One thing that I believe is inaccurate from those saying Joey would lose is about the god cards, the Pharaoh most likely wouldn't use the god cards in the match. The Pharaoh didn't even put Slifer in his deck until the Battle City finals and is unlikely to have them in his deck during a duel with a friend because unlike Kaiba, the Pharaoh knows they aren't toys. This is not to say Joey wins if the Pharaoh doesn't use the god cards, but that victory for Joey isn't as far fetched as some would lead you to believe.
I mean I fully believe Joey wins as the Yugi is skilled but doesn't mind losing at all and the puzzle won't use its magic to help due to there being actually negative stakes for Yugi. He wants Joey to show him his best and pull out a win so he can get Red eyes back
@lightdarksoul2097 I think the odds are slightly in Yugi's favor. Overall, I think it would be a very close Duel with Yugi winning at the last second, just like in Duelist Kingdom and Yugi returns Red-Eyes because Joey earned it.
People really underestimate joey hes definitely able to beat the gods. Yugi and kaiba were out here saying they need 2 god cards and to sidedeck in a counter pick to beat marik but joey straight up beat him dead to rights and only lost due to exhaustion
@@jebbryant6522 lame sotp makr was just toying with joey he coudl cruahs at anyt time and joey ecan tbea thte gods joe yneed luck to win not skill yugi kaiba use skill
Peoepl really misunderstand that manage panel. The condition for Joey to gain back Red Eyes wasn't for Joey to beat Yami Yugi or win Battle City. The condition was for Joey to prove he is a capable duelist able to stand on his own.
That's the debate though. A) is defeating Yugi a condition for Joey to prove to himself he's a capable duelist B) are the 2 goals of becoming a true duelist and getting back Red-Eyes separate goals, where only the latter is tied to the result of the duel
Considering other capable duelists have a significant loss record against Yami Yugi, it would be stupid to say beating him is the only way Joey can prove himself as a true duelist. We wouldn't question Mai or Kaiba at this point in the same way, but neither of them would beat Yugi. Joey proved himself against Marik, to the point Even Seto Kaiba acknowledged him. I don't think him beating Yugi is necessary.
@@tailsspin621 then why didnt yugi give joey his card back after that duel? why even duel then? its not NECESSARY- but its simply the most narrative reasonable take.
@@ianslee4765 probably because Yugi and Joey didn't actually duel for the red eyes after battle city, not in the original source material (manga) anyway. Even though it's off screen, this duel is entirely an invention of the anime.
One thing I want to point out is that the manga version of this sequence went very differently. The manga's battle city arc ends with Yugi and Joey fantasizing about dueling as true equals in the future, but we never get to see a duel happen because the story ends before they get home. The point is that Yugi and Joey's journey for self improvement will never end. Also Joey never specifically said that he needed to win red-eyes as an ante. Joey just felt that he no longer deserved red-eyes after losing it and wanted to hone his skills to make up for the careless loss. He also wanted to help protect Yugi by loaning him the card. Even if Joey wasn't available in person, he could support his friend.
The argument for the pahroah winning also comes into play in gx where chummerly loses but he impressed crowler and the point of it was to see if he can earn crowler's respect, despite crowler saying he had to win, so in gx eventhough chummerly lost, he earned the right to go and achieve his dream.
its not just that Joey lost Red-eyes to Seeker, its also the way he lost. he was arrogant, didn't respect his opponent or their strategies, and tried to style on him even though Red-eyes was on the line. thats the reason i think that he couldnt consider himself a true duelist, and it messed him up. (also they beat the crap outta hm) Watching yugi defeat the same opponent, by figuring out his exodia strategy, made him realize that Yugi was so much better a duelist, and it gave him something to strive for again. i think that for joey, Battle city was one big fight, not several individual duels. Red-eyes is still on the line for him, not because he lost a duel, but because the battle isnt over yet. another thing is that victory isnt needed to be a true duelist. in fact, i think the most critical aspects joey gained at the end were those of loses. he accepted his loss to Odion, and acknowledged his opponents strength. and against Marik, he never gave up and fought till the actual end. Joey and Yugis final battle would only happen AFTER Joey could call himself a true duelist anyway. So the way i see it, Yugi would have given Red-eyes back before the duel even began. i dont know how Yugi could go all out on Joey if all his heart wasnt in the deck without Red-eyes.
Insightful point about how Joey viewed his duel vs Seeker vs how Yugi dueled him. Certainly a catalyst for his understanding of what a true duelist is.
The Zorc fight literally happened in a world of memories where the immigination could straight will things into being. It’s no surprise Red-Eyes was summoned.
No. In the final mini-arc where someone has to duel and win against Atem to send him to the afterlife, Anzu explicitly states “no Duelist here has been able to defeat him.” Including Kaiba and Jonouchi.
@@chaosinorder9685 dude kaiba wood ben on joet as fi he beat yugi as kaiba kaor recode all duels that happen jeoy cant win and the maker wont have tea sya that of joey win
Personally, I think that what could've happened was that they did have a duel. In the middle, Joey manages to steal control of Red-Eyes (Through grave robber or a change of hearts effect. Maybe even Yugi using Red-Eyes as some sort of "test" for him to overcome, and once he does, he uses Grave Robber to get it back) but still loses in the end. Still, the fact that he managed to take it back mid-duel is enough for both of them. Proving that he can play without the crutch of Red-Eyes, but still has room to improve
@@ianslee4765 In the tournament, Joey never really proved himself as a duelist. Against Odion, Joey should have been eliminated, but Marik saved him. Against Marik, Joey only lasted as long as he did, because Marik was toying with him. People complain about the Shadow Game, but if not for that, Marik would have taken the game more seriously and beat Joey earlier, because he wouldn't have had fun torturing him. Finally, against Kaiba, he lost again (this was poor writing in my opinion; the story would have been better for both Joey and Kaiba if Joey had won, but oh well). So, Joey never really had a chance unfortunately. Joey's story arc really got screwed over
@@MichaelisBLee the anime constantly making joey a fall character even though he never was in the manga means you cant just use the kaiba v joey duel. its not canon. wanna know how youre flatly WRONG from the source material stand point? marik threw up blood and almost passed out, meaning he almost died too. thats how marik DUELS, pretending like he's ever learned to play another way is bs. its even stated odion is the one who actually won the cards. KAIBA himself honors joey as a capable duelist after he faints. the duel against odion is kinda stupid because it is one of the primary examples of the story taking over there- As soon as odion had magic jammer in his opening hand, he won. like what? thats not out dueling someone. thats just a matchup issue. cause odion not having magic jammer means trunade goes off and joey otks him. so the duel was absolutely close in skill. joey beats the main duelists yugi did in the previous arc- showing he's at minimum previous arc yugi(you know, the king of games?) level. "So, Joey never really had a chance unfortunately. Joey's story arc really got screwed over" because you refuse the obvious- youre wrong. adding him beating(or somehow tying) yugi absolutely caps his arc PERFECTLY. because the narrative clearly leads here, you need more evidence it didnt happen. there just really isnt ANY aside from "i feel like yugi wouldnt lose"
@@ianslee4765 Thank you for your time, but all you've done is contest your interpretation of the story against mine. So, even if you so confidently declare me wrong; nothing you've stated here makes you right either, because we're contesting our opinions and interpretation of the story. We may as well be arguing what's a better colour: blue or red, because it's nothing, but our opinions clashing. For you, Joey dueling Marik to the point of making him nervous was enough for you to accept his arc as convincing enough stand on the level of Atem and Kaiba. For me, it was not enough. Because ultimately, Joey still could not defeat a duelist who was not taking him seriously, nor could he handle Odion. Even excluding his anime duel with Kaiba, Joey simply did not do enough for me in this arc to convince me he was on the level of Kaiba and Atem. Yes, Joey proved himself as a duelist, but not at the level of Kaiba and Atem. We watched the same events unfold, but same to different conclusions. Neither of us needs to be right or wrong. But I'll hold to my interpretation of the story: Joey was not at the level of Atem and he lost, but still earned his Red-Eyes Black Dragon back.
Here's my personal head canon: First as you all but confirmed yourself the point was not for Joey to win it was to prove himself a true duelist. There's no doubt in my mind that Joey absolutely would have done that regardless of whether he won or not and at this point in the series I don't think that Joey is good enough yet to beat Atem, he'd give one hell of a fight but I don't believe he'd win. Joey would take the loss and Atem would congratulate him on a duel well fought, acknowledge him as a true duelist, and as promised give him his Red Eyes back. Being acknowledged as a true duelist would mean far more to Joey than just winning and as long as that happens Joey would feel he's earned it and accept Red Eyes back.
I really think the duel ended in a draw. Reasons? 1) It would allow for Yugi's character to maintain his record and retain his "King of Games" title since it wasn't a loss. If you tied with the King you tied with the King, you still weren't able to defeat him. 2) I think a draw would still be an outcome good enough where Joey would be willing to accept Red-Eyes back.
I'm really sad that Takahashi never showed this duel in the manga. It was probably THE most anticipated duel of Battle City outside of Yugi vs. Kaiba and Yugi vs. Marik
I can understand his decision, but yeah it was built up from the very beginning of the arc all the way to the end. And especially since otherwise, Atem and Jonouchi don't duel in the manga, woulda been nice to see.
Yugi vs marik didn't hit the same because Joey basically beat him (all he had to do was say attack) so we know what yugi was about to do. Joey was basically the best or second best duelist in that whole tournament
"Joey runs low level monsters to avoid bricking" Well, this is actually not true. Through his Battle City decklist in the anime he has a total of 13 of his 40 cards that are either level 5 or higher or are a Spell/Trap cards that are only able to be used with one (maybe 2) targets in his deck (such as Graceful Dice which his only confirmed target is Swordsman of Landstar, Poly when he only has one Fusion he can make - since Thousand Dragon isn't a Fusion in the anime, or [anime] Foolish Burial which his only use for is a combo with Graverobber). He's one of the few characters who actively bricks on-screen as well - both in the battle royale prior to the semifinals and in his duel with Odion where while he does make plays, he still hard draws into a ton of his bothersome high level monsters that don't really help him and when he's on the back foot and needs to topdeck he makes four dead draws in a row (we see three of those draws - Poly, Shield & Sword, Salamandra). Yugi probably has more cards that "could" brick but considering he has more general purpose backrow, and he only reaches 13 level 5+ monsters if you give him all 3 Egyptian Gods. In the manga Joey has fewer brick possibilities but just fewer cards shown in general, he's down to 7. Plus we see Yugi actively make a lot of changes to his deck through the tournament, most of the cards that cause Joey to have brick potential are ones he runs consistently. Though most likely his deck would look something like what we see from his duel with Judai in GX, which certainly is a brickfest with double digits of confirmed cards that could brick him (Dark Magician, DMG, Buster Blader, BLS and its Ritual, Valkyrion, Archfiend of Gilfer, Thousand Knives, Swift Gaia and the three Egyptian Gods).
Is there a reason you believe Yugi changes his deck during Battle City? Other than adding his antes and Fiend's Sanctuary, I don't recall coming across a point that explicitly stated this, but I may have missed that. You're right that Joey does brick on screen, but at least in the case against Odion, it was written that way for a dramatic finish. This isn't to say that Joey can't brick, but rather, Yugi, if we ran multiple simulations, would brick more often than Joey. The point is moot though since bricking in the series only happens for dramatic reasons, and so "deck strength" wise, I give a firm nod to Yugi.
@@customcardguy We see periodical scenes of Yugi modifying his deck in between some duels, usually as a background element while he and the Pharaoh are talking. Though it's mostly in the finals. Moreso the reason is because it's generally implied that characters in the anime don't run over 40 cards at any given time (as I recall the only Yugioh anime character who ever is directly shown/stated to run more than 40 is Goha Yuuga) and Yugi's decklist in Battle City has significantly more than that. In total Yugi is shown to have around 80 distinct cards throughout Battle City and some are only cards he has in his deck after a period where he could have or was shown to be looking over his deck. For instance, he uses "Exile of the Wicked" only one time, in a duel against Bakura. It's a card that doesn't really work for Yugi's general strategy but makes sense for him to think could be useful against Bakura's Occult deck. While not all of his cards are that situational, there's reason to believe that he makes minor tweaks during the main segment of Battle City and larger tweaks in between rounds of the finals. Joey it's a bit tougher to make that argument, namely in that his Battle City decklist is shown to have about 40 cards in total, and he doesn't dramatically change his lineup of cards in the finals. He might make tweaks but not to the same extent as Yugi. In any case, the implication through the anime that characters don't run more than 40 cards in a specific duel is one that generally holds true and in most cases there aren't long stretches where a character would be unable to change their decks and they also use over 40 cards over those episodes.
@Zetact_ That's only true for the anime. In the manga, Yugi only uses 39 cards, discluding Valkyrion as it is a Fusion monster in the manga. Also, in Duelist Kingdom he only uses 37 if you include the fact that Ritual monsters don't have physical cards like Fusion monsters. Also also, Jack's Knight and Berfomet are 4 star monsters which helps with the bricking issue, but in the manga he also has Feral Imp which is a 5 star monster in the manga.
Being a 'true duelists' means believing in yourself, and having confidence in yourself. This is why Joey finally felt worthy of dueling Yugi He would of lost...OBV, but since both Yugi and Joey realized how far Joey came, Yugi would of let Joey have it back, and Joey - realizing this truth - would humbly accept it back, knowing he earned it.
