Post-Punk Icon Joe Jackson on The Nanny State, Smoking Bans, & His Next Musical Adventure
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- "A smoking ban in bars is saying that adult citizens are not allowed to use a legal substance even though they're very highly taxed for doing so in a place that is private property," explains Joe Jackson, the hitmeister behind indelible tunes such as "Look Sharp!," "Is She Really Going Out With Him?," and, yes, "(Everything Gives You) Cancer."
Jackson's not a smoker himself but he insists that smoking bans and other for-your-own-good restrictions infantalize us all and challenge basic concepts of freedom. "You're throwing out the window the property right of the owner of that establishment, freedom of choice, a lot of things, compared to a health risk [from second- and third-hand smoke] that is really unproven."
Jackson's antipathy for the creeping nanny state in his native England and his longtime home of New York City led him to write a meticulously researched essay called "Smoking, Lies and The Nanny State." It also led him to finally flee New York and London, setting up residence in Berlin because there he at least feels like he is relatively "free" and "treated like an adult."
Jackson sat down with Reason.tv's Nick Gillespie and talked about his frustrations as an anti-smoking ban activist, the "gathering storm of prohibitionism," and the bold and risky evolutions of his signature musical style over the years.
Runs about 7.30 minutes.
Shot by Meredith Bragg, Jim Epstein and Anthony L. Fisher. Edited by Anthony L. Fisher.
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All I ever knew of him was his music .. great to see his actual personality after all these years. It's like knowing someone all your life then recently meeting them for the first time.
@Celebrian666 I smoked my whole life, started at 15 years old. I just turned 50 and I quit Dec 31 2009. Almost two years now. Smoking is a trap, nicotine is highly addictive. We owe it to our children to try and remove this trap. We are supposed to learn from our mistakes.
I've loved Joe Jackson's music since the beginning of his career. This just makes me love him even more!
Superb points raised by a very talented individual. Thanks for uploading and sharing :-)
Joe Jackson, I am in love with you and your music.
Followed Joe for decades. Seen his shows dozens of times over the years. Very diverse music out of one guy. A real genius if you ask me.
Also good to see he seems to believe in thought diversity. I’d bet he’s got some things to say about the pandemic and mass shutdowns in society.
Jumpin' Jive is what turned me on to Joe Jackson. It was a marvelous album.
Joe Jackson is such a top bloke and his music has always been fantastic. Do yourselves a favor and read his musical autobiography "A Cure For Gravity," he's also a brilliant writer too. Best thing I've read in ages!
Great musician with some common sense. Way to go Joe! I'm a bigger fan now.
I love that I can go into a club, and not gag due to the smoke.
Even if you don't die from a smoker's disease, it will definitely make you look older than you are. That's not so bad for guys, but women are really affected by it, with a wrinkled face. Women spend so much money on creams to get rid of wrinkles, but what some should do is just stop smoking.
I just wondered if his song, "Everything gives you cancer" was a response to anti-smoking messages, and or people.
TighelanderII obviously.
Thank you for sharing. Agree with Joe Jackson. Berlin may be a great place to relocate!!!
Delta is ready when you are.
Berlin has been ruined. It’s no longer the secret it once was.
Aeschylus,
You are mistaken. I have seen interviews with Joe Jackson where he lights up and smokes cigarettes. He even says that he moved to Germany in part because they allow smoking in public.
i'm watching this in isolation in 2020!
the smoking bit seems a bit trivial now
I work in a casino in las vegas. People who work in casinos die early - mostly in early 60s. Non-casino workers generally die in their 70-90s. How do i know this? I read the obits.
@AmadeusPower Secondhand smoke is known to contain at least 250 toxic chemicals, including 50 cancer-causing chemicals. According to the U.S. Surgeon General, there is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke. That means if you can smell cigarette smoke in the air, it could be harming your health.
