Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1609 | LDS Discussions Ep. 08
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- Join John and Mike from LDS Discussions as they discuss the Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon! They explore anachronisms related to agriculture, animals, Jewish customs, records on metal plates, the King James Bible, and New Testament material. They also discuss the use of Christ and Messiah in the Book of Mormon and the absence of unique Mormon doctrines. They examine apologetic responses to the anachronisms and the possibility of the Book of Mormon prophets receiving revelation. The host and guest conclude that the presence of even one anachronism can prove a document to be inauthentic.
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Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:04:15 What are anachronisms
00:06:20 Status of Book of Mormon Claims
00:14:00 Agriculture and animals indiginous to the Americas
00:23:00 Old testament anachronisms
00:27:00 Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
00:29:30 What you would expect in the Book of Mormon - Jewish customs
00:35:00 Records on metal plates - The Brass Plates in the Book of Mormon
00:43:30 Math and the brass plates
00:50:30 The king james bible
00:53:30 Apologetics to the King James Bible Issues
00:57:44 New Testament material in the Book of Mormon
01:04:30 Why the use of Christ and Messiah is such a big problem
01:08:06 A final note on the Christ/Messiah problem
01:12:22 19th Century influences
01:16:09 A 19th century Christology in an ancient text
01:21:40 Being baptized in the name of Christ…before Christ
01:24:20 Apologetic responses to the anachronism of baptism in the Book of Mormon
01:30:30 Could the Book of Mormon prophets have received revelation?
01:35:50 Joseph Smith’s early Theology, but not his later theology
01:47:48 A final note on the Christ/Messiah problem
01:29:20 Could the Book of Mormon prophets have received revelation?
01:35:52 Joseph Smith’s early theology, but not his later theology
01:38:51 The Book of Mormon teaches that there is only one God
01:39:51 The separation of the godhead is completely absent
01:43:51 Unique doctrines to Mormonism completely absent in the Book of Mormon
01:52:30 A final thought on apologetics regarding anachronisms
02:20:00 Native American on tapir
02:05:15 It only takes one anachronism to prove a document inauthentic
02:06:56 Conclusion to anachronisms in the Book of Mormon
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LDS Discussions: ldsdiscussions.com/anachronisms
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Bart Ehrman MS Episode: mormonstories.org/podcast/bar...
Ehrman - The Baptism of Jesus as an Apocalyptic Event: ehrmanblog.org/the-baptism-of...
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Mike’s line: “Faith is the belief in things you can’t see, not belief in spite of the things you can.”
This is fantastic and exactly what helped me leave the Church. Faith was never supposed to “defeat” facts. Even Elder Holland has taught it should make sense in your mind and in your heart (relying on D&C 10).
People can find the Book of Mormon important to them and therefore “scripture” but it’s so problematic to view it as historical.
Thanks John for working on this series and Mike for all his work. This is an amazing resource and you can tell Mike really cares about the truth.
I really liked that too. Very quotable. If I could make a meme out of that I would. And then I would post it on my social media!
So much easier to see “the things” with the internet. This is such a solid series.
Love this way of describing faith and reason and how they are best when combined and not at odds with each other. Faith that is secure never needs to fear reason or questions.
That definition of faith is not correct, this is the bibles definition..Hebrews
11 Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen. 2 For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them.
3 By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is seen has come into existence from things that are not visible.
Perceiving an out come based on the thing seen now is what the men of old did...a promise from Jehovah that is guaranteed.
What facts? It is all theories and/or things not disproven. Goodness. The Book of Mormon isn't from the secular record. The authors mention that if you actually read the thing. It isn't meant as a historical record. Nonetheless, all the stuff put forth in this video is just assumption upon assumption. No definitive facts per se. If anything, the anachronisms are decreasing over time, not increasing. Either way, no need to rush to a verdict. No logical need to rush to a verdict that is. You might have other reasons (illogical ones, agenda driven ones for example, but certainly no logical reasons to say, "That's it. This is the only conclusion. Every other explanation is no longer viable.")
@@DaremoDaremo Yeah this is where you are mistaken The Bible's not from the secular records either but where it does touch secular history it confirms it does none of that in the book of mormon it's all made up you can't prove a single thing.
The LDS Discussions series is so well-researched, and just brilliant. What a time to be exmo! Thank you for all of the work.
You don't identify as Formon? I considered joining the LDS Church and leaving just for that moniker/title.
Actually anytime is a good time to be an Exmo…the series is the proverbial icing on the cake.
Most people don’t know Jesus had a Cadillac! That book was dropped from the Bible.
@@astralclub5964 Jesus had a Honda, but didn't like mentioning it to people.
"For I did not speak of my own Accord" (John 12:49)
The DNA evidence is also clear that Moss was not from Mesopotamia. It seems that whenever a verifiable claim can be made, elated to religious texts, they fail. Revilation states that the stars will fall to the earth. Well we know that stars are orders of magnitude larger than the earth and the earth would be no more if a star came close to the earth just like Mercury is way too hot for life as we can imagine it. God, inorder to stop the sun in the sky so that the Israelites could finish slaughtering one if it's enemies. God woul have to stop the earth, something that John was not aware of. The effect on the atmosphere, oceans. Earth's crust would have been catastrophic. Then I guess with God he can make anything happen. If he wanted people to have metallurgy at one time and then get rid of all evidence he could do it. God could change the DNA of Israelites to hide all evidence with a link to the fertile crescent. That is always a problem with religious texts. Not enough water to flood the earth for a year. The all powerful God can fix that. Jesus can't live with half a set of chromosomes. God can change the body of anyone to match the bible. Magical carpet rides no problem, staff to snake and back, easy. Living 900 years. Who says that is impossible? So if we allow virgin births and boxes ( the ark of the covenant) to win battles we must accept Smith and his Gold plates.
