Adapting my own Greyhawk campaign world, I created four additional demi-human kingdoms: The Vesve, which was a Tolkienesque Mirkwood and the homeland of elves in my campaign, the Celadon Forest which was another elven kingdom, the entire Lortmil Range was a mountain dwarf kingdom, and the majority of the Rakers was a significant Dwarven kingdom with a great city akin to Moria in the center. Seeing as dwarves and elves tended to live in mountains/forests, it made sense to center their cultures in these regions. I also changed many of the nations you mentioned, greatly reducing the human populations, and increasing the demi-human populations; for example, the County of Ulek had well over 25,000 halflings and the Principality of Ulek 20,000 gnomes, with the County of Ulek acting as the de facto homeland of halflings. I figured humans had enough of their own nations, and demi-humans needed something that reflected the core of their own separate cultures where they were supreme.
I love your lore for Gryrax with humans handling naval matters for the Principality of Ulek. Medieval Constantinople had a city within a city for the Venetian traders living among the Byzantines. Similarly, I imagine a strong dwarvish fortress overlooking the human run naval port handling trade and shipping for the dwarves, that prefer the comfort of their stone halls.
I don't know how, but your last few videos have been on subjects of great interest to me! So thank you for this. Many of my players liked demi-human character races, and there was almost never a campaign that didn't visit, or work for Hughfolk, Celene, or those Kron Hills' miners. Great memories, man - again, I thank you.
It's so funny to me the idea that someone needs to work to keep "Greyhawk" alive, 'cos to me Greyhawk is THE D&D setting. But then I remember it's been basically forgotten for 10 years, and that it was only the watered-down version that served as the basic setting in D&D 3e. You're doing a great job!
Sunndi has an elven ruler as well: “His Brilliant Lordship, Count Hazendel of Sunndi; Olvensteward of the South.” Many more humans, but a high gray elf population.
Request: would love for you to do a series in later-published materials, such as Iuz and his realm; Ivid and the Aerdy, and particularly the Scarlet Brotherhood supplement. That’s one I’d like to see happen because it was the first supplement since that 80s that markedly expanded the map, with consideration of Hepmonaland and the Olman and Tuov races. Another area would be the Sea of Dust. My PCs are currently adventuring there, me having placed the “Desert of Desolation” series there.
I would view primarily human realms ruled by demi-humans like Dale-Esgaroth and Erebor... yes, the towns surrounding the Lonely Mountain were men, but no one contested the power and authority of the King Under the Mountain. (Hating to use the Tolkien reference as I agree with you on the Spindrift Isles being too Tol Eressea to be tasteful. )
You underestimate the demi-human population of those realms. The gold box guide mentions that "where populations are given for demi-human and humanoid groups, the figures reflects fighting males only, as more complex data is unavailable" (p. 18). On page 3 of the glossography, it says that males fit to bear arms represent 20% of a human population, so if we apply that same number to demi-human populations, they would have to be multiplied by 5 to be somewhat accurate. That said, we don't know the actual proportion of fighting males for demi-human populations, which might very well be different from humans, given their different demographics. But, at least, I think it would be fair to say that the demi-human populations given in the guide are no more than half of the actual populations.
The elven ethnic cleansing of Lendore isle is certainly a shameful moment in TSR and WotC lore crafting, but likely has everything to do with purging ties to Gygax which included his friend Len Lakofka. Not only is it a disgusting storyline, but it wouldn't even have been possible for an outnumbered population of elves to accomplish such a feat across the ocean against the many powerful rulers of Lendore.
In the Ulek states, it's likely that even though the humans are more numerous, they are concentrated in a smaller settlements (i.e. large settlements). That is exemplified in what you shared about the Principality of Ulek.
Would the Valley/Vale of the Mage count as a Demi-human realm? According to the Gold Box, it has a population of 10000(?) With possibly elves and Gnomes. Skipping to 2nd edition's Vale of the Mage, we get a clearer picture: estimated population of 10000, but really is about 1200 gnomes, 800 humans, and 4000 Valley Elves (not mentioning the singular Drow), with the less than 1000 Barrier Peaks Mountain Dwarves not being counted. It's run by a human mage, but humans are a minority.
"Valley Elves" Do they wear designer robes and have repetitive speech patterns such as "OMG! Gag me with a spoon!" Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually, I think there are are too many types of elves in later versions of D&D.
