Could be worth mentioning that the viscosity of the oil should be matched to the bearing clearance. This is especially important if you have very tight or very loose clearance. A high viscosity oil on an engine with tight clearances can produce problem just as a low viscosity oil on an engine with loose clearance. Now most engines are probably around 0.002” and will tolerate a pretty wide range of oil viscosity. Oil technology is a bit complex and the idea that higher (or lower) viscosity is automatically better is incorrect and might actually hurt your engine.
In my experience the oil accumulator will *maintain* oil pressure, after it is filled, if fitted correctly. The "fitting correctly" is something that could take yet another 44 minutes, at least, to discuss, and would undoubtably raise a bunch of arguments. Thanks for this video, as always.
Nice ideas in this webinar. Accusump systems don't allow oil surges, Andre. Principle is pretty simple: the accusump is connected to the oil circuit near where the factory pump outs the oil. When armed, the accusump is actually pushing oil in the circuit, say at x psi of pressure. But as the factory pump is pushing oil with more than x psi pressure, the oil actually doesn't left the accusump. At the very moment the factory pump pressure gets under x psi, the accusump pressure being higher, it pushes oil in the circuit, then compensating for the lack of pressure and insuring the oil pressure stays at worse at x psi, never less. It is a clever system, the only con is it has a limited capacity. If it has to rescue the oil pump too often it will get drained and helpless.
On a rotary there are 2 problems... the oil can slosh up along 1 side in an extended racing turn. I believe right hand turn is the biggest issue. The other is the pickup may not be super optimally located depending on which year engine. One solution is to get a baffle that goes between the pan and the engine. It acts as an air-oil separator (removes bubbles) by slowing the return down some. It also helps by keeping the oil down in the pan where it should be during racing. There are other, better, fancier pans not too different than what's talked about here. Some have built-in baffles. It all depends on what year engine you have.
Just paid for the tuning starter course. Idea is to tune my 13B when I've finished building it, as there is no one within almost 600km of me that can tune one. Would love to see more rotary content!
I feel oil accumulators should be used as insurance, after other measures have been taken to ensure oil pressure. I was sceptical about them until I saw one mounted in the Prodrive Isle Of Man car, where I'm sure they were doing everything they could in the sump department.
I hope that you payed attention to the pick up tube design and diameter, the OEM one is known to cause poor pump performance and cavitation. I went with the one made by Killer B which is a strait tube with a larger diameter.
You mention Motul 300V as the best oil according to Your experiences. But have You tried Bardahl XTC C60? In my experience, and according to many racers experience I spoke with, it is even better than 300V. There is even a friction test on UA-cam in which C60 can withstand higher friction load than 300V. I'll be glad to hear some feedback from You on this oil.
Other than the big block RX3 a few weeks ago and using NOS as anti-lag which has been covered a few times 😎. Have a bit of a search, there are so many videos now with a huge amount of topics hidden away in them - Taz.
i have yet to see the inside of a super sport bike oil pan...i wonder how these motorcycles do oil management while leaning and cornering at 100+ mph. good content as usual Andre and HPA crew💪
PANTYEATR1 I dont ride a bike, but I have a pretty good understanding of physics (actually going over this type of stuff right now). The whole objective of leaning over is to counteract the torque acted on the bike due to centripetal force...in other words you would tip over outside the turn unless you leaned in. Now think about holding a glass of water level in a car while going around a turn, the water will slosh to the outside of the turn. In order to avoid spilling, you would have to tip the glass, or 'lean' it into the turn, effectively leveling the water in the glass again. For this reason, I expect oil starvation to be much less of a problem for super bikes than you would think...the oil pan is also being tilted into the turn with the bike at close to the ideal angle for the oil (the water in the glass) to stay mostly leveled out in the pan. That being said, they still do experience some ridiculous acceleration in all directions so I bet they do have some pretty good oil pan/pickup design!
