You should think about shear-pins to prevent runaway and damage to the drives or screws. What brought that thought about was the shear-pin on the lead screw of my new Clausing 5914 lathe. Just a thought.
Oh man, so glad to learn the holes in the servos were clearance holes. My brain was hurting trying to figure out how you were going to thread those in, had figured you could thread them all the way through, since 5 is smaller than 6, and then you put them in the end of the gantry... 😅
I have used clear PETG filament as a light pipe to get LED indication to the outside of boxes. You can also use home audio optic cables for this. With some 3D printed holders you can make this work and not modify the electronics. Hope this helps. Great work!!
Oh, that's a very interesting idea. It would be pretty easy to modify the side plate of the C86ACCP mount to hold a Toslink cable in the right position.
@@chrisvarrin5819 yeah- I work in IT and tried that. I had better luck with the fillament and home audio cable. It may have been my fault... I seem to recall the larger diameter of the filament and audio cables helped. Whatever works for you!!!
You showed your hand. Your hand was positioned over the servo programmers best friend. The E-STOP was always covered with a hand ready to depress at the slightest possible malfunction. We fabricated and programmed high speed packaging equipment. This was in the early 1990's. One system had 5 different communication systems within one machine. Things have sure come a long way. That machine is finally being removed summer of 2022. That sure is nice when you can rotate your panel up. I modified my Crossfire, added my own floating Z, scribe, and extension kit. I left the panel where if was from the factory. Laying on the shop floor is not fun.
This is my build, too! Benchtop Pro, clearpaths, and acorn. I just drilled out the mounting holes in the clearpath faceplate a TINY bit and mounted them as-is without making studs, but either way :) Also built my own control box, which I know you are going to show later as well. Great setup!
My favorite CNC channel! Loved your stepper/servo content. I recently finished a 4x4 build and used several of your videos to help during the build. Keep it up!
It's a system I haven't seen before. They snake through the moving shoe under quite a bit of tension. I would have expected the path to be straight, but I guess not.
Another great build, thanks for taking us along for the ride. Very pleasing to watch you work. To neaten up the proxi cables get yourself an I/O Block with single multi-core cable going back to the control cabinet. This does mean that your gland plate with the M12 connectors is not really needed anymore, your call. You could use a single 8-pin M12 connector to accomplish this. As for the proximity sensors, check that they are Factor 1 or +UProx that will well with non-ferrous metals with very little range de-rating. Shout if you need more info.
Hi Coming from Mach 3, I love the Acorn , I use the DMM & DNY2s drives & servos on my 30 x42 router DIY. I also use Metrol NC limit switches , got rid of the Prox switches. Acorn just works IMO
It was actually a pleasure to see you and your wife do some workouts with the weight lifting. Thanks for leaving these clips in. Hopefully this will not go unnoticed by the other youtube machinist maker channels who could definitely do with a bit of trimming of their physique.
@@Clough42 I remember you mentioning once that you didn't like the way you looked after seeing yourself on video. I really admire you for taking that decision and sticking with it. You're inspirational in many ways and I hope you will continue to find the time and effort to share your world with us.
Machine build is looking great. Love how everything is re-engineered from standard. I have like doing that too. Can always make it better is a great mantra.
I have almost this exact same setup on a 4x8 Pro Avid. The proximity setup is probably the weakest link in the setup to me. It works fine once you get it setup, but because they are setup as "all home", they cant also act as hard limit switches when jogging the machine, so it is possible to crash it if you forget to home it before moving it. I don't know what you are planning for probing macros, but I bought the probeapp for the CNC12 and it is really nice. I have the standard AVID touch plate, but you can set it up for all types of probes, including the centroid KP-3. I am interested to see how you get that plate planar with the gantry. I was thinking it might make sense to get a piece of plate aluminum to mount to the machine, deck that, and then put the surface plate on top of that, then you will know that it is flat and parallel. Then all you have to do is run a indicator across the front of the plate, and tune the auto squaring till the gantry is parallel with the front of the plate. Oh, and I just took 30 seconds and drilled the servo mounting holes out...worked like a charm...lol
James, I am speechless with your abilities to program, create and acquire this amazing equipment. You are an inspiration to those of us thinking of moving into the home cnc arena. Thank you for your videos.
You are going to want an enclosure for that, chips all around the shop. It gets really old really fast. The ball screws don’t sound too hot, actually sound horrible, or it’s just the resonance from the extruded frame. Flood coolant is a must if you are going to get any meaningful material removal rate out of it.
The machine is sitting on top of my welding table, which has a metal pegboard full of clamps, and a plasma table full of loose metal slats, and they're all vibrating.
@@Clough42 Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Will be interesting to see and hear the nachine fully operational. That fixture system looks nice, need to check it out.
Just watched a vid from breakingtaps cutting a36 steel with respectable results. I think a spindle better matched to lower rpms would improve the performance enough to tackle stainless and 4140.
Avid machines are great. We have an 8x4 and a 4x4 pro version in our shop. For the 4x4 we installed a Masso and Nema23 Clearpaths with gearboxes. It works beautifully. But...tuning the y axis servos properly had us busy for a while.
I'm running NEMA23 steppers on my 2x3 Benchtop Pro and have never wanted for more speed, or power. I can only imagine the chooch that those servos provide!
hey James, Darren from Halifax uk. if you go to your local diesel repair shop or hydraulics repair shop they use these little plastic cups of various sizes depths and diameters to put on the ends of injectors and in the ports of hydraulic rams to stop debris going in and i bet you could 700 of the size you need to plug them holes for very little cost. just a thought.
