Yes most mixers don't lay down tracks for the wides. But this does not negate the value of expanding the front LCR proscenium with 2 flanking speakers. For longer rooms, you get a more immersive front soundstage with wides. The future of larger room $65k and up should include modular speakers like RBH with EMT tweeter arrays for a waveform like DSP without the Trinov expense. I think conventional audiophile speakers will be phased out for major hometheater design where every seat gets the same decibel level at every seat. Agreed wides should be closer to the closest seating row.
Matthew how do you typically handle an AT frame conflicting with the position of the left and right speaker? Or is the interference from that frame minimal enough that it can be handled with some treatment.
I don't have wides because I have a small bedroom/HT and my receiver/amp are already maxed out and my rear heights are in the wrong spot because my single chair is against the back wall, but my 7.2.4 system STILL sounds pretty awesome to me with a combination of Klipsch normal-size and Polk satellite speakers in a 13x16 space. Even better because a month ago I upgraded from a 50" QNED to a 65" OLED (G4).
If objects are used in the mix, wides, top middles etc. will be used. If the mix is a static mix, say 7.1.4, the speakers that are added beyond 7.1.4 will make no sound. The spatial audio calibration toolkit Blu-ray is an invaluable tool in testing how mixes are rendered in your setup.
I have a 7.2.6 setup. Considering a lot of studios slack on the height layer, I ended up, mirroring my top middles with my rears in order to create a bigger sound stage due to the concern that only my front height and rear heights are being utilized, therefore feeling like I might’ve wasted money on buying top middles. What are your thoughts on that?
Great Information. I know you spend time away from your family to make these videos and it is greatly appreciated. Now take the girls out for ice cream on me!
For me, its definitely based on the size of the room and seating placement. I am doing 7.4.6 (currently 7.2.4, soon to add Rear Heights) because: Size: My room is 20 x 12. so at least 7 ear-level speakers are needed in this sized room. Seating Location: My seats are closer to the middle of the room. Being closer to the front stage, I do NOT need Wides to close a large gap between the fronts and the surrounds. Multiple rows: I have 2 rows of seating in my room. The front row is slightly forward of the center of the room (8 feet from the front stage) and my 2nd row is slightly behind the center point of the room (12 feet from the front stage). As such, I want a physical Top-Middle speaker above both rows for overhead effects. Placement of Height/Top channels: Because I want my system to be fully compatible with DTS:X-Pro and Auro3D as well as Atmos, I decided to place my upper-front speakers as Front Height at 30 degrees of elevation. And my upper-rear channels as Rear Heights at 150 degrees. This created a huge 120 degree gap between the front and rear upper channels, necessitating a pair of Top-Middles be placed between them. Based on these factors, I needed 13 channels or 7.1.6 for this room, based on what I wanted to accomplish.
If I understood your recommendation about putting your LR speakers within 7 or so inches of a LED screen that would necessitate placing your subs (2) in the front corners. My front LR speakers are placed to get the recommended angle to MLP which places them 10ft 4 inches (14 ft wide room) apart which leaves me with locating the 2 SVS subs between my Sony 85 inch TV screen and the LR JBL towers.
Corner placement is likely preferable to the placement you mentioned. The exception might be if that happens to equal quarter width placement which may excite less modes. The key really is a balance between the correct listening/viewing angle and coherence between sound and video. If the display is so small that you can make them equal, then the display is too small. They should match.
Seems to me that the expensive Theo Kalomirakis type of home theatres are back in style again, replacing the movie-palace glamour builds with out-of-sight, elaborate state-of-the-art equipment and computer rooms attached.
Thanks! Been following you for a while now and have learned a lot! Also validated many of my own theories. I have a follow up question on today's topic of Wides .... I've seen some debate among audio UA-camrs advocating for Top/Height speakers to be placed at the top of the front and rear walls at the ceiling, and not in the Dolby-recommended position. What are your thoughts on this? Seems to me if the Dolby-certified mixing rooms have the speakers per spec at 45 degrees to the listening position and away from the walls, then this is the best way to hear what they heard.
I just discovered this channel as it came up on my feed for the first time today. This information is invaluable. I really wish these types of videos were around when I was putting my home theater together back in 2006. Thanks.
Excellent explanation and video. Some of us have expansive equipment's, but not the room size that we would love to have, so we don't use the maximum speaker lay out that are processor is capable of .But we still get good emersion.
Hah everyone loved it. I could be wrong but I don’t believe it’s real. It was found in Adobes photo library. I think it’s a generated fake image. The fact that this is so popular makes me think we should do a room like this. Everyone seems to want it. Even my brother commented.
