UPDATE 03.08.2023 - cc immunity during sword tiger step is back - flails now daze units with regular attacks UPDATE 14.07.2023 - Flails no longer ignore block - they break it (it's a buff) - Very Heavy Armor trait got bufffed - they start with 48% dmg reduction which goes down to 18% after they get hit 12 times. It resets when you swap units - Flails now almost permamently reduce target defense by 10% UPDATE 06.02.2023 Reapers got shadow nerfed. They no longer have cc immunity on tiger step. UPDATE 10.11.2022 Yet another buff to flails. Personally I switched to the middle line. Mid line flail charge can wipe braced Varangians. They are also cc immune for 10s after using charge. - Their flail charge will inflict “Sunder” to enemy shield infantry. Sunder greatly reduces the armor penetration and defences of that unit for a short time. - Flail charge always breaks the enemy's block and knocks enemies down (previously sent them flying). Also dazes enemy heroes - Flail charge now hits twice, with the first being the collision for blunt damage and then they strike for extra blunt damage. - They now form into a tighter “Column” formation. UPDATE 26.10.2022 They are buffing their flail charge and increasing dmg in sword mode. So flail charge into sword tiger step is going to be a standard combo: Base blunt armor penetration and blunt damage increased by 30% when using “Charge” with their flails. “Dual Wielders”: Damage dealt to infantry increased by 10% when using swords, and damage dealt to shield infantry increased by 30% when using flail charge. UPDATE 24.03.2022 I just retested the attack speed nodes and can confirm that they work - reapers with atk speed nodes easily win with the reapers without them. However, it's still not worth to go for top + mid, to get both attack speed nodes, so it doesn't really matter ;) Please subscribe if you find my videos useful :) ua-cam.com/channels/k-2-1AZmA4hV_wBT0mEzcw.html Sweeping strike fix test results: without: 5 hits with sword, 3 hits with flail ua-cam.com/video/G884QUFLdjY/v-deo.html with: 6 hits with sword, 4 hits with flail (but I think it's due to the knockdown, didn't test it tho) ua-cam.com/video/SGvWTiMF-bU/v-deo.html I still don't think it's worth it - you spend too many points in the middle line, which could be better used elsewhere. Link to my test spreadsheet (if you like to look at random nubmbers ;)): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JGi9MPZoRi9VCgANMw7uPaVZnb3qvUmK8SAQPN0Jevw/edit?usp=sharing
So they question is, if the attack speed node in top line work are are worth it, what would you sacrifice to get them? Assuming the setup you used in the video, either Hero stun or 18% rear dmg reduction. In my opinion, having both stun and rear dmg reduction are worth more than the attack speed. What do you think?
@@sonsoffishes1 Yeah, imo stun is the must. So you would need to trade 18% rear dmg reduction and 10% hero dmg reduction for 24% (?) dps. I think they will die to easily (i like having them super tanky) without rear dmg reduction. BUT, now I need to check this top-until-atk-speed-plus-bottom vs full top
@@SuperKitowiec to clarify what you said, top line atk speed + Stun + the rest in bottom is better than Stun + bottom to 10% Hero reduction + the rest in top? Interesting! Yeah I think testing in sieges would be good because the biggest threats are rear attacks from Units and Heroes imo. Thanks for checking this and look forward to anything else you come up with!
@@sonsoffishes1 with 1) full top + stun + rest in bot 2) top till atk speed + stun + Rest in bot 3) bottom without last node + stun + rest in top 1 beats 2 1 beats 3 But as you said, in 1v1 there is not much rear attacks going on. I didn't check 2) Vs 3). And now I'm wondering how 3) Vs 1) would go if I moved reapers behind enemy during fight (I always thought that's not a great idea because enemy will get free hits in the meantime)
Full mid and the last points to the bottom, what i play from the start... and it good, about the sweeping strike, before the rework, i seen it working only in charge, it good only when you charge from F2 to horde of enemies
A patch came out today that said it fixed a bug on the sweeping strike veterancy node which they said wasn't working. I'm pretty sure you made this recording prior to that patch so is it safe to assume that node works now to increase number of targets on a single swing. Great video though, you always make such intricate and detailed testing. Thank you so much.
