Why Paul is Not the Hero of Dune
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- Hey, guys, it’s Quinn’s Ideas here and it’s time for another quick discussion video on the Dune Saga. *****SPOILERs Video is for deep desert dwellers ONLY! I realize that I say a bunch on this channel that Paul Atreides is not the hero of the Dune saga. I've given specific reasons why I believe this is the case throughout several of my videos but I've never done a dedicated video addressing It. And since I often see questions and contentions regarding this idea I thought I would respond and elaborate here. At this point, after rereading the saga many times now I am pretty convinced that this is the way that Frank Herbert intended the character to be viewed within the context of the whole series. As always if you're interested in learning more about the Dune series please subscribe, and definitely check out the Dune playlist on the front of this channel!
To start off we have to look at what Frank Herbert had to say about his own series. To quote Herbert "I wrote the dune saga because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with the warning label 'may be dangerous to your health.'" Herbert is definitely referring to his character Paul Atreides. In the book, Dune Paul is able to become the leader of the Fremen. And unseat the emperor of the Known Universe. Upon first look, Dune appears to follow the classic Hero’s Journey Archetype but by examining the book further and by diving into the further books in the series the truth becomes clearer. In the subtext of Dune, hidden beneath the main plot involving the reascension of house Atreides is something far darker than people who are casually aware of Dune may not realize. To understand this we must first take a look at the way in which Paul is able to rise amongst the Fremen and eventually become their Messiah.
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“All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible.” -Frank Herbert
I totally agree!
I studied psychology and even had a few lectures on power, but it hadn't come up
Its worse than that. Corruption is the price someone pays for power. If someone isn't corrupt then they won't gain the power, because they won't be able to pay off their key supporters that they need for that power, and will be replaced by someone who will.
Corruption begets power, without being corrupt, the leader will not have the power, and thus will be replaced by someone who is willing to be corrupt.
Jorge Emrys Landivar have you read “The Dictator’s Handbook?” Based on your reply I would bet you’d like that book
@@LibeRevolution cgp grey made an excellent video summarising the book titled "rules for rulers", I highly recommend it
spinakker I believe that’s the subtitle of the book I mentioned
Every time someone says Dune is a Star Wars ripoff, a braincell dies.
That thing they tried to do with Luke Skywalker in TLJ is pure Dune. But Luke was always intended to be a straightforward hero, not a Paul Atreides.
El-ahrairah
The classic era? Yes
The current Disney era? Hell F’n no.
@El-ahrairah well, in all fairness thats like saying Bach was vastly superior to Beethoven. Art is subjective, as many feel modern SW is atrocious.
Why bother saying something like this? It's just a strawman; building up a monster to play to a willing crowd. You can't trade Likes for anything in the real world...
@El-ahrairah SW movies (originals) are better than Dune movie, but not the actual stories, IMO.
Dune movie is itself special, but in an entirely different way to the SW movies
He is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy.
TheBaconWizard 😂😂👍
Lucky bastard.
You'r all individuals!
What a crossover that would be!🤣
For the Freemen he is
Paul is human, and young. I wasn't terribly smart or made great decisions at 15. How many of us did? Besides, Herbert wrote the series to show that even the most heroic of leaders should come with warning labels. To make Paul untouchably heroic and virtuous would detract from his richness as a character.
very well said 👏
@@starlight1735 thank you.
He was a mentat...i think he was pretty smart
@@bloodangel19 you're most likely right, but smart like a Mental may not always be the smart required at the moment. Look at what happened to Thufir, the greatest Mentat of his or maybe any other time...
Paul is also very smart
It seems that the movie will be quite accurate, Timothée Chalamet said that “The immediately appealing thing about Paul was the fact that in a story of such detail and scale and world-building, the protagonist is on an ANTI-HERO’S-JOURNEY of sorts,”
This just shows you this book is about some thing other, than being “good”.
@@aineodubhthaigh2055 From the very first pages Leto said to Paul they'd need desert power. That was a recurring theme throughout the first half of the book. Leto, then Paul had every intention of enlisting the Fremen as soldiers to help fight the Harkonnen. Duncan was sent in advance to evaluate their numbers and capabilities. Instead of Leto taking the House renegade, he brought his war with the Harkonnen to Dune in hopes the Fremen would fight with him. I don't see how much good could have come from either Leto I or Paul. They thought of the Fremen as tools of war. Nothing more.
I think he might be more of a ANTI-VILLAIN's journey, if there is such a thing. He unwillingly going on a villain's journey, in order to prevent it ever happening again. More so his son is an Anti-Villain. An Anti-Hero is reluctantly doing the right thing. An Anti-Villain is reluctantly doing the evil thing.
@@jimclark2824 the Fremen were already enemies of the Harkonnen, and Paul fulfilled their prophecies. They saw him as a tool to give them power, nothing more. They used a 14-year-old
@@customsongmaker You're absolutely right. They used each other. I was specifically addressing the anti-hero comment about Paul. Nothing good was going to come from the Atredies bringing their war to Arrakis. Paul nor the Duke had any idea the Fremen were expecting a messiah. They expected an oppressed indigenous population that may find life under Atredies rule better than Harkonnen, and would be willing to enlist in the fight. Nothing about the actions of the Atredies screams hero, just men repeating the mistakes of history. This time though, it blew up in everyone's faces...
*"We don't need another hero."*
Reverand Mother Tina Turner (8015 BG)
"The Kwisatz Haderach....Will never come,......nice........and easy............." Reverand Mother Turner
this. lol
This is the funniest thing I've read all week!
Goldeneye should be really easy to adapt.
@@paulzapodeanu9407 Again?!
Paul was a victim, as much as father, as much as his son.
The villain of Dune was the Bene Gesserit order and it's idea of "perfecting" humanity under their own rule/guidance. The Bene Gesserit manipulated mankind on scales large and small in order to create their perfect being that would be under their control, instead of letting humanity grow and evolve on its own. This is what set humanity onto the Golden Path, as that was the only way out of its doom through stagnation.
Paul was a human manipulated into a corner where his only choices were death or Jihad, and yet by the time he faces this choice, he also realized that even his death would lead to Jihad, so he accepted that path in an effort to avert what he saw.
Unfortunately when he accepted that path he also came to realize that Jihad was just the first step on the Golden Path, and that the new gift of prescience he had received had shown him that he had no choices left, that he was locked into a future he did not want and could not change and he was not strong enough to bear the burden of becoming godking tyrant.
Leto II was a preborn and was so already awakened into the long view of humanity from beginning, rather than trying to adopt such a mindset as an adult as was done by his father and by all the Bene Gesserit before him. They all had simple minds and short term goals, as befits their relatively simple and short term lives, and tried to use their abilities and histories of conciousness as a tool in which to shape their ultimately short term goals, which is why their path led to stagnation because they accepted prescience and took the safe paths to their goal, which only leads to oblivion.
For Leto II, his was only the longview, and so he was able to accept the burden for the ultimate goal, because his time ahead of him was no greater than the time behind him. It wasn't just that he had access to the memories of past lives. Those WERE his memories. He was Methuselah born.