@@Thebadbeaver9 That is correct and indeed oil starvation is a huge problem for bike engined kit cars - the bike engine is simply not designed for lateral cornering forces. Only time oil starvation is a problem on a bike is when the front wheel is pointed at the sky.
Hi Andre if using an oil cooler, do you recommend a thermostat control. Also most thermostat 4 legged blocks seem to have small diameter fittings. Is there a brand or type of themo control you recommend. Lastly what size lines are best.
Thanks for the video, can the scavenge pumps get damaged at idle when not much oil mist is going through them? I mean can they start to run dry in a situation for example like being parked on an incline and idling?
what is the most important according to you? maximum oil temp (the one collected in the sump) or the temp fed to the bearings (temp after oil cooler). when you refer from 100 to 115°C, where is it taken?
you mentioned running 10W-40 instead of the spec'd 0W-20. So that sounds great when you're running on track and the oil temps gets hot. But what about cars that are pulling double duty and see cold starts and street driving with an oil cooler and therefore struggle to see oil temps above 80-85... are you risking the oil being too thick to get between the bearing and metal? And what about if you have your oil cooling setup done really well and not seeing temps of over 105-110? Thats very comfortably within spec of any modern synthetic oil, a lot of oem street cars see temps higher than that on the street when they don't have an oil cooler or a tiny oil to water donut type cooler... is there a need to step up to thicker oil for track duty in that case?
There are many different rubber compounds out there, just do your research to make sure whatever rubber you use is going to handle the temperatures and movement involved to avoid solving one problem only to cause another - Taz.
@@hpa101 I found this rubber gasket sheet locally that is specified to hold up to 120C. It doesn't really sound enough so I'll probably go safe and fabricate an aluminium gate. Thanks for the reply.
Oil viscosity like 10W40 or 0W20 is not a really valid reference for the bearing protection. real indicative value is HTHS viscosity (high temperature high shear), the value at 150ºC and under high stress, this is the useful value to define bearing protection. You can have a 5W40 and a 0W30 oils with the same HTHS value ( around 3.5 CSt). A 0W20 oil can be around 2.5 CSt, and become a problem at high temperature. Regards!
I’m going to give my 2 cents here, I’ve heard bad things about larger capacity oil pans with baffle plates. Meaning having more oil starvation problems than stock pans. Now if you have a high quality pan with trap doors it should be ok, but remember manufacturers spend a lot of money developing every component of an engine including oil sumps.
my engine(2zzge) came factory without baffles which in turn is one of the reasons the 2zzge rods have gone home from what i read on forums i swapped my oil pan from the less powered 1zzfe which for some odd reason came with a baffled oil pan from factory its a oem mod most people do as insurance from oil starvation from just driving normally through some back country roads
Good video, even if the out of sync' picture/sound makes my head hurt ;-) Worth having a heavy plate made up for the sump welding to prevent distortion - I was thinking a perimeter type that picked up the bolt holes but was open for internal welding? Clearance between the pickup and sump bottom should ALWAYS be checked - it's blown more than one engine. A big part of drainage problems from the head may be blow-by - most engines have the breather(s) incorporated in the cam' cover(s) and so the blow-by gases will be passing through the drainage passages AGAINST the oil draining back, and there will be more pressure from the sump. Not so much a problem with dry sumps, as a scavenge wafer, or two, can be dedicated for head drainage. MOROSO (and other manufacturers) make different sumps/oil pans for different applications for the same engine - not just the chassis which could be front, centre or rear sump, but oval track, drag, circuit, etc. Just make sure you get the one for how the engine is going to be used and what it's going to be used in - and check pickup clearance, some sumps come with pickups specifically designed for them and the OEM one won't work properly!