@@jamesnell1999 Well, to be fair, it is widely thought they are basically a variety of Grey Elf (the magic-focused "purest" of elves), but they see less uptight than their cousins; sharing their valley with Gnomes and humans. They're also, according to Unearthed Arcana, the only Surface Elf that isn't immediately hostile towards the Drow, merely having antipathy towards them. Elves are, and have almost always been one of the most headache-inducing species in D&D just from trying to remember how many varieties there are...and weirdly the varieties have actually dropped since the shift away from Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off of 3.X to Nintir Vale in 4e and Ed Greenwood's kinkfest..I mean Forgotten Realms in 5e.
When the book gave a number for demi-human (Or humanoid) population, that indicated the number of warriors. When it was more ambiguous, it referred to a percentage of the total population.
I would consider it like this If a number is not given, or does it say so much as “few” which would be 5% or less, it is 1% or less of the population So for the Principality of Ulek, Gnomes are like ~300 in number
As a general rule, Half Elves are considered by Elves to be Human, and by Humans to be Elves, so it depends on the ruler of an area which they are counted as.
That tends to break down when there are enough 1/16th elfs. If you act like an elf, dress like an elf, and talk like an elf, all but the hardcore "blood & soil" crowd will just call you an elf, or maybe an f'n elf. 😆
FroM what little I know, there’s also a significant number of demo-human realms “beyond the Flanaess”, but there’s such little official material on it it’s irrelevant at this point.
Historically, minorities often ruled much larger subject peoples. Think the Manchus in China; the Mughals or Delhi Sultans in India; the Manchus in China; or White Europeans everywhere. So this is not really an unusual situation, though obviously you're talking species here.
There are strong academic arguments that fascism can in any HUMAN society given the right conditions. But among Elfs... that's just a mean-spirited "buzz-kill".
Adapting my own Greyhawk campaign world, I created four additional demi-human kingdoms: The Vesve, which was a Tolkienesque Mirkwood and the homeland of elves in my campaign, the Celadon Forest which was another elven kingdom, the entire Lortmil Range was a mountain dwarf kingdom, and the majority of the Rakers was a significant Dwarven kingdom with a great city akin to Moria in the center. Seeing as dwarves and elves tended to live in mountains/forests, it made sense to center their cultures in these regions. I also changed many of the nations you mentioned, greatly reducing the human populations, and increasing the demi-human populations; for example, the County of Ulek had well over 25,000 halflings and the Principality of Ulek 20,000 gnomes, with the County of Ulek acting as the de facto homeland of halflings. I figured humans had enough of their own nations, and demi-humans needed something that reflected the core of their own separate cultures where they were supreme.
I love your lore for Gryrax with humans handling naval matters for the Principality of Ulek. Medieval Constantinople had a city within a city for the Venetian traders living among the Byzantines. Similarly, I imagine a strong dwarvish fortress overlooking the human run naval port handling trade and shipping for the dwarves, that prefer the comfort of their stone halls.
I don't know how, but your last few videos have been on subjects of great interest to me! So thank you for this. Many of my players liked demi-human character races, and there was almost never a campaign that didn't visit, or work for Hughfolk, Celene, or those Kron Hills' miners. Great memories, man - again, I thank you.
It's so funny to me the idea that someone needs to work to keep "Greyhawk" alive, 'cos to me Greyhawk is THE D&D setting. But then I remember it's been basically forgotten for 10 years, and that it was only the watered-down version that served as the basic setting in D&D 3e. You're doing a great job!
Very timely video, my characters are in Gryrax right now. Thanks!
Grognard your content is always informative I enjoy watching so much.
Sunndi has an elven ruler as well: “His Brilliant Lordship, Count Hazendel of Sunndi; Olvensteward of the South.” Many more humans, but a high gray elf population.
I've been waiting with bated breath for you to do a video on this very subject, and you didn't disappoint. Thank you
Excellent video, appreciate how you highlighted the weird population stats for the “demi-human” Ulek realms. Nice attention to detail.
Enjoy your Greyhawk lore immensely. Good work!
Request: would love for you to do a series in later-published materials, such as Iuz and his realm; Ivid and the Aerdy, and particularly the Scarlet Brotherhood supplement. That’s one I’d like to see happen because it was the first supplement since that 80s that markedly expanded the map, with consideration of Hepmonaland and the Olman and Tuov races.
Another area would be the Sea of Dust. My PCs are currently adventuring there, me having placed the “Desert of Desolation” series there.
What did Leonard Kafka ever do to Carl Sargent or at least those in charge of TSR at that time?
Leonard Lakofka...and what he did was have a friendship with Gary Gygax, so that was probably enough.
I would view primarily human realms ruled by demi-humans like Dale-Esgaroth and Erebor... yes, the towns surrounding the Lonely Mountain were men, but no one contested the power and authority of the King Under the Mountain.
