Avoidant Personality Disorder & vulnerable narcissism
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- Опубліковано 18 тра 2024
- In this video I talk about the traits of vulnerable narcissism and how they relate to the traits of Avoidant Personality Disorder.
The lighting goes absolutely off the rails halfway through the video, so I apologize in advance for my blinding forehead. It was actually worse than it looks, this was the most I could save it lol. Thanks for watching!
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It’s fascinating how many of us have questioned if we’re displaying narcissistic behavior. After delving into the topic, we can see that we are not like that. However, I must admit that seeing our shared concern reassures me that I’m among like-minded individuals, all trying to understand what’s happening in our minds.
The biggest thing is with admiration. I don't crave it, it absolutely terrifies me. In a way, I think AVPD and its traits are like the inverse of narcissism, as instead of lashing outwards at others it's inwards.
This is a great point because although I do crave the validation, getting it makes me feel very uncomfortable and unworthy like I tricked people into giving it to me 😅🥲
MAXINE!!!! (Is it how you spell your name?) OMG!!!! You have no idea how this video comforts me. I constantly feel like I am a narcissist and this thought is hauting me. I'm so self absorbed in a way because I'm so weak that I always feel the need to protect myself and think of myself before others because of that. I also lie a lot to people and feel terrible but it's always to protect myself from shame or consequences. And lots of the things you mentioned as well...Anyways THANK YOU!!!!
Respect 💜
❤️🩹❤️🩹❤️🩹 I’m so glad this video brings you comfort 😊 it’s wild how many of us worry about this. But I think that just goes to show that we’re good people… that we’re struggling to cope, but still concerned about what that implies about us as far as how we treat others.
Professor (in the making), Maxine _{not being snarky, or condescending}_ 😊
I'm glad you picked this topic! Narcissism as a concept is being thrown around a lot nowadays, and it feels like such a trap for people with low self-esteem. It's one that I keep finding myself stumbling back into periodically.
A combination of overanalyzing our thoughts and behaviors, a tendency to believe negative things about ourselves, and a confusing amount of symptom overlap with many personality disorders are like a perfect storm for making sure that the nagging doubts never fully go away. Funnily enough, I'm sure most narcissists who are/were in our lives would LOVE for us to believe that it's actually us. I totally agree that they likely don't stop to wonder if they're narcissists, though, and I find that's what helps me most during periods of questioning myself.
I guess fixating on introspection can be a blessing and a curse! 😂
Yesss totally 😩
Oddly enough, I thought that person I dealt with had APD, but she checks too many boxes for covert narcissism and these types usually have avoidant attachment. So, yes. It's unfair for people with APD. I so hope my person has APD and ADHD, which is an odd thing to wish upon somebody, but I guess "pick the lesser of two evils" lol
You want to be loved and narc enjoys hurting other people. Triangulation to make themselves feel better. Blame shift is a MUST - ALWAYS!!!!
So you are not a narcissist, you are good to go :)))
I have avpd and have questioned this many times. But I always come back to the conclusion that I'm looking for the right answer on how to be a good human 'correctly', instead of "how do i get these people to bend at my will".
Absolutely 👏 it looks the same sometimes but the motivations are very different
Narcissistic in the sense of being "self-preoccupied," but I think the technical / clinical sense of "narcissism" refers to a cluster of personality traits that involve a dismissive attitude towards others, plus a kind of competitive envious edginess. Sort of like a different phenotype. As an NPD myself (and not proud of it), you don't seem to have that aggressive, envious, competitive edge, but in a looser sense of what it means to be self-preoccupied, I think a lot of people who don't feel "well adjusted" to the normie world will naturally end up falling into patterns of self-preoccupation. In my opinion, the word "narcissistic" is too fancy (like a lot of terms in psychology), and I do wish we could convert all psychobabble into more "ham (or even baloney) sandwich" terminology.
As usual i relate to this. Yea i asked myself if I'm narcissist many times cause those similarities. But the answer is r u hurting anyone or no . Also your emotions about what others may feel that's proof you're not narcissist cause i don't think narcissit has any emotions at all . ❤✌️
Yeah, I've always been empathetic, and as Maxine eluded, probably so empathetic, as to be to my own detriment... 👋 friend!