Yes, I tested it before posting and it didn't change my mind. It's still not worth the points. In unit training I had 5 targets hit without the node and 6 with it (swords). No effect on flails. Clips are on the discord if you want to take a look ;)
What I clearly saw that with flail reaper can hit multiple targets 3:12 they hit 3 units with flail. So did you take SS node or not when test that time? Flail hit box is just too small for them to do AOE dmg. Also will they get CC imm when using 2 with flail? Also if I use 2 skill and use X V, does it cancel imm cc?
1. They can hit 3 with flail without SS. I'm quite sure they can hit 4 with knockdown (without SS), but I didn't test it properly) 2. They are not immune to cc when using 2 with flail 3. I didn't check x-v with 2. I think it's better to let them do their thing when 2 is active.
I'm afraid that iron reapers got powercrept into extinction. They would have to buff them to make them playable. Currently the guide would come down to 'don't use them' :P
If you get +20% damage increase charging with swords shouldn’t you charge as often as you can? Or still charge in with flail just to knock them down then immediately switch to swords?
1. Flail charge won't knock down without mid line and I don't think it's worth taking 2. I don't charge because this 20% isn't worth spreading your unit (it's much easier to kill single models) and you risk running into pikes and killing yourself due to the speed modifier. You have much more control when you X your reapers closer to enemy and press 2. I use charge when I need to quickly close the distance and even then I often stop them before the impact and press 2
@@SuperKitowiec will you lose tiger step when you do a short charge mid-fight? I sometimes do that with swords to add a burst during meat grind and it seemed to be helpful
@@SuperKitowiec just did a little test, they can still perform dash attack after charge. So tiger step then charge during mid fight to add a burst won’t cancel tiger step.
@@yuchenyang1708 hmmm i don't know about charging mid-fight. It has some windup animation, so in theory you lose a swing in favour of slightly stronger hit. Imo it makes sense after Tiger step wears of and not during it. But I guess I need to see it in game to judge properly ;)
Its kinda sad, that u upload a video, say sweeping strike makes no difference, despite beeing one day after patch day and they patched the sweeping strike (hit 1 more enemy). i am afraid u did not test it again and knowing to put a video together take some time, i would be suprised if u would have made in time a retry on sweeping strike. so i strongly reccomend u to try it again since in official patchnotes its marked as a fixed bug: "Resolved an issue where the Iron Reaper's “Sweeping Strike” Veterancy Point didn't increase the number of targets hit." greetz
Actually I did test it before posting ;) I mentioned in the video that I don't think this patch will change much and imo that was the case. I got 5 targets hit without sweeping and 6 with. It's too many points spent in middle line which could be better used in top or bottom. I will put it in the pinned comment to avoid further confusion
@@SuperKitowiec Well, it says u hit more and that u did, so its fine. thing is, what u need to consider. what are u fighting with reapers? its a shock troop, so u fight mostly shield units and not peasants. due to the nature of the unit and enemies, flail may be bad on none shield units, its way more powerfull against shielded units with falil, then with sword. just look the meta. stallwarts, paladins, palace guard, time to time maidens. all strong and most important active blocks where u do nothing with sword. i like that sword is now a viable option against soft targets, but over all the old playstyle still the best with option of sword usage against soft targets. but thats just my 2 cents
I would agree with you if there was no cc immunity on the swords. It's just too strong and you need to be really confident that nothing will cc your reapers before you use flails. But maybe using flails after tiger step expires wouldn't be that bad idea? I guess, there is still a lot of room to experiment with them :)
Too bad they still die in a matter of frames when cav or pikes touch them, 1k+ piercing defence really doesn't matter for most t4/5 piercing damage users.
UPDATE 03.08.2023
- cc immunity during sword tiger step is back
- flails now daze units with regular attacks
UPDATE 14.07.2023
- Flails no longer ignore block - they break it (it's a buff)
- Very Heavy Armor trait got bufffed - they start with 48% dmg reduction which goes down to 18% after they get hit 12 times. It resets when you swap units
- Flails now almost permamently reduce target defense by 10%
UPDATE 06.02.2023
Reapers got shadow nerfed. They no longer have cc immunity on tiger step.
UPDATE 10.11.2022
Yet another buff to flails. Personally I switched to the middle line. Mid line flail charge can wipe braced Varangians. They are also cc immune for 10s after using charge.
