I just had to pause the video to say this. I appreciate that you point out the sources for every image you throw up on screen. I understand why many channels don't do this but this is a small touch that takes a bit more effort and it's great to see.
Here's a video topic. How did Smaug successfully sack Erebor, after all Thror arrived at Erebor because of their war with the dragons so presumably Dragons chasing them down would be in their minds and the first thing they would have done would be to establish weapons, defences and military doctrines to repel dragons. Which they probably already had as the war of the dwarves and dragons lasted years involving who knows how many dragons, yet Smaug a young dragon was singlehandedly capable of destroying the kingdom in an afternoon. Why did all of the dwarves preparations fail?
It’s said that Smaug was the last of the great dragons. Dwarves probably only fought smaller cold wingless drakes. Also all known great dragons were slain by humans. Dragons are killed with bravery, not with strength of arms. It’s poetic.
I wonder if part of it could have been due to greed. At the time the dwarves had established such wealth, they became so active in mine that they became complacent. The idea of a dragon attacked them probably wouldn't have crossed their minds. As, they, despite being driven away, did enough damage to the point where they wouldn't have suspected they wouldn't be a threat. It was all from a place of pride, greed, and arrogance that caused their downfall. Plus, Smaug was way greater than any of those cold drakes they encountered, that he made light work of them. Why, we can learn that we must never let pride get the best of us, as it can help cause our downfall. We must always stay humble even in times of uncertainty.
It was shock and awe. Because of speed, strength and size, Smaug has a bigger edge. Most of the dragons in the dragon war were likely cold drakes (can’t breath fire). As for his attack “he first landed upon the mountain before going down the slopes and setting the woods on fire. When the dwarves came running out of the front gate Smaug killed them all before turning his attention to the men of Dale, also killing most of their warriors including Girion, Lord of Dale (but his wife and child safely fled to Lake-town. Returning to the mountain, he crawled into the front gate and left no dwarf he found alive.” The Rankin bass films shows it quite well. He flanks them and traps them.
"True evil is never destroyed by good, only resisted until evil destroys itself, any good that destroys evil will inevitably become just as evil in its place."
In the Hobbit and the LOTR, every time the Enemy’s plans and weapons backfire, you have to think about the Silmarillion and the chapters explaining the creation of the world. It all started with Eru singing for the Eldars and inviting them to join in. At some point, Melkor started to rebel and wanted to impose his own themes. These were dissonants and they threw the other Eldars into confusion. But then Eru would stand up and launch a new note that would reconcile Melkor’s theme with Eru music. At the very end, Eru tells Melkor that while he may have thought he was acting on his own will, in fact it was all part of Eru grand plans. Sauron accidentally helping to defeat Smaug is an exemple of this. - And there are lessons in this for real life. Think of all the positive things (courage, resilience, invention, charity, forgiveness, love, etc.) that would not exist if we lived in a world without challenges and evil.
For some reason I suspect Sauron *knew* the details regarding the map, but he just didn't care. After all, Thrain wasn't going anywhere and how often do you break into dark lord's fortress? Besides, even if somehow dwarves regain the map (and the key), the're going to annoy Smaug, not Sauron anyway. Even better, dragon's death could pave the way for goblin takeover... which almost happened. Win-win-win for Sauron.
True, because Thrain had the map still doesn't mean sauron didn't see it. Maybe he'll be a "cheaper" prisoner if you let the crazy guy keep his belongings. And yes, gandalf really did the unorthodox move of sneaking into a dungeon, or intentionally being captured or however he did it. Even if sauron knew the entity that is Gandalf was at play in the world, that's a curve ball still. It's fine to let your prisoner keep his map, and it's crazy to expect a wizard to take it from him
Technically I suspect all the belongings of the captive dwarf were checked....after all as we learn in Lotr the Orcs in Cirith Ungol, had orders to search any captives...though in that later situation there was some sort of procedure: "Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'" More likely Sauron knew or understood the purpose of those things like the map and key but knew that they would not be useful to his own goals so he just left them with the prisoner....the whole purpose of capturing Thrain was to reclaim one of the Seven Rings and he did.
The dragons were created by Morgoth weren't they? As long as Smaug was alive Sauron would hope to use him. Losing such a powerful potential ally wasn't a win
@@AdiscretefirmAnd how reliable were they? Glaurung: unruly and lazy. Ancalagon: torpedoed immediately. Smaug: also lazy. Scatha: butchered by ordinary guy. Those guys were good enough for "destroy everything" Morgoth, but Sauron? I doubt it.
As always. funnily enough you can imo also call that total lack of empathy. sauron can only see the world from his viewpoint. he thinks, that other people think like him and from that he takes assumptions.
I’ve always wondered: What if Numenor survived? What if Ar Pharazon turned back or Manwe looked on Tar Palantir and took pity? A good or evil, Numenor would be a massive change to the second and Third age. Would Gondor (besides Pelagir and Dol Amorth) and Arnor ever exist? Would they finally unite against Sauron and destroy him and the ring even? Would Sauron use the Numenorians as his new shock troops and conquer Middle Earth? Would Eru allow that? A speculative video could be very in depth.
I believe Sauron's plan was to seize control of Númenor after Ar-Pharazôn died in the invasion attempt and then use it against the Elves in Middle-Earth and then take the rest of the continent. What he didn't expect was that the attempted invasion of Valinor would result in Eru destroying Númenor. If Sauron had turned Númenor against the Elves in Middle-Earth and manipulated the former to attack Middle-Earth first then who knows how far things would have gotten. Personally, I think at some point the Valar or Eru would have taken some action to deal with Sauron directly.
@@istari0Or Manwe would assemble the host of the West again. Although, maybe that wouldn’t happen as then it would seem as if free peoples of middle Earth are incapable.
Númenor is modeled after the great bronze age empires. If you think about the bronze age empires, they were pretty unstable, as they were just a bit too top-heavy organizationally (i.e. the collapse of old egypt after the construction of the great pyramids), or too loosely organized with no real bonds between groups (i.e. the fall of ancient Mycenae in Greece), too reliant on resources aquired by trade (supposedly the great bronze age collapse was partially caused by lack of tin), and way more vulnerable to invasion by "uncivilized" people than they had ever imagined in their peak (another cause of the bronze age collapse). Any of these could happen to Numenor. The durability of the later kingdoms of Men in Tokien was due to their greater focus on individual virtues and valor rather than focus on the highest, greatest feats of the civilization which is prone to corruption over the generations.
@@benjaminblack91 "the collaps of egypt after the construction of the great pyramids" What collaps? The pyramids were built roughly 2600 BC. Egypt collapsed about 2500 years later 30 BC. Todays so called "stable" empires mostly do not even exist for 500 years, and certainly not for 2500. So there is no reason to call Egypt "unstable" from todays perspective, quite the opposite. Yes, the hight of power was much earlier than 30 BC - most historians agree that the decline started with the death of Rameses III, but much much later than the after the pyramids were finished- You are talking nonsense
and btw: Egypt was one of the few Empires to survive the bronze age collapse. The theory is that the extreme drought did not hit Egypt as hard as its neighbours.
Sauron might not have been able to read the map of Thrain, so why bother about a blank piece of paper from that mad dwarf that lives in your dungeon? In the end, against all odds, what little good was left in Middle Earth prevailed against Saurons greater strength and grand invasion plan - veeery unlikely meetings and veeeery unlikely characters contributed to his downfall - and that unlikeliness fascinates us and gives us hope until the end.
I don't think it was an accident, I think Sauron fully intended to use the dwarves to kill Smaug. The idea of an alliance between Sauron and Smaug only makes sense in hindsight with the knowledge that Sauron would in the end fail in his plans. But if you think about what Sauron ultimately wanted to achieve, Smaug would have been a massive headache for him sooner or later. The dwarves of Erebor weren't a major threat in the long term and the men of Dale could be corrupted and controlled, but Smaug would never submit to Sauron. Smaug is a force of chaos and destruction, a selfish and vain creature who can unleash a hurricane of fire and death at a moments notice anywhere around Middle Earth just because someone disturbed his beauty sleep.
That's a good point. It definitely seems more likely that Sauron would view Smaug and Durin's Bane more as potential rivals than allies, but I hadn't considered he was trying to use the dwarves to kill the dragon.
@@Disgruntled_Gruntbut saron uses a army of durins bane when there was many of them, it makes more sense smug would make some sort of alliance with saron
@@user-is3dy7rp2eno he very well did fuckign not use an army of balrogs, morgoth did and the difference between morgoth and sauron is akin to comparing a lit candle to the sun. Don’t comment if you are too ignorant to know what you are talking about
Sauron abilty to control or dominate Smaug may be theoretical, but I am more inclined to believe he could do it....but it must be said that Sauron best tool for dominating creatures, controlling their minds and wills, is the One Ring, but he has great mental powers and he can project his will across thousands of minds and across vast distances.....but obviously this control is nore foolproof and not total...and the immediate control is only when Sauron shifts his will and attention for that purpose. Sauron is immensely powerful being....the dragons would be still not nearly as powerful to actually pose any threat to Dark Lords...though obviously the dragons can be highly independent as even Glaurung Morgoth's first dragon defied his master's orders at times. Alliance or any other way of gaining Smaug's allegiance is also possible.
