The Hidden Risks of Meditation - Dr. Willoughby Britton | The Tim Ferriss Show
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
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Willoughby Britton, PhD is a clinical psychologist, an associate professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown University Medical School, and the director of Brown’s Clinical and Affective Neuroscience Laboratory.
Her clinical neuroscience research investigates the effects of contemplative practices (meditation) on the brain and body in the treatment of mood disorders, trauma, and other conditions. She is especially interested in which practices are best- or worst-suited for which types of people or conditions and why. She is probably best known for her research on adverse effects-why they happen and how to mitigate them.
Dr. Britton is the founder of Cheetah House, a nonprofit organization that provides evidence-based information and support for meditators in distress as well as meditation safety trainings to providers and organizations.
Please enjoy!
[00:00] Intro
[02:37] Where did Willoughby’s interest in meditation begin?
[05:45] Discovering a link between meditation and insomnia.
[08:02] Challenging assumptions about meditation as a purely beneficent practice.
[12:00] Awakening is not a metaphor.
[14:19] Can mindfulness be too much of a good thing?
[16:44] My personal experience with meditation defying positive expectations.
[25:35] Undesirable consequences of meditation are more common than you probably think.
[27:41] What makes some people more vulnerable to the potential dangers of meditation than others?
[34:44] Mitigating risk of adverse effects
[43:39] Altered states as a deviation from baseline.
[44:26] The impact of diet on meditation.
[46:16] The neuroscience behind psychedelics and meditation.
[51:15] The dangers of combining psychedelics and meditation.
[53:09] Choosing and vetting the ideal meditation retreat.
[58:48] When being a high achiever is a risk factor.
[1:03:49] Does Willoughby currently practice any forms of meditation?
[1:06:41] When meditation compromises cognition.
[1:10:36] Duration of symptoms and duration of impairment.
[1:11:44] Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD).
[1:12:53] Differences between meditation-related and psychedelic-related adverse events.
[1:15:44] The origin of Cheetah House.
[1:18:12] Ideological power and scaffolding.
[1:26:59] Willoughby’s self-care.
[1:31:07] Resources for people seeking relief from meditation-related adverse effects.
[1:36:35] Institutional betrayal and the empathy that comes from being humbled.
[1:39:03] Advice for aspiring psychedelic healers.
[1:41:38] Near-death experiences (NDEs).
[1:53:00] Parting thoughts, and the Dalai Lama’s response to Willoughby’s meditation research.
Tim Ferriss is one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People” and an early-stage tech investor/advisor in Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ other companies. He is also the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers: The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, The 4-Hour Chef, Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer and other media have named him “the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has exceeded 900 million downloads and been selected for “Best of Apple Podcasts” three years running.
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no more AG1?
Thanks, Tim. Killer episode! This is Marcos, one of your friends you've never met, down the road in south Austin. I'm steadily making progress toward my 30-day Vipassana sit. I'm glad you covered this topic with a pro. (I could tell you tales!)
And BTW, I really feel for you, man. That must have been a very rough experience. But seriously: fasting, shrooms, plus intro to Vipassana?! Wha hoo! You know that old saying that Terence McKenna used to quote? "There are old shamans. There are bold shamans. But there are no old bold shamans." Pace yourself, dude!
In case you're curious... I've used various techniques since 1985 (started down there on S. Lamar where Uchi is now). Had many supernatural experiences, especially when I was younger, before I learned how to "control" that sort of thing. For those who have unexpectedly had unusual experiences during meditation, I highly recommend: "Kundalini Rising: Exploring the Energy of Awakening", or at least reading the reviews. You are the best, Tim. I hope we get to meet some day, drink some wine, meditate, talk about the edges of human consciousness and altered states of being. Come say "hey" if you're ever in San Leanna (waaay south Austin).
After my mother passed away to pulmonary fibrosis (basically unable to breathe) in my arms, I was unable to meditate since pretty much every meditation track told me to focus on my breath which threw me back into reliving her final moments. Meditation was my primary coping skill; it was a long time before I regained my equilibrium.
Yes, people don’t understand that there is not a one size fits all approach to anything that works for everyone. I had a similar experience with grief counseling where they emphasized forgiveness as a cure all. I had to go through 3 different programs to finally find one that allowed me to discuss my complicated feelings about my Mom, and about the way she was so spiteful during her last days (well, her whole life, but she really ramped it up at the end) without just jumping right to practice forgiveness and you’re “cured.”
I am sorry for your loss.
Thank you for this view of the "other side" and your courage and honesty in discussing your experience. This is something I've never heard talked about, but I can imagine it happening and catching many by surprise. Much of what you describe has happened to me due to trauma-induced triggers even without meditation and/or psychedelics, so I can imagine the intensity under the circumstances you describe. It shows the vast complexity and infinite variability of human beings and our brain and nervous systems....leaves me in awe.
Thank you so much for this. I experienced a psychotic break during a yoga teacher training. Luckily I was able to return to work after a 3-month medical leave. My teacher, who would seem quite advanced and has worked with the Dalai Lama, provided very little aftercare and didn't even hop on a phone call with me (although she had done this prior to starting the training). I am perusing the Cheetah house resources now and I hope that a natural next outgrowth of this work will be a destigmatization and further research into psychosis triggered by spiritual experiences. By the way, I also think that my experiences were triggered partially by an upsurgence of repressed trauma.
Wow, I am so sorry to hear about your experience, what a betrayal from your yoga teacher!!! Glad to hear you have recovered and it's wonderful to know that the risks of mediation are coming to the surface. I'd imagine your experience is not rare. There needs to be a wider known treatment plan and support system for those going through it.
Yes, you have a trauma response, because the state of meditation made the compensation barriers around the trauma personas get weakened. You got a glimpse of something else, that does not fit the mechanisms of survival, you learned to survive the trauma.
This is not a caused by meditation. Meditation was simply the modality that made you reopen that hidden part.