Any Mormon scientist who watched this video either has to leave Mormonism or quit his scientific position. You cannot claim to be a scientist and ignore this evidence. To use the well-known shelf metaphor, this episode alone put one ton on the shelf (or one elephant?) Great job, Mike and John!
Exactly!!!! How can a highly respected archeologist like Sorensen not see the truth? How can the educated academia and brilliant professors at BYU be blinded by a shaman like Smith?
I am a scientist, I left the church when I was like 16, well stopped goin except on like xmas with my parents, but when my mom says oh blah blah has a PhD and they are members. you are right, I think it's OK to take the morals and stories from the Bible, b.o.m. and get value from it, that is ok. But most religious scientists that I know, basically say the same thing.. we are trying to figure out God's laws on how the universe works.
ok, I can understand that, but I have known since childhood the b.o.m. was a crock. maybe cause I was the only member besodes my sister, and she was to old for us to be on the same school,
In my school from grade 1 til graduating h.s., growing up with lots of jews, catholics, Presbyterians, ect..most of which were "mildly" religious. I know more about passover than I did any mormon traditions, which we don't have.
So I started asking questions and eventually stopped, dealt with the guilt that everyone gage me, and took off to school as fat as I could after h.s..
Now keep this in mind my mother's line comes from England, last name is Snith for gods sake, family was in a few different pioneer/handcart companies, my great grandfather owned what is now Sundance ski resort, we (part of the family) owned the mill in footloose, thats a big mormon thing.
Her roots go deep. My dad's family converted.My dad had 2 brothers and 3 sisters. in 1 gemerstion, Basically all but 1 or 2 of about 20 cousins are not active.
I think when you grow up around no other Mormons (the major city near lake Michigan, figure it out), where our stake was litterally 2 or 3 counties, not towns, not 4 blocks like in Utah, in that case you are able to see the crock that the B.o.M is.
The church(separately from the scripture) does do great things for ppl, aid, feeding ppl, helping volunteering..and most members I know are nice decent people, but the scripture is b.s.
Back to the scientist thing, idk how member scientists that received a good non byu college education, do it. lots of self delusion I think.
@@jonathana8411I'm not Mormon and I view the religion has a con with an effective marketing plan. The alterations Smith made to the Bible are sickening.. When studying the real Bible I found some things very interesting. Moses built a tabernacle in a pattern revealed to him. It's 3 courts and the fourth location at the Mercy Seat are the pattern of all things. The "Proton Psalm" shows our crowned messiah as the Proton who draws the electon with cords of love. The wicked think these cords are bonds to be "cut asunder." The elect (electon/ελεκτον) is called to seek the face of God. The path of our journey is called "the way of life." The way passes through the 3 court like 3 shells. We gain increasing light with each leg of the journey. At the nucleus, the path turns upward. In this other dimension, there doesn't seem to be time. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the elect who has taken the journey. This isn't possible in the LDS religion which uses a pretense of men promoting men through a false philosophy. Whatever Hell is, I'm certain Smith is there. And I feel bad for those tricked into following him. Light appears to have been originally birthed from icy waters. And I saw in the oldest book of Job that lightning comes from crystals in the nighest clouds. I don't know what photons are, but the suggestion is an analogy of all things originating from light. And I am familiar with light as a language. I've read that when matter is caused to collide with its antimatter, both are obliterated leaving nothing but light.
@@barbwire7449because god works in mysterious ways
One thing to correct is that the maya did have written language as did other ancient peoples in Mesoamérica, but the characters don’t match JS characters and would have made the plates 1000’s of metal plates. Just a note 😂
I’m a nevermo and am binge watching 2-4 HOUR programs. This content is incredibly well done, I’m never bored, and it all helps me understand my stillmo aunt, a bit better. Thank you.
One of my close friends in high school was Mormon. Our group was very intelligent and religiously diverse. One time I (Catholic) and one of my best friends (Jewish) were challenging the anachronisms. Our friend eventually said, "look, its just what I believe. I value it, and I wont change." Honestly, I can resoect an admission like that more than someone who simply denies these huge inconsistencies exist.
This entire series with Mike should go down as invaluable for the LDS deconstruction process, much as the CES Letter has. The 1st time I heard that the BOM had changes from the 1st edition, I was shocked. I saw that unsophisticated language was removed: "As I was a journeying..." "...Lamoni was a journeying thither..." This sounds suspiciously like a 19th century farmer, who mixed in King James Bible language style, in his writing.
The first edition reminds me of the "Duke and Dauphin" (the grifter characters created by Mark Twain) who pretended to be European royalty and Shakespearean actors and, at one point, one of them tried to show off by reciting a Shakespearean soliloquy, that was a mangled hodge-podge: "And makes us rather sling the arrows of outrageous fortune than fly to others that we know not of. There's the respect must give us pause."