This also allowed him to give his sister the greateat gift he could give, by helping her lock away memory of him and allow her to mature as a human, with the threat of possession ended with that mental trick of forgetting and of the memory of their mother as a bulwark, protecting her daughter from the rest of maelstrom of last lives. Ghani grew up as a human woman, lived as a human woman, and died as a human woman. For this, Leto II accepted his burden. This is something Paul did NOT have. Paul was a single person, while Leto II and Ghanima saw the other as part of themselves. To bring it back to Book 1, Leto II is the paw chewed off and left behind, that the wolf, his sister, his other, may escape. The idea of the test being that an animal tries to escape the threat while the human lies in wait to eliminate the threat to the species is mistaken. The "animal" escapes into the freedom of endless possibilities, as we the result of the Golden Path, while the "human" stayed in the trap to accomplish their goal, locking them into that path forever, as was the danger of prescience.
The Jihad, the ascendancy of GodKing Leto II the Tyrant, were to drive out of humanity the temptation of control. By breeding into humanity the gene to hide them from prescience, he prevented potential "guidance" from any other entity in the future, and through his crushing control he instilled in humanity a desire to never accede to control again. Through these two actions did he finally set humanity free, and based on the uniqueness of his birth, he was the ONLY one capable of doing so.
Perfectly said. I hope Quinn reads it and gets back to you.
Perfectly pointed... The golden path is the path to restore the mystery to humanity, and end the narrowing of possibilities inherited by a mechanical view of the universe... The thinking machine alike had dominated mankind even after the Buttlerian Jihad
Beautifully stated.
Yup
Not exactly because without the Kwisatz Haderach mankind would not have found the Golden Path or be forced to evolve beyond prescience. Also it would not have led to the ultimate joining of thinking machine and man had their machinations not led to the Kwisatz Haderach.
Paul still is the hero just not as obviously. While Paul doesn't himself specifically perform all the functions of the Golden Path, because of the myriad pathways of the future, my feeling is he simply found one where the Golden Path would be accomplished but he would not need to bear the burden himself and in the end would end up with the life he truly desired.
With respect, Paul knew he needed to be THE ULTIMATE VILLAIN to save humanity from itself. He could not be. His son followed through with being the villain humanity needed where his father, Paul, could not.
This.
despite leto ll an advanced human due to the lives in him, he almost succumbs to his desire and abandon the Golden path for that Tileilaxu girl.
it shows that a normal human with powers given to him/her could not withstand the procedure, hence why paul fled into the desert to die but didnt.
He was evil enough to destroy thousands of innocent worlds in his jihad but when it came to the horrific consequences and eternal torment of the transformation, he failed to accept the burden of the golden path. In a way one could argue that this fact alone makes him much MORE EVIL than Leto.
@@Liaison_Verequiem Well, she was designed specifically to make him fall for her...she was everything Leto longed for but was forever denied.
Paul allowed the visions to overwhelm him and stunt his growth as a person. His own indecision is his downfall. He could not fully live in the here now and appreciate his own life. Chani was giving birth and he knew she was going to die but couldn’t even be there for her in her last moments cause he already experienced it due to prescience. He was sleepwalking in his own life, he couldn’t even be bothered to raise his own kids, surely he foresaw Alia as the worst possible person to raise them. So I would say he was probably his own villain more than anyone else’s.
To be honest, I'm not sure if I could be at my wife's deathbed, if I had already seen it a thousand times in prescient dreams. It would be harrowing. Particularly if knew I had to ride a giant sandworm the same day, and I could well die.
That's quite likely due to the fact that Paul was not meant to be the QH, he was a generation early and as a result likely lacked the level of self control and resolve which true prescience required. Jessica may have trained him to prepare him but she merely wanted her son to survive the Gom Jabar which she knew would occur, she had no intention of him actually becoming QH and as such he was never prepared properly for such abilities.
Leto II got the advantage of growing into already existent abilities and looking to a father whose shortcomings he could already perceive. He was literally born for the role, Paul was *always* the interloper.
@@Veklim But Frank Herbert doesn't tell us that nor really suggests it therefore it's just speculation at best and "filling in blanks of the book to fit what you think" (like people always do with fictional novels/movies) at worst.
@@vincer9960 how do you figure? the reverend mother chided jessica for birthing a son.
Pauls detachment makes alot of sense what would a mortal do but buckle and waver when becoming a thing that is here and everywhere. how could you really know what the now is. paul is an example of the tragedy of becoming a hero turned demigod without any guidance.
Pauls presence had chained him down
i think the key take away is that there is no hero in the world of Dune, everybody has their own motivation that are self serving. The Fremen takes advantage of Paul as much as he does of them.
Exactly, everyone has plans within plans.
Yeah that's why I hate it whenever people claim the freman are just this noble do no wrong society that needs to be saved by Paul. Its like they were going to murder him and his mother on sight untill they realized they could use them. Paul and Jessica's whole relationship with the Freman are based on mutual use and manipulation on both sides. Herbert goes out of his way to show how hardcore Freman society is. Shit they tell blind people to go kill themselves and are religious zealots.
Yes.
If you read any commentary on Frank Herbert, this is nothing new. Paul was written on purpose as a warning against messianic figures.
No, Paul realized the spice must flow and in order for it to flow, he had to stabilize Fremen society by becoming their (spiritual) leader. In that way, he's sort of the hero. He's saving so many planets that rely on imports.
Interestingly, Herbert *did* sort of label Paul as a "hero", while at the same time clearly indicating that he was not to be the hero of the story. When Liet Kynes is dying out on the desert...he holds a "discussion" with his long dead father. The one shocking idea that is trotted out is that the worst disaster that could happen to the Fremen would be for them to wind up "...in the hands of a hero..." In his last moments before the spice blow, Kynes realizes that he has arranged for the Fremen to give sanctuary to Paul...and begins to see where this may well lead.
.
While not the hero of the book...the Fremen would quickly come to see Paul as one in the sense that Kynes feared. Paul survives his many combat encounters in the company of the Fremen not simply because of his training...but because he ultimately has the greatest bodyguards in the known universe. But their loyalty is not simply because of the "Legend..." Paul mentions that he and Stilgar have saved each other's lives a number of times... Paul will have saved other Fremen as well and this will have reinforced the bond. As time passes, it becomes harder for him to risk his life because his bodyguards are fanatically proactive in their mission to protect him.
.
Being a genuine "hero" to the tribes only makes Paul more dangerous if the path that he lays out is not in the interest of the Fremen. Risking his life is a good investment. The Atreides have a reputation for sincerely putting it on the line for others...as risking the Duke and his heir to rescue the spice miners showed... This totally turned around Liet Kynes' attitude...and was doubtless related in many quarters. The fact that this was not done cynically...but sincerely...out of a sense of genuine decency...doesn't change the fact that it just greases the path of the Fremen to the destruction of their culture.
.
The Baron Harkonnen may have been brilliant, but he was wrong about Feyd being able to replace his brother and thereby gain the loyalty of the Fremen. In some ways he was like Paul... Very intelligent, highly trained, hell on wheels in combat... but unlike Paul, who masters his fear...Feyd is nearly fearless. The people in the cities might buy into him, but never the Fremen. Sincerely risking his life to save Fremen not in his nature...and even if he held his violent nature in check, his arrogance would assure that he would never get to first base with the tribesmen in the desert and would never survive if he wound up among them there. Yankee Papa
I am 64 now. I read Dune for the first time when I was 14. Several times since. I have even read the stuff his Boy wrote after the Elder passed. The series has been something that I have thought about a lot over the years. Your critique was accurate and insightful. Well said, thank you for sharing. Sir.
