I have a copy of the original Braunstein rules. As I understand it, people were not originally assigned characters to play, but military units. The character aspect emerged one day in 1969, when far more people showed up, than could possibly play. That's when David Wesley started assigning newcomers specific rolls (town mayor, captain of the guard, university chancellor, leaders of various guilds, etc., etc.). Then a young Dave Arneson challenged the captain of the guard to a duel. Dave rolled a 3, his opponent rolled an 11 (I assume they were using 2d6), and the referee called it for the guard captain... which officially made Dave Arneson the very first player to die in an RPG!
I got to play in a Braunstein (the original Napoleonic scenario) run by Wesely at GaryCon this year. (He's really not remotely hippyish by the way.) Really interesting and fun guy. (And I met Griff too.) Oh, and Wesely is very insistent that it should be pronounced "brown-stine" and not "brawn-steen". He illustrates this by putting a brown beer stein on the table.
I too got to play with Wesley and one of these scenarios at Gary Cohn a few years back and if you're such a wonderful window into tabletop of long gone Eros at this point.. can agree that the guy is not remotely hippie inclined by the way
In 1969, David Wesely served as referee for a Napoleonic wargame set in the fictional German town of Braunstein.[1] Wesely set up a multi-player, multi-objective game, in which he assigned individual roles for each player, including non-military roles. For example, he had players acting as town mayor, banker, and university chancellor. Wikipedia has a pretty succinct explanation. Watching secrets of blackmoor, if you can ignore the background music, will also help understand. What I learned is that the BrOSR has definitely hijacked a term that is no longer necessary. The Braunstein had set objectives and single character players, while the BrOSR is not that at all.
You can always find an earlier exemple of adult playing pretends. Diplomacy is the next step. I saved you a few years before UA-cam "rediscover" this game.
Diplomacy was a board game, very popular in the 50s. It was a wargame of WWI, but in between turns players could negotiate alliances, or then betray each other
The 1:1 time ratio philosophy is tied to the idea of an alternate world running at the same rate as ours is simply a gimmick to make players feel like it's a real world. The 1:1 time ratio philosophy only applied between sessions ignores all the time manipulation in-game, where time stops for the duration of a fight, or contracts to make exploring a single four-hundred-foot hallway more interesting. Time does not exist in roleplaying games, nor does space and its three dimensions, or the creatures within it. It's artificial and imaginary, a representation. The absolute tenor of the 1:1 time ratio philosophy is just that, a philosophy, at worst tribal and dogmatic, and nothing else.
My main criticism is that it's not a productive way to do that. Having to consider real time in meta takes away from the verisimilitude, and creates unnecessary complications. But you need to do is have a careful registry of time within the game world, instead of piggybacking it to our world, make time functional in the game world.
@@RPGPundit That I know to be true, and Gygax was upon something when he wrote about keeping strict time records. The simulation of the world cannot be internally consistent without it, that's for sure.
Some pointless clarifications for your amusement/edification: - Arneson played in all of Weseley's Braunsteins, because they played most of them in Arneson's Basement - Wesely is a retired Colonel in the US Army, not so much of a hippie. - Braunsteins continued to be played now and then up to the present day. Jeff Berry and Weseley both run them. Thanks for the Kudos on Tonisborg. :)
True, but I think Arneson played a bigger part starting with Banania? My impersonation is not meant in any way a faithful representation of either Wesely or Griff, only of what I couldn't help but imagine in my own head.
No, at least as far as I know they have no connection. From what I can tell they're mostly 3e refugees, who mostly missed the actual Old School era, and have followed Jeffro's ridiculous false-history of it as their new faith.
I learned about Braunstein in the video about the origins of RPGs from the second Tonisburg kickstarter. I got the impression it was pretty freefrom but, especially at the start, the rules might be charging week to week as the guy running the game learned more about what not to do. As an example, I think the first one had the GM in a seperate room from the players, except for the one player he was dealing with at the time. This meant he had no idea what the majority of the group was doing at any given point.
I figured the Twitter drama was over something dumb, but I didn’t realize just how stupid it was. The internet loves arguing over definitions more than almost anything.
For some reason I kept thinking BROsr was kinda like BROcialism and I thought “what’s wrong with a bunch of bros playing some DnD??” 😂 Man was I wrong.