My head canon is simply that joey plays red-eyes burn and uses graverobber to grab monster reborn to revive red-eyes black dragon attacking it into dark magician and activating red-eyes burn to burn them both but technically yugi's lifepoints drop to 0 first then joey's which is good enough for both duelists to decide it was a good ending to their duel. It also is reminiscent of yugi using dark sage against joey using time wizard and joey HAS done a very similar play already when he used graverobber to get summoned skull in duelist kingdom. As for answers to the god cards joey could always make the god cards battle themselves if we assume yugi get 2 gods on board joey has magical arm shield to make the gods clash and possibly both crash
My headcanon was always that at this point, Yugi and the Pharaoh were connected enough that the duel between the two of them could play out WITHOUT the intervention of the Pharaoh, thus this WAS indeed a Yugi vs Joey fight, not a Yami vs Joey duel.
Im my mind, it always went along the lines of, yugi won, but tried to give red eyes to joey anyway. Joey refused at first, but yugi gives a speech about how even though he didn't win, joey fought with the spirit of a true duelist, and red eyes wants to be with him. Joey accepts the card, promising that with it, he'll become a duelist able to finally defeat yugi. Theres also another point not brought up here, and thats Kaiba. We know that kaiba has the ability to spy on any duel fought with a kaiba corp duel disk. We also know that kaiba is obsessed with yugi, to the point of making a fully interactive hologram pharaoh to duel against in dsod. If yugi lost a duel, and to Joey of all people, kaiba would know, and he'd be furious. As far as im aware, kaiba kinda drops off after battle city in the manga, but considering he doesn't bring up this duel in either dsod, which is canon to the manga, or in waking the dragons or the millennium world in the anime, it seems safe to assume that yugi won. While kaiba would still hate joey, he would be dar more weary of a duelist who could beat yugi, and he just isn't.
Joey is a really admirable character... No milenium item No plot armor Risk taker and cleve Won against duelists who cheated Won against pro duelists as a novice Would have defeated marik if not predestined to lose.
I always felt like Joey CAN beat the pharoh, the issue is luck, afterall joey nearly beat kaiba if not drawed with him. Outside the God cards I feel like yugi's standard deck is overall superior compared to joey's deck. Also I feel like the pharaoh's deck during battle city was likely ALOT weaker than his final deck. Not that he was holding back but more his deck was still in its experimental phase in areas since he had prepared his deck to atleast attempt to counter certain duelist. They also both knew most of Atem's battle city staples so it would be a very close match. It's VERY likely he didnt have the god cards in his deck since well NORMALLY he would avoid using unless it was vital, though I could make an argument over him having atleast ra because joey would likely want to be able to defeat said god card. I also feel like how yusei got stardust dragon back is how, how he basically took it back mid battle, is most likely how joey would have "won" the card back. Though I LOVE your theory
@@customcardguy it’s why I said won in quotes since he got his main objective in getting the red eyes back. Since that’s the main objective willing the duel while he tried his hardest to also do was never the full point of the test.
A well informed and concise video, well done! Personally, I always believed the Pharoah won but Joey made him work for it. I imagine Joey wouldve taken the early game due to Yugi subconciously be holding back, only for Joey to insist Yugi use *everything* to win. Relenting, Yugi starts using all his tricks, maybe even summons Slifer. Joey, through luck and grit is able to take out Slifer, greatly impressing Yugi. Unfortunately for Joey, he leaves himself wide open doing so and Dark Magician finishes off Joey.
First video I’ve seen of your channel but wow what a great video with a very clear structure! Incredible research 👏 Im on neither side so this is my answer: At time of this duel I think both of them were already true duellists but Joey still had more room to grow. So with that in mind I dont think Joey defeated Atem but Atem gave him Red-Eyes back which Joey didn’t refuse. Now this didn’t mean he would use it immediately and I assume Joey gave himself enough time to grow until he had the confidence to use the card again. But it could’ve also been a lot simpler and Joey accepted the card regardless of the outcome of the duel and would use it straight away because his journey as a duellist (this duel included) gave him enough assurance to move forward with Red-Eyes as his ace. Much love from Switzerland 🇨🇭✌️
It'd be ok for Atem to lose this duel since nothing was on the line for once. Jounochi won, idc what anyone says. Him losing but getting Red-Eyes anyway would be so lame regardless of context. Also he technically beat Marik without any god cards. Atems battle city deck is awful and he only wins because of plot armor, and as we all know, plot armor only works if the protagonist losing would halt the story. So Atem's plot armor would have no power here, and would likely favor Jounochi since he actually has something to lose and gain.
@@ssjgotenks2009 youre really concerned over a title in an unofficial match off the books? Jounochi is the godfather of games, and he for sure beat atem. Hell, *I* could beat Atem. I'm pretty sure *you* could beat Atem.
Given that Joey has his Red-Eyes Black Dragon card again in later seasons, I'd say he did. I'd also say that Yugi/Atem didn't use the Egyptian God Cards in their duel, to give Joey more of a chance.
The only thing I dislike about this video is we are assuming Atem *wants to use the God Cards*. He used them in Battle City as a means to an end, I am not convinced he would use them when the world isn't at stake, and I think an Atem vs Joey duel would reasonably forgo the God cards and Atem would focus more on his Dark Magician and support cards, with top ends like Buster Blader/Dark Paladin, Valkyrion, et al.
Also don't forget he purposely excluded them from his deck during the arc with Kaiba's tournament after the Dartz saga. I think when the stakes are lower he isn't going to use the gods And to counter the possible "Yugi used Slifer against Jaden" argument: Jaden was trying to take the title of King of Games. Joey was trying to prove himself as a true duelist. For the latter, defeating Yugi with Yugi using the God cards is not at all necessary to succeed in realizing that goal
@@LunarWingCloud I can see why people might think Atem wouldn't want to use the god cards, but I think Atem would ultimately want to give Joey his all because that's what Joey would expect in a battle of true duelists. Basically, it's not just Atem's viewpoint we have to consider here, it's Joey's too Your last two points seem a bit conflicting. If Yugi were to use Slifer vs Jaden because it's for the title of King of Games, so was his duel with Leon. I think the god cards were excluded from the KC arc because any inclusion of them draws attention away from everything else going on. In-universe-wise, it's highly probable that they just got thrown out by Stromberg's cost or that yeah Yugi just didn't use them.
I think it's kinda cool that the Pharoah has a deck that is completely full of bricks and conflicting strategies. I think it only works for him because he has the power of the Millennium puzzle which gives him a luck boost to draw complementary cards one after another. It would be absolutely horrible if anyone else's used it.
i still believe joey won because if you think about it by the finals of battle city joey was calling out yugi's\atem's moves when the others were confused by the moves indicating that joey studied yugi over the course of their careers leading up to their match at the end of battle city and by taking in that condition i think joey came up with a strategy to beat the pharaoh and win back red eyes
@@customcardguyIn my opinion joeys just naturally a better duelist than kaiba he has every card in rotation and and millions of dollars while joeys using a structure deck with some hand me downs and was trained by Yugi. I always saw the duel as the student surpassing the master.
@@Yazarastsu yeah, there should be a rule in which if you win with Swordman of landstar, no Umi legendary fisherman, insect queen, shield and sword, etc. you become king of games automatically
Hey, so remember back in the power creep video, when I had suggested ways to use rules changes and “boons” to even the playing field between stronger and weaker decks? I had in idea on how to buff normal summons/sets in a way that would give Normal, Gemini and Flip monsters a new lease on life: “The _Restricted_ Summon”, which would be a second Normal Summon/Set for each player, and it would be “Restricted” (on top of following the pre-existing rules for normal summons/sets) in that A: You can only Normal Summon/Set Normal, Gemini and Flip monsters with it, and B: neither player could use those monsters as tributes or material the turn they are Summoned/Set by a “restricted” Summon/Set. Also, you would have to announce when you are doing a “Restricted” summon/set instead of a proper Normal Summon/Set. THAT would allow players to get a second body out on the board easier, in such a way that it wouldn’t be easy to immediate snowball into extra deck or tribute plays left and right, BUT said monster would at the same time be momentarily protected by popular outs like Super Poly or Kaiju’s or the like that uses tributes and materials as a board clear. So, if I wanted to run a Kaiba sorta deck, I could normal summon Kaiser Sea Horse, then restricted summon a Blue-Eyes White Dragon using Kaiser as a tribute (since it’s a 2 for 1 tribute for LIGHT monsters), and now that Blue-Eyes is out on the field and protected under the Anti-Tribute/Material clause (while also makeing sure I can’t use it for summoning most other objectively better monsters). Meaning that, with the right setup, Vanilla beatsticks could see a new lease on life they haven’t had in DECADES. Or I could just use both normal summons to make a Gemini become an effect monster IMMEDIATELY (revoking their classic hang up of needing a second normal summon), or just play mind games with my opponent with that extra Flip set.
it's been said that Kazuki Takahashi himself said Joey won this duel, since he got back his Red Eyes in both continuities, we saw him use it in the orichalcos arc of the anime and in dark side of dimensions he showed it off to aigami at one point
@@Aescalona your lier you say thsi now that he not ehre to call you out on it joey could not beat atem ever if jeoty iwn that wood make him the king of games kaiba wood goen after joey ass
Think about it If not for shenanigans, joey wouldve won both battle city and duelist kingdom. Yugi pulled dark sage as a specific counter to time wizard, which joey had no way of knowing. No dark sage, yugi is through and joey wins And then joey did beat marik on a technical level in battle city. He defeated the big bad of the season. His gearfried had enough damage to end the game, he just succumbed to marik's mental torture before declaring his attack. To say he has 0 chance against the pharaoh is kinda nuts. At this point in the series, he even holds his own against kaiba, and is easily a top 5 duelist in the franchise, and by far the strongest duelist to never touch a god card
In the Orichalcos Arc Joey uses Red Eyes a lot. If we consider this unseen battle was a loss for Joey but Pharaoh gave it back since he would leave the mortal realm soon... Pharaoh did not include any cards he got from Battle City (except the gods) in his "final deck" vs regular Yugi in the finale
I think the biggest thing going for Joey on point #3 is Yugi has absolutely nothing to gain by winning and nothing to lose by losing, whereas Joey is dueling (maybe) for pride and (likely) for his Red Eyes. There's no motivation or point to invoking the heart of the cards or any other mystical shenanigans to win against Joey, whereas Joey has to trust in his deck completely to get the upper hand, which I expect him to do. Win/loss records don't really seem to be considered much in-universe, so I think this is a duel of who WANTS it more and that's certainly Joey. Even if Yugi has a 99.9% chance of winning, you better believe Joey's popping the Time Wizard to eke out his 0.01% chance to win Unless Pharaoh goes ballistic like he did during that one duel in Waking the Dragons where he used the seal of orichalcos because he was going to lose a didn't that didn't matter at all, where nothing was at stake until Yugi MADE it a life-or-death struggle to try and avoid losing lol. Then yeah, suddenly Yugi's not dueling for fun anymore and Joey's probably losing no matter what.
I would say Yugi/Atem's motivation is to uphold his promise to Joey to duel as true duelists. In that regard, the "stakes" are the pride of a true duelist and respecting your friend by giving him your all. But I can understand additional points as to why Joey would have an even bigger motivation.
I want to add the reason Atem did not take one of Arcana's Dark Magicians is because Arcana cut his Dark Magicians narrower so his opponent will likely put one on top when cutting the deck.
no lame yugi just give him back and there is no filler all is canon get with the time wnat prog way do think epgaes is alvie in gc with the card form seaosn4 of yugioh huh cnaon tay wya and the yugioh make said byond time 5ds mvoie is cnaon who alvie int peagess prof anime si fulyl cnaon so is manga mtuvlusle dude duel link even says this get with times sotp saying filelr hwen you ben profing wrogn
for everyone saying atem won you are all wrong joey would never accept it back if he lost as we have seen on screen so he had to win and we know he got red eyes back
I like to believe that Joey won but he let Yugi keep the king of games title because it wasn't an official tournament match. But that's just me being a huge Joey fan and would love if he had a win on Yugi 😂
I'm of the opinion that he won. Battle City was about Joey's growth as a duelist and his ability to catch up to Yugi, just as much as it was about Yugi trying to get closer to his past. Both characters accomplish their goals by the end. Makes more sense narratively that he would beat him in the end, especially after it was shown he would've beaten Marik. Do I think Joey beat all three God Cards? No. Hell, Yami didnt even use Ra against Yugi in the Ceremonial Duel. But saying he wouldn't win because he runs luck based cards isn't a good argument to me when Yugi also runs luck cards like Magical Hats. And Yu-gi-oh is a luck based game.
I don't think I mentioned Joey runs luck-based cards. In fact the opposite. I said his reliance on those cards dwindles as Battle City goes on. But Yugi's deck is still stronger. To your point, maybe the Pharaoh doesn't use Ra, as he didn't against Yugi in the ceremonial duel. But I don't think he would take out all 3 because both of them would see that as a sign of disrespect to Joey.