Paul is an anti-hero.
Or even better he’s a living definition of “you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
He’s a protagonist because we sympathize with him over what happened to him and his family. But in the end he just takes the wrong turn and he tries to go back or at least set a better course.
The thing is there is not even a right or wrong turn. It’s just humanity at its best and worst. Arguably he becomes one of the most powerful single beings in the universe but once he attains his power he is trapped by it and unable to change much of the course that has already been set- no matter what he does. He can only pick lesser evils at best.
I think Chalamet did say Paul is in a journey towards an anti-hero in the Vanity Fair article
"But in the end he just takes the wrong turn and he tries to go back or at least set a better course.
"
The problem is there is no right turn for him to take. He's paralyzed because he can't find a way out of his entrapment of prescience, which stands for ultimate power. That's one aspect of the story people keep missing. Power is a trap.
I-
I guess a better word would be bad turn.
@@BLooDCoMPleX exactly this, hence Leto II's attempt to wipe it out entirely. Paul chose the lesser of the two evils he could see, but his descendant sees even that as a failed attempt to assume power mankind isn't meant to have. His knowledge and the Bene Gesserit meddling are both destructive forces, as is mankind on the whole when we seek to subsume and crush all into something under our control.
The irony, of course, is that Leto uses oppression and totalitarianism just as Paul did to try and save humanity from itself.
"Mankind united with infinitely greater purpose in pursuit of war than he ever did in pursuit of peace." -Father, Equilibrium
WHY HAVEN'T YOU RECEIVED AN AUDIOBOOK CONTRACT YET?
Honestly, you can hear the passion you have for the series when you read it. I'd rather listen to you read this series over any other narration I've heard.
Agreed, he could read the dictionary and make it entertaining
Personally, I thought the Audible Scott Brick and Simon Vance narrations were excellent.
Yes, and do a tag-team with ComicBookGirl19!
You have to audition if you are not well known.
Definitely would give Acott Brick a Run for his money.
I just found your videos after watching the Villenueve movie, and really enjoy them. I also love the underlying theme of Dune: don't blindly follow leaders. This fits right in with one of own rules: never idolize another person, they're just another human at the end of the day.
On the other hand, this is more a case of needing to follow leaders despite their flaws, when they are fundamentally wiser or on the right path, even if you abhor them... That applies more to Leto II than his father though.
But even Paul was doing the best he could using his prescience. So from the point where he started to have a decent grasp of his visions, he was as worth following as one could be.
At most one might say that he lacked creativity. But in a way that was a side-effect of the time he was born in.
And that’s what makes the story compelling. I recall reading the books as a young man and feeling discomfort as the story evolved. Brilliant.Thanks!
Paul had power and charisma, but he only knew that no one close to him was giving him advice that would lead to a better world. The sisters would make humans into slaves for tyrants until they died out. The Fremen would lead to a Jihad to kill all humanity, or the Golden Path, thousands of years of torture. The status quo leading back to computer subjugated universe. All options lead to misery, and ultimately Paul fails to choose any of them, thinking to deny all factions their goals. Paul is not a failure, but rather a tragic hero character. Never to know peace, and ultimately to be thrown down by the masses who worship him for not making a choice. This is why Leto II seems like such a great champion. He inspires the Jihad. He inspires the new faith, the fish speakers. He converts Arrakis into a lush world as a way to prove his power and control access to spice. So he does still follow a Hero arc, just not the one of a Champion. In many ways, you could call Dune the Hamlet of space, only Hamlet lives in the end and becomes an incompetent king :)
The Sisters want Humans as slaves for themselves as they know better the consequences that the rest of us. The fundamental question for religion in an era of Jihad. On the Fremen Jihad that had already happened before Leto's time as ruler. I wonder how Herbert would have changed this if he was writing today. Its one thing to write about Jihad and another to live through it, albeit in a very weak form. The question of motivations for Jihadees might be given more prominence and thought today.
Tragic Hero is how I sort of thought of Paul. A very good take.
@@nahtesalinas1917 I can see your argument, but I have to disagree. Paul is much more flawed than Jesus as a person and also as a basis for a belief system. Christianity did plenty of Jihads (Crusades in our terminology), but none were launched by Jesus's words directly. Justification can be found, but mostly in the texts attached not the gospels themselves. Its also hard to fully understand what this essentially jewish sect thought let alone how it evolved through the next 150 to 250 years as an awful lot of written sources were purged by Christianity as it gained Political power within the Roman Empire. Arnaud Amaury's famous quote arising from the massacre of Beziers in 1209 during the Cathars Crusade(s) in southern France (Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them. For the Lord knows who are His.) sums up everything wrong with religions in power for me.
Failure may be a strong word but Paul knew of the Golden Path, yet didn't have the courage to take it. When he talks to Leto II in the desert he says as much.
Even Leto Ii and his so called golden path are morally highly questionable! Leto is actually an awful person...
*Insert michael slapping the table and yelling thank you gif*
I always felt like love was the core of the story. Paul was born from Jessica's love for Leto, in turn, making the future Bene Gesserit just about fear it. After Chani's death he looses his vision and goes to the desert. One of my FAVORITE scenes is when Leto II and Ghanima let Paul and Chani talk to each other. Leto II's love for Hwi was what allowed Sionna's rebellion to succeed. I could just be seeing things but, to me, the power of love seemed extremely important. I feel like it was easier for Leto II to take on the mantle of the Golden Path because he wasn't bound by a love like Paul was and it was a love like that that ended his rule. That's just my opinion.
I’m gonna go reread these books, because I remember sympathizing with Paul and detesting Leto II. Paul, at the end of it all, retained his humanity, literally and figuratively. Leto loses his under the guise of knowing what's best for humanity. I never bought that he made the right decision. The first three books were thematically focused on the dangers of absolute power and deification, and at the third book's conclusion that is precisely the mantle Leto assumes, believing his father simply didn't look far enough ahead, or couldn't make the sacrifices necessary. I don't believe that's the mode of thinking being encouraged here, amid all the prose regarding the shackles of prescience and the burdens of control.
Again, I'm gonna have to reread the books, but after looking through the Children of Dune again, I'm not yet sure it's a coincidence that Leto comes off as an arrogant know-it-all. His path is indeed a sacrifice, but it seems the books frequently ask the reader to carefully examine what has been lost for what has been gained - as embodied by the terraforming of Arrakis and the death of the sietch, or the resurrection of House Atreides at the price of war.
My feeling was that the Bene Gesserit were the true "villains" of the Dune universe (if any such claim could even be made), and that while Leto beat them at their game, Paul was the one who kicked over the board and refused to play.
You're not wrong about Paul. He had simply already suffered too much personally to go through with the Golden Path. Leto was born into prescience, and had experienced the memories of human suffering on a mass scale, but not personally as his own experience. Thus, he weighed all human suffering upon scales of logic, and determines that the Golden Path was the only way, and he was the only one who could complete it.
I agree. I don't think Herbert meant for Leto to be a sympathetic hero character that people tend to perceive him as. He is not a complete villain, but he is meant to be disturbing. That despite his supposed altruistic self-sacrifice and tragic end in supposedly saving of humanity, he willfully sacrifices so many for that vision, so certain and self-righteously, using his power like a sledge hammer. That if he is wrong, he is the greatest criminal of all.