As far as I'm aware, in a Braunstain you receive a role, and an objective. All players compete or collaborate to achieve sth. They take turns with the GM when apart, and the GM solves it all with some common sense and a d6. From 1 to 3 you beat him, and from 4 to 6 you lose. The patron-type looks like that. They just add armies, and groups of agents to do sth in the game, like spying, etc. I think they're doing sth like playing a Battletech campaig with Braunstein elements.
Yes it was free form. Yes it barely has any rules and the rules avaible aren't from 70's. I did my own research when some UA-camr try to start a narrative (and probably some marketing pitch) around braunstein. I heavily suspect that's an attempt to undermine Gygax. I'm not the biggest fan of Gary's writtings and I think the game wouldn't be the same withtout Holmes and Moldvay. But I hate attempts at rewrite history. That's true misinformation. P.S. : You actually mentionned Diplomacy. Thank you ! And thank you for properly explainning what a Braunstein isn't.
Jesu Christi, pundit! You've been going on about this Jethro guy for over a year now. But what you never mentioned is that he literally uses the term BrOSR in his blog, AND PREFIXES IT WITH A '#' CHARACTER. Ultimate cringe.
@@RPGPundit you know, it occurs to me: isn't the game Harmony Ginger and all the Bros are playing just "Domain Level Play (with PVP)"? As you clearly demonstrate, Braunsteins are something else.
I think you are being a bit uncharitable about 1 to 1 time. As far as I can tell, it's a way to keep continuity straight in a campaign world with multiple player groups. As a solo player, it's just academic to me. Still, your description is flawed.
But it's a very foolish system of doing that kind of timekeeping too. What you need is to maintain a consistent calendar, there's no reason to artificially link it to real time.
I think the perspectives are varied. I am being accused of making lawsuit threats. The thing is, I can't because it is not my game. The discussion is a bit nuanced.Yet, as you know, most people can't fathom subtlety. 1. If you do not know how the game is played, then how can you claim to be playing it? 2. If you can't play it, why call it Braunstein. BRSORS are a bit too simple to get this kind of comment. So, perhaps you are doing a derived game? How about you call it it a ____blank____ stein. There is a long traidtion of using vairant names that goes back to 1970, or earlier. The Medieval Braunstien is what people called BLackmoor for maybe 3 months. Brownstone texas is the western themed Braunstein.The list goes on. Yet, some are using vague language to claim the Braunstein game as their own and claim they are the true leaders of pure RPG gaming. Well, they aren't. They are just attention seeking drama queens. As to the legal aspects. I am not a lawyer. You would be hard pressed to trademark Braunstein if you weren't David Wesely. Then people got all huffy about whether I and others are saying you can't even say the word Braunstein. I dare you. Go stand in a dark Closet and try whispering Braunstein. (Sarcasm begins here) The Braustein Police will drag you out of your house and set you on fire on your lawn. (End Sarcasm)
I don't like this about Dave. He keeps telling everyone "that's not how it's played". The truth is : he probablt didn't. It wasn't formalized and trying to write it down now will be heavily influenced by modern LARP and OSR. It's not the same thing to describe and conceptualize something new. Because you can't even know what's good and what has to be changed. That's why he didn't published his game even in the 70's. He can wrtie his Bio now. It wouldn't be more biased than most Biography. But please don't start some silly chase to the "true source" of RPG. it's cringe for the white Nile and it's even cringier for a hobby.
@@Minodrec I think you are mixing subjects. David is merely saying: Do not use the name of my game for your game. It's pretty simple. As pundit says, the misappropriation does't honor the history of RPGs. The reason for it is to white wash history and claim the name for someone else.
I have to agree. Seems to attract the authoritarian personality types, with the added malus that Trumpian personality defects have become the way it’s done for those folks. Make some shit up, then when someone questions it, complain that you are being unfairly attacked. The last step may or may not involve denials of the prior claims. Rinse and repeat. At this point it’s become boring because there can’t be a discussion about it.
I really don't understand all the OSR nonsense. Sorry if you or others reading this love the OSR but I was MORE than happy to leave THAC0 behind for a roll high, DC system. Super streamlines everything.
@@geekybugle4241 Cool. I'm ok with people playing what they want but, as I say, for me, as a DM, I've run the OSR games when they were just regular school games? I'm fine with moving forward to Tales of the Valiant or DC20.
As geeky said, most OSR games don't use Thaco anymore. The movement has been around a lot longer than when you decided to shop around for 5e alternatives.