Hi Matt, great video as always. I recently added front wides, in the correct zone. Have not had a lot of screen time with material that makes effective use of them, so I would say the jury is still out. In a 7.1 mix, would the processor not interpolate between the side surround and the fronts to derive a wide signal?
I have my wides on the ceiling aimed at MLP and did the phantom between mains-wide and wides-Surrounds and it pans smoothly and doesn’t feel like they’re on the ceiling. They do a great Job when listening to Top-gun maverick, Just wanted to share my experience with my setup
Great discussion. Love the technical stuff and that you share your experience. Most of it will never apply to my cheapish small setup but still love it for the future. I wish I had been able to afford a higher end AVR back in 2020-21 (when they were in short supply!) so I could upgrade to wide but you'd probably think my basement HT is too small to warrant it but I feel there's way too much space between the surround and my fronts...
Talking about Atmos objects.. If I remember correctly, they are low resolution and limited bandwidth right? So placing them in the bed channels should render better audio quality (but maybe with less immersion)?
Hi Matt. I bought a $10 Thanks. IDK where it is. My questions: I own 4 SVS SB2000s and am running DLBC from my HTP-1. My bass sounds really good now, but I'm missing the physical punch in the bass.I'm thinking of adding 2 Hsu ULS-15s. Might try 1 first. Sometimes I notice distortion on loud bass at high volumes in certain music. Not so much in movies. Not sure if it's the room or the subs really. Anyhow, I'm using 2 of my svs subs as stands for my new mains - 2 vertical Kef Ref 4cs non meta, and the other 2 in the front room corners. I don't have room to put subs on the side walls or behind me. I'm wondering if I should maybe sell off the SVS subs as their lesser output/higher distortion could detract from the dual Hsu? Also might I stack 2 daisy chained SB 2000s and run them as 1 and might Dirac see them as having similar output to 1 single HSU 15 incher? Can DLBC possibly blend the 2 brands properly or should I just run the 15s?...Also considering their new VTF-TN1s which I could run either sealed or vented, but not sure it would be worth the extra $260 per sub. I'm very limited in my budget so this will (likely) be my last upgrade and I'm already in my mid sixties! THANKS, Kurt Schulwitz EDIT: I see the $ in a separate comment. Room is roughly L 24' x w 18 x h 7'. It is in the basement, so concrete walls & floor, Good amount of absorption panels, tons of curtains around 70% of the walls, and wall to wall carpet with additional thick shag area rugs in front half of the room and even behind th MLP for the side & rear surrounds. Maybe TMI, or more may be better. Thanks again
Thanks for the continued discussions on the challenges of home theater. How to tackle less-than-perfect spaces is always appreciated and probably the bulk of the problems your subscribers face.
Hi Matt, you could offer a consultation for a fee, on the basic set up or their potential set up for their own home cinema system... Just by working off their submitted, say 5 photographs... And with permission upload them to your audience.
Couldn't agree more on the second side surrounds, at best they should be an absolute last resort on the upgrade path. In my case, adding them cost almost $30K just for two extra channels. 1- upgrading to Altitude 32 (24 channel count) from a AVM 90 2- Two additional speakers and back boxes 3- Labor to install the additional speakers and wiring For almost all movies, they are NEVER used... not even a peep. For other reference grade movies, they're probably used 5% of the time, and mostly during whirlwind/loud action scenes.
Who that’s crazy! I always wondered if it was useful to add more channels. Most new movies are encoded into 5.1 or 7.1 channels and when they have ATMOS it is at best 7.1.4!!
@@we8463 Totally agree, but sometimes in this theater space, things get exponentially more expensive as you upgrade. I originally expected 3-5 people to show up in my theater, and now we routinely have 15-25 people attend, hence the second row of seats and hence the second row of side surrounds. Little did I know they hardly get used!
I like the idea of zones. In my theater, I couldn't put the side surrounds at 90 degrees (L shaped room). Anthony Grimanni suggests in a video to put the side surround speakers still at 90 degrees but I felt like the right side surround being 20 ft away was just too much. I compromised by putting my side surrounds a little forward from the MLP before the right wall ends and makes the L shape. The result has been pretty good. I've compared sitting at 90 degrees vs having the surrounds forward and the difference is small. It's the best I could do, and I feel I still kept within the "zone" of where the side surrounds should be.
Not just zones (the RP-22 splits the "upper-layer" into upper front, upper middle and upper rear zones) but also as "layers". There's ear-layer, the height layer (height channels between 15° and 45° with 30° being the median angle) and the Top (overhead) layer (between 60° and 120° of elevation). The height layer exists to bridge the gap between overhead speakers and ear-level speakers. As Matthew has mentioned before, our ability to image sounds in the vertical plane is not good, so a transitional speaker is needed to help with those transitions. Also, speakers in the height layer can work together with the ear-layer to make taller soundstages. The amount of spaciousness you get with the addition of the height level is extraordinary.
