PLEASE READ *before commenting*! 1) All comments here are moderated by a third party 2) Polite comments that advance the conversation are most welcome 3) No URLs, racist/sexist remarks or conspiracy theories, please
Every time you put out a room sound related video, I am more convinced that my next upgrade should be a really decent set of headphones. There's no way my wife is going to sign up to full room treatments. Decent headphones have to be more cost effective than decent room treatments. The other thing, room treatments won't block out the sound of my mother-in-law, headphones will, so that has to be a win win! 🤣
Headphones sound is different. I enjoy speakers much more. Probably because it's not only about hearing, but feeling as well. And yes, I'm in the same boat with room treatment, though no mother in law nearby :)
Agreed. Unless you have a home big enough to have a dedicated room... this just isn't practical. Wish I would've got into this hobby before I bought my house. Ah well. :/
It is a problem without a dedicated Room. And I tried, when my wife stated it would be the necessary actions or her. Somehow my „Darling I enjoyed our marriage, but…“ didn’t had the expected reaction. Strange. So, Headspeakers it was. Very expensive. And really great. BUT. You can guess. But better than only be free to listen, when one is home alone or at very very low volumes.
After fully treating my listening room I was just bowled over with the amount of extra information I was able to perceive. Most noticeably, the differences in acoustic environment, where the original recordings were made, jump out and force themselves to be apparent. I love to listen to the decay after a big orchestra finishes with a crescendo, and the room treatment makes this so much more accessible. IMHO the room is just as important, if not even more so, than the equipment in use.
My main speakers (B&W 606 S2) sound awful in my garage. My garage speakers (Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2), at about 1/3 the price, sound GREAT in my garage. Sometimes it's the speakers, sometimes it's the room, sometimes it's the speakers in combination with the room.
This video sure helps me to now settle with what I have and to stop pursuing that elusive "better" with ever more expensive speakers. Reconfiguring my available listening spaces simply isn't an option. Thank you for helping me understand.
I’m in the same boat as you. I can’t change my room and treat it with panels. I am wondering if room correction like Dirac and RoomPerfect is the next best thing if you can’t do room treatment.
This is such a great video. Audiophiles spend so much on equipment to improve sound, but the room is so important. But the one thing I want to know is how much (generally) does it cost to professionally treat a room?
Good video for those interested in basic acoustic treatment and why it is important. From a personal perspective I have treated my entire 4.2m x 3.3m x 2.4m room with 19 GIK panels (£2.5k) of various types and measured using REW and umik mic I have an RT40 time, I still have 3 room modes at 35hz, 75hz and 130hz but DSP implemented through ROON has somewhat tamed the bass - not perfect by any means but certainly more enjoyable to listen to, speakers are Dynaudio LYD 48's and Dynaudio 18s sub using CXN v2 streamer. My preferred listening choice of electronic music has never sounded better, needless to say with that much treatment in my only living room it's no surprise i live alone. 😃
Oh boy these videos are on another level… this is by far the best video produced by John and may I say kudos to Olaf who’s also been contributing to the success of this channel. I am definitely thinking of adding some acoustic panels on my ceiling first, this should get the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) ;-)
Thinking and doing isn’t the same thing. If the WAF is still in order after you have put it ceiling panels then post a link so we can see the design and maybe get a WAF ourselves 😅
My listening room is mine to play with. And it needs some help. Lucky me! It’ll be an “art project” and not just room treatment. Check back in a year or two and I’ll send you some photos. 😃
I have a big peak in my treble response thanks to my room being very live. I use Dirac to kerb some of that energy and it works very well. I use some acoustic panels for bass and soft furniture everywhere else. Fine tune speaker placement and you can get it quite far.
This was your MOST IMPORTANT VIDEO ever. Finally, somebody who is reviewing HiFi equipment is putting some emphasis on room acoustics. For thirty years I was buying into the sales pitch, that, if I what a better sound, I need to buy more expensive HiFi equipment. For my fifties birthday I got myself a treat and bought some room treatment elements. What an eye (ear) opener! May I present you with a challenge? I loved your approach with the raspberry pi (getting 90% of the benefit of expensive HiFi equipment for 10% of the cost). I believe the same approach would work in room acoustic treatments. From my experience absorber are way more important than diffusors. Pining some Basotect panels on the ceiling and on strategic places at the walls can get you a long way for a rather small budget, but make a huge difference. I would love for you to make a video out of this. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
Thank you John for all the work over the years on explaning so many aspects of this "hobby". Sometimes words don't paint the full picture or leave room for interpretation but examples like this really help someone like me, with limited knowlegdge to understand a bit more.
I completely agree on the importance of room treatments. Conventional wisdom says the better the room is treated, the less room correction has to do and the better the results. Low bass is the most difficult to treat, so I’m very interested in seeing whether room correction is effective (or as effective as extensive bass trapping)
One of the most useful videos I have seen. The comparison was an ear opening event. We all have heard about how important the room is to your listening pleasure but I feel most people focus on the equipment first and then “look” into room treat as a possible solution. Hell people will spend money on cables, isolation products, etc. before they will look at room treatments because of the cost. Nevertheless it is an important part of creating the best possible sound from a audio system.