The One Ring was trying to escape the cave. It got away from Gollum, and the most likely being to find it would have been a goblin. From there, it was hoping to make its way to Mordor, probably betraying the goblin bearer or several bearers in succession.
"Prison pocket"... yeah... that crossed my mind as well, but I didn't have a nice term for what I was thinking. Scroll tube? I shudder at the though of the key.
I think it would be harder to find a key concealed in a luxuriant dwarf beard than in a prison pocket. Although his diabolical minions probably searched every orifice. LOTR is such a monumental work that it almost has its revisionist historians. 😂
Thrain was captured by Orcs, who had no idea who he was. They probably treated him abominably, and by the time he got to Dol Guldur for interrogation, he would've already been in rough shape. In the dungeons, Sauron sent someone to look him over -- he wouldn't be personally torturing every captive his minions took. Whoever it was took the ring, by which time Thrain could not even remember his own name, as Gandalf attested. As far as his torturer knew, this was a random Dwarf who had come upon a ring. The map of the Lonely Mountain was of no real interest, just a generic regional map. He could've had no idea about the Moon Runes that talked about the key and the secret entrance -- not even Gandalf (or even Sauron, his peer) knew about those. Only Elrond recognized them, and they could only be read at a specific time. Even the key was just a random key of no real import or interest, probably one of many possessions Thrain had with him. In the torturer's zeal for the ring (Sauron let it known he was looking for rings), he disregarded all the rest. Once he had the ring, Sauron would've wanted more information about this "random Dwarf," but by the time they returned to Thrain's cell he was beyond further interrogation, though they probably tried. In the meantime, Thrain Could have hidden the map and key in some dark corner of his cell (maybe finding a space between two stones, as a Dwarf might).
Hi Darth! I recently watched a fan edit of The Hobbit movie which cuts out a lot of the "extra stuff" and trims it down to only what was in the books. It was done pretty well, but honestly, I like Azog as a secondary antagonist and Legolas as a bonus character. They add extra intrigue and fun scenes. I hope I'm not alone in this opinion.
Yeah Smaug works as antagonist in the book but he doesn't show up until the last third and then gets killed before the grand finale. So he is very suboptimal as an antagonist in a movie. That's why Jackson needed another antagonist and went for Azog. Azog is crucial to the movies and can't be left out. But he could've been done much better imo.
I think a much better choice of antagonist would be actually Bolg, son of Azog! This would give additional motivation to th villain....Bolg being son of Azog who was killed by Dwarves....motive of revenge....and that coincidentally is also in part why the Orcs attack in book, the rage and anger especially with deaths of Great Goblin, and Bolg is actually the one who leads the forces of Orcs/Goblins during Battle of Five Armies in book!!! Bolg son of Azog would have inherited this feud with the Dwarves...Azog murdered Thrór, Dain and the Dwarves kill Azog in revenge, Bolg comes with his own retaliation against the Dwarves and so on and on....I think that Azog in the films should have been dead, shown only in the flashbacks, while his son Bolg would be THE nemesis for Thoring's company...this would be much closer to the book, and fidelity to source material in this regard would have paid off. Additionally.....Bolg and his bodyguards are actually the ones who take down Thorin in book!!!! So basically it's full circle.....the familial connection of Bolg and Azog would allow to explore some interesting dynamic in a villain :)...obviously the orc chief in the book wants not only revenge on the Dwarves...but also wealth and power....they want to "win dominion of the north" and want that sweet piece of Smaug's treasure hoard :). Bolg unites all the warring different clans and tribes and marches down from Mount Gundabad....that would be perfect solution. The extra stuff...if they covered the lotr appendices would have worked with less changes and alterations, this way the story would make way more sense and flowed more naturally! In The Hobbit book we have two references to Azog: "Your grandfather Thror was killed, your remember, in the mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin." ... "Bolg of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria" Bolg is the one element that the movies could have build upon...he is quite strong chieftain: "The Wargs came ravening and down came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel." Adding Azog into the story didn't help much...when they already had Bolg there. And Azog motivation in the movies falls flat...it's basically he just wants to wipe out the line of Durin...just because.... :). In Lotr appendices also the connection between Bolg and Azog is highlighted: "For the Orcs came down upon Erebor as soon as they heard of the return of the Dwarves; and they were led by Bolg, son of that Azog whom Dáin slew in his youth." And voila!
@@fantasywind3923 Yes, Bolg as main antagonist would be more lore-accurate. But I guess Jackson didn't want the audience to feel sympathy for an orc who's father got killed.
One recurring theme in Tolkein is that hubris and pride leads to destruction; aka. pride comes before a fall. It is not weakness that kills evil, but evil's own pride that is its own undoing.
"Your father knew, that if Sauron, ever got his hands on this key, he'd - take it away. He'd be DAMNED if he'd let any damn dark lord get their hands on this key, so he hid it in the only place he could..."
Basically the servants of Sauron failing to relieve Thrain of the map and key. Is the failing of the first stone that would start the avalanche that would be the successful recovery of the lonely mountain and dale. Creating two mighty kingdoms in the north to act as a bulwark against Sauron's northern arm of his pincer attack during the war of the ring. Plus allow for the ring to be found and later destroyed too.
It always puzzled me even when reading the Hobbit, how Thrain could have held onto the map and key after being captured. The orcs who captured Frodo stripped him to his skin. Perhaps Thrain hid them "elsewhere"...
Tbh, who would expect them to: break into the dungeon, take the secret map and key, find Thorin, make an expedition, kill a dragon even with an army, let alone with a single arrow. Just as Sauron didnt expect them to destroy the one ring, he didnt expect Smaug to die so easily. It was win win win win situation for Sauron if anything happened other than Smaug being killed off so fast. Even if he died, if he killed a bit more of dwarves and humans, goblins would have settled lonely mountain. Sauron just took a couple of 0.01% chance Ls and lost
I'm going to note that if the One Ring had remained in Gollum's cave, there is the possibility that it would have never resurfaced. I'd be curious as to what you think would have happened if that had been the case!
Like they say at the council of Elrond, even if the Ring were tossed into the sea, Sauron would still win. He would still gather armies and whittle down the Free peoples via attrition and eventually invasion.
Tolkien must have kinda hated gold. Whenever someone is bynamed "the golden", he is no good guy. ▪︎Glaurung (dragon) ▪︎Ar-Pharazon (man) ▪︎Smaug (dragon).
Tolkien in his texts points out the 'evil tendencies' most oftne associated with gold and so the titles usually are given to those vainglorious who flaunt the wealth and rich and this vanity as gold is beautiful, it is a mark of status. In metaphysical sense the gold is said to be element most likely to be tainted with corruption and sense of greed it inspired. "It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)" Tolkien also mentioned that not all gold is automatically evil or pure evil. It's about what it's used to make and how it's used: "Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)" And obviously gold as thing of beauty and wealth, is also shown to be fascinating to the 'good peoples' too, Noldor apparently loved gold (while Teleri prefer silver).
Oversight? That's a shotgun-blast plot hole is what that is. Sauron had a royal dwarf in his possession for presumably weeks or longer, yet totally oopsied on the spoiling of said royal prisoner? Now...if the Dark Lord had hucked all non-essentials into a chest and Gandalf took them that might have made sense.
IMHO: A flaw in Tolkien's logic. Sauron and/or his minions probably wouldn't just let his prisoner keep those items, taking them when they took the ring.
True fact - Thorin Oakenshield was actually a very distant ancestor of Paul Oakenfold. The name was altered sometime in the 5th Age when the family shield got run over by a bulldozer. Hence Paul Oakenfold's somewhat odd, dwarfish features and love of gold & money.
Sauron's plans involving Smaug as laid down in the Unfinished Tales from Gandalf's musings seem believable: ""I was very troubled at that time," he said, "for Saruman was hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us. "You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'" The Unfinished Tales, Quest of Erebor so Smaug would be very useful alive. In any case the meaning of the map and key would not have immediately meant that this could lead to dragon's downfall....because obviously the value of that information, about a secret entrance to the Mountain would not have been in itself posing a danger to any of Sauron's plans...the Lonely Mountain in any case was held securely by the dragon for well over hundred years...the things were in any case safe with the prisoner in the pits so there was no point in actively taking them or destroying on the first glance. Of course later on Sauron had his minions do procedure of securing all things belonging to a prisoner :). "Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'"
I'm of the consideration that perhaps Thrain hid the key wrapped in the map in his um..."Prison Wallet"... if you know what I mean. ;) No doubt he realized that there was no sense trying this with the Ring, because Sauron could easily detect its presence. I find it wonderful how Tolkien managed to tie The Hobbit and The LotR so seamlessly together, considering they were initially two separate and distinct stories! Indeed, a union betwixt Sauron and Smaug would have had far more devastating consequences and no doubt, a very different outcome for the War.
never considered Sauron trying to rebuild Angmar, which also raises the question, when it was first founded were there any dwarves of the men of dale around to help stop that?