I had a break from a new type of energetic meditation (kundalini-ish) 9 months ago. Things like knocking over a drink can heighten my energy into a rage - or sobbing. I have no control. And I’m someone who has had a crap ton of therapy, 12 steps and I have a masters in psych research to boot. So when unresolved stuff comes up for me, I have many tools I can use to move through it. And I use them. But not this time; not for this. I feel like I’m totally fucked. I have zero control. And yes. I’m going to talk to someone at Cheetah House.. so glad I watched this. Thank you Tim!
Fizer (ph) has an accelerated dementia from a my loid that you might want to look into. Irritability is assoc
kundalini can be dangerous without a teacher
Dr Willoughby is confirming something I've believed for myself for decades: the way to happiness in North America is the with the land.
The west has had a long love-affair with the exotic ways of the East. But it is not where this body and soul/soil are rooted.
Life and joy are found in the earthy every-day, the ordinary and small given great heights by my own valuing self.
To tend the earth and her creatures, to tend plants, to be in quiet and bird-song. To be with the seasons with as little mechanical
devices, as little technology, as possible. The profound joy of making a life with the hands. Leaving a small footprint on the planet.
Here, the inner-driven are turned to contemplation in Nature, not meditation. It is the way of the first peoples and down to us.
Dr Willoughby has discovered - not through books or higher education or a science project - the open secret.
Thank you for this enlivening conversation.
Huge benefits to living as you describe: reconnecting with ourselves through nature.
In my experience time in nature and meditation are quite complementary; meditation is great for maintaining big-picture perspective and contemplating the nature of Being, while time in nature is grounding and helps to integrate insights gained in meditation.
Huge thanks to Willowghby and Tim for the courage to share objective and evidence based knowledge about meditation!
Okay, interesting. But… two questions. First, throughout, I’m asking myself “what is the goal of any of this (meditation, fasting, psychedelics)?” and second, where does self-regulation come into play? You might just as well say “‘I’d never exercised to any significant degree before, then I tried to do a 100 mile marathon and encountered negative results…”
Yes
What is the intention, motivation, purpose, and to what it serves?
For many people they spend their adult lives trying to find a replacement for the intense and exciting hedonism of their youth which they grudgingly gave up.
@@matthewmaguire3554 hedonism yes absolutely, yet an analogical life is what adults realy want, sure pleasure is great but I thin we conflate pleasure with freedom or the ability to do what we want with out time outside of work, as work being a means of using our time instead of the other way around.
What about the conspicuous risks of not meditating?
Great episode, thank you! Dr. Britton's work is really important and helpful. Glad they mentioned the importance of movement and outdoor activity at 1.30 mins. Both are excellent self-care methods in themselves and good balances with sitting meditation. Also worth noting that movement can be an important type of meditation as well. Most traditional systems of meditation incorporate walking mediation between sitting, and also using mindful manual labor, like cleaning the monastery/zendo. Movement and exercise can also be an important mediation practice.
As the old Zen sayings go: "Before enlightenment chop, wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water"
And, " My supernatural power and marvelous activity is drawing water and carrying firewood.”
― Layman Pang
Great! Discussing uncomfortable topics is the thing for grown ups👏🏼 yet with respect for everyone who's in their journey 👍🏼
It was an interesting talk. Thanks for inviting Dr. Willoughby Britton.
Finally somebody is talking about negative side of meditation. I had challenging times after vipassana, I had panic attacks on daily basis after retreat. I was able to get it back together in 2 months and recover totally maybe after 1year. But I though I was only one with this problem.
A very important conversation. Thank you Tim. And Dr Britton! I have taken some of your courses on Dissociation ect and it has been very insightful and helpful for me and working with clients. I appreciate this resource deeply.
Edit: it’s also been so awesome to see your Journey Tim. I have a drawing of you from back in the early 18-20 year old self help days and sort of cognitively dismissed you as the self-help guy (as ego minds unreasonably and restrictively do) but I am so pleased to see you open up to more vulnerability and such deep curiosity emanating from your every pore. Such an important demonstration for your audience ❤️🔥
Brilliant and much needed discussion. Appreciate the honesty and self disclosure.
It s honest bias bs 😜
Tysm for this episode. Terrific interview with Dr. Britton, which was made better by you sharing your experiences. So much good information and reflection here I will listen again.
GREAT GREAT podcast. As someone familiar with many layers of this, including the NDE, I got huge value from the entire talk. SUPER grateful this work and these services are being offered. THANK YOU !
Your level of discipline, is absolutely astounding.
Tim you have a very soothing voice. It is a beautiful gift.
I have been stuck in a dissociative state since 2010 thanks to meditation (specifically a practice called 'self inquiry'). It ruined my social life, my sleep, my career and numerous other aspects of my life - I lived all of my late teens and 20s with this condition, and Willoughby's group 'Cheetah House' is the only place I've found any explanation for what happened to me. I've had numerous sessions with them now.
what does it mean dissociative state? ive hade my social life ruined and my career and family afterr an awakening and then meditation, but when i say ruined it - i love it ! none it of was good or real or fulfilling for me! and now i like being alone and enjoying nature and reading and not the chaos of others, i love my ruination!
Any solution for this?
@@kcsnipes Whatever happened to you is not the same as what happened to me
@@Paddehjwhat happened?
i wish you luck on finding what works for you @@Paddehj peace be with you
"When you squeeze an orange what comes out"?
My experience of a daily consistent practise of simply sitting with myself at the start of the morning together with simple stretches and fullness of breath....the fullness of myself....
For the first year at least, if not longer, it was pretty awful at times.... A lot of fear, tension, anger, sadness, mind racing, troubling thoughts and feelings..... yet on the other side of finally coming to accept these aspects of myself and going through the discomfort I was causing by holding onto these feelings I found joy, laughter, bliss, serenity and euphoria.....
We are not our thoughts and we are not our feelings....
All thoughts and feelings will pass.....
The results I found during the meditation started to echo into my daily life....
I'm more concerned now if I don't find any of those feelings that we deem as negative in modern day as though they should be eliminated....
I'm grateful for the pain physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually which occurs in my life....
