The argument that "they left the church and never withdrew their witness" is not compelling. If they'd really seen the plates, would they not have "stayed in the boat?" Also, people's word was their honor. If they admitted they had lied, they'd be dishonored. Leaving the church would not suddenly make them tell on themselves.
I think some of them did remain "Mormon" but not brighamites. Eg they still believed in the BOM and became members of other groups. The Reorganised Church (now Community of Christ), Strangites, Church of Christ. William Marks for example, was a leader in the RLDS. Lucy Mack Smith and other members of the Smith family believed Mormonism was a Smith family enterprise so didn't follow the Brighamites.
I am not a Mormon and I am watching for my own journey as a Christian. I think people can lie or they can believe by false memory. Joseph Smith was good telling stories. I am not in the medical profession either, but I can see people talking like they saw things or be under the impression they did, does that make sense? Almost like our memories of our childhood. How much is our memories or what people told us happened and we think we remember. I still am trying to make sense about some of my own. Nope my English is not that bad and you understand what I wanted to convey. Joseph imho was a con man, that much I know. No offense to the believer, please.
I think the biggest thing about my deconstruction that has surprised me is the fact that there’s literally nothing about the church that doesn’t have some level of controversy associated. The BOM, the first vision, the witnesses… nothing about the church is true.
I have been Protestant, I have been Catholic, I have even been an atheist and a quasi-Buddhist, but I've never been Mormon, and yet, as friend to progressive and ex-Mormons, I find this podcast able to transport me into the historical and spiritual worlds that concern those who have. Thank you for helping me make sense of this fascinating piece of history and the personal experiences of those I love.
The one thing about the Book of Mormon witnesses that has always bothered me is why was an angel needed to show the plates to the three witnesses? Didn't JSJr already have the plates in his own possession? why did the angel need to come to them "in a vision"?
I want to share... My father walks in the room and sees me listening . (Sounds like the start of a bad joke.) He's 93 and a life long believer. He asks me , "what did the 3 witnesses see?" He always answers his own questions, "the plates and an angel". My answer, "it depends on which witness you ask.". He is now quiet. Interesting for me. (He lives with me bc of age) He's ok with me leaving the church, but he will pay his tithing until he dies.
For those looking for a good framework to decipher “truth” I came across this and found it very useful especially in regards to my deconstruction process and accepting that people can have truths that are not factual: Objective Truth: Just the facts, Ma’am. -Dragnet Subjective Truth: How you look at it is pretty much how you’ll see it. -Rasheed Ogunlaru Normative Truth: Say not, ‘I have found the truth,’ but rather, ‘I have found a truth.’ -Kahlil Gibran Complex Truth: Search for the true and useful. -HSD Institute Simple Rule Mormons inherently focus on subjective truth, that is, what they experience (think personal testimony). They think because they all have these subjective experiences (witness of the spirit), that they have found “the truth” when in reality they maybe found “a truth” based on how they look at it.
@@mormonstoriesTotally fair. Deconstructing something analytically is much less personal and private. Mike, not unlike John, has given so much of his time and energy to uncovering the truth and that reveals all we need to know about him.
If you haven't seen the previous episodes, pause, go back and ...see you in about a year or so ;) :))) I can't say that every episode of the church's history interests me, but this one definitely does. Excited to learn!
I think sometimes John rushes things because he fears the audience will get bored, but I think one unintended consequence of that is the co-hosts may feel like they have to rush through what they're saying and it can make it less coherent than if they were allowed to not feel rushed. Just an observation. I appreciate all the work that goes into these episodes! Y'all are great!
My mom used to be able to find water with dowsing rods when she was younger. I still drink water from a spring she found every year visiting our summer cottage. And a fun fact: she doesn't have a magical world view - actually she used to be a physics teacher. She doesn't have an explanation why this used to happen nor does she know why she's not that sensitive any more. And also, we live in northern Europe. I really truly wait for the science behind this to unravel. 😅 Thanks for the great show. Enjoying it!
There are books on "practical dowsing" and a long history of it being even used today by modern companies in the USA to find water. I think it gets into quantum physics. I appreciate your experience share that it is not magical thinking.
My dad had some property down in Montezuma Canyon in between Monticello, Utah and Blanding. He used to use that to find his water pipes if he needed to dig down and add a connection or other work on the pipes for his orchard. He showed me and it worked really good. He wasn’t thinking at all and I didn’t believe him, but it was pretty amazing.
That's real. I don't know why. But... someone told me it was real when I was little. So it must be true. 😂 No but I really did think that was real. Isn't it?
I think it is possible. All of us have some kind of super power. But we don’t know or use them. Maybe super power is not the word. I am a Christian, so I believe that we were made as gods images and we do know a bunch of things. But our memories or brain is clogged with our experiences and defects. I am not a doctor, but I think about memories that we really remember and the ones people told us that happened and it is in our brain as true memories. Also, I am not a student of this matter, but I think we don’t have answers for so many things. Like when we meet someone and think we already met them. Or going to a place and seeing step by step like happened before. There is no explanation for this kind of thing. In my family, we dream about things and they wind up happening. I never dream with the lotto ticket, lol. Oh, and the dream aren’t never good, what is very disturbing. I, do have mental problems, so it is very difficult to work these things out. My doctor would go nuts if I tell everything that I dream, lol. 50 minutes is never enough, lol.
What stands out to me that I never caught was they were shown by the power of God and not of man. Would that suggest that they never actually saw them physically but perhaps in a dream?
I think, imho, that as Joseph explained to them, he planted the seed of a false memory. Like the ones we might have from childhood. We don’t know for sure if we remember because someone told us that situation happened or if we really have in our memory. Does that make sense? I do have memories that I can’t for sure, today if it was someone telling me, like my mother or older sister, or if I really remember happening. It is a very interesting study. But I know for sure Joseph smith was a great tale teller.
