The Invention of RIMS®
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- This is the third video with Gary Gauger detailing the principles of drum suspension and isolation. Here he discusses the first RIMS® mount, and how inventing is mostly about fully understanding the problem you are trying to solve.
Brilliant analysis. Thanks for sharing. Gauger systems rock !
Thank you!
So glad you have made this round of 2016 videos!
Like Gary's comments understanding the problems can lead to multiple inventions👍
Great and interesting information, thanks!
Does the black plated steel have the same problem as chrome plating?
What is your opinion on Tama's aluminium Starcast mounting system?
The rims mount connects to the tension rod which transfers stress to the lug which transfers to the shell though. The only way to get the stress off the shell is to mount on a snare stand and not tighten too much
Because setups with 3-4 rack toms work so well with snare stands only
@@ledzeppelinfan12344 it doesn't work with rims either, unless you don't mind your toms being 6 inches apart from eachother.
Very useful!
I had exactly the same problem with 12 inch tom. I had generic Taiwanese chrome plated and changed to Gaugers. I called Mr. Gauger. He was very interested in knowing the context, type of shell and what issues I was experiencing. After installing Gauger rims, the drums really sound fantastic. The pitch is clear, and sustain is incredible. I play a custom build single ply walnut set, it does sound fantastic. It sounds similar to the Craviotto maple set on video clip by the Memphis drum shop, except that the sound is darker and smoother. It is pure rush to play that set.
Thanks for your comments!
And if you mount from the bottom it resonates and takes even more stress off the drum. I can prove this. Gauger Rims rule!
Can this be done with old style RIMS mount made of steel and chrome plated? I have a 1988 Gretsch kit that came with these from new. Is the bottom head set up allowed/recommended by Gauger?
@@johnschweiger6486 no. Because the chrome plated steel rims vibrate or ring to much and can cancel out the sound of your tom. That's why Gary used aluminum because it does not resonate.
thanks for this! do any of these use your design or are they bad knockoffs? Gretsch Renown, Gretsch Catalina jazz...Sonor force series
Hi Michael, thanks for the question. None of the major companies use our RIMS® mounts. They have all decided to come up with their own version of a suspension system, and none of them adhere to the basic principles Gary has identified in terms of supporting the drum without placing pressure on the shell. Gretsch used to use a knock-off steel 'RIMS® Style' mount that at least held the drum at two points 180 degrees from one another, but I believe they have since moved entirely to their own system that holds the drum by two lugs off its center of gravity and places stress on the shell.
How do the DW STM mounts compare to this?
While they are maybe one of the least bad versions of a "RIMS®-Style" mount, they aren't great. They are flimsy, and only fit on DW drums. Since they only fit DW drums, it's hard to judge their overall effectiveness on drums in general. Whatever someone thinks of the DW sound, it's our opinion that they are not very resonant, open sounding drums. Their lugs are so massive and heavy and they absorb a lot of resonance before they mounting system even comes into play. We have had drummers switch to RIMS® on DW drums and they have been happy with the results, however we provide RIMS® way more often for drummers using Yamaha, Pearl, Ludwig, Mapex, etc.
@@adamodieg My visual impression is that the DW STM mounts would not hinder the resonance and most the weight is on the two end holders, apposite sides of the drum. So the only thing I worry about is that they are coated metal and may be doing the phase cancellation. I agree that most DW drum sound quite dead. It is the wood the shells are made out of. I am having a custom made Contemporary Classic kit made. Mahogony poplar and an outer ply of maple instead of more Mahogony. Hopefully they will sound awesome with Dunnett heads on them. If I end up with any dead sounding drums, I will check the sound without the STM holding them to see if there is this phase issue.
Yep, all good stuff..
Great video!! This makes a lot of sense as to why drums resonate differently based on different mounts. What do you think about certain systems like the Ludwig Atlas Mount or INDe mount which are just replacement lugs? I'm considering switching from the GTS tom mounts on my Gretsch Catalina Maple 7-piece (which are a bit different different from the Renown RN2's GTS system) to something a bit more low profile since I'm using 2 or 3 rack toms most of the time and I like the look of the Ludwig Atlas mount the best. From what I've heard from users, they say that the Atlas mount really helps with the sustain on the drum as it puts no more tension on the shell than the lugs already do and thus allows the drum to resonate more. Is that true? Or should I stick with the current Gretsch GTS system?