One of my favourite sayings is "It's always darkest before the dawn"
"When you squeeze a human being what comes out"?
Thank you so much for this. I’m printing it out and putting it on my wall!
Before enlightenment there is endarkenment.
Methane
I agree. I think there are some important considerations that don’t seem fully factored into this meditation study. One of my closest friends ended his life after a meditation retreat - although it was more like 6-8 months of living in an ashram and doing meditation, followed by flying directly into New York City (he was on his way to surprise his mom with a visit), and then suddenly giving away all his identification and stepping off the planet. His friends who were with him at the last retreat days before, said he was extremely happy and glowing at the end of it. He was basically extremely opened up on a spiritual level and then flew right into NYC which is probably one of the most spiritually intense places to be in terms of someone with a wide open auric field. I feel that he was in a very open state and super vulnerable to spiritual attack in a place swarming with dark energies and entities. As someone with a psychology degree, I know this isn’t something a neuroscientist would study, but it is nonetheless real, and I believe entity attacks are a huge factor when it comes to this phenomenon - as people are literally casting off these forces through meditation and coming into expanded states - often leaving a retreat without normal levels of energetic self-protection. Spiritual warfare is simply a big part of this earth walk.
The second unconsidered factor is around correlation ≠ causation. My friend had been struggling with depression for decades prior to this and was in the middle of some of the most challenging astrological transits a person can go through, including a year long crossing of Pluto over his Moon - which brings up the deepest levels of emotional pain and trauma for transformation, as well as a sudden shock/attack energy of uranus opposing his mars, with a solar eclipse on his sun in the 8th house (of death). This was all happening when he stepped out. The point here is that as a professional astrologer, I see that when people have these massive life altering transits - like pluto, chiron, or uranus making hard aspects to sun, moon, mercury, or ascendant - it is a make or break time of core level transformation. It is a time that people often question how they feel about remaining alive. And it is a time when people are drawn to life changing experiences like meditation retreats, ayahuasca journeys, ending jobs or marriages, etc. It is the sink or swim period of massive spiritual change they are in, that would be happening regardless of whether they seek out a meditation retreat or not. And I think meditation retreats are often approached as a last ditch effort to try to overcome deep inner turmoil. When a person returns to the world and the turmoil is still there, it can feel as though they’ve exhausted their options - especially if they’ve already tried many avenues of therapy, medication, or deep healing work before. So I hope all this isn’t lost in the understanding of the true factors that may correlate end of life with intensive meditation, while not necessarily being the true cause.
Such an insightful conversation - thank you both! For me, the key takeaway is to develop self-awareness above all else. It’s always about the particular context you find yourself in. Know where you are, what you need, and where you want to go. Be aware of your natural leanings, sources of well-being, and indicators of stress. This is another great reason to cut back on the inputs and spend more time with yourself in silence.
Personally, meditation has been a continuous source of well-being and insight. I also find that a nourishing meditation practice doesn’t just involve concentration. I try to devote as much time to metta as to samadhi. I also do gratitude practice and aim to notice and take in the good as often as I can. Essentially, I want to fortify each leg of the stool that is an alive, peaceful, and loving mind: attention, compassion, and gratitude.
Absolutely fantastic interview!
this is so important. thank you
Fascinating thank you!
Looking forward to seeing this...
i appreciate this so much!
Perhaps there was a reason that pretty much all traditions also set in place protocols of behavior, ethics, etc leading into any in depth meditation practice. See 'gradual training' of Early Buddhism but that is just one example amongst many from meditative/contemplative traditions throughout the world. Could it possibly be that the modern hubris of brushing these aside without at least due consideration doesn't always lead to the best outcomes? 😆
Of course. But people don't know that. Many very isolated and damaged people are urged to learn about "mindfulness" by practitioners, and upon digging deeper, do not have the community to support them as they become destabilized by the process
Thank you for this interview. I've been a daily meditator for 40ish years and it's has been life support for me. I've consider doing longer immersive experiences. Now I feel informed! I found the topic of the 59 types of experiences interesting!
Fascinating! I don't think you can truly understand something until you can scale it from all sides.With meditation being promoted as a safe, drug-free treatment for mental health challenges it's extremely important for the risks to be widely known and for meditation retreats to be prepared to help people who experience a mental health crisis triggered by the experiences they provide. Thanks for this video, it was like hanging out with the smart and interesting friends I always wished I had for an evening ;-) lol good times.
BTW, Dr. Britton...I especially thank you for sharing the politically incorrect experiences that probably ruffled many feathers in many enlightenment circles. It is refreshing beyond belief. Let the truth flow and the feathers be ruffled !!!
WOW! BEST PODCAST EPISODE OF 2023 Award 🥇 Thank you both for your candid and enlightening conversation about this topic!! Absolutely a must listen! Thank you 🙏🏻
After watching the entire interview I am disappointed that there isn't really anything for me to take away from it. I went in expecting to get my beliefs on meditation challenged and what I was presented was wholly unconvincing. All the "challenges" and "negative consequences" she spoke about boiled down to having common sense and exercising one's one agency.
Every argument could have been applied to everything else in life. Next can be the discussion on how walking for 20 miles is dangerous if you've never walked for over an hour before.
on top of that, she clearly voiced her personal disappointment about her meditation experience and did not reveal, what she actually practiced or not practiced.
Nope, not convincing.
Good thing she takes care of mentally deranged folks at cheetah house, but it seems a little strange that from all the factors, confused psychedelic people were exposed to, meditation was a crucial factor. I would call the selection process of people going fruit loops after meditation inadvertedly biased.
Dont get me wrong, lots of sharlatans and confused people out there. but perhaps she should not attribute too much detrimental effects to that vague term „meditation“.
Yes i noticed that. Tim had to ask 3 times for her to talk about her own practice and even then she didn't even give a clear answer.
Her "replacement" for meditation was her just saying she does things that make her feel good...like...okay. Not convincing at all
To me, it's clear the mechanism of action between all these modalities is the alteration of consciousness that is "causing" the negative experiences. But all of us that use psychedelics and mediate are very aware that this is supposed to happen so you can deal with the things that are out of alignment in yourself so that harmony can be achieved.