When I stated my belief in the Book of Mormon it was due to learning about the 3 witnesses, because they left the church, but never renounced the Golden Plates. Boy was I misled. I have since left the church. Thanks, LDS Discussions and collaborators.
i just wanted to say that i appreciate all the time and dedication you all give to brining brighter light to all the dark secrets that are present in mormon church history. i’m a returned missionary currently breaking my shelf. your videos and opinions have helped me so much! best to you all! keep up the good work!
1:41:26 So glad Julia mentioned hypnosis. This can work for a group who are susceptible but may not work for one of those less easily hypnotised...hence Martin Harris being taken later and alone by Joseph.
@@colleencampbell172I am always in some kind of crisis, and I am not a Mormon. I bad when I learn it how some people leave Mormonism and become atheist. I don’t think Christianity is for all people. It is for many, but not all. I hope I am not being harsh. I do have mental problems that leads me to doubts. But God is always helping me. But this is personal and many people can’t go to that point of fragility to think they need the real Christ.
When I visited Navoo, the museum told me that Joseph only took on extra wives when women lost their husbands and needed taken care of. One gal told me Joseph had sent the husbands away from the compound and then he took the wife of each.
This is a great episode. Its really helping me understand how jospeph pulled off the con. Thats whats drawn me in as a never mormon, im perplexed/fascinated how Smith was able to get followers.
I know that this is a late post, but the belief in the truthfulness of the different witnesses was what drew me to the church. Some other truth realities started leading me from the church, but learning this information was my shelf buster. I love how LDS Discussions covers this so well.
When I listen to the discussion this time around… something about, “Back then your word meant everything…” Had me thinking… When I was 14/15, I bought some Rosicrucian books hoping to teach myself telepathy. By 15/16… I no longer believed telepathy was possible. It’s not just that magical thinking was still prevalent when JS was 14/15 - it’s also that JS still had a boy’s brain when he began treasure digging. He probably did have a fairly strong belief that he had the powers to find treasure. Especially since actual adults believed in that. Including his parents. I think at 13/14, I still had the dream/goal of someday gathering some friends and finding a spot somewhere in the US wilderness where we could start a brand new primitive tribe and create our own language and culture. In the early 1800s, that was actually still possible. Hence Utah becoming a state. So… no shock that JS would be interested in similar goals - and actually have the opportunities to pursue them. By the time JS is 25 and his brain had matured, it would be too late to start claiming those were all just childhood fancies and not true. JS would be to far indebted in several ways to admit that he was not truly The Prophet of the One True Church. Also, makes a lot of sense that JS would try to convince teen-aged girls that he’d be killed by angels if they refused to marry him. Because teen-aged girls would have brains that had not matured and would still be primed for magical thinking. It doesn’t take a lot of formal education to realize that teen-aged girls would be more impressionable than women over the age of 25.
I’m getting “I saw Goody Proctor with the devil!” Aka The Crucible here, regarding Smith’s ability to sort of “whip people up” into a spiritualistically based consensus on who can “see” what he is seeing. Really appreciate the deep dive on the culture and history of the origins of the religion.
Thanks for bringing Julia on. She is brilliant. I am so used to her bad-ass takedowns of apologists on Tik-Tok that it was also cool to see how nice and charming she is.
Thank you all for this episode. I am still active in the church. This is most important. I've ordered No man knows my history. I need this book. I have been conducting my own research on the truth of Joseph Smith. I am not far from the Palmyra Temple .
Invite an ancient metallurgy expert onto the show. Chemical etching was not a thing in 421 AD. Joseph Smith said the plates were engraved. Engraving gold wasn’t a thing either as the Mesoamericans cast their gold figurines and jewelry. The Darius plates are 1.6 cm thick each. Cuneiform renders around 2.5 words per square cm, and is one of the most condensed languages found to date. At 335,000 words in the “unsealed” portion of the Book of Mormon alone, plus the “sealed” portion, we’re talking hundreds of plates at least 1 cm thick each to be engraved. Just 100 plates would be a meter or 3.28 feet high of solid gold, weighing hundreds of pounds.
My trauma is sooo profound I can’t be around religious or pious people. I feel like my life was a waste of time at the age of 65. I’m sad and wish I could finish out my life fishing, caring for my chickens and drinking wine. 🍷 here’s to you John D. thank you
If you're not going to trust the source because it was written 50 to 60 years after the fact, then I guess we have to throw out all four gospels of the New Testament, but of course members will never concede that.
Stop interrupting each other… please.9You don’t need to recap everyone’s comments. Thank you. PS Ive watched Julia since her beginning. I love you, Julia. Well articulated thoughts . Vent over
First, thou shalt take the golden plates, then thou shalt have three whitnesses, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number of my servants, and the number of my servants shalt be three. Four shalt thou not haveth, neither haveth thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.
While being an EX Jehovah’s Witness, I think Mike, Nemo and John especially would find a book they produced called Mankind’s Search For God very interesting
Have you considered an episode about the Plan of Salvation? The sources for the ideas, going over each principle within Mormon scripture, etc. I know you've gone over individual things, i.e. premortal life in the Book of Abraham, the three kingdoms of glory, and so on, but an overview of all the principles/ideas in sequence would be a good overview I think
Smith's vision pattern/template is from Treasure Digging. "Do you see the spectacles?", "Yes. I see them.". Lawrence and Smith as they peer into their stones, observing the plates buried in the hill Cumorah, a year before their retrieval.
It would be so fun to watch Mike debate Jacob Hansen and ward radio guys. EVERY topic would be Mike just dunking on them and leaving them with zero comeback!
And this was all just about 200 years ago with so many records and statements available to go through. Now, imagine trying to figure out the new testament events... not very reliable witnesses to say the least.
I honestly believe through psychedelic teas or mushrooms, perhaps a mix of morphine and alcohol, along with Joseph’s very good ability use suggestion, wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine that he could convince anyone they are seeing an angel holding some golden plates. Hell, with those substances (which were readily available in the area he lived) I’m sure he could convince any one of us we could see it, too!
Wow, this is very good info, especially regarding them seeing the plates with their spiritual eyes, which they called 'by the power of God."' I never realized this before. I appreciate all the research you have done.