That one doesn't feel right. Why rebuild Angmar? It was founded to oppose Arnor. It succeeded. There really wasn't much in the North to speak of... doesn't really seem like there's be a point in it.
@@josephbenson6301 I know what you mean, but Darth Gandalf was the one here first saying Sauron may want to rebuilt. Ya sure, maybe after Gondor fell too, so he could have total dominion over Middle-Earth, but not before. Seems Arnor has good farm land too, Sauron did still need that.
@@josephbenson6301 why any reason to prepare a secure base or power center? Sauron eventually would have wanted to control the North either way....and there were still some enemies to deal with, Rivendell, Lindon...while the political situation would be different 'now' with the rebuilding attempt the goal would be different...in any case an organized center of power would be useful for later conquest and control of the area....Sauron wants to rule the world not some portions of it :). Eventually all lands even those insignificant would be under his control if he had his way...in any case the idea of rebuilding Angmar is mentioned in the texts of Tolkien...the Unfinished Tales: ""I was very troubled at that time," he said, "for Saruman was hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us. "You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'" The Unfinished Tales, Quest of Erebor By the time of the War of the Ring or period immediately before it and the hobbit events....Sauron no longer had any signficant force and very very few agents in the north....Sauron since the defeat of Angmar....Sauron was focusing almost entirely on Rhovanion and the southern lands...he controlled large portion of the southern Rhovanion through Dol Guldur. After defeat of Angmar the Eotheod tribes moved up to the upper vales of Anduin from which they repelled the remnants of Angmar's folk. Other than the tenuous control over the semi indepentent orc tribes and clans of Misty Mountains Sauron had no foothold in the further north. These regions were for long neglected by him...in any case Sauron always kept eye on his enemies, the Elves and the remaining Dunedain (and with that he always hoped for any news of the heirs of Isildur, hunting for any even though he ultimately had no sure information on them).
When the realm of Angmar was first established the historical situation was quite different, there were different polities and differe regional powers and there was different purpose....Angmar arose as a direct threat to the Numenoreans, the kingdom of Arnor, the Dunedain of the North were chief enemies of Sauron and so Angmar's sole purpose was their destruction....the other places like the north of Rhovanion were not as organized then (there would be loose tribes of Men living there, the first ancestors of the men of Dale would already live in the lands between Carnen and Celduin rivers but they would not be strong enough to pose any sort of threat or form united actual state or poltiical entity (it must be noted that the Dale arose as a local power when the Dwarves settled in the area)..back when the Angmar was first made the realm of the Witch-king was stretching on both sides of the Misty Mountains....it controlled the upper Vales of Anduin, near the sources of Great River and there were lots and lots of Orcs in the mountains....that is the Orcs when the Angmar was founded started to attack the Dwarves...the Longbeards for long held the Misty Mountains to be THEIR territory and we hear in the timeline that around the time when the Angmar was established....the Dwarves of Moria were under attack: "circa 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains.... The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar." The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix B, The Tale of Years: The Third Age "It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]" The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain
@@josephbenson6301 Actually... you have Rivendell and Lindon in the North, two major strongholds of those pesky Elves. And importantly, both were full of refugees of Beleriand, more potent enemies than the Silvan Elves of Thranduil and Galadriel's realms. Meanwhile, down South you had Gondor at strife with other Men, keeping it somewhat occupied for the time being. Sauron was a bit blinded by his hatred of the Numenoreans, so he fixated on them. He really should have taken the last of the Elves out first, and then played the long game in repopulating the North with Men allied to him. After awhile, he'd have surrounded Gondor on all fronts, and would have taken them out.
I have often thought how things might go in the Third Age for Smaug if The One Ring had been destroyed by Isildur. Well, Smaug would have been a major power, little, if anything on Middle Earth could threaten him. Oh, Durin's Bane would awaken, and would become the new Dark Lord. This now leads to Erebor and Smaug would not have been killed! Nasty fate for folks on Middle Earth!
There is an even More direkt Help of Sauron. As said in the Council of Elrond The One ring has a Will of his own. Conciderng that without the One Ring Smaug would have burned Bilbo to a Crisp Because he Would have Seen him Bilbo Couldnt have Spoken to the Thrush as You Said and so Bard Couldnt have Shot Smaug. Therefore the Will of the One Ring wich is an Extension of Saurons Will or at Least a Produkt of Sauron giving the Ring a Will of his Own Caused the Ring to Switch from Gollum to Bilbo as Gandalf said to Frodo after Bilbos 111th Birthday Party and therefore Helped to Kill Smaug. therefor Sauron has Helped the Quest for Erebor two times .
Sauron accidentally helped kill Smaug by having his orcs and goblins waylaying travellers in the Misty Mountains. This allowed Bilbo to find the ring in the first place.
Hey here’s a video topic: Can the elves become Maiar or as powerful as them. At first it might seem a little stupid because all the Ainur took part in the song of Illivatar so they can’t become Maiar in that sense but they are immortal. Part of the spiritual world and extremely tied to Arda
To answer your question, Glorfindel is said to have been empowered greatly after his return to life. He was already one of the most powerful Elves before so there's a good chance he might've been close to a Maia in power level.
Yea he was a powerful elf but in my view the difference between Maia and a powerful elf is that the Ainur participated in the song of Illuvatar. It is said that when Arda is destroyed and remade again, all the children of Illuvatar will participate in the song of Illuvatar. That will be there will be a large number of Ainur and this might have happened before in Arda history. So maybe the Ainur are already larger in number than we think. Maybe outnumbering the children of Illuvatar if we count those with Eru himself. What is your thought about this?@@DarthGandalfYT
I always thought it was high unrealistic that Thrain got to keep the key and map. Who let's a prisoner keep anything, but a bare amount of clothing? Further... it's not like Sauron OR his agents there in Dol Guldur wouldn't have recognized a map of the Lonely Mountain. The guards just missed it? Yeah... yeah... that's the ticket.
3:44 Gandalf's visit to Bilbo is a bit of a mystery. To say he was "his favorite" Hobbit when Bilbo in fact was a child when Gandalf was in the shire last doesn't make a lot of sense. It may be that Tolkien couldn't think of a good excuse as to why Gandalf picked Bilbo out to be the burglar, but somehow he worked the story around Bilbo and foreshadowed Gollum knowing who had the ring in LOTR.
The ring given to the Dwarves is what lead them to dig deeper and greedily, which Sauron knew would cause in-fighting at the least and provoke dragons and wars at best. Weakening men and dwarves and elves, all without himself using any resources to do so. That's why the rings were given to the dwarves. Sauron did nothing and caused the complete collapse of two major cities, and set back the progress of men, dwarves, and elves, all the while Sauron was amassing his legions and growing exponentially.
I wouldn't be suprised if the Orcs just wanted him to have a death that looked accidental or something so they could blame it on the elements and get some fresh meat..... that they wouldn't have to bother unwrapping later.
I mean the Orcs had specific orders and procedure! "Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'"
So, in the Peter Jackson films, when we see Gandalf and Thrain's interaction, it is a change in the timeline? It would have to be, right? As Thorin possessed the key before the Dwarves met up initially at Bag End, as he produces the key then to the company whilst at the table.
Yes, the movie basically fused two events together. The first is Gandalf infiltrating Dol Guldur and finding Thrain with the map and key, wich happens before the Quest for Erebor. The second one is Gandalf with the rest of the white council and possibly Elves from Lorien attacking Dol Guldur and driving Sauron out, wich does happen during the Quest for Erebor.
So Gandalf sent Bilbo and 13 dwarves to occupy a dangerous, fire-breathing dragon while he rallied the White Council to assault Dol Guldur and the Necromancer. With friends like him...
You'd also think the super evil guys would have protected their one vulnerability better by defending Mount Doom, but Sauron's pride preventing him from imagining someone would want to _destroy_ the Ring instead of use it. Same goes for him failing to imagine someone being able to break into Dol Guldur and spring Thror.
@@General12th Sauron was correct with Mt Doom though. No one could willingly destroy the Ring, and installing a door on the cracked side of a volcano seems like a security hazard
@@Crafty_Spirit considering also that the frequent eruptions of Orodruin would destroy or block the entrance (as well as the Sauron's road leading to it) and the fact that there would be under normal circumstances....thousands of Orcs surrounding the mountain....I would say that he had legitimate reasons to believe the Mountain is secured without any special additional measures...it was in the very heart of his realm. Sauron wanted that door because he himself used the Sammath Naur, the Cracks of Doom for his "sorceries and forgings". Orodruin is not just any volcano, it was useful for his purposes, and was positively saturated with his power.....the whole thing comes down to the problem....if Sauron used all his strength in defense of his realm instead of starting aggressive war,....nobody would be able to enter...but since he must go out into the world, send out his forces he pays less attention to attempts at entering his realm...in any case the borders are guarded still....that's how they managed to finalyl capture Gollum who was prowling about.