& I agree, it's good that she's helping take care of people. But I felt a lot of strong bias from her end. @@bo_b12
@@bo_b12most, if not all researchers start with a hypothesis, that is born either out of personal experience or to challenge a status quo. Rarely out of curiosity. And this, there is an unconscious bias towards internal belief. And, we , as a society and culture look, more and more, at science to explain and/or prove our human experience and many are taking those numbers as facts not understanding that the numbers can be systematized to tell different stories and that human experience cannot be translated into numbers. Forgive her 😊
@@lidiarona4335
Got two academic degrees myself, albeit in fields less forgiving (or prone) to personal bias than hers. And I stumbled into the pitfalls of biased data more than once.
When a researcher fails to provide a concise definition of the object of research and evades specific and repeated questions to her own background, while claiming to have extensive experience of tenthousands meditation hours on the clock, there is something wrong.
I never counted my hours nor does it matter.
Many of the adverse effects may be more of a symptom of predisposition enhanced or triggered by meditation, rather than a causally related connection. A classic for correlation vs. causality. And worse even, katharsis and adverse effects are difficult to seperate.
Mixing stuff up is a pity, because the effects on psychological states or metabolism (also the adverse ones) harbour a vast potential.
A careful and impartial approach is therefore highly important. And dont get me wrong, I have little sympathy for the preachers of „meditation and healing“.
A sheer yay or nay is equally non-helpful.
People go psychotic for years, but for you it's "challenges" and "negative experiences" in the quotes. Is it not serious or not worth talking about. Extatic experiences that are promoted by the gurus are also neurotoxic, and kill your brain cells. Yes there's also a lot of religious propaganda, like instilling the values that you don't necessarily ascribe to. Not everyone sees their purpose in enlightenment or being calm or reducing their suffering even. People often go there to receive help in form of meditation and practices and are not aware of consequences they might be faced with. It is 100% worth talking, I thank her for this discussion and hope it will be broadened by more researchers in the future.
Amazing interview 😮
Wow, such a needed episode….
Thank you
This was a great podcast. Thank you both. I do a lot of movement and a daily meditation but doses of 30 min or less per session.
Important subjects to address. Tnx much. Would also recommend having B Alan Wallace on the show
The best retreats I have been to are Buddhist retreats where the *Four Foundations of Mindfulness* are discussed. In these retreats, it is great to have time to meditate, and also have engaging discussions on how the mind works, etc. (i.e., to participate in dhamma discussions). For those of you who do not know: the teachings of the Buddha profoundly explain the mind (these explanations are not mere beliefs, but things that one could see within their own experiences). It should also be noted here that taking magic mushrooms (or taking any intoxicants) would interfere with clearly comprehending the mind (i.e., understanding reality or gaining insights) because these chemicals would interfere with brain activity in different ways. In fact, the Buddha advised against taking intoxicants.
The Buddha never wrote it down himself. I'm sure you misunderstood a lot .....
@@masiraadmiraal777 The teachings of the Buddha were passed down through oral recitations from generation to generation and was then written down (when written languages arrived) - there are more than 10,000 discourses of the Buddha that are now recorded in what is referred to as the Tripitaka (you can check it out on the internet).
Various chemical substances, including common food, "interfere" (aka influence) with brain activity *all the time.* The point is how much, how exactly, and at what stage on the path are we talking about. "Intoxicants" can both hinder or enhance various aspects of meditation. We are talking about a very complex reality here and the views you have expressed are too simplistic (i.e. definitely wrong).
Awesome interview! I think it's really important to support as many people as possible to become aware of the risks involved in meditation, and to help people to gain awareness of ways to navigate meditation-related challenges if they do occur.
Tim, you're such a lovely, humble guy and you have a beautifully curious mind. I think that those qualities make you a great interviewer. I also really respect Willoughby's courage in the face of criticism and her breadth of knowledge on this topic.
One of the advantages I find with movememt practices is that when I get close to trauma, it shows up to me as lethargy. And I know what to do there: just keep moving. Hard it is, moving a muscle seems easier to me than being stuck still in a traumatic experience with no tools to get out.
So glad these things r be talked about. I started meditating two years ago, I do it every day and I’m able to do an hour. I have not had anyone that knows about meditation to talk to so some of these things I did know that was happening to me was a thing. The no inner monologue, the detachment of emotions, and more, these r things i have had to Integrate into my life, I’m so happy I’m not crazy lol this explains a lot
Interesting video. There is a spiritual component to meditation (and yoga) that many westerners don’t realize or acknowledge and they come up if you go deep into practices.
I remember attending a “mindfulness” event at UM and watching the hoops professors went to to secularize a Tibetan or theravada bell technique with meditation. It seems innocent on the front end, but has implications for the few who go deep
Thanks
Thanks so much for this conversation and all the information. I had a handful of negative experiences with psychedelics in the 60s (I'm 71) and then brief similar negative experiences when trying many different kinds of meditation practices. I always felt ashamed and wondering what was wrong with me, not mention cheated -- cheated out of the benefits I wanted from meditation. And I was sure that I must be 1 of maybe 3 people on the planet with this character defect. I didn't realize that my responses likely came from early childhood trauma stuff (even though I have pursued many avenues of healing from that stuff. What a relief to get some education here! I'm grateful that many guided meditations have been beneficial and enlightening. So I will stick with those. Thanks again, Tim. I appreciate all that you do.
Thanks, now I know where my Insomnia came from. Since I meditate less regular in the evening, Insomnia disappeared. Working in my garden, my Art or Music gives me more Flow, but meditation helps to calm myself.
I'm glad this came up on my YT feed because I'm investigating meditation, and want to make sure I don't jump off into the deep end, especially since I won't being doing it in a group setting.
Meditation has historically been practiced in group settings where life is very regimented and controlled so people have a culture they are embedded in while they engage in a practice that dissolves their ego. If they didn't have that they might have died.