Excellent episode from a very knowledgeable panel. Great observation, John, that the only important thing these men will be remembered for is their witness, and it would be hard to leave that celebrity status then, just as it is now.
I've used rods to locate ground water. It was very interesting. I didn't believe it worked until I tried it. It was to locate a drain line from a house that we didn't know where it ran.
Exactly, as a believer, about 12 years ago, the ensign published an article about the seerstone and showed a picture of it which i read. In my faithful heart i thought, if this helped Joseph learn and grow into revelation then I should try it. A couple days later we were driving with my ex-wife and our friends and I told them i thought maybe it would be a good idea to use a seerstone to try and learn how to get revelation. Crickets!!! Lol. What can i do but laugh at myself. The funny thing is those 3 are still in and i am the one out.
It would interesting to know when tithing became such an important aspect to Mormonism. I say that because it seems the three witnesses all bought stock in this movement. Hoping to cash in like the Catholics. For me it explains Harris’ fondness to other tablets from other religions. Hedging his bets so to speak. Cowderys leaving Mormonism then returning following JS Jr’s death. If I recall Smith held a pretty tight reign on things. Maybe he cut him out of his place at the table. From the get go Joseph seemed very money driven. Almost like he spent it as quickly as he gained it.
Regarding the thinking behind modern people saying someone is a nutjob 'If this person walked around saying he could find water in the ground with a piece of wood' (paraphrased) There are many people in modern times who hold similarly wacky beliefs but aren't considered nutjobs. I know someone who truly believes in the healing power of Crystals. Although I think her belief is non-physical, at best being a placebo effect, I would not certainly not describe her as a nutjob. At any time, certain beliefs / social norms are acceptable and seem nutty at different times. Without Knowledge and education, creative beliefs will fill in the void of curiosity.
John's comment about Fawn Brodie whipping people into an hysteria where they imagined they saw something reminded me of a party I went to years ago, shortly after I'd gone inactive I confused something that was blue for green. Everybody was asked if I was colour blind, then did what people always do and started asking "What colour is this? What colour is that?" Then somebody asked, "What colour is the wall?" I said it was white, and he replied, "No, it's pink." At first I told him I was blue- green color blind, not white-pink colour blind, and he wasn't fooling me, but everybody else joined in, assuring me, again and again, that the wall was pink, and expressing their astonishmentthat i couldn't see how obviously pink it was. Well, I was very drunk and I'd smoked a lot of weed, and they played it very well - not a hint of a laugh or a grin. With time and peer pressure, I genuinely began looking at the wall and perceiving a very pale pink shade. The wall was, indeed, white. But I genuinely perceived pink. So it can happen. Mind-altering substances probably help, and obviously, there's no evidence that the witnesses had taken anything, but I doubt they'd have admitted it publicly if they had. And I imagine that state could probably be induced even without them.
At 40:20. Per David Whitmer, each witness signed the statement (see EMD 5:53; EMD 5:141 and 5:141n8; "The Original Manuscript of the Book of Mormon," Improvement Era Vol. 3, No. 1 (November 1899): 63).
In an interview with James Henry Moyle in 1885, David Whitmer said that Oliver signed for all of them. (EMD 5:140). Seems like another inconsistency. Also in the Deseret News in 1878, David Whitmer does say they signed but he has no clue where the paper is.
@@analyzingmormonism In both accounts (EMD 5:53 [1878 Deseret News] and EMD 5:141 [1885 Moyle]) the Witnesses attest to the statement. Whitmer didn't know that Oliver made a copy of the original manuscript, so the inconsistency is likely him trying to explain things (see EMD 5:141, footnote 8), especially after the passage of nearly 50 years.
Julia finally learning to speak more slowly, still not quite there but at least it's listen-able this time... Please slow it down even more. You talk in fast forward. I mean only to offer constructive criticism. I love what she has to say. SLOW. IT. DOWN. Please.
There was a massive emerging in Oklahoma City when I was a child. I remember it well. I collected the molted shells in a box I remember that the box was huge. 😃. I loved it
So in other words, 3 "witnesses" visualized the plates based on Joseph Smiths promptings. That's like considering someone a witness to a murder after the prosecutor describes it to them. 🤦♂️
Urim und Tumim von Moses, Handleitung vom grossen Propheten und Feldherrn zum Weisenstein ("Oracles of Moses, a Guide to the Philosopher's Stone by the Great Prophet and General," Nuremberg, 1737). King David was considered an expert alchemist, since he could only have raised "a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand talents of silver" for the building of the "house of the Lord" (I Chron. 22:14) by alchemical means. -Alchemy and Kabbalah, Judaica, 2008
It's a common practice to water douse I'm general. My childhood home's well was dug in 1975 and the non-mormon well digger doused to determine where to dig because I'm sure that on 1.75 acres there's significant differences in the water table.
Would you guys help us know where we can find original copies of the statement by Whitmer and the witness of Harris about other plates from different guys? It would help in presenting evidence vs heresey. Thank you for bringing this to awareness.
Bible fan fiction....I don't think I will be able to unhear this. It's sad, but that's quite an accurate description. I forgot who said that in the podcast, please help :) thank you :)
Shouldn't the demands for reaching heaven be high? This reminds me of Freud's philosophy: "You feel bad about cheating on your wife, well just let go of the idea that adultery is wrong and you'll feel better."
If you believe in a Father in Heaven that loves all his children and wants them to return to him, wouldn’t He want to make the demands to get back to him simple? Aka accept Jesus as your savior as the Bible instructs?
My husband “witches (that’s how’s it’s colloquially referred to where I’m from)” water all the time and he’s an atheist never Mormon. The science just hasn’t been fleshed out yet.
When the hill cumorah was abandoned after all the prophets swore was the big battle sites..that says it all. No apology..no explanation..whoosh..all gone.