The first edition of the BoM was like a casserole of Hillbillyisms and Elizabethan English.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N"Casserole." 😻
Wow. I have listened to a lot of MS, and I’ve read a decent amount of books, but “Mike”is literally a genius the way he presents the topics and distills the information into mind blowing components. Amazing. Thank you so much Mike for your time and effort. I “prophesy” that this mini library of MS that you are creating will be seismic in their illuminating effect. I can’t thank you enough for the time you are giving to us so freely. Thanks.
This "ANACHRONISMS" episode, as prepared and presented by Mike, is sure to be yet another slam dunk!
Hope everyone's got their Popcorn, Twizzlers, Hot Extra Large Soft Pretzel, and Raisinets on hand!
Extra large soft pretzels? You can get those from the FAIR apologists, right?
I like to alternate bites of pretzel & raisinets.
These are so good, as a Gen-X Ex-Mo who has only been "openly out" in the last 3 years, I really appreciate the way you and Mike discuss this, I am happier knowing what I know now, but I am not trying to blast my family and friends that are still in, so I really love the chemistry and tone of the information, not insulting, just the facts! Keep up the great and important work!
Having so much fun watching Mike's and John's discussion on an important topic.
I was listening to this program,and my head kept saying,in spite of all that information,no one actually saw the plates but Joseph Smith! Thank goodness I have walked away.Just love this series.😊
I was told by my parents about FAIR when growing up. This is the kind of information I wish they looked to. So clear and properly researched. Puts FAIR to shame. Glad to be an exmo when there's content like this out there to help me continue on my deconstruction journey.
And "fair" needs to be shown its dubious place: THE DOOR.
I love this series so darn much!! I thought I had enough evidence to leave the church and then Boom! Here's more stuff. Love your channel. I still stand on a Christian view but I love everything you guys say. Thank you.
I'm loving this series with Mike. He's extremely well-read and knowledgeable and a pleasure to listen to.
One minor note: Civilizations absolutely do invent writing and then lose it, especially when they collapse. One example of that would be Greek, which was written in Linear B in the Late Bronze Age. When the Mycenaean (early Greek) civilization collapsed at the end of the Late Bronze Age, writing disappeared along with the palace culture that supported it (it's unlikely the literacy rate was very high). The Greeks then reinvented a totally unrelated script about 500 years later, adapting the Phoenician alphabet to their language.
(Another famous example would be Rongorongo, the undeciphered script on Rapa Nui or Easter Island, which even native Easter Islanders today can't read. Again, it appears society largely collapsed, in this case under devastating pressure from white colonialists.)
Fascinating, @Lilith. But even then the idea of written language was “in the air”, no?
I know this isn't the same but look at cursive writing and how it is going away before our eyes.
@@boysrus61 Right? 😢💔
@@boysrus61 I about fell out when I learned that cursive writing was no longer being taught in schools. What really PMO is that Civics, which was taught in high school back in the not too far distant past, is no longer offered. Grrrr.... 😢😭
I absolutely love the level of detail! For the majority of us I think it's as simple as, "He claimed what? Yeah that guy clearly made all that shit up."
Another note: The Bible is far, far, far, far better on the issue of including women in the narrative than the Book of Mormon is. Of course, the Bible undeniably stems from patriarchal societies, and that's evident everywhere in its pages. But it's teeming with women, some of whom have religious authority and some of whom have political authority, and many of whom drive the narrative forward in interesting ways even when they're socially subordinate. The Book of Mormon, with its approximately 3 women (the virgin, the bitch, the whore ... and a few others), is impoverished next to the Bible. We can't blame the lack of women in Restoration scripture on the Bible; this issue is unique to Restoration scripture.
I think John was trying to make the point that GOD would have inspired the EXTRA SPECIAL Nephites (whom we're the only privileged people to be given "Christianity" hundreds of years prior to Jesus Christ's birth) to write about many women and included their names. For example: Nephi would have named his own wife and sisters because he named his mother, father and brothers.
"What Joseph wasn't remembering"😂😂. That is such a polite way to say it. Very nice fellow.
Another solid episode. I had to break it up into three sessions because I didn’t want to just listen, I wanted to be able to pause & look at the visual aids. Thanks for all your hard work.
When Mike talks about how only Joseph Smith could have written this. It reminds me of the movie Slum dog millionaire, where all of the questions come directly from events in his life.
Life changing series!! By far my most favorite! Thank you both so much for all your hard work!!
Mike u are a rock star and John it goes without saying. As a nevermo I am enjoying this so much. My dad as an ex-Catholic did this with the Bible it took him years. I was raised believing that truth is important and science and archaeological record is the truth. I was raised atheist but had a Unitarian community. But I am going to start donating monthly bc I am so in support of what y’all are doing!
It’s amazing and important work! Sometimes the truth hurts but it is always better to know the truth and all the facts especially when raised in or converted to high demand religions. All these high demand religions are losing members in droves especially young members bc of the access to information and the truth that to the internet. Fooling people and hiding the truth and perpetuating discrimination younger generations won’t tolerate thankfully!
So proud of this channel!