Paul at least was unwilling to commit atrocities regardless of the supposed end goal. In other words, Paul as a character, did not believe the end justified the means. Which is why, of the two, I always find Paul the better person, who while he made mistakes and was a flawed person, was still a character trying to find the best solution he could in a bad situation. Even when there wasn't one.
I also agree that the Bene Gesserit, and others, in their attempts to "guide" humanity in the direction they want from the shadows are the ones who are the villains, in that they are what create the set-up for the storm, and never recognize their culpability. I think Herbert was against anyone, in any guise, socially trying to promote that kind of thinking.
I always thought that too many readers took Leto II’s arguments at face value. That he’s “omniscient” is a cop out.
@@someguy3186 I agree. I think there is some value to be had by treating these prescient characters as unreliable narrators. It seems reasonable that ultimately what they see are parts of a whole, and what is possible is often perceived by them as being inevitable.
I agree with this. Honestly- by book 3 I was super pissed at Paul. He wasn't upset about the Jihad- just that his name was attached to it. He took power, avenged his dad but then made a giant mess, ditched his family and the Empire... and as "the Preacher" he spent his final years ranting about how great Muad'dib was. He liked being a charismatic freman. But he didn't want the burden of being Emperor. He was too cowardy to face his family again. Admittedly he was in a bad situation.... but he was so selfish and left everyone else with a horrible empire.
Leto II seemed like he wanted to do good- even though he was also a nutjob so detached from humanity and its hard to say if what he did was necessary or if we just have to take his word on it.
Leto was never an "individual", he always had the memories of his ancestors awakened in him. This perhaps made it easier for him to choose the Golden Path. Paul, who had lived a significant apart of his developmental years as an "individual", having only to content with his own thoughts, just wasn't capable of doing what Leto did.
Chris Preston Paul also did not have Liet Keynes memories. I think Leto II was the only possible God Emperor, and is why Paul chose the path he took, because it wouldn't have worked as good for him to take the path.
Paul also did not know of the ability to extend his life in the manner Leto II did. In order to guide humanity along the Golden Path, you needed prescience and millenium spanning life. Paul only had the former, though we are never told why he couldn't realize the latter.
@@tobyvision Paul did know about the life extension option. He just couldn't see why he was seeing the Golden Path. He either didn't have the ability to see thousands of years into the future, or he was too horrified by seeing the path and so couldn't follow it through to the end to see that this was one of the few options for saving humanity as a whole.
@@Leto2ndAtreides I know that Paul saw a possibility of him living longer, but I'm not sure we are ever told that he knew the method. Even Leto II's first moment with the sandtrout appears to be an accident as far as I can tell. And to my knowledge Paul never reached the level of spice saturation that Leto II did.
It's certainly conceivable that Paul knew the method. I just don't remember ever reading it. And in either case, we know Paul strays from the path beforehand anyway.
I've always liked the fact that moving humanity onto the golden path was a job too big for even one superhuman. Paul set up the conditions in which Leto II could arise.
@@tobyvision He knew, at end of third book he and leto discuss it. To become not human, paul knew what leto had done when he saw him.
“Absolute power does not corrupt absolutely, absolute power attracts the corruptible.”
Frank Herbert
Paul, Alia and Leto II begin as as heroic character types but for a variety of reasons commit great evils in their assent to and assumption of power. This seems to be one of the many reoccurring themes of Herbert's works.
So they start out good, and end up becoming bad by the stories end?
Granted we only have his word for it - but Leto II's prescience told him that his cruel steps were necessary for human survival; not sure I would call it corruption. Now Paul and to a lesser extent Ghanima (maybe) also see this necessity. Now, if Leto II's prescience is the corruption and this is all a Herbert doing an especially impressive mind fark.
Paul didn't really intentionally create evil, he just wrongly thought it would be good to bring rain to Arakis. And Leto II is the hero of the saga.
I agree that corrupt evil or bad are not the best descriptions of Paul, Alia or Leto II. Paul was initially driven by survival for himself and his mother. Alia’s downfall was her inability to control her other memories. Leto II did what he felt was required to insure the survival of the human race. I was just trying to place a slightly different angle to Quinn’s statement that Paul was not the hero of Dune.
The quote I gave is often attributed to Frank Herbert and is the way I remembered it to be, but a google search did not show which book it was in. I did find this passage from Chapterhouse Dune.
“Murbella’s Other Memory ramblings haunted him now even though he recognized basic Bene Gesserit teachings in them. Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. This is the danger of entrenched bureaucracy to its subject population. Even spoils systems are preferable because levels of tolerance are lower and the corrupt can be thrown out periodically. Entrenched bureaucracy seldom can be touched short of violence. Beware when Civil Service and Military join hands!”
For context this is part of one of the last Duncan’s introspections. It occurs while Duncan is adjusting to Murbella’s new status as a Reverend Mother. He is in the process of realizing the nature of the Honored Matre’s and Darwi Odrades plan to defeat them.
The key that unlocks Herbert's message with the Dune series is that the Bene Gesserit are essentially female Jesuits...esuits are still extremely active in the world, incl the present pope. They, along with their cohorts in banking, law enforcement, politics and military, topple and appoint leaders, create trafficking lines, and generally add to human misery - all for their goal of a reduced population and eventual degeneration of human individuality.
the entire second book is dedicated to destroying the myth of the hero set up in the 1st book.... how is that not clear?
Not everyone read the second book?
@@elirien4264 exactly. People don’t read the second book.
I haven't read the second book, but I thought it was clear in the first one as well? He has several scenes where he is terrified of himself and the Jihad he keeps seeing, burning down everything, he rejects his status as the Kwisatz Haderach and considers himself to be an abomination.
And yet at the end, he becomes the monster he feared that he would become. Too much harshness, too much suffering, too many possible mistakes and in the end he only had a human mind to cope with it.
@@gamer2101 I tried. I found it to be a bit of a slog, but I'm willing to try again.
@@elirien4264 its slow at start, only during that later half is great, hell somehow i cried for paul even tho he was the anti hero of worst kind.
Bro, your videos are so enlightening and well made. I love the Dune lore after the new movie came out, and am trying to learn more. Your videos help with that immensely. Thank you!
Think of Paul as Dune’s Vito Corleone
great way to put it there
I will steal this quote to impress my friends with my supposed cleverness! You nailed it!
And here's another clue for you all: the walrus was Paul.
@@migangelmart Shiiiiit! I am deceased! These comments keep bringing it!
"Look how they massacred those Worms."
In my opinion, Paul was not a hero but a victim. And not a victim of the Bene Gesserit, but of the humanity that allowed the creation of thinking machines. Without thinking machines taking over humanity; there would not have been the Butlerian Jihad, and all of the problems that came from it.
This is a very interesting take, well said.
The thinking machines were never the real problem. It was human nature with its religious stupidity, and tendency towards self indulgent self destruction, that was the problem.
The only problem with the thinking machines in the Dune universe is that they are as dumb as their creators.
Seriously, who in their right mind would inflict human like emotion and the baggage of our evolutionary past onto AI to the point that they may as well be human?
Bene Gesserit did everything wrong
Only just discovered your channel, but you provide very intelligent and insightful analysis, and (and, as an audiobook narrator, I don't say this lightly), you have an excellent narrative voice for the passages you read from the books! Thank you!
