It Stupid Simple. This is not to say it needs to be understood by the dumbest in the room. It's that these general guidance ideas allows diverse, yet specific, "rules" that any pod or event can use for their own and still not be paralyzed by indecision.
Awesome that you had Joe on Prof and extremely important topic! Friendships depend on this information :-).
6:40 Also make sure to not outright lie and say that your Urza deck has no infinite combos when you're running basalt and grim monolith + power artifact, as well as palinchron with high tide and phantasmal image
if your playing urza, I think everyone has an idea of what happens at this point. "There's no such thing as a low power urza deck" Josh Lee-Kwai from the command zone when trying to build a friendly urza deck for game knights (he gave up, it was just too good)
Great talk about expectations. This kinda discussion should happen more in commander. Could lead to less feel bads if everyone is on the same page as far as gameplay.
"How do you want to play Commander?"
Me: "I don't"
EDH is a terrible format, and I'm tired of pretending it isn't.
@@coltonkinder1424 ok
Is it really too much to ask to have a format with a predetermined number of rares and mythics? I really feel like that's how the game is designed. But NOPE.. you either play in singleton formats specifically designed for the biggest and largest spells to flourish or you play Pauper and get NOTHING and you'll like it!
@@VagabondTE Do you not have a playgroup that feels the same way?
@@coltonkinder1424 This should be repeated early and often. The only thing worse than Commander is the discourse surrounding it. It’s like a religion in which you must follow the sacred EDH scriptures in order to play it the “right” way.
*Sees joes hoodie*
Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well.
I hope commandzone takes notes about how the community feels about this and starts doing games on extra turns with a rule 0 convo
They actually do have the rule 0 discussion but they don't film it and include it. They play 1-2 games in advance to see how balanced the decks are before proceeding to the main event.
@@Dragon_Fyre my point is they need to show it as to get more people into doing it
I disagree with that addition to the show. Command zone episodes are about entertainment, not teaching people the game. Adding a boring repetitive convo to the start of each episode would not be a valuable addition IMO.
Game knights is about entertainment, thsts why I said extra turns which is more about gameplay
I agree that it's less of a highly edited show, but it's not a how to play show either. It's still gameplay entertainment so I think it would get old very fast.
Awesome vid guys. I just got my girl into magic. And shes been worried about playing outside the home cause she so knew i think sharing this vid with her will help with some of her anxiety playing outside the home. Thanks a bunch guys
You missed the most important part of the Rule zero:
Even if all the players do their best to have a conversation that explains the experience they want to get, they can still fail to communicate and they can misunderstand the potential of their decks.
If this happens don't be upset, don't get mad at ohters, learn and try to have better experience the next time.
Super cool to see the rule zero convo growing!! Especially here with the professor! Thanks 🙏
"your fun is worng and you can't sit with us" is this really what magic is becoming
We've always had boundaries at Magic. Please don't ever touch my cards vs You are free to read my cards. Dice for Life totals is fine vs not fine. The art on that token borders on porn vs cool tokens. Rule 0 simply says clear these sorts of things out before you play, especially if you arent using a judge. "Just call a judge" to get oracle text or deem a card marked vs not, doesnt work if there is no judge.
That's what the world is becoming.
@@FitGuyAZ577 That comes from every individual wanting their idea of fun to be accepted and facilitated by everyone else. Don't be part of that problem. Time to rediscover how to fit in with any group instead of demanding that every group fit itself to you.
I have always liked a two part comparison based on total cost as the primary (since MOST Cedh decks cost quite more than a casual version) as well as a "is there an infinite combo or a one turn wincon" tag to the deck. If the deck has the potential to win in a turn but requires lots of moving pieces and that win con is usually late game (turn 10-15 or later) then that is a value win con too. This has helped me with decks to allow everyone to have a fair time at the table.
Can’t believe these guys taught us about consent under the guise of commander
This was great, I remember and older video from the professor about power level discussions, this video seems much better and these questions will lead to great results
If a player is playing an obviously overpowered build in my pod I always tell them don't be upset when you get targeted or ganged up on. Cause its gonna happen.
I like how this was a topic yesterday on "i hate your deck" and now you uploaded a video with Joe about rule 0.
I never make a deck that has the number one goal of winning. I focus on the themes and memes. So my pirate deck has voracious greatshark as it’s only counterspell 👀; even if I hae better counterspells available to me.
Excellent take on la règle du jeu by Jeff Daniels and Joe - the kitchen table group I love to play with is very easygoing on mulligans, mainly so all of us have fun. Would be interesting to simply have that convo in other settings, which I thought was just not a thing. And that hooded sweatshirt...*chef's kiss*
Also it feels like forcing people through Rule 0 to shell out their gameplan before a game even starts can lead to incredibly feelsbad moments.
