Joseph Smith’s First Vision | Ep. 1648 | LDS Discussions Ep. 17
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- John and Mike take a look at the timeline of Joseph Smith's First Vision accounts against the official church narrative. The main focus is on the inconsistencies and contradictions in the four main First Vision accounts, with a timeline of the evolution of the First Vision story. They also touch upon the problem of no contemporary mentions of the First Vision and compare it with similar visionary experiences by other contemporary figures. The church's official essay on the First Vision is also discussed raising questions about whether the church is deliberately misleading people about them.
LDS Discussions Essay on the First Vision: www.ldsdiscussions.com/firstv...
LDS Disc Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Chapters
00:00:00 Intro and Purpose of the info
00:07:50 First Vision Artwork
00:10:00 Church’s official essay
00:13:45 GBH Clip: Most important work or a fraud
00:16:43 Four Main First Vision Accounts
00:18:30 First Vision Problems: No Contemporary Mentions
00:21:45 John Larsen on First Vision
00:30:30 Assistant LDS Church Historian James B. Allen discusses First Vision
00:32:10 Does it make sense that Joseph wouldn’t mention it?
00:33:50 Contradictions of First Vision Accounts
00:36:30 Timeline of First Vision Account vs. Historical Records
00:38:20 More on the 1820 vs. 1824 FIrst Vision Timeline
00:42:00 Why the 1820 vs. 1824 Timing is So Important
00:43:40 The Evolution of the First Vision Story
00:50:40 Joseph Smith was Consistent on the Godhead at First
00:54:25 The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible and the First Vision
00:58:00 The 1834 Lectures on Faith and the Godhead
01:01:40 The Lectures on Faith and the 1835 First Vision Account
01:05:50 Book of Mormon is changed to Joseph’s new theology
01:09:35 Implications of Changing the Book of Mormon
01:17:25 Similar Contemporary Visionary Accounts
01:19:30 The 1815 First Vision of Norris Stearns
01:23:00 Asa Wild’s 1823 First Vision Account
01:24:25 Solomon Chamberlain’s Visionary Experience
01:26:45 Apologetica Responses to the First Vision Problems
01:29:00 A misleading footnote in the church’s First Vision essay
01:31:00 Joseph’s Mother (Lucy Mack) Helps Solidify the Timeline
01:38:05 More from the Church’s First Vision Essay
01:42:05 The Problems come from the bigger picture
01:44:45 The Most consistent way to view the First Vision
01:49:00 Why Would Joseph Embellish the First Vision?
01:55:00 The 1838 Conflicts that led to the new history
02:02:00 Has the LDS Church misled people about the First Vision accounts?
02:04:15 Joseph Fielding Smith ripping out and hiding 1832 First Vision account
02:08:30 The Tanners help get the 1832 account released
02:11:00 Are the Multiple accounts “Discussed Repeatedly”?
02:13:00 Conclusion of the First Vision Accounts
02:15:00 Common threads in Joseph Smith’s truth claims
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
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This is what Sunday school would be if it were 100% honest. Thanks for your work Mike. Thanks John for your integrity and your platform. Great work guys. Another amazing episode!
Mike, this is NOT boring. It has been good all along. I really appreciate all the work you have put into searching for this information. Thanks John for giving him a platform and helping to create a visual to all the work.
… and for pointing out how you’d be incredulous hearing this about another religion.
Mike is the GOAT.
Totally agree! Ive never been a mormon, but this content and information has been so fascinating. A big thank you to Mike and John for this series.
I admire you guys a lot for your non-hostile, empowering yet non-enabling, messaging towards orthodox "TBM" members. "Informed Consent" is perfect and it shows that you are not here to be "anti-Mormon," but to make sure that members can access a more complete pool of information to be best equipped to decide how they invest their lives. That includes accountability and demanding appropriate boundary-setting for the Church, but also respect for those who've had a chance to fully weigh the info and have decided it's in line with their priorities to remain in the Church as active, "nuanced" members. This is much more productive than the "angry ExMormon" approach, which often plays into the Church's messaging about "miserable anti-Mormons." Thank you for your important work!