Did you finish this build and we're there any follow up videos. There are Centroid router users looking to see how to setup a part and cut on the router.
my only concern with this style router has always been the same , Noise.. There comes a frequency where the extrusions act as tuning forks. yes this can be offset with filling the extrusions with sand or cement. I know this is top of the line and those extrusions look way heavier than the stuff on amazon , so this may not be an issue , awesome looking machine !
In my experience, it hasn't been a big problem with the Avid stuff - the linear rails themselves dampen the vibrations, and the mix of steel / aluminum across the board helps further prevent resonance. Now, Non-ATC spindles are very annoying after a while...
Awesome machine! Congrats on having it come together. You have put a tremendous amount of work into this! Very cool to see all the steps involved in constructing a custom/upgraded machine like this. Thanks you so much for your thorough explanations, beautiful videos and for making my brain smoke! Another 500 views and I will start to understand it! : )
18:20 servos should all be mounted with the cables on the bottom to help prevent ingress. Check my avid build if you're interested. 21:20 I strongly suggest hardstop homming with the servos instead of using the inductive sensors. I just use the sensors as an estop safety feature. An estop / enable latching relay is good for homming the servos. (home on first enable) hardstop homming will go to the same clocked position on the encoder each time so it's much more repeatable. You can offset the y servos differnetly in the clearpath software to square the gantry. Also, as you may know, the servos run better with stiffnes turned up and you may need to do multiple tunes to get a good one. Tune x then copy to y1 and y2. 32:26 you can set the max torque to disable the motor like crash detection, either in max torque, or use the HLFB IO output and set to for out of position. It has saved me from breaking bits, parts, and the tool length sensor. It's incredibly fast acting. My 4x HLFB go into an arduino that acts as a 0.1ms buffer incase there is noise. IIRC the out of position is set to about 20 counts. It will mainly go out of position during rapids under normal operating conditions so that is the factor to consider when tuning that value. -Ken
Super awesome! Can't wait to see the tuning and first chips! Also curious to see how the FM30 works for you on the Avid. I like my S30C, but the higher torque on the FM30 looks wonderful for steel. Coincidentally, I'm in the middle of some spring tweaking of my machine and it's shaping up to look a lot like yours. Most notably clearpaths and an SMC fixture plate, and contemplating ditching Mach for an Acorn or similar. 🙂 I'm the most stoked about ditching the steppers though, I've definitely seen missed steps at high feeds. Particularly when doing a lot of small/fast Z moves (like on a 3D contour). Great work, really been enjoying this series! Your electrical cabinets are a thing of beauty, I wish I was organized enough to put one together that nice :)
I'm really anxious, too. I autotuned the motors over the weekend, and now I think the gains are a little hot. I'm getting some oscillation during slow (10IPM) moves.
Not sure if you are still monitoring comments on this video? But I have 2 questions about the build as I have been building my control box using the Acorn Card, I see that you used the Avid NPN NO switches, was there any issues using those in hindsight? I need to go back and look at the schematic, but I believe there is a difference in wiring them is that correct? Thanks Your is the best video on setting up an Acorn Card!
hey there, love your job on the case, i'm doing the same and if you want to have any inside light visible from outside, use optic fibre like stuff, just print a support for it and job done, hope to see it in the next vid, enjoy!
I’m planning on using clear path servos for a mill build as well. How accurate is your homing sequence? I’m on the fence of using DMM servos because they use encoders with a home reference point to preform a very accurate homing sequence. I’ve read about the hard stop method of homing with clear path but I’m worried about build up of chips of gunk that would cause repeatability problems. Can you give any advise or opinion your willing to share?
The homing sequence on the mill today is as accurate as the proximity sensors. I discussed the hard-stop homing sequence with the applications team at Teknik, and it sounds like it works pretty well. The Centroid Acorn isn't set up to use that method by default, and since I have the end stops and the gantry squaring routine expects to use them, I just went with what was easy. If I had to guess, I would think the ClearPath stuff would work well. Everything else about their product is top notch.
That is an awesome piece of machinery. And yes, you will be able to cut steel on it. I have an equally beefy Sorotec router with 180W JMC servos and a 30k rpm 3HP spindle and recently had to make a few bigger parts out of mild steel and was pleasantly surprised how well that worked. So with these beefy Nema 34 servos, your spindle will be the limit. But I believe it is a 12k rpm spindle, so it will have sufficient torque for steel. I would recomment 2 additions however: 1. Something to protect the open Y-axis drag chain from accumulating chips (especially steel and aluminum) 2. Some 3D-printed covers for the Y-axis limit switch connectors. I find them to sit rather prone and at least in my shop there would be a high risk that I bump a heavier work piece into them...
Both excellent suggestions. Thoughts on a good way to protect the drag chain? In my head, I'm imagining a zip-on cover like you might see on a water-cooled TIG torch hose set.
@@Clough42 Depending on the final location of the router, in a permanent enclosure you could just place a plexi shield between the chain and the gantry. It might not be too much in the way. A zip-on cover (if you find one that fits tightly) might have to deal with the different inner and outer radii. Fixed with zip-ties it probaby would kill the sexy looks of the machine. More elegantly could be little 3D-printed snap on covers, which go on top of the chain, inbetween the litte tabs, that can be opend to access the cables. The moving angle of the chain looks not to be more than 30-40 deg and apart from 5 or 6 chain links, most of them are stationary during movement anyways...
Nice video! Every time I’ve used clear paths (3 machines), I’ve just set them up to home to hard stops. They can home to even a rubber stop consistently.
That works for homing the motors, but I'm not sure how exactly that interacts with the Acorn control. Perhaps I'll investigate that someday as a way to get a fourth axis on a dual-drive gantry machine.