Wow John that was an amazing demonstration between the two rooms, and very easy to hear the reverb in your neighbours living room. I used to Dirac live via a Mini DSP SHD and I have an acoustically treated room.The thing I noticed immediately was the imaging became completely focused. I've also put 4 rather large Primacoustic bass traps in each corner of my listening room which dramatically helped my 80 Hz peak in my room. There is absolutely no doubt about it in my opinion, treating your room which essentially is the instrument your stereo system is wrapped around, is an absolute critical aspect of hearing your system as it should be sounding. And one area that is vastly overlooked by most Audiophiles. Great video John, an excellent illustration of the difference between treated and untreated rooms.🎧🙂👍
Yes sir, John. Acoustic treatment of a listening room is one of the very best audio tweaks and or upgrades you can do. I swear by it and thankfully my wife allows it. :)
Thumb up! 👍🏻As a a musician, and sometime "sound guy", it's refreshing to see that some audiophiles finaly realize they should better invest in room treatment instead on über-expensive pure native silver AC cables and rare wood shelves to improve their experience.
Very informative thanks. I'd never have considered that treating the ceiling makes the largest single improvement. My (obviously wrong) instinct would be the wall opposite the speakers. I learned lots today.
Probably the best hifi video ive watched in a very long time. We have an acoustically horrible room, and this has given much food for thought. Thank you John!
You can easily hear how the room actually alters the actual tone your ears hear at the end of the video when you switch between rooms with the finger snapping. This tone shift happens from the lowest lows to the highest highs and all in between. So... if your room is untreated it is actually altering the tone, therefor one can deduce that in an untreated room you are not at all hearing the actual speakers tone. This was born out in my own acoustic journey as when I finally got my room sorted (not sorted until the room ode is dealt with...) the speakers turned into a very different sound signature, a way better one. It is simply impossible to know how your gear actually truly sounds in an untreated room. Great vidi, Cheers!
There is 1 foot of mostly empty space between the ceiling and concrete of the building. So it is 9 feet instead of 8. You can put holes and ports into your ceiling to create a helmholtz resonator tuned on 340/2.4 (or 0.5 or 2 of it) to lower the major ceiling - floor resonance mode. Fyi : Sonex makes washable panels, about $7/sq.ft. i have used them for 7 years.
This is a super important vidi for everyone who does not have their room treated yet... it is the subject I've been harping on for a few years in the comments of audio vidis... Cheers!
100% agree. I made my own wall panels with rockwool and got my room down to an average of 3.3. Makes a huge difference. On another note, was able to smooth out my bass holes in the room with my SB-2000 Pro Subwoofer software app.
John great video I treated my whole room diy. Diffusers front and back wall.Absorption on side walls.All the electronic changes I have done over the years nothing has even come close to the clarity, soundstage, room size .I have soundstage insturments 15 ft. Behind the speakers!
An excellent case made for at least modest room treatments; the audio forums are filled with people comparing gear and trying to use vague words to describe audio without any control language regarding room acoustics. You have described a middle ground between going crazy and doing nothing that I think completely defeats the argument that one can do nothing and just listen to the music, as people like to say. You cannot listen to the music or a piece of gear nearly as well without room treatments. And you have demonstrated this.
John, I’m not trying to blow hot air up ur rear but I just wanted to say (even though you probably won’t read this), “That you are possibly one of the best channels on YT” & I for one always find your productions both entertaining and educational. I appreciate your efforts. Cheers from Hobart Australia 🇦🇺👍🏻
Yes! Such an important video. I have just finished treating my room after a 10 month journey of experimenting an learning. The experience I get from my hifi now is night and day. And it is impossible to ever go back to no panels. My treatment is about 5-6% of the total cost of my hifi, but is easily responsible for 50% of the goodness.
This is the best Video that you have released and for people like me who are new hifi enthusiast wanting to get the most and learn I will have to see the video again cause many important points u have covered and I don’t understand most terms so lot to learn . I would love see some more videos from you with regards to this more expanded ways 🙏🏻
John, one of the best “comparison” videos. Wow, night and day room to room. Super informative. Love my speakers (KEF LSX II in a super small office) However, no wonder I find my various headphones and IEMs “better” experience.
Well presented John, we are able to take a little or a lot from your observations that may be applied to our own rooms. If nothing else, the information presented is invaluable for understanding music/room interaction.
I've never discounted what room treatment could do or that it had value to someone... until I watched this video, walked into my TV/Listening room and snapped my fingers around the space. I always knew I could do something to the room but was unsure if it was need. Thanks for another fantastic video, will make me look up at dull offices and appreciate how much better a drop ceiling is making a room sound.
Can’t agree with you more. Wish I didn’t ignore it for this long and could have saved me time and money switching gear when the issue was with my room.
Huh, interesting comparisons. I frequently hear distracting room echoes in Skype conference calls, now I know what it is and how it affects my own listening. Thank you!
I just moved into a new flat and had a similar experience as the comparison in this video. The difference between my old living room (untreated but with a thousand books and stuff) and the new one (still completely empty) is like heaven and hell, especially when it comes to reverb. Just one of the occasions where I realized how much of an impact the room has when listening to music.
I was seriously looking at my room after viewing the KEF sl60’s and thinking my room really sucks for music. Then i search your channel and see this video released 6 hours ago. 😅 really nice video again! It makes me think more of buying headphones instead of speakers 🥲
Really could hear the difference - compelling stuff - but is it as much fun as a brand new shiny box !!! .... just joking ...best explanation and proof of room effects I've ever seen.