It's the same thing with "angry ex-Mormons" and "angry ex-Christian atheists." First of all, the terms are used to disparage critics - and disparage the criticism - by falsely portraying it as mere "anger." However, second, in regard to people who are *newly* ex-Mormon or ex-Christian there is an element of truth to it in regard to how people who raised in these religions very often feel a sense of having been deceived and lied to - and those feelings often come out in addition to their expression of the various criticisms they articulate. But in my experience, it's mostly the former: The "miserable" or "angry" is mostly just a bogus disparagement. I know, because I've been an ex-Christian for decades, and very, very often when I express straightforward factual, detailed critiques of various religious beliefs (such as when I'm engaged in discussions about science versus creationism pseudoscience, and the manner in which promoters of creationism pseudoscience adamantly refuse to correct their factually wrong claims even after the facts that contradict them have been pointed out to them personally) I'm accused of being such an "angry" person. Which is why I see how much of a silly rhetorical tactic it almost always is.
@@steveg1961 You're right. Especially in the sense that they use said perceived anger/biterness as a red herring to make it seem like the criticism itself isn't valid. I do think the approach new Exmos use often seems very bitter (it was for me) and Mormons honestly perceive it as such. Coming across calmly and earnestly seems to get more mileage in actually getting them to listen. However, yes, anger does not mean someone is wrong.
I think realistically there isn’t much anti Mormon content. It seems mostly that people learn the history and want people to know the history before the consent to giving their life and money to the church. I feel bad being labeled an anti Mormon when I care about Mormons a lot.
OK as someone who has exhausted his rage at the church's lies, I have to point out that 2:07:00 is exactly why John is so amazing. After over a decade of learning, discussing, reconciling with, rehashing, arguing, etc the church's fraudulent history and current behavior, he STILL has the ability to get fired up and channel his righteous anger and call for justice. To feel all of this after all these years and still remain objective and civil is really impressive and is likely a huge part of his success. Stay angry, John.
Ok Freddie boy we understand that you’re not man enough to live the gospel. You should be man enough to admit it though. Move on son just move on. You’re showing your ignorance.
I just recently discovered this amazing series. I was a convert to the church, active for 10 years. I have been inactive for 12 years now and am in the process of having my membership records officially removed from the church. I cannot begin to describe how much these episodes have helped me, validated what I have felt and went through. Thank you John & Mike, you both are incredible catalysts for awakening and healing for so many people.
I'm grateful I started watching people share their stories on Mormon Stories around a year ago and when I noticed a recent upload from LDS Discussions I watched it! These videos are very well done and the sources cited feel very fair and trustable. (I've listened to 18 LDS Discussions videos now - I went to the beginning after listening to a couple.)
I enjoy listening and learning about Mormonism.
I have personally experienced many charlatans who have come in the name of the divine.
Just awesome, to learn about the manipulative, tactical, psychology behind this stuff!!! 😉
I’m not LDS but I love this show. John, Mike and Nemo, you guys do an awesome job! The format is great also. You guys go into so much detail and thoroughly cover the material so well. You cover these sensitive topics with so much honesty and integrity. Thank you for what you do.
I enjoy these podcasts. I am not a Mormon neither have I ever been a Mormon. Even so, I like the discussion of Christian scriptures and early Mormon history. These discussions shine a light on the environment into which Joseph Smith was born and people who were attracted by his message.
I can’t get enough of this show and I’m not even LDS. Am I weird for being fascinated? When will the Mormon Stories content be uploaded on Apple podcasts? John-your poor voice needs a break!
Mormon history is also history. I don’t think you have to be Mormon to find it interesting. Welcome!
Same:)) Catholic from Europe here. I only saw few times young LDS missionaries in my hometown, and that’s all. I was not aware this is such a huge organization in US. Very strange and fascinating story of LDS church. But hey, Catholics in “purest” form are not so far away from this madness;)
Same here. I think it’s just interest in the birth and evolution of a relatively “new” religion and the cognitive dissonance that goes with it.