Hi Jake, Thanks for your question.The Atlas mount puts a great deal of stress on the shell. We recommend checking out our other video here where we do a pressure test and measure the amount of stress the Atlas mount places on the shell. It's 48 pounds of force on a 12" drum that weighs 6 pounds. It only goes up from there with larger diameter, heavy drums, and that's before you actually start hitting the drum. If you don't hold the drum by its center of gravity the way a RIMS® mount does, there is no way to not place a great deal of stress on the drum shell. If you mount it where a lug normally goes, like Atlas or Inde, you are putting a lot of stress where the drum shell is actually weakest; at the top or bottom of the shell. Simply put, these mounts are the worst mounts for drums, along with the Sakae mount which held the drum by 2 lugs at the bottom of the shell. The drummers we have heard from regarding these mounts have mentioned that the isolation it provided only lasted for a short period of time, and their drums became untunable, as it only isolates the drum if it is tuned to a very specific frequency, so you get no range out of the drum. Also, their effectiveness depends a great deal on the type of surface/floor your stand is sitting on.
@@adamodieg Thank you for the reply!! I just watched the video on shell pressure and I don't think any of us were prepared to realize how much pressure is actually on the shell with an Atlas mount. I'm sure there is a small difference between certain factors of the shell, for example the density of the wood and the types of hoops, but after seeing that video it probably doesn't have much of an effect, maybe 2 or 3 fewer pounds of pressure but on a 12x8 inch tom, your rule of thumb for measuring the radius of the shell times the weight is still a lot (somewhere around versus 48 with die cast hoops). I knew that the amount of hardware mounted to a shell could affect the resonance but I didn't realize that the pressure exerted in some cases can change the shape of the shell over time. Since my kit is a Gretsch kit with 5 lugs on each of the toms, the GTS system goes slightly further around the shell than a 12 inch tom with 6 lugs, but as you said, that difference is probably minimal, but still much better than the Atlas mount since it is a looser fit going around 2 lugs and dispersing the weight rather than all the weight tightly secured on 1 lug with all the weight at the same point. I'm a big fan of keeping the shell as resonant as possible so I can add any needed dampening over time, so I guess for now I'll keep my GTS mounts on my Catalina Maple kit but if I ever go for a higher end kit, I will make sure I'm using a mounting system that doesn't risk damaging shells, like your RIMS mount or the RIMS-style equivalent from Gretsch or Gibraltar. Thanks!!
@@JakeStaffin Yes, anytime you mount the drum off of its center of gravity, like Atlas or GTS, it's going to be a trade off in how the stress is applied. The Atlas (as well as other systems like YESS, etc) Place a great deal of stress in a concentrated area of the shell. The GTS (and others like OptiMount, Mapex mounts, etc) are less concentrated, but there is stress placed on a greater area of the shell. Not really better in any way, as both ways can have their own negative effect. I think the way we look at it, is that the drum seems to be the only instrument where we find it ok to place unnecessary stress on the resonating body, and we feel it has held the instrument back in how resonant it can be. I can't think of another instrument where this would be considered acceptable by the people that make the instrument. Thank you for checking out the videos! Also, keep an eye out on your shell if you're using that GTS mount. That rubber bumper is very pointed and pushes in on the shell. It can start to scuff/damage the finish on the drum after a while.
@@adamodieg Thanks for the tip!! My Gretsch Catalina Maple is lacquered (walnut glaze), not sure if that changes anything but I have yet to notice any marks in the 4 years I've had the kit. Can't necessarily say the same for the older Catalina club kits that my college's percussion department owns, both the wrapped ones and the lacquered one have a few scuffs from longtime use. As someone who has a hobby of building and restoring drums I always want to make sure I'm taking care of the drums since they are musical instruments. I fixed an old Pearl tom with a Keller maple shell last year, I put one of Pearl's direct-to-shell tom mounts on it since there was already a big hole in the side from where one used to be. Heightwise, the mounting hole was much closer to the center of the shell height than most drums I've seen, but then again it is a rather uncommon 14x10 drum from the early 90's. I'm sure the shell tension is in a different location and probably more spread out because it is closer to the center, but the issue of a 7/8 inch tom arm going through the shell probably does a noticeable lot to affect the resonance depending on how deep it goes. But as you said in your other videos, that is one of many factors that can affect resonance. Yamaha has their YESS system that many swear by but the horizontal holes definitely do a lot to change it as well. Almost makes me think that one is to go with direct-to-shell mounted hardware, it might be safest to go with something that has an even vertical spread placed directly in the center of the height and with an L arm for mounting (like what Gretsch does with their new USA Custom and Broadkasters as an option) so there isn't an extra piece of metal going through the shell, and being closer to the center height wise takes away the issue that the Ludwig Atlas mount has of being too high up on the shell for even weight dispersing. But of course, that will sound drastically different from something like a RIMS system, or Tama's unique StarCast mount on their STAR drums, or putting the drum in a snare basket which is a whole different world, or anything else. I guess for me, the option that allows the drum to resonate as freely as possible without too much tension bundled into one area is probably the most ideal. This is a very cool topic to explore, I'm very happy I stumbled upon your videos and was able to have this discussion with you!!
