From my reading, the first Dune book tries to imply there's not. The Bene Geserite and other abilities are mundane, the effects of strict discipline, raw intelligence, training, or mind altering drugs. But as the story progresses, the abilities seem more and more unbelievable to the point that it's hard to just think these are not supernatural abilities.
@@KimDeniseHeidebrecht All that you have said is that humans have slightly different biological realities in the Dune universe than in ours. Not that it is magic. As far as The Voice goes... a crying baby will stimulate a mother to lactate. Cats can mimic the pitch of the crying in order to manipulate their female human. So there is in fact a biological basis for this ability. And given 10k years to play with manipulating it, I bet humans could achieve it. And the Bene Gesserit breeding program is specifically maintained within royal houses using highly trained concubines selected from within that stock. And the first book DOES point out that it is a flawed system as it is only as good as the obedience of said concubines. It is clear in the books that they KNEW Jessica would be disobedient but that she held the key genetic fragments that they needed to control. It is also made clear that they COULD have just used direct genetic manipulation like the Tleilax but chose the more difficult way both because of their aversion to technology and because they hoped that wild mutations would enhance the characteristics they were breeding for. As far as the need for controlled environments... Id say humans did pretty good breeding livestock and crops for the last 10k years without anything remotely resembling a controlled environment.
The spice itself is just an analog for alchemy's philosopher's stone and all superhuman abilities like prescience ultimately spring from it. Spice prolongs life to near immortality, heightens the senses and induces spiritual enlightenment/growth, just like the philosopher's stone.
Psychic power are natural to humans. Every prophet is the testimony of that. Even the Buddha who discourage his disciples on abusing those powers explain that it is a normal thing for anyone who train their minds through meditation. We just lost the proper training to weld those abilities.
@@KimDeniseHeidebrecht "the only real genetic memories that exist in our world are instinct and the genetic characteristics of a life form." This is false. Scientists have been studying for a long time real genetic memory. Mice are artificially inseminated with the sperm of mice from three groups: those who were traumatized via electric shock when citrus scent was introduced, and those who were fed when the scent was introduced, and those who were the control. In all three groups the offspring of the mice who never had any interaction with their fathers reacted accordingly when introduced to the citrus scent the first time. The shock progeny froze in fear, the fed progeny salivated, and the control reacted normally. There is 100% a genetic memory we just don't know how it works. Inter-generational trauma and success has very real effects even when the parents and offspring never met.
Frank Herbet himself expresses it perfectly in Heretics: "This is the awe-inspiring universe of magic: There are no atoms, only waves and motions all around. Here, you discard all belief in barriers to understanding. You put aside understanding itself. This universe cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be detected in any way by fixed perceptions. It is the ultimate void where no preordained screens occur upon which forms may be projected. You have only one awareness here-the screen of the magi: Imagination! Here, you learn what it is to be human. You are a creator of order, of beautiful shapes and systems, an organizer of chaos." And this is why Dune so wunderfully weaves together fantasy and science fiction. Herberts magic arises when an observer encounters the possbility space that is the physical universe.
This just sounds like those esoteric middle-aged moms that are on some spiritual trip. "Everything is just energy waves. Can you feel them too? You just have to open up."
A note on the voices of the sisterhood, in the real world right NOW movie studios realized they can use sounds that the human ear can pick up but the human mind can't perceive to influence how people are feeling. There is a specific tone that we can't hear but for some reason raises a human's anxiety levels, and that sound is often used in some scenes in scary movies. In my opinion, the idea that a human could train themselves to make a sound they can hear but not perceive is actually very much in line with Dune's setting and the idea of conflicting facts or realities having to be accepted in order to grasp higher levels of personal power.
I haven't seen any comparisons to hypnotism, which I've heard some people can fall under (lol). Jessica mentions several times finding her victims "register" from listening to them speak maybe that's her noticing what sounds would stop someone in their tracks or "hynotise" them, etc. I certainly could believe any humans voice can strike fear or calm someone and given many years of training could provide greater ability.
Whether it's magic does depend on semantics, but from a writing standpoint Dune uses several "magic" systems, best explained by Brandon Sanderson in his talks about the laws of creating magic systems. Personally, I would say that while things like the mentats and the various Tleilaxu shenanigans are within possibility if we factor in an assumption of pre-series bio-engineering (bit of transhumanism, that is), the prescience abilities and other things the BG and their offshoots can do ease into magic (at least by my definition). It's a bit like the debate of whether psychic powers in sci-fi are considered "magic." Again, depends on your definition, but from a perspective of writing and world building, if you're designing the system with its strengths, weaknesses, and limitations, then it's effectively magic. I would further speculate that things like no-rooms and no-ships are properly labeled as "magitech," but, again, that's just me. Personally, I'm a fan of "sufficiently analyzed magic" (to quote Foglio). Because human minds are built to recognize patterns, and exploit them. But I'm also the type of person that loves trying to figure out how stage magicians do their tricks, and admires the skill that goes into creating the wonder.
I think that would all be true if Herbert hadn't gone out of his way to make sure we know that the everything the Bene Geserit do can be taught and just require proper training. The Fremen are taught the weirding way and become a virtually unstoppable force because of it. Because it like the rest of the Bene Geserit "powers" are just teachable, learned skills. Perhaps only some possess prescience, but this is shown to be entirely up to bloodlines and not an external magical or supernatural influence.
@@patreekotime4578 Magic doesn't have to be external, also stuff like seeing the past and psychic position is magic and there are plenty of powers that even the people in Dune show no scientific understanding of, most stuff with spice is like this. Why does spice do all the things it does, who knows its just magic. Dune shows a good mix of the arcane and the scientific with a nice bit of overlap where they use science to boost the arcane and arcane to boost the science.
@@patreekotime4578 but in many fantasy settings, magic is taught. Some even go as far as having it available to any who would study hard enough. But even in settings where only a few have the ‘power’, it mostly is something that must be studied and honed. It might just be semantics, but the reason why ppl think of the Bene Gesserit as witches is because their powers are not understood and how they do so is hidden. Like any good magician would do. Like Arthur C. Clark said, any technology, if advanced enough, seems like magic. So while FH said there is no magic in the Dune Universe, to those living in it, that is what they see.
@@StixFerryMan In most fantasy, what is *taught* is how to control the magical powers, but in most fantasy those powers are either genetic or gained in some way, and almost always involves the manipulation of external energy. What I mean is that most of the things the Bene Gesserit do like the Voice and the Weirding appear like magic or psychic abilities but are not, they are just skills that anyone can learn. And their prescience abilities are passive or perceptive, and apparently nearly everyone in the Dune universe possess them at least a little. (If EVERYONE has a magic power is it still magic?) They arn't excerting control over some external force or pulling those visions from a magic ball, they just "see" them.
@@falconJB There are plenty of aspects of human biology that we dont really understand. But it is apparent that everyone or almost everyone in the Dune universe has some prescience abilities. Herbert seems to believe it is just be a natural part of human psychology. Is it still magic if everyone has it in small amounts? Is it magic that some birds can mimic other sounds perfectly? To a primative people that would certainly seem like magic. But its just a natural part of those birds biology.
There is certainly esoteric philosophy in Dune and some influence from occult magick - for example, Frank Herbert constructed his own ‘Dune Tarot’ into the fabric of the story. He speaks about this in one of his interviews on UA-cam.
There is no indication that the Dune Tarot is any more accurate than Earth Tarot. One of the underlying premises of the Dune Universe is that prescience is a biological or physchological "wild talent" that is inherent in humans, with the spice amplifying it's effect. The Dune Tarot cards themselves are just bits of cardboard. But the user is able to focus their own natural gifts onto them. The Dune Tarot muddies Paul and Alia's visions because of it's sheer popularity... millions of people all attempting to use their own crude abilities creates a kind of white noise or static in the prescience visions. No magic required. It's also not clear if these cards are viewed as "occult" at all in the Dune Universe... the Bene Geserit are descibed as "witches" but the Tarot do not appear to be connected to them by people in general. (Even though they very likely introduced them purposefully to obstruct Paul). Paul's (and Leto II's) religions appear to be a hodgepodge of belief systems that combine as many different historical religions as possible. In that kind of schema, it seems like it would be hard to title anything as "occult" the way we do in comparison to a dominant Judeo-Christian world view.
@@patreekotime4578 Earth Tarot? Sounds like Earth Food... too generic. Let me say that the Tarot does in fact work. But before you label me as some nutjob let me also say that it has nothing to do with magic, or the occult. Yes, that does seem like a strange statement. I have a reason why I started studying the Tarot. I am a magician, and while card tricks can shock and amaze people, they still know that it is a trick. But do the same thing with a deck of Tarot cards and they start believing it might just be real. (With some theatrics.) But back to my statement that the Tarot does indeed work, most people just react and reject it. But have they actually looked into it? Researched it? Tested it? Have you? The key point to understanding the Tarot and how it actually works is when I read an expert saying you do not use the cards to predict the future, but to guide you in your choices. (I am paraphrasing from something I read a years ago, and can’t fully remember, but this is essentially it.) There were 2 reasons for this, one was legal, the other was to make sure people weren’t just blindly following the cards but thinking for themselves. Suddenly it made sense. Rather than being a magical thing, it was a psychological tool that dealt with a focused kind of brainstorming. Our brains are great at “filling in the blanks”, so we end up thinking and opening our minds to thoughts and ideas we may not have had, or go in directions we may never have thought of.
@@GholaTleilaxuI believe prescience is primarily genetic and predictive reasoning like a mentat on steroids. Some people are just able to use spice melange to see the future, but only of those they’re genetically similar enough to see. Eventually with Sionas descendants, the DNA must be scrambled in such a way that a prescient can no longer make the logical assumptions necessary to see the future.
Would have been an excellent opportunity for a discussion of Asimov's quotation, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Just, in the Dune books, the technology is genetics and the human mind.
For internally consistent fantasy stories where the characters treat magic scientifically, check out Harry Turtledove. He even has one series where theoretical sorcerers work to unify the “laws” of similarity and of contagion, and they feel just like theoretical physicists working to unify general relativity and the Standard Model.
I'm not typically one for nit picking, but quantum physics deals on the scale of the *subatomic* not *microscopic* , the particles in question are too small to reflect light, so it impossible to spot with a *microscope* . *Sigh*, ok I got that out of my system...