Same here. Atheist from Europe here!
No, you are not weird. The story of the early Mormon church is weird which explains why many people who are not connected with the church find its history so fascinating. The story of the Mormon church provides a window into the world of ordinary people in the United States in the early nineteenth century which would otherwise not be available.
Thank you John as always for giving the big picture and a coherent narrative when needed. You two are a great team.
I always appreciate it when talking about the founding of The Church that goes back to Revolutionary War times. I cannot understand its history without going back that far. The Burned Over District and the different sects that were formed in this area interest me very much. My family fled religious persecution in the 1600’s and came to that area. It makes total sense for Mormonism to rise there in my opinion
Absolutely amazing. I'm learning far more in this series about the history of the church and than I ever did in the first 36 years of my life as a member of the LDS church. I left the church 5 months ago. I can't stop binge watching these because I'm finally learning truth rather than indoctrination. Thank you!
The artwork of the 9 different versions is very interesting. I've got to let that sink in.
This is super interesting and informative. Mike and john thanks for creating a plataform to share this. You guys are wonderful
I thought I had learned or heard of every piece...but I do have to admit I had never heard of the other peoples visions and their pamphlets and newspaper articles.... Thank you Mike & John for sharing this information and allowing the truth fall where it may.
I had not heard that before either 😱
so much Info, my head is spinning! Mike is brilliant. and thanks, John, for recaps, clarifications and context. great tag team.
My thoughts exactly. Love it when John jumps in and gives a clear narrative. Mike's reading and presentation sometimes loses a clear thread and big picture as to why the things he's saying matter.
Just discovering these series, and I can’t get enough, I am learning more from this series than I did my whole life raised in the church and all those years of seminary and institute
I cannot wait for your Priesthood restoration episode even though I've read that section on your website many times! This was an absolute shelf breaker for me.
It made me want to flip tables.
Mike, at least for me, please know that this information is not dry or boring! I truly appreciate all the precise knowledge you possess. Together you and John do a terrific job of taking out the trash and leaving the pure truth. Although, sadly, the church's pure truth is pure fiction.
This series is amazing. It really makes it easy in as much as it allows us to focus on the topics and not have to and find all of the information.
I’m not LDS but I’m riveted by every episode!
I've always found it interesting that it's called the "First Vision" and not the "First Meeting". "Vision" in this case seems to denote that it was not a physical event, but rather was more like the notion of seeing things with "spiritual eyes" (also known as imagining something). The simple fact that there were literally no eyewitnesses to the event (and no local farmers reporting on seeing the woods glowing), means that the only choice anyone has is to either take Joseph Smith's word for it or not. And since Joseph Smith doesn't have an excellent track record for honesty and integrity, frequently changed his story and...importantly...did not even bother to make any significant noise about that huge experience until many years after it supposedly occurred, there is no way to distinguish it from a story being told by a fraudster. (Of course, I guess people can use the heads-we-win-tails-you-lose formula that the church prescribes for "knowing" things, i.e., if you pray and pray with a desire to "know" that it's true and get a good feeling, then it's true and if you get a bad feeling it's also true because the bad feeling is the devil trying to prevent you from "knowing" that it's true.)
Great insight. It’s a method of telling the story that makes me avoid telling believing Mormons why I left the church. You (the believing Mormon) can answer one question, but all things taken into context, there’s no way to, with integrity, say the church’s foundational story is true. (John’s point at 2:05:00)
I hope they talk about Mormon Chapter 1 where Mormon recounts his own version of the First Vision. This account oftentimes is overlooked.
Mormon 1:15
@@Gusto08 are hoy sure you have the correct time stamp? I couldn’t find any reference to the original comment at the 1:15 time stamp.
@@Thriving-uv2ce That’s not a time stamp. It’s Mormon ch 1 v 15
This was awesome. Thank you Mike and John!
Thank you for sharing your findings, Mike. Very much appreciate it.