I would like to thank you for speaking of the Jewish faith with so much respect. I am not a Mormon. I do, however, feel that learning something new is the best use of idle time. And you teach so well I just had to subscribe to your channel.
Doc
Absolutely love this series and love this important work!! Thank you so much for taking the time and care to do this so patiently, honestly, respectfully & responsibly!! This is so intellectually honest to acknowledge all the knee jerk special pleading that many of us have witnessed ourselves do unconsciously so many times!! 🙏🏻🫶🏼💪🏼🫶🏼🙏🏻
Very interesting. I've been watching an ex-Scientologist channel with great fascination. This channel provides such detailed analysis... Extremely worthwhile to understand the history and the impact of the LDS organization.
I have very strong opinions about abusive non taxpaying organizations - I don't care what your religious beliefs might be, but harm to the participants combined with financial shenanigans and evading accountability to boot? NO!
Really, really interesting! I’m not Mormon and never have been, but this is just fascinating to me.
JDs point about no record of any civilization having a system of writing then losing is well taken. May I suggest another, nowhere in history will you find a more technologically advanced civilization being overwhelmed and destroyed by a more primitive one. Only in the Book of Mormon. This series of discussions with Mike is absolutely awesome, among the best of Mormon Stories.
JD's point there is wrong, actually. You can get the quick and dirty of it in the top comment on this video, if you haven't seen it.
Brilliant! Faith is the belief in what you can’t see; it’s not belief in spite of what you can see.
Gotta love Mike's insights. Thanks John for creating these forums. Even though I have been Non-Mormon for 8 years, I like to stay sharp on the FACTS for many reasons if not for keeping my sanity when I'm around TBM's including family members. I wish I could say that that scenario has been easier with time but it just hasn't unfortunately. Thanks again Mike & John.
More brilliance...Thanks Mike and John, please keep them coming !!!
Yes indeed, we are loving this series.😊
This is excellent. I have heard more than once growing up in the church that it is written like the king James version of the bible so that people who knew the Bible would understand and know it's true bec it's written in the same way. I can't believe how unfounded that statement is.
This was the most informative and professional, as well as academic podcast of this era I have heard.
That beat, that voice, those lyrics, the talent, just pure masterpiece!
These are FANTASTIC presentations. I appreciate and applaud your efforts and videos. I also sincerely appreciate the attitude of "finding the truth" as opposed to becoming an "exmo".
I tried to read the Book of Mormon just to give it a chance. I couldn't make it out of 1 Nephi without putting it down because it was obvious that the author of the text was writing with the gift of hindsight and was intimately familiar with the New Testament.
Thank you for all the information, and all the time involved! I love this series!
Yes!
Great to have in my library now! Thank You!!
Great episode by the way, I am loving these!
I am learning so much about the history of religion in this episode. Wonderful.
Anybody who reads Hebrew can immediately see that the names concocted by Joseph Smith are not merely anachronistic, but impossible.
I realized the horse problem when I was a young teenager, but repressed it and assumed that they must have been there because of ancient horse fossils.
Glad to be here now, readdressing it!
It’s amazing to see neutral perspective of BOM. I can’t believe I didn’t decide to leave the church so much sooner. My only real choice in this was to leave the church and I no longer believe any of it is true. Great time to be exmo!
I would also add in comments that my lifestyle has gotten so much better since I left the church. My friendship are realer, and more authentic. I can openly do things that I couldn’t do as LDS like helping to legalize Marijuana. I haven’t lost anything from not being LDS, only gained things. I’m no longer treated like a weirdo, or an outlier to a society or organization.
@@matthewmitchell68 right there with you friend
Brass is a poor choice of a metal for engraving. It corrodes quickly.
Anachronisms are the reason I never believed in Mormonism. I was considering converting until I read the book.
Can you put a link to the anachronisms please? Its too small to read.
This series is how every Mormon Stories podcast should be. Just bring on folks like Mike, Sandra Tanner, John Larsen, and RFM and talk about what they know. Emotional appeal is what the church does. It's propaganda. Just facts and logic please.
Though it may not have been your intention, I think the way you worded your comment really downplays the impact and importance of the rest of the work that John and team have produced that do so much to help people at various stages of faith crisis or transition.
I would be happy for John or someone in the Mormon Stories team to step on and tell me otherwise, but I don’t think I’d be inappropriately speaking out of place by saying that the goal of Mormon Stories goes far beyond Mormon counter-apologetics, (which is what these types of episodes are, however interesting they may be).
That said, I share your appreciation for these “facts and logic” type of episodes with guests like Mike, John Larsen, RFM, and especially the Mormonism vs science episodes with Dr. Simon Southerton. They’re among my absolute favorites, but they’re not the only thing I think Mormon Stories should be about. One of the best things about Mormon Stories, imo, is the wide variety of high quality content they put out for people anywhere on the belief/disbelief spectrum.
@@slickmullet3891 I think the "impact and importance" of emotional appeal is zero. In fact less than zero. I hope I stated that clearly enough for you.
@@KidFreshie Maybe for you. For many of us, it is precisely the FACTS, REASONING, & SYSTEMATIC escort thro nonsense that brings us to a level of real, magnificent EMOTION.
@@sheliabryant3997 So facts and reasoning is "nonsense" and emotion is "real." Got it. 😆
Mike has done an excellent job synthesizing so much information. So interesting to study how something like this came about and continues.