I have a question. If Sauron puts his cruelty, malice, and will to dominate all life into the ring, does it mean that Sauron´s cruelty, etc..., is destroyed together with the rings? Wouldnt it make sense that the destruction of the ring would "cleanse" Sauron´s soul? I think that this would have been a great idea for an alternative version of The new shadow, to have a cleansed spirit of Sauron/Mairon as someone helping the protagonists. It would certainly bring forth the idea that anyone is capable of redemption, even it if would be a rather involuntary redemption in Sauron´s case. However the clear issue is that the only way that the spirit of Sauron/Mairon would ever be able to help is by giving an idea how to create stuff, which is something that Tolkien would never write. Creating stuff, especially if it was an item made to give an edge in a conflict, or literally a weapon, is always a bad thing. Doubly so if it is a weapon that is more effective than the others, like was the case of the fire of Orthanc, or the Grond back in Lord of the Rings. But it would certainly be an interesting idea for a fan-fiction.
could Thraine not have used his "prison pocket" for the ring? I mean, I can see that. A Map and a key on the other hand, that is a lot to put into a prison pocket
Maybe he did hide the ring in his prison pocket but they found it anyway. And then figuered the map and key are not important beacause he did't hide it there.
Even if Bilbo had come along, and then gotten the ring...what if Smaug still got him, and turned him to ash, revealing the ring? What would Smaug have done with such power?
Depends if Smaug can resist the corruption of the ring or not, best case the ring gets added to his treasure pile and he doesn't mention it to Sauron, while still accepting whatever payment Sauron was giving him to help do his part to conquer middle earth. Worst case the ring increases Smaug's greed causing him to go after as much gold as he can find, eventually we get a dragon version of a ring wraith enslaved to Sauron's will.
Interesting video. I'll add another massive strategic advantage that Thorin's people retaking Erabor and the Northmen retaking Dale had. The alliance of Erabor and Dale held off the entire northern army in a long siege that lasted most of the War of the Ring. That meant the elves of Mirkwood were freed up to join forces with the elves of Lothlorien in assaulting and destroying Dul Goldor, and also the elves of Lothlorien were freed up to intercept an army attempting to bypass them and enter northern Rohan, which could have forced King Theodin to divert all or part of his army bound for the Pelenor Fields north to deal with an invasion of his own kingdom. An invasion that never happened as Dul Goldur's forces were split between 2 enemy forces and in a strategically hopeless position from the start. Surrounded on all sides by enemies, with only Moria left for any support, Dul Goldur was doomed to fall to the Men and Elves of the West. Unless the northern army could reach Mirkwood and become a factor along that front. All this means that while Gondor faced the toughest armies during the war, with the ability of Lothlorien and Mirkwood to keep Moria and Dul Goldor away from Rohan and Gondor, and the Rohirim's ability, with an alliance with the Ents of Fanghorn, to quickly defeat Isengard, Gondor had only allies to the north, and did not have to worry about invasion from that angle, so they could focus all their might on the south and east. The cosest thing to an enemy Gondor might have had other then that could have been the Dunlandings to the west, but they'd already surrendered to Rohand during the War with Isengard, and were already out of the war and thus no longer a threat. All these tactical advantages the Men of the West got from that one small thing. A great example of The Butterfly Effect being portrayed in fiction.
I always find it strange that Aragorn personally killed hundreds but that is ok because he is the GOOD GUY while Sauron didn't kill anyone (well once he was an eye) but he is the BAD GUY. Neither seemed that great a Guy. But then they don't exist so it doesn't matter.
I dunno man, Gandalf was captured and got his staff and sword back, and was then killed and still got his sword back... I don't think the author is keeping track...
It wasn't accidental. It was the authors will. And by the author I don't mean Tolkien. Everything that Sauron did was done to serve and improve upon the will of iluvatar.
If sauron didn't help kill smaug then smaug would have killed gloin after he was done with lake town, if smaug kills gloin then gloin never returns to train his son "Gimli" into such a formidable warrior, so at the battle of helms deep gimli wouldnt have the skill or knowledge to save Aragorn. There for Aragorn never comes up with the idea of drawing out the orcs from mordor resulting in frodo and sam failing the misson.
Well this is not "helping" in killing smaug.. Its the same to say that Gandalf helped Thorin get killed at the end of the quest, since it was Gandalf the orquestrator of the entire quest. Or that Sauron helped killing himself, since he made the ring, if he had'nt made it, there would be no ring to be destroyed at Mt. Doom. Accidents happens along the way.
Accidentally or purposefully? I doubt Smaug would have served Sauron. Smaug was more of a potential rival than ally. Dragon's served Morgoth. Sauron was no Morgoth.
Hubris has been the downfall to many, both good and bad. It is a constant theme throughout history, to think you've got all the angles figured out and no one is smarter than you and your Grand Plan. Or perhaps its just arrogance, Sauron believing himself above the rest of Man/Elf/Dwarf-kind and therefore, smarter and craftier than the them. Its always more complicated than one thing or another and more often is a combination or culmination of various forces or motivators that shape a character and their situation or event. Certainly being a Maiar had a signifiant part to play into Sauron's psyche as being superior to the rest of Middle Earth.
I just had to pause the video to say this.
I appreciate that you point out the sources for every image you throw up on screen. I understand why many channels don't do this but this is a small touch that takes a bit more effort and it's great to see.
Here's a video topic. How did Smaug successfully sack Erebor, after all Thror arrived at Erebor because of their war with the dragons so presumably Dragons chasing them down would be in their minds and the first thing they would have done would be to establish weapons, defences and military doctrines to repel dragons. Which they probably already had as the war of the dwarves and dragons lasted years involving who knows how many dragons, yet Smaug a young dragon was singlehandedly capable of destroying the kingdom in an afternoon. Why did all of the dwarves preparations fail?
It’s said that Smaug was the last of the great dragons. Dwarves probably only fought smaller cold wingless drakes. Also all known great dragons were slain by humans. Dragons are killed with bravery, not with strength of arms. It’s poetic.
Their ability to make effective weapons against dragons was clearly not as technically advanced as you assume they had.
Dale had weapons in the wind lances and black arrows and Erebor by its nature was a defensive position.
I wonder if part of it could have been due to greed. At the time the dwarves had established such wealth, they became so active in mine that they became complacent. The idea of a dragon attacked them probably wouldn't have crossed their minds. As, they, despite being driven away, did enough damage to the point where they wouldn't have suspected they wouldn't be a threat. It was all from a place of pride, greed, and arrogance that caused their downfall. Plus, Smaug was way greater than any of those cold drakes they encountered, that he made light work of them. Why, we can learn that we must never let pride get the best of us, as it can help cause our downfall. We must always stay humble even in times of uncertainty.
It was shock and awe. Because of speed, strength and size, Smaug has a bigger edge. Most of the dragons in the dragon war were likely cold drakes (can’t breath fire).
As for his attack “he first landed upon the mountain before going down the slopes and setting the woods on fire. When the dwarves came running out of the front gate Smaug killed them all before turning his attention to the men of Dale, also killing most of their warriors including Girion, Lord of Dale (but his wife and child safely fled to Lake-town. Returning to the mountain, he crawled into the front gate and left no dwarf he found alive.”
The Rankin bass films shows it quite well. He flanks them and traps them.
So, in a way, Sauron fell for want of a nail. Silly Sauron, he should've had Aulë teach him the importance of nails.
"True evil is never destroyed by good, only resisted until evil destroys itself, any good that destroys evil will inevitably become just as evil in its place."
@@TheOmegaXicor NAH, POEM DOEZN'T WORK, PLOT HOLE CENTRAL. SOUNDZ NiCE THOUGH
[NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]
In the Hobbit and the LOTR, every time the Enemy’s plans and weapons backfire, you have to think about the Silmarillion and the chapters explaining the creation of the world. It all started with Eru singing for the Eldars and inviting them to join in. At some point, Melkor started to rebel and wanted to impose his own themes. These were dissonants and they threw the other Eldars into confusion. But then Eru would stand up and launch a new note that would reconcile Melkor’s theme with Eru music. At the very end, Eru tells Melkor that while he may have thought he was acting on his own will, in fact it was all part of Eru grand plans. Sauron accidentally helping to defeat Smaug is an exemple of this. - And there are lessons in this for real life. Think of all the positive things (courage, resilience, invention, charity, forgiveness, love, etc.) that would not exist if we lived in a world without challenges and evil.