If Martin really saw the Gold Plates with his actual eyes, then what is this following bit about? It appears that Martin nagged Joseph to see the plates, before he committed to mortgaging his farm to pay for his book, but Joseph, in a 'revelation' gave Martin strict conditions, telling him exactly what he had to say once he'd 'seen them' . With the threat of damnation if he deviated away from this. This doesn't seem necessary if he just saw the plates for real. There is a pattern of Joseph threatening Martin with Damnation to get what he wants, like the time when he wrote a whole page about how Hell is worse than he could possibly imagine, and he'd be going there if he didn't pay the printing costs. “And now, once again, I address you, my servant Joseph, regarding the man who seeks a witness. Listen carefully: He exalts himself but fails to humble himself sufficiently before me. However, if he bows down, humbling himself in fervent prayer and unwavering faith, with sincerity in his heart, then I will grant him a glimpse of the things he desires to see. Afterward, he shall declare to the people of this generation: ‘Behold, I have witnessed the things that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith Jr., and I am certain they are true. They were shown to me by the power of God, not of man.’ Furthermore, I command my servant Martin Harris to refrain from speaking further on these matters unless he testifies, ‘I have seen them, and they were revealed to me by the power of God.’ If he denies this, he will break the covenant he made with me and face condemnation.” (paraphrased with AI for readability.. if you want to check the original its in - History, 1838-1856, volume A-1 [23 December 1805-30 August 1834] page 12)
I asked AI. 'If a man wrote that to another person. Why do you think he would write it?' and the answer was.... 'If a man wrote that to another person, he would likely be asserting authority or emphasizing the importance of keeping certain information private. The tone appears serious and directive, with consequences for non-compliance. '
1:02:40 water witching/dowsing was something my dad casually taught me was a legitimate way of finding water underground. I also had a relative whose dad taught him the same that you could balance a Y-shaped branch lightly in your hands and it would dip down when you ran over water. He also defended that there were "some" who were surprisingly consistent, as if they had a "gift". It could be that they were influenced by rural farmer mentalities, but it was also a mormon town.
To expand on your point on faith Mike, we could also say that if the entire religion wasn't a flimsily fabricated fraud, there would be no need for faith.
During medieval times, the surname “Schmidt” referenced Kabbalist Alchemists. During the English pogroms, many changed their surname to “Smith” and masqueraded as Christian blacksmiths or goldsmiths. Mormonism is loaded with Kabbalah and Freemasonry.
It is there under the playlists tabs on the UA-cam channel. Note there may be several different playlists from the lds discussion series but there is one with all of them
“Urim und Tumim von Moses, Handleitung vom grossen Propheten und Feldherrn zum Weisenstein (Oracles of Moses, a Guide to the Philosopher's Stone by the Great Prophet and General, Nuremberg, 1737 AD). King David was considered an expert alchemist, since he could only have raised a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand talents of silver for the building of the house of the Lord by alchemical means.”-Alchemy and Kabbalah, Encyclopaedia Judaica, 2008 The “Schmidt” surname indicated a Jewish Alchemist in medieval Western Europe. Many changed their name to “Smith” to avoid the English pogroms.
1:09:03 Chad Daybell used a pendulum to determine who is light and who is dark, according to testimony at his trial. So I would say the traditional is alive and well unfortunately.
I love how when mike is asked if he has anything he wants to share he says “no” and then follows it immediately with a great thought
Ikr? his knowledge is amazing! I am not a Mormon, but I love his contributions even to my own journey.
Came here to say this 😂
😂 every episode. We Love Mike!
I am so glad to see Mike on there today. For some reason I thought he was done. I absolutely love his insight, research and receipts.
I remember hearing that too. From Mike and John. Wait they're false witnesses too!
You have helped me and are now helping my wife. Thank you so much.
We’ve missed Mike and are excited for this episode!
I love Julia, Mike, Nemo and JD... Mormon Stories is the Best!
The argument that "they left the church and never withdrew their witness" is not compelling. If they'd really seen the plates, would they not have "stayed in the boat?" Also, people's word was their honor. If they admitted they had lied, they'd be dishonored. Leaving the church would not suddenly make them tell on themselves.
Great point.
I think some of them did remain "Mormon" but not brighamites.
Eg they still believed in the BOM and became members of other groups.
The Reorganised Church (now Community of Christ), Strangites, Church of Christ.
William Marks for example, was a leader in the RLDS.
Lucy Mack Smith and other members of the Smith family believed Mormonism was a Smith family enterprise so didn't follow the Brighamites.
I am not a Mormon and I am watching for my own journey as a Christian. I think people can lie or they can believe by false memory. Joseph Smith was good telling stories. I am not in the medical profession either, but I can see people talking like they saw things or be under the impression they did, does that make sense? Almost like our memories of our childhood. How much is our memories or what people told us happened and we think we remember. I still am trying to make sense about some of my own. Nope my English is not that bad and you understand what I wanted to convey. Joseph imho was a con man, that much I know. No offense to the believer, please.
A thought from Bruce Blankenship: magic mushrooms or hypnosis. Thoughts?💭
@@PatriciaNoel-qp2ff neither
I think the biggest thing about my deconstruction that has surprised me is the fact that there’s literally nothing about the church that doesn’t have some level of controversy associated. The BOM, the first vision, the witnesses… nothing about the church is true.
Yes, when the foundation of Mormonism is cracked everything built upon it is fractured. Russell M Nelson and credibility are opposites!
This was same for me - realizing that every important aspect has massive depth and breadth issues.
I have been Protestant, I have been Catholic, I have even been an atheist and a quasi-Buddhist, but I've never been Mormon, and yet, as friend to progressive and ex-Mormons, I find this podcast able to transport me into the historical and spiritual worlds that concern those who have. Thank you for helping me make sense of this fascinating piece of history and the personal experiences of those I love.
I’m watching this show with my spiritual eyes!
Oh! I love that you are back together!!! ❤❤❤
I am not even a Mormon and I like to listen to them.
The one thing about the Book of Mormon witnesses that has always bothered me is why was an angel needed to show the plates to the three witnesses? Didn't JSJr already have the plates in his own possession? why did the angel need to come to them "in a vision"?