Right on. Great analysis. I’ve read the series many times and you still came up with some connections I hadn’t considered, or weighted heavily enough. Thanks and up the good work!
Paul ends up being a victim of the massive forces at work. He was a catalyst for those forces but he could never truly control them. Much like how a person can cause an avalanche but they have no control over its destructive power. Paul starts the jihad and builds a massive empire but it didn't take long for things to roll out of control and for various factions to do things in the name of their messiah. Dune deals a lot with the paradoxical nature of power. The more power someone has, the more they are trapped by their own power.
That concept is also mirrored in how the series deal with the concept of prescience. The more prescient someone is, the less they are able to actually change the future. Because when they predict the future, they're also predicting their own effect on the future. So they essentially know what choices they have to make before they make it.
I don't think Paul or Leto were that limited by their ability to see the future. But they were limited some by the physical existence and identity of a human... A human whose power isn't innate, and is instead granted as a byproduct of human power structures.
And then Leto had to choose the direction of humanity's future, and he needed the control necessary to bring about the change he foresaw... Unfortunate though it was. But then, he was trying to reshape humanity to supersede one of its fundamental failings.
It's too bad Frank Herbert was anti-technology or the future he envisioned might have been brighter.
A very well-put, delivered argument.
I agree with you: Paul is definitely not the hero of Dune. His choices brought about the deaths of untold billions.
If there is a hero in the story, it's probably Leto II. He chose to become a tyrant, knowing he would be an abomination (by being taken over by the memory-personality of an ancient Egyptian king/despot). He knew he would be hated by history; he knew that and his Golden Path had to be hated in order to force people to go in to the Scattering. But he made his decision in order to save humanity from extinction by machines.
In my younger years I thought the Bene Gesserit were heroic: but they seem as authoritarian and totalitarian as the God Emperor. It's just that their methods are more subtle, and you don't have to kill those that you don't allow to be born in the first place...
In all, the Dune series is not a story about heroes. Or the common man. It's really about ideas, not people.
@mcbreaghe Authoritarian and totalitarian, while often u desired by others, doesn't necessarily mean someone's "evil" or "not a hero" or "the bad guy." Some fathers and mothers are very authoritarian because they're doing what'a best (or what they think is best) for their children and, often, that authoritative style of leadership can results in a much better end-result.
Imagine the world was doomed with everyone willing to kill eachother until there was no one remaining and it took an authoritative leader or "ruler" to change that and save the world. Imagine you have a bunch of people who are easily lead down an evil path to murder, robbery, selfishness, destruction, materialism, consumerism, etc. due to mass society & culture and it takes an authoritative leader to finally say enough is enough and change society and it's people into one that values ethics, culture, values, love, kindness, peace, etc.
Someone can be authoritative and be bad or good. Someone can be un-authoritative and be bad or good.
To think authoritative automatically means the person must be bad or evil sounds like mainstream media conditioning (they love to label any country's leader / government that doesn't bow down to us, America, and we therefore want to destroy as authoritarian or "a dictator" [even though we, America, actually directly support approximately 73% of the world's dictators but they'll never tell you that part]).
@mcbreaghe By abomination I meant that he was possessed by an inner voice, allowing it happen to remain sane. Rather than taming the voices, he allows one single voice to take over, which then tames the other voices. The Fremen would have considered him a demon. He certainly escaped Alia's fate, but would have failed the possession tests.
@@vincer9960 You have a point regarding "authoritarian", but the word totalitarian means overarching control over every aspect of life. From the dictionary: "relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state."
It's as bad as it gets, if you have been brought up in a Western liberal tradition. It's slavery imposed by the state. The state literally owns you.
And since authoritarianism is the precursor to totalitarianism, it is widely (and rightly) suspect in Western culture.
One of Herbert's (many) preoccupations was with the use and abuse of power.
Leto II, God Emperor of Dune was subjectively worse than the Honoured Matres who came after him in almost all respects.
He caused and created the suffering and degredation of untold trillions. He ordered the death of billions. Effective slavery, lack of growth. Murders that he personally committed.
Where this takes a turn is in the goal. Honoured Matre goals are purely selfish, they are the epitome of selfish and petty desires, while Leto II was not, he was the epitome of personal sacrifice, both in legacy, and the anguish that he suffered himself as he ordered atrocity after atrocity.
I don't think we can really discuss government and authority in Dune without at least recognising this part of it
@@danielbegg5914 I don't understand how you can say Leto II was "objectively worse" when you also say that he sacrificed himself. He sacrificed himself, where Paul did not, for a greater purpose: to ensure that all humanity would not be exterminated. I can't think of a greater goal for any leader.
The cost of saving the entire human race (and thus untold trillions of people in to the very distant future), was the deaths of untold billions and the deliberate stagnation of society for 3.5K years.
Your dissections of the Dune saga are some of the best content i've been fortunate to find on UA-cam. Whenever i get done reading a Dune novel, my next move is to pull up your channel and listen to your analysis to gain a better appreciation of this work of literature. I have a better appreciation of this saga and the incredible accomplishment it represents thanks to videos like these. Thank you for your work
I just discovered your channel. You do an amazing job and have a great voice. I can’t wait to go through all of your videos after I read the saga. I picked up book 1 today. I’ve read sci-fi for 35 years and somehow skipped over the dune saga. You sold me dude. Keep up the great videos.
He is hero of first book. Whole sagas hero is duncan idaho .....
"Oh my god, you killed Duncan! YOU BASTARDS!!!"
It's a strong contender, but the God Emperor is the key figure
I think it's more complicated than that. Ib think the hero is humanity. The whole series is based on the fact that these individuals couldn't do it alone without being set up by their predecessors. Without grownth , memory and guisance of thoes who came before we fail. Look at the Honored Matres. They forgot where they came from and lost their other memory when they were unable to undergo the spice agony and became wicked and self serving while the Benegeserate were always about the end goal of bettering the human race. Yes they were self serving when it came to the sisterhood... but to an ultimate goal of self betterment. So whosbthe hero? The one he set the hero on that path and forsaw his actions? Is it the fist Duncan? The Last? One of the Duncan's in the middle? Or all as a whole.
*are duncans
If you take it a step further its not Duncan. Its the fusion of Duncan and Erasmus. So erasmus is equally a hero as well.
Having read all the Dune books 3 times I have to say, you nailed it. Leto II is the hero. Paul seemed like the hero, but then falls short. Frank Herbert couldn't have made it more clear than in the scene of Leto II's birth. Paul is instantly blind (loses his prescience) when Leto II is born because at that moment it's all Leto II's world (universe).
He didn't say Leto is the hero. Leto might be better than Paul but he has done his slice of horrible shit.
@Benjamin Figgins imprinting is a real thing. So is epigenetics.
I really think hero is not a meaningful concept in Dune. Paul, and to a much greater extent Leto II are not combating an enemy. They are trying to guide humanity though metaphysical traps that would doom the species. I think the most telling story element of Dune is that the only way for humanity to escape the cycle of power and corruption is for us to transcend our humanity.
I was wondering. I haven’t read the book, but watched the movie recently. I grew attached to the Atreides’ characters until right before Duncan died. Paul was talking the doctor about his situation and he mentions he would bargain w/ a political marriage . When the dr pointed out surprised that Paul didn’t have full grasp of his family’s position against the throne, he immediately started talking about how the Fremen’s believe in him and that made me doubt his true intentions. Can’t wait for part 2!