Joseph Fielding Smith cut out the first First Vision from the journal so that Fawn Brodie would not discover it, once she had been granted permission to view it by her uncle David O. McKay. Joseph Fielding Smith did not want the truth to get out.
Great video! Loving this series!
Thank you so much Mike for all of your research! It has helped me immensely
"Without our history, we are nothing!" ~GBH
Uncomfortable prophecies are past prophets speaking as men. What a dilemma.
Great pod cast
This video was great, I remember in the 1980s , in the ensign , about the 9 versions of the first version. I couldn’t get my head around it. And I’d just came of my mission. It really disturbed about it. I later left the church. With my wife. The I found more lies about the church, on my mission we were taught about the Adam god doctrines, but didn’t believe it. I found about it again after we left the church. So we never went back.
Thanks for this. It's of particular interest to me. I'm still PIMO, but one of the things fuelling a departure has been the belief that the missionaries, (and a couple of Gospel teachers) out right lied to me.
I had a specific question that for me was a deal breaker. "Does the church also teach about the Trinity?" I was then amazed to be asked "What's that?" But after I'd explained, I was told "Oh yes.Definitely".
It's interesting that they may not have lied, but believed one or all of the Visions
I don't think (most) missionaries are lying - I just don't think they know any better.
Just because the missionaries believe it's the Truth doesn't make it True. It's still a lie. A huge lie that they have been told is the truth. I am so sorry the missionaries found my mother over 40 years ago. So incredibly sorry 😪
@@LDSDiscussions you deserve a monument. How i wish that my Mormon family could watch these videos
This is not 'hateful' information. People on the defensive and uninterested in hearing anything critical will make this claim. They want you to be silent about any information that challenges their world view. Of course, these same people have no problems being critical of other world views different from their own. Am I getting this right? The church's claim is that JS, '...wrote or assigned scribes to write four different accounts of the vision.' Anyone find the part about assigning scribes TO WRITE four different accounts interesting? Am I missing something here?
This is exactly my thought as well. We're groomed in the church to believe anything remotely critical about the church is "hate." Yet we never apply that to anything outside of church. One of the biggest ah-ha moments after leaving the church is that faith is NOT a true principle. That was a huge realization for me.
Mike, I love what you said about seeing this based on if the situation happened with another leader and then cast that same through process on the First Vision. We can all apply this to different part of life. I know I definitely can. I stopped and relistened to the words.
This episode along with the bishop panel episode completely shattered my childhood beliefs for the better. I don't know what I believe when it comes to God but I don't believe in organized religion after looking deeper into it. Thanks for this great breakdown
🤎I was jonesing this awesome sauce series for the past week or 2. Yay it's back!
😆
I sooooo enjoyed the incredible details and thorough investigative nature of so vastly more evidence in the honest bigger picture. Simply sensational! I would love to have you on my show....
I'm not mormon or Christian, but i love to learn about LDS history. It's very interesting to say the least hehe
Very good video! I loved the historical context part where Smith needing something big to keep the con going and keep him as the one who sees God etc.
I know we frequently do this in common speech but in this context let's be sure to remember that the burden of proof is on the claims that the First Vision happened, not on "the world" to uncover evidence that it didn't. We can straight up falsify the claim, which to me is stronger language than saying we have evidence. Maybe this seems subtle, but to me it's something more.
Loved the bit on the New Testament changes JS was attempting in the 1830s, despite his supposed first-hand knowledge of them being separate beings from a decade prior. To me this fact, alone, is all I need to know to say we fail to accept the claim that the First Vision happened.
And then we laugh because all this critical thinking wasn't really needed since they never backed up the claim the First Vision happened with any evidence. "What can be asserted without evidence can likewise be dismissed without evidence." (RIP Hitchens)
Ah but TBMs have the ultimate trump card that ends any debate, which is a "feeling" that it's true. It's unfalsifiable.