I want to share... My father walks in the room and sees me listening . (Sounds like the start of a bad joke.) He's 93 and a life long believer. He asks me , "what did the 3 witnesses see?" He always answers his own questions, "the plates and an angel".
My answer, "it depends on which witness you ask.". He is now quiet.
Interesting for me. (He lives with me bc of age)
He's ok with me leaving the church, but he will pay his tithing until he dies.
Just in case 😊
For those looking for a good framework to decipher “truth” I came across this and found it very useful especially in regards to my deconstruction process and accepting that people can have truths that are not factual:
Objective Truth: Just the facts, Ma’am. -Dragnet
Subjective Truth: How you look at it is pretty much how you’ll see it. -Rasheed Ogunlaru
Normative Truth: Say not, ‘I have found the truth,’ but rather, ‘I have found a truth.’ -Kahlil Gibran
Complex Truth: Search for the true and useful. -HSD Institute Simple Rule
Mormons inherently focus on subjective truth, that is, what they experience (think personal testimony). They think because they all have these subjective experiences (witness of the spirit), that they have found “the truth” when in reality they maybe found “a truth” based on how they look at it.
Thank you all for this interesting episode!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Has Mike ever been a guest as a regular mormon stories interview? I'd like to hear more about his story and faith crisis
He’s not in a place to do that right now.
@@mormonstoriesTotally fair. Deconstructing something analytically is much less personal and private. Mike, not unlike John, has given so much of his time and energy to uncovering the truth and that reveals all we need to know about him.
No. They're not credible. That said, I still can't wait for the video!
If you haven't seen the previous episodes, pause, go back and ...see you in about a year or so ;) :))) I can't say that every episode of the church's history interests me, but this one definitely does. Excited to learn!
An episode on why the Church demolished the visitor's centers at Temple Square would be quite interesting.
I think sometimes John rushes things because he fears the audience will get bored, but I think one unintended consequence of that is the co-hosts may feel like they have to rush through what they're saying and it can make it less coherent than if they were allowed to not feel rushed. Just an observation. I appreciate all the work that goes into these episodes! Y'all are great!
My mom used to be able to find water with dowsing rods when she was younger. I still drink water from a spring she found every year visiting our summer cottage. And a fun fact: she doesn't have a magical world view - actually she used to be a physics teacher. She doesn't have an explanation why this used to happen nor does she know why she's not that sensitive any more. And also, we live in northern Europe.
I really truly wait for the science behind this to unravel. 😅
Thanks for the great show. Enjoying it!
There are books on "practical dowsing" and a long history of it being even used today by modern companies in the USA to find water. I think it gets into quantum physics. I appreciate your experience share that it is not magical thinking.
My dad had some property down in Montezuma Canyon in between Monticello, Utah and Blanding. He used to use that to find his water pipes if he needed to dig down and add a connection or other work on the pipes for his orchard. He showed me and it worked really good. He wasn’t thinking at all and I didn’t believe him, but it was pretty amazing.
That's real.
I don't know why.
But... someone told me it was real when I was little.
So it must be true. 😂
No but I really did think that was real. Isn't it?
I’m from Idaho and we used to call them water witches! Apparently they did work! Not sure how! But my dad used one
I think it is possible. All of us have some kind of super power. But we don’t know or use them. Maybe super power is not the word. I am a Christian, so I believe that we were made as gods images and we do know a bunch of things. But our memories or brain is clogged with our experiences and defects. I am not a doctor, but I think about memories that we really remember and the ones people told us that happened and it is in our brain as true memories. Also, I am not a student of this matter, but I think we don’t have answers for so many things. Like when we meet someone and think we already met them. Or going to a place and seeing step by step like happened before. There is no explanation for this kind of thing. In my family, we dream about things and they wind up happening. I never dream with the lotto ticket, lol. Oh, and the dream aren’t never good, what is very disturbing. I, do have mental problems, so it is very difficult to work these things out. My doctor would go nuts if I tell everything that I dream, lol. 50 minutes is never enough, lol.
What stands out to me that I never caught was they were shown by the power of God and not of man. Would that suggest that they never actually saw them physically but perhaps in a dream?
I think, imho, that as Joseph explained to them, he planted the seed of a false memory. Like the ones we might have from childhood. We don’t know for sure if we remember because someone told us that situation happened or if we really have in our memory. Does that make sense? I do have memories that I can’t for sure, today if it was someone telling me, like my mother or older sister, or if I really remember happening. It is a very interesting study. But I know for sure Joseph smith was a great tale teller.
When I stated my belief in the Book of Mormon it was due to learning about the 3 witnesses, because they left the church, but never renounced the Golden Plates. Boy was I misled. I have since left the church. Thanks, LDS Discussions and collaborators.
Thank you Julia for slowing it down a bit. I enjoy hearing what you bring. Still a bit fast for me!
I’m so sorry! I need to do better!
i just wanted to say that i appreciate all the time and dedication you all give to brining brighter light to all the dark secrets that are present in mormon church history. i’m a returned missionary currently breaking my shelf. your videos and opinions have helped me so much! best to you all! keep up the good work!
1:41:26 So glad Julia mentioned hypnosis. This can work for a group who are susceptible but may not work for one of those less easily hypnotised...hence Martin Harris being taken later and alone by Joseph.
I think it would be so interesting to see an episode about "Mormon Jesus" versus mainstream "Christian Jesus". Maybe even Catholic Jesus!
The Mormon Jesus can’t save anyone and we need to get that info out as often as possible!!
That would be a great discussion actually😊 especially for someone whose left Mormonism & isn't familiar w other versions of Jesus .
@@colleencampbell172 The regular Christian Jesus can't save you either; he's dead.
@@colleencampbell172I agree, but I’m wondering, save us from what🤷♀️
@@colleencampbell172I am always in some kind of crisis, and I am not a Mormon. I bad when I learn it how some people leave Mormonism and become atheist. I don’t think Christianity is for all people. It is for many, but not all. I hope I am not being harsh. I do have mental problems that leads me to doubts. But God is always helping me. But this is personal and many people can’t go to that point of fragility to think they need the real Christ.