@@markaoslo5653 same
10:50 "unclear sense of self" I think for narcissists this means actual alexithymia - a strong boundary that prevents them from recognizing emotions in themselves other than maybe good, bad, anger etc., which also prevents them from empathizing with others. Don't confuse this with the difficulty of identifing emotions in real time because of the anxiety- or adhd- induced multitude of emotions overlapping - which can make it hard to identify emotions or falling into a panic induced fantasized vortex of them. pwNPD have a special blend of alexithymia so they basically only identify anger and feeling grandiose. I think a pwAVPD can tend to explore their own struggle with these kinds of emotions in their fantasies of idealized self whereas an actual narcissist would long have gone into psychotic loss of self. Even alexithymia in autists seems greatly different from NPD - Alexithymia since autists can empathize greatly but struggle with theory of mind/ cognitive empathy while for narcissists it seems just the other way around.
Oooo interesting and very helpful breakdown! Thank you for the insight ❤️ I lack personal identity but don’t struggle much to identify my emotions, typically. And even if I do, I’ll spend the time to stew in them long enough to figure it out. 😅
I have many times wondered if I'm a covert narcissist , especially given my extreme philosophical interests and snobbery, lol . But yeah, I don't think so.
These are traits that you find in many desorders the key thing to covert narcissists is the hidden superiority they feel among others and the ego strength that they take by pushing down others in order to balance their superiority
It isn t hidden to me it can t be. Superiority is there regardless theur low self esteem so they don t push down (anyone who stays w a disordered puts himself down by being there) they just ll prefer to lose themselves rather than help anyone. My experience, maybe the case u refer to took sad istic supply or it was just how you felt
*correction not superiority grandiosity is there but i don t think it s typical to push down purposufully. Does anyone notices the mess of the number of ppl w issues nowdays & the reason & where this leads objectively.. bcs i get it that it s good to accept our condition but maybe a child shows what a person needs/the truth of what healthy is (bcs i think it has been lost ^ forgotten & group of ppl just fight one another - or just try to deal w their issues
I don't think we are narcissist because narcissists doesn't question whether they are wrong or bad. So if we are questioning ourselves then I think that is an indicator that we are good people.
Not formally diagnosed but strongly suspect I qualify for AVPD. Have often wondered if I also fit the criteria for Covert Narcissism but, like you, don’t particularly relate to the final six points discussed. Glad I found your channel - Haven’t managed to find anyone else I relate to quite so much! ☺️
This is very interesting. I was actually diagnosed with parts of an anxiety disorder, avpd, and narcissism. Also thought that i was autistiv at some point in my life... Your videos makes a ton of sense to me..
I'm not officially diagnosed with AvPD (even though I'm diagnosed with ASD and ADHD) but I can relate a lot with probably all AvPD traits I've ever read about, and I recently learned about what is a vulnerable narcissism and could see some similarities with me because some AvPD traits and vulnerable narcissism traits seems to overlap... And after learning that I was really afraid of the possibility of me being some sort of narcisist, a vulnerable narcisist... and your video had such a calm, rational and reasoble approach that it made me feel a bit better and more secure about me probably not being a narcisist, so thank you for your video! I'm usually calm and rational to a lot of things but when it comes to things about myself personally I get easily insecure and I'm always afraid that every bad thing I ever wondered about myself could be true somehow, so I can't thank you enough. I've seen other videos on the subject and your video was one of the few that didn't stigmatized the whole thing, that gave careful thoughts on each items and approached them in a more human way.
🫶🫶🫶
I think it can be argued that almost any so-called personality disorder is rooted in some form of narcissism or narcissistic disturbance… or more simply formations which accrue around varieties complex trauma.
I think what really distinguishes true narcissism is the need to subconsciously hand off a sense of inferiority combined with the lack of awareness or empathy that would otherwise prevent it from dominating the personality. There is a certain narcissism in avoidant organization which could lead to manipulation, I don’t see it as targeting or (ab)using others in the characteristic fashion of the “classical” narcissist. Avoidants are closer to phobia-sufferers, in my opinion.
I want to add that self-focus is not synonymous with narcissism; realizing that others are *not* always focused on me and will typically forget things that embarrassed me was incredibly healing and relieving for me. An actual narcissist would be disturbed, depressed, or angered by that realization, or in complete denial about it. I was happy.
I think this came from the bullying in childhood. Like abusive parents, bullies are hyperfocused on every flaw you have, so you learn to be self-conscious.
@@WynneL yes, attention becomes synonymous with being targeted or negative attention (attack).
People I have known who qualify as ‘pathological’ narcissists seem to equate love with idealization and any divergence from that expectation as literal hatred.