At times during my deconstruction I've felt crazy,. Between the apologists and the church you start to think 'were they being honest and I just didn't want to see it?' and then you hear stuff like this Hinckley quote and it's crushing and validating, no I'm not crazy. This was being fed to us as factual truth.
another great episode, shows smith's m.o. and with the timeline of events, showing good reason for changes and added grandeur to each retelling
Question: in the 1832 account does JS ever state this is the 1st time he has written the story down? If he didn't could there an earlier account you just don't know about? Maybe in a vault somewhere?
Always possible but nothing that we know of and certainly nothing that anyone else knew of.
Also, if it were in a vault somewhere, then it's not helpful or supportive, otherwise, it would not be in the vault. 🙃 So it wouldn't be possible to help the Church with it anyway...
@@amazinmaven I just find it surprising that he had these “ visions “ in the 1820s but recorded nothing for 12 years. These people were constantly journaling, writing letters, corresponding, publishing stuff in papers. You would think seeing God would be worthy of a paragraph or two. It just doesn’t seem logical to my suspicious mind :)
@@cmotherofpirl Exactly! I just discovered there were 4-5 different versions! I’ve been a TBM for 65 years. I am devouring everything I can find and read. Nevertheless to late to find truth.
@@patricianoel7782 Better late than never. Glad you’re waking up to the scam of Joe Smith!
Anyone have the video where the incorporate all the visions as a singular account?
Thank you
Johnny , I became your number one fan sir!! Your last comments hit so real!!
That’s how I feel about Joseph Smith and the church.
It damaged my soul and rewiring has been a long process!
Thank you for your words and how you were able to tell his story without prejudice using facts instead anger.
I’m sure though that like every ex Mormon, you’ve gone through your anger phase…
Great work. Growing up LDS I don't think I really read The Book of Mormon. I didn't do the high school seminary.
Fantastic data points
It's interesting to read the BOM accounts that involve more than one member of the Godhead, because the different persons of the Godhead never appear at the same time. Like when Nephi is shown the vision of Jesus' birth, the spirit or God disappears first, and an angel becomes his new host in the vision. Or when Jesus appears to the nephites, the voice of the father stops before Jesus appears. Only one deity is ever presented to prevent an apparent plurality of Gods which would be anathema in traditional Christianity.
54:23 ***VERY AWESOME, Thanks Mike!!!***
1:18:54 It’s so important to remember this! Joseph Smith lived during the Second Great Awakening. Many other people had visions and even founded their own religions based on what they saw and what they believed God told them.
54:20 That was the first time I've heard that. It's another solid connection that the dominant First Vision narrative never happened.
Has anyone heard anything about a 10th version of the first vision? There was mention of 10 versions on another site.
I think there are 12 or 13? It's 4 primary ones and I believe 8 or 9 that are more secondary accounts.
There is a church video that claims to have elements of all 10 versions of the First Vision.
May i ask this if God is so mighty and glorious that he couldn't appear face to face with moses what made Joseph Smith so special
Love this series. Where can the Luke - jst be found?
In the footnotes of the king James Bible
I really enjoy the channel and say with all due respect. Is there a chance for shorter clips? I don’t always have time to sit for 1-2hr and listen to the whole story. Other podcasters I watch will take some short highlight clips from their long episodes for viewers to watch. Just my 2 cents. Thanks!
Can someone point to me the now removed luke 10:22 verse? Any source? I'm having a hard time fact checking / researching further into this.
Where can I find the image of the different accounts of the first vision.
images.app.goo.gl/Eg8Xx7K55SjgrYYZ7
History vs narrative.
I found this episode very interesting. Thanks a lot!
Also, the relevance of the first vision to the development of the Book of Mormon and later to the ongoing development of the LDS ecclesiastical organization may not at first have been apparent to Joseph Smith or anyone else. I think initially Joseph Smith saw his first vision as a personal theophany related to his concerns about his own sins. I think the attempt to connect the first vision to the organization of the church is something that was indeed back formed because I don’t think its relevance to the church organization was apparent until it became for the Saints an evidence of Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling.