Great video -- I also have an Avid pro machine with a CNC Depot ATC spindle (mine is the SC30). And my machine uses Centroid also. You mentioned in the video you'd like to set up automatic tool change in the future -- did you ever do that? I've tried on my machine but the M6 macro hasn't worked reliably -- I mean the M6 macro I had to create based on their stock example versions. Please let me know, thanks!
I have the exact same Avid machine w/ NEMA23's; been running it for 2 years now. It's plenty rigid wrt cutting steel, but my electronics boxes are mounted underneath the machine so no coolant possible in that config -- may change the set-up. I wasn't aware that Saunders has a bed kit specifically for the BTP2424 ... now I'll get to spend more money (thanks). I've also been looking at the ClearPath servo's, but the retrofit is intimidating (just like everything else I've done before I just did it ... so maybe). Thanks for the video; very instructive.
Thanks! I think the appropriateness of the ClearPath has a lot to do with financial resources. If you have the cash or if the machine is going to earn its keep, they're pretty nice. If it's just a hobby, they're a bit of a stretch.
@@Clough42 My machine def doesn't earn it's keep. I like the idea of closing the loop on position, but I'm cutting primarily cast acrylic and Al so I'm not missing steps with reasonable feeds & speeds. I hope to see more content with the BTP2424; I always learn something.
Don't forget to do a vid of when you autotune the clearpath servos. Is you little grizzly mill too small and limited to take advantage of the powerful spindle? Are you going to convert the grizzly back to its original spindle?
The grizzly works fine with the spindle, for what it is. But the high-speed spindle can't really take advantage of the rigidity of the mill, because it can't swing big tools or run slow enough to really drill and hog steel.
I am very interested to see how you'll optimize the auto squaring script. I am thinking about upgrading my controller to acorn and I also have a dual Y axis configuration. I see that you've had to resort to a software auto-squaring script and am curious how the wiring of the endstops in centroid will allow for a "hardware" approach to the squaring procedure.
This is so cool! I have the same machine but in a 3x3 with the stock steppers. (They made the 3x3 custom, not offered on their website). I’d love to have those clearpath servos, my only concern is crash my machine on occasion and it just stalls the steppers when that happens. Especially since chips can get behind those way covers, and when they accumulate a little bit then the machine will pack them into the end and eventually not be able to reach the end stop switch anymore (and instead just smoosh a big climb of chips). It happens surprisingly quick when I’m machining aluminum, I swear I’m not a slob haha. But anyway, when that happens the steppers just stall and there’s no harm done. What happens if you do that with a servo? Is there a way to make the servos torque-out before something breaks? In my opinion, it’s inevitable that you’ll crash that machine someday. Curious what happens then.
You can set a torque limit on the motors. Of course, then you run the risk of torqueing out and having it stop when cutting. I think the Clearpath motors are pretty easy to monitor, and they log max torque events so it should be possible to set this well. I have been a little concerned looking at the dust covers. I expected them to seal better than they do. I'm thinking it might make sense to remove the lower shields on the Y axes to let chips fall out, but I think it has a lot to do with what solution I end up with for chip clearing and an enclosure.
@@Clough42 ah the max torque feature makes sense. FWIW, I’ve never stalled my motors during a cut and I’ve pushed it really hard. I lose rigidity before I stall the motors, so I’d think there’s definitely a torque value there that’ll stop the servos before it breaks the machine, but not mess with your cutting operations. Removing the bottom red steel covers is brilliant! I can’t believe I didn’t think of that haha. I’m definitely going to try that on the Y axis. It hasn’t been much of a problem with the X, so I’ll probably leave that one on.
James should the machine home be set at the right rear and the work home be set at the front left for "normal " CNC setup another great video. This machine looks a lot more powerful than my Workbee which is powerful enough to cut aluminum without a problem
I think you can set the machine home anywhere you want. I kind of think the left rear is convenient, so the gantry will be parked out of the way of loading the work, but the default on this machine is to home in the left front. It can be set up any way you like, though. The one downside of homing in the back left is that the Y machine coordinate is always negative. The work coordinate varies from job to job and is usually zeroed on the workpiece.
Just re-watching as I am in the process of swapping out my smaller Parker Z stage for the AVID Z and noticed you have an adapter for the NEMA 34 CP. I'm using my old NEMA 23 CP until the 34 shows up, but it looks as though the AVID mount accepts either; is the adapter a requirement?? (also curious about which 34 CP you chose as a sanity check). oh duh. You said you mounted a brake, didn't you. Sorry, never mind :)
Weakest link in the machine is the 6mm plate the linear bearings are attached to. Unless this has been revised. I'd suggest some blue threadlocker on the studs going into the plate. 😁John a SMW is great to work with. Fixture plates are awesome.
You mean the aluminum extrusions that run the length of the axis, or the 9mm motor mount plates that screw into the ends of those extrusions with 6mm screws? In my experience so far, those end plates are a real weak point. These servos will hit the bumpers, compress them completely, and bend the screws holding those plates on. In the event of a crash, I expect they'll separate from the machine completely.
@@rc-cnc3431 ahh...the plate behind the dust cover. You may be right about that from a flexibility standpoint. I didn't look closely when I had it apart.
Watching this again, I just noticed that he's using the pro version of CNC12, because axis-pairing is disabled in the free version. For those people, you can use the C86 add-on board, which provides the option of hardware-connected axis pairing. In that case however, the same command is always sent to both servos, so squaring the axis via software is not possible.
My shop is now temperature controlled, but I used it for seventeen years prior to that where the temperature varied between freezing and over 100F (38C). It was still attached to the house, though, so it wasn't as bad as it would have been in a detached shop. The biggest problem I noticed was that way oil on the machines got very sticky and viscous when it was cold.