People who shy, having been bullied, can be criticized as “narcissistic” but I think this is just as often a “narcissistic” form of attack, though there can be a narcissistic element in shyness at times.
In any event a lot of nuance is lost in discourse and “narcissism” is slippery signifier used by who-knows? to attack and stigmatize persons they may find revolting at some level. One does not have to be a pathological narcissist to feel unconscious threat or envy of another who appears to have or not have something one does not.
Growing up with parents who are deeply narcissistic can leave one with insecurities that can then be compounded encountering a critical surround and leave a person with quite understandable hesitation, indeed even a legitimate phobia to enter society.
Pathological narcissists have certain ways of defending the ego, develop special ways of processing “reality” that is toxic to those around them, in relationship…
Much complexity in the matter! Your perspective is appreciated.
I think similar to how you've described - 1-6, pretty common with the AvPD, (and me), and 7-12, may be some past, episodic, variable-aspect, yet it's not a dwelling place. I've had times (most were 10-20 years ago) where I was surprising to me, competitive, using _'social-engineering'_ (manipulation?), masking (ASD), 'lying', and what I experienced, and named, _"superior-inferiority",_ or _"Inferior-superiority"_ issues... You've used both, vulnerable, and covert, as narcissistic aspects - do we make a distinction? 💟 @btid... Well done, @Maxine 🙇
Great video Maxine thank you for sharing , love your art work and i will be buying a piece soon . Your channel is so helpful , Happy holidays soon to be :)).
😊❤️ thank you, happy holidays to you too!!
This is a broad generalization on my part and I’m no specialist, however I’ve heard it said that a true narcissist will almost never pose this question to themselves. They can’t possibly question their own behavior/motives- their fragile egos cannot handle inner reflection. I know you’re discussing vulnerable narcs in particular but my father was one, and trust -nothing was ever his fault and he was always the victim. No accountability or personal inventory whatsoever.
So in general, if you’re concerned you may be a narcissist of any kind, that’s probably a great indication that you aren’t.
Can we have narcissistic traits? Sure I think almost everyone has been guilty of that from time to time but enough to label yourself? Who has never projected onto someone before?
You’re clearly willing to change. Narcs are NOT
Again this is obviously just my opinion
And a lot if not all of these vulnerable traits are also hallmarks of maladaptive coping skills due to trauma and dysfunctional childhoods, etc etc.
While it’s great that we now know what a narcissist is (wish I’d known 40 years ago) , the term gets thrown around a LOT. Everyone’s ex is now a narcissist because they took an online quiz.
Sorry for my discombobulated rant but we beat ourselves up enough as it is. To the point of victim blaming ourselves
Very well said, I agree completely. I do come to that general conclusion (that if we’re worried about being a narcissist, that likely means we’re not) at the very end of the video but wish I had lead with that because I do think it’s a key factor to consider in our cases. ❤️
Another great video.
For me I expect to get criticised and as you said hate it and it makes me beat myself up about it and when it comes to praise/validation I feel really embarrassed and do not really believe them, I hate it and like it at the same time. When it comes to sense of self I really struggle with having any of that. When it comes to abandonment I try to limit the people I allow myself to really get to know beyond distant acquaintance. I agree with you, we can manipulate a situation (ie, ‘is that the time, I ought to go.’) or a way to avoid a situation, rather than try to guilt trip people etc. I too think most AVPD people are very good at empathy as they do not want to cause someone to get upset and hate them (not just saying that so you don’t hate me!). I tend to be envious of people in good relationships, but to really for anything else, and like it is just makes me feel worse. When it comes to trusting, I do really struggle with this a lot, and do not trust anyone much at all, as I expect them to let me down or hurt me.
When it comes to feeling normal, first I need to feel that I deserve to feel the same as everyone else.
Hope the Etsy store goes well. I live in the UK so postage is crazy, any other way we can support, without using the super thanks which takes 30% off what we give? Like a digital download?
I appreciate your openness ❤️ We do deserve as much as anyone else, and honestly… there are people out there actively hurting others to get to the top that don’t deserve a fraction of what they have and have never once worried about that. ☹️ That’s what I try to remind myself of.
The postage is so ridiculous 😭 The digital download idea is cool though… since I’m a graphic designer as well, maybe I can add a section to the Etsy shop with print-at-home graphics/posters relating to AvPD and the channel as a way to “donate” 😊
Your new Etsy store! Fantastic, so happy that you are creating and selling, woohoo! I really like the safety pin cyanotype, very cool!