@@krismurphy7711 The reason JS prayed in the grove was to ask God which church was right. The vision was given in response to this question. In the vision, JS was bound by an unseen evil power, which was banished by the appearance of a divine being. Nowhere in the versions of the First vision is this personage referred to as God the Father. It could have been God the Mother, or more likely the archangel Michael, whose traditional role is to cast out the devil. After that, the personage announces Jesus as “my beloved son,” which could have rightly been uttered by the Father, the Mother, or by Michael (Adam). Jesus appears and forgives JS’s sins.
I have given serious consideration to Don Bradley’s speculation that what we have in the First Vision theophany is the actual endowment of JS, which does not become clear to him except over the next 24 years. This slow coming to terms with the meaning of a vision is reported by some Christian mystics.
JS is told that he will be known for good and evil. This prediction applies to the movement he founded. It cannot be avoided. For the Church is not merely an instrument of salvation, but the object of salvation. Its apostolate share with JS the affliction of being rightly spoken of as both “good and evil,” for the apostles, like JS and the Church, are not the source of salvation but its object.
@@paultoscano7903 The circular reasoning in this comment makes me dizzy enough to produce my own First Vision.
The angel who visited joseph was Nephi not Moroni. Church changed it later after Joseph died
The first vision timeline was the final straw that broke my shelf! Great job breaking it all down.
There is still a lot of confusing trinitarian language in the Book of Mormon that has always been confusing. It all makes perfect sense now!
After reading Carl Jung, I suspect that recollecting a vision is rather like recollecting a dream: the recollection may improve rather than diminish over time because recollecting a vision or a dream is not like recollecting a historical event. I think this must be considered in the analysis of the changes over time in Joseph Smith’s versions of his first vision.
Why?
Jung's claims aren't supported. He's kind of a crackpot.
Also, the way human memory works (including of dreams) is that when it's re-collected it's re-written. The recollection isn't improving. It's being edited. Biologically. Memories of all kinds warp and drift over time. They do not get more accurate.
@@zacheryeckard3051 Anyone who dismisses Carl Jung as a crackpot is not credible. Ad hominem attacks are neither consider opinions nor facts.
@@paultoscano7903 The collective unconscious describes a primitive form of meme theory at best and is just wishful magical thinking at worst.
That's not ad hominem.
I'm saying he's a crackpot because his ideas are bad, not that his ideas are bad because he's a crackpot.
You don't get to defend Jung and talk about credibility in the same sentence.
Engage with the scientific method more and navel gazing less.
Trying to help people understand what’s going on, is like going back into a burning building to pull someone out, only to have them continue to punch you in the face, demanding evidence that the building is on fire, even after they admit they can see the flames.
Unbelievable…
Will you two or one of the two of you make a comprehensive illustrated handbook like the ones in Sunday school by the church, but with all the proof of debunking the church. Something we can use as a reference guide when taking to TBMs or for TBMs to start reading thinking it is church approved and then they’ll start to get into the stuff. As much as possible church approved sources. I am not good at organizing and remembering all the details when i am trying to talk to them. It would be such a life changing book. Or even book series if needed. Do you get what I’m saying? Like part reference guide part historically correct versions of the story. Similar to the i think its the Naked Mormonism podcast tells the story including all of the things changed and completely omitted. Especially about Josephs history that we dont know about. I had thought about awhile back doing a movie showing the real way the church was founded with like different names and different church names to show that if they heard that story about another cult they would think it was crazy. But then at the end reveal who each character really was and all that. Let’s do this!!
"A flame of fire" As opposed to what? A flame of water? 😂😂
Question.... Why is The First Vision so low on the list of covered topics? I'm trying to put the peices together myself and I thought that the first vision would be somewhere near the top since it's so important to the narrative of the church.
“Mike” is interesting and this informs is important but it’s Interesting to hear the difference between him and Dr Murphy who is an anthropology expert. “Mike” is good at compiling information and saying over and over whatever thing is a “big deal.” Both perspectives are important.