I’m sure I’m in the same position as a few others… I’m in a dedicated listening room with lots of art on the walls. I’m really hesitant to take the art down to put up room treatment but videos like this make me want to find a happy balance. Surely someone has designed room treatment panels that can incorporate artwork, kind of akin to an analogue Samsung Frame 😊
I never belived I could hear these differences. Great stuff there ! Room reverb does mess the sound after all! Keep up the good work, i love watching your videos...
Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this video. Very well done, great editing, super content. You may have saved me a lot of money by illustrating how treating your room can improve the sound incredibly. I have a great interest in learning more how treatment can help with my room problems. Probably will start with the ceiling...seems logical and least intrusive.
Moving speakers closer is a good tip! Just moved my b&w CDM-1 to my office, standing each at 1.5m away from my ears and of each other, on stands and wow does it sound better...
My dedicated listening room is in the basement with a low ceiling and still sounds horrible with already $2,000.00 spent on diffusers and absorbers. I would need approx. another $ 5,000.00 to properly treat it but, on a fixed income, it's very difficult and would take years, so I have to listen at a very low level to avoid the room taking over!
“I can fix your room reverb” is the new “Would you like to see my etchings?” Silly quips on my part aside, I enjoy what you’re doing with the vlogs, John. I am a big fan of your great work.
Great video! I'd never even heard of RT60 before. Interesting point that room treatment is best for mids and highs and software correction is best for bass. And I was just wishfully thinking software correction could be an easy fix for everything. I agree that a lot of people feel like panels aren't that sexy/fun especially when it just seems like some overly expensive dressed up foam. A fairly basic VTM kit for a small room costs about 5 grand here in Australia. There's a huge divide between cheap/DIY but ugly solutions and aesthetic but expensive options.
Reverberation is principally a large room phenomenon, which is why one must take RT60 with a grain of salt in small rooms. Small room acoustics is dominated by reflections. The difference between specular reflections and reverb is technical enough to spoil a video. This, as written, was a great demo!
Crikey, I was thinking "100ms or so, that's not much to make a difference, surely?" but the contrast between your room and your neighbours was quite marked. Quite a revelation. Thanks for taking the time to do that, much appreciated
Thanks for the 101 and sometimes what is really sexy is more of an inside job & within anyway. Despite prior experience working in music venues & in recording studios, nothing landed for me more than experiencing a recent full acoustic treatment in one of my corporate spaces. A/B’d for fun the before and after with some music and the results just blew our minds.
Dear John Could you explain if there is some sort of dependency between listening levels and certain room acoustic issues? Maybe at lower levels some issues/frequencies are not so much of a concern?
4:50 I am sure you will find the reverb time, of say 1 second in the case you mention, is the time the reflected sound takes to decay to a certain dB level from that original signal. In an acoustically dead room this decay is short.. in a live room this decay time is long. Sound travels at ~330 metres per second sound does not disappear for a second before it comes back not unless the room is massive. Edit: you explained RT60 later 👍
I've been working on room treatments for a few months now, and the improvements have been very apparent. But I've noticed on thing that I wasn't expecting - the sustain on notes comes across more clearly, and I the ending of notes is a lot better delineated. But yes, room treatment makes a *huge* difference, and I'm only sorry it took me so many years to learn that - this video should be essential watching for anyone who wants better sound.
My living room only contains a sofa and a thin rug as less reflective furniture. The room is not much bigger than a bedroom. When I have people over and we converse at the dinner table, it sometimes feels like my ear drums pop. There is definitely that "zing" you describe and the hollowness of sound in that room. Tank you for your edutainment, it is insightful and has me thinking about my rooms
There ARE ways to treat the room without it looking like a music studio. I’m not a fan of fabric covered panels even though they do the job. I’ve been building my home studio and on the end wall (behind the speakers) I built a metal stud frame, filled it with 100mm depth rockwool, covered with thin fabric (to stop the rockwool dust) then covered the whole wall with acoustic slatted panels floor to ceiling. The slats are mounted on acoustic felt which allows the sound to pass through to the cavity behind and this gives class A performance and also some diffusion. I built bass traps in the rear corners using the same technique (also with the slatted panels). On the side walls I made 14 hexagonal frames filled with rockwool with a canvas front which is printed with artworks of my choice. In my case I chose images of iconic music artists. They are several clusters of these hexagon absorbers on different walls and I have to say that it looks awesome! I still have to work out what I’m going to do with the ceiling but I know it will also look great. So if you think that having a acoustically treated room is going to mean that visually it will be a big problem for your wife or partner, then think again! It IS possible if you just apply yourself and use your imagination.
I would never risk my health by placing Rockwool in a living room. Everyone knows in DK that it is for roof only and inside the walls. Health above audio.
I haven't measured my dedicated room (5,3x3.6mx3m... about 20sqm) but since I learnt about acoustics and droped off quite a lot of treatment from GIK and others on specific areas (mainly absortion on first reflection points and diffusion somewhere else) I noticed a vast improvement on everything. Everybody thinks first on electronics and speakers but the room is greatly forgotten. PS: sorry for my english, which is not my mother language (catalan, is).