Well said. Thank you.
It is in darkness that light shines even brighter, so then is it the overcoming of sin that illuminates God's glory
For some reason I suspect Sauron *knew* the details regarding the map, but he just didn't care. After all, Thrain wasn't going anywhere and how often do you break into dark lord's fortress? Besides, even if somehow dwarves regain the map (and the key), the're going to annoy Smaug, not Sauron anyway. Even better, dragon's death could pave the way for goblin takeover... which almost happened. Win-win-win for Sauron.
True, because Thrain had the map still doesn't mean sauron didn't see it. Maybe he'll be a "cheaper" prisoner if you let the crazy guy keep his belongings.
And yes, gandalf really did the unorthodox move of sneaking into a dungeon, or intentionally being captured or however he did it. Even if sauron knew the entity that is Gandalf was at play in the world, that's a curve ball still. It's fine to let your prisoner keep his map, and it's crazy to expect a wizard to take it from him
Technically I suspect all the belongings of the captive dwarf were checked....after all as we learn in Lotr the Orcs in Cirith Ungol, had orders to search any captives...though in that later situation there was some sort of procedure:
"Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'"
More likely Sauron knew or understood the purpose of those things like the map and key but knew that they would not be useful to his own goals so he just left them with the prisoner....the whole purpose of capturing Thrain was to reclaim one of the Seven Rings and he did.
The dragons were created by Morgoth weren't they? As long as Smaug was alive Sauron would hope to use him. Losing such a powerful potential ally wasn't a win
@@AdiscretefirmAnd how reliable were they? Glaurung: unruly and lazy. Ancalagon: torpedoed immediately. Smaug: also lazy. Scatha: butchered by ordinary guy. Those guys were good enough for "destroy everything" Morgoth, but Sauron? I doubt it.
@@mateuszslawinski1990 yeah but they killed a bunch of elves and dwarves and terrorized the rest
Sauron's overwhelming arrogance bites him in the ass again!
As always. funnily enough you can imo also call that total lack of empathy. sauron can only see the world from his viewpoint. he thinks, that other people think like him and from that he takes assumptions.
Last time I was this early there were still the Trees in Valinor
I’ve always wondered: What if Numenor survived? What if Ar Pharazon turned back or Manwe looked on Tar Palantir and took pity? A good or evil, Numenor would be a massive change to the second and Third age. Would Gondor (besides Pelagir and Dol Amorth) and Arnor ever exist? Would they finally unite against Sauron and destroy him and the ring even?
Would Sauron use the Numenorians as his new shock troops and conquer Middle Earth? Would Eru allow that?
A speculative video could be very in depth.
I believe Sauron's plan was to seize control of Númenor after Ar-Pharazôn died in the invasion attempt and then use it against the Elves in Middle-Earth and then take the rest of the continent. What he didn't expect was that the attempted invasion of Valinor would result in Eru destroying Númenor. If Sauron had turned Númenor against the Elves in Middle-Earth and manipulated the former to attack Middle-Earth first then who knows how far things would have gotten. Personally, I think at some point the Valar or Eru would have taken some action to deal with Sauron directly.
@@istari0Or Manwe would assemble the host of the West again. Although, maybe that wouldn’t happen as then it would seem as if free peoples of middle Earth are incapable.
Númenor is modeled after the great bronze age empires. If you think about the bronze age empires, they were pretty unstable, as they were just a bit too top-heavy organizationally (i.e. the collapse of old egypt after the construction of the great pyramids), or too loosely organized with no real bonds between groups (i.e. the fall of ancient Mycenae in Greece), too reliant on resources aquired by trade (supposedly the great bronze age collapse was partially caused by lack of tin), and way more vulnerable to invasion by "uncivilized" people than they had ever imagined in their peak (another cause of the bronze age collapse).
Any of these could happen to Numenor. The durability of the later kingdoms of Men in Tokien was due to their greater focus on individual virtues and valor rather than focus on the highest, greatest feats of the civilization which is prone to corruption over the generations.
@@benjaminblack91 "the collaps of egypt after the construction of the great pyramids"
What collaps? The pyramids were built roughly 2600 BC. Egypt collapsed about 2500 years later 30 BC.
Todays so called "stable" empires mostly do not even exist for 500 years, and certainly not for 2500.
So there is no reason to call Egypt "unstable" from todays perspective, quite the opposite.
Yes, the hight of power was much earlier than 30 BC - most historians agree that the decline started with the death of Rameses III, but much much later than the after the pyramids were finished- You are talking nonsense
and btw: Egypt was one of the few Empires to survive the bronze age collapse. The theory is that the extreme drought did not hit Egypt as hard as its neighbours.
I didn’t want any necromancer or his orcs taking my map and key. So I stuck it up my @ss.
🤣🤣🤣
Sauron might not have been able to read the map of Thrain, so why bother about a blank piece of paper from that mad dwarf that lives in your dungeon?
In the end, against all odds, what little good was left in Middle Earth prevailed against Saurons greater strength and grand invasion plan - veeery unlikely meetings and veeeery unlikely characters contributed to his downfall - and that unlikeliness fascinates us and gives us hope until the end.
"Oft evil will shall evil mar." - Théoden
I don't think it was an accident, I think Sauron fully intended to use the dwarves to kill Smaug. The idea of an alliance between Sauron and Smaug only makes sense in hindsight with the knowledge that Sauron would in the end fail in his plans. But if you think about what Sauron ultimately wanted to achieve, Smaug would have been a massive headache for him sooner or later.
The dwarves of Erebor weren't a major threat in the long term and the men of Dale could be corrupted and controlled, but Smaug would never submit to Sauron. Smaug is a force of chaos and destruction, a selfish and vain creature who can unleash a hurricane of fire and death at a moments notice anywhere around Middle Earth just because someone disturbed his beauty sleep.
That's a good point. It definitely seems more likely that Sauron would view Smaug and Durin's Bane more as potential rivals than allies, but I hadn't considered he was trying to use the dwarves to kill the dragon.
@@Disgruntled_Gruntbut saron uses a army of durins bane when there was many of them, it makes more sense smug would make some sort of alliance with saron
@@user-is3dy7rp2eno he very well did fuckign not use an army of balrogs, morgoth did and the difference between morgoth and sauron is akin to comparing a lit candle to the sun. Don’t comment if you are too ignorant to know what you are talking about
Sauron abilty to control or dominate Smaug may be theoretical, but I am more inclined to believe he could do it....but it must be said that Sauron best tool for dominating creatures, controlling their minds and wills, is the One Ring, but he has great mental powers and he can project his will across thousands of minds and across vast distances.....but obviously this control is nore foolproof and not total...and the immediate control is only when Sauron shifts his will and attention for that purpose. Sauron is immensely powerful being....the dragons would be still not nearly as powerful to actually pose any threat to Dark Lords...though obviously the dragons can be highly independent as even Glaurung Morgoth's first dragon defied his master's orders at times. Alliance or any other way of gaining Smaug's allegiance is also possible.
@@user-is3dy7rp2e Beep boop, me like-y content.
The One Ring was trying to escape the cave. It got away from Gollum, and the most likely being to find it would have been a goblin. From there, it was hoping to make its way to Mordor, probably betraying the goblin bearer or several bearers in succession.
Your ‚prison pocket‘ hypothesis at the end makes more sense the longer you think about it 😂 also gave me a pretty good laugh 🙏🏻
"Prison pocket"... yeah... that crossed my mind as well, but I didn't have a nice term for what I was thinking.
Scroll tube?
I shudder at the though of the key.
I don't think that hiding place would work against a search by Orcs. With a Dwarf prisoner, that's probably where they look first.
I think it would be harder to find a key concealed in a luxuriant dwarf beard than in a prison pocket. Although his diabolical minions probably searched every orifice.
LOTR is such a monumental work that it almost has its revisionist historians. 😂
I think an Orc would search that particular orifice first.
Also don't forget that Bilbo used Sauron's ring to stay hidden from Smaug.
Tolkien originally did not intend the ring to be of Sauron's when initially writing the hobbit.
@@andrewklyce-mariscal1564 OK, but in the story he *actually published* Bilbo used Sauron's ring to stay hidden from Smaug.
@@andrewklyce-mariscal1564lol what about the published story
Thrain was captured by Orcs, who had no idea who he was. They probably treated him abominably, and by the time he got to Dol Guldur for interrogation, he would've already been in rough shape. In the dungeons, Sauron sent someone to look him over -- he wouldn't be personally torturing every captive his minions took. Whoever it was took the ring, by which time Thrain could not even remember his own name, as Gandalf attested. As far as his torturer knew, this was a random Dwarf who had come upon a ring.
The map of the Lonely Mountain was of no real interest, just a generic regional map. He could've had no idea about the Moon Runes that talked about the key and the secret entrance -- not even Gandalf (or even Sauron, his peer) knew about those. Only Elrond recognized them, and they could only be read at a specific time. Even the key was just a random key of no real import or interest, probably one of many possessions Thrain had with him.