Its going to give the other players pre-conceived notions about target focus. Someone might be unfairly deleted from the game in a 3v1 scenario that they were doomed to encounter before the game even started because the other players didn’t like the deck when it was explained in this “Rule 0” pre-game
I feel as long as the players are using threat assessment and table politics this should not be an issue. Just because someone talks about having something nasty in the deck doesn't mean the table hyper focuses them. If they are behind on lands or having a rough start that wouldn't be in the spirit of commander to rush them down because of the pregame talk. There should be constant social interactions throughout the game. The real reason we are all playing the game is to have a good time :)
You are assuming nobody has intercation in thier decks and the variance of things like explosive early turns doesn't make people's focus change.
@@albertoftw The people who "need" Rule 0 like described in this video tend to run suboptimal decks that don't play a lot of interaction. So, yes, I'm assuming they aren't running enough interaction.
The average EDH player isn't that good at building decks, and typically won't have an established collection with which to build a deck from.
We're starting a new playgroup later this month.
I still had the 2019 precons and upgraded them through a budget upgrade guide, so I hope they all come out at a similar power level.
Can't wait to finally experience my first Commander game myself.
I have a very cheap exile tribal Yorion deck that would get wrecked in competitive, but whenever I play it everyone hates me. 😢
Thanks Proff! I've been going through your "Is it worth it to buy X" commander precons from the past year or so, so I can help a friend who's interested in trying magic for the first time, and trying to find a good precon for them to pick up cheaply.
Also, enjoy this vid, enjoy Joe's 'I Hate your Deck,' and the ep of it where you and Kyle were on.
Both of you keep up the great work!
So, I just hand my opponents my deck list? That's actually easy enough.
This is one of the best video this channel has ever produced. It should be play before any new playgroup is formed or a new member is added.
Rule zero is like consent; so, sadly, people are gonna fuck up rule zero.
I have been watching for years, and helped quite a bit by your reviews and information. I'm a fan. But this video, might very well be the most useful thing I have seen on this channel. Great job guys.
How ironic
Very important video, thank you for that. There isn't enough pregame talk overall, especially in LGS. I always want to know what every deck wants to accomplish, because otherwise all information I have is their commander and there have been many times where I've really hated on specific decks during the game because I thought they might go off anytime when in reality they were more janky than expected. I also love the fact that I Hate Your Deck includes rule 0 talks now :) Good job, guys!
“You might not be able to play your deck.” This statement exemplifies everything wrong with what EDH has become. If you can’t stand losing to the point that you will be salty for the rest of the night or don’t like when your deck gets dunked on then maybe playing games isn’t the hobby for you. Maybe try model building.
EDH discourse has become insufferable. I hope the bubble bursts sooner rather than later.
Everthing that's wrong with EDH?? Maybe if you continue playing a deck that people in your playgroup don't enjoy playing against then maybe play another deck once in a while how is that unreasonable?
Again EDH is a social casual format is not always about just YOU or I is about maximizing EVERYONES good time. There's other formats for what you are suggesting
The key is to find the players that love the experience you want to have.
I used to have a Mina and Denn MLD deck, the kind that cycled MLD frequently because it didn't hurt me. Understandably not everyone wants to play that experience, but when I asked a new playgroup, sometimes I would have them all pull out decks they think can get under or over what I am doing and we all have a blast.
Other times I play purphoros goblins, because hey, that's fair magic right?
This is completely misunderstanding the point of rule 0 entirely, which is the biggest problem of EDH being the most popular mtg format at the moment. No three players are forced to play against a stax/mld/handlock/etc. if that's not the experience they're looking for, whether at an LGS or your common playgroup. If you don't like to play different strategies and/or adapt to different player types when it's being discussed, maybe playing games isn't the hobby for you either. Maybe try model building.
@@Seanr670 Imagine a game of basketball where a player didn't like the fact that he didn't get any rebounds because he was shorter than the another player. I don't know of any reasonable reality where we would suggest the tall player to "not get rebounds" or "is not allowed to play with us because we're not having fun".
But in EDH this is what Rule 0 has become. I don't dislike the intent behind Rule 0. Please, in your playgroups have discussion amongst friends but at the same time it is not an excuse to exclude others because of your personal preference of how Magic should be played. We all know monsters who play mill decks. But hey it's what they like to play so let them play it. We as a group should not decide that we don't like viable and legal aspects of the game and expect others to buy/build a new deck to accommodate.