- Their flail charge will inflict “Sunder” to enemy shield infantry. Sunder greatly reduces the armor penetration and defences of that unit for a short time.
- Flail charge always breaks the enemy's block and knocks enemies down (previously sent them flying). Also dazes enemy heroes
- Flail charge now hits twice, with the first being the collision for blunt damage and then they strike for extra blunt damage.
- They now form into a tighter “Column” formation.
UPDATE 26.10.2022
They are buffing their flail charge and increasing dmg in sword mode. So flail charge into sword tiger step is going to be a standard combo:
Base blunt armor penetration and blunt damage increased by 30% when using “Charge” with their flails.
“Dual Wielders”: Damage dealt to infantry increased by 10% when using swords, and damage dealt to shield infantry increased by 30% when using flail charge.
UPDATE 24.03.2022
I just retested the attack speed nodes and can confirm that they work - reapers with atk speed nodes easily win with the reapers without them. However, it's still not worth to go for top + mid, to get both attack speed nodes, so it doesn't really matter ;)
Please subscribe if you find my videos useful :) ua-cam.com/channels/k-2-1AZmA4hV_wBT0mEzcw.html
Sweeping strike fix test results:
without: 5 hits with sword, 3 hits with flail ua-cam.com/video/G884QUFLdjY/v-deo.html
with: 6 hits with sword, 4 hits with flail (but I think it's due to the knockdown, didn't test it tho) ua-cam.com/video/SGvWTiMF-bU/v-deo.html
I still don't think it's worth it - you spend too many points in the middle line, which could be better used elsewhere.
Link to my test spreadsheet (if you like to look at random nubmbers ;)): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JGi9MPZoRi9VCgANMw7uPaVZnb3qvUmK8SAQPN0Jevw/edit?usp=sharing
So they question is, if the attack speed node in top line work are are worth it, what would you sacrifice to get them? Assuming the setup you used in the video, either Hero stun or 18% rear dmg reduction. In my opinion, having both stun and rear dmg reduction are worth more than the attack speed. What do you think?
@@sonsoffishes1 Yeah, imo stun is the must. So you would need to trade 18% rear dmg reduction and 10% hero dmg reduction for 24% (?) dps. I think they will die to easily (i like having them super tanky) without rear dmg reduction. BUT, now I need to check this top-until-atk-speed-plus-bottom vs full top
@@sonsoffishes1 I just tested and top line + stun wins with this atk speed + stun + bottom. Will play it a bit in sieges and will see how it performs
@@SuperKitowiec to clarify what you said, top line atk speed + Stun + the rest in bottom is better than Stun + bottom to 10% Hero reduction + the rest in top? Interesting! Yeah I think testing in sieges would be good because the biggest threats are rear attacks from Units and Heroes imo. Thanks for checking this and look forward to anything else you come up with!
@@sonsoffishes1 with
1) full top + stun + rest in bot
2) top till atk speed + stun + Rest in bot
3) bottom without last node + stun + rest in top
1 beats 2
1 beats 3
But as you said, in 1v1 there is not much rear attacks going on. I didn't check 2) Vs 3). And now I'm wondering how 3) Vs 1) would go if I moved reapers behind enemy during fight (I always thought that's not a great idea because enemy will get free hits in the meantime)
Awesome guide, by far the most in depth testing i've seen. I was really looking forward to this video 🙂
Thanks for updating comments
awesome guide dude
Very awesome guide! The in-depth testing that I'm really looking for. Please continue! I like your video so much!
Thank you for kind words ;)
great video it is the most helpful I have been able to find
Great detailed and awesome guide. Thank you
great work
Full mid and the last points to the bottom, what i play from the start... and it good, about the sweeping strike, before the rework, i seen it working only in charge, it good only when you charge from F2 to horde of enemies
Yeah, that was the build before the rework, now flail is just meh
Damn this literally changed my life
great vid.
This is very detailed thank u
Exellent job
A patch came out today that said it fixed a bug on the sweeping strike veterancy node which they said wasn't working. I'm pretty sure you made this recording prior to that patch so is it safe to assume that node works now to increase number of targets on a single swing. Great video though, you always make such intricate and detailed testing. Thank you so much.