I fell asleep with a meditation on in my headphones. I haven’t slept since. I’ve tried MORE meditations to induce sleep and different Binaural beats but sounds like I made the problem worse. I was not searching for enlightenment and only wanted to relax and try to be less negative. I was not meditating as a practice. I put it on, fell asleep and it played for an hour and a half before I woke and realized and took it off. The very next night I couldn’t sleep. My body and brain will not allow me to enter into deep sleep and I hold my breath and my body forces me out of deep sleep. It’s wreaking havoc on my life. It was Abide meditation and scripture even.
I love this woman !
Well intentioned and makes one understand the imperfection in perfection.
Interesting thoughts. It appears important to question everything you believe to be true.
The Doors- Break on through to the other side!
Been there done that without anything 😇
Always appreciate the conversation & knowledge, Thank's Tim/Willoughby!
I liked the short walk-through around scaffolding. I can see how that’s a valuable handholder from the ethereal to the physical for one’s mind. Could be useful to have some sort of condensed guided few minutes of that sort of thing on the backend of the more mystical airy stuff that many of us have partaken in. A good tool that we should carry on any path. Great convo you two, thanks for havin it.
A contemporary indian spiritual teacher Maharishikaa is on youtube and has several videos warning people about meditation and in particular kundalini awakenings. She also has some interesting first hand facts about previous gurus like Ramana Maharshi and the state he ended up in after his life of "meditating". Highly recommended viewing.
Can you please point me towards the video in which she talks about Ramana Maharshi? Thank you.
She mentions it/him in several videos; Her current "chief of staff" used to take care of Ramana in his latter days.
Good job!👍🙏🏻
Fantastic Podcast Tim. Excellent that you gave Dr. Britton the airtime as her views will be so controversial to many, congrats on reminding us that we need to get as many viewpoints as possible to make informed choices.
dont do psychedelics on a vipassana, it is naturally psychedelic enough.
great convo & different perspective
1) I agree w Tim's theory in the commonality of mystical experiences between NDE, intensive meditation & psychedelics.
2) I definitely require high fat, moderate protein keto diet for CNS regulation. It makes massive difference in my mental health.
Entire discussion extremely riveting! Sooo grateful this work is being done & hope it expands rapidly 🎉❤
I think one should look for ways to know more about ourselves, just don’t do anything that don’t feel comfortable, don’t push just because it “works for somebody else”, bring the experience you want, but learn to listen your own mind and body
Asmr Reiki Healing and Asmr Qigong have been so healing for anxiety and sleep issues. I prefer the short videos or if I listen to a longer one I am asleep within 15 minutes.
One example is I broke my leg and was in the hospital and they just put a cast on my leg. I was experiencing panic attacks. So I looked up an Asmr Reiki healing video and watched it a couple of times and it subsided.
I get tingles in the back of my neck and relax.
I realize it's the placebo effect... I don't care... it works, it's free and nonaddictive. I don't want to be brainwashed somehow so I don't do the long ones. Usually watch the 2-3 minute shorts.
Why not just call it Reiki and Qigong the use of the acronym ASMR makes it sound more objectified than it is at the moment and does it a great disservice, there is still a lot that is not known how these practices affect the body and psyche.
Because it's whispers and not intrusive. It's calming.
As a great follow-up, listen to The Retreat podcast by the Financial Times. They go into the dangers of Vipassana retreats, Serial style.
Wow! Tim I admire your work for being forthcoming. Bravo Tim. Standing ovation to Willoughby. Regards South Australia
The hidden risks of drinking water. (Depends on the water)❤
Psychedelics seem like they could damage the brain and that that's why hallucinating could end up being ongoing. Is that possibly true?
glad toi done this as I often say meditation is not for everyone or its a case of for who and when
Wow - this is so different from what I've ever considered 😮👍🌷
I appreciate the initiative, however this is part of the process. Meditation and enlightenment is separating what happens outside of your body (or to your body) from your happiness. This is how someone who self-immolates for example feels no suffering, pain might exist but suffering does not. Of course a psychotic break is an instance of endless hamster wheel rumination rather than refocusing on the only thing that is real: your ability to experience the world and the sensations within it (e.g. vipassana style meditation). I think her understanding of the human experience feels incorrect, she doesn't seem to understand that the process of overcoming craving and aversion is exactly the point of meditation.
I've experienced much of what was described, and the process of overcoming was recognizing that I was the observer. That I could choose to adjust my focus to my body and so on. Of course mileage may vary and folks all have different capacities to take on these difficult challenges, however no one should feel that meditation or even the path of enlightenment is not for them. We are all neuroplastic, past trauma doesn't not mean eternal suffering or an inability to overcome.
Well said. I have pushed meditation very far and have been meditating for an hour+ at a time every day since 2011, there has always been "the other side" of the friction where I was freed once I pushed just a little bit further beyond where I was comfortable. I've never felt any type of harm even when in extremely altered states of consciousness, nor have I have ever had insomnia from long periods of meditation.
It's always so amusing to see how when presented with this information for the first time, the default assumption is that Dr. Britton doesn't understand meditation.
@@pulsemaps sorry where did i say she didn't understand meditation? Clearly understands it, however its treating a part of the process as if its a problem when it's just a stage.
@@whattime2587Maybe read what you wrote? You explicitly said she doesn't understand meditation. "I think her understanding of the human experience feels incorrect, she doesn't seem to understand that the process of overcoming craving and aversion is exactly the point of meditation"
what a bad faith answer. If someone has bad effects with a drug or a treatment, you immediatly stop it, but not when it's meditation. Why? Because supposedly that is the path to an end wich we do not even know it's possible ( not evidence for enlightenment whatsoever besides reiligious text, which might as well be evidence for any other religious concept). People who are criticizing Dr. Britton aren't doing it based on empirical evidence or reality, but simply being based on religious ideology. It's the identical to evangelicals criticizing homossexuality, you should push trough these feeligns and follow the word of god to attain salvation, only when it's meditation is you should push troug these feelings and attain enlightenment.