One piece of feedback, on several episodes there is commentary like, “why would god do x?” Implying the speaker has a better idea of what God should have done will make believers dismiss you. The facts of the situations are more convincing arguments so I would stick with those.
I am grateful to participate in a faith tradition that encourages critical thinking, questions, and combining reason and faith, as a Catholic. Thanks for sharing this interesting info.
OMG. Lauding Catholicism as a beacon of intellectual integrity... JUST YIKES.
Joseph made it all up
Pretty much...except for the parts that he plagiarized wholesale from the Bible and popular sermons.
And there were no golden plates. And there was no super bright glowing angel named Macaroni or whatever pasta that angel was named after.
But there was a rock and a hat. I do have a testimony of that.
I think I can make a rap out of that.
Joe had a rock and a hat; you know you gotta testify to that; and when he peeped at the stone; God always gave him a bone; Then ol' Martin sez I gotta show Lucy, but Lucy went and cooked his goosy....
Yeah, it still needs some work. But there's some potential there. ;o)
Wait, are you saying we have no evidence of senines, senums, seons, shums, limnahs, senums, amnors, ezrums, and ontis? Nor is there evidence of all those steel swords? In order to test our faith, did God send angels, with vacuums, to remove any trace?
Really enjoyed this. Tighter more succinct style. Appreciate you Mike. I worry about John working too hard but great job.
Intellectual history by itself is devastating to the Book of Mormon. Many scholars talk about the development of an "analytical I," an individual who orients their narrative around their own experience and observation, as a development in Classical Greece, so why does Nephi write this way? The idea that being cast out of Eden is a "fall" isn't attested before Augustine and is uniquely Christian (non-Jewish), so why does the Book of Mormon characterize it this way? Why does the Book of Mormon use the language of Anselm of Canterbury to argue for an "infinite atonement"? When you compare the books of Kings and Chronicles, you see very different theologies, where Kings is quite loose and Chronicles much stricter in telling a programmatic story in which the wicked are punished by God in this life--so how did the Book of Mormon inherit, if anything, an even stricter theology of history than Chronicles (which can't have been written before the Persian period)? Over and over and over and over we have to conjecture that ideas that seem to be later were present in pre-exilic Israel, and the Book of Mormon is the only source that preserves this. At some point it stops being plausible.
@Lilith = Genius.
@@mormonstories 😊
@@mormonstories She needs to be interviewed on Mormon Stories Podcast. Ya'll can talk about anything. Ask her or I will ask her for you. People who are well spoken, articulate, and really intelligent are hard to come by. We need more women on the podcast.
This is the best episode I have seen on Mormonism. Amazing!!!! Bravo!!!!
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Mind blowing.
Thank you, again, for all of your excellent scholarship.
I am reminded of reading about a Brookings Institute study on the affect on society of information that would turn humanities perspective on truth on its head and how destabilizing that would be.
Thank you for the power of truth. I feel more empowered to share my knowledge. Don't "doubt your doubts ". Lol
Women mentioned in the Bible, many were mentioned because of their courage and strength.
The Brass Plates problem is the same problem with the Book of Eli in that a Braille Bible would be a lot larger than one volume. I know it's a movie, but just not possible to have a complete Braille bible in one volume.
This is awesome.
This is dome incredible and organized info.
The Book of Mormon is one of the worse pieces of American literature ever published. I say this as someone who has read it cover-to-cover not just once but more than once and then only after studying it for decades prior to that. But hey, don’t take my word for it, take the word of the man who is considered by many to be one of America’s greatest authors and creator of some of the best American literature ever written, Mark Twain, who said of the book:
“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle-keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason…
The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read, but there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable-it is “smooched” from the New Testament and no credit given.”
(Mark Twain, “Roughing It”, Chapter 16)
And if you don’t believe Mark Twain or me, consider the words of Harold Bloom, American’s leading 20th Century Literary Critic:
“With the Book of Mormon, we arrive at the center of Joseph Smith’s prophetic mission, but hardly at any center of Mormonism, because of Smith’s extraordinary capacity for speculative development in the fourteen years that remained to him after its publication. The Book of Mormon was not only his first work; it is the portrait of a self-educated, powerful mind at the untried age of twenty-four. It has bravura, but beyond question it is wholly tendentious and frequently tedious. If one compares it closely to Smith’s imaginings in the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants, it seems the work of some other writer, and I don’t mean Mormon or Moroni.”
(Harold Bloom, “The American Religion”, Chu Hartley Publishers. Kindle Edition, Locations 1184-1189)
And if you’re thinking, “Well, that’s not fair, you and Harold Bloom are critiquing a 19th Century literary style based on today’s modern standards”, consider this from Alexander Campbell, the founder, and leader of Campbellism, who said this of the book only two years after it’s publication:
“These are but as one drop out of a bucket compared with the amount of Smithisms in this book. It is patched up and cemented with “And it came to pass” - “I sayeth unto you” - “Ye saith unto him” - and all the King James’ haths, dids and doths; in the lowest imitation of the common version; and is, without exaggeration, the meanest book in the English language; but it is a translation made through stone spectacles, in a dark room, and in the hat of the prophet Smith from the reformed Egyptian!!! It has not one good sentence in it, save the profanation of those sentences quoted from the Oracles of the living God. I would as soon compare a bat to the American eagle, a mouse to a mammoth, or the deformities of a specter to the beauty of Him whom John saw in Patmos, as to contrast it with a single chapter in all the writings of the Jewish or Christian prophets. It is as certainly Smith’s fabrication as Satan is the father of lies, or darkness the offspring of night. So much for the internal evidences of the Book of Mormon.”