I own a set of rims I need to find out where to get a replacement head
If you have a Purecussion Rims set that uses pretuned heads, Remo will custom make them. There are a few that Lone Star percussion carries, and a few on Ebay. I know you posted that a year ago, and I hope you found the replacement heads before now :) If not there you go :)
Thanks for Sharing;
I have been refinishing drums for years (yes shells) and this year I will build some staves. With the info from GP, I will try to make my own mounts and perhaps very little shell. Its all wide open to experiment and thats what makes it so fun. For toms, I would like to try a wooden hoop attached to a wooden support rim. This support rim would be glued onto the stave shell; hence, its part of the shell. Perhaps 1.5" from the batter side beveled edge. With the info from GP, it sounds bad to put on a support ring. I also considered wooden lugs which would be less surface contact with the shell. Would anyone have any thoughts on this or would like to know about it when complete?
Also, I have had a purecussion set since the 80s and still play them. They are purefect for me :) Though I may be a simple man, I think they sound as good and better then many shell drums and easier to tune & muffle one batter head then both batter & reso. I admit to being stuck in the 70s and using only batter side drums. We all took the reso sides off back then. I will add that they are plenty loud without the shells. If you mic top side when you play out, its a great option to have rimless, suspension mounted drums.
Again, thanks for Sharing
Thank you, Glenn. I (Gary's son) also use a Purecussion Headset at home, and often for gigs as well. It sounds amazing and drummers are always surprised when they look at it, then hear the sound coming out of it. Great tuning range on them as well. Shells certainly add a lot to a drum's sound, but a properly tensioned and mounted head is pretty amazing on its own.
Too bad the cost of carbon fiber is prohibitive - I'd like to see and hear the results. Incidentally, chrome plate a cymbal (I know someone who did) or powder coat a cymbal and observe the sonic difference. Huge.
So why are Companies like ludwig still using a vibra chrome band ?
Hi Mike. For the most part, it comes down to cost. Steel is a great deal cheaper than aluminum, and chrome plating is also cheap. When Gary licensed RIMS® to Purecussion in the 80's, that was before he knew any of these things about steel vs aluminum and the effects of chrome plating. He wanted to make changes to make RIMS® work better, but Purecussion did not want to make those changes because they were expensive. The Vibraband is made very cheaply overseas, and it works very poorly. They usually don't fit the drum's diameter very well, so it ends up pulling or pushing on the tension rods, and the chrome plated steel transfers the drum's vibrations.
Speaking of tom toms - Who cares about tom toms? So dumb - people buying these things for their toms when they probably put a bunch of muffling on them anyway, or use some pre-muffled heads (or both). A good snare and good cymbals are more important. Put the rack tom in a snare basket. Who gives a crap?! I appreciate your ingenuity, but you can't fool me with this stuff
alan duncan holy shit ..the absolutely dumbest comment Ive read to date .. just stop man
Your comment proves you really dont know anything about Physics and audio frequency
I own the third series of these headsets but... some of the hardware came stripped when I received them. I guess it is possible to replace the tom mounts with gibraltar mounting hardware? I dont know. They are sitting in storage at the moment but they do sound great! I wish they were still around.
Got my first Rims mounts around 1981 i think. This invention literally reinvented the drum kit.....I wouldn't be without 'em!
Thanks, Phil!
I find information like this very fascinating.
Just ordered my first RIMS mount! So excited. 12" Platinum finish.
Thanks, Benjamin!!
@Gauger Percussion Inc. I have a set of purecussion RIMS from the 90s that are black coated. Does that mean they won't have the same phase cancellation effect the chrome plated versions had?
Is zinc alloy acceptable? Comparing with aluminum? Would it be the same or would the zinc choke the shell?
Rodney Evangelio we have never experimented with zinc. We went with aluminum because a materials expert at 3M recommended it in terms of its isolating capabilities.
Thanks so much for sharing this!!!!!!!!
Thanks for commenting!
I use it on the bottom of my toms so sound guys can mic the drums with no issues
Can I buy a set of aluminum RIMS for a Purecussion set from you guys?
Ezra,
Yes, they will fit most any drums. We sell them directly through our website at gaugerpercussion.com. If you check out our site and have any other questions, feel free to email us through our contact page. We are quicker at responding via email, as thats where most of our communications come in.