I read Joe's 2004 essay carefully, and while I agree with him on his view of the health arguments, he got sloppy when it came to dismissing the "aversion to smoke" arguments of those who can't stand the smell. His solution of better air venting is not really enough. Based on the laws in place, a social venue is destined to either drive away some people who need a smoke, or some people who can't stand smoke. Take your pick. I can support having a choice of venues. That way, people who do not intersect in the Venn diagram have a choice (whereby the intersection means that some smokers and non-smokers could handle either venue arrangement).
I'm a smoker and I like it!
I totally agree Harold!
@HaroldRehling
I think this asymmetry on a large scale is why the choice between smoking and non-smoking pubs, which sounds great and fair in principle, wouldn't work in practice. If there's a mixed group, you'd go to the smoking pub most of the time because few non-smokers would insist on the no-smoking pub. Thus the minority preference would continue to dominate the majority due to the game theory outcomes, as per the hockey example.
I think most people prefer the ban on smoking in pubs.
The coercion tactics surrounding masks and vaccines since 2020 has supplanted and IMO blows the anti-smoking issue away completely.
@Shanockdotcom is this an actual story? Or a very good fictional anecdote.
@HaroldRehling
Good answer. It's the counter-argument I would have made as well; I like being provocative, though.
I think that smoking in pubs is a bit of a weird one because the minority desire ends up swamping the majority. In other words, even though most people don't smoke, non-smoking pubs don't work, because non-smokers don't want to be seen as moaners and will defer to the wishes of the minority. I think there's some overlap with the ice hockey helmet phenomenon, or seat belts.
so if I'm in a bar and ask you to stop smoking because, like your right to smoke, it's my right to not not breathe in the smoke or smell from it, will you just say 'piss off' I'll do whatever the hell I want?
@HaroldRehling
There's an interesting psychological asymmetry when smoking is optional. If a smoker asks, "Do you mind if I smoke?" you feel bad for being honest and saying, "Yes, I do mind", because then you're the fun-spoiler, the wuss. Yet the smoker doesn't feel bad for asking the question, because they think they're merely being polite and fair.
i meant night and day 2. sorry, my mind was a little cloudy from not enough cigarette smoke in my head yet. But I thought I'd light up a pack and just let them run around the house like incense so I could think clearly again.
Listen when David speaks, he just wants us to be free. If we could truly attain this, then we could be more at peace. Think!
The trouble is school children are being taught that Left-wing authoritarianism is normal and good.
Then go to club designated for non-smokers.
Don't penalize the bar/rest. owner, (that pays the taxes, to operate), that wants to cater to the crowd that would include smokers.
@jvangurp Fair enough- you do have a point, now that you mentioned it. Agreed- he is amazing.
This is the better Joe Jackson
He is in fact a great musician.
The damage of smoking must be payed by the public insurences.
They cannot do that any more or they must take more money from all people, smokers and nonsmokers.
In germany smoking is banned in bars, too.
@HaroldRehling
Namely, most people don't want to be seen as the one going for the "soft option" of prioritizing their own safety, even though most of them would prefer to avoid (head injury/second-hand smoke). But when legislation comes in, the majority are pleased, and prefer the change, because now choice has been removed from the equation and they cannot be blamed by anyone for taking a "wussy" attitude.
(Google for "Why do hockey players support helmet rules, even though..." )
oh and by the way I really like the night and day album. I was a little disappointed by night and day too, I didn't really get it. If somebody else got it explain it to me then. I saw Joe Jackson live with Todd Rundgren. Rundgren was so utterly tank that his part of the show was so embarrassing to him, that I just wouldn't question his decision to give her to her again after that. I don't think if somebody had told me about my performance that I would want to be seen in public for a long time. That's how are you still coming I was drunk in public with you, very very cool in my mind, very very stupid acting and looking. And I was so proud to stick up for my smokers rights, when I was in California visiting, and how dare somebody and Davis come up to me and asked me not to smoke around food and their children, I need to know to my right to force the smoke into everyone's lungs and on to their food as well? People, this is so stupid. They just don't understand that cigarette smoke does exactly what you tell it to do, and doesn't bother anybody else ever or Escape into any other people air.