Well, his intentions ARE good. And while he does "exploit" the Fremen....he also does so with good intentions for them as well. He wants to team up and befriend them to take on a common enemy. He cares about them. It's what happens after they team up that leads to Paul being an antihero instead of a hero. But that scene you're referencint is not him with "bad" intentions. It's just him being practical. He knows the Benne Gesseret have installed the entire Fremen religion. So he seeks to exploit their beliefs....but with the intentions of freeing them and himself from the Harkonens and the Emperor. The problem is that he somewhat unintentionally inspires the Fremen to go waaaaaaay to far and creates a genocidal jihad/crusade of Fremen extremists.
Quinn, I am busy trying to watch all your videos. I am glad to see you have a huge following. You work hard for it, and I love what you have to say. Really enjoying the Dune videos and had a lot of fun watching your Star Wars series reviews. Thanks for all you do!
I am subbed to hundreds of channels. I have notifications on for yours. I love all your videos! Seriously, possibly my favorite channel, man. Great stuff.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
The road to hell is paved with liberals.
@@acrovader you mean liberals have good intentions?
So are conservatives like Harkonnen then?
Kos Mara yeah just bad all round
MegaVIDEOPOWER MegaVIDEOPOWER don’t forget republicans, I mean get your shit together am I right?
@@kosmara1901 no, more like corrino
Thank you for the videos you made! I do love your point of view on the Dune Lore and your detailed review on each vivid theme of this great Saga!
This is why Dune is so much deeper than any other story I’ve seen. He gives us perspectives when we dive into all of the issues we face in society.
No idols worthy of worship…
I've always found another interpretation of Paul. He is a hero, a failed human hero but a hero nonetheless. His... predicament, so to speak, is that he's the product of passion and love and not the product of careful breeding, logic, and centuries in the planning. He actually is the proof that tyranny is dangerous, not by his actions, but also by the actions of those that intended to have his persona at their appointed time, to serve their purposes. Namely the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Granted, the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood has its motives explained later in the saga. And it's also "easier" for Leto II and Ghanima to work or build over their father's work and his failures. Paul is also the embodiment of hubris, again not by his actions, but by what he represents for the powers of the Imperium. If Paul came at the designated time, he would be the Missionaria Protectiva's embodiment. And then he would be worshipped as a manufactured God.
i got into dune through the south park episode, googled the premise and became obsessed. I read the first novel in prepartion for a 2020 release of the movie. I know its been pushed, but I love this channel. To me dune is not only one of the best stories told, but a great test of mental aptitude
First time watching your channel, and I love it. The music, narration, brevity, and _feel_ of this content is exactly what I wanted for understanding Dune.
Subbed, liked, commented, and about to watch more.
This is such an accurate interpretation! Frank Herbert was very crafty when he created the characters - Paul so likable and Leto ll so creepy. I first read Dune as a teenager - the older i get - the more I understand & appreciate what a masterpiece it is.
I have loved this series all my life. I read the books in my youth. I saw Dino de Laurentes’ version in the theatre and enjoyed the British miniseries. Each iteration of film has gotten progressively better and Denis’ version is no exception. Everyone familiar with these books has such reverence for them that no one wants to do them a disservice. I am really enjoying your dissection of the story’s array of themes. Thank you
I've decided to start the series from the beginning again, and now I'm thinking more about how much the Bene Geserit influenced Fremen culture to prepare for their plan to unfold, for generations before hand! On the first reading when I was new to Dune, it was easy to forget it because so much of it does seem like prophecy. Like, how DID Paul "just know" the proper way to wear a stillsuit? Was he like, programmed subtly to know the Fremen ways somehow? Or is it coincidence? Like the coincidence when Jessica told Shadout Mapes the knife was "a maker", making her appear to know the secret knowledge of origin of the spice, when she really was just about to say, "a maker of death". Even the Fremen calling Paul "Mahdi" soon after they arrive on Arrakis, doesn't that sound like Muad'Dib? Did the Bene Geserit somehow know about Muad'Dib and influence the Fremen language generations ago?! (I know Mahdi is actually Arabic anyway but idk) I have so many questions
Nice review and perspective. Been so long since I read the first book, now within realizing on in which I'm missing, rereading and acquiring the the next in the saga is a must.
oh man, this video is AMAZING but I have to pause it bc I'm riiight at the end of Dune Messiah, don't wanna get any spoilers! Will come back to your videos after I'm done with the series tho, loved your style, man! ♥️
I read the first book in 7th grade. He's always a hero in my head. As an adult, I think he was one generation too early, and would have been less traumatized by his past lives and future vision, if he had been a Harkonen as the sisterhood intended.
@Quinn I also absolutely agree with your conclusion at the end. I discovered your channel yesterday, seeking an additional Dune fix because the new movie was so dang good.
Not necessarily a Harkonnen but a Haroknnen / Atreides hybrid, with parents who can teach the vision of both sides.
Which... Sounds like a barely believable outcome.
In the end, the Bene Gesserit were also badly lacking in vision. So them controlling a Kwisatz Haderach would likely not have gone well for humanity.
The only advantage would likely have been that the Bene Gesserit would've awakened the messiah myth on all of the planets they infected, so their Kwisatz Haderach would've had more power faster.
Timothée was quoted saying he’s playing an anti hero, I think.
I think saying Paul is the anti hero of dune is just as incorrect as saying he's the hero.
Failed hero seem more fitting to me.
@@komolunanole8697 or perhaps a hero by comparison - Harkonnen, Empire, and Bene Gesserit are arguably worse. They needed to be taken down but it comes at a severe cost. But I believe a failed hero is the better way to describe him. You could even call him a villain in another characters story easily. The ruling dictator responsible for the deaths of millions? Sounds a lot like your average villain... it is just that we saw his origin story first that we mistook him for a hero. In truth, I think the Dune series is just about mimicking real life. In real life, villain music doesn't follow the villains around. Every person has a bit of hero and villain in them.
Dude, just found you and you’re my new favorite channel. Hope the new Dune film brings more attention to you cause you’re really awesome. Subscribed.
your channel rules man. got into it via suggestions on Hyperion which I just finished reading and loved and now you got me excited to start Dune once I'm done with the Hyperion Cantos!
Ironically at the end Paul was not willing to take the way of the Golden Path because he doesn’t want to lose his own humanity. Basically the ultimate sacrifice only Leto could take, fully understanding the cost of it. Paul started a revolution without fully understanding the price that course of events would bring, and when he finally understood it he left, so Leto, took his place almost like a burden, understanding the price, to end what his father started.
So in a twisted way Leto, who is a very tragic figure indeed, was “the hero” of the story, not for his actions but because he understood the horror of his responsability.
The first few books are a classic example of being careful of what you ask for.
I've never read or watched Dune but your videos are really inspiring me to check them out!! Love your work.
These videos are amazing! Great job man. Dune has been my favorite Sci Fi series since i first read them thirty years ago.
Paul is not the hero. He wanted to be, but in the end the best he could achieve was to not become.......The Tyrant.
And Leto II became the Tyrant but ultimately the Hero.
This
@@Albert_C Leto II didn't become the Hero. He intentionally became the villain so there could be a Hero.