Love the content of these webinars. Would love to see the channel grow and get you more revenue. This 44 minute video could be broken up into three or four videos which I think the mob of UA-cam viewers would watch in greater numbers. I understand the time and commitment you put into these videos and am not meaning to critique, rather suggest to get more viewers that shorter videos with relevant titles be created. You could use the webinar footage for it. First was dry sump talk, then wet sump, then oil viscosity. Anyway if you find the time I'd like to think you'd surpass engineering explained for subscribers. Not to knock EE but it's much nicer to hear from a person or group of people who apply the knowledge they're sharing than someone who only theorizes information from a manufacturers release notes HPA being the former. Perhaps HPA would be a more technical version of Papadakis Racing. Thanks for the content.
How about k24 motors what would you recommend on them and plus I'm running a haltech platinum pro what sensor you recommend to help data log the pressure
What about a moist sump? basically the factory pressure pump, but the pickup is modified to go to an external tank with electric scavenges or a traditional mechanical scavenge
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Could be worth mentioning that the viscosity of the oil should be matched to the bearing clearance.
This is especially important if you have very tight or very loose clearance.
A high viscosity oil on an engine with tight clearances can produce problem just as a low viscosity oil on an engine with loose clearance.
Now most engines are probably around 0.002” and will tolerate a pretty wide range of oil viscosity.
Oil technology is a bit complex and the idea that higher (or lower) viscosity is automatically better is incorrect and might actually hurt your engine.
In my experience the oil accumulator will *maintain* oil pressure, after it is filled, if fitted correctly.
The "fitting correctly" is something that could take yet another 44 minutes, at least, to discuss, and would undoubtably raise a bunch of arguments.
Thanks for this video, as always.
how does the accumulator know when to inject oil into system ?
@@bigbothoee8617 Its pressurized to the oil pressure so when it drops the oil leaves the accumulator into the oiling system.
Nice ideas in this webinar.
Accusump systems don't allow oil surges, Andre. Principle is pretty simple: the accusump is connected to the oil circuit near where the factory pump outs the oil. When armed, the accusump is actually pushing oil in the circuit, say at x psi of pressure. But as the factory pump is pushing oil with more than x psi pressure, the oil actually doesn't left the accusump. At the very moment the factory pump pressure gets under x psi, the accusump pressure being higher, it pushes oil in the circuit, then compensating for the lack of pressure and insuring the oil pressure stays at worse at x psi, never less.
It is a clever system, the only con is it has a limited capacity. If it has to rescue the oil pump too often it will get drained and helpless.
On a rotary there are 2 problems... the oil can slosh up along 1 side in an extended racing turn. I believe right hand turn is the biggest issue. The other is the pickup may not be super optimally located depending on which year engine.
One solution is to get a baffle that goes between the pan and the engine. It acts as an air-oil separator (removes bubbles) by slowing the return down some. It also helps by keeping the oil down in the pan where it should be during racing.
There are other, better, fancier pans not too different than what's talked about here. Some have built-in baffles. It all depends on what year engine you have.
Just paid for the tuning starter course. Idea is to tune my 13B when I've finished building it, as there is no one within almost 600km of me that can tune one. Would love to see more rotary content!
I feel oil accumulators should be used as insurance, after other measures have been taken to ensure oil pressure. I was sceptical about them until I saw one mounted in the Prodrive Isle Of Man car, where I'm sure they were doing everything they could in the sump department.
Accumulators are good to flatten out those dips in oil pressure
No shame in using CAD(Cardboard aided Design) to design a oil-pan.
Lol I like that. I've always called it CardboardWorks
Best advice I have found on sump design thanks.
Glad it helped - Taz.
One thing I like about you taz if you don't no you say you don't no and not make up crap my hero
I hope that you payed attention to the pick up tube design and diameter, the OEM one is known to cause poor pump performance and cavitation. I went with the one made by Killer B which is a strait tube with a larger diameter.
Excellent work.