(Alexander Campbell, “Delusions an analysis of the Book of Mormon…”, (1832), p.14)
And if that’s still not enough, I would encourage you to speak to anyone who has read the book on its own merits without having Mormon Missionaries or any other Mormon influence hovering around them and telling them what a marvelous work and a wonder this insipid mess of mangled Elizabethan English combined with antiquated 19th Century ideas (such as American Restorationism and American Anglo-Israelis) it really is.
So the question remains, then how and why can millions of Mormons all over the world claim that this horrible book is some kind of inspired glory? Enter the power of suggestion. From the 2004 edition of the current, official LdS Church Missionary Manual:
“This message of the Restoration is either true or it is not. We can know that it is true by the Holy Ghost, as promised in Moroni 10:3-5. After reading and pondering the message of the Book of Mormon, any who desire to know the truth must ask in prayer to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true. In order to do this, we address our Heavenly Father. We thank Him for our blessings and ask to know that the message of the Book of Mormon is true. No one can know of spiritual truths without prayer.
In answer to our prayers, the Holy Ghost will teach us truth through our feelings and thoughts.
Feelings that come from the Holy Ghost are powerful, but they are also usually gentle and quiet. As we begin to feel that what we are learning is true, we will desire to know all that we can about the Restoration.
Knowing that the Book of Mormon is true leads to a knowledge that Joseph Smith was called as a prophet and that the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored through him.”
(LdS Church, “Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service” (2004 edition), p.39)
Not enough? Then how about this from former LdS Church President and “Living Prophet” Thomas S. Monson?
“This morning I speak about the power of the Book of Mormon and the critical need we have as members of this Church to study, ponder, and apply its teachings in our lives. The importance of having a firm and sure testimony of the Book of Mormon cannot be overstated.
We live in a time of great trouble and wickedness. What will protect us from the sin and evil so prevalent in the world today? I maintain that a strong testimony of our Savior, Jesus Christ, and of His gospel will help see us through to safety. If you are not reading the Book of Mormon each day, please do so. If you will read it prayerfully and with a sincere desire to know the truth, the Holy Ghost will manifest its truth to you. If it is true-and I solemnly testify that it is-then Joseph Smith was a prophet who saw God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Because the Book of Mormon is true, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s Church on the earth, and the holy priesthood of God has been restored for the benefit and blessing of His children.
If you do not have a firm testimony of these things, do that which is necessary to obtain one. It is essential for you to have your own testimony in these difficult times, for the testimonies of others will carry you only so far. However, once obtained, a testimony needs to be kept vital and alive through continued obedience to the commandments of God and through daily prayer and scripture study.
My dear associates in the work of the Lord, I implore each of us to prayerfully study and ponder the Book of Mormon each day. As we do so, we will be in a position to hear the voice of the Spirit, to resist temptation, to overcome doubt and fear, and to receive heaven’s help in our lives. I so testify with all my heart in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”
(Thomas S. Monson, “The Power of the Book of Mormon”, Spring General Conference 2017)
I mean, with over-the-top hyperbole and gushing like that how can it possibly be anything but one of the greatest, most powerful, stunningly inspired, incredible, works of English literature ever produced, right?
Two words in response: Read it. Yes, read it yourself so you can experience “inspired” prose like this, for yourself:
1 Nephi 14
23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
Wow, how can you argue with circular, over-blown, repetitious, grammar-challenged, gibberish like that?
Fascinating information! Thanks, guys.
The significance of the codex form of a text is that you could write on both sides of the papiri instead of a scroll written on one side. They were able to save money on paper. P52 which is dated to about 125 ad. which is the size of a credit card has writing on both sides. This indicates that the codex form is dated to the early 2nd century and maybe late 1st century. The oldest COMPLETE codex is 4th century.
Codex is to the scroll what dvd is to the VHS. The older versions need to rolled all the way forward or back to get to bit you want.. The newer version can select to where you want, or start at beginning, and canbookmark
Love this series, but John, please stop jumping ahead. Let Mike take the lead.
My Question Exactly John! If he can come up with the names of all those other words, why could he not for the “horses and swords” . Been wondering that for a very long time.
That John the Baptist baptism part is weird to use even if you don’t consider scholarship on first-century Jewish apocalypticism, as an apologetic argument esp since those weren’t treated as legitimate for making one Christian since Paul encounters disciples in Ephesus baptized by John who he then tells that they needed to be baptized in Jesus’ name, showing that John’s baptism had a clearly distinct purpose from Jesus’ baptism. (Acts 19:1-5)
I bought the Book of Mormon since watching your show .
Thank you for another great video! I really appreciate that John points out what someone like me is thinking the whole time - if the mormon version of god really exists, then he could easily cause the peoples in the BoM to know of christ and his character before his birth. He could have caused JS to translate a more BoM-appropriate word for christ instead of "christ." He could have done any of those things.