In the torturer's zeal for the ring (Sauron let it known he was looking for rings), he disregarded all the rest. Once he had the ring, Sauron would've wanted more information about this "random Dwarf," but by the time they returned to Thrain's cell he was beyond further interrogation, though they probably tried. In the meantime, Thrain Could have hidden the map and key in some dark corner of his cell (maybe finding a space between two stones, as a Dwarf might).
That’s a great connection to make. Thanks for pointing it out.
This was very interesting and very informative, thank you !
Hi Darth!
I recently watched a fan edit of The Hobbit movie which cuts out a lot of the "extra stuff" and trims it down to only what was in the books. It was done pretty well, but honestly, I like Azog as a secondary antagonist and Legolas as a bonus character. They add extra intrigue and fun scenes. I hope I'm not alone in this opinion.
Yeah Smaug works as antagonist in the book but he doesn't show up until the last third and then gets killed before the grand finale. So he is very suboptimal as an antagonist in a movie. That's why Jackson needed another antagonist and went for Azog. Azog is crucial to the movies and can't be left out. But he could've been done much better imo.
I think a much better choice of antagonist would be actually Bolg, son of Azog! This would give additional motivation to th villain....Bolg being son of Azog who was killed by Dwarves....motive of revenge....and that coincidentally is also in part why the Orcs attack in book, the rage and anger especially with deaths of Great Goblin, and Bolg is actually the one who leads the forces of Orcs/Goblins during Battle of Five Armies in book!!! Bolg son of Azog would have inherited this feud with the Dwarves...Azog murdered Thrór, Dain and the Dwarves kill Azog in revenge, Bolg comes with his own retaliation against the Dwarves and so on and on....I think that Azog in the films should have been dead, shown only in the flashbacks, while his son Bolg would be THE nemesis for Thoring's company...this would be much closer to the book, and fidelity to source material in this regard would have paid off.
Additionally.....Bolg and his bodyguards are actually the ones who take down Thorin in book!!!! So basically it's full circle.....the familial connection of Bolg and Azog would allow to explore some interesting dynamic in a villain :)...obviously the orc chief in the book wants not only revenge on the Dwarves...but also wealth and power....they want to "win dominion of the north" and want that sweet piece of Smaug's treasure hoard :). Bolg unites all the warring different clans and tribes and marches down from Mount Gundabad....that would be perfect solution. The extra stuff...if they covered the lotr appendices would have worked with less changes and alterations, this way the story would make way more sense and flowed more naturally!
In The Hobbit book we have two references to Azog:
"Your grandfather Thror was killed, your remember, in the mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin."
...
"Bolg of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria"
Bolg is the one element that the movies could have build upon...he is quite strong chieftain:
"The Wargs came ravening and down came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel."
Adding Azog into the story didn't help much...when they already had Bolg there. And Azog motivation in the movies falls flat...it's basically he just wants to wipe out the line of Durin...just because.... :).
In Lotr appendices also the connection between Bolg and Azog is highlighted:
"For the Orcs came down upon Erebor as soon as they heard of the return of the Dwarves; and they were led by Bolg, son of that Azog whom Dáin slew in his youth."
And voila!
@@fantasywind3923 I love this idea. Lean into cycle of vengeance and how even our noble dwarf protagonists aren't immune to it!
@@fantasywind3923 Yes, Bolg as main antagonist would be more lore-accurate. But I guess Jackson didn't want the audience to feel sympathy for an orc who's father got killed.
I for sure agree Azog was a great addition to the movies. I can't fully agree on Legolas though.
One recurring theme in Tolkein is that hubris and pride leads to destruction; aka. pride comes before a fall. It is not weakness that kills evil, but evil's own pride that is its own undoing.
"Your father knew, that if Sauron, ever got his hands on this key, he'd - take it away. He'd be DAMNED if he'd let any damn dark lord get their hands on this key, so he hid it in the only place he could..."
Basically the servants of Sauron failing to relieve Thrain of the map and key. Is the failing of the first stone that would start the avalanche that would be the successful recovery of the lonely mountain and dale. Creating two mighty kingdoms in the north to act as a bulwark against Sauron's northern arm of his pincer attack during the war of the ring. Plus allow for the ring to be found and later destroyed too.
Thorin wasn't known as Oakenshield until battle for Moria. Cmon Evil Gandalf
The One Ring also helped quite a bit; another inadvertent assistance from Sauron
It always puzzled me even when reading the Hobbit, how Thrain could have held onto the map and key after being captured. The orcs who captured Frodo stripped him to his skin. Perhaps Thrain hid them "elsewhere"...
he probably kept the key and map hidden in his...
BEARD!
Not the beard!
Tbh, who would expect them to: break into the dungeon, take the secret map and key, find Thorin, make an expedition, kill a dragon even with an army, let alone with a single arrow.
Just as Sauron didnt expect them to destroy the one ring, he didnt expect Smaug to die so easily. It was win win win win situation for Sauron if anything happened other than Smaug being killed off so fast. Even if he died, if he killed a bit more of dwarves and humans, goblins would have settled lonely mountain.
Sauron just took a couple of 0.01% chance Ls and lost
I'm going to note that if the One Ring had remained in Gollum's cave, there is the possibility that it would have never resurfaced. I'd be curious as to what you think would have happened if that had been the case!
Like they say at the council of Elrond, even if the Ring were tossed into the sea, Sauron would still win. He would still gather armies and whittle down the Free peoples via attrition and eventually invasion.
as Sauron was getting stronger, the Ring was getting antsier, and eventually the orcs upstairs would've found it, even if were a thousand years later
Great video!
Smaug needs cuddles! Poor lizard, getting poked by little people.
Thrain totally suit cased that map and key prison style lmfao
Good triumphed over evil over something as simple as a single dwarfs prison pocket.
I BEEN TRYINA GET ANY ONE TO GIVE THEY INFO ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK WOULD HAPPEN IF DURINS BANE WOKE IN THE LONELY MOUNTAIN INSTEAD.
In short, Sauron accidentally turned Smaug into the most profitable side quest in fantasy history.
"Prison pocket." Omg. You went there. Lol
Tolkien must have kinda hated gold. Whenever someone is bynamed "the golden", he is no good guy.
▪︎Glaurung (dragon)
▪︎Ar-Pharazon (man)
▪︎Smaug (dragon).
he hated wealth hording
Now we know what Tolkien would have thought of ther Emperor of Man
Tolkien in his texts points out the 'evil tendencies' most oftne associated with gold and so the titles usually are given to those vainglorious who flaunt the wealth and rich and this vanity as gold is beautiful, it is a mark of status. In metaphysical sense the gold is said to be element most likely to be tainted with corruption and sense of greed it inspired.
"It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)"
Tolkien also mentioned that not all gold is automatically evil or pure evil. It's about what it's used to make and how it's used:
"Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)"
And obviously gold as thing of beauty and wealth, is also shown to be fascinating to the 'good peoples' too, Noldor apparently loved gold (while Teleri prefer silver).
@@coronaviruskillerforthegoo3353 he must have hated certain people who like to hoard money then
Seems an awkward bundle to uh 'pocket'... well done sir
Oversight? That's a shotgun-blast plot hole is what that is. Sauron had a royal dwarf in his possession for presumably weeks or longer, yet totally oopsied on the spoiling of said royal prisoner?
Now...if the Dark Lord had hucked all non-essentials into a chest and Gandalf took them that might have made sense.
IMHO: A flaw in Tolkien's logic. Sauron and/or his minions probably wouldn't just let his prisoner keep those items, taking them when they took the ring.
As soon as I saw the part where he says the secret entrance I finally understood what Souron did to kill smaug
True fact - Thorin Oakenshield was actually a very distant ancestor of Paul Oakenfold. The name was altered sometime in the 5th Age when the family shield got run over by a bulldozer. Hence Paul Oakenfold's somewhat odd, dwarfish features and love of gold & money.
Sauron's plans involving Smaug as laid down in the Unfinished Tales from Gandalf's musings seem believable:
""I was very troubled at that time," he said, "for Saruman was hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.
"You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'" The Unfinished Tales, Quest of Erebor
so Smaug would be very useful alive. In any case the meaning of the map and key would not have immediately meant that this could lead to dragon's downfall....because obviously the value of that information, about a secret entrance to the Mountain would not have been in itself posing a danger to any of Sauron's plans...the Lonely Mountain in any case was held securely by the dragon for well over hundred years...the things were in any case safe with the prisoner in the pits so there was no point in actively taking them or destroying on the first glance. Of course later on Sauron had his minions do procedure of securing all things belonging to a prisoner :).
"Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'"
Nicely done sir.
Sauron wasn’t even a thought in Tolkien’s head when he wrote The Hobbit.
Thor and Sauron will fight in Summerslam 2024 this year.