You mention Motul 300V as the best oil according to Your experiences. But have You tried Bardahl XTC C60? In my experience, and according to many racers experience I spoke with, it is even better than 300V. There is even a friction test on UA-cam in which C60 can withstand higher friction load than 300V. I'll be glad to hear some feedback from You on this oil.
love watching these videos . only problem is they never talk about NOS or big block engines
Other than the big block RX3 a few weeks ago and using NOS as anti-lag which has been covered a few times 😎. Have a bit of a search, there are so many videos now with a huge amount of topics hidden away in them - Taz.
i have yet to see the inside of a super sport bike oil pan...i wonder how these motorcycles do oil management while leaning and cornering at 100+ mph. good content as usual Andre and HPA crew💪
PANTYEATR1 I dont ride a bike, but I have a pretty good understanding of physics (actually going over this type of stuff right now). The whole objective of leaning over is to counteract the torque acted on the bike due to centripetal force...in other words you would tip over outside the turn unless you leaned in. Now think about holding a glass of water level in a car while going around a turn, the water will slosh to the outside of the turn. In order to avoid spilling, you would have to tip the glass, or 'lean' it into the turn, effectively leveling the water in the glass again. For this reason, I expect oil starvation to be much less of a problem for super bikes than you would think...the oil pan is also being tilted into the turn with the bike at close to the ideal angle for the oil (the water in the glass) to stay mostly leveled out in the pan. That being said, they still do experience some ridiculous acceleration in all directions so I bet they do have some pretty good oil pan/pickup design!
@@Thebadbeaver9 great reply !
@@Thebadbeaver9 That is correct and indeed oil starvation is a huge problem for bike engined kit cars - the bike engine is simply not designed for lateral cornering forces. Only time oil starvation is a problem on a bike is when the front wheel is pointed at the sky.
How many kilometers of use do these rubber trapdoors last?
Hi Andre if using an oil cooler, do you recommend a thermostat control. Also most thermostat 4 legged blocks seem to have small diameter fittings. Is there a brand or type of themo control you recommend. Lastly what size lines are best.
have you explored any of these concepts in a 4x4/offroad application? especially with sustained extreme angles common.
Thanks for the video, can the scavenge pumps get damaged at idle when not much oil mist is going through them? I mean can they start to run dry in a situation for example like being parked on an incline and idling?
This video is a few years old now, any chance anyone has a link to buy these rubber flaps in Australia or NZ? I’ve had no luck find anything online!
In murica the cosworth trap door is "discontinued"
what is the most important according to you? maximum oil temp (the one collected in the sump) or the temp fed to the bearings (temp after oil cooler). when you refer from 100 to 115°C, where is it taken?
boiling oil will damage it right? seems like you can overheat oil once and it will look and smell different immediately
Surprised you didn't use nord-lock/wedge-lovk locking washers for your oil baffle.
Looks like there is an audio/video de-sync at ~27-minutes. Sync's back up at 31 minutes
you mentioned running 10W-40 instead of the spec'd 0W-20. So that sounds great when you're running on track and the oil temps gets hot. But what about cars that are pulling double duty and see cold starts and street driving with an oil cooler and therefore struggle to see oil temps above 80-85... are you risking the oil being too thick to get between the bearing and metal?
And what about if you have your oil cooling setup done really well and not seeing temps of over 105-110? Thats very comfortably within spec of any modern synthetic oil, a lot of oem street cars see temps higher than that on the street when they don't have an oil cooler or a tiny oil to water donut type cooler... is there a need to step up to thicker oil for track duty in that case?
If your car is doing double duties you might just have to change the oil and filter before and after you track days cheap insurance really
At every 10*C above 100*C the oil degrades 50% faster, my understanding that you want to keep the oil between 85 to 90*C
Mercedes oil thermostat opens at 105c
Are those rubber flaps special in some way that would prevent me from just buying a sheet of rubber and fit it with ribbons?
There are many different rubber compounds out there, just do your research to make sure whatever rubber you use is going to handle the temperatures and movement involved to avoid solving one problem only to cause another - Taz.
@@hpa101 I found this rubber gasket sheet locally that is specified to hold up to 120C. It doesn't really sound enough so I'll probably go safe and fabricate an aluminium gate. Thanks for the reply.