The base of my argument is going to be the duels they had against Marik. Joey lost only on a technicality of the shadow game, had he been able to declare an attack, Joey would have won. Mariks duel with Yugi, Marik has Yugi beat at the end but because of a change of heart/spirit (not the card), forfeits. Based off those duels and Yugi not using the God cards. Joey won the duel.
The Pharaoh won the duel against Joey. The outcome was very similar as Joey x Rex Raptor in Duelist Kingdom, with the effect of Time Magician. The difference is that the effect of Time Magician was in benefit of Yugi instead of Joey.
The Pharoh's luck boost that gives him the ability to draw the correct card when needed only works when the stakes of victory vs defeat is high. Losing Red Eyes was not vital to the Pharoah. Therefore Joey won against Yugi (not the Pharoah).
Dont forget that the pharaoh's ability (lets call it the heart of the cards) gets stronger, the more dire the situation becomes. When you come off of a tournament where everybody's lives were on the line, against a deranged serial killer, and you go for a fun backyard duel with your best pal, the stakes arent quite as dire. It would make sense for yugi not to always draw the perfect card when absolutely nothing is at stake, other than joey winning back his red eyes. Damn, the heart of the cards might even think that joey getting his REBD back IS the optimal play in that situation. Add that to Joey's growth both as a duelist and a character, and i dont think Yugi wins as easily as people think he would. And then on top of that, Yugi wouldn't use god cards that can hurt people physically, as much if not more than a shadow game, against his best friend, who was a great help in defeating Marik and recovering said cards
I think the Pharoah is extremely persuasive especially in regards to Joey. Joey looks up to him and to have the Pharoah say with all his heart that Joey deserves the Red eye's would definitely go a long way to pushing a conflicted Joey into taking it. I'd say that is likely how it went down. Joey did really well but lost and he didn't wanna take the card. The Pharoah comforts him and tells Joey that he absolutely won it in his eyes.
Well he does have Red Eyes in dark side of dimensions so he either won or did baller enough to get it back. Joey is one of the only people to actual know how to play the game.
I'm pretty sure yugi won. For two reasons; 1. He was worried about his title in the final round of the world cup championship. 2. He said it was too risky him dueling against the pharaoh. Aside from the fact that he's still a bit of an amature duelist since he always relies too heavily on luck. Hell he's done that loads of time. And I'm sure yugi would give it back out of his somewhat exceptionally dueling most importantly he's his friend. But in the manga i know since as someone said kazuki confirmed it. But not anime wise of course
I think Joey won. In yugioh universe heart of the cards is guided heavily by will power, fate, etc. Since this was just a friendly duel with no souls or end of the world at stake, I think Yugi's power level is nerfed a little bit from that perspective. Not that yugi wouldn't try to win, just that Joey probably wanted to win more. Combine that with the red eyes being fated to be his and I see Joey getting lucky with all of his coin flip/dice roll shenanigans and coming up with the win.
I can see Joey's will to win being higher in this moment, but also, the Pharaoh is the most competitive of gamers, so the "stake" if you will is his unblemished record.
no if joey win he wood ben know as some who could face atem at the end btu di dnot he wood stpe up nto run form kaiba ass in dark side movie it prof he lost
It still bugs me how people say “Joey would’ve lost if Marik was dueling seriously” like, no. That’s just how Marik duels. That’s how he fought everyone but Odion. Marik lost almost every duel he was in. He dueled his best against Yugi, someone he’s played and lost to multiple times already so he had info in his deck’s strategy. Meanwhile Marik kept grabbing new ones
I always thought that Joey didn’t necessarily have to win to get red eyes back, just that he improved and had true honor as a duelist during their duel
I'm of the opinion that Joey won. It makes sense out of a narrative perspective since we've never really seen the protagonist lose an 'easy' duel until zexal where that's kinda part of the narrative(?) There isn't conclusive evidence of course but in a meta. Also can we remember that Yami wouldn't use the god cards on Joey since he'd possibly end up comatose? Jaden was an exception due to Yugi sensing yubel. Joey doesn't have that advantage so the god cards should be out. Also Atem may not take antes and that is set in stone, it's not his style right? However he WOULD adhere to it if he lost. Joey wouldn't take it since he'd just end up saying "nah, I wanna git it back fair and square' (I can't write a Brooklyn accent sorry) the point being that it doesn't matter what Atem thinks in terms of whether or not Joey is a true duelist it matters what Joey thinks of himself. Also let's address the millennium puzzle because I've heard it been said that the puzzle grants good luck under certain conditions and while I can see that being plausible (I've never been given concrete evidence) we can all agree that a duel between these two wouldnt call for that power to be called upon, unconsciously or otherwise. Also going back to the ante rule for a moment let's keep in mind that Joey's deck has gotten significantly better while Atem only made minor upgrades from when he had a date with tea that one time. His chances aren't as unbalanced as people think. Finally in the waking the dragons arc Joey stands alongside Atem and Kaiba boy to be a welder of the claw of Hermos which signifies narratively that he DOES stand alongside those two in terms of strength. Atem isn't without fair losses either *cough seal of orichalcos usin ass cough* so he can make a mistake and isn't infallible all the time. Finally Joey not being the person to send the pharaoh back to the afterlife could simply be because he didn't have the heart to? Like yeah they all agreed he should be laid to rest but it's another thing to be the one to do it you know? (Also God cards put people in comas in the anime if they have no ties to ancient Egypt which makes me wonder if mokuba is safe since he's kaibas brother but I didn't see him in the past so probably not.) I'm not saying he conclusively did or didn't but given the facts he's got at least a 45% chance, I'd say fifty but then again I overthink these things.
The god card concern I think is really just Ra. I don't think Slifer or Obelisk at any point hurt anybody in any way when used in a non-shadow game. For example, Kaiba used it on Koji (the bully in Battle City) and all that happened was he was shook lol. Atem would certainly give up Red-Eyes if he lost, but the point here is that it's not necessary that he'll keep it if he wins. So it's not an ante-duel in the traditional sense.
@@customcardguy I can't recall off the top of my head but I think it was mentioned during the duel against strings where he got slifer maybe? Then again you aren't wrong that the comas were shadow game duels.... However the point you made was (if I remember correctly) that Joey had to have a duel against Joey as a true duelist but I don't think that would be enough since Yugi and I think Yami would easily agree that he is especially given their duel in duelist kingdom. I agree that Yugi and Yami would give it back if he won or lost, however I just don't see Joey accepting if he were to lose. I think the point is that he wants to feel that he stands by them as an equal.
Why is it assumed they can only duel once, maybe they just duel till Joey wins and Atem doesn’t have to take any cards from Joey when he wins so its not a regular ante. So it could take a few duels but Joey could eventually win and it still works for the ceremonial duel since if it took him like ten tries or so he would still be a bad pick since they only have one shot and his chances of winning would be low.
I KNOW for a FACT that Yugi was on his last legs and pulled a plot armor and would've won but Joey had one last card to play and it was a gamble. that's how he won. time wizard or some gamble burn card or something. I know for a FACT that THATS how joey won the duel
My arguement is that if Joey/Jonouchi couldnt beat Kaiba, he couldnt beat Atem. Im sure he gave it all against Atem to prove his skill and ferver as a true duelist. That's what the duel was about.
One could make the argument that joey was going to win without red-eyes but the phraoah had one last trick up his sleeve that made him win and the outcome would have remained the same even if he had red-eyes, so lets say the pharoah at the last minute uses magical cylinder so Joey concludes that even if I had red-eyes it wouldn't of mattered, this duel is yours yugi. The pharoah and red-eyes sensing that because Joey aceepted that even if he had red-eyes he'd still lose allows him to have it back.
We never got to see but somehow Joey earned his Red Eyes back. That duel was probably for Joey to just prove that he is worth using red eyes(not in a rude way). Some duels in these generations have mentioned the purpose of duels isn’t about winning or losing.
one more thing, little yugi is BETTER at duel monster then the Pharaoh, so the pharaoh playing is better for Joey, as he is the weeker duelist, as the pharaoh is just more confident than yugi, despite him being better
I think it's hard to determine that. Obviously by the end of the series Yugi has surpassed the Pharaoh, but at what point that happens is hard to discern. I can see why you would think he always was, but it's just tough to say definitively.
I think that while Joey lost the duel, he impressed Yugi/Atem enough with how far he's come as a duelist, Yugi/Atem would've given Joey back his Red-Eyes as sign of respect and friendship.
It's the piece that's difficult to fit because of how anime filler disrupts manga continuity. Joey and Kaiba don't see each other again in the manga after Battle City. Narratively though, I would simply say that Joey and Yugi knew that duel was a personal moment between the two of them, and so didn't bring it up to Kaiba.
@@customcardguy dude sotp it nto filler wake up get withg the times it fulyl cnaon wnat rpfo the yugi amek siad byond time 5ds mciei is cnaon who alvi ein it paues prfos the anime is cnaon so sotp mang anime not the osme timeline you in salt the morrmy iof yugioh make wit flieir leis it cnaon anime and manga are nto the soem duel the yugioh make tolf you duel link is cnaon game then anime is cnaon in thee game and so is manga ther is no filelr yugioh is mutlvus hwo do you not knwo this a tthis point
I do want to think Joey won the duel not only because he’s a stubborn guy who probably wouldn’t want Red Eyes back unless he proved himself, but also for the sheer salt Kaiba would have knowing that the guy he always called “a third rate duelist” was able to beat his rival legitimately before he did.
The result may depend on whether the God cards are used or not which I doubt since they want a fair duel & I believe both have a good chance so Joey likely could've won
there is also an author comment where the duel would conclude with "Red-Eyes vs Time Wizard" in some capacity, so it would literally be decided on a spin... which has failed before, but it'd be one hell of a gamble
I believe that the pharaoh won against Joey and gave it back to him similar to how red eyes is more than just a powerful dragon. In the 1999 movie when the kid Shougo pulls Red eyes from a pack the card owner states that Blue eyes is a dragon that represents power and brings its owner Victory while the red eyes is a dragon that brings its owner Potential but only for one with the courage to fight. Joey from the beginning after getting red eyes from Rex has had his potential as a duelist grow never once betraying it. and after he lost it and joey gave it for Yugi to hang onto until he duels for it back his potential as a duelist without it grew to the point he made it to the semifinals of Battle city faced down the Sun Dragon Ra in its phoenix mode and returning from a Yami No game/Game of darkness. Now having lost to the Pharaoh Yugi could say that after Joey gave him his Red eyes he saw his potential as a true duelist grow so now why not give him back the dragon of potential and see how far his dueling potential will grow more with it then without it.
Yea it’s possible that Joey could have won. I think it would have been competitive and close, but not as close as yugi vs kaiba. I always seen it as more a win in growth for Joey instead of an actual win in the duel. I think yugi won in the duel, but Joey won in that moment. Great video!
Honestly, would have pefer it was Yugi vs Joey, not Atem vs Joey. Show sign of yugi growth as a duelist and standing for his own battle since Bandit Keith.
@@customcardguy I mean, at least later with blue flame swordman he managed to do something with him, Red-eyes without claw of hermos does nothing for his deck. Why run him, when he has Jinzo. Same attack points for one less tribute and a busted for the time effect. Also, Jinzo has a very similar symbolic meaning since he won it from his first battle city duel.
One thing I wonder, would the pharaoh even participate in the duel? Or would it be yugi vs joey. Beating Yugi is way different from beating the pharaoh.
Yugi makes it clear to Joey that "the other me" is looking forward to their duel. Plus the way Yugi is drawn in the manga (and anime) makes it clear that it's Atem.
I believe Atem might have lost but without the gods. Making Joey win but not an overpowered Yugi. Also giving way to the possibility that Joey could have won the tournament being the real underdog if it wasn’t for shadow magic and god cards. Yeah I know Tea said Atem was undefeated but I think she meant undefeated with at full power.
Most of Joey duels he won against cheaters… he deserved that win. Now Atem could have given him the card because he proved that he is a true duelist capable of going toe to toe with the biggest and bestest of duelist too.
I would like to say that there is a distinct possibly that the Pharaoh wouldn't even use the Egyptian God Cards against Joey. Which certainly would make this a closer duel then if he does use them.
Joey tells Yugi to give me back my red eyes or I'll break a piece of your puzzle off again and this time I'll throw it in the ocean. Yugi replies chill bro, I was going to give it back to you anyway, the bronze duelist deserves the bronze ace monster anyway. Anyhow, how does this gold medal look next to my golden puzzle?
I honestly think Atem won this duel against Joey. Not only that, I do think Atem uses both Slifer The Sky Dragon, The Winged Dragon Of Ra and Obelisk The Tormentor in this duel and probably Red Eyes-Black Dragon. However I do think Joey has improved as a duelist and Atem gave Joey back his Red Eyes-Black Dragon after the duel saying he earned it after a great duel. I do think Joey does use his grave robber card to bring back Red Eyes from Atems graveyard and I do think Joey does use the 3 monsters he earned in Battle City in this duel.
I’ll put this argument to rest. No Joey did not beat the Pharaoh. Joey is the type of person who would brag about beating somebody that strong but yet he never ever mentioned anything about beating the Pharaoh. Even in the final season when they were thinking where they gonna find a duelist that good enough to beat the Pharaoh. Joey wanted a go at the Pharaoh whereas everybody told him he had no chance. Why didn’t Joey bring up that he defeated the Pharaoh before if he had? Especially after Karina told Joey he was a joke and that he’s the only duelist strong enough to beat Pharaoh? It’s because Joey never defeated The Pharaoh. Joey probably put up a good fight to the point they both thought Joey earned the card back. But Joey never defeated The Pharaoh.