Hi James, this build is very similar to mine - clearpaths with a custom ATC setup and the SMW fixture plate. I went down the Masso route so curious to see how this setup works. I also went with a Fogbuster which has been great. I've been quite happy with my machine but I made some modifications to the Z axis, notably shortening the spindle mounting plate on a bandsaw so I could have the bearings as close to the X axis as possible for maximum rigidity. Just a note on some things - you may find your X axis is making contact with the riser plates at the bottom, I filed this away so I could get a perfectly flat mounting surface. You may also wish to recalibrate the alignment of the rails, though mine wasn't far out. I did tweak mine a bit. I went with a Jianken spindle which has been wonderful. I also have some details on my tool rack on my Instagram if you're interested. I think UA-cam will filter out my comment if I link to it but if you search for 'OutpostWorkshopUK' you should find me there and details of my build. Looking forward to seeing how you get on!
Thanks for the pointers. I currently have the spindle mounted (spoilers) so the physical end of the spindle is even with the end of the Z axis T-slot extrusion to try to optimize clearance. I need to see how the geometry all works out, but if I understand correctly, you shortened the extrusion so the spindle is mounted closer to the linear rail bearings inside the slide, while still maintaining clearance? I will consider this, once I figure out how much reach I have with the tools. I have the fixture surface mounted in the second-to-lowest position, and I need to make sure I can still reach everything with the tools.
@@Clough42 That's exactly right! As you say, I shortened the extrusion to allow clearance as I found it was too long with the spindle in my preferred position - I brought the spindle up as much as possible while having enough room to reach my bed if needed. I found this increased the rigidity quite a bit. I also switched over to one of the Chinese spindle mounts as I wasn't a fan of the stock Avid one with the spindle I chose, which admittedly is pretty ridiculous with hindsight - a 20KG Jianken spindle. I reduced my acceleration quite a bit as I didn't want to harm the mechanics while throwing it around. I don't think you'll have any issues with the CNC depot spindle as the mounting seems much more rigid from what I remember! Anyway, it does take quite a mean chip out of aluminium now, I've been quite impressed! Also, the detail for the bits I'm making has been excellent. If I did it again I'd probably go for a lighter spindle though!
Awesome. Looking great so far. Was seriously looking at buying one of the Avid PRO CNC kits last year... but maybe when I get a bigger shop/more space.. lol
Nice machine, I built the same machine as well using nema 34 steppers , mach3 and a 4" kurt vise. not as rigid as I would like, the steppers work fine for me , when cutting aluminum you must go slow and get an OK finish
I'm very curious to see how it works. I have found that the 12Krpm spindle with aluminum-specific variable-flute cutting tools to be pretty smooth on other machines. I'm expecting resonance to be the biggest factor.
"It's way overkill and it's glorious" I Love It!
You should think about shear-pins to prevent runaway and damage to the drives or screws. What brought that thought about was the shear-pin on the lead screw of my new Clausing 5914 lathe. Just a thought.
There is no such thing as "overkill" in the work shop. It´s just a myth.
Very nice tool.
For me time, energy and money are usually underkill, so overkill every chance I get.
Oh man, so glad to learn the holes in the servos were clearance holes. My brain was hurting trying to figure out how you were going to thread those in, had figured you could thread them all the way through, since 5 is smaller than 6, and then you put them in the end of the gantry... 😅
What an impressive arsenal is coming together in your "home shop"! I'm a bit jealous (just a little bit!).
Enjoy your new toy!
James won't have space to do his dead lifts anymore in the near future..
I have used clear PETG filament as a light pipe to get LED indication to the outside of boxes. You can also use home audio optic cables for this. With some 3D printed holders you can make this work and not modify the electronics. Hope this helps. Great work!!
Nice idea.
@@v8Mercury Thanks!
Oh, that's a very interesting idea. It would be pretty easy to modify the side plate of the C86ACCP mount to hold a Toslink cable in the right position.
I have used commercial fiber optic light pipes and panel mount bezels with a 3D printed holder to position the light pipes over SMD LEDs. Works great.
@@chrisvarrin5819 yeah- I work in IT and tried that. I had better luck with the fillament and home audio cable. It may have been my fault... I seem to recall the larger diameter of the filament and audio cables helped. Whatever works for you!!!
Renae doing her thing and lifting was so cool 💪🏼👍🏼
Anyone else hear TIE Fighters when the machine is in full rapid? Can't wait to see what you do with this machine!
Yeah, that was my thought, as well. I think I mentioned it in an Instagram post.
I love how thorough and clear your videos are.
You are awesome. We are about to the acorn. Super excited
You showed your hand. Your hand was positioned over the servo programmers best friend. The E-STOP was always covered with a hand ready to depress at the slightest possible malfunction. We fabricated and programmed high speed packaging equipment. This was in the early 1990's. One system had 5 different communication systems within one machine. Things have sure come a long way. That machine is finally being removed summer of 2022.
That sure is nice when you can rotate your panel up. I modified my Crossfire, added my own floating Z, scribe, and extension kit. I left the panel where if was from the factory. Laying on the shop floor is not fun.
Nice to see some SMW stuff in the wild, I have followed John since his first Tormach
He's done well for himself. I'm happy to support his business.
This is my build, too! Benchtop Pro, clearpaths, and acorn. I just drilled out the mounting holes in the clearpath faceplate a TINY bit and mounted them as-is without making studs, but either way :) Also built my own control box, which I know you are going to show later as well. Great setup!
The control box was in previous videos.
Those 5 to 6 mm studs were smart. Congrats on the new machine. I'm wondering whether you'll need an enclosure in addition to the stand.
Yeah. This thing will make an aluminum snowstorm in the shop.
Seconding this, that's a super clever solution.
My favorite CNC channel! Loved your stepper/servo content. I recently finished a 4x4 build and used several of your videos to help during the build. Keep it up!