Nick!!@$@%@ Where is the jacket? I am devastated.
What a weird hill to die on
If Joe could see into the future and see the way hospitality and pubs are being targeted NOW during the COVID crisis 2020...
By the way I love Joe's work.
We need Smoker Activist Like Joe Jackson
Duke Ellington with no horns?! Wot??
@KaitainCPS There is no commonality between our statements.
Businesses are PRIVATE property. Roads are not.
A non-smoker always has the choice to not enter a smoking establishment. Drivers, however, do not have the ability to choose drunk or sober roads.
If drunks were to buy their own private roads, make them available for public use, and make it obvious drunk driving were permitted, THEN your comment might hold some validity.
I'm taken aback that he's pro private property rights being a liberal (at least I thought he was).
I'm cool with that, maybe he's just trying to get some PR out of it because he's vanished. Good job Joe. BTW I remember being a huge fan in your Look Sharp and Beat Crazy days, and remember being at a Central Park concert in the early 80's we booed the warm up band that was from Africa, then it rained, you came on stage chastised us, and played like a 30 minute set. Man I was so angry at you, lol.
Like your music Joe, but smoking is a disgusting habit!!!
Then dont smoke
If You dont smoke Then Shut Up
I smoke and agree with Joe Jackson
I smoke And I also Agree with Joe Jackson
If You work For Leon County Fl. You can Be fired for testing Positive for Nicotine County Claims No Drug policy WTF ?
YO,! Joe is right on love his point even though im a former smoker.......Damn where did i put that last pack, anyway as I use to say and will say it now , ........SMOKE EM if you got EM. Thanks for the cool smokin Joe posting.
@lessamuelson
Wrong arguement. It should be up to the owner of the establishment whether or not you can smoke. That way, some would allow smoking, and some wouldn't. Then you could go hang out wherever you like. That's freedom, but that's not what we have, is it?
As a smoker, I absolutely support the right of any business owner to ban smoking on their property.
I am, however, sickened by the number of non-smokers who deny me the same right and then call it a victory for "their" freedom.
@crapple009 Just making an observation - it looks quite weird. JJ is amazing.
"Jackson's not a smoker himself " Incorrect, as in the book he states he was a "moderate smoker".
Joe is not only a great musician, he's a great thinker!!
Love ya Joe Jackson, but I hate coughing in bars and restaurants. Find a habit that doesn't involve others.
@jimlovesgina
that's the point: if every bar/whatever would deceide for themselves if they allow to smoke, everyone could choose for themselves. works quite well in germany. you can smoke in some clubs, in some you don't and some have a seperate smoker room. fair for all.
btw: if you ask a smoker politely if he could move away with the cigarette, they usually do. but if you say "you are ruining my precious health, go away you weak addicted loser" they probably won't.
Aha, that's the Jumpin' jive video I uploaded
I bet you are not perfect don't judge A person by their looks
Joe is one helluva musician
Halfway to JoeDoll.
Smoking is enjoyable? I've found that just a little cigarette smoke makes me coughing sick.
Its not just lung cancer it's the smoking related emphesyma. Killed my aunt over 10 years. 10 years carrying and oxygen tank around with her in a wheelchair. My cousins all had severe asthma from growing up around second hand smoke.
@AmadeusPower If you tell a child don't run with a knife in your hand. Look both ways before crossing the street. You don't need any Rights or Permission to warn them. You do it because its the right thing to do. Eliminating tobacco completely would be a wonderful thing. Anyway I merely pointing out that if we just now discovered tobacco it would never be a legal product. You know thats true. The FDA USDA CDC EPA..........
I
Like Joe but people shouldn’t have to breath a toxic cloud from a smoker. He’s right it’s legal and I don’t mind people doing what they want but if it infringes on other people that’s crossing a line.