If Joey beat Yugi here they would have had him play against him in the Ceremonial Duel. Yugi didn't fight because of destiny, Yugi fought because he's the only one they thought could win. Same with DSOD, if Joey had this clean win against Yugi he would be getting chased by Kaiba and fighting Aigami.
i very recently read through the entire manga, so this whole thing is fresh in my mind. humor me for a moment. the answer is always in the narrative themes Joey as a character is meant to represent us, the audience. he relies on luck, often his hand bricks, he doesn't understand the game as much as the pros like yugi and kaiba but he's constantly learning and attempting to get better, facing challenges head on. when he loses the red eyes he explicitly states he wishes to get it back only through defeating yugi. so follow this line of thought: in battle city, joey is fighting to take his place as a proud and strong duelist just like yugi, that arc is his path to growth, and in the end, just like any of us watchers/readers, he ultimately fails due to BS circumstances even though by all means he had the win against marik... the reason joey did not get utterly destroyed and came dangerously close to defeating marik, but only god's will was the thing stopping him from clutching the win. this, again, is meant to represent the average person in the audience, who, being average, isn't likely to be a pro duelist or understand the game at that level. the theme is hard work gets you close to where you want to be, and its up to you to rise up again and face the next challenge head on so that you may grow, which is what joey's demeanor expresses after he wakes up from death (manga explicitly states that he died until coming back when yugi won against marik). finally, when we see atem and joey get ready to duel, i believe there's a thematic reason for why the duel is off-screened. precisely because joey represents the audience, and because atem carries the title of unbeatable king of games, it doesn't make sense for his friend who just tied with kaiba in third place at the tournament to suddenly beat him, it would shatter the illusion of the king of games, and that doesn't work right for a story (even though by all means it is perfectly set up through the conclusion of his duel with marik; barring physical exhaustion taking him out, he would have won fair and square just like yugi did right after, making them equals), so it was left vague and the answer given to us in the next arc when joey clearly has his red eyes card, something that was left for astute fans to pick up on without it being explicitly stated. yes, joey did beat the pharaoh, because he worked hard and did not let his BS loss get him down, he still saw himself as worthy of being yugi's equal, and got back his red eyes fair and square. and it makes sense, Atem's first loss is off screen, next his win is through the help of all his friends finding his lost name, THEN he finally loses to yugi and passes on, in a way it's a smoother transition than having his first loss be on-screen and taking some spark from the duel finale with yugi. this is all huge part of why i absolutely love the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga a group of my friends did an interview with Takahashi-sensei years ago (but konami ultimately did not allow them to publish it anywhere), in it we asked him the question about joey and atem's duel since we picked up on that detail and my comment was roughly his response. he also said that Tea Gardener is canonically the best duelist because she has a 1win/0loss ratio. lmao
The way I see it, Joey already proven that he can win without red eyes. Is it beneficial? definitely. Is it mandatory? No. Yoey has proven to he a true duelist without it and has earned it.
to be fair joey saying that his duel with the pharoh is his battle city well to be honest if joey didnt pass out in the Marik duel then it would have been a repeat of the finals from duelist kingdom to show just how far joey has come Marik wanted to toy with joey thinking him inferiour and it nearly cost him if it wasnt for the shadow game fatiguing joey it would have been another duel between frinds once again and it would have shown just how much joey improved realisticlly joey thought he had to beat the pharoh to be worthy of red eyes but we all know the pharoh he is a guy who can show you the truth that you mearly dont see so joey would have accepted red eyes even if he did lose that duel (which really with all the god cards and his deck in general the pharoh was litterally unbeatable he was only beaten or anything similar due to some bs) specificlly because the pharoh acknowledged him he was never 1 for the antie rule for one he only did it when it was absolutly neccessary and he knew red eyes truely belonged with joey just like blue eyes with kaiba Dark Magician and the gods with him he just has that sort of effect where he just knows and also joey does in fact look up to the pharoh and Yugi his best friends and realisticlly his teacher in so many ways we might not even know to get the pharoh to say to him after he performed extremely well and would have been 1 of the best people he has ever known both in heart and soul in all ways that is what joey was after and something tells me he did lose the duel but it was so close to the point it was down to 1 card and because joey pushed the pharoh to that point he felt he truely earned his Red Eyes and the Pharoh was more then happy to give it back to him 1 because he never saw it as his card to begin with joey lost it due to cheating which we all know he frowned apon massive joey was honorable, brave yet bold and had so much heart in every single move he made that even he himself was sweating to some degree not to the same degree as Marik but he was sweating so he felt joey was more then Worthy of such a Card which was his soul Card
1: even if joy wanted to win red eyes back it wouldnt be out of character for him to accept it in a loss if yugi told him he earned it. (he would preffer to win it but wouldnt decline it) 2: its imposible to claim joey won when the purpose of the ceremonial duel is so that the pharoh cant go in the afterlife undeafeated. 3: from a power standpoint even if we remove ra from the deck cause of pharoh not knowing the chant theres still slifer and obelisk which is way to much for joy to handle especially considering that the only people worthy to fight god cards are the other yugioh protagonists (yugi and judai) and kaiba. saying joey won against 2 gods would imply he is on MC or deutragonist level which just isnt true.
I have genuinely believed that the reason that Joey wasn't considered for the ceremonial duel was because it was a foregone conclusion from everyone that there was no single duelist more capable to defeat Atem than Yugi, a boy who knew him backwards and forwards. Not to mention the emotional significance of the duel for both Atem and Yugi. There was no reason that Joey would take that moment away from Yugi the same way that Atem wouldn't deny Joey his right to earn Red-eyes properly with a duel. But I also believe that Joey winning against Atem at Battle City would be full of moments where he could have done something to have a more decisive win but he hesitated for "insert reason here" and Joey called him on it after taking advantage of the misplay. That's often what happens when Joey goes against a duelist he respects. He refuses pity, hesitation, or restraint. You come at him without restraint or he will punish you for it. It only takes a few misplays to ruin a match. If Joey is as good as it is implied he is, even one misplay is all it would take to squeak out a proper win. Edit: I also don't believe that Atem would use the god cards against Joey. I truly don't.
It's interesting that you say Atem wouldn't use the god cards, because you also say Joey wouldn't accept pity or restraint. I agree with your characterization of Joey, which is precisely why I think it's out of the question that Atem wouldn't at least use Slifer and Obelisk. Ra's at least understandable, since in the manga, he didn't use it in the ceremonial duel either.
@@customcardguy Im going to put the ceremonial duel aside to discuss it after I bring up this point. Do we see Atem use the God cards against anyone who didn’t have a god card themselves? Aside from Jaiden, do we see it even one time? I haven’t. Outside of the ceremonial duel, we don’t see him use them even once against non-millennium item/god card users. This implies to me that he side decks them for most of Battle City and only pulls them out for shadow games and the like. Atem is a huge fan of fair play. Bringing back the ceremonial duel, Atem was told that for it to work he had to go 100 percent of everything he had and be defeated while doing so. Since the God cards were in his side deck, swapping them in was entirely necessary to meet those conditions. But one does not have to bring the force of a god down in order to have someone feel like they are a true duelist and given that the god cards are not Atem or Yugi’s soul cards, they would be even more unnecessary for a meaningful duel between the two. I imagine Atem would have had his deck set up closer to how he fought Arkana, very Dark Magician focused to really test Joey soul to soul. I would be surprised if Yugi ended up using exchange to try and give Joey the card that way halfway through the duel. Those kinds of moments that are had in a more intimate duel than one the Gods could ever visit upon them as duelists. The God cards were not necessary for Atem to be a True Duelist, so why would facing them make any difference in the eyes of Joey when both parties know that Atem doesn’t give them the same reverence as his magician. It’s like when I play DD Crow or Effect Veiler. Good options. Better plays, but I’m happiest when I run my archetypes pure. And if you have further questions to discuss this, I’m more than happy to continue to elaborate. I am a storyteller by passioncraft and I’m looking at this through that lens and the available information on the characters and context.
@@blackchibisan8116 To be fair, after Battle City, we don't see Atem duel for the rest of the manga until the ceremonial duel. The only other duel where he has a god card and doesn't use it is vs Lumis and Umbra. In the anime, the god cards are stolen in Waking the Dragons, so the only duel he has where he theoretically could've used them is vs Leon. All that aside, I don't think the question is so much would Atem would want to use the god cards or not. I think the question is would Joey accept Atem not using them. And that, in my mind, is unequivocally no.
@@customcardguy And to me, he would. If only because as powerful as they are, they aren’t the cards that Joey knows matters most to Atem. So I counter your question with do you think Joey would ask? But I’ll take it back to my other point as well. The god cards require resource investment and while Atem has pulled some bullcrap, Joey knows that too. It only takes a single misplay to ruin your chances at successfully summoning them. So let me give you a hypothetical. Yugi has two archetypes he uses to summon the god cards, the face knights and the magnet warriors. I didn’t see him running any dupes of anything in Battle City. With Joey’s level of disruption that he runs, do you see him being able to interfere with their engines? With his traps that can steal opponents monsters and his various other field removal options(the gods may not bow to time Wizard but magnets and man age like anyone else) Joey can control how many tributes Atem has access to. If Atem tries to discard and use monster reborn, Joey can do that even more often to summon the gods for himself thanks to cards like Graverobber letting him use Atem’s monster reborn to get the gods on his side or just taking advantage of Yugi having them there to Reborn them to his side. And due to the effect we see of Osiris during the Marik Duel, if Joey brought it out with Grave robber it would protect him from Obelisk’s effects even if Yugi got it out.
My take on this is that Joey probably would've had to win. Red Eyes was the first card that Joey ever earned. I don't believe he'd just accept it without a win.
Great video and I agree with the winner 🥇. I struggle to see Joey having the better deck tho . They both have a Mitch match or cards but at least yugi isn’t using battle warrior 😂
IMO, Atem bricked with Red Eyes and the match ended via Swordsman of Landstar attacking for game
xD fitting
atem bricking... do you hear yourself
@@Thepokedekhe prob doesn’t
One thing that I believe is inaccurate from those saying Joey would lose is about the god cards, the Pharaoh most likely wouldn't use the god cards in the match. The Pharaoh didn't even put Slifer in his deck until the Battle City finals and is unlikely to have them in his deck during a duel with a friend because unlike Kaiba, the Pharaoh knows they aren't toys.
This is not to say Joey wins if the Pharaoh doesn't use the god cards, but that victory for Joey isn't as far fetched as some would lead you to believe.
I mean I fully believe Joey wins as the Yugi is skilled but doesn't mind losing at all and the puzzle won't use its magic to help due to there being actually negative stakes for Yugi. He wants Joey to show him his best and pull out a win so he can get Red eyes back
@lightdarksoul2097 I think the odds are slightly in Yugi's favor. Overall, I think it would be a very close Duel with Yugi winning at the last second, just like in Duelist Kingdom and Yugi returns Red-Eyes because Joey earned it.
People really underestimate joey hes definitely able to beat the gods. Yugi and kaiba were out here saying they need 2 god cards and to sidedeck in a counter pick to beat marik but joey straight up beat him dead to rights and only lost due to exhaustion
@@jebbryant6522 lame sotp makr was just toying with joey he coudl cruahs at anyt time and joey ecan tbea thte gods joe yneed luck to win not skill yugi kaiba use skill
O
Peoepl really misunderstand that manage panel.
The condition for Joey to gain back Red Eyes wasn't for Joey to beat Yami Yugi or win Battle City. The condition was for Joey to prove he is a capable duelist able to stand on his own.
That's the debate though.
A) is defeating Yugi a condition for Joey to prove to himself he's a capable duelist
B) are the 2 goals of becoming a true duelist and getting back Red-Eyes separate goals, where only the latter is tied to the result of the duel
Considering other capable duelists have a significant loss record against Yami Yugi, it would be stupid to say beating him is the only way Joey can prove himself as a true duelist. We wouldn't question Mai or Kaiba at this point in the same way, but neither of them would beat Yugi. Joey proved himself against Marik, to the point Even Seto Kaiba acknowledged him. I don't think him beating Yugi is necessary.
@@tailsspin621 then why didnt yugi give joey his card back after that duel? why even duel then?
its not NECESSARY- but its simply the most narrative reasonable take.
@@ianslee4765 probably because Yugi and Joey didn't actually duel for the red eyes after battle city, not in the original source material (manga) anyway. Even though it's off screen, this duel is entirely an invention of the anime.
Idk if I see Joey/Jonouchi's pride allowing him to take back Red-Eyes if he lost.
One thing I want to point out is that the manga version of this sequence went very differently. The manga's battle city arc ends with Yugi and Joey fantasizing about dueling as true equals in the future, but we never get to see a duel happen because the story ends before they get home. The point is that Yugi and Joey's journey for self improvement will never end.
Also Joey never specifically said that he needed to win red-eyes as an ante. Joey just felt that he no longer deserved red-eyes after losing it and wanted to hone his skills to make up for the careless loss. He also wanted to help protect Yugi by loaning him the card. Even if Joey wasn't available in person, he could support his friend.