Yes, I tested it before posting and it didn't change my mind. It's still not worth the points. In unit training I had 5 targets hit without the node and 6 with it (swords). No effect on flails. Clips are on the discord if you want to take a look ;)
Thus guide is great
nice work 👌
Nice!
Such a great voice!!!
What I clearly saw that with flail reaper can hit multiple targets 3:12 they hit 3 units with flail. So did you take SS node or not when test that time? Flail hit box is just too small for them to do AOE dmg. Also will they get CC imm when using 2 with flail? Also if I use 2 skill and use X V, does it cancel imm cc?
1. They can hit 3 with flail without SS. I'm quite sure they can hit 4 with knockdown (without SS), but I didn't test it properly)
2. They are not immune to cc when using 2 with flail
3. I didn't check x-v with 2. I think it's better to let them do their thing when 2 is active.
do a updated guide please
I'm afraid that iron reapers got powercrept into extinction. They would have to buff them to make them playable. Currently the guide would come down to 'don't use them' :P
I just return to the game and no idea flail era is history now is sword era hahaha
If you get +20% damage increase charging with swords shouldn’t you charge as often as you can? Or still charge in with flail just to knock them down then immediately switch to swords?
1. Flail charge won't knock down without mid line and I don't think it's worth taking
2. I don't charge because this 20% isn't worth spreading your unit (it's much easier to kill single models) and you risk running into pikes and killing yourself due to the speed modifier. You have much more control when you X your reapers closer to enemy and press 2. I use charge when I need to quickly close the distance and even then I often stop them before the impact and press 2
@@SuperKitowiec will you lose tiger step when you do a short charge mid-fight? I sometimes do that with swords to add a burst during meat grind and it seemed to be helpful
@@SuperKitowiec just did a little test, they can still perform dash attack after charge. So tiger step then charge during mid fight to add a burst won’t cancel tiger step.
@@yuchenyang1708 hmmm i don't know about charging mid-fight. It has some windup animation, so in theory you lose a swing in favour of slightly stronger hit. Imo it makes sense after Tiger step wears of and not during it. But I guess I need to see it in game to judge properly ;)
👍👍
Its kinda sad, that u upload a video, say sweeping strike makes no difference, despite beeing one day after patch day and they patched the sweeping strike (hit 1 more enemy). i am afraid u did not test it again and knowing to put a video together take some time, i would be suprised if u would have made in time a retry on sweeping strike. so i strongly reccomend u to try it again since in official patchnotes its marked as a fixed bug:
"Resolved an issue where the Iron Reaper's “Sweeping Strike” Veterancy Point didn't increase the number of targets hit."
greetz
Actually I did test it before posting ;) I mentioned in the video that I don't think this patch will change much and imo that was the case. I got 5 targets hit without sweeping and 6 with. It's too many points spent in middle line which could be better used in top or bottom.
I will put it in the pinned comment to avoid further confusion
@@SuperKitowiec Well, it says u hit more and that u did, so its fine. thing is, what u need to consider. what are u fighting with reapers? its a shock troop, so u fight mostly shield units and not peasants. due to the nature of the unit and enemies, flail may be bad on none shield units, its way more powerfull against shielded units with falil, then with sword. just look the meta. stallwarts, paladins, palace guard, time to time maidens. all strong and most important active blocks where u do nothing with sword. i like that sword is now a viable option against soft targets, but over all the old playstyle still the best with option of sword usage against soft targets. but thats just my 2 cents
I would agree with you if there was no cc immunity on the swords. It's just too strong and you need to be really confident that nothing will cc your reapers before you use flails. But maybe using flails after tiger step expires wouldn't be that bad idea? I guess, there is still a lot of room to experiment with them :)
Too bad they still die in a matter of frames when cav or pikes touch them, 1k+ piercing defence really doesn't matter for most t4/5 piercing damage users.
Cav, yeah, but pikes are not that bad if you don't charge into them
If they had a bigger block like shield-holding unit they would be the tankiest unit in game
the way I use my reapers flails are FAR better, no real comparison
Maybe share some details? ;)
how can I send you a screenshot?
@@DannyDimes311 you can post it on my discord (link is in vid description)
Polak?
Polak
@@SuperKitowiec no ja widzę że w tą gierkę to sami swoi