@@falconJB Not to nitpick your nitpicking of the nitpicking, but when making references to quantum scales - this takes the discussion to a place of well-defined & unambiguous scientific, so colloquial vernacular is not an appropriate interpretation for that context.
@@falconJB and yet scales and concepts when combined are typically expected to be precise. Nobody uses "quantum" in a non-scientific vernacular. Doesn't happen, it has no colloquial connotations.
I find Dune more of a science fantasy rather than science fiction. The story took place so far in the future and there’s barely any focus on technology. A lot of the things are mystical. In that regard, Dune is in the same category as Star Wars with force powers and etc.
I'm of a similar opinion to you. There are certain differences in mechanics, but it's ultimately relative. Clark's Third Law comes to mind. Thanks for the indepth video.
Great vid. On a related note, I'm on my second reading of Dune ... I tend to regard the Fremen as less superstitious than I did on my first read ... like they are onto something and everyone else is confused. Paul IS the Lisan al-Gaib. The Missionara Protectiva is kind of a foil ... with or without it, Paul is some kind of Chosen One. Whether that is natural or supernatural ... again probably a matter of semantics.
As far as a sci-fi fictional world's (or even just a modern one, similar to our own) take on magic, I've always liked the way that the cartoon "Gargoyles" took. One line that still stands out in my mind is a character encouraging the fight against a magical force whereas most of the protagonist had little to no connection to make other than what was naturally available to them, saying something like "Energy is energy, whether magical or man-made." I just always thought "ok, that makes sense." Plus, I think it avoids the downfall of a lot of modern takes on magic, that being that there aren't a lot of clear rules and modernity and science can't seem to hold up against anything magical very well.
I think of magic and science are two languages used to describe a cosmos in which there are strange areas where the two overlap. Rod Serling said it best “It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.”
Well...this must mean something...i had not even thought of man o war in a few years and listened to a few track last night. Maybe the warriors of metal are real. Lol
I believe there was a shift from supernatural to natural in Star Wars Ep. IV-VI and I-III. What was measured with a scientific doohickey as "mitichlorians" was originally simply called "The Force."
This was superbly done. You covered a great deal in a short time. I'd love to see you expand on this and present it in a formal paper or even at a convention. I'd back you with a donation for this specific goal if you decide to go this way with it.
The only possible standard we can use to measure science vs. magic is by comparing to the real world, but we don't know everything about science in the real world yet. Therefore anything we can't explain using our real life knowledge is therefore magic. The distinction between magic and fictional science really comes down to whether the author wants to use technobabble to attempt to make it make sense or not, which is always going to be a fruitless endeavor. One the reasons I struggle to find enjoyment in soft sci-fi that pretends to be hard sci-fi (like Dune) is that it takes itself too seriously instead of just admitting that its making stuff up wholecloth. Unless you can actually explain to me how the Voice would work in a logical sense, I'm putting it on the same shelf as psykers shooting lightning bolts out of their mind in Warhammer 40k. Which is awesome, I love 40k and I don't think psychic powers need to be perfectly explained, but its just so much more fun when the media is leaning into it instead of trying to justify why what its talking about isn't fantastical. And no, saying "its just a more overt version of humans manipulating each other though speech every day" doesn't cut it. Herbert could have put an explanation in there like "The Bene Geserit were gene scientists and they put a gene into most of humankind thousands of years ago that makes them susceptible to mind control through specific voice tones" but he didn't do that. He left it mysterious on purpose, so he wants mystery, but he wants to sit back and say that the mystery doesn't qualify it as magic. I think he really just wanted to write a fantasy epic in space but wanted to set himself apart somehow.
I thought that Dune's prescience was just pattern recognition cranked up to 11, just as the Bene Gesserit Voice is just psychological manipulation cranked up to 11.
That's pretty much how I see it. I just see that they are all very well trained and have used certain drugs to change their neurological system so that they cranked up natural abilities to such a level that they seem magical.
This is almost certainly correct, especially since Duncan with his mentat abilities in Children of Dune for a split second is able to calculate the future similar to Paul he notes.
@@squaeman_2644 in my mind I see them as a human species From Another Dimension a lot like ours except they hold on to some type of biological memory. Something in their DNA. I mean, there are animals that genetic memories. Humans just haven't been able to be proven to have something like that. But in this universe, humans can do it. I still see it as science because there's a certain knowledge to how it works as opposed to it being mythical like magic. But I feel the same way about the questions. I just prefer seeing it more like science as opposed to Magic.
Hey Quinn, I really enjoy your channel and the fact that you are actually being meticulous and analytical about the sci-fi classics you're reviewing. It's often the case, at least from my experience, that many reviewers on youtube are trying to provide a fan-boy service in relation to such series, without actually trying to discuss the ideas behind them. This here is a very interesting subject. While it might be a matter of semantics, as some might argue, that doesn't bring the connotation that you cant have a precise argument based on precise definitions. While I was doing my MA in philosophy there were several occasions in which I was wondering about magic and the metaphysical assumptions behind it. You discuss the problem from more of an epistemic perspective(how magic is known), but it is possible to discuss it in terms of its metaphysics as well(what form of existence would be necessary for magic). So let me try to present the problem from the second perspective. Often, historically, when philosophers talk about existence, they rely on two basic concepts: substance and ontology. Substance, in the philosophical sense of the word, you might think of simply as the most basic thing existing in the world, while ontology is the list of those basic existing things. Different models of the world, be it the actual or imagined one, can be based on very different ontologies. For example, I might think that matter is the most basic element of reality and thus, every object, quality, and interaction can be reduced to it or deduced from it. For such a world, its ontology, or its list of basic existing things, would describe only matter. Descartes, for example, would say that there are two substances: matter and consciousness, the idea being that, as substances, they are irreducible to each other. Now we might ask this question: what type of ontology would be necessary for a world, which can be described scientifically? There is no easy or short answer here, but, for the sake of this not turning into a full-blown annoying lecture, let's propose three. First, the ontology of the world would need to include one single substance. Second, everything in this world would need to be under causal closure. In other words, every object, quality, and relation produced by this substance has to be locked in a cause and effect relationship. Third, there are principles(or laws) governing these causal relationships, which are fully reducible to, or as, qualities of the basic substance. Now, why can't we fit magic within that system? Well, because magic breaks relations of cause and effect. In order for it to be described, it would be required for us to assume a second substance in our ontology(consciousness or transcendent forms/names of things), which is irreducible to the first and is not causally related to it. Now, let's observe the world of Dune. If there is something seemingly supernatural about it, it is connected with consciousness and its abilities. For us to accept these abilities as magical, we would need to accept that they and their effects are causally isolated from the causality of the physical world. They clearly are not, for The Spice which causes them is physical, part of physical(and biological) processes. As such, these abilities are part of a single web of causal relationships, stemming from one basic ontological substance: matter. Therefore, they can't be understood as magical, from a metaphysical perspective.
I like how you present the Dune mythos. Your presentations are a great primer for the books for those who are curious enough to read 'em. I've read the series once and it was quite the romance.. Chapterhouse left me unresolved....it was all a dream? I loved the character of Supreme Bashar Miles Teg yet that story remains unresolved without the original author. I understand that dune has continued to expand without the original author for the past thirty-plus years with his son Brian and several writers filling in the history. Admirable, yet....something I ignore as it doesn't meet the strange, bleak and potentially possible world Frank created. My question to you is; Where and when does your best DUNE story end? God Emperor? Heretics? Children? Sisterhood? Your love of the the initial story is fantastic, even if I feel you bias the story towards the first three books...well..ok...four books. I hope you discuss the two books past GEOD...im sure it's already on your radar. Keep up the love, mate!
Nothing admirable about Brian's continuation of the books. It's either overly pretentious that he thought that he could do it in a way that stays faithful to his father's work or just greedy to cash in on his father's success.
@@mrTannu666 I can't speak for the work of Brian as I have not read it. I just assumed anything by him or any other author would be a sad derivative of the original work of Frank.
I'm of the mind that it has more to do with how much you want to actually consider the universe the story is being told in. The use of swords, knives, pellet guns and nobility gives it a medieval feel where magic would be a norm. Then the spaceships and multi-planet background of the story gives it a science fiction feel. Giant worms can fit in either scenario. One of the reasons Dune is great literature is that allows the user to go either way and still enjoy the overall story.
Everything's relative...Abolishing thinking machines and related technology does not have to be a step backward in time; it can be distinctly "modern" as far as the Dune universe is concerned because it leads humanity forward on the Golden Path (contrary to what some might believe, I think that Leto II came not to initiate the Golden Path, but to put humanity back on track with regard to it). From the point of view of the Dune universe, thinking machines are "old-fashioned" because by now human-based approaches (Mentats, Navigators) have been found that replace them.
I think Frank Herbert did not intend for the superhuman abilities such as those of the Bene Gesserit, the Kwisatz Haderach or the Honored Matres to be viewed as magic, but I do believe that he must have been aware of the fact that there would be readers of his work who would do just that. To me, it also boils down to what genre of fiction one considers Dune to be: science fiction, fantasy or something in between. Fantasy deals mostly in the inexplicable or impossible, while also mostly maintaining an in-story consistency. Magic can be a centerpiece in fantasy. Science fiction deals mostly in what is feasible, if not with our current understanding of the laws of nature. In sofar as there is magic in science fiction, it has to be explained in-story. However, the genres are just two sides of the same coin, namely fiction, and not all works of literature generally considered to be fantasy or science fiction fall firmly in either category. Say for example you have a system of metahuman powers. If we are writing a story that is (mostly) science fiction, we would have to explain it thoroughly in-story. We could tell our readers that those with metahuman powers have the ability to affect the universe on a quantum level by affecting the probability or by influencing the outcome of such things as quantum entanglement. Perhaps this is achieved by nanites or other artificial enhancements in one's body and mind, perhaps not. The fact that it is explained to a certain amount, enough for the reader to get a grasp of how a person with such powers draws on them, and that there is a (somewhat) scientific explanation for them would classify a work of fiction as science fiction. If instead, we were writing a story that is (mostly) fantasy we would approach the same system differently. We would write that the character just imposes his or her will on the things around him or her, both inanimate and animate. With a single word or a wave of his or her hand entire armies or edifices are torn down. Enemies are choked to death with just a single gesture, or would be struck by lightning from his or her hand. Or the magic user would utter an incantation and life would spring up where there was none previously. There may be a an explanation of the origins of metahuman powers to a certain extent, or the cost of using them. However, in the end it would be a plot device most certainly way beyond our curent understanding of the in-story universe as a reader. To me, Dune fits in the category of fiction that sits mostly on the side of science fiction, but with enough things left to the imagination of the reader that it is not hard or pure science fiction. Which to me is the essence of all great literature: it defies true and firm categorization. And it shows: after having read the first book of Dune over 25 times (not kidding here), I still manage to find new layers to explore.