@UtherPendragan You know there's an inherent risk stepping outside your house, maybe we should ban that too.
@Aeschylus "Same here, and that's the whole thing about libertarianism: allowing other people to make their own choices, even when their choices are (imagine it!) different from one's own."
No, that's the whole thing about LIBERTY, not Libertarianism. Your statement is incorrect because Libertarianism is a political philosophy derived from people having liberty in their lives, or from those who were denied liberty. But true Liberty is a Blessing from God; It's inalienable - not subjective...!
There is a documented case in Australia of a bar-person who got lung cancer although never smoked. Proven in court.
Right. But, that restriction should extend only to smoking. Under no circumstances should the activities which you enjoy, and which also pollute the air that others breathe, fall under the same sort of restrictions, right? It's ok to restrict smoking, because you don't smoke. I'm guessing, however, that you wouldn't feel the same way about restrictions placed on activities you find enjoyable or of some sort of personal benefit?
I get his sentiment but smoking is gross in every way. I like being somewhere where I am not subjected to someone else's bad choices.
One is right to assume that you cycle everywhere, don't use electricity and grow your own food?
WOW, WHAT A HOT TOPIC, IF ANY SMOKER HAS SMOKED AN ORGANIC CIGARETTE, YOU WILL REALIZE HOW GOOD IT IS, AND ALMOST EVER NATIVE AMERICAN I MET SMOKED A CIG, ITS PART OF THEIR CULTURE, SMOKE A PEACE PIPE WITH THEM AND YOU WILL SEE, ALL THAT BEING SAID, I HOPE I QUIT ONE DAY LOL
OH, WHEN I DIE LOL
You mean natural cigarettes with real tobacco. Not the stuff made with treated tobacco, fillers and nicotine boosters which is sold to people by big tobacco as cigarettes.
Yes, I agree.
Peter Kroll yea, you know
Natural cigarettes will still kill you. They may not be as addicting as commercial products, but they still have tar, and that's the thing that causes all of the trouble.
@ Tighelander sure that is so. But:
1. Natural cigs taste far better, and they provide a more deeper satisfactory feeling. Therefore I did not smoke as much. About 1/2 the number in my case.
2. Quitting is far easier. I did.
Now don't ask me which cigs in US are natural. I don't know. May be none.
The lack of knowledge in this area is so sad. There's also no "safe-level" of exposure to carcinogenic sunshine. There are also over 3,000 volatile organic chemicals in ordinary human breath that are toxic in sufficient concentrations. Antismokers are *never* able to produce any actual specific scientific STUDIES (not general reports, opinions, "fact-sheets," etc) showing real harm from today's ordinary encounters with secondhand smoke. Google "specific, substantive criticisms" to see.
-MJM
I love Joe Jackson! Always a pleasure to see a musician with some non-liberal ideas.
No doubting his talent but he is the last person I would imagine getting "work done" seems a little undignified in a character such as him
@UtherPendragan " I have cancer and I wish like hell some fascist mind set person had banned tobacco before I started smoking."
And this is sooo typical!
Because YOU made bad choices in life, you think it is ok to control other people.
Because YOU were weak, you assume that everyone else is as well.
Well sorry, but I don't need a nanny and neither does anyone else. Tell a lot of young people about your bad choices and what the consequences are. Do NOT empower fascists!
@danaseihan
Why should the owners of a private bar be forced to cater to your wishes? There's your niche market. Open up a bar and cater to socialist non-smokers such as yourself. If smoking were legal, your business failure would be the appropriate slap in the face that you deserve. I, personally, do not smoke and I don't allow smoking in my home. I would expect that privately owned businesses can decide for themselves whether to allow smoking or not.
@generaljackdripper1
For the reasons already stated. You end up feeling like a curmudgeon for insisting on going to a place where your smoking friend can't smoke.
haha yeah the jacket is off.
If Joe Jackson were running for American office, I would vote for him.