And honestly, most games are won and lost by misplays. Yes, decks can fall into good and bad categories but if you really look at "feel bad losses" you would probably find that most players didn't play optimally/misread board states/made bad deals, etc.
And hey, mana screw is a thing too.
What most players need to do is learn to play around other strategies. If someone keeps showing up with the same deck it shouldn't be too hard to shut them out of the game. It's how the game works. No one's decklist is the Gospel and someone shouldn't have to not play with their toys because someone else has decided they "don't like them".
Shared on two of my playgroup pages... folks need to be reminded every once in a while.
The fact that this video needs to exist makes me very happy I never got into Commander. Sounds awful.
Very few of the issues in this video are exclusive to Commander. Power level differences, along with differing expectations for what kind of game you're playing, are a potential pain point of every non-tournament game.
@@johnromero6315 True but it doesn't stop Commander players from thinking they have a monopoly on "casual".
This is now the best Rule 0 guide on the internet.
Joe is the perfect guest for this. Absolutely brilliant.
Hate to be that person, but... Almost all of the power level issues would be solved if the rules committee actually used the ban list appropriately instead of as "signaling". I dislike rule 0 for rules discussion. The social stuff should come as a given in any game of multiplayer magic.
Simply not true, even if we ignore precons and below and CEDH, there's still a massive, nebulous pool of decks in between where some decks win on turn 4 and others on turn 10 if they draw well. I don't know if this can be reconciled even with hundreds of bans.
@@nicholashowie5829 The problem isn't that powerful cards exist, it's that some cards are so vastly powerful that they warp the game around them. Basically every player can afford Sol Ring but that doesn't mean the format is better for it being in. A turn 1 Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc can completely invalidate whatever rating you gave your deck in the pre-game talk - they can turn a deck that's normally a 5 into a 7, or a seven into an 8, etc. And the rules committee hides behind rule zero, saying "if you don't like the gameplay those provide, then rule 0 them". However, rule 0 makes it difficult to bring your decks to events, other stores, or anywhere outside your play group and have fun without having to also carry around a bunch of extra cards to swap in and out. So everyone just defaults to the published banned list, which is ineffective as I've said before.
@@Thyeggman the power level problem really isn't about good starting hands, if a table can't handle a player starting sol ring, then chances are the lucky players deck was too powerful in the first place, and this is usually due to a generally higher card quality than just starting sol ring. For example, my Animar deck isn't quite CEDH, but too strong for most casual tables, I usually win turn 5, no fast mana required. No deck that's actually a "6" is gonna win against that even with their turn 1 sol ring, arcane signet.
My point is that even banning the absolute best cards will have little impact on bringing power levels closer, save for lowering the CEDH ceiling a bit. There's just too many good cards that create impressive (oppressive?) combos. The issue with leaving power level issues to the RC in the first place is that ban lists typically only impact the highest level of play.
I love this interaction between different Magic the Gathering channels!
Videos like these make me feel blessed.
I generally just play with whoever, whenever.
Never really ended up in a situation where folks felt salty, and wishing they discussed ahead of time.
Even when some rando ends up running a turbo charged deck. It really just comes down to having fun with the social aspect.
You know the table talk, and goofing around.
Funny story.
One week I was just catching a in between round game of commander at draft. Well this kid comes up, and says "I do not have my deck on me. What power level are your decks?". We look at him and say "we don't know". He got huffy 'n puffy, and kept asking. We essentially kept giving the same answer.
He eventually got really pissy, said "Well they seem to be low power", and stormed off.
First time I had seen someone pissed off over the "power level" of decks 😅
I never thought so in depth about this before, but I get it and personally I do a lot of these things already. One of the biggest things I've noticed with my playgroup is the understating of a deck, because I am usually straight forward with my explanation, but others really don't say much about it or say "its not THAT good"
My friend who's still pretty green in Magic plays arena to practice. So that ending was actually spot on advice
LOL the Jeff Daniels and Chris Hemsworth comment at the end had me dying 😂
These talks are essential for our group, we have three levels: beloved precon, modified custom decklist, and CEDH. We need to know who grabbed what and that no one has the house-banned cards.
Fantastic video y'all, you hit many points that I've not seen other content creators cover, and in great detail!
I loved this video, inspiring and educating.
Will you make one about in-game discussion such as creating pacts, breaking them and other things I can't even imagine at this point in time?
Love the video. Rule 0 discussions are just what is needed to ensure good times. No one likes getting shut out of a match up and magic is always better when the games are close.
and let's hope that tire 1 con will move some of the things that need to happen in commander so it will be a real formant that everyone can have fun while playing it
2:55 that Bloom Tender art, lol, just genius