For the world championshits
Awesome video. Great theory.
"The bird, that is, not the infection" - unnecessary, delightful - stopped me in my tracks with it's brilliance
I'm of the consideration that perhaps Thrain hid the key wrapped in the map in his um..."Prison Wallet"... if you know what I mean. ;)
No doubt he realized that there was no sense trying this with the Ring, because Sauron could easily detect its presence.
I find it wonderful how Tolkien managed to tie The Hobbit and The LotR so seamlessly together, considering they were initially two separate and distinct stories!
Indeed, a union betwixt Sauron and Smaug would have had far more devastating consequences and no doubt, a very different outcome for the War.
never considered Sauron trying to rebuild Angmar, which also raises the question, when it was first founded were there any dwarves of the men of dale around to help stop that?
That one doesn't feel right.
Why rebuild Angmar?
It was founded to oppose Arnor. It succeeded.
There really wasn't much in the North to speak of... doesn't really seem like there's be a point in it.
@@josephbenson6301 I know what you mean, but Darth Gandalf was the one here first saying Sauron may want to rebuilt. Ya sure, maybe after Gondor fell too, so he could have total dominion over Middle-Earth, but not before. Seems Arnor has good farm land too, Sauron did still need that.
@@josephbenson6301 why any reason to prepare a secure base or power center? Sauron eventually would have wanted to control the North either way....and there were still some enemies to deal with, Rivendell, Lindon...while the political situation would be different 'now' with the rebuilding attempt the goal would be different...in any case an organized center of power would be useful for later conquest and control of the area....Sauron wants to rule the world not some portions of it :). Eventually all lands even those insignificant would be under his control if he had his way...in any case the idea of rebuilding Angmar is mentioned in the texts of Tolkien...the Unfinished Tales:
""I was very troubled at that time," he said, "for Saruman was hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.
"You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'" The Unfinished Tales, Quest of Erebor
By the time of the War of the Ring or period immediately before it and the hobbit events....Sauron no longer had any signficant force and very very few agents in the north....Sauron since the defeat of Angmar....Sauron was focusing almost entirely on Rhovanion and the southern lands...he controlled large portion of the southern Rhovanion through Dol Guldur.
After defeat of Angmar the Eotheod tribes moved up to the upper vales of Anduin from which they repelled the remnants of Angmar's folk. Other than the tenuous control over the semi indepentent orc tribes and clans of Misty Mountains Sauron had no foothold in the further north. These regions were for long neglected by him...in any case Sauron always kept eye on his enemies, the Elves and the remaining Dunedain (and with that he always hoped for any news of the heirs of Isildur, hunting for any even though he ultimately had no sure information on them).
When the realm of Angmar was first established the historical situation was quite different, there were different polities and differe regional powers and there was different purpose....Angmar arose as a direct threat to the Numenoreans, the kingdom of Arnor, the Dunedain of the North were chief enemies of Sauron and so Angmar's sole purpose was their destruction....the other places like the north of Rhovanion were not as organized then (there would be loose tribes of Men living there, the first ancestors of the men of Dale would already live in the lands between Carnen and Celduin rivers but they would not be strong enough to pose any sort of threat or form united actual state or poltiical entity (it must be noted that the Dale arose as a local power when the Dwarves settled in the area)..back when the Angmar was first made the realm of the Witch-king was stretching on both sides of the Misty Mountains....it controlled the upper Vales of Anduin, near the sources of Great River and there were lots and lots of Orcs in the mountains....that is the Orcs when the Angmar was founded started to attack the Dwarves...the Longbeards for long held the Misty Mountains to be THEIR territory and we hear in the timeline that around the time when the Angmar was established....the Dwarves of Moria were under attack:
"circa 1300
Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains.... The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar."
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix B, The Tale of Years: The Third Age
"It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]"
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain
@@josephbenson6301 Actually... you have Rivendell and Lindon in the North, two major strongholds of those pesky Elves. And importantly, both were full of refugees of Beleriand, more potent enemies than the Silvan Elves of Thranduil and Galadriel's realms. Meanwhile, down South you had Gondor at strife with other Men, keeping it somewhat occupied for the time being.
Sauron was a bit blinded by his hatred of the Numenoreans, so he fixated on them. He really should have taken the last of the Elves out first, and then played the long game in repopulating the North with Men allied to him. After awhile, he'd have surrounded Gondor on all fronts, and would have taken them out.
Prison pocket.....EEEKKK!! I hope Gandalf washed his hands after he first took possession of the key and map!!!!
I have often thought how things might go in the Third Age for Smaug if The One Ring had been destroyed by Isildur. Well, Smaug would have been a major power, little, if anything on Middle Earth could threaten him. Oh, Durin's Bane would awaken, and would become the new Dark Lord. This now leads to Erebor and Smaug would not have been killed! Nasty fate for folks on Middle Earth!
Happy easter tolkien enjoyers
Great video. But I’m sure Gandalf washed the key before giving it to Thorin
I was just about to make the prison-pocket joke but then I lold 😆
Can you explain how you concluded that Gandalf realised when first visiting Bilbo about the map and key belonging to Thrain and being for Thorin?
There is an even More direkt Help of Sauron.
As said in the Council of Elrond The One ring has a Will of his own. Conciderng that without the One Ring Smaug would have burned Bilbo to a Crisp Because he Would have Seen him Bilbo Couldnt have Spoken to the Thrush as You Said and so Bard Couldnt have Shot Smaug. Therefore the Will of the One Ring wich is an Extension of Saurons Will or at Least a Produkt of Sauron giving the Ring a Will of his Own Caused the Ring to Switch from Gollum to Bilbo as Gandalf said to Frodo after Bilbos 111th Birthday Party and therefore Helped to Kill Smaug.
therefor Sauron has Helped the Quest for Erebor two times .
Sauron accidentally helped kill Smaug by having his orcs and goblins waylaying travellers in the Misty Mountains. This allowed Bilbo to find the ring in the first place.
These are the kind of questions I asked to myself 25 years ago when I read the books 😂
In any case, the Ring wouldn't have remained with Gollum in his cave (6:37). He had already lost it. Bilbo found it before he reached Gollum's cave.
It was definitely Thrain's prison pocket.
Thrain is the forgotten Hero of The Hobbit
They possibly could have tricked Sauron into thinking Smaug had the ring already
Here's a topic no one has done a video on. What if Bilbo had given the Arkenstone to Thorin?
"Oops" - SAURON
I usually hear it as "prison purse."
there’s people who say balin, and people who say balin…
and then there’s people who say balin
Hey here’s a video topic: Can the elves become Maiar or as powerful as them. At first it might seem a little stupid because all the Ainur took part in the song of Illivatar so they can’t become Maiar in that sense but they are immortal. Part of the spiritual world and extremely tied to Arda
To answer your question, Glorfindel is said to have been empowered greatly after his return to life. He was already one of the most powerful Elves before so there's a good chance he might've been close to a Maia in power level.
Yea he was a powerful elf but in my view the difference between Maia and a powerful elf is that the Ainur participated in the song of Illuvatar. It is said that when Arda is destroyed and remade again, all the children of Illuvatar will participate in the song of Illuvatar. That will be there will be a large number of Ainur and this might have happened before in Arda history. So maybe the Ainur are already larger in number than we think. Maybe outnumbering the children of Illuvatar if we count those with Eru himself. What is your thought about this?@@DarthGandalfYT
I always thought it was high unrealistic that Thrain got to keep the key and map. Who let's a prisoner keep anything, but a bare amount of clothing?
Further... it's not like Sauron OR his agents there in Dol Guldur wouldn't have recognized a map of the Lonely Mountain.
The guards just missed it?
Yeah... yeah... that's the ticket.
3:44 Gandalf's visit to Bilbo is a bit of a mystery. To say he was "his favorite" Hobbit when Bilbo in fact was a child when Gandalf was in the shire last doesn't make a lot of sense. It may be that Tolkien couldn't think of a good excuse as to why Gandalf picked Bilbo out to be the burglar, but somehow he worked the story around Bilbo and foreshadowed Gollum knowing who had the ring in LOTR.
The ring given to the Dwarves is what lead them to dig deeper and greedily, which Sauron knew would cause in-fighting at the least and provoke dragons and wars at best. Weakening men and dwarves and elves, all without himself using any resources to do so. That's why the rings were given to the dwarves. Sauron did nothing and caused the complete collapse of two major cities, and set back the progress of men, dwarves, and elves, all the while Sauron was amassing his legions and growing exponentially.
Bet he doesn't feel too Smaug about that...
Maybe that's why Frodo was stripped naked when he was captured at the end of the Two Towers? Sauron had learned from his mistake.
I wouldn't be suprised if the Orcs just wanted him to have a death that looked accidental or something so they could blame it on the elements and get some fresh meat..... that they wouldn't have to bother unwrapping later.
I mean the Orcs had specific orders and procedure!