I have a room almost the same exact measures of yours... (5m x3.6m x2.8m). I have speakers on the long wall, simmetrically centered in respect to room axis; speakers are distanced 2.00m between them, front baffle 70cm from wall (1/5 room length). Listening point is detached from back wall around 1.20m (1/3 room length), formimg equilater triangle with speakers. I have Gik Monster Traps 120x60 on back wall put in horizontal, 2x 120x60 in back angles put in vertical, and 2x 60x60 on sides first reflection point. I followed Gik indications given for free by one of their consultants. Also I have medium thickness carpet before the speakers. I never measured but I like the results. Great homogeneity of sound in different points in the room (but obviously in listening point it is the best, I made many tries in the years). I have deep fast bass, very firm and non resonating, clear mids and great soundstage and detail. I'm quite happy withe results. Still I haven't put any diffusion, I fear it could give more "confusion" in the sound because it's a small room.
Mmm yes... *sips his tea, listening to this video with a mediocre wireless gaming headset, his music listening setup is a smartphone with M50xBT's and Spotify, literally doesn't even own speakers anymore* Education and entertaining. In reality, as an ex-audiophile, some years ago I had a massive shift in caring about audio quality. I got tired of listening to my gear, and now I just listen to music. I've found what's good enough for me (previously mentioned), and put more time into enjoying music with what I have rather than caring about the gear. You'd be surprised what you can get used to after caring about audio for so long. Also, I'm poor. Great video though, I'm still into the overall information, the nerdy information-seeking side of it will probably never die for me.
Hi John, how do manufacturers regard room size. I recall a recent podcast you did with Dynaudio and I was very surprised at what they regarded as being a small room. I think you say your room is 6m x 6m and you refer to it as a small room. To me that would be a large room. It would be interesting to know if manufacturers have a room size in mind when designing specific speakers.
+1 Room acoustics/treatments are a big deal, so I'm definitely in agreement. I've played around with sound diffusors in a number of reflection points, and the results have been both interesting and significant. I make my own diffusors, and in my experience the wall behind the speakers is the key one to get right, as it helps create (the illusion of) the stereo image.
A nice discussion on a difficult topic. If there is a specific problematic room mode, then a tuned membrane absorber might be a better choice that just "more" corner traps, etc. This is especially true if there are aesthetic concerns (most of us). As mentioned, RT60 doesn't really apply in small rooms used by most audiophiles. In recording studios, floor treatment isn't used because it affects the expected "natural" sound of certain instruments. For those listening to recordings, however, the situation is different and one would ideally treat the floor to eliminate SBIR (but this is difficult to do effectively short of having a recessed pit trap). Carpet only works for high frequencies but is easy and generally better than nothing.
I really dig some of the newer videos you’ve been doing. This one feels like a more polished version of some of the ideas you’ve been hashing out lately on your podcast. Nice work. Much appreciated. And a bonus bit of gratitude: even though it was a small aside, I’m very glad you called out the abundant audio a-holes who say crap like “I wouldn’t be allowed to [blank],” with the implication being that they have a disapproving “wife” constantly telling them “no.” Sexism and homophobia run deep in the audiophile world, and the ever-present myth of “WAF” is a major way that those nasty bits of the hobby keep getting passed around silently. Anyhow, thanks for that. Keep it up.
Interesting stuff. My two rooms do not seem to have a reverb issue. I am certainly not saying professional treatments would not dial the rooms in more, but for the most part, I am happy with them. Maybe I am just lucky. Thanks again.
PLEASE READ *before commenting*!
1) All comments here are moderated by a third party
2) Polite comments that advance the conversation are most welcome
3) No URLs, racist/sexist remarks or conspiracy theories, please
Every time you put out a room sound related video, I am more convinced that my next upgrade should be a really decent set of headphones. There's no way my wife is going to sign up to full room treatments. Decent headphones have to be more cost effective than decent room treatments. The other thing, room treatments won't block out the sound of my mother-in-law, headphones will, so that has to be a win win! 🤣
Headphones sound is different. I enjoy speakers much more. Probably because it's not only about hearing, but feeling as well. And yes, I'm in the same boat with room treatment, though no mother in law nearby :)
Agreed. Unless you have a home big enough to have a dedicated room... this just isn't practical. Wish I would've got into this hobby before I bought my house. Ah well. :/
It is a problem without a dedicated Room. And I tried, when my wife stated it would be the necessary actions or her. Somehow my „Darling I enjoyed our marriage, but…“ didn’t had the expected reaction. Strange. So, Headspeakers it was. Very expensive. And really great. BUT. You can guess. But better than only be free to listen, when one is home alone or at very very low volumes.
@@volkhardruhs7662 what headphones did u get?
Yep, especially if you do have a “listening” position. May as well be tied to headphones. Thing is I like sharing music as I move around the house.
When I worked as a soundman for various bands, I would clap my hands loudly a few times when I walked into the room.
Then I often cried.
I do that when looking for a new place to live.
The demonstration of those two rooms is impressive: I can hear the difference over my phone’s tiny speakers! Love you channel John. Thank you so much!
With all this pursuit of perfection it leaves one dissatisfied with what they have.
After fully treating my listening room I was just bowled over with the amount of extra information I was able to perceive. Most noticeably, the differences in acoustic environment, where the original recordings were made, jump out and force themselves to be apparent. I love to listen to the decay after a big orchestra finishes with a crescendo, and the room treatment makes this so much more accessible.
IMHO the room is just as important, if not even more so, than the equipment in use.
I' m thirty seconds into this video. And I really appreciated the disclaimer at the beginning, which made me smile. The Internet is a crazy place!