Thank youuu 😊❤️
I also have thought about VN vs AVPD. I do not recognize many of the symptoms, but I spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about myself and relationships towards others I think it is natural to think of N, since they probably also use a lot of time thinking about themself, but then about how great they are. But one thing that triggers this question for me, is if I am in any kind of social gathering(usually work; where a small group has been responsible for icebreaking activities), that requires me to make a laugh of myself in front of others. I just can't. I freeze up, and do not know how to be either funny or relaxed. I feel completely worthless and just want to disappear. I even get a physical reaction, strongly in need of a shower after such events, which makes the rest of the day bad. I also spend a lot of time ruminating on the event; the question I ask myself is "do I take myself to seriously" or translated "Am I a VN?". It is kind of sad since my usual work is 1:1 or 1:small group that usually do not require such icebreaking skills of me.
I can totally fall victim to taking things and myself too seriously, and it’s one of my least favorite features of my personality. I wish I could just “lighten up.” But I think that’s a natural response to a childhood/life of stress - we’re on high alert all the time. Which is proven even more so through those physical reactions. 🫂❤️
What would your advice for people with avpd who What to be in romantic relationship /dating given that you've been in multiple relationships thanks
Those disorders are very, very different from each other. They are both personality disorders but not alike. Vulnerable narcs have NPD. Even though Vulnerable Narcissism isn't the personality disorder, NPD is. Avoidant is so different. Also,Yes, attention seeking in itself also does not mean NPD. There are many reasons why someone wants attention. Most attention seeking is normal. NPD is way more than just seeking attention. Narcs have a resistance to criticism too. Not just feeling sensitive to it.
Yep, most of this is said in the video actually ☺️👍 thank you for your thoughts!
Great video.
Do you feel during criticism or rejection, you lash out internally? At yourself I mean.
Oooo good question. I can’t actually recall or simulate what goes through my head when this happens because I feel like I go into flight mode and all I can think of is that I have to get out of there so I can cry by myself 😅 I guess after that point, the internal lashing out would come… the flood of negative thoughts, typically “you’re so stupid” on repeat for a while. 😬 Which is the case even when it’s a benign perceived failure, whether or not anyone else was even present to witness it.
I've been _'accused'_ and even concerned myself, about being a _'narcissist'_ even making the distinction, from the more well-known, malignant, overt, quite abusive, types... I'm not _'that',_ though looking back - I think I had the makings for it - it gives me pause, to wonder, if AvPD, might not be a correction, or diversion, to that?? In-part, where we tend to internalize, a sort of self-inverse-narcissistic-abuse?? (bare with, please - I'm trying to form a theory)... {if I get the drinking under better control, I might make better responses} - another thought is, perhaps, the harsher, more detrimental narcissism, might be AvPD _'forged'_ in deeper traumas?? a compounding, or modifying element... I'm open to ideas... Thanks, very much! Cheers-
Definitely much to consider ❤️
@@anxious_and_avoidant - _"fo-sho!!"_ 😉
Really interesting thoughts here to ponder. I also have been called a narcissist but I have GAD and CPTSD from what they tell me
@@staleyexplores - I have those, too... *sigh* - but-yeah! (poor Washburn, still waits for my attention...) Cheers-
Hi, I just came across your channel, subscribed, but your discord link is not working? Care to update it?
Hi, sorry! I thought the one I posted was permanent but **now** the one I'm posting is definitely permanent. 😅 hahaha
How about when your AV wife seeks the company of the neighbour and never tells you?
I think that's pretty narcissistic.
Yeah, having AvPD doesn’t mean everything you do is the direct result of the AvPD.
But also - the whole point of the video is how similar those 2 things can look. Perhaps you thought your wife was AvPD but she’s actually a narcissist. Or perhaps she feels unaccepted or abused by you (not justification for cheating of course, but potentially a reason). There’s not enough information to know from your comment alone.
@anxious_and_avoidant She is diagnosed Avoidant and currently in therapy. Never abused my wife (why would you think that)? I absolutely love my wife.
@@Apbt-rv7zw I don’t think that, it was one of a few possibilities I mentioned. My point is that I don’t know why she did that, it doesn’t really relate to my experience or anyone else I’ve spoken to with AvPD, so you may want to ask her. ❤️
@anxious_and_avoidant Yep, I did ask and she said it was her way of sabotaging the relationship. As an Avoidant she felt the pressure of being close was too much. In order to break the relationship, she felt she had to sabotage it by driving a wedge in between us.