@@runefire32 depends on what you see as Kralizec.
@@rickdeckard1075 Not really honestly. The Golden Path ONLY works if he's the villain. If people see that what he's doing is wrong, overthrow him and don't allow that to happen again.
Villains can do heroic or good things and still be villains. Their goals could even be heroic, and the way they go about them villainous.
The Way of Kings is behind you on the bookshelf! So I have to know, are you a fan of the series??
Such a great series.
I'm just starting book 3 of this series. It's incredible. When I started it a lot of pieces of it reminded me of good old Dune :)
I'm grateful of Quinn's Ideas overview of sci-fi books, alot of hard work, time & study shared with us to reap the benefits... thanks mate from across the pond :)
Massive props for clarifying so much so succinctly
I think this is a good video and I consider most of the interpretations to be pretty spot on, but I also think some of the interpretations are a bit harshly presented. Paul is not a bad person, and part of the point of his musings in the second book is to establish that his awareness has grown to a point that it has almost crippled him. Every path seems horrible, he really doesn't know which one he should take. I think to try and simplify that down to him somehow knowing there's a correct one and refusing to take out of selfishness is a very simplistic view of how something like that would work. There's an element of truth to it, but in a way it's as simplistic as the idea that he's the classic white savior hero.
Does he want to become an inhuman abomination and a tyrant for milennia, doing horrible, HORRIBLE things to humanity? No, but again, that certainly doesn't make him a bad person. If anything, his problem is, as Leto puts it, that he can't really judge between evils. He's arguably too good of a person to be willing to spend milennia murdering and oppressing.
I'm not saying this makes him the hero. It doesn't. Part of the core of dune is the idea that there are no heroes in the classic sense, and if we wanted to push it onto the series, then it would be some mixture of Leto and Duncan, but to call Leto a hero is almost as hard as it is to call Paul a hero. Leto spends most of his existence as potentially the worst villain humanity has ever experienced. We're just told it's all for the greater good. Possibly true in the context of the story, but to say it makes him a hero seems a bit off.
exactly 👏
Hmm I remember Paul arguing with Leto II at the end of book 3 and trying to convince him not to go down the golden path... so I saw it more as he just had a different view about what should happen rather than he couldn’t do what he knew needed to be done. Is my memory incorrect?
Just came across your channel...i love you reading parts of the book!!! You should be hired by audible! I have never read Dune but want too..it seems so overwhelming so having you explain parts really helps. Awesome channel!
Thank you Quinn, I am so glad I found you on youtube. Your channel is wonderful.
Paul is not the hero of the whole saga but for people who have only read the first book people would likely think he is the hero.
Especially people who only watched David Lynch's Dune.
Divyesh Patel do you like Stormlight?
Everyone's a hero of their own story, and the first book is a story about Paul.
The David Lynch Film never happened in my eyes and yes I do Szeth.
@Benjamin Figgins the japanese would of never stopped but for the shock of the atomic wepons we could still be fighting them we can only second guess the dropping of the atomic wepons but to the people who did it you have to understand the horrors of fighting the japanese fighters to extintion on every scrap of land in between us to japan and the honor system that prevented the leaders from surrendering even thou they knew they had lost having lost there navy and air forces. so in short remeber second guessing makes you right every single timee
"Don't blindly follow the leader" that is never more truthful than today
i don't get it, he just wanted to make Arrakis great again
@@Merrick didnt you watch the video and whole point of Herbert statement?
Tell me about. Look what 'hope' and 'change' did.
@@mr.lonewolf8199 Reread that
@@acrovader A Jihad spread like the plague. Or a plague spread like a jihad...
I can't remember, I keep getting Dune and real life mixed up
Nicely done! I'm just starting Dune Messiah so it's nice to hear you pronouncing names as there often more than possibilities at pronuncuation.
Like what? It's a pathetic excuse for getting it wrong. It's bad enough that Brian and Kevin make shit up. Professional YT "explainers" don't need to jump on the same bandwagon.
omg! i saw you in a thumbnail for another of your videos and thought it was Mos Def. there is certainly a resemblance. been enjoying your videos for a couple of years now. keep on making them , sir.
I always wondered how much of Paul's determination to do (or to fail to do) the right thing is down to genetics as well.
Leto could do what Paul could not because he also had Chani's determination. I think you can see (in all the characters, not just in Paul) how far Herbert took the idea that we are determined by our genetic material. In many ways, Paul is a sum of Jessica and Leto I, Jessica is the daughter of baron Harkonnen, etc. The genetics dictates not only the physical attributes of these people, they also have psychological predispositions similar to their genetic ancestors. That is the majesty of Herbert's writing, in my opinion.
Also, morally, I don't see Paul as being the only one responsible for avoiding the battle at the end time - he did not ask for the power he had, and in a way, he is one of the most affected victims of what the schemes of the ones before him brought about... and I think it is clear in the books he does not want the position he has. Leto II's choice is morally commendable, he is a hero - form an utilitarian standpoint, at least - but i don't think Paul should 100% be blamed or considered morally bankrupt because he could not bring himself to do what Leto II did.
Also, if you take the genetic angle, Paul could not choose otherwise because he did not have the psychological predisposition to do so, therefore to hold him morally accountable for a choice that was not available to him would be wrong, I think. In a way, by choosing to marry Chani, he gave Leto II the psychological tools to choose the path he could not choose himself. And I don't mean he necessarily did this consciously, but I do believe one way to understand love is to say that we are attracted and we admire in a significant other the traits we wish we had ourselves (that is at least one way in which people say their loved ones complete them). Also, this goes in line with the instinct of the species to survive and become better, which is one of the themes of the book.
Also, I'm not defending Paul or trying to say that he was the architect of the golden path even if he did not know it, I don't think this story is only about the moral responsibility of leaders. I think that the main point of the story is precisely about how the moral responsibility of leaders is exaggerated, about how they are actually, at least in some cases, the least responsible, and the ones who should take the blame are precisely the people who project their expectations, their plans and their fantasies on to their leaders (be it intentionally, like the Bene Gesserit, or unintentionally, like the Fremen). Mua'dib is not his own creation, he's the creation of others. Not even a remarkable man like Paul could overcome the harm done by the collective intentions and the collective lack of responsibility of the crowd and the schemers, who projected their own expectations and their own salvation in the hands of someone else. It took a GOD to bring things back to normal, and even so, the cost in human life was absurd.
And, as far as Paul's choice to not become a god is concerned, I can see something commendable in that. Or, at least, it could be defended morally, I don't think it is an easy matter of "he was too weak to make the obvious right choice".
Love this comment mainly because that's how I understood the books. For me the significance was genetic memory. Specifically, Chani was a pivotal character for me bit only because of what she meant to Paul but also because her wildcard Fremen genetic memory not only fortified her children's character, but gave them a unique perspective of reality and a hardness that both Paul and Alia lacked. For me large part of Dune was defined by the aboriginals of Arrakis shaping the future of the known universe.
@@TheDaeroner I wholeheartedly agree. I always say that what I love about Dune (and what sets it apart) is that it's science fiction but about genetics. Most science fiction is about technology, robots or phisycs, but Dune is original on this front as well.
I never saw him as the hero or the villain. Paul is the catalyst of change for humanity. He rejected it, and tried to find another way, which is why his son takes his place. Sad really. Poor Chani.