"Now, now,' growled Shagrat. 'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring. or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'"
So, in the Peter Jackson films, when we see Gandalf and Thrain's interaction, it is a change in the timeline? It would have to be, right? As Thorin possessed the key before the Dwarves met up initially at Bag End, as he produces the key then to the company whilst at the table.
Yes as Gandalf would seen him long before the battle of the five armies. Rather than a short time before.
Yes, the movie basically fused two events together.
The first is Gandalf infiltrating Dol Guldur and finding Thrain with the map and key, wich happens before the Quest for Erebor.
The second one is Gandalf with the rest of the white council and possibly Elves from Lorien attacking Dol Guldur and driving Sauron out, wich does happen during the Quest for Erebor.
Yes. An awful change in timeline. As is the fact that Azog died at Dain's hands at the west gate of Moria in the climax of the Dwarf and Orc war.
there is no reason to spend a second of your life with that blasphemous nonsense.
That was amazing 🤩
So Gandalf sent Bilbo and 13 dwarves to occupy a dangerous, fire-breathing dragon while he rallied the White Council to assault Dol Guldur and the Necromancer. With friends like him...
Yeah I never thought about it but, Why wouldn't the super evil guys take Everything from their prisoner???
A rare Tolkien plot hole perhaps?
Sauron effectively kept the map in the same room as his prisoner, so it was theoretically in a safe place
You'd also think the super evil guys would have protected their one vulnerability better by defending Mount Doom, but Sauron's pride preventing him from imagining someone would want to _destroy_ the Ring instead of use it. Same goes for him failing to imagine someone being able to break into Dol Guldur and spring Thror.
@@General12th Sauron was correct with Mt Doom though. No one could willingly destroy the Ring, and installing a door on the cracked side of a volcano seems like a security hazard
@@Crafty_Spirit considering also that the frequent eruptions of Orodruin would destroy or block the entrance (as well as the Sauron's road leading to it) and the fact that there would be under normal circumstances....thousands of Orcs surrounding the mountain....I would say that he had legitimate reasons to believe the Mountain is secured without any special additional measures...it was in the very heart of his realm. Sauron wanted that door because he himself used the Sammath Naur, the Cracks of Doom for his "sorceries and forgings". Orodruin is not just any volcano, it was useful for his purposes, and was positively saturated with his power.....the whole thing comes down to the problem....if Sauron used all his strength in defense of his realm instead of starting aggressive war,....nobody would be able to enter...but since he must go out into the world, send out his forces he pays less attention to attempts at entering his realm...in any case the borders are guarded still....that's how they managed to finalyl capture Gollum who was prowling about.
Good video. It's "prison wallet" BTW
I have a question. If Sauron puts his cruelty, malice, and will to dominate all life into the ring, does it mean that Sauron´s cruelty, etc..., is destroyed together with the rings? Wouldnt it make sense that the destruction of the ring would "cleanse" Sauron´s soul?
I think that this would have been a great idea for an alternative version of The new shadow, to have a cleansed spirit of Sauron/Mairon as someone helping the protagonists. It would certainly bring forth the idea that anyone is capable of redemption, even it if would be a rather involuntary redemption in Sauron´s case. However the clear issue is that the only way that the spirit of Sauron/Mairon would ever be able to help is by giving an idea how to create stuff, which is something that Tolkien would never write. Creating stuff, especially if it was an item made to give an edge in a conflict, or literally a weapon, is always a bad thing. Doubly so if it is a weapon that is more effective than the others, like was the case of the fire of Orthanc, or the Grond back in Lord of the Rings. But it would certainly be an interesting idea for a fan-fiction.
The best part of the hobbit films was Dain Ironfoot. Bro was a badass
That's bc the ring was on his finger but the key was in his prison wallet
I bet your favorite books to read growing up were Marvel Comics "What If" series.
Sauron should've made a deal with Smaug early and have him at his side in the Battle of five armies
I'm familiar with the Third Age, but what is the "Fird Age"?
That was the Age when Furries ruled the Earth.
Very interesting, indeed 🤔🙇♂😊
could Thraine not have used his "prison pocket" for the ring?
I mean, I can see that. A Map and a key on the other hand, that is a lot to put into a prison pocket
Maybe he did hide the ring in his prison pocket but they found it anyway. And then figuered the map and key are not important beacause he did't hide it there.
Even if Bilbo had come along, and then gotten the ring...what if Smaug still got him, and turned him to ash, revealing the ring?
What would Smaug have done with such power?
Depends if Smaug can resist the corruption of the ring or not, best case the ring gets added to his treasure pile and he doesn't mention it to Sauron, while still accepting whatever payment Sauron was giving him to help do his part to conquer middle earth.
Worst case the ring increases Smaug's greed causing him to go after as much gold as he can find, eventually we get a dragon version of a ring wraith enslaved to Sauron's will.
'You want some gold ring... you are welcome to dig through my pile of gold... that is the fifth Ringwraith buried under the gold now...'
I don't even want to know why you know the term "prison pocket."
Interesting video. I'll add another massive strategic advantage that Thorin's people retaking Erabor and the Northmen retaking Dale had. The alliance of Erabor and Dale held off the entire northern army in a long siege that lasted most of the War of the Ring. That meant the elves of Mirkwood were freed up to join forces with the elves of Lothlorien in assaulting and destroying Dul Goldor, and also the elves of Lothlorien were freed up to intercept an army attempting to bypass them and enter northern Rohan, which could have forced King Theodin to divert all or part of his army bound for the Pelenor Fields north to deal with an invasion of his own kingdom. An invasion that never happened as Dul Goldur's forces were split between 2 enemy forces and in a strategically hopeless position from the start. Surrounded on all sides by enemies, with only Moria left for any support, Dul Goldur was doomed to fall to the Men and Elves of the West. Unless the northern army could reach Mirkwood and become a factor along that front.
All this means that while Gondor faced the toughest armies during the war, with the ability of Lothlorien and Mirkwood to keep Moria and Dul Goldor away from Rohan and Gondor, and the Rohirim's ability, with an alliance with the Ents of Fanghorn, to quickly defeat Isengard, Gondor had only allies to the north, and did not have to worry about invasion from that angle, so they could focus all their might on the south and east. The cosest thing to an enemy Gondor might have had other then that could have been the Dunlandings to the west, but they'd already surrendered to Rohand during the War with Isengard, and were already out of the war and thus no longer a threat.
All these tactical advantages the Men of the West got from that one small thing. A great example of The Butterfly Effect being portrayed in fiction.
Sauron also accidentally killed himself by allowing The One to be destroyed lol
Yeah. Not a good video this. Talk about a stretch 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Technically he wasn't killed he was reduced to a spectral wraith doomed to watch the world but never interact with it in a meaningful way ever again.
We need a deepfake of that Christopher Walken scene from Pulp Fiction, but deepfake in Gandalf and Thorin, and replace the watch with the map and key.
I always find it strange that Aragorn personally killed hundreds but that is ok because he is the GOOD GUY while Sauron didn't kill anyone (well once he was an eye) but he is the BAD GUY. Neither seemed that great a Guy. But then they don't exist so it doesn't matter.
I dunno man, Gandalf was captured and got his staff and sword back, and was then killed and still got his sword back... I don't think the author is keeping track...
The moth retrieved his staff and sword while the Eagle distracted Saruman.
It wasn't accidental. It was the authors will. And by the author I don't mean Tolkien. Everything that Sauron did was done to serve and improve upon the will of iluvatar.
If sauron didn't help kill smaug then smaug would have killed gloin after he was done with lake town, if smaug kills gloin then gloin never returns to train his son "Gimli" into such a formidable warrior, so at the battle of helms deep gimli wouldnt have the skill or knowledge to save Aragorn.
There for Aragorn never comes up with the idea of drawing out the orcs from mordor resulting in frodo and sam failing the misson.
Well this is not "helping" in killing smaug.. Its the same to say that Gandalf helped Thorin get killed at the end of the quest, since it was Gandalf the orquestrator of the entire quest.
Or that Sauron helped killing himself, since he made the ring, if he had'nt made it, there would be no ring to be destroyed at Mt. Doom.
Accidents happens along the way.
Was Smaug alive during the 1st age?
Accidentally or purposefully? I doubt Smaug would have served Sauron. Smaug was more of a potential rival than ally. Dragon's served Morgoth. Sauron was no Morgoth.
Bama!
Hubris has been the downfall to many, both good and bad. It is a constant theme throughout history, to think you've got all the angles figured out and no one is smarter than you and your Grand Plan. Or perhaps its just arrogance, Sauron believing himself above the rest of Man/Elf/Dwarf-kind and therefore, smarter and craftier than the them. Its always more complicated than one thing or another and more often is a combination or culmination of various forces or motivators that shape a character and their situation or event. Certainly being a Maiar had a signifiant part to play into Sauron's psyche as being superior to the rest of Middle Earth.