Very good advice for us who actually live in the same room as our HiFi system.
My main speakers (B&W 606 S2) sound awful in my garage. My garage speakers (Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2), at about 1/3 the price, sound GREAT in my garage. Sometimes it's the speakers, sometimes it's the room, sometimes it's the speakers in combination with the room.
I agree 100%...Ifully treated my old HT, and it made a huge difference.
This video sure helps me to now settle with what I have and to stop pursuing that elusive "better" with ever more expensive speakers. Reconfiguring my available listening spaces simply isn't an option. Thank you for helping me understand.
I’m in the same boat as you. I can’t change my room and treat it with panels. I am wondering if room correction like Dirac and RoomPerfect is the next best thing if you can’t do room treatment.
This is such a great video. Audiophiles spend so much on equipment to improve sound, but the room is so important. But the one thing I want to know is how much (generally) does it cost to professionally treat a room?
Good video for those interested in basic acoustic treatment and why it is important. From a personal perspective I have treated my entire 4.2m x 3.3m x 2.4m room with 19 GIK panels (£2.5k) of various types and measured using REW and umik mic I have an RT40 time, I still have 3 room modes at 35hz, 75hz and 130hz but DSP implemented through ROON has somewhat tamed the bass - not perfect by any means but certainly more enjoyable to listen to, speakers are Dynaudio LYD 48's and Dynaudio 18s sub using CXN v2 streamer. My preferred listening choice of electronic music has never sounded better, needless to say with that much treatment in my only living room it's no surprise i live alone. 😃
Oh boy these videos are on another level… this is by far the best video produced by John and may I say kudos to Olaf who’s also been contributing to the success of this channel. I am definitely thinking of adding some acoustic panels on my ceiling first, this should get the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) ;-)
Thinking and doing isn’t the same thing. If the WAF is still in order after you have put it ceiling panels then post a link so we can see the design and maybe get a WAF ourselves 😅
John, this was not only entertaining, but highly educational. I thank you.
You, Sir, are most welcome.
My listening room is mine to play with. And it needs some help. Lucky me! It’ll be an “art project” and not just room treatment. Check back in a year or two and I’ll send you some photos. 😃
I have a big peak in my treble response thanks to my room being very live. I use Dirac to kerb some of that energy and it works very well. I use some acoustic panels for bass and soft furniture everywhere else. Fine tune speaker placement and you can get it quite far.
A very insightful video on room acoustics that realy shows why you need acoustic treatment to achieve high quality audio.
I really appreciate the comparison between the 2 rooms! I think it helps beginners to understand what you are talking about.
This was your MOST IMPORTANT VIDEO ever. Finally, somebody who is reviewing HiFi equipment is putting some emphasis on room acoustics. For thirty years I was buying into the sales pitch, that, if I what a better sound, I need to buy more expensive HiFi equipment. For my fifties birthday I got myself a treat and bought some room treatment elements. What an eye (ear) opener!
May I present you with a challenge? I loved your approach with the raspberry pi (getting 90% of the benefit of expensive HiFi equipment for 10% of the cost). I believe the same approach would work in room acoustic treatments. From my experience absorber are way more important than diffusors. Pining some Basotect panels on the ceiling and on strategic places at the walls can get you a long way for a rather small budget, but make a huge difference. I would love for you to make a video out of this. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
Thank you John for all the work over the years on explaning so many aspects of this "hobby". Sometimes words don't paint the full picture or leave room for interpretation but examples like this really help someone like me, with limited knowlegdge to understand a bit more.
I totally agree. I learn something all the time watching Darko’s videos.
I completely agree on the importance of room treatments. Conventional wisdom says the better the room is treated, the less room correction has to do and the better the results. Low bass is the most difficult to treat, so I’m very interested in seeing whether room correction is effective (or as effective as extensive bass trapping)
Excellent advice! Your room has more profound effects to the sound than almost any component in your system.
Thank-you so much for a terrific video. I would like to learn much more about this.
Great video mate, very explanatory!
I acoustically treated my living room couple of years ago, a huge difference.
Keep up the good work!!
One of the most useful videos I have seen. The comparison was an ear opening event. We all have heard about how important the room is to your listening pleasure but I feel most people focus on the equipment first and then “look” into room treat as a possible solution. Hell people will spend money on cables, isolation products, etc. before they will look at room treatments because of the cost. Nevertheless it is an important part of creating the best possible sound from a audio system.
Wow John that was an amazing demonstration between the two rooms, and very easy to hear the reverb in your neighbours living room. I used to Dirac live via a Mini DSP SHD and I have an acoustically treated room.The thing I noticed immediately was the imaging became completely focused. I've also put 4 rather large Primacoustic bass traps in each corner of my listening room which dramatically helped my 80 Hz peak in my room. There is absolutely no doubt about it in my opinion, treating your room which essentially is the instrument your stereo system is wrapped around, is an absolute critical aspect of hearing your system as it should be sounding. And one area that is vastly overlooked by most Audiophiles.
Great video John, an excellent illustration of the difference between treated and untreated rooms.🎧🙂👍
You cannot dismiss the audiophile placement of the plants.
Yes sir, John. Acoustic treatment of a listening room is one of the very best audio tweaks and or upgrades you can do. I swear by it and thankfully my wife allows it. :)
Bravo for bugging your neighbor to prove your excellent point about reverb! That A/B between the rooms was appreciated.
its ok to make sense. its also ok to prioritize function over form on occasion. learning can in fact be considered entertainment. tyvm.