While I'm excited that anyone is talking about Braunsteins, you''re intro is way to rambling. You need to get to the point quicker.
I have a copy of the original Braunstein rules. As I understand it, people were not originally assigned characters to play, but military units. The character aspect emerged one day in 1969, when far more people showed up, than could possibly play. That's when David Wesley started assigning newcomers specific rolls (town mayor, captain of the guard, university chancellor, leaders of various guilds, etc., etc.).
Then a young Dave Arneson challenged the captain of the guard to a duel. Dave rolled a 3, his opponent rolled an 11 (I assume they were using 2d6), and the referee called it for the guard captain... which officially made Dave Arneson the very first player to die in an RPG!
I would argue that it's not precisely an RPG.
I got to play in a Braunstein (the original Napoleonic scenario) run by Wesely at GaryCon this year. (He's really not remotely hippyish by the way.) Really interesting and fun guy. (And I met Griff too.) Oh, and Wesely is very insistent that it should be pronounced "brown-stine" and not "brawn-steen". He illustrates this by putting a brown beer stein on the table.
I too got to play with Wesley and one of these scenarios at Gary Cohn a few years back and if you're such a wonderful window into tabletop of long gone Eros at this point.. can agree that the guy is not remotely hippie inclined by the way
@@MARSHOMEWORLDwell that's just the boomer meme
@@MARSHOMEWORLDfor the record, he's the one guy I've never talked to in all this
I have a beer stein just like it.
He gave them to everyone in the group. Chris has one too.
I used mine in the movie.
It's pronounced Braunstein. 😀
It's Frankensteen! Frankensteen!!!
In 1969, David Wesely served as referee for a Napoleonic wargame set in the fictional German town of Braunstein.[1] Wesely set up a multi-player, multi-objective game, in which he assigned individual roles for each player, including non-military roles. For example, he had players acting as town mayor, banker, and university chancellor.
Wikipedia has a pretty succinct explanation. Watching secrets of blackmoor, if you can ignore the background music, will also help understand. What I learned is that the BrOSR has definitely hijacked a term that is no longer necessary. The Braunstein had set objectives and single character players, while the BrOSR is not that at all.
Spread the word, share the video!
The Braunstein BriSR games I have played in actually have single characters and objectives..... Might want to fact check.
@@rwustudios Good for you! I'm responding to Jeffro! And you're still lurking here? lol get a life
That flying burrito brothers bit was amazing.
Thanks! Spread the word, share the video!
The best part of this video was Pundit's stoner hippie impression :)
Thank you! Spread the Impersonation, share the video!
I searched both patents and trademarks.
The only registered IP under Fellowship of the Thing, Ltd is the Arncon logo.
Yes but as I point out that's really not the main issue here. Except people are trying to take something totally different and call it a braunstein
It's a game people. I think millennials forgot that fact. I miss the pre internet gaming days when we never had to argue this type of shit.
We did argue this shit, just more slowly.
X is for drama brainlets.
Love how pundit didn't like this one lol
The rules and roles for past Braunstein games are available on the Internet!
That's true, but those rules evolved over the course of the handful of braunstein games that were actually played, before everyone moved on to D&D.
Sounds like I should learn about this game to understand where D&D came from.
You can always find an earlier exemple of adult playing pretends.
Diplomacy is the next step. I saved you a few years before UA-cam "rediscover" this game.
@@MinodrecJeffro will probably make up some totally different thing and then claim it's "the real, original & only true way to play Diplomacy"
@@MinodrecWhat's Diplomacy?
@@RPGPunditIf that's the case I think you should do a video on Diplomacy next so I have an idea of how it's actually supposed to be played.
Diplomacy was a board game, very popular in the 50s. It was a wargame of WWI, but in between turns players could negotiate alliances, or then betray each other
The 1:1 time ratio philosophy is tied to the idea of an alternate world running at the same rate as ours is simply a gimmick to make players feel like it's a real world. The 1:1 time ratio philosophy only applied between sessions ignores all the time manipulation in-game, where time stops for the duration of a fight, or contracts to make exploring a single four-hundred-foot hallway more interesting. Time does not exist in roleplaying games, nor does space and its three dimensions, or the creatures within it. It's artificial and imaginary, a representation.
The absolute tenor of the 1:1 time ratio philosophy is just that, a philosophy, at worst tribal and dogmatic, and nothing else.