It's funny, Your paraphrashing Fritz Leiber in the many lectures he gave on writing Fantasy. "It can be impossible. but it must be consistent." ( I'm parahasing him. LOL)
Once magic is understood, it becomes science. That is very true, magic might simply be science we don't understand yet. But my question for you is: Once you do understand it, what name will you give it? Why can't magic be the name of the science that allows one to break the laws of physics and the Universe. We have been calling it that for thousands of years why can't we just keep calling it magic and still be scientific about it? Great video as always.
Excellent thoughts as always, “ Magic is only something that’s science has not resolved yet.” The practitioners of the disciplines in Dune understand where there “magic” comes from. The ordinary humans do not. For example, the sisterhood are still called witches.
It's semantics in the sense that it is possible to make a decent argument for both the "yes" and the "no" side if we so choose. Personally, however, I find it takes much more effort and handwaving to convincingly argue for "no magic", than it does to admit the notion of a little bit of magic in the Dune universe. So I take the lazy way out, and say that "yes, sort of a little bit, but nothing that you have to worry about."
Paul's prescience is the result of spice saturation couple to his mentat training. The limited prescience of the navigators is prescisely limited because they are no mentats. That is why the Bene Geserit feared Duncan be a Kwisatz Haderach in Heretics of Dune... By awaking him to his past, they knew he had mentat capabilities buried in there
The Bene Geserit were breeding makind for the last 90 generations in an attempt to create a man who could explore this thing that they were terrified of. Paul wasn't a full mentat, he just had some very basic training. Remember his father asked him if he wanted to be a mentat after he showed some proficiency in that pathway. Normally, mentats are trained from infancy, Paul was 15, and he was no true mentat. Paul was the right person (Atradies heir), had the right genes (Bene Geserit breeding program), had some mentat training (which probably helped), and was in the right place (spice-saturated) at the right time (Harkonan/Emperor treachery). The perfect storm. His son Leto also had prescience to an even stronger degree, but wasn't a mentat ;)
Good discussion. You get a thumps up, for the Aquinas quote alone 👍. My only caveat is that you should do more to define magic, because magic = unscientific is not necessarily a universally accepted definition.
That's only relative to the viewer. The people of the Dune universe are closer to being on the same level as each other than they are to us so it's doubtful that anything going on in dune is sufficiently advanced to be considered magic.
@@DrewLSsix There were (are) still plenty of backwards or religious cultures in the Dune universe. Thus the nomenclature of referring to Bene Gesserit as "witches".
@@DrewLSsix That would depend on the class of person wouldn't it? To Thufiir Hawat, Lady Jessica's abilities were magic, and he wasn't stupid or superstitious, merely ignorant of what Bene Gesserit training entailed. (Think of Thufir & Jessica's "spy" confrontation.)
One of your best videos. For an example of "magic" in a Fantasy setting that is perhaps more science than magic, see the books set in the Cosmere by Brandon Sanderson. Especially the Stormlight Archive. Ironically, the difference between how Sanderson describes surges and bindings in his Fantasy series and the way Herbert talks about prescience and Voice in Dune is that the former follow almost mathematical set of rules and the latter is more philosophy than science.
Love your stuff Sir, but my inner teacher can't help but point out that Google isn't technically a source, it's a search engine. There is no "official google definition" of anything, only what the algorithm ranks as the most relevant webpage. That being said, fascinating as always to hear your thoughts on the Dune Universe!
Dune occupies an interesting in-between space with human abilities, how they grow, and how they are perceived. The banning of anything resembling a "thinking machine" forced humanity to develop their abilities to the utmost. I think that at the peak of that, by itself, without the spice, sappho juice and the like, that to us they would appear as the most disciplined and skilled of all human beings. When you introduce the various enhancing substances of the Dune universe though, it does push human ability to what would seem to be almost magical. There's a lot of examination of ecology and politics, but sometimes I wish there was a bit more of a look at the humanistic side of things, an finer look at how far humans could go without any sort of enhancements at all, via technology or substances. I wonder how far we could go, ability wise, if we dedicated ourselves more to our physical and mental development over thousands of years with minimal cybernetics and substance enhancment, if we ever came across somethng that worked as reliably as the spice.
Hi Quinn, physicist here. You are incorrect in your statement at 6:00. The macroscopic physics we see at our scales are a consequence of averaging out all of the particle interactions and the quantum scale. I fear you may have confused it with the irreconcilability of General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory.
Another very enjoyable video there. I have to thank you, because of your videos, I finally resolved to actually read Dune. Onto Dune Messiah now, and I am loving it. Thanks Quinn!
It's Science Fiction, not Fantasy. One thing is that people think that magic exists, but they are wrong within their universe. That's why I didn't like the concept of witches with telekinetic and other powers in the prequels. It's not like a gifted Bene Gesserit analyzing people's reaction and identify it as a lie. BTW: It's the same thing about the use of higher technology. In Frank Herbert's books, I could believe in a universe without any computers, but because of Brian's more explicit style of writing and describing machines, I was always thinking: How could you even do that without at least a Windows 20?
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” - Author C Clarke. Can be applied here. In one sense, 'technology' is the evolved techniques of the group that developed them (ie Bene Gesserite) relative to others; but in another sense, the whole setting of the Dune universe that takes place thousands of years in the future.
I suggest reading “magic realism” literature. I remember I read many years ago “The Aleph” by Jorge Luis Borges. The explanation of what the aleph is helped me to understand what prescience is and why is so difficult to explain and handle.
Some things are really hard to explain as scientifically possible like having the memories of ancestors or slowing down time and teleporting in hand to hand combat.
I feel like much of the New Wave and New Weird movements in SFF blur such boundaries often. For example, in China Miéville’s Bas-Lag novels, something akin to magic exists called thaumaturgy, which is a form of energy that comes in quanta-like units called thaumaturgons which is channeled through an individual’s body for them to use. Or in Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials and The Book of Dust, the subatomic particle Dust which bestows consciousness and is also dark matter is matter by behaviour but spirit by essence. Dust is used to impart various magical abilities throughout the multiverse of the books, but is under lain by external forces beyond human understanding.
To me Dune is an experiment on how far you can stretch scifi and still not be fantasy. And how can you know for sure how far you can go, if you do not sometimes get too close to the edge or even over it. To me, the intent is to keep within in scifi without magic, but invent ways to stretch it as far as it can go.
Magic in Dune? Frank Herbert: It is something difficult to explain when you don't have the direct perspective of a near prescient awareness of the universe on a macroscopic level. As well as the subtle subconscious manipulations that can be attained with the right understanding of human behavior. Brian Herbert: GUESS WHAT?! But before the original books, there were telekinetic sorceresses. And the original guild navigator could teleport anywhere at will. Trust me, I read my dad's notes. David Lynch: Paul can crack the ground with a yell, and summon rain at will (never mind this would kill the sandworms he needs to enact his political takeover).
i like to think prescience is an experience the brain produces when it processes the hyperanalysis characters in dune are able to achieve through various training. an uchiha in the dune universe would have prescience.
Another Great video!!! I truly LOVE your work!!! But, because of my LOVE for your work, I must yet again ask the question......Ultimate Guide to Dune: Chapterhouse........I swear you said it would be out 12/19/2020......please......an update at least??
I would say the much more supernatural force in Dune is the idea of genetic memory and reliving the lives of their past. While prescience, physical manipulation and such can be grounded in natural order, there is no such link for genetic memory.
With the arguments about how "It is all a natural function", then worlds like Forgotten Realms also have no magic, as it is all natural functions and manipulation of a real thing. Dune has 'magic', or nothing does.
then all we have is magic too. science doesnt exist. why does our natural forces get to be named science and other universes doesnt? not saying what you said is wrong, but the consequence is what i said.
This is definitely an interesting discussion. I mean, how many series that include magic have whole institutions dedicated to the "study of magic." From Hogwarts in Harry Potter, to the Mages Guild, the College of Winterhold and the Psyjic order in Elder Scrolls, the Scholia Arcana and the entire academies of gnomes in Amalur. I've seen webcomics where the spells are even expressed in writing as complex formula and the classes run like physics departments, all treated with the rigour of science yet always considered of something other than the material world. It could be a vague distinction that "magical" energied are separated usually from "material/real/physical" energy in the real world maybe, or something. Depends almost entirely in the author and the fiction and the semantics. I had a thought for my own writing to potentially tackle the difference. A music file plays sound but there is metadata on the track. Author, year, album, track listing etc. None of that is encoded in the actual song. Perhaps in some settings, "physical" is the music of the thing, while magic is the code that sorts it by its underlying nature. Or maybe music is magical, beyond hard facts of who, when, and where and is itself entirely subjective. Listen I have no idea I'm just word-vomiting writing brainstorms here.
I once heard an interesting definition of magic that rather corroborates your preternatural semantics: magic is the ability to make the improbable [circumstance] a reality. And in many ways, that is the understanding what Paul says about prescience, but entwined with an understanding that you can apply energy to change the natural equilibrium so that from the new state emerges the improbable. Electrolysis, for example, applies electrical energy in water so that the improbable free hydrogen and hydroxy ions are perceptible. And its that possible application of willpower and effort that is missing from Pauls explanation to Stilgar. It might have been implied that their current efforts are indeed the most practical application of energy.