Thumb up! 👍🏻As a a musician, and sometime "sound guy", it's refreshing to see that some audiophiles finaly realize they should better invest in room treatment instead on über-expensive pure native silver AC cables and rare wood shelves to improve their experience.
Very interesting and informative John. No need to apologize for the length. Thx.
Very informative thanks. I'd never have considered that treating the ceiling makes the largest single improvement. My (obviously wrong) instinct would be the wall opposite the speakers. I learned lots today.
🤣🤣 I've only just managed to get my speakers away from the wall and in to a decent listening position.
Probably the best hifi video ive watched in a very long time. We have an acoustically horrible room, and this has given much food for thought. Thank you John!
Fantastic. All audiophiles should do this! Great video.
You can easily hear how the room actually alters the actual tone your ears hear at the end of the video when you switch between rooms with the finger snapping. This tone shift happens from the lowest lows to the highest highs and all in between. So... if your room is untreated it is actually altering the tone, therefor one can deduce that in an untreated room you are not at all hearing the actual speakers tone. This was born out in my own acoustic journey as when I finally got my room sorted (not sorted until the room ode is dealt with...) the speakers turned into a very different sound signature, a way better one. It is simply impossible to know how your gear actually truly sounds in an untreated room. Great vidi, Cheers!
There is 1 foot of mostly empty space between the ceiling and concrete of the building. So it is 9 feet instead of 8. You can put holes and ports into your ceiling to create a helmholtz resonator tuned on 340/2.4 (or 0.5 or 2 of it) to lower the major ceiling - floor resonance mode. Fyi : Sonex makes washable panels, about $7/sq.ft. i have used them for 7 years.
This is a super important vidi for everyone who does not have their room treated yet... it is the subject I've been harping on for a few years in the comments of audio vidis... Cheers!
100% agree. I made my own wall panels with rockwool and got my room down to an average of 3.3. Makes a huge difference.
On another note, was able to smooth out my bass holes in the room with my SB-2000 Pro Subwoofer software app.
Rockwool inside a living room. I wouldn’t dare it. Health above all.
John great video I treated my whole room diy. Diffusers front and back wall.Absorption on side walls.All the electronic changes I have done over the years nothing has even come close to the clarity, soundstage, room size .I have soundstage insturments 15 ft. Behind the speakers!
Great insight into room acoustics! Much appreciated!
An excellent case made for at least modest room treatments; the audio forums are filled with people comparing gear and trying to use vague words to describe audio without any control language regarding room acoustics. You have described a middle ground between going crazy and doing nothing that I think completely defeats the argument that one can do nothing and just listen to the music, as people like to say. You cannot listen to the music or a piece of gear nearly as well without room treatments. And you have demonstrated this.
John, I’m not trying to blow hot air up ur rear but I just wanted to say (even though you probably won’t read this), “That you are possibly one of the best channels on YT” & I for one always find your productions both entertaining and educational. I appreciate your efforts.
Cheers from Hobart Australia 🇦🇺👍🏻
Those houseplants are clearly making the biggest impact 🪴
Only if you adorn them with the optional googly eyes 👀
Yes! Such an important video. I have just finished treating my room after a 10 month journey of experimenting an learning. The experience I get from my hifi now is night and day. And it is impossible to ever go back to no panels. My treatment is about 5-6% of the total cost of my hifi, but is easily responsible for 50% of the goodness.
What did you do and what products?
This is the best Video that you have released and for people like me who are new hifi enthusiast wanting to get the most and learn
I will have to see the video again cause many important points u have covered and I don’t understand most terms so lot to learn . I would love see some more videos from you with regards to this more expanded ways 🙏🏻
John, one of the best “comparison” videos. Wow, night and day room to room. Super informative. Love my speakers (KEF LSX II in a super small office) However, no wonder I find my various headphones and IEMs “better” experience.
We just installed a Vicoustic system in our showroom and WOW. So so so much better.
John you don't listen in an anechoic chamber? 🤣
Great video and information as always.
Have a great rest of your weekend.
Well presented John, we are able to take a little or a lot from your observations that may be applied to our own rooms. If nothing else, the information presented is invaluable for understanding music/room interaction.
You’re always entertaining and informative, John.
I've never discounted what room treatment could do or that it had value to someone... until I watched this video, walked into my TV/Listening room and snapped my fingers around the space. I always knew I could do something to the room but was unsure if it was need. Thanks for another fantastic video, will make me look up at dull offices and appreciate how much better a drop ceiling is making a room sound.
Can’t agree with you more. Wish I didn’t ignore it for this long and could have saved me time and money switching gear when the issue was with my room.
It would be interesting to see a comparison between active and passive room corrections/treatments 😊
Huh, interesting comparisons. I frequently hear distracting room echoes in Skype conference calls, now I know what it is and how it affects my own listening. Thank you!
I just moved into a new flat and had a similar experience as the comparison in this video. The difference between my old living room (untreated but with a thousand books and stuff) and the new one (still completely empty) is like heaven and hell, especially when it comes to reverb. Just one of the occasions where I realized how much of an impact the room has when listening to music.
Thank you for an extremely helpful video. I've spent quite a bit of money on equipment when it's my room that's the problem thank you
I just snapped my fingers in my untreated listening room and it sounds like in your neighbours room.