Love your thoughts on the Dune universe!! Great videos!! I've watched a few and really, really enjoy them, thank you so much! I have read the entire Dune series (not the ones written by his son, just the Frank Herbert original ones). The first two I thought I could understand but I very much struggled to fully comprehend much of the later books I think. I very much appreciate your perspectives. I even re-read the entire series but I think I still didn't fully understand the meaning(s) intended by Herbert (who I truly believe to have been genius). Thanks again :)
I have never seen someone into dune as much as I do. You sir are an amazing person. I would love to sit down with you with a cup of coffee and talk with you. Thank you for being here
You have a great voice. Would love to hear you do audio books.
I mean, it's fairly explicit in the text. By the end of book three he's been eclipsed by his son. And even by book two, Herbert starts tearing down Paul as a "hero", and starts recontextualizing him as a manipulator. You know, for those who might have missed that in book one.
@Benjamin Figgins Exactly. Paul was a manipulator from the start of his dealings with the freman. Book 2 takes all subtlety away from the fact he is not a hero
@Benjamin Figgins
More to the point, he realized that he was powerless to stop it, and made choices to try and find the path of least suffering. The manipulation of the Fremen began not with Paul, but with Jessica, and they only spared Paul because she proved her weight (ten times!) in water through fighting ability. It's hardly manipulation to save yourself from death by making yourself valuable to the people who would gladly kill you.
Later on, of course, the Fremen's own superstitions give Paul the chance to step forward and accomplish what his training, breeding enabled him to do, and not only did he take revenge upon Houses Harkonnen and Corrino, but also usurped their power so that he could mitigate the extent to which the Fremen would rampage across the universe. Hell, even keeping himself alive was to this effect, since as a martyr his name would be invoked for far worse atrocities than actually took place.
Paul wasn't born to prescience. He gained it through much, much suffering, and by then it was both too late for him to stop and too much for him to bear. I don't agree that Messiah exposes him as just a bad actor and manipulator. It shows him trying to juggle the management of the corridors of power, dealing with all the groups who conspired to cost him to greatly in the first place.
Everyone seems to forget that Paul was, first and foremost, a victim.
I'm so glad you're around to articulate this so very important fact about Dune. It's what unfortunately most ppl don't understand about Dune (and Lynch's scandalous adaptation didn't help the case either) - Paul, Leto II, Sheena, most iterations of Duncan, Miles Teg; none of these characters are heroes. None of them are "good". None of the Great Houses, factions, organizations are, and Herbert relayed this important fact so clearly, elegantly and meditatively at the same time, that it's both baffling and saddening that people don't get it.
Love your Dune videos, man. They help me relax after a long day
I read Dune when.I was very young and (probably bolstered by the David Lynch movie) I tool him to be the hero.
When I was a bit older and reread Dune before reading the rest of the series I finally got it. It's masterfully done and and a oiece of subtle genius.
I appreciate your analysis and I agree with it. Paul is a more tragic than epic character, that is, heroic at times and also flawed, like Oedipus or Hamlet, trying to cope with the inevitable. And in all the novels devoted to him he is truly obsessed by a destiny, an unavoidable future that is imposed on him and scares him. History seems to be already written and he feels trapped. Since he is an emperor, he fits totally with the classic type of hero of tragedy.
Wow, incredible video. I’ve been enjoying your videos immensely, great work.
Great video! This is one of my favorite channels on youtube!
This is somewhat misrepresentitive of Paul's character. His morals were the main reason he didn't go trough with the golden path. He detested the thought of doing all those atrocities to human kind and because of that he did not allow himself (unconsciously) tosee the full vision. He didn't see that the alternative would lead to the death of the human race. So he did not weight his own well being against human kind, he just chose what he thought was the right thing to do, the moral thing. He acknowledged he did evil but never was it his intention.
Agreed.
@James Herndon we have Moneo and Siona as well...
So he was weak. Either in denial or morally bankrupt. What if he just found an alternative to spice? Or shared power?
Just 2 paths?
That was the relentless thrust of the book and why I stopped reading.
They were "trapped by their visions" - rigid thinkers, myopic.
@@avgjoe5969 lol nonsense, not only were there countless, ever changing paths, but even if there werent, thats a nonsense reason to drop the books.
The golden path was the only one to make the human race eternal, which is realistic, considering how unlikly the prospect of human eternity is. The countless other paths just led to a different and differently timed death. Frank spends 1 book setting it up and 3 whole books exploring how it happenes. There is no better way to writte this, there is no other path but the golden path
@@jukaa1012 I will admit that I only saw the Movie Children of Dune, so that might have been lost in translation. I did like the movie (and the characters were more relatable than the Lynch version if less surreal) but the logic as presented turned me off.
Thanks for the correction.
This man speaks heresy about Moad'Dib.
I love the new context you bring to the series ive read all of dune throughout the series but yeah paul was quite terrified of the future he was bringing rising as a messiah because of his "power" he was able to see potential outcomes in the future that would be quite dark.
I found your channel last week. And find your insights spot On.
So he lives long enough to become the villain
Knowing Leto II suffers for thousands of years makes me sad. :’(
Love your channel. Awesome work.
Power doesn't corrupt, it merely reveals (like the internet), in the end lots of leaders are still good people, lots of leaders aren't. We just remember the bad ones more, because as human beings negatives stand out more
Funny thing about Paul. He spent his entire life trying to prevent the Great Jihad and the Golden Path, simply because of the TRILLLIONS of people who were going to die in his name. He mentioned this several times in the first 2 books. "Even if I die today, those worlds will still burn in the name of a Martyr." The lesson of Dune "beware charismatic leaders..."
Always love to hear your reviews
Your videos help so much with comprehending Dune!
I wonder what would happen if Paul chose another path - meet Vladimir and call him grandfather. That option was on the table, but implication disgusted Paul. Would be it rlly worse for humanity than Jihad and Golden Path later?
What if Paul did nothing? Would letting the Barron and Padasha keep control ultimately be better for humanity even though the Barron was the most blantantly evil person in like the whole series?
One’s society’s hero can be another society’s villain.
Thank you for sharing about the story! I have seen Dune 1 on yt and dune 2 in teather without reading the books and was confused about many things! I am now curious to read the books myself... 😄
I love this video!!!!!!!!! I think two works you would find very interesting considering how well you highlighted this whole aspect of Dune would be Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials/The Book of Dust sequence and Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun. :) :)
TL;DW He lived long enough to see himself become the villain.
Paul's story arc is a warning against prophecy and messiahs.
Thank you Quinn for your Dune content!! I'm halfway through the first book!
This is an AWESOME video, man! Good job reading (putting a little emotion into it). Still reading Paul of Dune...since I already read Messiah...there are some spoilers in here but I was able to eject those memories, np. There's still hope that we, the people, get access to this movie soon...IF Wonder Woman & Tenet sell well online...which they WILL because everyone is friggin'DESPERATE for some new (and high quality) shit to watch. (Thank you, Mandalorian!!!!)
Why can't Paul be both hero and antihero? He helped the entire human organism to reorganize itself, avoiding evolutionary stagnation. This involved horrendous violence and indeed the creation of "the ultimate predator", Leto II.
I think one of Paul's biggest faults is that he pushes becoming God Emperor on Leto II.