Very cool. I struggled to figure out how their way covers worked since they first came out but I finally saw in this video. Thanks.
It's a system I haven't seen before. They snake through the moving shoe under quite a bit of tension. I would have expected the path to be straight, but I guess not.
You have a lot going on in a 2-1/2 stall garage. I think that's great. Your ingenuity is something to be admired. Nice job, James.
They call it a 3-car garage, but it's sure starting to feel smaller than that. :)
You will be really happy with those clear paths. I love mine, they are very good motors.
Very nice! Looking forward to seeing some chips flying. Thanks for sharing!
Enjoyed….looking forward to future videos…
Another great build, thanks for taking us along for the ride. Very pleasing to watch you work. To neaten up the proxi cables get yourself an I/O Block with single multi-core cable going back to the control cabinet. This does mean that your gland plate with the M12 connectors is not really needed anymore, your call. You could use a single 8-pin M12 connector to accomplish this. As for the proximity sensors, check that they are Factor 1 or +UProx that will well with non-ferrous metals with very little range de-rating. Shout if you need more info.
Very shinny! The satisfaction level is tangible!
This is the machine ive been drooling over. My Next Wave Piranha isn't cutting it anymore. Love the video.
Hi Coming from Mach 3, I love the Acorn , I use the DMM & DNY2s drives & servos on my 30 x42 router DIY. I also use Metrol NC limit switches , got rid of the Prox switches. Acorn just works IMO
That machine is a dream... 😳😃
Enjoy it 🙂
Great video, can’t wait to see this baby run, Thanks a lot for all that you do.
What a cool setup
Looks great, time for making a part.
I need a spindle for that. :)
@@Clough42 LOL Minor Details.
11:34 you will love those motors, I have a single NEMA 34 / 1400 oz on my plaz table that that throws the 400 lb gantry around like its nothing..
hi, your channel became one of my favourite. Well done :-)
Looking forward to the alignment videos!
That’s an awesome CNC machine you have there. It makes my CNC machine look like it a homebuilt machine…which it is.
It was actually a pleasure to see you and your wife do some workouts with the weight lifting. Thanks for leaving these clips in. Hopefully this will not go unnoticed by the other youtube machinist maker channels who could definitely do with a bit of trimming of their physique.
Some of the others of which you speak were part of my motivation for starting.
@@Clough42 I remember you mentioning once that you didn't like the way you looked after seeing yourself on video. I really admire you for taking that decision and sticking with it. You're inspirational in many ways and I hope you will continue to find the time and effort to share your world with us.
Excellent work, looking foward to seing it cut.
Machine build is looking great. Love how everything is re-engineered from standard. I have like doing that too. Can always make it better is a great mantra.
I drilled mine out back in 2016 but I didn't have a lathe handy... great answer
I have almost this exact same setup on a 4x8 Pro Avid. The proximity setup is probably the weakest link in the setup to me. It works fine once you get it setup, but because they are setup as "all home", they cant also act as hard limit switches when jogging the machine, so it is possible to crash it if you forget to home it before moving it. I don't know what you are planning for probing macros, but I bought the probeapp for the CNC12 and it is really nice. I have the standard AVID touch plate, but you can set it up for all types of probes, including the centroid KP-3.
I am interested to see how you get that plate planar with the gantry. I was thinking it might make sense to get a piece of plate aluminum to mount to the machine, deck that, and then put the surface plate on top of that, then you will know that it is flat and parallel. Then all you have to do is run a indicator across the front of the plate, and tune the auto squaring till the gantry is parallel with the front of the plate.
Oh, and I just took 30 seconds and drilled the servo mounting holes out...worked like a charm...lol
I wasn't aware of probeapp. I'll have to check that out.
James, I am speechless with your abilities to program, create and acquire this amazing equipment. You are an inspiration to those of us thinking of moving into the home cnc arena. Thank you for your videos.
You are going to want an enclosure for that, chips all around the shop. It gets really old really fast. The ball screws don’t sound too hot, actually sound horrible, or it’s just the resonance from the extruded frame. Flood coolant is a must if you are going to get any meaningful material removal rate out of it.
The machine is sitting on top of my welding table, which has a metal pegboard full of clamps, and a plasma table full of loose metal slats, and they're all vibrating.
@@Clough42 Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Will be interesting to see and hear the nachine fully operational. That fixture system looks nice, need to check it out.
Everything is so clean! I got a lot to learn I guess my router setup isn't nearly as clean the controller on a cart and all its jus nice 👌
Just watched a vid from breakingtaps cutting a36 steel with respectable results. I think a spindle better matched to lower rpms would improve the performance enough to tackle stainless and 4140.
I have the S30C on my Avid machine. Love both
So, if you could only have the avid with the clear path and Acorn controller and an ATC or a Tormach 440PCNC which would you pick?
Avid machines are great. We have an 8x4 and a 4x4 pro version in our shop. For the 4x4 we installed a Masso and Nema23 Clearpaths with gearboxes. It works beautifully. But...tuning the y axis servos properly had us busy for a while.
Any probs with chips or grinding/plasma dust in your gymshop, shopgym?
I'm running NEMA23 steppers on my 2x3 Benchtop Pro and have never wanted for more speed, or power. I can only imagine the chooch that those servos provide!
hey James, Darren from Halifax uk.
if you go to your local diesel repair shop or hydraulics repair shop they use these little plastic cups of various sizes depths and diameters to put on the ends of injectors and in the ports of hydraulic rams to stop debris going in and i bet you could 700 of the size you need to plug them holes for very little cost. just a thought.
Did you finish this build and we're there any follow up videos. There are Centroid router users looking to see how to setup a part and cut on the router.