ALRIGHTY THEN. Let's get going 😀
I was seriously looking at my room after viewing the KEF sl60’s and thinking my room really sucks for music. Then i search your channel and see this video released 6 hours ago. 😅 really nice video again! It makes me think more of buying headphones instead of speakers 🥲
Very good explanation with room to room comparisons! I ready to try ceiling mounted acoustic panels.
Really good simple insight, thanks John
Adding an absorbing acoustic panel on the side walls in line with my ears made a huge difference to the bass
Really could hear the difference - compelling stuff - but is it as much fun as a brand new shiny box !!! .... just joking ...best explanation and proof of room effects I've ever seen.
I’m sure I’m in the same position as a few others… I’m in a dedicated listening room with lots of art on the walls.
I’m really hesitant to take the art down to put up room treatment but videos like this make me want to find a happy balance.
Surely someone has designed room treatment panels that can incorporate artwork, kind of akin to an analogue Samsung Frame 😊
Not 100% sure but I think I saw personalised art panels from GIK Acoustics somewhere.
I’ll check… thanks!
Behind your paintings there should be some space to cut in and hide foam panels
These acoustic panels make it very hard to squash a mosquito.
🤣🤣
I never belived I could hear these differences. Great stuff there ! Room reverb does mess the sound after all! Keep up the good work, i love watching your videos...
Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this video. Very well done, great editing, super content. You may have saved me a lot of money by illustrating how treating your room can improve the sound incredibly. I have a great interest in learning more how treatment can help with my room problems. Probably will start with the ceiling...seems logical and least intrusive.
Moving speakers closer is a good tip! Just moved my b&w CDM-1 to my office, standing each at 1.5m away from my ears and of each other, on stands and wow does it sound better...
Great & fascinating …loved the room comparison!
My dedicated listening room is in the basement with a low ceiling and still sounds horrible with already $2,000.00 spent on diffusers and absorbers. I would need approx. another $ 5,000.00 to properly treat it but, on a fixed income, it's very difficult and would take years, so I have to listen at a very low level to avoid the room taking over!
“I can fix your room reverb” is the new “Would you like to see my etchings?” Silly quips on my part aside, I enjoy what you’re doing with the vlogs, John. I am a big fan of your great work.
Great video! I'd never even heard of RT60 before. Interesting point that room treatment is best for mids and highs and software correction is best for bass. And I was just wishfully thinking software correction could be an easy fix for everything. I agree that a lot of people feel like panels aren't that sexy/fun especially when it just seems like some overly expensive dressed up foam. A fairly basic VTM kit for a small room costs about 5 grand here in Australia. There's a huge divide between cheap/DIY but ugly solutions and aesthetic but expensive options.
Reverberation is principally a large room phenomenon, which is why one must take RT60 with a grain of salt in small rooms. Small room acoustics is dominated by reflections. The difference between specular reflections and reverb is technical enough to spoil a video. This, as written, was a great demo!
Well that was Jesco’s point that Darko quoted but the problem of reflections, flutter echo’s is of course related
LOLOLOLOL, great opening text darko. thanks for the giggle.
Crikey, I was thinking "100ms or so, that's not much to make a difference, surely?" but the contrast between your room and your neighbours was quite marked. Quite a revelation. Thanks for taking the time to do that, much appreciated
Thanks for the 101 and sometimes what is really sexy is more of an inside job & within anyway. Despite prior experience working in music venues & in recording studios, nothing landed for me more than experiencing a recent full acoustic treatment in one of my corporate spaces. A/B’d for fun the before and after with some music and the results just blew our minds.
Dear John
Could you explain if there is some sort of dependency between listening levels and certain room acoustic issues?
Maybe at lower levels some issues/frequencies are not so much of a concern?
4:50 I am sure you will find the reverb time, of say 1 second in the case you mention, is the time the reflected sound takes to decay to a certain dB level from that original signal.
In an acoustically dead room this decay is short.. in a live room this decay time is long.
Sound travels at ~330 metres per second sound does not disappear for a second before it comes back not unless the room is massive.
Edit: you explained RT60 later 👍
I think this answers the blurriness in the midrange I hear in my system to a large degree.
Genius comparison... Really palpable difference and excelent guidelines. Cheers John!
I've been working on room treatments for a few months now, and the improvements have been very apparent. But I've noticed on thing that I wasn't expecting - the sustain on notes comes across more clearly, and I the ending of notes is a lot better delineated. But yes, room treatment makes a *huge* difference, and I'm only sorry it took me so many years to learn that - this video should be essential watching for anyone who wants better sound.
What treatment did you implement?
I loved the comparison between the rooms. Great video! Can’t wait for the next one! Oh, by the way, I put an umik-1 on the wish list. Thank you John!