I think the "secret" is following the Grimani "acoustic recipe" and get room treatments "perfect". You need to check out the research done by Tom Holman on wides, wides are more important than back surrounds.
Something is amiss. If the mix is encoded in Atmos and is object-based, it cannot have channel dependencies. The decoding occurs at the A/V receiver or processor and assigned a channel based on available channels. That’s how I’ve always understood it.
Could you please explain why you are bashing ARC Genesis especially when Gene praised ARC Genesis in his reviews! I agree quality over quantity when it comes to speakers, big fan of KEF Reference series and Genelec The Ones speakers!
When used correctly, ARC is an absolute gem! Issue is, despite watching a lot of videos on it, there were only 1-2 that came from seasoned Anthem owners that knew all the fine details.
Man…. Just listening to you. I feel like a easier aspect to this is to just place the speakers at a similar distance from each other. I don’t use wides only because my door way walking in is where you would put a “wide” speaker. But my speakers in general are 63 inches to 69 inches from each other no matter where you measure from. I have no issue of panning in any direction. My theater is wider than deep. I have designed many theaters. And have found that the old school way of trying to do deep theaters than going down that rabbit hole forcing the second set of surrounds or setting up wides. Just isn’t worth it. But every space for every answer. Setting up the room is paramount. But a “home theater” should be no more than 2 rows. Anything after that. You are trying to hard. But there are solutions to all of this - just compromised deeply.
Yes most mixers don't lay down tracks for the wides.
But this does not negate the value of expanding the front LCR proscenium with 2 flanking speakers. For longer rooms, you get a more immersive front soundstage with wides.
The future of larger room $65k and up should include modular speakers like RBH with EMT tweeter arrays for a waveform like DSP without the Trinov expense. I think conventional audiophile speakers will be phased out for major hometheater design where every seat gets the same decibel level at every seat.
Agreed wides should be closer to the closest seating row.
Matthew how do you typically handle an AT frame conflicting with the position of the left and right speaker? Or is the interference from that frame minimal enough that it can be handled with some treatment.
I don't have wides because I have a small bedroom/HT and my receiver/amp are already maxed out and my rear heights are in the wrong spot because my single chair is against the back wall, but my 7.2.4 system STILL sounds pretty awesome to me with a combination of Klipsch normal-size and Polk satellite speakers in a 13x16 space. Even better because a month ago I upgraded from a 50" QNED to a 65" OLED (G4).
If objects are used in the mix, wides, top middles etc. will be used. If the mix is a static mix, say 7.1.4, the speakers that are added beyond 7.1.4 will make no sound. The spatial audio calibration toolkit Blu-ray is an invaluable tool in testing how mixes are rendered in your setup.
I have a 7.2.6 setup. Considering a lot of studios slack on the height layer, I ended up, mirroring my top middles with my rears in order to create a bigger sound stage due to the concern that only my front height and rear heights are being utilized, therefore feeling like I might’ve wasted money on buying top middles.
What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks for the video!
You're welcome!
Great Information. I know you spend time away from your family to make these videos and it is greatly appreciated. Now take the girls out for ice cream on me!
Thank you, so sweet of you 🙏
For me, its definitely based on the size of the room and seating placement. I am doing 7.4.6 (currently 7.2.4, soon to add Rear Heights) because:
Size: My room is 20 x 12. so at least 7 ear-level speakers are needed in this sized room.
Seating Location: My seats are closer to the middle of the room. Being closer to the front stage, I do NOT need Wides to close a large gap between the fronts and the surrounds.
Multiple rows: I have 2 rows of seating in my room. The front row is slightly forward of the center of the room (8 feet from the front stage) and my 2nd row is slightly behind the center point of the room (12 feet from the front stage). As such, I want a physical Top-Middle speaker above both rows for overhead effects.
Placement of Height/Top channels: Because I want my system to be fully compatible with DTS:X-Pro and Auro3D as well as Atmos, I decided to place my upper-front speakers as Front Height at 30 degrees of elevation. And my upper-rear channels as Rear Heights at 150 degrees. This created a huge 120 degree gap between the front and rear upper channels, necessitating a pair of Top-Middles be placed between them.
Based on these factors, I needed 13 channels or 7.1.6 for this room, based on what I wanted to accomplish.