39:29 "I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified." -Mark Twain
When I visited Navoo, the museum told me that Joseph only took on extra wives when women lost their husbands and needed taken care of. One gal told me Joseph had sent the husbands away from the compound and then he took the wife of each.
Yeah. Not true.
This is a great episode. Its really helping me understand how jospeph pulled off the con. Thats whats drawn me in as a never mormon, im perplexed/fascinated how Smith was able to get followers.
I know that this is a late post, but the belief in the truthfulness of the different witnesses was what drew me to the church. Some other truth realities started leading me from the church, but learning this information was my shelf buster. I love how LDS Discussions covers this so well.
Thank you for your critical analysis of all of the witnesses. You are doing God’s work. Great discussion.
When I listen to the discussion this time around… something about, “Back then your word meant everything…”
Had me thinking…
When I was 14/15, I bought some Rosicrucian books hoping to teach myself telepathy.
By 15/16… I no longer believed telepathy was possible.
It’s not just that magical thinking was still prevalent when JS was 14/15 - it’s also that JS still had a boy’s brain when he began treasure digging.
He probably did have a fairly strong belief that he had the powers to find treasure.
Especially since actual adults believed in that. Including his parents.
I think at 13/14, I still had the dream/goal of someday gathering some friends and finding a spot somewhere in the US wilderness where we could start a brand new primitive tribe and create our own language and culture.
In the early 1800s, that was actually still possible. Hence Utah becoming a state.
So… no shock that JS would be interested in similar goals - and actually have the opportunities to pursue them.
By the time JS is 25 and his brain had matured, it would be too late to start claiming those were all just childhood fancies and not true.
JS would be to far indebted in several ways to admit that he was not truly The Prophet of the One True Church.
Also, makes a lot of sense that JS would try to convince teen-aged girls that he’d be killed by angels if they refused to marry him.
Because teen-aged girls would have brains that had not matured and would still be primed for magical thinking.
It doesn’t take a lot of formal education to realize that teen-aged girls would be more impressionable than women over the age of 25.
I’m getting “I saw Goody Proctor with the devil!” Aka The Crucible here, regarding Smith’s ability to sort of “whip people up” into a spiritualistically based consensus on who can “see” what he is seeing. Really appreciate the deep dive on the culture and history of the origins of the religion.
Wonderful Episode Today!
Thanks for bringing Julia on. She is brilliant. I am so used to her bad-ass takedowns of apologists on Tik-Tok that it was also cool to see how nice and charming she is.
Thank you!
Thank you all for this episode. I am still active in the church. This is most important. I've ordered No man knows my history. I need this book. I have been conducting my own research on the truth of Joseph Smith. I am not far from the Palmyra Temple .
That’s an excellent book!
@@analyzingmormonism I am looking forward to reading it
Invite an ancient metallurgy expert onto the show. Chemical etching was not a thing in 421 AD. Joseph Smith said the plates were engraved. Engraving gold wasn’t a thing either as the Mesoamericans cast their gold figurines and jewelry. The Darius plates are 1.6 cm thick each. Cuneiform renders around 2.5 words per square cm, and is one of the most condensed languages found to date. At 335,000 words in the “unsealed” portion of the Book of Mormon alone, plus the “sealed” portion, we’re talking hundreds of plates at least 1 cm thick each to be engraved. Just 100 plates would be a meter or 3.28 feet high of solid gold, weighing hundreds of pounds.
Ya they've covered this topic pretty well in an earlier lds discussions episode
Finally circled around I clicked on this vid when it came out but I decided to listen from the beginning and I’m back to where I started. 🎉🎉🎉
It's like I'm watching a Bible study full of PTSD victims.
Most people come out of Mormonism with PTSD because its so traumatizing.
@@lifeaccordingtotheo9643agree 💯 %
My trauma is sooo profound I can’t be around religious or pious people. I feel like my life was a waste of time at the age of 65. I’m sad and wish I could finish out my life fishing, caring for my chickens and drinking wine. 🍷 here’s to you John D. thank you
If you're not going to trust the source because it was written 50 to 60 years after the fact, then I guess we have to throw out all four gospels of the New Testament, but of course members will never concede that.
growing up lds, exmo now, the assignment of readers on these always makes me chuckle.
Stop interrupting each other… please.9You don’t need to recap everyone’s comments. Thank you.
PS Ive watched Julia since her beginning. I love you, Julia. Well articulated thoughts .
Vent over
First, thou shalt take the golden plates, then thou shalt have three whitnesses, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number of my servants, and the number of my servants shalt be three. Four shalt thou not haveth, neither haveth thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.
While being an EX Jehovah’s Witness, I think Mike, Nemo and John especially would find a book they produced called Mankind’s Search For God very interesting
That was a good book.
Who's Heavenly mother in Mormonism?
I wonder that too.
Am abstract being that they acknowledge as a co creator but no one is supposed to pray to her or talk much about her.
Have you considered an episode about the Plan of Salvation? The sources for the ideas, going over each principle within Mormon scripture, etc. I know you've gone over individual things, i.e. premortal life in the Book of Abraham, the three kingdoms of glory, and so on, but an overview of all the principles/ideas in sequence would be a good overview I think
Cool trailer! ❤❤
Smith's vision pattern/template is from Treasure Digging. "Do you see the spectacles?", "Yes. I see them.". Lawrence and Smith as they peer into their stones, observing the plates buried in the hill Cumorah, a year before their retrieval.
Excellent excellent video. Every one of you are amazing in your research documentation and facts.
It would be so fun to watch Mike debate Jacob Hansen and ward radio guys. EVERY topic would be Mike just dunking on them and leaving them with zero comeback!
And this was all just about 200 years ago with so many records and statements available to go through. Now, imagine trying to figure out the new testament events... not very reliable witnesses to say the least.