Thank you Dr Willoughby for bringing these information to my knowledge. I had a hunch for a long time that meditation is not for me. Not really. Never had any side effects apart of being very relaxed when meditating before bed. And marked boredom 😀
Thanks for this, though i was trained in TM 45 years ago, and i appreciate and have enjoyed it in the past, i have always had an aversion to or annoyance of meditation. The circle of people i associate with are big on meditation and sometimes push it on me. And i feel a bit guilty for not being a fan of it. Like the good Dr, i feel it's just not in my nature, I much rather experience a more continues ongoing present mindedness throughout the day.
Again thanks.
Wow, that is a funny story about your story, Tim, where you combined the incrementally increased doses of shrooms with fasting and a silent retreat group. It reminded me of when I was in my twenties (back in the 90's) and taking lots of psychedelics. I would say that the part where you were closing your eyes and going back to the experience that was unpleasant was the shrooms. Psychedelics in general tend to have that momentum of a freight train when closing your eyes.
I used to be a somatic awareness instructor, which was just a fancy name that I gave to myself as a Massage therapist. I had really great training though which included a good amount of neuro linguistic programming (NLP), because when people get a good massage, they tend to enter into a highly suggestive trance like state. It is very important to be clear and mindful of what one says.
I have also done extensive meditation, and back in the 90's attended week long gestalt therapy groups as a facilitator or 'part of the crew'. One thing that I would point out is that "the crew" in many of these settings isn't as well trained as one would hope for. I witnessed many horrid mistakes made by interns who were getting their psychology hours in. But that is a whole other story.
As for the 10% or so of negative experiences from meditation, you do not say what kind of meditation, guided or self guided. Most beginners are probably doing guided meditations. I think that this is where many of the problems can be, as I have been open to experiencing many different peoples delivery of guided meditation, I have found that at least 20% of them fail (in my book) to use proper language, and to leave the people that they are guiding in a really good place.
Also, I have studied and been schooled in QOL assessment forms as they relate to research. And, in clinical hospital psychology settings, have found them to be severely lacking along with other paper hand out media, which was meant to be helpful. One time that I pointed this out in a group and the leader, as well as many in the group, agreed that the form was poorly written. but the leader shrugged it off and said, "it was probably just written by an intern", and it seemed like nothing was going to be done about it.
But going back to silent meditation, my first experiences with meditation were in an Aikido class where we did about 10 minutes of sitting silently on our knees and were told to focus on a point in front of us. The hard part was sitting on our knees for that long. I think it was called za-zen meditation. Since the teacher wasn't telling us what to think about, I would say that it was mostly self guided.
I also had the privilege of learning research from and working with a doctor who ran a sleep lab. (one of five or six doctors who were teaching me)
So now I'm like 42 minutes into the video and Dr. Britton askes about your personal indicators, great question. What comes to my mind for that retreat is what was the intent that you set for the retreat when you decided to front load it with fasting and then hyper-fuel it with shrooms? I'm not judging, I like to experiment more than most people, but that plan of action in itself would yield an unusual event, imo. and be an indicator.
Vipassana for me was so traumatising.
I remember the day I was let out
I felt like a bewildered caged animal.
Vipassana is an extreme experience and definitely not for everyone. I have been a practitioner for nearly 30 years in a bhakti yoga lineage where the main practice is meditation on a mantra and it's been a very gentle, gradual process.
I had HPPD in my early twenties and I've never been the same since, I'm 52 now and I never knew what it was until watching this video. Thank yo.
Practice meditation for 15 years, don't research history, culture, context and not realize from personal experience that meditation is a challenging, energizing experience. WTF!!! Not surprised she had adverse reactions. "It takes a lot of degrees to be that foolish." Her research sounds very interesting tho.
The real surprising thing is that MOST Western practitioners and even teachers don't understand the history of Buddhism in the West. The influence of the European colonization at the end of the 19th century transfigured Buddhism to be amenable to the concerns of Westerners, the most impactful way being an emphasis on meditation itself. In most traditional Buddhist cultures the vast majority of people don't meditate, especially non-monastics! Even within monasteries few monks meditate. The idea of meditation being emphasized is itself is a Western influence.
perhaps you missed the part where she discussed the high percentage of medication teachers that are reporting these adverse events ,
"don't research history, culture, context" - This is extremely common among many members of many sanghas. So many Buddhists are clueless about so many things related to their path. I imagine it is the same for people following Indian gurus. There are simple reasons for this, but who cares 🤷♂ In any case, until full Enlightenment we are all ignorant to a greater or lesser degree, so don't judge too harshly. Understanding is wiser than judging 😉
From Waldorf philanthropists who don't want to hear about traumatic abuse in Waldorf schools - or make it public, to therapists not mentioning that 12% of therapists have sex with some of their clients (always bad for the client) and not mentioning that, to pro-psychedelic books not mentioning bad trips there is an endless list of ways people are harmed by veganism, vegetarianism, selflessness, channels, churches and the Dalai Llama. What's missing is a voluntary meta-database that allows anyone to access these statistics providing they answer the question first - something that would unleash more invisible useful information than anything on the planet today 100 fold. There are more than 100 key questions no human has ever asked me that everyone close should know and its not personal. We are a don't ask, don't tell cult-ure and remain willfully ignorant and cruelly negligent as a result.
Some NDEs in which people describe room activities and so forth while they are clinically dead have been verified. How can those instances be dismissed as nonsense?
Yes! In these experiences, patients recall descriptions of their resuscitation that happened during the time their brain was clinically non-functional, and out of the potentially verifiable out-of-body perceptions, about 90% have been found to be completely accurate. It is estimated that 25 million individuals worldwide have had a near death experience in the past fifty years, and these experiences have been reported throughout time in essentially all cultures, by not just religious individuals, but by atheists and agnostics as well as children who are commonly considered to be too young to have any real concept of death. Below are two research publications:
van Lommel, P. (2011). Near-death experiences: the experience of the self as real and not as an illusion. _The New York Academy of Sciences,_ 1234:19-28.