My main criticism is that it's not a productive way to do that. Having to consider real time in meta takes away from the verisimilitude, and creates unnecessary complications. But you need to do is have a careful registry of time within the game world, instead of piggybacking it to our world, make time functional in the game world.
@@RPGPundit That I know to be true, and Gygax was upon something when he wrote about keeping strict time records. The simulation of the world cannot be internally consistent without it, that's for sure.
Some pointless clarifications for your amusement/edification:
- Arneson played in all of Weseley's Braunsteins, because they played most of them in Arneson's Basement
- Wesely is a retired Colonel in the US Army, not so much of a hippie.
- Braunsteins continued to be played now and then up to the present day. Jeff Berry and Weseley both run them.
Thanks for the Kudos on Tonisborg. :)
True, but I think Arneson played a bigger part starting with Banania?
My impersonation is not meant in any way a faithful representation of either Wesely or Griff, only of what I couldn't help but imagine in my own head.
Are the BroOSR the last living refugees of the forge now trying to resurrect their evil Lord?
No, at least as far as I know they have no connection. From what I can tell they're mostly 3e refugees, who mostly missed the actual Old School era, and have followed Jeffro's ridiculous false-history of it as their new faith.
I learned about Braunstein in the video about the origins of RPGs from the second Tonisburg kickstarter. I got the impression it was pretty freefrom but, especially at the start, the rules might be charging week to week as the guy running the game learned more about what not to do.
As an example, I think the first one had the GM in a seperate room from the players, except for the one player he was dealing with at the time. This meant he had no idea what the majority of the group was doing at any given point.
The BrOSR should use “Braunstein Style of Play” instead of just saying “We are running Braunstein” which they aren’t.
No, they should just F*** off and leave the real OSR alone.
Correct! Spread the word, share the video!
Even more correct
I figured the Twitter drama was over something dumb, but I didn’t realize just how stupid it was.
The internet loves arguing over definitions more than almost anything.
Spread the word, share the video!
You forgot to mention one thing thanks to the Mandela Effect most have forgotten it was originally called Braunstain.
LOL
I don’t understand why a children’s book about a family of anthropomorphic bears can cause such a ruckus.
LOL
For some reason I kept thinking BROsr was kinda like BROcialism and I thought “what’s wrong with a bunch of bros playing some DnD??” 😂 Man was I wrong.
Spread the word, share the video!
As far as I'm aware, in a Braunstain you receive a role, and an objective. All players compete or collaborate to achieve sth. They take turns with the GM when apart, and the GM solves it all with some common sense and a d6. From 1 to 3 you beat him, and from 4 to 6 you lose.
The patron-type looks like that. They just add armies, and groups of agents to do sth in the game, like spying, etc.
I think they're doing sth like playing a Battletech campaig with Braunstein elements.
Aren't you sick of all this IP coveting?
Hard to make even a tribute without some slithering thing coming out from the gutters to sue.
Well, in this case it was about people who were there, trying to stop a takeover from a group of entryists
Yes it was free form. Yes it barely has any rules and the rules avaible aren't from 70's.
I did my own research when some UA-camr try to start a narrative (and probably some marketing pitch) around braunstein.
I heavily suspect that's an attempt to undermine Gygax. I'm not the biggest fan of Gary's writtings and I think the game wouldn't be the same withtout Holmes and Moldvay. But I hate attempts at rewrite history. That's true misinformation.
P.S. : You actually mentionned Diplomacy. Thank you ! And thank you for properly explainning what a Braunstein isn't.
Thank you! Spread the word, share the video!
Jesu Christi, pundit! You've been going on about this Jethro guy for over a year now. But what you never mentioned is that he literally uses the term BrOSR in his blog, AND PREFIXES IT WITH A '#' CHARACTER. Ultimate cringe.
I don't have many occasions to look at his blog, thankfully.
watching at 1.25 speed, i can just make it before work ! =D
Great hippie voices! I loled.
Spread the hippies, share the video!
@@RPGPundit you know, it occurs to me: isn't the game Harmony Ginger and all the Bros are playing just "Domain Level Play (with PVP)"? As you clearly demonstrate, Braunsteins are something else.
@@joshpeters5694 yup.
Jeffro has stated that he is the most important person in rpg history. The Brosr is a complete joke!
Spread the word, share the video!
22:18 Evil sex? Dang, that book sounds exciting.