I honestly believe through psychedelic teas or mushrooms, perhaps a mix of morphine and alcohol, along with Joseph’s very good ability use suggestion, wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine that he could convince anyone they are seeing an angel holding some golden plates. Hell, with those substances (which were readily available in the area he lived) I’m sure he could convince any one of us we could see it, too!
Wow, this is very good info, especially regarding them seeing the plates with their spiritual eyes, which they called 'by the power of God."' I never realized this before. I appreciate all the research you have done.
Excellent episode from a very knowledgeable panel. Great observation, John, that the only important thing these men will be remembered for is their witness, and it would be hard to leave that celebrity status then, just as it is now.
I've used rods to locate ground water. It was very interesting. I didn't believe it worked until I tried it. It was to locate a drain line from a house that we didn't know where it ran.
Exactly, as a believer, about 12 years ago, the ensign published an article about the seerstone and showed a picture of it which i read. In my faithful heart i thought, if this helped Joseph learn and grow into revelation then I should try it. A couple days later we were driving with my ex-wife and our friends and I told them i thought maybe it would be a good idea to use a seerstone to try and learn how to get revelation. Crickets!!! Lol. What can i do but laugh at myself. The funny thing is those 3 are still in and i am the one out.
I was super disturbed when I saw that article. It was so wild to me!
You can’t watch this and believe in the church at the same time. Unless you don’t have a brain. Love these episodes ❤️🩹
you look presentable... thank you ...
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
I looked up seer stones on google. You can order pretty ones from Australia, but they are from the ema river in Brazil. They are very inexpensive.
I have irocks for sell
Order one. Let us know what you see.
Even the Book of Mormon sounds good in a British accent!
It would interesting to know when tithing became such an important aspect to Mormonism. I say that because it seems the three witnesses all bought stock in this movement. Hoping to cash in like the Catholics. For me it explains Harris’ fondness to other tablets from other religions. Hedging his bets so to speak. Cowderys leaving Mormonism then returning following JS Jr’s death. If I recall Smith held a pretty tight reign on things. Maybe he cut him out of his place at the table. From the get go Joseph seemed very money driven. Almost like he spent it as quickly as he gained it.
Regarding the thinking behind modern people saying someone is a nutjob 'If this person walked around saying he could find water in the ground with a piece of wood' (paraphrased)
There are many people in modern times who hold similarly wacky beliefs but aren't considered nutjobs. I know someone who truly believes in the healing power of Crystals. Although I think her belief is non-physical, at best being a placebo effect, I would not certainly not describe her as a nutjob.
At any time, certain beliefs / social norms are acceptable and seem nutty at different times. Without Knowledge and education, creative beliefs will fill in the void of curiosity.
John's comment about Fawn Brodie whipping people into an hysteria where they imagined they saw something reminded me of a party I went to years ago, shortly after I'd gone inactive
I confused something that was blue for green. Everybody was asked if I was colour blind, then did what people always do and started asking "What colour is this? What colour is that?"
Then somebody asked, "What colour is the wall?" I said it was white, and he replied, "No, it's pink."
At first I told him I was blue- green color blind, not white-pink colour blind, and he wasn't fooling me, but everybody else joined in, assuring me, again and again, that the wall was pink, and expressing their astonishmentthat i couldn't see how obviously pink it was.
Well, I was very drunk and I'd smoked a lot of weed, and they played it very well - not a hint of a laugh or a grin. With time and peer pressure, I genuinely began looking at the wall and perceiving a very pale pink shade.
The wall was, indeed, white. But I genuinely perceived pink.
So it can happen. Mind-altering substances probably help, and obviously, there's no evidence that the witnesses had taken anything, but I doubt they'd have admitted it publicly if they had. And I imagine that state could probably be induced even without them.
At 40:20. Per David Whitmer, each witness signed the statement (see EMD 5:53; EMD 5:141 and 5:141n8; "The Original Manuscript of the Book of Mormon," Improvement Era Vol. 3, No. 1 (November 1899): 63).
In an interview with James Henry Moyle in 1885, David Whitmer said that Oliver signed for all of them. (EMD 5:140). Seems like another inconsistency. Also in the Deseret News in 1878, David Whitmer does say they signed but he has no clue where the paper is.
@@analyzingmormonism In both accounts (EMD 5:53 [1878 Deseret News] and EMD 5:141 [1885 Moyle]) the Witnesses attest to the statement. Whitmer didn't know that Oliver made a copy of the original manuscript, so the inconsistency is likely him trying to explain things (see EMD 5:141, footnote 8), especially after the passage of nearly 50 years.
Julia finally learning to speak more slowly, still not quite there but at least it's listen-able this time... Please slow it down even more. You talk in fast forward. I mean only to offer constructive criticism. I love what she has to say. SLOW. IT. DOWN. Please.
Thank you! I guess when you have 14 siblings you have to speak fast to be heard 😅 I’ll try and do better!
There was a massive emerging in Oklahoma City when I was a child. I remember it well. I collected the molted shells in a box I remember that the box was huge. 😃. I loved it
Looking forward to this one 👌
So in other words, 3 "witnesses" visualized the plates based on Joseph Smiths promptings. That's like considering someone a witness to a murder after the prosecutor describes it to them. 🤦♂️
Urim und Tumim von Moses, Handleitung vom grossen Propheten und Feldherrn zum Weisenstein ("Oracles of Moses, a Guide to the Philosopher's Stone by the Great Prophet and General," Nuremberg, 1737). King David was considered an expert alchemist, since he could only have raised "a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand talents of silver" for the building of the "house of the Lord" (I Chron. 22:14) by alchemical means. -Alchemy and Kabbalah, Judaica, 2008
I like the typical day "finds" in the mix.
It's a common practice to water douse I'm general. My childhood home's well was dug in 1975 and the non-mormon well digger doused to determine where to dig because I'm sure that on 1.75 acres there's significant differences in the water table.
Would you guys help us know where we can find original copies of the statement by Whitmer and the witness of Harris about other plates from different guys? It would help in presenting evidence vs heresey. Thank you for bringing this to awareness.