So I'm reading the 1832 version of the vision and the preamble written by Frederick Williams says "A History of the life of Joseph Smith Jr. an account of his marvilous experience1 and of all the mighty acts which he doeth in the name of Jesus Ch[r]ist the son of the living God"
Can you help me understand why it would say that if the church at the time was teaching trinity as doctrine at the time?
Is there an episode that covers the Boggs execution order?
Not yet.
@@mormonstories I hope that’s a teaser
I don't know what's wrong with me, but i can not find episodes 11-16! Can anyone help me?
These podcasts are very informative and well done, thank you!
What is the ces letter?
Disregard, I googled it.
Great, we’ll organized
I have asked this rhetorical question in comments before: How much faith is necessary to accept all of this? My answer: Too much. There is no way God can expect anyone to accept all of this on faith...
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Church explain that Joseph came home after the vision and tell his father?
In a fictional movie possibly. But there’s no evidence that actually happened (as far as I understand it).
I think you are remembering the angel Moroni visions. Where he passed out in the field and his dad asked him what is going on and he shared that one.
Do we know the dates that Joseph’s mother and sisters joined their prospective church’s? This should pinpoint the dates of the revivals. Also I think I remember in Lucy’s biography that she and her daughters joined after Alvin’s death. Not sure what those years are specifically though.
Nvrmd- it was addressed right after I commented
There is a response on fair Mormon about the ripping out of the pages. Explanation is as vague as can be, "we don't know why, but there wasn't anything shady going on, we promise 😉"
FAIR is flat out deceiving, it's one reason I walked away from them.
Don't forget that brothers Joseph and Hyrum would bury "treasure" and then take money from farmers, etc, to "discover" riches with dowsing rods. Scoundrels from the get go!
Watching this as a mainline protestant is so weird lol it’s like Joseph Smith had a list of heresies and just went on to pick the ones he liked most to be a part of his new religion
I am not a Warren fan, but we have heard from plenty of people, especially politicians, but when they get fired, they say they actually quit so they could spend time with family. Maybe she was embarrassed she was fired, especially in a book that is supposed to show her strengths.
1:49:58 Is it true that in Nauvoo, William Law was later accusing Joseph of having multiple people killed, including poisoning of Bishop Partridge, marring his under age daughters, then embezzling from his estate?
I would in 1835 Smith had the papyrus, and it showed visibly in picture format the three gods in one. It was also consistent that Smith would change his view of God now separating the persons of God. I have a podcast on this. More consistent evidence in line with what you have so masterfully presented here.
I saw multiple accounts that don’t fit the 1832 timeline. On lds discussions there was no source for the trinity comment (nor could I find it in the original document).
That original document (from Evening and Morning Star), in 1832, as well as others in 1831 seem to show that Joseph had visions (with Rigdon) about God and Jesus being separate.
In other words, the timeline of Joseph’s theology changing to a pluralistic God belief in 1835, which would lead to edits in the vision story and Book of Mormon, doesn’t really add up. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
That Early Morning Star article was later turned into D&C 76:20 saying they saw the Father and the Son in 1832
According to the 1832 account, Smith has already studied the matter and has concluded that the true church does not exist. He does not go to ask about the true church but goes to pray for forgiveness of sins and that is what he gets from “the Lord”. In the 1838 version, he has a completely different reason to pray, to find the true church. Quite a large contradiction before you ever get to the issue of who appears in the vision !
Question….given that the inception of the LDS faith came out of and at the time of that area being known as the Burned Over District because of the massive hysteria of the religions in that area at that time in that area and their revivals and craziness in rivalry for winning people to the different religions… it seems this would’ve had a massive impact on the Joseph Smith story and the first vision, etc at that time. It seems that this big cultural impact of that time that gave rise to being recognized in history as a very volatile and competitive time would’ve played a major role in Smith, even as a 14 yo, his family (who were struggling to the point of their home being in a bad precarious situation) and then the resulting creation of this new belief system by smith yet the first vision(s) are not even mentioned in the original books. Could you please address all of this relative to this Burned Over District time and what seems would’ve had a significant impact on smith and all of his subsequent actions whether those actions were truthful or not and the motivations he may have had at this tumultuous time in his area. I think understanding the culture of the times, both the calm or the highly charged times, is meritorious in knowing and understanding especially in light of how much of smiths actions proved to be highly questionable or even bogus and possibly motivated for reasons other than ‘truth’.