Cover the unused holes with silicone baking mats 👍🏻 they are dirt cheap, and you can easily cut them to fit specific jobs if need be
I would be concerned about them lifting if the air from the mist nozzle caught an edge.
All I can say is wow. Nice work!!! I would love to have a machine like this.
You and me both!
Very fancy. Thanks for the video.
my only concern with this style router has always been the same , Noise.. There comes a frequency where the extrusions act as tuning forks. yes this can be offset with filling the extrusions with sand or cement. I know this is top of the line and those extrusions look way heavier than the stuff on amazon , so this may not be an issue , awesome looking machine !
We'll see. Using servos should help with some of the singing, but the spindle could still easily set up a resonance.
In my experience, it hasn't been a big problem with the Avid stuff - the linear rails themselves dampen the vibrations, and the mix of steel / aluminum across the board helps further prevent resonance. Now, Non-ATC spindles are very annoying after a while...
Polymer Concrete.
@@alexwbakker Yeah, I can imagine. Got that covered.
Loved this video. Really well done with a Beautiful machine. I'm looking forward to more on this machine. Thanks
Awesome machine! Congrats on having it come together. You have put a tremendous amount of work into this! Very cool to see all the steps involved in constructing a custom/upgraded machine like this. Thanks you so much for your thorough explanations, beautiful videos and for making my brain smoke! Another 500 views and I will start to understand it! : )
Interesting - even if I really don't want to spend more time using computers when I'm machining, that setup looks quite cool.
I feel this way, too a lot of the time. It's part of why I bought a knee mill and didn't convert it.
18:20 servos should all be mounted with the cables on the bottom to help prevent ingress. Check my avid build if you're interested.
21:20 I strongly suggest hardstop homming with the servos instead of using the inductive sensors. I just use the sensors as an estop safety feature. An estop / enable latching relay is good for homming the servos. (home on first enable) hardstop homming will go to the same clocked position on the encoder each time so it's much more repeatable. You can offset the y servos differnetly in the clearpath software to square the gantry.
Also, as you may know, the servos run better with stiffnes turned up and you may need to do multiple tunes to get a good one. Tune x then copy to y1 and y2.
32:26 you can set the max torque to disable the motor like crash detection, either in max torque, or use the HLFB IO output and set to for out of position. It has saved me from breaking bits, parts, and the tool length sensor. It's incredibly fast acting. My 4x HLFB go into an arduino that acts as a 0.1ms buffer incase there is noise. IIRC the out of position is set to about 20 counts. It will mainly go out of position during rapids under normal operating conditions so that is the factor to consider when tuning that value.
-Ken
Wow great work
Keep up the great videos James! I always look forward to a new video every Saturday.
would be interesting to see a stiffness comparison with the G704. You can easily do this with a DTI. My Guess is the Avid is not as stiff.
same guess
Your intro lighting was on point.
Thanks! I've been experimenting.
Super awesome! Can't wait to see the tuning and first chips! Also curious to see how the FM30 works for you on the Avid. I like my S30C, but the higher torque on the FM30 looks wonderful for steel. Coincidentally, I'm in the middle of some spring tweaking of my machine and it's shaping up to look a lot like yours. Most notably clearpaths and an SMC fixture plate, and contemplating ditching Mach for an Acorn or similar. 🙂 I'm the most stoked about ditching the steppers though, I've definitely seen missed steps at high feeds. Particularly when doing a lot of small/fast Z moves (like on a 3D contour). Great work, really been enjoying this series! Your electrical cabinets are a thing of beauty, I wish I was organized enough to put one together that nice :)
I'm really anxious, too. I autotuned the motors over the weekend, and now I think the gains are a little hot. I'm getting some oscillation during slow (10IPM) moves.
@@Clough42 I've had to retune, apparently it's common. I tuned at 100% torque. turned stiffness up and its rigid and smooth.
Not sure if you are still monitoring comments on this video? But I have 2 questions about the build as I have been building my control box using the Acorn Card, I see that you used the Avid NPN NO switches, was there any issues using those in hindsight? I need to go back and look at the schematic, but I believe there is a difference in wiring them is that correct?
Thanks Your is the best video on setting up an Acorn Card!
I really look forward to the alignment of the machine. Please spend some extra time on that issue.
I have the same clearpath on my zx45 and I love them.
hey there, love your job on the case, i'm doing the same and if you want to have any inside light visible from outside, use optic fibre like stuff, just print a support for it and job done, hope to see it in the next vid, enjoy!
I’m planning on using clear path servos for a mill build as well. How accurate is your homing sequence? I’m on the fence of using DMM servos because they use encoders with a home reference point to preform a very accurate homing sequence. I’ve read about the hard stop method of homing with clear path but I’m worried about build up of chips of gunk that would cause repeatability problems. Can you give any advise or opinion your willing to share?
The homing sequence on the mill today is as accurate as the proximity sensors. I discussed the hard-stop homing sequence with the applications team at Teknik, and it sounds like it works pretty well. The Centroid Acorn isn't set up to use that method by default, and since I have the end stops and the gantry squaring routine expects to use them, I just went with what was easy. If I had to guess, I would think the ClearPath stuff would work well. Everything else about their product is top notch.
That is an awesome piece of machinery.
And yes, you will be able to cut steel on it. I have an equally beefy Sorotec router with 180W JMC servos and a 30k rpm 3HP spindle and recently had to make a few bigger parts out of mild steel and was pleasantly surprised how well that worked. So with these beefy Nema 34 servos, your spindle will be the limit. But I believe it is a 12k rpm spindle, so it will have sufficient torque for steel.