Yes, yes you should have to choose. Or by some miracle, get out there, mobilize and ban tobacco entirely, make it illegal.
whether your for or against smoking, rationality lends weight to his case
@HaroldRehling
I enjoy drinking and driving. I absolutely support the right of people who don't want to drink and drive. I am, however, sickened by the number of non-drink drivers who deny me the same right and then call it a victory for "their" freedom.
Smokers' right to pollute the air should never preempt the right to breath. So glad for fresh air to breath while enjoying social time.
it's great to take care of your health, so do i. i worry about toxics in the air, furniture, food, clothes.. you can stay away from cigarette smoke but catch one asbestos particle and that's it. it's good to stay away from possibly dangerous stuff. but it doesn't mean people who do are better than people who don't.
don't forget: shaking hands can be dangerous as well.
I don't smoke, and I find breathing second-hand smoke to be repulsive. My repulsion is not for the smoker, however, it is the smoke itself. My grandmother smoked herself to death, and I spent every minute I could with her.
Coercion, especially governmental coercion, is infinitely more repulsive to me than cigarette smoke. I have never experienced health problems resultant from the time I spent with my grandmother, but my freedom is very often infringed by anti-smoking legislation.
If the dude went easier on the smokes, he wouldn't need the botox and facelifts that he is clearly ALSO addicted to...
So he likes smoking in public places and prefers Berlin because it's cheaper with less people!!
Stick to singing cod jazZ Joe (and your couple of pop rock hits ofcouse! )
Love his music. Saw him about 1983. Great show. However after losing 3 good friends in their 50s plus 2 relatives in their 60s, all smokers, all lost to lung cancer I think I'll get my health advice from scientists and health professionals.
Besides bars, clubs ,restaurants and workplaces are way better now without disgusting tobacco smoke.
You know what's more dangerous than both tobacco and alcohol put together? The NANNY STATE ITSELF. That, my friends, is worse than death.
Another thing that I read is that smokers are *not* the burden on the health system that they are sometimes claimed to be. They tend to get sick early and die young, rather than linger on for years.
Joe is THE man
love that you're talking to Joe on this ....glad to see him on Reason. Not a smoker myself, I find it disgusting, but bans at bars is gross government overreach. Freewill, if you want to poison yourself, have at it!
How about the free will of the millions of patients that have asthma? They can't go into a smokey pub because some idiot is using his idiotic right to poison himself. How does that asthma patient have a choice? The smoker can choose, well go outside then... Wanker.
I get it, but why should non-smokers have to endure a smoke-filled bar?
this guy is a legend, and i agree with him (i don't smoke AT ALL). but man, he looks freaky! haha.
Botox?
@UtherPendragan
i'd also love to live in a world without drugs and weapons and war and violence and meateating. but it's just utopic. people are stupid.
i don't really agree with your point of view. but i hope you get well!
i suppose joe does not believe in cv19 !!!!!!
Berlin is a place for people to live. New York and London are places for business.
Peter Kroll never been there, maybe some dsy
You know this from personal experience or you are quoting someone else?
Berlin is too cold in winter. As are New York and London.
he looks like he has cheek implants and his ears are huge!
@generaljackdripper1
A moment of silence from you would be appreciated.
Does Joe have cancer? He looks like he just finished a round of chemo.
@UtherPendragan No, YOU are the ignorant idiot!
If the laws against drugs weren't being enforced, they wouldn't be a problem. It is the enforcement that causes the problem. That's what raises the cost of the drugs to make them so damn expensive! Who do you think WANTS those prohibitions to remain in place? Right: the DRUG DEALERS.