My living room only contains a sofa and a thin rug as less reflective furniture. The room is not much bigger than a bedroom. When I have people over and we converse at the dinner table, it sometimes feels like my ear drums pop. There is definitely that "zing" you describe and the hollowness of sound in that room. Tank you for your edutainment, it is insightful and has me thinking about my rooms
There ARE ways to treat the room without it looking like a music studio. I’m not a fan of fabric covered panels even though they do the job. I’ve been building my home studio and on the end wall (behind the speakers) I built a metal stud frame, filled it with 100mm depth rockwool, covered with thin fabric (to stop the rockwool dust) then covered the whole wall with acoustic slatted panels floor to ceiling. The slats are mounted on acoustic felt which allows the sound to pass through to the cavity behind and this gives class A performance and also some diffusion. I built bass traps in the rear corners using the same technique (also with the slatted panels). On the side walls I made 14 hexagonal frames filled with rockwool with a canvas front which is printed with artworks of my choice. In my case I chose images of iconic music artists. They are several clusters of these hexagon absorbers on different walls and I have to say that it looks awesome! I still have to work out what I’m going to do with the ceiling but I know it will also look great. So if you think that having a acoustically treated room is going to mean that visually it will be a big problem for your wife or partner, then think again! It IS possible if you just apply yourself and use your imagination.
Full disclosure, I work for BASWA, but there are a few ways to do it non-visibly
I would never risk my health by placing Rockwool in a living room. Everyone knows in DK that it is for roof only and inside the walls. Health above audio.
I haven't measured my dedicated room (5,3x3.6mx3m... about 20sqm) but since I learnt about acoustics and droped off quite a lot of treatment from GIK and others on specific areas (mainly absortion on first reflection points and diffusion somewhere else) I noticed a vast improvement on everything. Everybody thinks first on electronics and speakers but the room is greatly forgotten. PS: sorry for my english, which is not my mother language (catalan, is).
I have a room almost the same exact measures of yours... (5m x3.6m x2.8m). I have speakers on the long wall, simmetrically centered in respect to room axis; speakers are distanced 2.00m between them, front baffle 70cm from wall (1/5 room length). Listening point is detached from back wall around 1.20m (1/3 room length), formimg equilater triangle with speakers.
I have Gik Monster Traps 120x60 on back wall put in horizontal, 2x 120x60 in back angles put in vertical, and 2x 60x60 on sides first reflection point. I followed Gik indications given for free by one of their consultants. Also I have medium thickness carpet before the speakers.
I never measured but I like the results. Great homogeneity of sound in different points in the room (but obviously in listening point it is the best, I made many tries in the years). I have deep fast bass, very firm and non resonating, clear mids and great soundstage and detail. I'm quite happy withe results.
Still I haven't put any diffusion, I fear it could give more "confusion" in the sound because it's a small room.
THANK YOU... People really can benefit from fixing their room first.
I loved the disclaimer at the introduction!!
Mmm yes... *sips his tea, listening to this video with a mediocre wireless gaming headset, his music listening setup is a smartphone with M50xBT's and Spotify, literally doesn't even own speakers anymore* Education and entertaining.
In reality, as an ex-audiophile, some years ago I had a massive shift in caring about audio quality. I got tired of listening to my gear, and now I just listen to music. I've found what's good enough for me (previously mentioned), and put more time into enjoying music with what I have rather than caring about the gear. You'd be surprised what you can get used to after caring about audio for so long. Also, I'm poor. Great video though, I'm still into the overall information, the nerdy information-seeking side of it will probably never die for me.
Genius idea to use your neighbor's apartment as an acoustic test-bed. Love the A/B finger clicking test. QED
Hi John, how do manufacturers regard room size. I recall a recent podcast you did with Dynaudio and I was very surprised at what they regarded as being a small room. I think you say your room is 6m x 6m and you refer to it as a small room. To me that would be a large room. It would be interesting to know if manufacturers have a room size in mind when designing specific speakers.
Exactly! My loungest is only 3x4 mts.
I guess this falls under "micro-room?
+1 Room acoustics/treatments are a big deal, so I'm definitely in agreement. I've played around with sound diffusors in a number of reflection points, and the results have been both interesting and significant. I make my own diffusors, and in my experience the wall behind the speakers is the key one to get right, as it helps create (the illusion of) the stereo image.
A nice discussion on a difficult topic.
If there is a specific problematic room mode, then a tuned membrane absorber might be a better choice that just "more" corner traps, etc. This is especially true if there are aesthetic concerns (most of us).
As mentioned, RT60 doesn't really apply in small rooms used by most audiophiles.
In recording studios, floor treatment isn't used because it affects the expected "natural" sound of certain instruments. For those listening to recordings, however, the situation is different and one would ideally treat the floor to eliminate SBIR (but this is difficult to do effectively short of having a recessed pit trap). Carpet only works for high frequencies but is easy and generally better than nothing.
I really dig some of the newer videos you’ve been doing. This one feels like a more polished version of some of the ideas you’ve been hashing out lately on your podcast. Nice work. Much appreciated.
And a bonus bit of gratitude: even though it was a small aside, I’m very glad you called out the abundant audio a-holes who say crap like “I wouldn’t be allowed to [blank],” with the implication being that they have a disapproving “wife” constantly telling them “no.” Sexism and homophobia run deep in the audiophile world, and the ever-present myth of “WAF” is a major way that those nasty bits of the hobby keep getting passed around silently. Anyhow, thanks for that. Keep it up.
Hell yeah! You could really hear that 👍
Yep -- you really can!
House of Love is amazing, also bands like Ride, and The Ocean Blue!
Nice video and nice measurements. REW also allow to test DIY panels well.
Big fan off the the house of love. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Interesting stuff. My two rooms do not seem to have a reverb issue. I am certainly not saying professional treatments would not dial the rooms in more, but for the most part, I am happy with them. Maybe I am just lucky. Thanks again.