You pulled me back right at the end, bravo. I was getting lost in the discussion of the semantics of the differences of the natural laws. I agree I don't believe Herbert wanted to push any kind of magical agenda. He would certain want us to understand that there are things outside most persons' understanding. (But could we not get there cognitively or make a machine to translate for us given enough time? He doesn't answer this, as his civilization doesn't get past the 100k+ year mark, though he does show that humanity will usually find a way to adapt to survive.) He didn't want that as part of his teachings. It was about how despite the extremes to which we could go in different directions ie biology(Tleilax), technology(Ix), warfare(the Fremen or Sardukar or Fish Speakers), etc. that we would still be held to the consequences of our actions. We'll never find that one thing that puts us outside of ourselves to truly make us gods. At least not while we're bound to this dimension. One quote that I have thought upon often of his “There is no escape-we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” Sorry for the ramble. Edit: I also want to point out how much I appreciate your thoughtful and often unique analysis of the material. I may not agree with everything you mention, but I certain give it serious consideration. As a Dune fan for the past 20 years, your channel has really reminded me of how much I appreciated Frank's novels(though I haven't read them all outside the Dune series). Keep up the excellent work, Quinn!
One way of thinking about the distinction between magic and science, even when magic is portrayed as following precise and knowable laws, is that magic involves *semantic relations being causal* . In other words, X has causal power to bring about or have an effect on Y because X is *about* Y. An example would be harming someone's shoulder by sticking a pin into the shoulder of a voodoo doll representing the person; it's the meaning-relation or reference-relation between the voodoo doll and the real person that enables the causal relation to happen. Likewise for reciting spells, etc. One upshot -- welcome or unwelcome as the case may be -- of this way of thinking about magic is that any account of the mind/body relation other than reductive materialism will apparently count as magical.
First, quinn is a genius for even understanding what he's talking about here, because I sure don't lol. My only thought is another thing herbert said, about whether you want to live in a box or not. The golden path was trying to get people break free of their own matrix and reach for the stars. The belief in magic and things was often used to keep people in their own little bubble from trying to learn anything. Scientizing and reductionism can also be hijacked to keep people from looking for more in the universe.
I always tried reminding myself while reading that the powers in Dune were advanced but explainable but it got hard with the forehead touch memory transfer and the face dancer portal visitors stuff.
I think the forehead touch memory transfer (or, cough, katra transfer) was a retcon. Originally Herbert thought of memories being transmitted genetically. But then he added a line somewhere about the Bene Gesserits remembering the dying moments of their ancestors, and realised he needed a secondary mechanism to explain that.
Just because something isn’t understood, doesn’t make it magic. Just because something can be explained doesn’t make it any less wonderous. Magic and science are merely lenses by which the world is viewed and explained.
Frank Herbert talked about prescience as an experience where the prescient observer (paul, or any other) floats amid an ocean of waves of time, only being able to see above and beyond those chaotically undulating waves relative to the observer's position. mentats saw time differently, seeking to predict events based on observations (like in the foundation series). our perception of time is a human construct. event linearity is real, but our perception of it through space and time is subjective and can be muddied. like heat-waves on top of cars in the summer... heavy
“A technology is an orchestration of [captive] phenomena to our use” (Brian W. Arthur, “The Nature of Technology”, p53). Magic captures obscure phenomena and orchestrates it to some use by the wielder. Magic is a technology regardless of whether the nature of the underlying phenomena is fully understood or not. Semantically, we call anything that uses an unknown or not well understood phenomena, magic, and anything that uses a well understood phenomena technology. However, it’s all tech to me. “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” (Arthur C. Clarke).
Its going to be a sad sad sad day when you inevitably run out of Dune material to make videos on... Your stuff has been an unbelievably helpful resource while I've been writing a Dune RPG campaign.
Yes. They don't call it "Magic," but the spice is basically Pixie Dust. It doesn't make you fly if you think happy thoughts, but it can turn you into someone who can pilot a Holtzman Drive instantly to Neverland. (Second star on the left, straight on till dawn.) Even if we take away the Spice, and all the wonderful things it conveniently does for humanity, conveniently after we gave up Computer Addiction. You still have the Holtzman effect, which conveniently can cause: Levitation, Invisibility, and instantaneous teleportation between all of the world in the Known Universe. (Also, conveniently right after we gave up our Computer Addiction.) Oh yeah, and energy shields that stop guns, but not knives, and explode both the gun, and the shield with the force of Atomics if you shoot it with a Laser. Oh yeah, and Witches that can control you with their seductive voices, Prophecies, a whole family of Messiahs, an evil baron color coded for your convenience, at least 1 Princess (Depending on how you count them) clones that remember their past lives...
12:00 This is actually a point debated by many fantasy writers and fans. Brandon Sanderson's First Law of Magic is that a magical system must be described to the degree it is used to solve problems. His contention is magic without clear laws is a Deus ex Machina the writer uses cheaply to get out of jail. Whereas soft magic is fine in a series like Conan, or LotR, where magic is rarely used on the behalf of the heroes. OTOH is Steven Erikson, who says (without naming him as such) that the Hard Magic view reduces magic to the role of technology, and it undermines the very nature of magic in myth-making: the influence of the unexplained and unexplainable upon our world. That we all, to some degree, wield power and authority that we don't fully understand. And its effects go far beyond our expectations. Myths should encourage that sense of wonder. What's more the shamanistic view of magic common in history (as opposed to more alchemical views that were actually early attempts at science) no two practitioners are the same, or work the same. So Hard Magic does not align with anthropology and human experience. All that tangent has a point in that Erikson came to writing fantasy via Dune. Gardens of the Moon, the 1st Malazan Book of the Fallen, deliberately borrowed elements of Dune's narrative stylings. (Which is why many who have read only traditional fantasy bounce off it so hard.) Also, both were interested in the question, "What is history? How is it formed?" And the influence of events beyond our rational comprehension is a significant part of that.
Does the presence of midichlorians make the force "not magic?" No, the force is very obviously magic. Dune is just as magical as Star Wars, if not more.
"Any technology far advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke) or, as somebody in the Thor movies said: "Magic is just science we do not understand yet."
Probably a top 3 fave QI. So much is revealed about Herbert's worldview, and therefore so much for us to examine in our own, based on how he handled this topic. Especially at the time he wrote the books. Is there a god in Dune? Yes. Is it God? No. Is there a God in Dune? It does not matter. But in not mattering, it becomes the most consequential of questions. Who do we answer to? Do the omnipotent still answer for their actions? To whom? Fascinating questions.
An excellent video essay. I have learned something today thanks to you, and this is not something that happens every day to me. "MAGIC, n. - An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary (1911).
Magick is the application of the knowledge of sacred fractal geometry of space and time cymatic energetics and the relationships of consciousness (at various scales) with the energetic flow or bending of those patterns.
Correction, Quantum Mechanics and Classical Physics do indeed work together, in fact classical physics is shown to be a approximation of qm, its General Relativity that contradicts QM.
A small moment about magic and the perception of it is presented in Doomsday Clock from DC. At one point, just about every character you can think of in the DC universe just manipulated into a confrontation with Dr Manhattan from the Watchmen universe Some of the most powerful magic users in the DC universe attempt to take him on. Zatanna, John Constantine, Ertrigan, Dr Fate. They attempt to use magic on him, and he examines the energies and changes to reality that they are levying against him. He comments that what they think is magic is actually something akin to leftover, discarded code in the program that is the universe. He then takes what they throw at him and casually shapes it into his own version of a "spell", and throws it back at them.
Anyone else think that the spice allows its users to transcend their experience of dimensionality? So, spice rewires the brain to understand and experience the 4th dimension (time) and thus be able to “look into the past or future” (prescience).
I never thought there was magic in Dune, as much as Humans who are psychologically WAY more advanced than us. The same way we are now a lot smarter than say, someone in the Middle Ages, humanity in Dune has had 10,000 years to continue developping. And the Butlerian Jihad accelerated this exponentially. And they can do things which we would nowadays consider "prescience" or "telepathy" or "vision".
From my reading, the first Dune book tries to imply there's not. The Bene Geserite and other abilities are mundane, the effects of strict discipline, raw intelligence, training, or mind altering drugs. But as the story progresses, the abilities seem more and more unbelievable to the point that it's hard to just think these are not supernatural abilities.
They must be natural though. They have scientific explanations.
@@KimDeniseHeidebrecht All that you have said is that humans have slightly different biological realities in the Dune universe than in ours. Not that it is magic.
As far as The Voice goes... a crying baby will stimulate a mother to lactate. Cats can mimic the pitch of the crying in order to manipulate their female human. So there is in fact a biological basis for this ability. And given 10k years to play with manipulating it, I bet humans could achieve it.
And the Bene Gesserit breeding program is specifically maintained within royal houses using highly trained concubines selected from within that stock. And the first book DOES point out that it is a flawed system as it is only as good as the obedience of said concubines. It is clear in the books that they KNEW Jessica would be disobedient but that she held the key genetic fragments that they needed to control. It is also made clear that they COULD have just used direct genetic manipulation like the Tleilax but chose the more difficult way both because of their aversion to technology and because they hoped that wild mutations would enhance the characteristics they were breeding for. As far as the need for controlled environments... Id say humans did pretty good breeding livestock and crops for the last 10k years without anything remotely resembling a controlled environment.
The spice itself is just an analog for alchemy's philosopher's stone and all superhuman abilities like prescience ultimately spring from it. Spice prolongs life to near immortality, heightens the senses and induces spiritual enlightenment/growth, just like the philosopher's stone.
Psychic power are natural to humans. Every prophet is the testimony of that. Even the Buddha who discourage his disciples on abusing those powers explain that it is a normal thing for anyone who train their minds through meditation. We just lost the proper training to weld those abilities.
@@KimDeniseHeidebrecht "the only real genetic memories that exist in our world are instinct and the genetic characteristics of a life form." This is false. Scientists have been studying for a long time real genetic memory. Mice are artificially inseminated with the sperm of mice from three groups: those who were traumatized via electric shock when citrus scent was introduced, and those who were fed when the scent was introduced, and those who were the control.
In all three groups the offspring of the mice who never had any interaction with their fathers reacted accordingly when introduced to the citrus scent the first time. The shock progeny froze in fear, the fed progeny salivated, and the control reacted normally.
There is 100% a genetic memory we just don't know how it works. Inter-generational trauma and success has very real effects even when the parents and offspring never met.