The argument for the pahroah winning also comes into play in gx where chummerly loses but he impressed crowler and the point of it was to see if he can earn crowler's respect, despite crowler saying he had to win, so in gx eventhough chummerly lost, he earned the right to go and achieve his dream.
You mean Chumley
@@mr.mimikyu2342 yes I do
its not just that Joey lost Red-eyes to Seeker, its also the way he lost. he was arrogant, didn't respect his opponent or their strategies, and tried to style on him even though Red-eyes was on the line. thats the reason i think that he couldnt consider himself a true duelist, and it messed him up. (also they beat the crap outta hm)
Watching yugi defeat the same opponent, by figuring out his exodia strategy, made him realize that Yugi was so much better a duelist, and it gave him something to strive for again. i think that for joey, Battle city was one big fight, not several individual duels. Red-eyes is still on the line for him, not because he lost a duel, but because the battle isnt over yet.
another thing is that victory isnt needed to be a true duelist. in fact, i think the most critical aspects joey gained at the end were those of loses. he accepted his loss to Odion, and acknowledged his opponents strength. and against Marik, he never gave up and fought till the actual end.
Joey and Yugis final battle would only happen AFTER Joey could call himself a true duelist anyway. So the way i see it, Yugi would have given Red-eyes back before the duel even began. i dont know how Yugi could go all out on Joey if all his heart wasnt in the deck without Red-eyes.
Insightful point about how Joey viewed his duel vs Seeker vs how Yugi dueled him. Certainly a catalyst for his understanding of what a true duelist is.
Right
The Zorc fight literally happened in a world of memories where the immigination could straight will things into being. It’s no surprise Red-Eyes was summoned.
So the question would be why Joey imagined up Red-Eyes as opposed to something else like Gilford, Gearfried, or Flame Swordsman
@customcardguy Because that was his main monster. In the manga, he doesn't get Red-Eyes back, but still conjures it in the final arc.
No. In the final mini-arc where someone has to duel and win against Atem to send him to the afterlife, Anzu explicitly states “no Duelist here has been able to defeat him.” Including Kaiba and Jonouchi.
She wasn’t there when the duel happened…so she doesn’t know that
@@chaosinorder9685 dude kaiba wood ben on joet as fi he beat yugi as kaiba kaor recode all duels that happen jeoy cant win and the maker wont have tea sya that of joey win
@@ssjgotenks2009 hm I don’t know considering how much Kaiba can’t stand Joey I doubt he would give him credit
Rafael beat him.
@@deviousj5868Rafael isn't cannon though
Personally, I think that what could've happened was that they did have a duel. In the middle, Joey manages to steal control of Red-Eyes (Through grave robber or a change of hearts effect. Maybe even Yugi using Red-Eyes as some sort of "test" for him to overcome, and once he does, he uses Grave Robber to get it back) but still loses in the end. Still, the fact that he managed to take it back mid-duel is enough for both of them. Proving that he can play without the crutch of Red-Eyes, but still has room to improve
wait so how again does this scenario of him stealing red eyes and still losing prove he can play without red eyes anymore than his duel against marik?
This is the most likely scenario to occur, but I do like the idea of Joey winning it back. I wish he won BC
@@ianslee4765 In the tournament, Joey never really proved himself as a duelist.
Against Odion, Joey should have been eliminated, but Marik saved him.
Against Marik, Joey only lasted as long as he did, because Marik was toying with him. People complain about the Shadow Game, but if not for that, Marik would have taken the game more seriously and beat Joey earlier, because he wouldn't have had fun torturing him.
Finally, against Kaiba, he lost again (this was poor writing in my opinion; the story would have been better for both Joey and Kaiba if Joey had won, but oh well).
So, Joey never really had a chance unfortunately. Joey's story arc really got screwed over
@@MichaelisBLee the anime constantly making joey a fall character even though he never was in the manga means you cant just use the kaiba v joey duel. its not canon.
wanna know how youre flatly WRONG from the source material stand point?
marik threw up blood and almost passed out, meaning he almost died too. thats how marik DUELS, pretending like he's ever learned to play another way is bs. its even stated odion is the one who actually won the cards.
KAIBA himself honors joey as a capable duelist after he faints.
the duel against odion is kinda stupid because it is one of the primary examples of the story taking over there- As soon as odion had magic jammer in his opening hand, he won. like what? thats not out dueling someone. thats just a matchup issue. cause odion not having magic jammer means trunade goes off and joey otks him. so the duel was absolutely close in skill.
joey beats the main duelists yugi did in the previous arc- showing he's at minimum previous arc yugi(you know, the king of games?) level.
"So, Joey never really had a chance unfortunately. Joey's story arc really got screwed over"
because you refuse the obvious- youre wrong. adding him beating(or somehow tying) yugi absolutely caps his arc PERFECTLY. because the narrative clearly leads here, you need more evidence it didnt happen. there just really isnt ANY aside from "i feel like yugi wouldnt lose"
@@ianslee4765 Thank you for your time, but all you've done is contest your interpretation of the story against mine.
So, even if you so confidently declare me wrong; nothing you've stated here makes you right either, because we're contesting our opinions and interpretation of the story.
We may as well be arguing what's a better colour: blue or red, because it's nothing, but our opinions clashing.
For you, Joey dueling Marik to the point of making him nervous was enough for you to accept his arc as convincing enough stand on the level of Atem and Kaiba.
For me, it was not enough. Because ultimately, Joey still could not defeat a duelist who was not taking him seriously, nor could he handle Odion.
Even excluding his anime duel with Kaiba, Joey simply did not do enough for me in this arc to convince me he was on the level of Kaiba and Atem.
Yes, Joey proved himself as a duelist, but not at the level of Kaiba and Atem.
We watched the same events unfold, but same to different conclusions.
Neither of us needs to be right or wrong.
But I'll hold to my interpretation of the story: Joey was not at the level of Atem and he lost, but still earned his Red-Eyes Black Dragon back.
Im of the opinion that Joey lost but like Rocky and Creed, he did so good that even in losing he basically won and Yugi gave him the card back.
Here's my personal head canon:
First as you all but confirmed yourself the point was not for Joey to win it was to prove himself a true duelist. There's no doubt in my mind that Joey absolutely would have done that regardless of whether he won or not and at this point in the series I don't think that Joey is good enough yet to beat Atem, he'd give one hell of a fight but I don't believe he'd win.
Joey would take the loss and Atem would congratulate him on a duel well fought, acknowledge him as a true duelist, and as promised give him his Red Eyes back. Being acknowledged as a true duelist would mean far more to Joey than just winning and as long as that happens Joey would feel he's earned it and accept Red Eyes back.
I think this is the most likely outcome
I really think the duel ended in a draw. Reasons? 1) It would allow for Yugi's character to maintain his record and retain his "King of Games" title since it wasn't a loss. If you tied with the King you tied with the King, you still weren't able to defeat him. 2) I think a draw would still be an outcome good enough where Joey would be willing to accept Red-Eyes back.
I'm really sad that Takahashi never showed this duel in the manga. It was probably THE most anticipated duel of Battle City outside of Yugi vs. Kaiba and Yugi vs. Marik
I can understand his decision, but yeah it was built up from the very beginning of the arc all the way to the end. And especially since otherwise, Atem and Jonouchi don't duel in the manga, woulda been nice to see.
Yugi vs marik didn't hit the same because Joey basically beat him (all he had to do was say attack) so we know what yugi was about to do. Joey was basically the best or second best duelist in that whole tournament
"Joey runs low level monsters to avoid bricking"
Well, this is actually not true. Through his Battle City decklist in the anime he has a total of 13 of his 40 cards that are either level 5 or higher or are a Spell/Trap cards that are only able to be used with one (maybe 2) targets in his deck (such as Graceful Dice which his only confirmed target is Swordsman of Landstar, Poly when he only has one Fusion he can make - since Thousand Dragon isn't a Fusion in the anime, or [anime] Foolish Burial which his only use for is a combo with Graverobber). He's one of the few characters who actively bricks on-screen as well - both in the battle royale prior to the semifinals and in his duel with Odion where while he does make plays, he still hard draws into a ton of his bothersome high level monsters that don't really help him and when he's on the back foot and needs to topdeck he makes four dead draws in a row (we see three of those draws - Poly, Shield & Sword, Salamandra).
Yugi probably has more cards that "could" brick but considering he has more general purpose backrow, and he only reaches 13 level 5+ monsters if you give him all 3 Egyptian Gods. In the manga Joey has fewer brick possibilities but just fewer cards shown in general, he's down to 7.
Plus we see Yugi actively make a lot of changes to his deck through the tournament, most of the cards that cause Joey to have brick potential are ones he runs consistently. Though most likely his deck would look something like what we see from his duel with Judai in GX, which certainly is a brickfest with double digits of confirmed cards that could brick him (Dark Magician, DMG, Buster Blader, BLS and its Ritual, Valkyrion, Archfiend of Gilfer, Thousand Knives, Swift Gaia and the three Egyptian Gods).
Is there a reason you believe Yugi changes his deck during Battle City? Other than adding his antes and Fiend's Sanctuary, I don't recall coming across a point that explicitly stated this, but I may have missed that.
You're right that Joey does brick on screen, but at least in the case against Odion, it was written that way for a dramatic finish. This isn't to say that Joey can't brick, but rather, Yugi, if we ran multiple simulations, would brick more often than Joey. The point is moot though since bricking in the series only happens for dramatic reasons, and so "deck strength" wise, I give a firm nod to Yugi.
@@customcardguy We see periodical scenes of Yugi modifying his deck in between some duels, usually as a background element while he and the Pharaoh are talking. Though it's mostly in the finals.
Moreso the reason is because it's generally implied that characters in the anime don't run over 40 cards at any given time (as I recall the only Yugioh anime character who ever is directly shown/stated to run more than 40 is Goha Yuuga) and Yugi's decklist in Battle City has significantly more than that.
In total Yugi is shown to have around 80 distinct cards throughout Battle City and some are only cards he has in his deck after a period where he could have or was shown to be looking over his deck. For instance, he uses "Exile of the Wicked" only one time, in a duel against Bakura. It's a card that doesn't really work for Yugi's general strategy but makes sense for him to think could be useful against Bakura's Occult deck. While not all of his cards are that situational, there's reason to believe that he makes minor tweaks during the main segment of Battle City and larger tweaks in between rounds of the finals.
Joey it's a bit tougher to make that argument, namely in that his Battle City decklist is shown to have about 40 cards in total, and he doesn't dramatically change his lineup of cards in the finals. He might make tweaks but not to the same extent as Yugi.
In any case, the implication through the anime that characters don't run more than 40 cards in a specific duel is one that generally holds true and in most cases there aren't long stretches where a character would be unable to change their decks and they also use over 40 cards over those episodes.
@Zetact_ That's only true for the anime. In the manga, Yugi only uses 39 cards, discluding Valkyrion as it is a Fusion monster in the manga. Also, in Duelist Kingdom he only uses 37 if you include the fact that Ritual monsters don't have physical cards like Fusion monsters.
Also also, Jack's Knight and Berfomet are 4 star monsters which helps with the bricking issue, but in the manga he also has Feral Imp which is a 5 star monster in the manga.
Being a 'true duelists' means believing in yourself, and having confidence in yourself.
This is why Joey finally felt worthy of dueling Yugi
He would of lost...OBV, but since both Yugi and Joey realized how far Joey came, Yugi would of let Joey have it back, and Joey - realizing this truth - would humbly accept it back, knowing he earned it.
That's to say this shouldn't have been off screened.
My head canon is simply that joey plays red-eyes burn and uses graverobber to grab monster reborn to revive red-eyes black dragon attacking it into dark magician and activating red-eyes burn to burn them both but technically yugi's lifepoints drop to 0 first then joey's which is good enough for both duelists to decide it was a good ending to their duel. It also is reminiscent of yugi using dark sage against joey using time wizard and joey HAS done a very similar play already when he used graverobber to get summoned skull in duelist kingdom.
As for answers to the god cards joey could always make the god cards battle themselves if we assume yugi get 2 gods on board joey has magical arm shield to make the gods clash and possibly both crash
Red eyes burn didn't exhist in battle city
@@Citizen_Nappa23 who's to say it didnt and it just never had use to be played or got drawn
My headcanon was always that at this point, Yugi and the Pharaoh were connected enough that the duel between the two of them could play out WITHOUT the intervention of the Pharaoh, thus this WAS indeed a Yugi vs Joey fight, not a Yami vs Joey duel.
It wasn’t though. As you can tell that was Atem. As it was also Atem that made that promise with Joey in the first place.
Except you can clearly see that it IS indeed Atem and Joey Having their duel.
I dont know what 🤡 actually liked this comment,its totally wrong
Gwinn, on a yugioh post? This is a sign, make more yugioh tracks!
@@MrEffectfilmsremember that yugi can transform and not listen to yami, like when he dueled mai.....
I’m impressed that you’re referencing the manga over the anime for this video
Im my mind, it always went along the lines of, yugi won, but tried to give red eyes to joey anyway. Joey refused at first, but yugi gives a speech about how even though he didn't win, joey fought with the spirit of a true duelist, and red eyes wants to be with him. Joey accepts the card, promising that with it, he'll become a duelist able to finally defeat yugi.