So, for me, this is another case where the church makes itself look worse just by arguing. Their apologist arguments demand too practical of explanations for what should be considered more supernatural things. And the fact that the church searches for such explanations is telling in and of itself.
I personally think it's very, very difficult to get around the horse thing though. What Mike discusses about Deutero Isaiah, or just the multiple Isaiah authors, is difficult to contend with as well. The existence of any Isaiah at all in the BoM was always hammered into my head as proof of the BoM's validity, especially when I was serving my mission. But why? Sure, it's great that the BoM peoples would have Isaiah's prophecies. But how does that help prove the BoM's validity? It's distracting and self-defeating that the church alludes to "anti-mormon" arguments and ultimately ends up calling attention to details that shouldn't matter to believing members, but end up mattering just because the church invites investigating practical explanations for what should be supernatural events.
I also really appreciate the discussion around JS erasing Jewish culture. Christianity on the whole is already bad enough about this, but I think the mormon church is even worse, both with Lehi and his family and with the church's interpretation of new and old testament scriptures (which are mainly stolen from evangelical sermons btw but it's all pretty bad in any case). It's funny to me how the modern church advertises itself the way the catholic church did hundreds of years ago, being a christian religion that allows members to still practice their own ethnic cultures while still being mormon, and yet the BoM and mormon church culture erase Jewish culture and customs - a culture that is EXTREMELY well known for existing in just about every religion, ethnicity, and nationality on earth - into absolutely nothing as the very basis of the religion.
*Editing to add that it has ALWAYS bothered me that the BoM is supposed to contain the "fulness of the gospel" but leaves out the mention of so many key aspects of the church. It was explained to me on my mission that it's meant to mean that the BoM contains the total explanation of the atonement. But I'm pretty sure the new (AND old???) testament contains the fullness of the gospel then, too.... This part still doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I don't have a good handle on what the apologists say to explain this. But it makes too much sense that JS's views on religion changed over time... and so did the "fullness" of the gospel.
1:57:10 In the graphic displayed, is it saying that the Hebrew language was found in the Americas between 600 BC and 400 AD? Why is that one green? I thought there was no sign of there being any kind of Hebrew-like language in the Americas at that time. Are they just saying that we know there is a language called Hebrew in the world? Joseph Smith knew about Hebrew existing from a young age, I’m sure, so how is that a win for apologists? Same thing with a narrow neck of land, etc… I’m confused…
This series is 🔥
Dr Dehlin, it's obvious that there is a tremendous amount of information contained in your interviews. Is there an index of some sort of your shows?
Yes. Every show tries to provide both show notes and time codes! Sometimes it takes us a few days to get them out.
@@China-Clay I found the website. Wow! Thank you for pointing me in that direction.
Thank you
I giggled a little because perra is the female version of dog in Spanish, I'm english it would be bitch 😅, awesome series, I've never been a mormon but I find it fascinating how many errors are there on the whole doctrine, keep the good work!
Is there a good book or website that covers Book of Mormon anachronisms?
MormonThink.com
CESLetter.org
www.letterformywife.com/
www.ldsdiscussions.com/anachronisms
i'm just waiting for something like the great salt lake scrolls to be discovered that could tie all this confusion together.
Great episode. Thanks! How can one donate without using you tube?
Here you go @Stacy W - donorbox.org/mormon-stories
It seems to me that another anachronism in the Book of Mormon is Nephi's use of the term "Jews". Nephi wrote that the plates were written in the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. As I understand it, the Jewish religion did not arise until the 2nd or 3rd century BCE and the term Jew was not used until at least that time so it is anachronistic for Nephi to use that term hundreds of years earlier True?
The Aztecs actually did have a written language. The Aztec syllabary was used less than the Mayan writing, and later though. Some have arguaed it's not a full writing system, but they current evidence shows that it is. There are also other indigenous American writing systems, but all in Mesoamerica. (The Aztec civilization also began much later than the Mayan civilization, they only arrived from the north around 1300 CE)
I think I cover that on the website (not 100% sure but I thought so), but their writing system is in symbols and has no connection to Egyptian, Hebrew, or modified Latin/English.
@@LDSDiscussions All writimg systems are symbols? But yes, it's indigenous and I'm not suggesting otherwise.
@@valkeakirahvi only in the most general sense. Pictographic languages use symbols much differently than those that use symbols to represent sounds.
@@bjnslc True pictographic writing systems don't exist to my knwledge. And the Aztec syllabary uses the symbols to represent sounds.
Have you heard of 'The copper scroll,' engraved in 70 AD that describes a treasure? It was part of the dead Sea Scrolls found in cave with other later Scrolls. Curious how this engraved price of metal plays into it. Thank you for your work!
22:10
Mike made it clear there was no evidence of smelters or metal works in the America's.
Not the world.
From what I understand, one anachronism is enough to date a text, or at least rule out a date
Yep - just takes one to know it's not from an earlier timeframe.
Logically that seems to be the case. The only counter argument I can think of would be if someone was claiming a later insertion, as in "well 90% of the text is from a genuine ancient record, but some clown inserted some bogus text at a later time." (Basically the pseudepigrapha phenomenon)
But nothing in the Book of Mormon narrative allows for that counter-argument to be made.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N This does not hold for the Book of Mormon because it was dictated word by word into the seer stone by God.