Frank Herbet himself expresses it perfectly in Heretics:
"This is the awe-inspiring universe of magic: There are no atoms, only waves and motions all around. Here, you discard all belief in barriers to understanding. You put aside understanding itself. This universe cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be detected in any way by fixed perceptions. It is the ultimate void where no preordained screens occur upon which forms may be projected. You have only one awareness here-the screen of the magi: Imagination! Here, you learn what it is to be human. You are a creator of order, of beautiful shapes and systems, an organizer of chaos."
And this is why Dune so wunderfully weaves together fantasy and science fiction. Herberts magic arises when an observer encounters the possbility space that is the physical universe.
So Frank had an understanding of quantum mechanics?
@@squaeman_2644 quantum mechanics is just a new bottle for old wine.
@@carolsimpson4422 nice
@@carolsimpson4422 did you come up with that?
This just sounds like those esoteric middle-aged moms that are on some spiritual trip. "Everything is just energy waves. Can you feel them too? You just have to open up."
A note on the voices of the sisterhood, in the real world right NOW movie studios realized they can use sounds that the human ear can pick up but the human mind can't perceive to influence how people are feeling. There is a specific tone that we can't hear but for some reason raises a human's anxiety levels, and that sound is often used in some scenes in scary movies. In my opinion, the idea that a human could train themselves to make a sound they can hear but not perceive is actually very much in line with Dune's setting and the idea of conflicting facts or realities having to be accepted in order to grasp higher levels of personal power.
Are you talking about infrasound?
Do you have a link or a term for this effect?
creating inner ear agitations in people is a long way off of actually being able to order them to do what you want.
I haven't seen any comparisons to hypnotism, which I've heard some people can fall under (lol). Jessica mentions several times finding her victims "register" from listening to them speak maybe that's her noticing what sounds would stop someone in their tracks or "hynotise" them, etc. I certainly could believe any humans voice can strike fear or calm someone and given many years of training could provide greater ability.
Whether it's magic does depend on semantics, but from a writing standpoint Dune uses several "magic" systems, best explained by Brandon Sanderson in his talks about the laws of creating magic systems. Personally, I would say that while things like the mentats and the various Tleilaxu shenanigans are within possibility if we factor in an assumption of pre-series bio-engineering (bit of transhumanism, that is), the prescience abilities and other things the BG and their offshoots can do ease into magic (at least by my definition). It's a bit like the debate of whether psychic powers in sci-fi are considered "magic." Again, depends on your definition, but from a perspective of writing and world building, if you're designing the system with its strengths, weaknesses, and limitations, then it's effectively magic. I would further speculate that things like no-rooms and no-ships are properly labeled as "magitech," but, again, that's just me.
Personally, I'm a fan of "sufficiently analyzed magic" (to quote Foglio). Because human minds are built to recognize patterns, and exploit them. But I'm also the type of person that loves trying to figure out how stage magicians do their tricks, and admires the skill that goes into creating the wonder.
I think that would all be true if Herbert hadn't gone out of his way to make sure we know that the everything the Bene Geserit do can be taught and just require proper training. The Fremen are taught the weirding way and become a virtually unstoppable force because of it. Because it like the rest of the Bene Geserit "powers" are just teachable, learned skills. Perhaps only some possess prescience, but this is shown to be entirely up to bloodlines and not an external magical or supernatural influence.
@@patreekotime4578 Magic doesn't have to be external, also stuff like seeing the past and psychic position is magic and there are plenty of powers that even the people in Dune show no scientific understanding of, most stuff with spice is like this. Why does spice do all the things it does, who knows its just magic. Dune shows a good mix of the arcane and the scientific with a nice bit of overlap where they use science to boost the arcane and arcane to boost the science.
@@patreekotime4578 but in many fantasy settings, magic is taught. Some even go as far as having it available to any who would study hard enough. But even in settings where only a few have the ‘power’, it mostly is something that must be studied and honed. It might just be semantics, but the reason why ppl think of the Bene Gesserit as witches is because their powers are not understood and how they do so is hidden. Like any good magician would do.
Like Arthur C. Clark said, any technology, if advanced enough, seems like magic.
So while FH said there is no magic in the Dune Universe, to those living in it, that is what they see.
@@StixFerryMan In most fantasy, what is *taught* is how to control the magical powers, but in most fantasy those powers are either genetic or gained in some way, and almost always involves the manipulation of external energy.
What I mean is that most of the things the Bene Gesserit do like the Voice and the Weirding appear like magic or psychic abilities but are not, they are just skills that anyone can learn. And their prescience abilities are passive or perceptive, and apparently nearly everyone in the Dune universe possess them at least a little. (If EVERYONE has a magic power is it still magic?) They arn't excerting control over some external force or pulling those visions from a magic ball, they just "see" them.
@@falconJB There are plenty of aspects of human biology that we dont really understand. But it is apparent that everyone or almost everyone in the Dune universe has some prescience abilities. Herbert seems to believe it is just be a natural part of human psychology. Is it still magic if everyone has it in small amounts? Is it magic that some birds can mimic other sounds perfectly? To a primative people that would certainly seem like magic. But its just a natural part of those birds biology.
There is certainly esoteric philosophy in Dune and some influence from occult magick - for example, Frank Herbert constructed his own ‘Dune Tarot’ into the fabric of the story. He speaks about this in one of his interviews on UA-cam.
There is no indication that the Dune Tarot is any more accurate than Earth Tarot. One of the underlying premises of the Dune Universe is that prescience is a biological or physchological "wild talent" that is inherent in humans, with the spice amplifying it's effect. The Dune Tarot cards themselves are just bits of cardboard. But the user is able to focus their own natural gifts onto them. The Dune Tarot muddies Paul and Alia's visions because of it's sheer popularity... millions of people all attempting to use their own crude abilities creates a kind of white noise or static in the prescience visions. No magic required.
It's also not clear if these cards are viewed as "occult" at all in the Dune Universe... the Bene Geserit are descibed as "witches" but the Tarot do not appear to be connected to them by people in general. (Even though they very likely introduced them purposefully to obstruct Paul). Paul's (and Leto II's) religions appear to be a hodgepodge of belief systems that combine as many different historical religions as possible. In that kind of schema, it seems like it would be hard to title anything as "occult" the way we do in comparison to a dominant Judeo-Christian world view.
@Don Ragnar
*Yeah but the Dune Tarot isn’t really magic and has nothing to do with magic - it has to do with something else...*
@@patreekotime4578 Earth Tarot? Sounds like Earth Food... too generic.
Let me say that the Tarot does in fact work. But before you label me as some nutjob let me also say that it has nothing to do with magic, or the occult. Yes, that does seem like a strange statement.
I have a reason why I started studying the Tarot. I am a magician, and while card tricks can shock and amaze people, they still know that it is a trick. But do the same thing with a deck of Tarot cards and they start believing it might just be real. (With some theatrics.)
But back to my statement that the Tarot does indeed work, most people just react and reject it. But have they actually looked into it? Researched it? Tested it? Have you?
The key point to understanding the Tarot and how it actually works is when I read an expert saying you do not use the cards to predict the future, but to guide you in your choices. (I am paraphrasing from something I read a years ago, and can’t fully remember, but this is essentially it.) There were 2 reasons for this, one was legal, the other was to make sure people weren’t just blindly following the cards but thinking for themselves.
Suddenly it made sense. Rather than being a magical thing, it was a psychological tool that dealt with a focused kind of brainstorming. Our brains are great at “filling in the blanks”, so we end up thinking and opening our minds to thoughts and ideas we may not have had, or go in directions we may never have thought of.
If the Ixians can block prescience using technology, it does indeed imply that magic and science exist in the same system. Cool video.
Or it means that prescience is also something that can be scientifically explained, much like the psychohistory from Asimov's _Foundation_ .
@@GholaTleilaxuI believe prescience is primarily genetic and predictive reasoning like a mentat on steroids. Some people are just able to use spice melange to see the future, but only of those they’re genetically similar enough to see.
Eventually with Sionas descendants, the DNA must be scrambled in such a way that a prescient can no longer make the logical assumptions necessary to see the future.
Would have been an excellent opportunity for a discussion of Asimov's quotation, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Just, in the Dune books, the technology is genetics and the human mind.
I believe Arthur C. Clarke made that observation.
I like the idea of technology being just genetics and the human mind.
Quinn’s channel is really one of the gems of UA-cam 😭
Holtzman's work is not understood, it simply functions.
Norma Cenva understand it. The only one.
@@natyreyes1580what what about holtzman?
For internally consistent fantasy stories where the characters treat magic scientifically, check out Harry Turtledove. He even has one series where theoretical sorcerers work to unify the “laws” of similarity and of contagion, and they feel just like theoretical physicists working to unify general relativity and the Standard Model.
I'm not typically one for nit picking, but quantum physics deals on the scale of the *subatomic* not *microscopic* , the particles in question are too small to reflect light, so it impossible to spot with a *microscope* .
*Sigh*, ok I got that out of my system...
Not to nit pick your nit picking but microscopic has multiple meaning in vernacular English, like many words do, including simply 'very small'.
@@falconJB Not to nitpick your nitpicking of the nitpicking, but when making references to quantum scales - this takes the discussion to a place of well-defined & unambiguous scientific, so colloquial vernacular is not an appropriate interpretation for that context.
@@Gubers combo broken :(
@@InnuendoXP The majority of the video is in vernacular English.
@@falconJB and yet scales and concepts when combined are typically expected to be precise. Nobody uses "quantum" in a non-scientific vernacular. Doesn't happen, it has no colloquial connotations.
At first I didn’t like this channel but it’s grown on me. I don’t even like dune. Something about this guy seems so genuine.
Quinn’s got *that* voice! Keep on listening, compadre!
if you ever decide to tackle to books, this channel is a really helpful resource
He is aye. Like he's happy to share a genuine interest of his. I know of dune well and have need of this channel.
I have need of
Whack
I find Dune more of a science fantasy rather than science fiction. The story took place so far in the future and there’s barely any focus on technology. A lot of the things are mystical. In that regard, Dune is in the same category as Star Wars with force powers and etc.
I'm of a similar opinion to you. There are certain differences in mechanics, but it's ultimately relative. Clark's Third Law comes to mind. Thanks for the indepth video.