If those drugs were legal, their price would be 1% of what it is now, hence no more gigantic profits.
well it's all well and good but when you can show me that the cigarette smoke will obey the private property boundaries and not Escape into the air and go everywhere, to my property your property or a school yard or a hospital, there is no smokers rights if the smoke goes wherever it wants all over the world, yes Smoker's rights would be great, Smoker's rights you can smoke here and nobody should be able to say anything about it and that would be great if you can absolutely confirm that smoke will stay in your space that you're smoking it and it won't Escape into the air and go anywhere else except for where you're smoking, that's including what you exhale into my air. and it's just a bunch of crap that they whine about smokers rights, because again, The Smokers rights are what If the right to smoke wherever you want and let the cigarette smoke into the atmosphere flowed into the air and go all around the world or wherever, it doesn't matter how far all that matters that is that it doesn't stay where you're smoking it, so spare me your whiny crap about smokers rights until you make the smoke obey your boundaries and never leave your side whether it's burning
furnace cigarette or exhaled out of your lungs, how's that for logic? not good enough for whiny smokers im sure, which I was one of at one time.
Wow, you painted with all the colors of stupid .
Waiting for the days they ban cars and trucks that pump all sorts of toxins into the air and "invade your boundaries". Still waiting....
You have a choice whether to go into a smoky pub or not so decide for yourself and don't come all high and mighty with your pc shite to those who may offend you with their second hand smoke. If I harmed you with my second hand smoke...prove it! Otherwise it's hearsay.
This is all about control...the big brother nanny state. Read 1984 by Orwell...he dropped a few hints in that book 70 years ago and history has a tendency to repeat itself which it's doing right now
What about someones toxic deadly breath polluting your precious air? You are something serious, Wow!
If you don't want to cough in a bar go to a non smoking bar. Duh!
He's full of crap. Smoking, and either firsthand or secondhand smoke, is unhealthy.
prove it
bravo, old sport!
oh I have a great idea too, how about let's have all of the smokers who want to stick up for smokers rights come on that's all rally together and speak out for drunk driving. I mean come on let's defend the right to drink and drive right? I mean nobody else is in the car if you're alone and you're drinking and driving right? I mean you're not making anybody else drink and drive are you? Wait a minute, you mean that like drinking-and-driving might hurt somebody else if I run into them with my car while I'm drunk? Well, kind of the way that smokers exhaling smoke may hurt people or people's or God only knows who or what plants animals, people, with smoke and we have these thousands upon thousands upon thousands of smokers exhaling smoke gosh well since they're not the only problem with air pollution in the world and of cancer-causing Agents, why bother to pick on them right? I mean if one particular action won't save the whole world immediately why bother right? I guess I'm forgetting about that neat trick that smokers teach their smoke, to go against the laws of physics, and it hovers completely enclosed above them until all of the smoke which is heavier than air, falls back down upon them and is absorbed into their skin and through inhaling. And nothing goes into the air that is shared by non-smokers. I forgot that smokers trained the smoke to do that. I'm sorry. Just disregard everything then.
"Wait a minute, you mean that like drinking-and-driving might hurt somebody else "if" I run into them with my car while I'm drunk?"
There's the key words there "might" and "if". So I get into a car drunk and drive safely home and not hurt anyone I should be punished???
But it's ok "if" you get into a car strung out on sleeping pills and anti-depressants though.
It's double standards and you know it!!
Seth, then dont smoke
I don't!
+Seth Harris right on, and I would appreciate it if no one else smoked either comma if there's smoke is going to escape into the air anywhere at all. Smoke yourself silly, but don't share your smoke with the world. That's not a smoker's right. Smoke one hit at a time, how about the cigarette smokers all get one-hitters light one hit hold it in until it's gone and never exhale anything then I'll stick up for your rights all the way. You should be able to light up a hit of tobacco not let it Escape into the atmosphere hold it in your lungs and legs are completely into your body, I will fight for your right to do that.
You have the right to screw up your face and your lungs, but not to blow smoke in my face. Which you think you have the right to do.
It is a vert shallow and poorly taught out argument. Sure, smoking is (still) legal, but does this include the right to negatively affect other people with it? Sex is legal, but you do not do that at restaurants in public and that would not even be harmful to others, at least not physically. I think he should stick to making his niche music and just keep his dumb mouth shut about things he knows F all about.