Thanks!
You keep mentioning the “Late War” is there anywhere I can read this? I’m very curious as to how it sounds! I’d love a link if anyone has it.
cesletter.org
Hey John. I like your videos. I started listening to you way back in the "Pillars of my Faith" days. I think part and parcel to Joseph's "translation" comes from the myriad of tent revivals he may have gone to and the language that those preachers spoke to the crowds. "And it came to pass..." comes to mind. That's how a religeous book was supposed to sound. What are your thoughts on that? James.
Im Kinda surprised I haven't woke up one day and News flash" everyone quit being a Mormon last night, ,,,,,,
Nahuatl, (language of the Aztec) Mixtec, and many other mesoamerican languages had writing systems before European contact. The Inca used quipu, a system of knots, to record numbers, and some experts believe they might have also been able to convey enough information to be a form of language. No Indigenous groups outside of mesoamerica had written language.
👍
If Joseph didn’t actually need the plates to translate (because he’s using the hat and the peep stone) is it possible that the characters on the plates were so so tiny you couldn’t even see the words. Like imaginary words? But Joseph could see them?
There are LOTS of women in the Bible and many who play significant roles. I think John is making a good point that the lack of women in the Book of Mormon is suspicious.
34:21 the first group that comes to mind which developed a writing system and then lost it is the Greeks. Before the bronze age collapse, the Greeks had two writing systems scholars have dubbed Linear A and Linear B
Great opening point. A person who has read E.R. Burroughs series, re "Tarzan" will remember how differently the world looked even in the early 20th century when he wrote. Burroughs could write of hidden civilizations and cultures unknown to the world and have this be plausible to the reader. Likewise, Henry Morton Stanley was the first white european to cross the congo in Africa. This was in1874! The Sioux wars in Wyoming were still going on at that time. So the world of the 1830's in Missouri truly seemed a "new world" & tribal groups a mystery.
You reported that Coe addressed central America model for book of Mormon history, but do you have anyone that speaks to the idea the book of Mormon history occurred in North America, referencing the heart land model? What does the evidence look like in regards to that model?
The Lost Civilizations of North America DVD, made by LDS members, presents the idea of North America. However, non-LDS professors were so badly misrepresented in it that they made a joint public statement, followed by a 3 part series of articles about it.
Korihor was right, and is more in line with Paul's admonition to "try the spirits" than any other character in the (fictional) Book of Mo
1:44:41 Now that's not entirely honest there John, Alma 13:1-19 is specifically all about the Melchizedek priesthood: "This high priesthood being after the order of his Son... many were ordained and became high priests of God... Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken."
Doh! My bad!
What about Lehi prophesying in Jerusalem at 600 BCE. There were several prophets during that time period and the Bible records them. No Lehi mentioned in any records. If a "prophet" were telling the people repent and devastation was coming, it might be a mention in some scroll somewhere.
Throwback to the Robbers of Gadianton terrorizing the Nephite villages while riding tapirs.
Minor correction: Melchizedek and his priesthood are mentioned in the BoM. What is completely absent is any mention of the biblical Aaron or the Aaronic priesthood.
I guess I never realized so many animals were not native to north America. What type of animals were before the Europeans arrived? I can understand why Mormons would not question that. Interesting 🤔
I actually just told my BF that horses were introduced to North America by the Europeans. He immediately said "that's not true", lol. It just seems natural that they were always here. He actually didn't believe me and googled it himself! They weren't.
@@sallyostling it’s a little complicated because there are prehistoric horses, but not the same kinds that are present today. So there were ancient horses, but as Mike said, not at the time of the Book of Mormon.
Great show. Concrete evidence of the mormon fraud perpetrated on my mother and dad me and family most of whom still believe the nonsense. I discovered the animals and plants anachronisms on my own over 40 years ago. Thank you for spreading the word.
When it favors the Church they will support Anachronisms. Example: The Salamander Letter. All it took was 1 anachronism to prove it was false and the Church was so received. But noooooo with the BoM and the overwhelming anachronisms in it.
Math questions?
If I remember correctly in the BoM all of the people are of the line of Lehi. If this is so, and we now the timeline of wars and roughly the numbers of people that died in the wars.
1 : Has anyone calculated how many people could of been birthed and lived to baer children and/or fight in war?
Thinking back I don't see how they could have the numbers listed.
2: How many people does it take to re-populate if apocalyptic event happened?
From every thing I seen it al lot more then what Lehi brings to the promise land.
In my youth in Portugal Elias and Elijah were so confusing to me! Because there's only one spelling. So there was Elias, and Elias the prophet. Nothing I ever gave a second thought, even though it was confusing, I just shrugged it off. The same thing I did with most things I didn't understand....
I am curious what Bible you are referring to because in the Christian Bible Isaiah is not one of the first 5 books. Thank you in advance for clarifying. I was born and raised in a Christian home and am a Born Again Christian, never mormon, therefore I know of only 1 Bible. Thanks again.
Maybe Cureloms were everything from wild turkeys to cacao beans. Instead of "ox in a ditch" on the Sabbath, we should be saying "My Curelom's in a ditch".