Theres also another point not brought up here, and thats Kaiba. We know that kaiba has the ability to spy on any duel fought with a kaiba corp duel disk. We also know that kaiba is obsessed with yugi, to the point of making a fully interactive hologram pharaoh to duel against in dsod. If yugi lost a duel, and to Joey of all people, kaiba would know, and he'd be furious. As far as im aware, kaiba kinda drops off after battle city in the manga, but considering he doesn't bring up this duel in either dsod, which is canon to the manga, or in waking the dragons or the millennium world in the anime, it seems safe to assume that yugi won. While kaiba would still hate joey, he would be dar more weary of a duelist who could beat yugi, and he just isn't.
Never thought about that last point. Can you imagine Kaiba watching that duel, going berserk at seeing Joey win xD
Joey is a really admirable character...
No milenium item
No plot armor
Risk taker and cleve
Won against duelists who cheated
Won against pro duelists as a novice
Would have defeated marik if not predestined to lose.
The shadow realm made the duel unfair
I always felt like Joey CAN beat the pharoh, the issue is luck, afterall joey nearly beat kaiba if not drawed with him. Outside the God cards I feel like yugi's standard deck is overall superior compared to joey's deck. Also I feel like the pharaoh's deck during battle city was likely ALOT weaker than his final deck. Not that he was holding back but more his deck was still in its experimental phase in areas since he had prepared his deck to atleast attempt to counter certain duelist. They also both knew most of Atem's battle city staples so it would be a very close match. It's VERY likely he didnt have the god cards in his deck since well NORMALLY he would avoid using unless it was vital, though I could make an argument over him having atleast ra because joey would likely want to be able to defeat said god card. I also feel like how yusei got stardust dragon back is how, how he basically took it back mid battle, is most likely how joey would have "won" the card back. Though I LOVE your theory
Maybe Joey would pull a Mako where instead of Graverobbering a card that could win the duel, he takes Red-Eyes instead and loses the duel
@@customcardguy it’s why I said won in quotes since he got his main objective in getting the red eyes back. Since that’s the main objective willing the duel while he tried his hardest to also do was never the full point of the test.
I think stem telling Jounchi that he has truly became a dualist, even after stem winning would be enough for Jounchi to still accept red eyes.
Atem*
A well informed and concise video, well done! Personally, I always believed the Pharoah won but Joey made him work for it. I imagine Joey wouldve taken the early game due to Yugi subconciously be holding back, only for Joey to insist Yugi use *everything* to win.
Relenting, Yugi starts using all his tricks, maybe even summons Slifer. Joey, through luck and grit is able to take out Slifer, greatly impressing Yugi. Unfortunately for Joey, he leaves himself wide open doing so and Dark Magician finishes off Joey.
one of the few to give an answer I can agree with
First video I’ve seen of your channel but wow what a great video with a very clear structure! Incredible research 👏
Im on neither side so this is my answer:
At time of this duel I think both of them were already true duellists but Joey still had more room to grow. So with that in mind I dont think Joey defeated Atem but Atem gave him Red-Eyes back which Joey didn’t refuse. Now this didn’t mean he would use it immediately and I assume Joey gave himself enough time to grow until he had the confidence to use the card again. But it could’ve also been a lot simpler and Joey accepted the card regardless of the outcome of the duel and would use it straight away because his journey as a duellist (this duel included) gave him enough assurance to move forward with Red-Eyes as his ace.
Much love from Switzerland 🇨🇭✌️
It'd be ok for Atem to lose this duel since nothing was on the line for once.
Jounochi won, idc what anyone says.
Him losing but getting Red-Eyes anyway would be so lame regardless of context.
Also he technically beat Marik without any god cards.
Atems battle city deck is awful and he only wins because of plot armor, and as we all know, plot armor only works if the protagonist losing would halt the story. So Atem's plot armor would have no power here, and would likely favor Jounochi since he actually has something to lose and gain.
no it wont that wood make jeoy king of games joey cant beat kaiba in battle city there no damn wya he wood beat atem
@@ssjgotenks2009 youre really concerned over a title in an unofficial match off the books? Jounochi is the godfather of games, and he for sure beat atem.
Hell, *I* could beat Atem.
I'm pretty sure *you* could beat Atem.
Honestly, I genuinely wish I believed that Joey won, but I just don’t and it’s kind of painful.
Given that Joey has his Red-Eyes Black Dragon card again in later seasons, I'd say he did. I'd also say that Yugi/Atem didn't use the Egyptian God Cards in their duel, to give Joey more of a chance.
no dude kaiba wood ben on joey ass of joey of he won so no joey did not win
@@ssjgotenks2009 Do you actually think they would have told him?
The only thing I dislike about this video is we are assuming Atem *wants to use the God Cards*. He used them in Battle City as a means to an end, I am not convinced he would use them when the world isn't at stake, and I think an Atem vs Joey duel would reasonably forgo the God cards and Atem would focus more on his Dark Magician and support cards, with top ends like Buster Blader/Dark Paladin, Valkyrion, et al.
Also don't forget he purposely excluded them from his deck during the arc with Kaiba's tournament after the Dartz saga. I think when the stakes are lower he isn't going to use the gods
And to counter the possible "Yugi used Slifer against Jaden" argument: Jaden was trying to take the title of King of Games. Joey was trying to prove himself as a true duelist. For the latter, defeating Yugi with Yugi using the God cards is not at all necessary to succeed in realizing that goal
@@LunarWingCloud I can see why people might think Atem wouldn't want to use the god cards, but I think Atem would ultimately want to give Joey his all because that's what Joey would expect in a battle of true duelists. Basically, it's not just Atem's viewpoint we have to consider here, it's Joey's too
Your last two points seem a bit conflicting. If Yugi were to use Slifer vs Jaden because it's for the title of King of Games, so was his duel with Leon. I think the god cards were excluded from the KC arc because any inclusion of them draws attention away from everything else going on. In-universe-wise, it's highly probable that they just got thrown out by Stromberg's cost or that yeah Yugi just didn't use them.
I think it's kinda cool that the Pharoah has a deck that is completely full of bricks and conflicting strategies. I think it only works for him because he has the power of the Millennium puzzle which gives him a luck boost to draw complementary cards one after another. It would be absolutely horrible if anyone else's used it.
i still believe joey won because if you think about it by the finals of battle city joey was calling out yugi's\atem's moves when the others were confused by the moves indicating that joey studied yugi over the course of their careers leading up to their match at the end of battle city and by taking in that condition i think joey came up with a strategy to beat the pharaoh and win back red eyes
I'd say Kaiba even more so studied Yugi. Dude literally tracked every duel and studied them maniacally. And he still lost
@customcardguy Kinda loses because his deck sucks. It has so many bad cards, and bricks in general, even in the anime.
@@customcardguyIn my opinion joeys just naturally a better duelist than kaiba he has every card in rotation and and millions of dollars while joeys using a structure deck with some hand me downs and was trained by Yugi. I always saw the duel as the student surpassing the master.
@@Yazarastsu yeah, there should be a rule in which if you win with Swordman of landstar, no Umi legendary fisherman, insect queen, shield and sword, etc. you become king of games automatically
Hey, so remember back in the power creep video, when I had suggested ways to use rules changes and “boons” to even the playing field between stronger and weaker decks?
I had in idea on how to buff normal summons/sets in a way that would give Normal, Gemini and Flip monsters a new lease on life:
“The _Restricted_ Summon”, which would be a second Normal Summon/Set for each player, and it would be “Restricted” (on top of following the pre-existing rules for normal summons/sets) in that A: You can only Normal Summon/Set Normal, Gemini and Flip monsters with it, and B: neither player could use those monsters as tributes or material the turn they are Summoned/Set by a “restricted” Summon/Set. Also, you would have to announce when you are doing a “Restricted” summon/set instead of a proper Normal Summon/Set.
THAT would allow players to get a second body out on the board easier, in such a way that it wouldn’t be easy to immediate snowball into extra deck or tribute plays left and right, BUT said monster would at the same time be momentarily protected by popular outs like Super Poly or Kaiju’s or the like that uses tributes and materials as a board clear.
So, if I wanted to run a Kaiba sorta deck, I could normal summon Kaiser Sea Horse, then restricted summon a Blue-Eyes White Dragon using Kaiser as a tribute (since it’s a 2 for 1 tribute for LIGHT monsters), and now that Blue-Eyes is out on the field and protected under the Anti-Tribute/Material clause (while also makeing sure I can’t use it for summoning most other objectively better monsters). Meaning that, with the right setup, Vanilla beatsticks could see a new lease on life they haven’t had in DECADES. Or I could just use both normal summons to make a Gemini become an effect monster IMMEDIATELY (revoking their classic hang up of needing a second normal summon), or just play mind games with my opponent with that extra Flip set.
it's been said that Kazuki Takahashi himself said Joey won this duel, since he got back his Red Eyes in both continuities, we saw him use it in the orichalcos arc of the anime and in dark side of dimensions he showed it off to aigami at one point
Did he tell you that personally? I've never once seen this addressed.
@@raiHo15 yes he did. I was there
@@Aescalona your lier you say thsi now that he not ehre to call you out on it joey could not beat atem ever if jeoty iwn that wood make him the king of games kaiba wood goen after joey ass
Think about it
If not for shenanigans, joey wouldve won both battle city and duelist kingdom. Yugi pulled dark sage as a specific counter to time wizard, which joey had no way of knowing. No dark sage, yugi is through and joey wins
And then joey did beat marik on a technical level in battle city. He defeated the big bad of the season. His gearfried had enough damage to end the game, he just succumbed to marik's mental torture before declaring his attack. To say he has 0 chance against the pharaoh is kinda nuts. At this point in the series, he even holds his own against kaiba, and is easily a top 5 duelist in the franchise, and by far the strongest duelist to never touch a god card
hell no he wonted if joey had beat marik and atme beat kaiba 2 gods vs joey deck who cant use ra joety wood be curshed
In the Orichalcos Arc Joey uses Red Eyes a lot. If we consider this unseen battle was a loss for Joey but Pharaoh gave it back since he would leave the mortal realm soon... Pharaoh did not include any cards he got from Battle City (except the gods) in his "final deck" vs regular Yugi in the finale
I like to think Joey did win. I mean he would have beaten marik and it would have been the best plot twist in anime history but no
I think the biggest thing going for Joey on point #3 is Yugi has absolutely nothing to gain by winning and nothing to lose by losing, whereas Joey is dueling (maybe) for pride and (likely) for his Red Eyes. There's no motivation or point to invoking the heart of the cards or any other mystical shenanigans to win against Joey, whereas Joey has to trust in his deck completely to get the upper hand, which I expect him to do. Win/loss records don't really seem to be considered much in-universe, so I think this is a duel of who WANTS it more and that's certainly Joey. Even if Yugi has a 99.9% chance of winning, you better believe Joey's popping the Time Wizard to eke out his 0.01% chance to win
Unless Pharaoh goes ballistic like he did during that one duel in Waking the Dragons where he used the seal of orichalcos because he was going to lose a didn't that didn't matter at all, where nothing was at stake until Yugi MADE it a life-or-death struggle to try and avoid losing lol. Then yeah, suddenly Yugi's not dueling for fun anymore and Joey's probably losing no matter what.
I would say Yugi/Atem's motivation is to uphold his promise to Joey to duel as true duelists. In that regard, the "stakes" are the pride of a true duelist and respecting your friend by giving him your all. But I can understand additional points as to why Joey would have an even bigger motivation.
I want to add the reason Atem did not take one of Arcana's Dark Magicians is because Arcana cut his Dark Magicians narrower so his opponent will likely put one on top when cutting the deck.
Depends on the medium. In the manga, Yugi won. In the anime, Joey kinda had to win because he kept using Red-Eyes in the filler.
no lame yugi just give him back and there is no filler all is canon get with the time wnat prog way do think epgaes is alvie in gc with the card form seaosn4 of yugioh huh cnaon tay wya and the yugioh make said byond time 5ds mvoie is cnaon who alvie int peagess prof anime si fulyl cnaon so is manga mtuvlusle dude duel link even says this get with times sotp saying filelr hwen you ben profing wrogn
for everyone saying atem won you are all wrong joey would never accept it back if he lost as we have seen on screen so he had to win and we know he got red eyes back
I like to believe that Joey won but he let Yugi keep the king of games title because it wasn't an official tournament match. But that's just me being a huge Joey fan and would love if he had a win on Yugi 😂
I'm of the opinion that he won. Battle City was about Joey's growth as a duelist and his ability to catch up to Yugi, just as much as it was about Yugi trying to get closer to his past. Both characters accomplish their goals by the end. Makes more sense narratively that he would beat him in the end, especially after it was shown he would've beaten Marik.
Do I think Joey beat all three God Cards? No. Hell, Yami didnt even use Ra against Yugi in the Ceremonial Duel. But saying he wouldn't win because he runs luck based cards isn't a good argument to me when Yugi also runs luck cards like Magical Hats. And Yu-gi-oh is a luck based game.
I don't think I mentioned Joey runs luck-based cards. In fact the opposite. I said his reliance on those cards dwindles as Battle City goes on. But Yugi's deck is still stronger.
To your point, maybe the Pharaoh doesn't use Ra, as he didn't against Yugi in the ceremonial duel. But I don't think he would take out all 3 because both of them would see that as a sign of disrespect to Joey.