1:37:00 I thought it was stated in Insiders View of Mormon Origins that a Methodist leader said Joseph helped them sort out a lot of theological issues, etc. Clearly he was well-versed and affiliated with the religious realm and not some clueless farm boy that's portrayed in church videos.
This show is hysterical! I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better smoke and mirror show! If I had a glimmer of hope for the book of Abraham, it’s now gone, is anybody really buying this? If so, I really need to get a mailing list for all the Mormons, I’d like to see how many bridges I can sell in Brooklyn. This guy is selling a book about the truth of Abraham? Could I get in line now to NOT buy it? I love watching Saints Unscripted, it’s like watching a train wreck, I can’t take my eyes off of it!
It will be nice if in General conference they tell the truth I know for sure many LDS will stay with the church…. They just love to belong to this organization no matter what.
If you view the book of mormon or the bible as an old comic book it's interesting......kind of
A commonly heard phrase in the Church is that ultimately "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ," meaning that every person on earth will one day become a member of the Church. Another commonly repeated trope is that when temples are built in every country, that is when the second coming will happen. Given all of this info. it makes me think none of that will happen.
27:58
Didn’t he tell his mom right after he had the vision?
No
This whole series has me thinking that everything that I learned in the past 20years was a Mandela effect
You can't argue critical thinking with Faith, because the premise of Faith, is believing in things that are impossible, things that defy logic, defy science, etc. The First Vision cannot be proved or disproved with anecdotal evidences, just like the parting of the Red Sea, the miracles of Jesus, or even the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven as well, thus requiring Faith.
So being a non-mormon, I enjoy listening to these lectures. I have a few comments regarding the others but for this episode, I am a little confused or baffled at the section around the 50min mark regarding trinitarianism, modalism, oneness etc. The statement of the Three Witnesses is shown as if it is an aberration from the norm, but 2 Nephi 31:21, Mormon 7:7, D&C 20:28 all claim the exact same. What am I missing here? Even in the proper Christian Scripture, Christ speaks of He and the Father being one, but clearly is not saying one person, but one God: meaning eternal/uncreated, shared will, shared nature. The aberration seems to be in the statement speaking of the Father and Son being God but no mention of the Spirit, which likely follows into the trap of the JWs in denying the Personhood of the Spirit. Again in Scripture the Spirit is one who is sent by the Son, who eternally proceeds from the Father, who hovers over the water of creation (in Genesis) and the water of new creation (incarnation of Christ in the womb of the Virgin Mary), and thus in each instance is described as a personal being, not simply an energy of the Father or Son.
The name of the ancient city of Palmyra or Tadmur indicates "love" (pal or Tad and "pole" myra or mura--the palm whose trunk was used as a pole representing a specific god. Why would Christian people name a town after the pagan religion of pole worship (best remembered from the story of Gideon?) Could it be there was a known grove there? Where Joseph saw his Lord.
There's a church video now where the narrator says the following video includes elements of nine versions of the first vision.
See the video "Ask of God: Joseph Smith's First Vision" which can be found on the "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" UA-cam channel.
Well yeah, you can use "elements" of different stories like you can borrow puzzle pieces from a different puzzle - as long as your goal isn't to have a complete, coherent picture in the end! 😆
This is a 2 hour discussion about how maybe, just maybe, God and Jesus did not visit the woods in New York State in the 1820s. You don't really need to painstakingly delve into the nitty gritty details about the inconsistent story line. You can actually dismiss the whole tale outright because it's cartoonishly bonkers.
@@krismurphy7711 : Have you completely left the LDS?🤔
Move on, buddy. It's a big internet.
You mentioned several experiences but only give us one.. The vision by Norris Stearns.. Have you got more than that? One Doesn’t really speak to several just to be honest if that’s what’s most important here