(Hating to use the Tolkien reference as I agree with you on the Spindrift Isles being too Tol Eressea to be tasteful. )
You underestimate the demi-human population of those realms. The gold box guide mentions that "where populations are given for demi-human and humanoid groups, the figures reflects fighting males only, as more complex data is unavailable" (p. 18). On page 3 of the glossography, it says that males fit to bear arms represent 20% of a human population, so if we apply that same number to demi-human populations, they would have to be multiplied by 5 to be somewhat accurate. That said, we don't know the actual proportion of fighting males for demi-human populations, which might very well be different from humans, given their different demographics. But, at least, I think it would be fair to say that the demi-human populations given in the guide are no more than half of the actual populations.
Cool, yes demihuman realms can be great fun. The diplomats of the Troll King have arrived!
Oh definately!
Betwen Highfolk and Ulek I didn't realized the great druids were so into poitics.
The elven ethnic cleansing of Lendore isle is certainly a shameful moment in TSR and WotC lore crafting, but likely has everything to do with purging ties to Gygax which included his friend Len Lakofka. Not only is it a disgusting storyline, but it wouldn't even have been possible for an outnumbered population of elves to accomplish such a feat across the ocean against the many powerful rulers of Lendore.
Yes. That must be a way to officially remove that abomination.
@@jamesnell1999 Stay tuned to the Lakofka archive material. We've got something that will address it.
In the Ulek states, it's likely that even though the humans are more numerous, they are concentrated in a smaller settlements (i.e. large settlements). That is exemplified in what you shared about the Principality of Ulek.
Would the Valley/Vale of the Mage count as a Demi-human realm? According to the Gold Box, it has a population of 10000(?) With possibly elves and Gnomes. Skipping to 2nd edition's Vale of the Mage, we get a clearer picture: estimated population of 10000, but really is about 1200 gnomes, 800 humans, and 4000 Valley Elves (not mentioning the singular Drow), with the less than 1000 Barrier Peaks Mountain Dwarves not being counted. It's run by a human mage, but humans are a minority.
"Valley Elves" Do they wear designer robes and have repetitive speech patterns such as "OMG! Gag me with a spoon!" Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually, I think there are are too many types of elves in later versions of D&D.
@@jamesnell1999 Well, to be fair, it is widely thought they are basically a variety of Grey Elf (the magic-focused "purest" of elves), but they see less uptight than their cousins; sharing their valley with Gnomes and humans. They're also, according to Unearthed Arcana, the only Surface Elf that isn't immediately hostile towards the Drow, merely having antipathy towards them.
Elves are, and have almost always been one of the most headache-inducing species in D&D just from trying to remember how many varieties there are...and weirdly the varieties have actually dropped since the shift away from Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off of 3.X to Nintir Vale in 4e and Ed Greenwood's kinkfest..I mean Forgotten Realms in 5e.
When the book gave a number for demi-human (Or humanoid) population, that indicated the number of warriors. When it was more ambiguous, it referred to a percentage of the total population.
Surprised you didn’t include the Vale of the Mage and its predominant Valley Elf population.
I would consider it like this
If a number is not given, or does it say so much as “few” which would be 5% or less, it is 1% or less of the population
So for the Principality of Ulek, Gnomes are like ~300 in number
Lortmill for dwarves?
Have you done a video on humanoid realms?
Not yet!
As a general rule, Half Elves are considered by Elves to be Human, and by Humans to be Elves, so it depends on the ruler of an area which they are counted as.
That tends to break down when there are enough 1/16th elfs. If you act like an elf, dress like an elf, and talk like an elf, all but the hardcore "blood & soil" crowd will just call you an elf, or maybe an f'n elf. 😆
FroM what little I know, there’s also a significant number of demo-human realms “beyond the Flanaess”, but there’s such little official material on it it’s irrelevant at this point.
I'd love to know the source for their being "a significant number of demi-human realms beyond the Flanaess".
Historically, minorities often ruled much larger subject peoples. Think the Manchus in China; the Mughals or Delhi Sultans in India; the Manchus in China; or White Europeans everywhere. So this is not really an unusual situation, though obviously you're talking species here.
No GNOMES !
🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
Agreed they ruined the L series. Good session. And NO humanoids are humanoids and demi-humans are demi-humans! 😁
Really fascists Elves? Now I know why I didn't buy From the Ashes. lol
There are strong academic arguments that fascism can in any HUMAN society given the right conditions. But among Elfs... that's just a mean-spirited "buzz-kill".
P.S. I "disbelieved" and made my roll.