Yes! I can absolutely make those accessible on my website!
Bible fan fiction....I don't think I will be able to unhear this. It's sad, but that's quite an accurate description. I forgot who said that in the podcast, please help :) thank you :)
It's said a lot on mormon stories, In a lot of different videos.
@@LongJourneys got it, thank you )
The three witnesses never denied their testimony...Charles Manson's followers never denied their testimony either 😮
Shouldn't the demands for reaching heaven be high? This reminds me of Freud's philosophy: "You feel bad about cheating on your wife, well just let go of the idea that adultery is wrong and you'll feel better."
If you believe in a Father in Heaven that loves all his children and wants them to return to him, wouldn’t He want to make the demands to get back to him simple? Aka accept Jesus as your savior as the Bible instructs?
@@FATMEESTER I dont believe in that but that being said no religion is simple especially Mormonism with all of its demands
My husband “witches (that’s how’s it’s colloquially referred to where I’m from)” water all the time and he’s an atheist never Mormon. The science just hasn’t been fleshed out yet.
Faith of a child, as the Mormon Church is fond of saying, seems necessary in a lot of cases.
When the hill cumorah was abandoned after all the prophets swore was the big battle sites..that says it all. No apology..no explanation..whoosh..all gone.
If Martin really saw the Gold Plates with his actual eyes, then what is this following bit about? It appears that Martin nagged Joseph to see the plates, before he committed to mortgaging his farm to pay for his book, but Joseph, in a 'revelation' gave Martin strict conditions, telling him exactly what he had to say once he'd 'seen them' . With the threat of damnation if he deviated away from this. This doesn't seem necessary if he just saw the plates for real. There is a pattern of Joseph threatening Martin with Damnation to get what he wants, like the time when he wrote a whole page about how Hell is worse than he could possibly imagine, and he'd be going there if he didn't pay the printing costs.
“And now, once again, I address you, my servant Joseph, regarding the man who seeks a witness. Listen carefully: He exalts himself but fails to humble himself sufficiently before me. However, if he bows down, humbling himself in fervent prayer and unwavering faith, with sincerity in his heart, then I will grant him a glimpse of the things he desires to see. Afterward, he shall declare to the people of this generation: ‘Behold, I have witnessed the things that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith Jr., and I am certain they are true. They were shown to me by the power of God, not of man.’ Furthermore, I command my servant Martin Harris to refrain from speaking further on these matters unless he testifies, ‘I have seen them, and they were revealed to me by the power of God.’ If he denies this, he will break the covenant he made with me and face condemnation.”
(paraphrased with AI for readability.. if you want to check the original its in - History, 1838-1856, volume A-1 [23 December 1805-30 August 1834] page 12)
I asked AI. 'If a man wrote that to another person. Why do you think he would write it?' and the answer was.... 'If a man wrote that to another person, he would likely be asserting authority or emphasizing the importance of keeping certain information private. The tone appears serious and directive, with consequences for non-compliance. '
1:02:40 water witching/dowsing was something my dad casually taught me was a legitimate way of finding water underground.
I also had a relative whose dad taught him the same that you could balance a Y-shaped branch lightly in your hands and it would dip down when you ran over water. He also defended that there were "some" who were surprisingly consistent, as if they had a "gift".
It could be that they were influenced by rural farmer mentalities, but it was also a mormon town.
To expand on your point on faith Mike, we could also say that if the entire religion wasn't a flimsily fabricated fraud, there would be no need for faith.
Printer's Manuscript is what's in JSP, not Original Manuscript, though they did include parts of OM in the JSP
Well witching is still practiced today. There may some science to it.
Regarding throwing out late sources. If we do that here do we also need to throw out Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
During medieval times, the surname “Schmidt” referenced Kabbalist Alchemists. During the English pogroms, many changed their surname to “Smith” and masqueraded as Christian blacksmiths or goldsmiths. Mormonism is loaded with Kabbalah and Freemasonry.
I couldn’t find “LDS discussion series” what is it saved as, under your playlist?
It is there under the playlists tabs on the UA-cam channel. Note there may be several different playlists from the lds discussion series but there is one with all of them
The playlist Is called "lds discussions, an examination of mormon truth claims" its petty far down and has 53 videos in the Playlist
Nemo is great
Great video
Thanks!
29:10 very interesting point!
Really amazing content.
I have Mormon family members who think divining rods are real. 🙄
They are used all over Southern Africa to find water. Not by Mormons.
Are you saying you think they work? If so, how?@@personofinterest8731
NOTE: I said that William McLelllin had plates, but I misspoke. I was just Gladden Bishop and James Strang who had the plates.
I'll talk more about this in part four of this series about the witnesses. I apologize for my mistake.
“Urim und Tumim von Moses, Handleitung vom grossen Propheten und Feldherrn zum Weisenstein (Oracles of Moses, a Guide to the Philosopher's Stone by the Great Prophet and General, Nuremberg, 1737 AD). King David was considered an expert alchemist, since he could only have raised a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand talents of silver for the building of the house of the Lord by alchemical means.”-Alchemy and Kabbalah, Encyclopaedia Judaica, 2008
The “Schmidt” surname indicated a Jewish Alchemist in medieval Western Europe. Many changed their name to “Smith” to avoid the English pogroms.
At 39:30. Note that the 3 Witness vision occurred in June 1829. Oliver Cowdery married Elizabeth Whitmer in December 1832.
Oh that’s a good note! But he is related to the Smiths anyway as a distant cousin.
Excellent
Thank you! Cheers!
1:09:03 Chad Daybell used a pendulum to determine who is light and who is dark, according to testimony at his trial. So I would say the traditional is alive and well unfortunately.
Short version: Mormonism is based on a fictional book, written by a storytelling dude who gained money, power, and sex with multiple women. Right?
Lars Nielsen Book How the Book of Mormon came to pass is very interesting.
I watched the movie on this, about Joseph Smith findings. Of course i was like 💯 on this. Thank you for sharing y’all’s thoughts on it. 🦋🦋🦋