Pharaoh's opening hand was DM, Red Eyes, Ra, Slifer, & Obelisk. Joey wins with direct attk from Flame swordsman and baby dragon
The base of my argument is going to be the duels they had against Marik.
Joey lost only on a technicality of the shadow game, had he been able to declare an attack, Joey would have won. Mariks duel with Yugi, Marik has Yugi beat at the end but because of a change of heart/spirit (not the card), forfeits. Based off those duels and Yugi not using the God cards. Joey won the duel.
The Pharaoh won the duel against Joey. The outcome was very similar as Joey x Rex Raptor in Duelist Kingdom, with the effect of Time Magician. The difference is that the effect of Time Magician was in benefit of Yugi instead of Joey.
Joey wins but the pharaoh and god cards were not used because it was a no cost duel.
Would either "true duelist" accept the Pharaoh as dueling at less than full strength?
The gods are loyal to the pharoah and would not intentionally harm his friends, even in a duel.
The Pharoh's luck boost that gives him the ability to draw the correct card when needed only works when the stakes of victory vs defeat is high.
Losing Red Eyes was not vital to the Pharoah.
Therefore Joey won against Yugi (not the Pharoah).
“Yug, I’ve seen your browser history and-.”
“I concede this duel.”
Dont forget that the pharaoh's ability (lets call it the heart of the cards) gets stronger, the more dire the situation becomes. When you come off of a tournament where everybody's lives were on the line, against a deranged serial killer, and you go for a fun backyard duel with your best pal, the stakes arent quite as dire. It would make sense for yugi not to always draw the perfect card when absolutely nothing is at stake, other than joey winning back his red eyes. Damn, the heart of the cards might even think that joey getting his REBD back IS the optimal play in that situation. Add that to Joey's growth both as a duelist and a character, and i dont think Yugi wins as easily as people think he would.
And then on top of that, Yugi wouldn't use god cards that can hurt people physically, as much if not more than a shadow game, against his best friend, who was a great help in defeating Marik and recovering said cards
I think the Pharoah is extremely persuasive especially in regards to Joey. Joey looks up to him and to have the Pharoah say with all his heart that Joey deserves the Red eye's would definitely go a long way to pushing a conflicted Joey into taking it. I'd say that is likely how it went down. Joey did really well but lost and he didn't wanna take the card. The Pharoah comforts him and tells Joey that he absolutely won it in his eyes.
Well he does have Red Eyes in dark side of dimensions so he either won or did baller enough to get it back. Joey is one of the only people to actual know how to play the game.
I'm pretty sure yugi won. For two reasons; 1. He was worried about his title in the final round of the world cup championship. 2. He said it was too risky him dueling against the pharaoh. Aside from the fact that he's still a bit of an amature duelist since he always relies too heavily on luck. Hell he's done that loads of time. And I'm sure yugi would give it back out of his somewhat exceptionally dueling most importantly he's his friend. But in the manga i know since as someone said kazuki confirmed it. But not anime wise of course
I think Joey won. In yugioh universe heart of the cards is guided heavily by will power, fate, etc. Since this was just a friendly duel with no souls or end of the world at stake, I think Yugi's power level is nerfed a little bit from that perspective. Not that yugi wouldn't try to win, just that Joey probably wanted to win more. Combine that with the red eyes being fated to be his and I see Joey getting lucky with all of his coin flip/dice roll shenanigans and coming up with the win.
I can see Joey's will to win being higher in this moment, but also, the Pharaoh is the most competitive of gamers, so the "stake" if you will is his unblemished record.
no if joey win he wood ben know as some who could face atem at the end btu di dnot he wood stpe up nto run form kaiba ass in dark side movie it prof he lost
It still bugs me how people say “Joey would’ve lost if Marik was dueling seriously” like, no. That’s just how Marik duels. That’s how he fought everyone but Odion. Marik lost almost every duel he was in. He dueled his best against Yugi, someone he’s played and lost to multiple times already so he had info in his deck’s strategy. Meanwhile Marik kept grabbing new ones
The shadow realm wasn't fair. If it was a regular duel. Joey would of won.
I always thought that Joey didn’t necessarily have to win to get red eyes back, just that he improved and had true honor as a duelist during their duel
I'm of the opinion that Joey won. It makes sense out of a narrative perspective since we've never really seen the protagonist lose an 'easy' duel until zexal where that's kinda part of the narrative(?) There isn't conclusive evidence of course but in a meta. Also can we remember that Yami wouldn't use the god cards on Joey since he'd possibly end up comatose? Jaden was an exception due to Yugi sensing yubel. Joey doesn't have that advantage so the god cards should be out. Also Atem may not take antes and that is set in stone, it's not his style right? However he WOULD adhere to it if he lost. Joey wouldn't take it since he'd just end up saying "nah, I wanna git it back fair and square' (I can't write a Brooklyn accent sorry) the point being that it doesn't matter what Atem thinks in terms of whether or not Joey is a true duelist it matters what Joey thinks of himself. Also let's address the millennium puzzle because I've heard it been said that the puzzle grants good luck under certain conditions and while I can see that being plausible (I've never been given concrete evidence) we can all agree that a duel between these two wouldnt call for that power to be called upon, unconsciously or otherwise. Also going back to the ante rule for a moment let's keep in mind that Joey's deck has gotten significantly better while Atem only made minor upgrades from when he had a date with tea that one time. His chances aren't as unbalanced as people think. Finally in the waking the dragons arc Joey stands alongside Atem and Kaiba boy to be a welder of the claw of Hermos which signifies narratively that he DOES stand alongside those two in terms of strength. Atem isn't without fair losses either *cough seal of orichalcos usin ass cough* so he can make a mistake and isn't infallible all the time. Finally Joey not being the person to send the pharaoh back to the afterlife could simply be because he didn't have the heart to? Like yeah they all agreed he should be laid to rest but it's another thing to be the one to do it you know? (Also God cards put people in comas in the anime if they have no ties to ancient Egypt which makes me wonder if mokuba is safe since he's kaibas brother but I didn't see him in the past so probably not.) I'm not saying he conclusively did or didn't but given the facts he's got at least a 45% chance, I'd say fifty but then again I overthink these things.
The god card concern I think is really just Ra. I don't think Slifer or Obelisk at any point hurt anybody in any way when used in a non-shadow game. For example, Kaiba used it on Koji (the bully in Battle City) and all that happened was he was shook lol.
Atem would certainly give up Red-Eyes if he lost, but the point here is that it's not necessary that he'll keep it if he wins. So it's not an ante-duel in the traditional sense.
@@customcardguy I can't recall off the top of my head but I think it was mentioned during the duel against strings where he got slifer maybe? Then again you aren't wrong that the comas were shadow game duels.... However the point you made was (if I remember correctly) that Joey had to have a duel against Joey as a true duelist but I don't think that would be enough since Yugi and I think Yami would easily agree that he is especially given their duel in duelist kingdom. I agree that Yugi and Yami would give it back if he won or lost, however I just don't see Joey accepting if he were to lose. I think the point is that he wants to feel that he stands by them as an equal.
Why is it assumed they can only duel once, maybe they just duel till Joey wins and Atem doesn’t have to take any cards from Joey when he wins so its not a regular ante. So it could take a few duels but Joey could eventually win and it still works for the ceremonial duel since if it took him like ten tries or so he would still be a bad pick since they only have one shot and his chances of winning would be low.
Joey beat Marik, Marik used magic and cheated a win.
To be fair, Joey used friendship to defeat Odion.
@@customcardguy Friendship is part of the game and is a completely valid play.
@@OmegaChase1002😂😂😂😂 what
He didn’t beat Marik, that’s why Marik advanced to the finals and Joey was worm food.
@@Josephextreme its why archetypes are a thing
Yugi won and gave the red-eyes back because Joey fought a good duel and proved himself as a duelist.
I KNOW for a FACT that Yugi was on his last legs and pulled a plot armor and would've won but Joey had one last card to play and it was a gamble. that's how he won. time wizard or some gamble burn card or something. I know for a FACT that THATS how joey won the duel
Atem did not use his Millennium Puzzle in the duel. And since his deck was full of cards that require at least 2 sacrifices, he bricked hard.
atem dont need vne use the plzze to draw did oyu see hjs deul with yugi no plze he draw what he need
My arguement is that if Joey/Jonouchi couldnt beat Kaiba, he couldnt beat Atem. Im sure he gave it all against Atem to prove his skill and ferver as a true duelist. That's what the duel was about.
One could make the argument that joey was going to win without red-eyes but the phraoah had one last trick up his sleeve that made him win and the outcome would have remained the same even if he had red-eyes, so lets say the pharoah at the last minute uses magical cylinder so Joey concludes that even if I had red-eyes it wouldn't of mattered, this duel is yours yugi. The pharoah and red-eyes sensing that because Joey aceepted that even if he had red-eyes he'd still lose allows him to have it back.
We never got to see but somehow Joey earned his Red Eyes back. That duel was probably for Joey to just prove that he is worth using red eyes(not in a rude way). Some duels in these generations have mentioned the purpose of duels isn’t about winning or losing.
one more thing, little yugi is BETTER at duel monster then the Pharaoh, so the pharaoh playing is better for Joey, as he is the weeker duelist, as the pharaoh is just more confident than yugi, despite him being better
I think it's hard to determine that. Obviously by the end of the series Yugi has surpassed the Pharaoh, but at what point that happens is hard to discern. I can see why you would think he always was, but it's just tough to say definitively.
I think that while Joey lost the duel, he impressed Yugi/Atem enough with how far he's come as a duelist, Yugi/Atem would've given Joey back his Red-Eyes as sign of respect and friendship.
If Joey had defeated Yugi wouldnt have Seto have flipped out when he heard of it, like in Waking the Dragons?
It's the piece that's difficult to fit because of how anime filler disrupts manga continuity. Joey and Kaiba don't see each other again in the manga after Battle City.
Narratively though, I would simply say that Joey and Yugi knew that duel was a personal moment between the two of them, and so didn't bring it up to Kaiba.
@@customcardguy dude sotp it nto filler wake up get withg the times it fulyl cnaon wnat rpfo the yugi amek siad byond time 5ds mciei is cnaon who alvi ein it paues prfos the anime is cnaon so sotp mang anime not the osme timeline you in salt the morrmy iof yugioh make wit flieir leis it cnaon anime and manga are nto the soem duel the yugioh make tolf you duel link is cnaon game then anime is cnaon in thee game and so is manga ther is no filelr yugioh is mutlvus hwo do you not knwo this a tthis point
I do want to think Joey won the duel not only because he’s a stubborn guy who probably wouldn’t want Red Eyes back unless he proved himself, but also for the sheer salt Kaiba would have knowing that the guy he always called “a third rate duelist” was able to beat his rival legitimately before he did.
Atem/Yugi don't like to use the gods against regular people and doesn't want to use it on friends.
oh bull shit id that was cae he wont used1 of them on jaden in gx
I don't think Joey won but yugi seeing him worthy of getting back red eyes
I choose to think Joey won, solely because that’s what I want to believe and Takahashi never told us the outcome so I can do that.
The result may depend on whether the God cards are used or not which I doubt since they want a fair duel & I believe both have a good chance so Joey likely could've won
Joey gained control of red eyes. Then he ran away with it. Simple. 😂
there is also an author comment where the duel would conclude with "Red-Eyes vs Time Wizard" in some capacity, so it would literally be decided on a spin... which has failed before, but it'd be one hell of a gamble
It would be a nice little circular finish because that's how Joey won Red-Eyes the first time
Considering he lost to Kaiba for 4th place he most likely loses.
He beat Marik. Someone Atem needed 2 gods and 1 extra card to beat.
@OmegaChase1002 yeah but marik was just messing with him to cause him more pain. He could have won earlier in the match if I recall.
@@streetguru9350 i seriously doubt that.
I believe that the pharaoh won against Joey and gave it back to him similar to how red eyes is more than just a powerful dragon. In the 1999 movie when the kid Shougo pulls Red eyes from a pack the card owner states that Blue eyes is a dragon that represents power and brings its owner Victory while the red eyes is a dragon that brings its owner Potential but only for one with the courage to fight. Joey from the beginning after getting red eyes from Rex has had his potential as a duelist grow never once betraying it. and after he lost it and joey gave it for Yugi to hang onto until he duels for it back his potential as a duelist without it grew to the point he made it to the semifinals of Battle city faced down the Sun Dragon Ra in its phoenix mode and returning from a Yami No game/Game of darkness. Now having lost to the Pharaoh Yugi could say that after Joey gave him his Red eyes he saw his potential as a true duelist grow so now why not give him back the dragon of potential and see how far his dueling potential will grow more with it then without it.
Yea it’s possible that Joey could have won. I think it would have been competitive and close, but not as close as yugi vs kaiba. I always seen it as more a win in growth for Joey instead of an actual win in the duel. I think yugi won in the duel, but Joey won in that moment. Great video!
I believe Joey won, probably with some insane lucky coin flip or dice roll.
I hope the pharoah won and gave it back to be nice.
Joey is a 3rd rate duelist with a 4th rate deck
Honestly, would have pefer it was Yugi vs Joey, not Atem vs Joey.