I would recomment 2 additions however:
1. Something to protect the open Y-axis drag chain from accumulating chips (especially steel and aluminum)
2. Some 3D-printed covers for the Y-axis limit switch connectors. I find them to sit rather prone and at least in my shop there would be a high risk that I bump a heavier work piece into them...
Both excellent suggestions. Thoughts on a good way to protect the drag chain? In my head, I'm imagining a zip-on cover like you might see on a water-cooled TIG torch hose set.
@@Clough42 Depending on the final location of the router, in a permanent enclosure you could just place a plexi shield between the chain and the gantry. It might not be too much in the way. A zip-on cover (if you find one that fits tightly) might have to deal with the different inner and outer radii. Fixed with zip-ties it probaby would kill the sexy looks of the machine. More elegantly could be little 3D-printed snap on covers, which go on top of the chain, inbetween the litte tabs, that can be opend to access the cables. The moving angle of the chain looks not to be more than 30-40 deg and apart from 5 or 6 chain links, most of them are stationary during movement anyways...
Nice video! Every time I’ve used clear paths (3 machines), I’ve just set them up to home to hard stops. They can home to even a rubber stop consistently.
That works for homing the motors, but I'm not sure how exactly that interacts with the Acorn control. Perhaps I'll investigate that someday as a way to get a fourth axis on a dual-drive gantry machine.
Beautiful
Great video -- I also have an Avid pro machine with a CNC Depot ATC spindle (mine is the SC30). And my machine uses Centroid also. You mentioned in the video you'd like to set up automatic tool change in the future -- did you ever do that? I've tried on my machine but the M6 macro hasn't worked reliably -- I mean the M6 macro I had to create based on their stock example versions. Please let me know, thanks!
I have the exact same Avid machine w/ NEMA23's; been running it for 2 years now. It's plenty rigid wrt cutting steel, but my electronics boxes are mounted underneath the machine so no coolant possible in that config -- may change the set-up. I wasn't aware that Saunders has a bed kit specifically for the BTP2424 ... now I'll get to spend more money (thanks). I've also been looking at the ClearPath servo's, but the retrofit is intimidating (just like everything else I've done before I just did it ... so maybe). Thanks for the video; very instructive.
Thanks! I think the appropriateness of the ClearPath has a lot to do with financial resources. If you have the cash or if the machine is going to earn its keep, they're pretty nice. If it's just a hobby, they're a bit of a stretch.
@@Clough42 My machine def doesn't earn it's keep. I like the idea of closing the loop on position, but I'm cutting primarily cast acrylic and Al so I'm not missing steps with reasonable feeds & speeds. I hope to see more content with the BTP2424; I always learn something.
Those of are some big motors. You'd have to be a mad-lad to use them on such a "tiny" frame. I love it. :P
Nice mill. I sense bigger things are afoot for Clough42 and his 'Tardis' garage!
Excellent!
Don't forget to do a vid of when you autotune the clearpath servos. Is you little grizzly mill too small and limited to take advantage of the powerful spindle? Are you going to convert the grizzly back to its original spindle?
The grizzly works fine with the spindle, for what it is. But the high-speed spindle can't really take advantage of the rigidity of the mill, because it can't swing big tools or run slow enough to really drill and hog steel.
I am very interested to see how you'll optimize the auto squaring script. I am thinking about upgrading my controller to acorn and I also have a dual Y axis configuration. I see that you've had to resort to a software auto-squaring script and am curious how the wiring of the endstops in centroid will allow for a "hardware" approach to the squaring procedure.
I think the software squaring is fine. It just needs the delays removed. By default every message it displays causes a 3-second delay.
This is so cool! I have the same machine but in a 3x3 with the stock steppers. (They made the 3x3 custom, not offered on their website). I’d love to have those clearpath servos, my only concern is crash my machine on occasion and it just stalls the steppers when that happens. Especially since chips can get behind those way covers, and when they accumulate a little bit then the machine will pack them into the end and eventually not be able to reach the end stop switch anymore (and instead just smoosh a big climb of chips). It happens surprisingly quick when I’m machining aluminum, I swear I’m not a slob haha. But anyway, when that happens the steppers just stall and there’s no harm done. What happens if you do that with a servo? Is there a way to make the servos torque-out before something breaks? In my opinion, it’s inevitable that you’ll crash that machine someday. Curious what happens then.
You can set a torque limit on the motors. Of course, then you run the risk of torqueing out and having it stop when cutting. I think the Clearpath motors are pretty easy to monitor, and they log max torque events so it should be possible to set this well. I have been a little concerned looking at the dust covers. I expected them to seal better than they do. I'm thinking it might make sense to remove the lower shields on the Y axes to let chips fall out, but I think it has a lot to do with what solution I end up with for chip clearing and an enclosure.
@@Clough42 ah the max torque feature makes sense. FWIW, I’ve never stalled my motors during a cut and I’ve pushed it really hard. I lose rigidity before I stall the motors, so I’d think there’s definitely a torque value there that’ll stop the servos before it breaks the machine, but not mess with your cutting operations.
Removing the bottom red steel covers is brilliant! I can’t believe I didn’t think of that haha. I’m definitely going to try that on the Y axis. It hasn’t been much of a problem with the X, so I’ll probably leave that one on.
James should the machine home be set at the right rear and the work home be set at the front left for "normal " CNC setup another great video. This machine looks a lot more powerful than my Workbee which is powerful enough to cut aluminum without a problem
I think you can set the machine home anywhere you want. I kind of think the left rear is convenient, so the gantry will be parked out of the way of loading the work, but the default on this machine is to home in the left front. It can be set up any way you like, though. The one downside of homing in the back left is that the Y machine coordinate is always negative. The work coordinate varies from job to job and is usually zeroed on the workpiece.
Acorn...nice. Geaux BBG!