Agrillo, C. (2011). Near-Death Experience: Out-of-Body and Out-of-Brain? _Review
of General Psychology,_ 15(1), 1-10.
Thanks so much!
Yes decades and decades. Especially
Children who have no experience with life and cannot transfer experiences because they don’t have any.
The simple explanation is that the apparent lack of brain activity is simply a limitation of instrumentation, and that the basic sensory functions of the brain have a very low electrical load.
@@mindfulmoments4956I tried to read both these articles, but neither are publicly available.
What an amazing conversation! Firstly, TIm, watch out for those magic mushrooms, they can be magical or not. On Dalai Lama, he laughs as a means of his being, it probably not meant to be aggressive against the Dr. Coming from an intense yoga tradition, meditation was and cautioned against, as being a very advanced practice, which goes hand in hand with what the Lama said. There are many types of meditation, and silent retreats are probably the most intense. My take is when you finally quiet the mind, like analysis, the memories of the past surface, my resolution card has always been forgiveness, a switch like the magic glass, that leaves the experience there but clouds the image so there is no current affect. I hope you find peace, and your past terrible experience not interfere with the now or ever again.
Admittedly I'm still listening to the podcast and haven't finished it yet, but if Vipassana retreats in the United States are anything like those conducted in Europe or the UK (where I attended one last August), there are certain precepts that attendees are required to adhere to, not least of which is to abstain from taking any intoxicants during the 10 days. I'm sure this is at least partly because the conditions of a Vipassana retreat are already very hard work for a mind accustomed to 'normal' life in the everyday world, and psychotic breaks are a very real possibility if one's psychological state is at risk of becoming destabilised.
I'm not in a position to judge how someone else chooses to approach their Vipassana experience, but it seems a little flippant to go into such an endeavour by disregarding one of the very precepts that are set out for the attendees, ultimately for their own well-being. But again, perhaps the retreats in the USA under Jack Kornfield are particularly different from the one I attended, which was in the S.N. Goenka tradition. Either way, I appreciate Tim sharing his experience.
Goenka is supposed to be ultra hard core from what I read online, to the point of being unpleasant and destabilizing without any mind-altering substances.
It was certainly a challenging period, but by no means insurmountable. There are three Adhiṭṭhāna or 'strong determination' sittings per day, of one hour duration each, during which one resolves to refrain from changing one's posture. I personally was a bit apprehensive about these beforehand due to general knee glitches sustained during my 40 years of life (used to do long distance running in my twenties, but I'm not exactly slight of build), though ultimately I made it through the vast majority of those sittings without moving, which surprised myself. Overall I found it to be very worthwhile, although the Goenka tradition has a distinctly 'culty' feel to it, probably due to the man being deceased but his voice recordings still serving as the sole guidance during the meditations. I don't begrudge it for that, though, and would definitely consider doing another one in future. I'm also curious as to how retreats run by the Vipassana movement under Jack Kornfield differ from the very rigid (and according to its own claims, true to the Buddha's original teachings) Goenka method, but I think I'd need to travel to the United States to find that out.
I did have a fringe concern before going in that I might lose my mind or be confronted with some kind of repressed childhood issues, but that didn't happen at all. If anything I learned that my perceived limits are in large part self-created, and with dedication and focus can be far transcended. I'd recommend giving it a shot if you ever feel curious, but just be sure to stick it out for the full ten days so as to give it a fair trial. @@PeterKoperdan
@@gregbatchelor9205 I am past the point I would be interested in Goenka. Meditation has started to "work" in my daily life. But I heard Goenka is free, so that's great for people on a budget. American retreats tend to be disgustingly expensive (at least from European perspective).
@@PeterKoperdanChallenging certainly, but the context is supportive and not destabilizing. Based on my substantial experience, your fears/assumptions here are over inflated, fwiw.
@@ericpeters0n Well, that's what some people seemed to have experienced. I don't know how statistically significant those experiences were. There will also be differences between individual centers 🤷♂
Stopping drinking is also incredibly dangerous when you drink all day every day
Cutting off emotion is also a trauma response. I am very familiar with that. Light and floaty sort of not in the body anymore. A passive observer.
Dissociation may have different flavors too.
24:24 The mind! The mind can be a terrible thing. It is not for you or against you. It just is. A tool, mechanism, doorway(s), with many paths.
Just because we are born with an incredibly powerful toolset of varying degrees does not mean at all that we know how to navigate with the use of them.
There are so many factors to then add, making overwhelming an understatement. I try to keep in mind IMPS. Intention, motive, purpose, and serve.🔥
Thanks very informative conversation! Too much of everything is damaging, raising awareness and sharing one’s experience is brave, generous and kind! Thanks!
I really appreciate this conversation, and the research, etc.
But the study was done on only participants who had adverse events. I’d love to know what the numbers are for all meditators on average?? What are the odds?
Also, even if the effect lasts for 1-3 years, this sounds “all bad” when in fact it’s probably a full range from can’t meditate again to continuing as per usual with all kinds of growth and positives but I don’t think that’s explored
When doing research it's vital be clear on variables. Meditation is a broad term with thousands of modalities, each one with different impacts. lts a bit unscientific to paint every meditation kind with the same brush. The people who had psychosis experiences, I would like to know what their mental health status was before they went in.
It was she who *assumed* that the people (yogis) were having psychotic experiences! Those people were most likely having very normal experiences, and were in the process of mindfully observing their own subjective experiences!
@@mindfulmoments4956 I think it should be defined on how functional it makes them in the world, can they provide for themselves for instance? Take care of their needs? Are they harmful to anyone? if not then it is just a silly label, if it is then there are real problems.
It doesn't matter. Meditation is now being used for a treatment for depression and anxiety and if it can trigger psychosis or a subjectively terrible experience, people should know about that.