If I understood your recommendation about putting your LR speakers within 7 or so inches of a LED screen that would necessitate placing your subs (2) in the front corners. My front LR speakers are placed to get the recommended angle to MLP which places them 10ft 4 inches (14 ft wide room) apart which leaves me with locating the 2 SVS subs between my Sony 85 inch TV screen and the LR JBL towers.
Corner placement is likely preferable to the placement you mentioned. The exception might be if that happens to equal quarter width placement which may excite less modes.
The key really is a balance between the correct listening/viewing angle and coherence between sound and video. If the display is so small that you can make them equal, then the display is too small. They should match.
Sir the thumbnail you put here is exactly like my room dimension. But how can i put surround and surround back speakers if i want to go 7.1.4.
Seems to me that the expensive Theo Kalomirakis type of home theatres are back in style again, replacing the movie-palace glamour builds with out-of-sight, elaborate state-of-the-art equipment and computer rooms attached.
Thanks! Been following you for a while now and have learned a lot! Also validated many of my own theories. I have a follow up question on today's topic of Wides .... I've seen some debate among audio UA-camrs advocating for Top/Height speakers to be placed at the top of the front and rear walls at the ceiling, and not in the Dolby-recommended position. What are your thoughts on this? Seems to me if the Dolby-certified mixing rooms have the speakers per spec at 45 degrees to the listening position and away from the walls, then this is the best way to hear what they heard.
I just discovered this channel as it came up on my feed for the first time today. This information is invaluable. I really wish these types of videos were around when I was putting my home theater together back in 2006. Thanks.
Thanks and welcome
Extremely helpful. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent explanation and video. Some of us have expansive equipment's, but not the room size that we would love to have, so we don't use the maximum speaker lay out that are processor is capable of .But we still get good emersion.
After watching so many different cinema acoustic/soundproofing videos, I enjoy, and watch, yours the most! Great advice! Thank you.
That’s so sweet of you to say!
Great , usefull insights , without trying to sell something.
I was really hoping you would be showcasing the theater in the thumbnail.
Hah everyone loved it. I could be wrong but I don’t believe it’s real. It was found in Adobes photo library. I think it’s a generated fake image.
The fact that this is so popular makes me think we should do a room like this. Everyone seems to want it. Even my brother commented.
That was really insightful.
Hi Matt, great video as always. I recently added front wides, in the correct zone. Have not had a lot of screen time with material that makes effective use of them, so I would say the jury is still out. In a 7.1 mix, would the processor not interpolate between the side surround and the fronts to derive a wide signal?
I have my wides on the ceiling aimed at MLP and did the phantom between mains-wide and wides-Surrounds and it pans smoothly and doesn’t feel like they’re on the ceiling.
They do a great Job when listening to Top-gun maverick,
Just wanted to share my experience with my setup
Great discussion. Love the technical stuff and that you share your experience. Most of it will never apply to my cheapish small setup but still love it for the future. I wish I had been able to afford a higher end AVR back in 2020-21 (when they were in short supply!) so I could upgrade to wide but you'd probably think my basement HT is too small to warrant it but I feel there's way too much space between the surround and my fronts...
Talking about Atmos objects.. If I remember correctly, they are low resolution and limited bandwidth right? So placing them in the bed channels should render better audio quality (but maybe with less immersion)?
2:30 bro fricken preach. I've been thinking the same thing
Hi Matt. I bought a $10 Thanks. IDK where it is. My questions: I own 4 SVS SB2000s and am running DLBC from my HTP-1. My bass sounds really good now, but I'm missing the physical punch in the bass.I'm thinking of adding 2 Hsu ULS-15s. Might try 1 first.
Sometimes I notice distortion on loud bass at high volumes in certain music. Not so much in movies. Not sure if it's the room or the subs really. Anyhow, I'm using 2 of my svs subs as stands for my new mains - 2 vertical Kef Ref 4cs non meta, and the other 2 in the front room corners. I don't have room to put subs on the side walls or behind me. I'm wondering if I should maybe sell off the SVS subs as their lesser output/higher distortion could detract from the dual Hsu? Also might I stack 2 daisy chained SB 2000s and run them as 1 and might Dirac see them as having similar output to 1 single HSU 15 incher? Can DLBC possibly blend the 2 brands properly or should I just run the 15s?...Also considering their new VTF-TN1s which I could run either sealed or vented, but not sure it would be worth the extra $260 per sub. I'm very limited in my budget so this will (likely) be my last upgrade and I'm already in my mid sixties!