Great vid. On a related note, I'm on my second reading of Dune ... I tend to regard the Fremen as less superstitious than I did on my first read ... like they are onto something and everyone else is confused. Paul IS the Lisan al-Gaib. The Missionara Protectiva is kind of a foil ... with or without it, Paul is some kind of Chosen One. Whether that is natural or supernatural ... again probably a matter of semantics.
The story itself is pure magic 😄
Couldn’t of said it better myself 👌👌👌❤️
As far as a sci-fi fictional world's (or even just a modern one, similar to our own) take on magic, I've always liked the way that the cartoon "Gargoyles" took. One line that still stands out in my mind is a character encouraging the fight against a magical force whereas most of the protagonist had little to no connection to make other than what was naturally available to them, saying something like "Energy is energy, whether magical or man-made." I just always thought "ok, that makes sense." Plus, I think it avoids the downfall of a lot of modern takes on magic, that being that there aren't a lot of clear rules and modernity and science can't seem to hold up against anything magical very well.
I think of magic and science are two languages used to describe a cosmos in which there are strange areas where the two overlap. Rod Serling said it best “It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.”
"There's magic in the metal, there's magic in us all" -Manowar
Well...this must mean something...i had not even thought of man o war in a few years and listened to a few track last night. Maybe the warriors of metal are real. Lol
We wear leather, we wear spikes, we rule the night.
... the least expected and most magical comment here. XD
Steel is strong. Flesh is stronger.
@@Yora21 Steel is strongest, so say we all.
I believe there was a shift from supernatural to natural in Star Wars Ep. IV-VI and I-III. What was measured with a scientific doohickey as "mitichlorians" was originally simply called "The Force."
This was superbly done. You covered a great deal in a short time. I'd love to see you expand on this and present it in a formal paper or even at a convention. I'd back you with a donation for this specific goal if you decide to go this way with it.
The only possible standard we can use to measure science vs. magic is by comparing to the real world, but we don't know everything about science in the real world yet. Therefore anything we can't explain using our real life knowledge is therefore magic. The distinction between magic and fictional science really comes down to whether the author wants to use technobabble to attempt to make it make sense or not, which is always going to be a fruitless endeavor. One the reasons I struggle to find enjoyment in soft sci-fi that pretends to be hard sci-fi (like Dune) is that it takes itself too seriously instead of just admitting that its making stuff up wholecloth. Unless you can actually explain to me how the Voice would work in a logical sense, I'm putting it on the same shelf as psykers shooting lightning bolts out of their mind in Warhammer 40k. Which is awesome, I love 40k and I don't think psychic powers need to be perfectly explained, but its just so much more fun when the media is leaning into it instead of trying to justify why what its talking about isn't fantastical. And no, saying "its just a more overt version of humans manipulating each other though speech every day" doesn't cut it. Herbert could have put an explanation in there like "The Bene Geserit were gene scientists and they put a gene into most of humankind thousands of years ago that makes them susceptible to mind control through specific voice tones" but he didn't do that. He left it mysterious on purpose, so he wants mystery, but he wants to sit back and say that the mystery doesn't qualify it as magic. I think he really just wanted to write a fantasy epic in space but wanted to set himself apart somehow.
Fun analysis - I wonder how great Quinn'd be analyzing philosophy.
I thought that Dune's prescience was just pattern recognition cranked up to 11, just as the Bene Gesserit Voice is just psychological manipulation cranked up to 11.
That's pretty much how I see it. I just see that they are all very well trained and have used certain drugs to change their neurological system so that they cranked up natural abilities to such a level that they seem magical.
This is almost certainly correct, especially since Duncan with his mentat abilities in Children of Dune for a split second is able to calculate the future similar to Paul he notes.
This is the explanation Chief Anderton in Minority Report gives to Danny Witwer when speaking about the 'Precogs' abilities.
But that doesn't necessarily explain being able to actually SEE your ancestors past.
@@squaeman_2644 in my mind I see them as a human species From Another Dimension a lot like ours except they hold on to some type of biological memory. Something in their DNA. I mean, there are animals that genetic memories. Humans just haven't been able to be proven to have something like that. But in this universe, humans can do it. I still see it as science because there's a certain knowledge to how it works as opposed to it being mythical like magic. But I feel the same way about the questions. I just prefer seeing it more like science as opposed to Magic.
Hey Quinn, I really enjoy your channel and the fact that you are actually being meticulous and analytical about the sci-fi classics you're reviewing. It's often the case, at least from my experience, that many reviewers on youtube are trying to provide a fan-boy service in relation to such series, without actually trying to discuss the ideas behind them. This here is a very interesting subject. While it might be a matter of semantics, as some might argue, that doesn't bring the connotation that you cant have a precise argument based on precise definitions. While I was doing my MA in philosophy there were several occasions in which I was wondering about magic and the metaphysical assumptions behind it. You discuss the problem from more of an epistemic perspective(how magic is known), but it is possible to discuss it in terms of its metaphysics as well(what form of existence would be necessary for magic). So let me try to present the problem from the second perspective. Often, historically, when philosophers talk about existence, they rely on two basic concepts: substance and ontology. Substance, in the philosophical sense of the word, you might think of simply as the most basic thing existing in the world, while ontology is the list of those basic existing things. Different models of the world, be it the actual or imagined one, can be based on very different ontologies. For example, I might think that matter is the most basic element of reality and thus, every object, quality, and interaction can be reduced to it or deduced from it. For such a world, its ontology, or its list of basic existing things, would describe only matter. Descartes, for example, would say that there are two substances: matter and consciousness, the idea being that, as substances, they are irreducible to each other. Now we might ask this question: what type of ontology would be necessary for a world, which can be described scientifically? There is no easy or short answer here, but, for the sake of this not turning into a full-blown annoying lecture, let's propose three. First, the ontology of the world would need to include one single substance. Second, everything in this world would need to be under causal closure. In other words, every object, quality, and relation produced by this substance has to be locked in a cause and effect relationship. Third, there are principles(or laws) governing these causal relationships, which are fully reducible to, or as, qualities of the basic substance. Now, why can't we fit magic within that system? Well, because magic breaks relations of cause and effect. In order for it to be described, it would be required for us to assume a second substance in our ontology(consciousness or transcendent forms/names of things), which is irreducible to the first and is not causally related to it. Now, let's observe the world of Dune. If there is something seemingly supernatural about it, it is connected with consciousness and its abilities. For us to accept these abilities as magical, we would need to accept that they and their effects are causally isolated from the causality of the physical world. They clearly are not, for The Spice which causes them is physical, part of physical(and biological) processes. As such, these abilities are part of a single web of causal relationships, stemming from one basic ontological substance: matter. Therefore, they can't be understood as magical, from a metaphysical perspective.
Maybe the magic are the friends you make along the way.
*is
In a sauna 🧖♂️ 👨 🚹
And then remake when they die.
Lolz
I like how you present the Dune mythos. Your presentations are a great primer for the books for those who are curious enough to read 'em.
I've read the series once and it was quite the romance.. Chapterhouse left me unresolved....it was all a dream? I loved the character of Supreme Bashar Miles Teg yet that story remains unresolved without the original author.
I understand that dune has continued to expand without the original author for the past thirty-plus years with his son Brian and several writers filling in the history. Admirable, yet....something I ignore as it doesn't meet the strange, bleak and potentially possible world Frank created.
My question to you is;
Where and when does your best DUNE story end?
God Emperor?
Heretics?
Children?
Sisterhood?
Your love of the the initial story is fantastic, even if I feel you bias the story towards the first three books...well..ok...four books. I hope you discuss the two books past GEOD...im sure it's already on your radar.
Keep up the love, mate!
Nothing admirable about Brian's continuation of the books. It's either overly pretentious that he thought that he could do it in a way that stays faithful to his father's work or just greedy to cash in on his father's success.
@@mrTannu666
I can't speak for the work of Brian as I have not read it. I just assumed anything by him or any other author would be a sad derivative of the original work of Frank.
@@brandonskala And you are correct at that.
I'm of the mind that it has more to do with how much you want to actually consider the universe the story is being told in. The use of swords, knives, pellet guns and nobility gives it a medieval feel where magic would be a norm. Then the spaceships and multi-planet background of the story gives it a science fiction feel. Giant worms can fit in either scenario. One of the reasons Dune is great literature is that allows the user to go either way and still enjoy the overall story.
Everything's relative...Abolishing thinking machines and related technology does not have to be a step backward in time; it can be distinctly "modern" as far as the Dune universe is concerned because it leads humanity forward on the Golden Path (contrary to what some might believe, I think that Leto II came not to initiate the Golden Path, but to put humanity back on track with regard to it). From the point of view of the Dune universe, thinking machines are "old-fashioned" because by now human-based approaches (Mentats, Navigators) have been found that replace them.
I think Frank Herbert did not intend for the superhuman abilities such as those of the Bene Gesserit, the Kwisatz Haderach or the Honored Matres to be viewed as magic, but I do believe that he must have been aware of the fact that there would be readers of his work who would do just that.
To me, it also boils down to what genre of fiction one considers Dune to be: science fiction, fantasy or something in between. Fantasy deals mostly in the inexplicable or impossible, while also mostly maintaining an in-story consistency. Magic can be a centerpiece in fantasy. Science fiction deals mostly in what is feasible, if not with our current understanding of the laws of nature. In sofar as there is magic in science fiction, it has to be explained in-story. However, the genres are just two sides of the same coin, namely fiction, and not all works of literature generally considered to be fantasy or science fiction fall firmly in either category.
Say for example you have a system of metahuman powers. If we are writing a story that is (mostly) science fiction, we would have to explain it thoroughly in-story. We could tell our readers that those with metahuman powers have the ability to affect the universe on a quantum level by affecting the probability or by influencing the outcome of such things as quantum entanglement. Perhaps this is achieved by nanites or other artificial enhancements in one's body and mind, perhaps not. The fact that it is explained to a certain amount, enough for the reader to get a grasp of how a person with such powers draws on them, and that there is a (somewhat) scientific explanation for them would classify a work of fiction as science fiction.