Given that this is a concious action does it tend to be narcissism or is it still on the Avoidant spectrum?
@@Apbt-rv7zw Oh, interesting. I could see how that could come from an avoidant place (obviously she needs to continue therapy though, as that’s a *very* unhealthy way to go about that) because we definitely push people away when we’re feeling that pressure.
As far as whether or not it aligns with narcissism… I don’t know, but not all hurtful actions are indicative of narcissism. Did she express empathy or remorse for hurting you? That’s probably the biggest question. Because again, people can display “narcissistic” qualities or coping mechanisms without being a full-blown narcissist.
Either way, I’m sorry you’re going through that, and I hope you’re able to work it out in whatever way is going to be healthiest for you - whether that means working through her avoidance and hurtful behavior together, or leaving that relationship. Having AvPD myself, I would never fault someone for not seeing a relationship with one of through if they were being treated unfairly… we are disordered and that can inherently cause hurt if we aren’t careful, regardless of whether or not “narcissism” is relevant. And at the end of the day, it’s her responsibility to not knowingly cause hurt to her partner in the name of her avoidance. 😔❤️
Im lucky 13
Haven't watched the video yet but I'd say no you are not a narcissist
👋 friend! 👍
I think I can feel the empathy in your videos and I really appreciate that about you. Are you an empath? Have you looked at the enneagram? I like it way more than Myers Briggs. I'm a 6 for enneagram and I'd be interested to hear what you are on that front. Might be an idea for another video or couple of videos. We are all growing together here 💜.
@@markaoslo5653 you rock bud 🎸💜
@@staleyexplores 😊 ☮ 🎸
I am an enneagram 4w5 ☺️ will likely make a video about that eventually - I also prefer it to myers-Briggs honestly, I just assumed less people were familiar with the enneagram but the comments have proven that wrong 😅
And yes - empath, highly sensitive person, even “indigo child” are all terms I’ve heard that seem to fit the bill
what about when i let myself get manipulated even when i know its happening?
Oooo good question. I’m not sure, but I’ve definitely done this before. 😅 I think for me it’s partly a fawning reaction (better to get scammed than to cause upheaval by calling someone out) and also just my lack of future-planning ability (every decision I make is for the benefit of how I feel right now and the future consequences are for future-me to deal with as though she is a different entity altogether 🤣)
i am just laying here contemplating this and seeing how much i have let it happen in my life and to the degree that is letting a partner cheat on me just so they stay and then not being able to handle it and calling them another word for promiscuous.
then getting dumped for calling them that i mean i am literally in tears right now and reality is i cant even blame them i should have left a long time ago before it got to this but i wanted to be loved LOL
i mean thats not love right my self esteem is so low i let people use me ! then i get to say see you are a POS its a horrible place to be. 😭
Song: Black Flies · Ben Howard
@@noturbo ugh I’m so sorry you went through that, but you’re so right. We just want to be loved. I went through a similar situation as a young person, where I knew I was being cheated on but allowed myself to believe his (frankly, ridiculous lol) lies and excuses just because it still felt good that he “cared” enough about me (aka wanted me enough) to not just… leave me for the other women. 🥲 I don’t know if most people understand how detrimental low self esteem can be. 💔
@@anxious_and_avoidant Yes, its horrible and sorry also about what you went thru , big hug from me and thanks for the support 🥰 and your videos 🤗
@@anxious_and_avoidant well just inspired me to paint at 2am lol and come to the realization that i dont have to paint perfect i can paint messy like me not sure but the thing sure felt better i was in tune with all the emotions and listening to music and tears coming out sounds more like me than perfect lol , thank you INFP
Sorry Maxeen, but I don’t feel that you are struggling with vulnerable narcissism or bpd. We all can exhibit different behaviour and emotions but drivers behind those are completely different. I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist but I do receiving therapy for my mental health issues, and I many times asked my psychologist if am I bpd, but answer is always NO. My first therapist kept praising me, and yes, it’s felt good, but later on I didn’t want to continue with him, as I felt that he wasn’t genuine. I’m not a living saint, I’m a human with good and bad traits. I felt that I wasn’t talking much from our sessions, so I changed the psychologist, who challenges me at times, so I can reflect on my behaviour and taking something from our sessions. But Maxeen, I really don’t feel that you are suffering bpd. Thank you for your videos, I only find your channel today, so thank you.🙏
I think if you're wondering if you're a narcissist, you probably aren't
fisrt?? lol
😂👏
I don't think you are ego driven