LOL
I think you are being a bit uncharitable about 1 to 1 time. As far as I can tell, it's a way to keep continuity straight in a campaign world with multiple player groups. As a solo player, it's just academic to me. Still, your description is flawed.
But it's a very foolish system of doing that kind of timekeeping too. What you need is to maintain a consistent calendar, there's no reason to artificially link it to real time.
I think the perspectives are varied.
I am being accused of making lawsuit threats. The thing is, I can't because it is not my game.
The discussion is a bit nuanced.Yet, as you know, most people can't fathom subtlety.
1. If you do not know how the game is played, then how can you claim to be playing it?
2. If you can't play it, why call it Braunstein.
BRSORS are a bit too simple to get this kind of comment.
So, perhaps you are doing a derived game? How about you call it it a ____blank____ stein. There is a long traidtion of using vairant names that goes back to 1970, or earlier. The Medieval Braunstien is what people called BLackmoor for maybe 3 months. Brownstone texas is the western themed Braunstein.The list goes on.
Yet, some are using vague language to claim the Braunstein game as their own and claim they are the true leaders of pure RPG gaming. Well, they aren't. They are just attention seeking drama queens.
As to the legal aspects. I am not a lawyer. You would be hard pressed to trademark Braunstein if you weren't David Wesely.
Then people got all huffy about whether I and others are saying you can't even say the word Braunstein. I dare you. Go stand in a dark Closet and try whispering Braunstein. (Sarcasm begins here) The Braustein Police will drag you out of your house and set you on fire on your lawn. (End Sarcasm)
I don't like this about Dave. He keeps telling everyone "that's not how it's played".
The truth is : he probablt didn't. It wasn't formalized and trying to write it down now will be heavily influenced by modern LARP and OSR.
It's not the same thing to describe and conceptualize something new. Because you can't even know what's good and what has to be changed. That's why he didn't published his game even in the 70's.
He can wrtie his Bio now. It wouldn't be more biased than most Biography. But please don't start some silly chase to the "true source" of RPG. it's cringe for the white Nile and it's even cringier for a hobby.
Totally agreed.
@@Minodrecvery well said
@@Minodrec I think you are mixing subjects.
David is merely saying: Do not use the name of my game for your game.
It's pretty simple.
As pundit says, the misappropriation does't honor the history of RPGs. The reason for it is to white wash history and claim the name for someone else.
So Braunsteins are basically a proto-story game + board/party game hybrid.
Kind of, yes
This Jeffro dude is an odd duck to be sure, superimposing Protestant puritanism on RPGs is... odd.
Yep. Spread the word, share the video!
I have to agree. Seems to attract the authoritarian personality types, with the added malus that Trumpian personality defects have become the way it’s done for those folks. Make some shit up, then when someone questions it, complain that you are being unfairly attacked. The last step may or may not involve denials of the prior claims. Rinse and repeat. At this point it’s become boring because there can’t be a discussion about it.
Don't see the problem with BroSR, 1-to-1 time is sort of dumb, but they are promoting D&D players to work out, which can't be a bad thing.
Except it's all fake.
You know what would be really cool.
If you wrote the definitive guide too Braunsteins
I think that Griffith is working on something similar to that
@@RPGPundit
Ok, he needs to ve coached by a pro ( you ).
Because it would be really nice to have it out soon , so the Brosr has to face the truth.
Well, Griffith did a fantastic job on Tonisborg, so I have every confidence he'll be able to handle this job.
So... this video is not about a family of bears? Well. I've been had. Lmao😂
I'd let anyone have the word who thinks they coined it. Just use "Braunslike" instead.
Spread the word, share the video!
I really don't understand all the OSR nonsense. Sorry if you or others reading this love the OSR but I was MORE than happy to leave THAC0 behind for a roll high, DC system. Super streamlines everything.
Plenty of OSR games don't use THAC0, AFAIK most of the games that aren't retro-clones do exactly what you say and also some of the retro-clones.
@@geekybugle4241 Cool. I'm ok with people playing what they want but, as I say, for me, as a DM, I've run the OSR games when they were just regular school games? I'm fine with moving forward to Tales of the Valiant or DC20.
Doesn't make your way the right way. I prefer OSR myself, but you do you. Don't vilify others.
@@blackstone777 Oh look, a youtube troll looking to start a comment fight to give his life meaning. Jog on, troll.
As geeky said, most OSR games don't use Thaco anymore. The movement has been around a lot longer than when you decided to shop around for 5e alternatives.