Just re-watching as I am in the process of swapping out my smaller Parker Z stage for the AVID Z and noticed you have an adapter for the NEMA 34 CP. I'm using my old NEMA 23 CP until the 34 shows up, but it looks as though the AVID mount accepts either; is the adapter a requirement?? (also curious about which 34 CP you chose as a sanity check).
oh duh. You said you mounted a brake, didn't you. Sorry, never mind :)
Weakest link in the machine is the 6mm plate the linear bearings are attached to. Unless this has been revised. I'd suggest some blue threadlocker on the studs going into the plate. 😁John a SMW is great to work with. Fixture plates are awesome.
You mean the aluminum extrusions that run the length of the axis, or the 9mm motor mount plates that screw into the ends of those extrusions with 6mm screws? In my experience so far, those end plates are a real weak point. These servos will hit the bumpers, compress them completely, and bend the screws holding those plates on. In the event of a crash, I expect they'll separate from the machine completely.
No have you watched the build video time stamp 6:51 you can see what appears to be a 6mm plate that the linear carriages are mounted to
@@rc-cnc3431 ahh...the plate behind the dust cover. You may be right about that from a flexibility standpoint. I didn't look closely when I had it apart.
great video, thanks for sharing.
UA-cam is your part time job? do you have a full time job and if so, what is it?
now I know what it is for 😊, good luck !
Watching this again, I just noticed that he's using the pro version of CNC12, because axis-pairing is disabled in the free version. For those people, you can use the C86 add-on board, which provides the option of hardware-connected axis pairing. In that case however, the same command is always sent to both servos, so squaring the axis via software is not possible.
Way overkill = glorious. Agreed. Well played sir.
Thanks for sharing
Beautiful machine. What are your way covers made of? Where did you buy them?
Interesting machine! Great content as always
You should check into invert-a-bolt for the fixture plate. they work great
Oh, that's a cool concept. I didn't know that existed.
Is your garage temperature controlled? If not do you have concerns about thermal stability over different seasons?
My shop is now temperature controlled, but I used it for seventeen years prior to that where the temperature varied between freezing and over 100F (38C). It was still attached to the house, though, so it wasn't as bad as it would have been in a detached shop. The biggest problem I noticed was that way oil on the machines got very sticky and viscous when it was cold.
Glorious Overkill.
Nice.
Great video and great build, as usual. Can you comment on why you chose to go with the Acorn this time rather than Mach3/4 like before? Curious...
Hi James, this build is very similar to mine - clearpaths with a custom ATC setup and the SMW fixture plate. I went down the Masso route so curious to see how this setup works. I also went with a Fogbuster which has been great. I've been quite happy with my machine but I made some modifications to the Z axis, notably shortening the spindle mounting plate on a bandsaw so I could have the bearings as close to the X axis as possible for maximum rigidity.
Just a note on some things - you may find your X axis is making contact with the riser plates at the bottom, I filed this away so I could get a perfectly flat mounting surface. You may also wish to recalibrate the alignment of the rails, though mine wasn't far out. I did tweak mine a bit.
I went with a Jianken spindle which has been wonderful. I also have some details on my tool rack on my Instagram if you're interested. I think UA-cam will filter out my comment if I link to it but if you search for 'OutpostWorkshopUK' you should find me there and details of my build. Looking forward to seeing how you get on!
Thanks for the pointers. I currently have the spindle mounted (spoilers) so the physical end of the spindle is even with the end of the Z axis T-slot extrusion to try to optimize clearance. I need to see how the geometry all works out, but if I understand correctly, you shortened the extrusion so the spindle is mounted closer to the linear rail bearings inside the slide, while still maintaining clearance? I will consider this, once I figure out how much reach I have with the tools. I have the fixture surface mounted in the second-to-lowest position, and I need to make sure I can still reach everything with the tools.
@@Clough42 That's exactly right! As you say, I shortened the extrusion to allow clearance as I found it was too long with the spindle in my preferred position - I brought the spindle up as much as possible while having enough room to reach my bed if needed. I found this increased the rigidity quite a bit. I also switched over to one of the Chinese spindle mounts as I wasn't a fan of the stock Avid one with the spindle I chose, which admittedly is pretty ridiculous with hindsight - a 20KG Jianken spindle. I reduced my acceleration quite a bit as I didn't want to harm the mechanics while throwing it around. I don't think you'll have any issues with the CNC depot spindle as the mounting seems much more rigid from what I remember!
Anyway, it does take quite a mean chip out of aluminium now, I've been quite impressed! Also, the detail for the bits I'm making has been excellent. If I did it again I'd probably go for a lighter spindle though!
@@michaelkelly3158 the FM30F is just under 10kg. A little lighter than I remembered.
@@Clough42 That sounds ideal! If you need any help with it give me a shout :)
Nice machine !!, I was expecting you will build CNC from scratch.
Very Nice! Looking forward to seeing how you "Tune" the Y axis with dual motors. I am working on that with my 4' x 8' Avid machine.
Hey! I'm planning to record that this afternoon!
You are awesome 👌
Awesome. Looking great so far. Was seriously looking at buying one of the Avid PRO CNC kits last year... but maybe when I get a bigger shop/more space.. lol
Nice machine, I built the same machine as well using nema 34 steppers , mach3 and a 4" kurt vise. not as rigid as I would like, the steppers work fine for me , when cutting aluminum you must go slow and get an OK finish
I'm very curious to see how it works. I have found that the 12Krpm spindle with aluminum-specific variable-flute cutting tools to be pretty smooth on other machines. I'm expecting resonance to be the biggest factor.
@@Clough42 I do use amana cutters but I do not use coolant as I have a MDF spoil board and takes a bit of time to remove .
all I can say is WOW
Very interesting, as always.