Show sign of yugi growth as a duelist and standing for his own battle since Bandit Keith.
Funny how not having red-eyes was better for his deck that running it with the battle city rules.
Probably why he promptly removed Giltia and Flame Swordsman too xD
@@customcardguy I mean, at least later with blue flame swordman he managed to do something with him, Red-eyes without claw of hermos does nothing for his deck. Why run him, when he has Jinzo. Same attack points for one less tribute and a busted for the time effect. Also, Jinzo has a very similar symbolic meaning since he won it from his first battle city duel.
Take a shot each time he says duelist or true duelist
The shadow games are not to be trifled with
One thing I wonder, would the pharaoh even participate in the duel? Or would it be yugi vs joey. Beating Yugi is way different from beating the pharaoh.
Yugi makes it clear to Joey that "the other me" is looking forward to their duel. Plus the way Yugi is drawn in the manga (and anime) makes it clear that it's Atem.
Joey defeated Yugi with Swordman of Landstar. Its Yugi fault anyway he forgot to put Mushroom man in his deck
I believe Atem might have lost but without the gods. Making Joey win but not an overpowered Yugi. Also giving way to the possibility that Joey could have won the tournament being the real underdog if it wasn’t for shadow magic and god cards. Yeah I know Tea said Atem was undefeated but I think she meant undefeated with at full power.
Most of Joey duels he won against cheaters… he deserved that win. Now Atem could have given him the card because he proved that he is a true duelist capable of going toe to toe with the biggest and bestest of duelist too.
15:06 Why tea and Tristan there again they don't even duel
friendship!
I would like to say that there is a distinct possibly that the Pharaoh wouldn't even use the Egyptian God Cards against Joey. Which certainly would make this a closer duel then if he does use them.
I don't think Joey, in all his true duelist-ness, would accept that handicap, nor would the Pharaoh disrespect him by not using them.
Joey tells Yugi to give me back my red eyes or I'll break a piece of your puzzle off again and this time I'll throw it in the ocean.
Yugi replies chill bro, I was going to give it back to you anyway, the bronze duelist deserves the bronze ace monster anyway. Anyhow, how does this gold medal look next to my golden puzzle?
I honestly think Atem won this duel against Joey. Not only that, I do think Atem uses both Slifer The Sky Dragon, The Winged Dragon Of Ra and Obelisk The Tormentor in this duel and probably Red Eyes-Black Dragon. However I do think Joey has improved as a duelist and Atem gave Joey back his Red Eyes-Black Dragon after the duel saying he earned it after a great duel. I do think Joey does use his grave robber card to bring back Red Eyes from Atems graveyard and I do think Joey does use the 3 monsters he earned in Battle City in this duel.
Did Joey win? Maybe but highly unlikely
Fire
🔥
I’ll put this argument to rest. No Joey did not beat the Pharaoh. Joey is the type of person who would brag about beating somebody that strong but yet he never ever mentioned anything about beating the Pharaoh. Even in the final season when they were thinking where they gonna find a duelist that good enough to beat the Pharaoh. Joey wanted a go at the Pharaoh whereas everybody told him he had no chance. Why didn’t Joey bring up that he defeated the Pharaoh before if he had? Especially after Karina told Joey he was a joke and that he’s the only duelist strong enough to beat Pharaoh? It’s because Joey never defeated The Pharaoh. Joey probably put up a good fight to the point they both thought Joey earned the card back. But Joey never defeated The Pharaoh.
If Joey beat Yugi here they would have had him play against him in the Ceremonial Duel. Yugi didn't fight because of destiny, Yugi fought because he's the only one they thought could win. Same with DSOD, if Joey had this clean win against Yugi he would be getting chased by Kaiba and fighting Aigami.
i very recently read through the entire manga, so this whole thing is fresh in my mind. humor me for a moment. the answer is always in the narrative themes
Joey as a character is meant to represent us, the audience. he relies on luck, often his hand bricks, he doesn't understand the game as much as the pros like yugi and kaiba but he's constantly learning and attempting to get better, facing challenges head on. when he loses the red eyes he explicitly states he wishes to get it back only through defeating yugi.
so follow this line of thought: in battle city, joey is fighting to take his place as a proud and strong duelist just like yugi, that arc is his path to growth, and in the end, just like any of us watchers/readers, he ultimately fails due to BS circumstances even though by all means he had the win against marik... the reason joey did not get utterly destroyed and came dangerously close to defeating marik, but only god's will was the thing stopping him from clutching the win. this, again, is meant to represent the average person in the audience, who, being average, isn't likely to be a pro duelist or understand the game at that level. the theme is hard work gets you close to where you want to be, and its up to you to rise up again and face the next challenge head on so that you may grow, which is what joey's demeanor expresses after he wakes up from death (manga explicitly states that he died until coming back when yugi won against marik).
finally, when we see atem and joey get ready to duel, i believe there's a thematic reason for why the duel is off-screened. precisely because joey represents the audience, and because atem carries the title of unbeatable king of games, it doesn't make sense for his friend who just tied with kaiba in third place at the tournament to suddenly beat him, it would shatter the illusion of the king of games, and that doesn't work right for a story (even though by all means it is perfectly set up through the conclusion of his duel with marik; barring physical exhaustion taking him out, he would have won fair and square just like yugi did right after, making them equals), so it was left vague and the answer given to us in the next arc when joey clearly has his red eyes card, something that was left for astute fans to pick up on without it being explicitly stated.
yes, joey did beat the pharaoh, because he worked hard and did not let his BS loss get him down, he still saw himself as worthy of being yugi's equal, and got back his red eyes fair and square. and it makes sense, Atem's first loss is off screen, next his win is through the help of all his friends finding his lost name, THEN he finally loses to yugi and passes on, in a way it's a smoother transition than having his first loss be on-screen and taking some spark from the duel finale with yugi. this is all huge part of why i absolutely love the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga
a group of my friends did an interview with Takahashi-sensei years ago (but konami ultimately did not allow them to publish it anywhere), in it we asked him the question about joey and atem's duel since we picked up on that detail and my comment was roughly his response. he also said that Tea Gardener is canonically the best duelist because she has a 1win/0loss ratio. lmao
The way I see it, Joey already proven that he can win without red eyes. Is it beneficial? definitely. Is it mandatory? No. Yoey has proven to he a true duelist without it and has earned it.
to be fair joey saying that his duel with the pharoh is his battle city well to be honest if joey didnt pass out in the Marik duel then it would have been a repeat of the finals from duelist kingdom to show just how far joey has come Marik wanted to toy with joey thinking him inferiour and it nearly cost him if it wasnt for the shadow game fatiguing joey it would have been another duel between frinds once again and it would have shown just how much joey improved realisticlly joey thought he had to beat the pharoh to be worthy of red eyes but we all know the pharoh he is a guy who can show you the truth that you mearly dont see so joey would have accepted red eyes even if he did lose that duel (which really with all the god cards and his deck in general the pharoh was litterally unbeatable he was only beaten or anything similar due to some bs) specificlly because the pharoh acknowledged him he was never 1 for the antie rule for one he only did it when it was absolutly neccessary and he knew red eyes truely belonged with joey just like blue eyes with kaiba Dark Magician and the gods with him he just has that sort of effect where he just knows and also joey does in fact look up to the pharoh and Yugi his best friends and realisticlly his teacher in so many ways we might not even know to get the pharoh to say to him after he performed extremely well and would have been 1 of the best people he has ever known both in heart and soul in all ways that is what joey was after and something tells me he did lose the duel but it was so close to the point it was down to 1 card and because joey pushed the pharoh to that point he felt he truely earned his Red Eyes and the Pharoh was more then happy to give it back to him 1 because he never saw it as his card to begin with joey lost it due to cheating which we all know he frowned apon massive joey was honorable, brave yet bold and had so much heart in every single move he made that even he himself was sweating to some degree not to the same degree as Marik but he was sweating so he felt joey was more then Worthy of such a Card which was his soul Card
1: even if joy wanted to win red eyes back it wouldnt be out of character for him to accept it in a loss if yugi told him he earned it. (he would preffer to win it but wouldnt decline it)
2: its imposible to claim joey won when the purpose of the ceremonial duel is so that the pharoh cant go in the afterlife undeafeated.
3: from a power standpoint even if we remove ra from the deck cause of pharoh not knowing the chant theres still slifer and obelisk which is way to much for joy to handle especially considering that the only people worthy to fight god cards are the other yugioh protagonists (yugi and judai) and kaiba. saying joey won against 2 gods would imply he is on MC or deutragonist level which just isnt true.
I have genuinely believed that the reason that Joey wasn't considered for the ceremonial duel was because it was a foregone conclusion from everyone that there was no single duelist more capable to defeat Atem than Yugi, a boy who knew him backwards and forwards. Not to mention the emotional significance of the duel for both Atem and Yugi. There was no reason that Joey would take that moment away from Yugi the same way that Atem wouldn't deny Joey his right to earn Red-eyes properly with a duel.
But I also believe that Joey winning against Atem at Battle City would be full of moments where he could have done something to have a more decisive win but he hesitated for "insert reason here" and Joey called him on it after taking advantage of the misplay. That's often what happens when Joey goes against a duelist he respects. He refuses pity, hesitation, or restraint. You come at him without restraint or he will punish you for it. It only takes a few misplays to ruin a match. If Joey is as good as it is implied he is, even one misplay is all it would take to squeak out a proper win.
Edit: I also don't believe that Atem would use the god cards against Joey. I truly don't.
It's interesting that you say Atem wouldn't use the god cards, because you also say Joey wouldn't accept pity or restraint. I agree with your characterization of Joey, which is precisely why I think it's out of the question that Atem wouldn't at least use Slifer and Obelisk. Ra's at least understandable, since in the manga, he didn't use it in the ceremonial duel either.
@@customcardguy
Im going to put the ceremonial duel aside to discuss it after I bring up this point.
Do we see Atem use the God cards against anyone who didn’t have a god card themselves? Aside from Jaiden, do we see it even one time? I haven’t. Outside of the ceremonial duel, we don’t see him use them even once against non-millennium item/god card users.
This implies to me that he side decks them for most of Battle City and only pulls them out for shadow games and the like. Atem is a huge fan of fair play.
Bringing back the ceremonial duel, Atem was told that for it to work he had to go 100 percent of everything he had and be defeated while doing so. Since the God cards were in his side deck, swapping them in was entirely necessary to meet those conditions.
But one does not have to bring the force of a god down in order to have someone feel like they are a true duelist and given that the god cards are not Atem or Yugi’s soul cards, they would be even more unnecessary for a meaningful duel between the two. I imagine Atem would have had his deck set up closer to how he fought Arkana, very Dark Magician focused to really test Joey soul to soul. I would be surprised if Yugi ended up using exchange to try and give Joey the card that way halfway through the duel.
Those kinds of moments that are had in a more intimate duel than one the Gods could ever visit upon them as duelists.
The God cards were not necessary for Atem to be a True Duelist, so why would facing them make any difference in the eyes of Joey when both parties know that Atem doesn’t give them the same reverence as his magician.
It’s like when I play DD Crow or Effect Veiler. Good options. Better plays, but I’m happiest when I run my archetypes pure.
And if you have further questions to discuss this, I’m more than happy to continue to elaborate. I am a storyteller by passioncraft and I’m looking at this through that lens and the available information on the characters and context.
@@blackchibisan8116 To be fair, after Battle City, we don't see Atem duel for the rest of the manga until the ceremonial duel. The only other duel where he has a god card and doesn't use it is vs Lumis and Umbra.
In the anime, the god cards are stolen in Waking the Dragons, so the only duel he has where he theoretically could've used them is vs Leon.
All that aside, I don't think the question is so much would Atem would want to use the god cards or not. I think the question is would Joey accept Atem not using them. And that, in my mind, is unequivocally no.
@@customcardguy
And to me, he would. If only because as powerful as they are, they aren’t the cards that Joey knows matters most to Atem.
So I counter your question with do you think Joey would ask?
But I’ll take it back to my other point as well. The god cards require resource investment and while Atem has pulled some bullcrap, Joey knows that too. It only takes a single misplay to ruin your chances at successfully summoning them.
So let me give you a hypothetical.
Yugi has two archetypes he uses to summon the god cards, the face knights and the magnet warriors. I didn’t see him running any dupes of anything in Battle City. With Joey’s level of disruption that he runs, do you see him being able to interfere with their engines? With his traps that can steal opponents monsters and his various other field removal options(the gods may not bow to time Wizard but magnets and man age like anyone else) Joey can control how many tributes Atem has access to. If Atem tries to discard and use monster reborn, Joey can do that even more often to summon the gods for himself thanks to cards like Graverobber letting him use Atem’s monster reborn to get the gods on his side or just taking advantage of Yugi having them there to Reborn them to his side. And due to the effect we see of Osiris during the Marik Duel, if Joey brought it out with Grave robber it would protect him from Obelisk’s effects even if Yugi got it out.
My take on this is that Joey probably would've had to win. Red Eyes was the first card that Joey ever earned. I don't believe he'd just accept it without a win.
Great video and I agree with the winner 🥇. I struggle to see Joey having the better deck tho . They both have a Mitch match or cards but at least yugi isn’t using battle warrior 😂
Thanks for watching! And hey, Battle Warrior won a duel for Joey before!