If instead, we were writing a story that is (mostly) fantasy we would approach the same system differently. We would write that the character just imposes his or her will on the things around him or her, both inanimate and animate. With a single word or a wave of his or her hand entire armies or edifices are torn down. Enemies are choked to death with just a single gesture, or would be struck by lightning from his or her hand. Or the magic user would utter an incantation and life would spring up where there was none previously. There may be a an explanation of the origins of metahuman powers to a certain extent, or the cost of using them. However, in the end it would be a plot device most certainly way beyond our curent understanding of the in-story universe as a reader.
To me, Dune fits in the category of fiction that sits mostly on the side of science fiction, but with enough things left to the imagination of the reader that it is not hard or pure science fiction. Which to me is the essence of all great literature: it defies true and firm categorization. And it shows: after having read the first book of Dune over 25 times (not kidding here), I still manage to find new layers to explore.
These videos are fun.
Your voice is amazing, Please do audiobooks and voicework in shows/movies/games.
"Always in motion, the future is!". - Yoda 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's funny, Your paraphrashing Fritz Leiber in the many lectures he gave on writing Fantasy. "It can be impossible. but it must be consistent." ( I'm parahasing him. LOL)
When you LOL'd, how loud did you laugh (because you were paraphrasing him)?
Once magic is understood, it becomes science. That is very true, magic might simply be science we don't understand yet.
But my question for you is: Once you do understand it, what name will you give it?
Why can't magic be the name of the science that allows one to break the laws of physics and the Universe. We have been calling it that for thousands of years why can't we just keep calling it magic and still be scientific about it?
Great video as always.
Excellent thoughts as always, “ Magic is only something that’s science has not resolved yet.” The practitioners of the disciplines in Dune understand where there “magic” comes from. The ordinary humans do not. For example, the sisterhood are still called witches.
It's semantics in the sense that it is possible to make a decent argument for both the "yes" and the "no" side if we so choose. Personally, however, I find it takes much more effort and handwaving to convincingly argue for "no magic", than it does to admit the notion of a little bit of magic in the Dune universe. So I take the lazy way out, and say that "yes, sort of a little bit, but nothing that you have to worry about."
So happy you're making this style of video again. Been too longggg
Dude your analysis is so beautiful and so integrating of many schools of thought to making points of answering questions.
Bravo
Trying to read the quote with the stars moving in the background is marketing my eyes trip out. Great vid though! Love your work.
Paul's prescience is the result of spice saturation couple to his mentat training. The limited prescience of the navigators is prescisely limited because they are no mentats. That is why the Bene Geserit feared Duncan be a Kwisatz Haderach in Heretics of Dune... By awaking him to his past, they knew he had mentat capabilities buried in there
The Bene Geserit were breeding makind for the last 90 generations in an attempt to create a man who could explore this thing that they were terrified of.
Paul wasn't a full mentat, he just had some very basic training. Remember his father asked him if he wanted to be a mentat after he showed some proficiency in that pathway. Normally, mentats are trained from infancy, Paul was 15, and he was no true mentat.
Paul was the right person (Atradies heir), had the right genes (Bene Geserit breeding program), had some mentat training (which probably helped), and was in the right place (spice-saturated) at the right time (Harkonan/Emperor treachery). The perfect storm.
His son Leto also had prescience to an even stronger degree, but wasn't a mentat ;)
So Bene gesserit were breeding to get magigian... so Magic.
Good discussion. You get a thumps up, for the Aquinas quote alone 👍. My only caveat is that you should do more to define magic, because magic = unscientific is not necessarily a universally accepted definition.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ~ Arthur C. Clarke
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!" - Foglio
Up!
That's only relative to the viewer. The people of the Dune universe are closer to being on the same level as each other than they are to us so it's doubtful that anything going on in dune is sufficiently advanced to be considered magic.
@@DrewLSsix There were (are) still plenty of backwards or religious cultures in the Dune universe. Thus the nomenclature of referring to Bene Gesserit as "witches".
@@DrewLSsix That would depend on the class of person wouldn't it? To Thufiir Hawat, Lady Jessica's abilities were magic, and he wasn't stupid or superstitious, merely ignorant of what Bene Gesserit training entailed. (Think of Thufir & Jessica's "spy" confrontation.)
One of your best videos. For an example of "magic" in a Fantasy setting that is perhaps more science than magic, see the books set in the Cosmere by Brandon Sanderson. Especially the Stormlight Archive. Ironically, the difference between how Sanderson describes surges and bindings in his Fantasy series and the way Herbert talks about prescience and Voice in Dune is that the former follow almost mathematical set of rules and the latter is more philosophy than science.
Love your stuff Sir, but my inner teacher can't help but point out that Google isn't technically a source, it's a search engine. There is no "official google definition" of anything, only what the algorithm ranks as the most relevant webpage. That being said, fascinating as always to hear your thoughts on the Dune Universe!
Dune occupies an interesting in-between space with human abilities, how they grow, and how they are perceived. The banning of anything resembling a "thinking machine" forced humanity to develop their abilities to the utmost. I think that at the peak of that, by itself, without the spice, sappho juice and the like, that to us they would appear as the most disciplined and skilled of all human beings. When you introduce the various enhancing substances of the Dune universe though, it does push human ability to what would seem to be almost magical. There's a lot of examination of ecology and politics, but sometimes I wish there was a bit more of a look at the humanistic side of things, an finer look at how far humans could go without any sort of enhancements at all, via technology or substances. I wonder how far we could go, ability wise, if we dedicated ourselves more to our physical and mental development over thousands of years with minimal cybernetics and substance enhancment, if we ever came across somethng that worked as reliably as the spice.
Hi Quinn, physicist here. You are incorrect in your statement at 6:00. The macroscopic physics we see at our scales are a consequence of averaging out all of the particle interactions and the quantum scale. I fear you may have confused it with the irreconcilability of General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory.
I have so much respect for you Quinn. You're a really deep thinker. Too bad you weren't there to advise on the later Dune novels.
Another very enjoyable video there. I have to thank you, because of your videos, I finally resolved to actually read Dune. Onto Dune Messiah now, and I am loving it. Thanks Quinn!
I also follow David Lynch and his daily weather report came in right next to this, which I found amusing. ;)
This video feels a bit like an “Isaac Arthur” video, good stuff.
It's Science Fiction, not Fantasy. One thing is that people think that magic exists, but they are wrong within their universe. That's why I didn't like the concept of witches with telekinetic and other powers in the prequels. It's not like a gifted Bene Gesserit analyzing people's reaction and identify it as a lie.
BTW: It's the same thing about the use of higher technology. In Frank Herbert's books, I could believe in a universe without any computers, but because of Brian's more explicit style of writing and describing machines, I was always thinking: How could you even do that without at least a Windows 20?
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” - Author C Clarke. Can be applied here. In one sense, 'technology' is the evolved techniques of the group that developed them (ie Bene Gesserite) relative to others; but in another sense, the whole setting of the Dune universe that takes place thousands of years in the future.
I suggest reading “magic realism” literature. I remember I read many years ago “The Aleph” by Jorge Luis Borges. The explanation of what the aleph is helped me to understand what prescience is and why is so difficult to explain and handle.
Some things are really hard to explain as scientifically possible like having the memories of ancestors or slowing down time and teleporting in hand to hand combat.
Mostly its hard to explain what Herbert was even thinking when he was writing that whole book... Its the weirdest one of the series IMO.
I feel like much of the New Wave and New Weird movements in SFF blur such boundaries often. For example, in China Miéville’s Bas-Lag novels, something akin to magic exists called thaumaturgy, which is a form of energy that comes in quanta-like units called thaumaturgons which is channeled through an individual’s body for them to use. Or in Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials and The Book of Dust, the subatomic particle Dust which bestows consciousness and is also dark matter is matter by behaviour but spirit by essence. Dust is used to impart various magical abilities throughout the multiverse of the books, but is under lain by external forces beyond human understanding.
To me Dune is an experiment on how far you can stretch scifi and still not be fantasy. And how can you know for sure how far you can go, if you do not sometimes get too close to the edge or even over it. To me, the intent is to keep within in scifi without magic, but invent ways to stretch it as far as it can go.
I love the way how you explain and your voice makes it easy to listen. ✌🏽
Magic in Dune?
Frank Herbert: It is something difficult to explain when you don't have the direct perspective of a near prescient awareness of the universe on a macroscopic level. As well as the subtle subconscious manipulations that can be attained with the right understanding of human behavior.
Brian Herbert: GUESS WHAT?! But before the original books, there were telekinetic sorceresses. And the original guild navigator could teleport anywhere at will. Trust me, I read my dad's notes.
David Lynch: Paul can crack the ground with a yell, and summon rain at will (never mind this would kill the sandworms he needs to enact his political takeover).
i like to think prescience is an experience the brain produces when it processes the hyperanalysis characters in dune are able to achieve through various training. an uchiha in the dune universe would have prescience.
Another Great video!!! I truly LOVE your work!!! But, because of my LOVE for your work, I must yet again ask the question......Ultimate Guide to Dune: Chapterhouse........I swear you said it would be out 12/19/2020......please......an update at least??
I would say the much more supernatural force in Dune is the idea of genetic memory and reliving the lives of their past. While prescience, physical manipulation and such can be grounded in natural order, there is no such link for genetic memory.
With the arguments about how "It is all a natural function", then worlds like Forgotten Realms also have no magic, as it is all natural functions and manipulation of a real thing. Dune has 'magic', or nothing does.
then all we have is magic too. science doesnt exist. why does our natural forces get to be named science and other universes doesnt? not saying what you said is wrong, but the consequence is what i said.
@@ismata3274 because our scientists presume to know the truth, and they do nothing with their presumed knowledge
@@jaguillermol 😑 no.
This is definitely an interesting discussion. I mean, how many series that include magic have whole institutions dedicated to the "study of magic." From Hogwarts in Harry Potter, to the Mages Guild, the College of Winterhold and the Psyjic order in Elder Scrolls, the Scholia Arcana and the entire academies of gnomes in Amalur. I've seen webcomics where the spells are even expressed in writing as complex formula and the classes run like physics departments, all treated with the rigour of science yet always considered of something other than the material world.
It could be a vague distinction that "magical" energied are separated usually from "material/real/physical" energy in the real world maybe, or something. Depends almost entirely in the author and the fiction and the semantics.