Oil viscosity like 10W40 or 0W20 is not a really valid reference for the bearing protection.
real indicative value is HTHS viscosity (high temperature high shear), the value at 150ºC and under high stress, this is the useful value to define bearing protection.
You can have a 5W40 and a 0W30 oils with the same HTHS value ( around 3.5 CSt). A 0W20 oil can be around 2.5 CSt, and become a problem at high temperature.
Regards!
I’m going to give my 2 cents here, I’ve heard bad things about larger capacity oil pans with baffle plates. Meaning having more oil starvation problems than stock pans. Now if you have a high quality pan with trap doors it should be ok, but remember manufacturers spend a lot of money developing every component of an engine including oil sumps.
But they are designed for general road driving, not track or performance.
my engine(2zzge) came factory without baffles which in turn is one of the reasons the 2zzge rods have gone home from what i read on forums i swapped my oil pan from the less powered 1zzfe which for some odd reason came with a baffled oil pan from factory its a oem mod most people do as insurance from oil starvation from just driving normally through some back country roads
yeah most manufacturers i dont think are thinking too hard about pans, cheap stamped pieces
Good video, even if the out of sync' picture/sound makes my head hurt ;-)
Worth having a heavy plate made up for the sump welding to prevent distortion - I was thinking a perimeter type that picked up the bolt holes but was open for internal welding?
Clearance between the pickup and sump bottom should ALWAYS be checked - it's blown more than one engine.
A big part of drainage problems from the head may be blow-by - most engines have the breather(s) incorporated in the cam' cover(s) and so the blow-by gases will be passing through the drainage passages AGAINST the oil draining back, and there will be more pressure from the sump. Not so much a problem with dry sumps, as a scavenge wafer, or two, can be dedicated for head drainage.
MOROSO (and other manufacturers) make different sumps/oil pans for different applications for the same engine - not just the chassis which could be front, centre or rear sump, but oval track, drag, circuit, etc. Just make sure you get the one for how the engine is going to be used and what it's going to be used in - and check pickup clearance, some sumps come with pickups specifically designed for them and the OEM one won't work properly!
Love the content of these webinars. Would love to see the channel grow and get you more revenue.
This 44 minute video could be broken up into three or four videos which I think the mob of UA-cam viewers would watch in greater numbers.
I understand the time and commitment you put into these videos and am not meaning to critique, rather suggest to get more viewers that shorter videos with relevant titles be created. You could use the webinar footage for it. First was dry sump talk, then wet sump, then oil viscosity.
Anyway if you find the time I'd like to think you'd surpass engineering explained for subscribers. Not to knock EE but it's much nicer to hear from a person or group of people who apply the knowledge they're sharing than someone who only theorizes information from a manufacturers release notes HPA being the former. Perhaps HPA would be a more technical version of Papadakis Racing.
Thanks for the content.
How about k24 motors what would you recommend on them and plus I'm running a haltech platinum pro what sensor you recommend to help data log the pressure
10 bar pressure sensor... just whatever
Was that a red top sr20det in the opening shot?
Yes, that’s a red top oil pickup. And I recommend not using them and switching to a black top or notch top oil pickup.
@@griplimit I've eard that the redtop ones even fall apart.
What about a moist sump? basically the factory pressure pump, but the pickup is modified to go to an external tank with electric scavenges or a traditional mechanical scavenge
why not a slighty damp pump? with the pump completely disassembled and semt to the corners of the world while you run your motor with no oil pressure?
Sound issues
The audio out of sync reminds me of english dubbed Chinese movies. A few words = numerous lip movements🤔
OMG you guys need to ease up lol I can't keep up with the vids I'm 3 vids behind I'm trying to take in every little thing
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ua-cam.com/video/sB6HY8r983c/v-deo.html - Haley's Seven Nation Army, with PostModern Jukebox.