@@rooish574 Meditation is about letting go whatever comes up - it is not about choosing some things to indulge in (to attach to) and excluding other things. Please also see the following new study on neurofeedback:
Zhang, J., et al. (2023). Reducing default mode network connectivity with mindfulness-based fMRI neurofeedback: a pilot study among adolescents with affective disorder history. Molecular Psychiatry, 1-9.
nice victim blaming. Are you also going to blame consumers of SSRIs when experiencing the drugs bad side effects?
The fake shamans thing is important. Years ago I found some of my pals n peers at a rave who had taken on this role trying to heal a girl who had OD'd with Reiki and love. I opted to heal her by calling 911 even though I was the asshole who ruined the party. Beware false prophets and too-wise dudes in the Dead parking lot.
How do you OD on Reiki and love?
@@Andrew-dg7qm lol, that's the way I read it at first too, try putting a comma after OD'd
😂🤣😅@@rohaxfx001
So you dont actually know if he was a fake Shaman. You just know you got scared and ruined everything
Well done. When someone has a medical issue, you call 911. Not the shaman. 👏
Now do one on the hidden risks of "sport".
please get a new jingle that cheese grater edm nevet really got me in the mood
Yeah the title is pretty misleading. Should say using psychedelics on meditation retreats can be dangerous
Great interview well done much respect for both of you. It would be interesting to also do research on the risks of people who "pray" vs "meditation what differs from those who meditate and those who pray- for example do praying Catholics or Christians also have risks- or what about the monastery monks that pray daily obsessively- this research would be beneficial and warrants some research too. ~
Refreshing. Tim your honesty has helped many of my therapy clients. Your courage is much needed in our society. Thanks. And great show and info…meditation is not for all!
I understand where this talk is coming from but the reality is that once again and like so many other things in life meditation is treated like fast food consumption for instant gratification. Psychedelics might be good for certain conditions, it is not meditation.
It is a trip to Neverland where one surrenders sovereignty of free will to external substances
Meditation is slow, arduous, and a way of life that can deliver wisdom to life’s experiences.
Of course the Dalai Lama chuckled. The West has turned the fields of yoga, meditation, and internal practices into a one to one commodity trade route.
Maybe it is time to look at forbidding meditation because people are not ready for the internal work of letting go of the addiction to suffering .
When one stays on the path long enough, one can greet unconditional love, compassion, forgiveness, wisdom, and yes, bliss.
Hmm....not sure about this episode.
I mean I get that Tim had a very powerful, negative experience and others have found meditation to have a negative impact on their lives. What wasn't exactly clear is whether it's the treatment or the trauma that's causing the symptoms because it seems like you're blaming the treatment, meditation. BUT then again, I've found it difficult to keep meditating for some reason. I haven't really be able to articulate it but something seemed off. Then again, is the discomfort part of the healing process. It's so difficult to know and it seems to subtle.
I found it interesting that they did a study on the negative impacts of meditation and I wish y'all would have discussed that more. I don't know, this seemed more of an episode for Tim, not for the rest of us.
Completely agree with this take. I'd like to see her on a podcast where she gets to lead the discussion
Finally. 🙏
Wow, this podcast might have helped me dodge a bullet! Thanks Willoughby for your work and research and Tim for your transparency
Psychedelics are taking the express elevator. Meditation is using the stairs. They both take you to the same place eventually…but if the power goes out, those who know where the stairs are and are in enough shape to use them will be laughing all the way up listening to the howls of the “express elevator only “ crowd trying duct tape and bailing wire to get one more glimpse of that view…
If you want to combine them, bring your own rope/fatty food/valium/Jack C/escape pod…not fair to expect the hosts to be prepared to rescue you from your overly exuberant or frankly hubris driven trip!
Extraordinarily useful info, much appreciated 🎉💜
*So, the bottom line is:* if someone is simply practising meditation to address one’s mental health, considering that it is ‘something’ that might help them - then they should practice it only for a few minutes per day (as Tim does: he says he finds it to be “incredibly helpful”). However, if someone takes the time to learn/understand the deep teachings of the Buddha that talk about the workings of the mind, etc. (which by the way are not mere beliefs) - then they can make mindfulness a part of their lives, and gradually cultivate peace, wisdom and contentment in life - this endeavour cultivates eudemonic happiness that goes beyond hedonic happiness one would cultivate to ‘get something’ out of mindfulness. Unfortunately, this conversation seems to be limited to gaining hedonic happiness.
Tim, awesome convo. I think Cheetah House & Dr Britton are doing great work, and it was a pleasant surprise to see this come up on my feed! The view of therapy, meditation, and psychedelics in the mainstream seems to have arched from dismissive to "silver bullet", and it's good to see a rising safety scene for all 3 emerge (though often conflated to be in the first skeptical camp)
Glad you're a strong part in moving us towards an integrated view of these things that acknowledges their power, holding both their potential for liberation & capacity to injure (& the subtle ways those things can sometimes be one and the same)
Thank you! Had the same thought around the "silver bullet". And the compounding of techniques, practices and frameworks in the pursuit of immediate, magnified results. The pace of life and expectations remove some from understanding their values and functioning from those values
Started meditating and now I am simply TOO enlightened!
And I just started loving and diving super deep into meditation. 🤦🏻♂️
Great conversation! I can see Smatic Experiencing influence in Willoughby approach. Thanks for your research and service 🙏
Love that book! “Put the puppy back on the paper”
But some people have had experiences much like those of NDEs in meditation, which exceeded those of high-dose psychedelics -- replete with leaving the body and a spontaneous kundalini awakening.
When a friend of mine took his first edible, he had very similar experience getting stuck in the VR experience. At first he thought that the level of focus and ability to think was improved hundreds of percents, but when he experimented with increasing the intake, he also had this kind of stuck VR experience that whenever a new thought arose, it felt like reality, slowly turning to surreal (no traumas though). Every new story felt very different from the previous one but still like reality turning to surreal with accelerating pace. He was concerned that he might not get out of that state of generating new (sur)realities, and he wouldn't be able to get back to safe, familiar, healthy state of mind. He wonders how common this is. Are there other whose friends might have experiences something like this?