THANKS,
Kurt Schulwitz
EDIT: I see the $ in a separate comment. Room is roughly L 24' x w 18 x h 7'. It is in the basement, so concrete walls & floor, Good amount of absorption panels, tons of curtains around 70% of the walls, and wall to wall carpet with additional thick shag area rugs in front half of the room and even behind th MLP for the side & rear surrounds. Maybe TMI, or more may be better. Thanks again
Thank you. I’ll record a video about it
@@PoesAcoustics I added info about my room, if that helps. Thank you.
Thanks for the continued discussions on the challenges of home theater. How to tackle less-than-perfect spaces is always appreciated and probably the bulk of the problems your subscribers face.
Thanks!
I appreciate your support of my channel ❤️
Thank you Matt for sharing your wisdom. I truely appreciate it.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Matt, you could offer a consultation for a fee, on the basic set up or their potential set up for their own home cinema system... Just by working off their submitted, say 5 photographs... And with permission upload them to your audience.
Hi yes of course I offer private consultations. You can send your request to matt@poesacoustics.com
Couldn't agree more on the second side surrounds, at best they should be an absolute last resort on the upgrade path. In my case, adding them cost almost $30K just for two extra channels.
1- upgrading to Altitude 32 (24 channel count) from a AVM 90
2- Two additional speakers and back boxes
3- Labor to install the additional speakers and wiring
For almost all movies, they are NEVER used... not even a peep. For other reference grade movies, they're probably used 5% of the time, and mostly during whirlwind/loud action scenes.
Who that’s crazy! I always wondered if it was useful to add more channels. Most new movies are encoded into 5.1 or 7.1 channels and when they have ATMOS it is at best 7.1.4!!
@@we8463 Totally agree, but sometimes in this theater space, things get exponentially more expensive as you upgrade. I originally expected 3-5 people to show up in my theater, and now we routinely have 15-25 people attend, hence the second row of seats and hence the second row of side surrounds. Little did I know they hardly get used!
I like the idea of zones. In my theater, I couldn't put the side surrounds at 90 degrees (L shaped room). Anthony Grimanni suggests in a video to put the side surround speakers still at 90 degrees but I felt like the right side surround being 20 ft away was just too much. I compromised by putting my side surrounds a little forward from the MLP before the right wall ends and makes the L shape. The result has been pretty good. I've compared sitting at 90 degrees vs having the surrounds forward and the difference is small. It's the best I could do, and I feel I still kept within the "zone" of where the side surrounds should be.
Not just zones (the RP-22 splits the "upper-layer" into upper front, upper middle and upper rear zones) but also as "layers".
There's ear-layer, the height layer (height channels between 15° and 45° with 30° being the median angle) and the Top (overhead) layer (between 60° and 120° of elevation).
The height layer exists to bridge the gap between overhead speakers and ear-level speakers. As Matthew has mentioned before, our ability to image sounds in the vertical plane is not good, so a transitional speaker is needed to help with those transitions.
Also, speakers in the height layer can work together with the ear-layer to make taller soundstages. The amount of spaciousness you get with the addition of the height level is extraordinary.
I think the "secret" is following the Grimani "acoustic recipe" and get room treatments "perfect". You need to check out the research done by Tom Holman on wides, wides are more important than back surrounds.
Something is amiss. If the mix is encoded in Atmos and is object-based, it cannot have channel dependencies. The decoding occurs at the A/V receiver or processor and assigned a channel based on available channels. That’s how I’ve always understood it.
Could you please explain why you are bashing ARC Genesis especially when Gene praised ARC Genesis in his reviews!
I agree quality over quantity when it comes to speakers, big fan of KEF Reference series and Genelec The Ones speakers!
When used correctly, ARC is an absolute gem! Issue is, despite watching a lot of videos on it, there were only 1-2 that came from seasoned Anthem owners that knew all the fine details.
So if budget allows and you have enough space add as many channels you want.
Step 1: have a lot more f money.
OMG.... and I only have ELACs and Klipsch subs. I have to stay away from any kind of sound reviewers. My wife is watching over shoulders.
Man…. Just listening to you. I feel like a easier aspect to this is to just place the speakers at a similar distance from each other.
I don’t use wides only because my door way walking in is where you would put a “wide” speaker. But my speakers in general are 63 inches to 69 inches from each other no matter where you measure from.
I have no issue of panning in any direction. My theater is wider than deep. I have designed many theaters. And have found that the old school way of trying to do deep theaters than going down that rabbit hole forcing the second set of surrounds or setting up wides. Just isn’t worth it. But every space for every answer.
Setting up the room is paramount. But a “home theater” should be no more than 2 rows. Anything after that. You are trying to hard. But there are solutions to all of this - just compromised deeply.
Thanks!
Thank you 🙏
Thanks!
Welcome!