I had a thought for my own writing to potentially tackle the difference. A music file plays sound but there is metadata on the track. Author, year, album, track listing etc. None of that is encoded in the actual song. Perhaps in some settings, "physical" is the music of the thing, while magic is the code that sorts it by its underlying nature. Or maybe music is magical, beyond hard facts of who, when, and where and is itself entirely subjective.
Listen I have no idea I'm just word-vomiting writing brainstorms here.
I once heard an interesting definition of magic that rather corroborates your preternatural semantics: magic is the ability to make the improbable [circumstance] a reality.
And in many ways, that is the understanding what Paul says about prescience, but entwined with an understanding that you can apply energy to change the natural equilibrium so that from the new state emerges the improbable.
Electrolysis, for example, applies electrical energy in water so that the improbable free hydrogen and hydroxy ions are perceptible.
And its that possible application of willpower and effort that is missing from Pauls explanation to Stilgar. It might have been implied that their current efforts are indeed the most practical application of energy.
Another very nicely put together analysis. Keep it up man!
You pulled me back right at the end, bravo. I was getting lost in the discussion of the semantics of the differences of the natural laws. I agree I don't believe Herbert wanted to push any kind of magical agenda. He would certain want us to understand that there are things outside most persons' understanding. (But could we not get there cognitively or make a machine to translate for us given enough time? He doesn't answer this, as his civilization doesn't get past the 100k+ year mark, though he does show that humanity will usually find a way to adapt to survive.) He didn't want that as part of his teachings. It was about how despite the extremes to which we could go in different directions ie biology(Tleilax), technology(Ix), warfare(the Fremen or Sardukar or Fish Speakers), etc. that we would still be held to the consequences of our actions. We'll never find that one thing that puts us outside of ourselves to truly make us gods. At least not while we're bound to this dimension. One quote that I have thought upon often of his “There is no escape-we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” Sorry for the ramble.
Edit: I also want to point out how much I appreciate your thoughtful and often unique analysis of the material. I may not agree with everything you mention, but I certain give it serious consideration. As a Dune fan for the past 20 years, your channel has really reminded me of how much I appreciated Frank's novels(though I haven't read them all outside the Dune series). Keep up the excellent work, Quinn!
One way of thinking about the distinction between magic and science, even when magic is portrayed as following precise and knowable laws, is that magic involves *semantic relations being causal* . In other words, X has causal power to bring about or have an effect on Y because X is *about* Y. An example would be harming someone's shoulder by sticking a pin into the shoulder of a voodoo doll representing the person; it's the meaning-relation or reference-relation between the voodoo doll and the real person that enables the causal relation to happen. Likewise for reciting spells, etc.
One upshot -- welcome or unwelcome as the case may be -- of this way of thinking about magic is that any account of the mind/body relation other than reductive materialism will apparently count as magical.
I really enjoy your work man, you've got a great presentation style.
The problem with the supernatural is that one could argue that nothing is beyond nature, merely our understanding of it.
First, quinn is a genius for even understanding what he's talking about here, because I sure don't lol. My only thought is another thing herbert said, about whether you want to live in a box or not. The golden path was trying to get people break free of their own matrix and reach for the stars. The belief in magic and things was often used to keep people in their own little bubble from trying to learn anything. Scientizing and reductionism can also be hijacked to keep people from looking for more in the universe.
I always tried reminding myself while reading that the powers in Dune were advanced but explainable but it got hard with the forehead touch memory transfer and the face dancer portal visitors stuff.
I think the forehead touch memory transfer (or, cough, katra transfer) was a retcon. Originally Herbert thought of memories being transmitted genetically. But then he added a line somewhere about the Bene Gesserits remembering the dying moments of their ancestors, and realised he needed a secondary mechanism to explain that.
@@zarquondam So magic.
Can we all stop and appreciate Quinns Daniel impersonation? Because he has the inflections on point lol
Great content. One of your best vids, IMO!
Great video, as always. One suggestion, if I may; read the passages slower... don't rush over the words.
This video is awesome, thank you very much for putting so much effort into investigating this concept
And I quote, “Fucking Magnets, How Do They Work?”
They dress pretty.
Just because something isn’t understood, doesn’t make it magic.
Just because something can be explained doesn’t make it any less wonderous.
Magic and science are merely lenses by which the world is viewed and explained.
And science is the black and white two dimensional lense
well said, in the end, "magic,science" are just labels we give to phenomenon so we can understand them and form a connection with them.
Frank Herbert talked about prescience as an experience where the prescient observer (paul, or any other) floats amid an ocean of waves of time, only being able to see above and beyond those chaotically undulating waves relative to the observer's position. mentats saw time differently, seeking to predict events based on observations (like in the foundation series).
our perception of time is a human construct. event linearity is real, but our perception of it through space and time is subjective and can be muddied. like heat-waves on top of cars in the summer...
heavy
“A technology is an orchestration of [captive] phenomena to our use” (Brian W. Arthur, “The Nature of Technology”, p53). Magic captures obscure phenomena and orchestrates it to some use by the wielder. Magic is a technology regardless of whether the nature of the underlying phenomena is fully understood or not. Semantically, we call anything that uses an unknown or not well understood phenomena, magic, and anything that uses a well understood phenomena technology. However, it’s all tech to me. “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” (Arthur C. Clarke).
*Stilgar to Paul:* Soooooooo......no?
Inject the dune content into my veins
Love the videos Quinn!
Its going to be a sad sad sad day when you inevitably run out of Dune material to make videos on... Your stuff has been an unbelievably helpful resource while I've been writing a Dune RPG campaign.
Yes. They don't call it "Magic," but the spice is basically Pixie Dust. It doesn't make you fly if you think happy thoughts, but it can turn you into someone who can pilot a Holtzman Drive instantly to Neverland. (Second star on the left, straight on till dawn.) Even if we take away the Spice, and all the wonderful things it conveniently does for humanity, conveniently after we gave up Computer Addiction. You still have the Holtzman effect, which conveniently can cause: Levitation, Invisibility, and instantaneous teleportation between all of the world in the Known Universe. (Also, conveniently right after we gave up our Computer Addiction.) Oh yeah, and energy shields that stop guns, but not knives, and explode both the gun, and the shield with the force of Atomics if you shoot it with a Laser. Oh yeah, and Witches that can control you with their seductive voices, Prophecies, a whole family of Messiahs, an evil baron color coded for your convenience, at least 1 Princess (Depending on how you count them) clones that remember their past lives...
12:00 This is actually a point debated by many fantasy writers and fans. Brandon Sanderson's First Law of Magic is that a magical system must be described to the degree it is used to solve problems. His contention is magic without clear laws is a Deus ex Machina the writer uses cheaply to get out of jail. Whereas soft magic is fine in a series like Conan, or LotR, where magic is rarely used on the behalf of the heroes.
OTOH is Steven Erikson, who says (without naming him as such) that the Hard Magic view reduces magic to the role of technology, and it undermines the very nature of magic in myth-making: the influence of the unexplained and unexplainable upon our world. That we all, to some degree, wield power and authority that we don't fully understand. And its effects go far beyond our expectations. Myths should encourage that sense of wonder. What's more the shamanistic view of magic common in history (as opposed to more alchemical views that were actually early attempts at science) no two practitioners are the same, or work the same. So Hard Magic does not align with anthropology and human experience.
All that tangent has a point in that Erikson came to writing fantasy via Dune. Gardens of the Moon, the 1st Malazan Book of the Fallen, deliberately borrowed elements of Dune's narrative stylings. (Which is why many who have read only traditional fantasy bounce off it so hard.) Also, both were interested in the question, "What is history? How is it formed?" And the influence of events beyond our rational comprehension is a significant part of that.
Does the presence of midichlorians make the force "not magic?" No, the force is very obviously magic. Dune is just as magical as Star Wars, if not more.
"Any technology far advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke)
or, as somebody in the Thor movies said:
"Magic is just science we do not understand yet."
It’s only magic if we assume the laws of physics in a fictional world is the same as ours
Probably a top 3 fave QI. So much is revealed about Herbert's worldview, and therefore so much for us to examine in our own, based on how he handled this topic. Especially at the time he wrote the books. Is there a god in Dune? Yes. Is it God? No. Is there a God in Dune? It does not matter. But in not mattering, it becomes the most consequential of questions. Who do we answer to? Do the omnipotent still answer for their actions? To whom? Fascinating questions.
An excellent video essay. I have learned something today thanks to you, and this is not something that happens every day to me.
"MAGIC, n. - An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary (1911).
Magick is the application of the knowledge of sacred fractal geometry of space and time cymatic energetics and the relationships of consciousness (at various scales) with the energetic flow or bending of those patterns.
Awesome intro!
Sooo...sort of? Great discusion on preternatural! I learned a lot:) 💚🤘🏽
Correction, Quantum Mechanics and Classical Physics do indeed work together, in fact classical physics is shown to be a approximation of qm, its General Relativity that contradicts QM.
I can't wait to see this movie Dune.🌎💯❤🤯👍
If any other channel posts stuff like this, I would pass by. Scroll on.
I don't scroll past these 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
„It’s a Kind of Magic.“
Conor MacLeod
A small moment about magic and the perception of it is presented in Doomsday Clock from DC. At one point, just about every character you can think of in the DC universe just manipulated into a confrontation with Dr Manhattan from the Watchmen universe
Some of the most powerful magic users in the DC universe attempt to take him on. Zatanna, John Constantine, Ertrigan, Dr Fate. They attempt to use magic on him, and he examines the energies and changes to reality that they are levying against him. He comments that what they think is magic is actually something akin to leftover, discarded code in the program that is the universe.
He then takes what they throw at him and casually shapes it into his own version of a "spell", and throws it back at them.
Can I recommend Jack Vance's Dying Earth series for it's view on technomagic that deeply influenced Dungeons and Dragons
Anyone else think that the spice allows its users to transcend their experience of dimensionality? So, spice rewires the brain to understand and experience the 4th dimension (time) and thus be able to “look into the past or future” (prescience).
I never thought there was magic in Dune, as much as Humans who are psychologically WAY more advanced than us.
The same way we are now a lot smarter than say, someone in the Middle Ages, humanity in Dune has had 10,000 years to continue developping. And the Butlerian Jihad accelerated this exponentially.
And they can do things which we would nowadays consider "prescience" or "telepathy" or "vision".