Should We Boycott Games Workshop?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 жов 2024
- Head to squarespace.co... to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code DANAHOWL
In this video we talk about a common suggestion that shows up in my comments section... should we boycott Games Workshop?
previous video this is a response to: • Was I WRONG about Kill...
My Website: howlcorp.com
Support Me on PATREON: / danahowl
MUSIC:
glaciære - “Island”
steviasphere.b...
glaciære - “Drinking wine and playing gameboy”
steviasphere.b...
Stevia Sphere - "First Taste of Success"
steviasphere.b...
Stevia Sphere - "View From The Moon"
steviasphere.b...
Stevia Sphere - "Elevator 6"
steviasphere.b...
All music used under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0) License
creativecommon...
I want to take a second to correct what you said around the 7:04 mark about the IP being owned by an immoral, publicly traded company where "most of its profits go to their CEO". Not that I'm a fan of *capitalism*, but in this regard the current CEO of Games Workshop is receiving a yearly compensation package of only("only") about 1.8million British pounds, which in the grand scale of CEO salaries is actually on the really low end of the scale. I'm not trying to shill for GW here - the company has a bunch of issues that they could certainly work harder on correcting - but most of their profits going to their CEO is perhaps not one of them.
thanks for the information. tbf i don't know for sure but usually their 'salary' is just one part and a big part are success related incentives looking back at periods of sometimes several years. if they meet or exceed their predicted goals thats when they make the big bucks.
I believe I heard somewhere that half that salary is paid in shares as well
@@harald2101 Right, and that's why I said "compensation package". From the very quick search I did, that 1.8M seems to encompass those bonuses as well. And my point stands that as far as corporations go, Rountree is certainly earning FAR less than most other CEO's.
@@tinyfishhobby3138 yes, that is probably fair to say
Funny story: without capitalism, the number of games, gaming systems, and miniatures would be a fraction (in the single digits) of what is available now. The beauty of capitalism (as opposed to crony-capitalism) is that you can choose not to buy for whatever reason; feel like the company is doing something you don't like? Stop buying.
the irony of this being the first of Dana's videos in my feed in a year is very much proof of the thesis of this video
It's hard to boycott a company that youve stopped buying from regularly.
I just realized that except for the paints and the 1st killteam box, I only bought from ebay for the last 5 years
AHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH
SO FUNNY
I don't even buy citadel paints if I can help it. They decided they weren't willing to provide me with the products I needed so I looked elsewhere.
Yeah I’ve stopped buying from them as of the last few years.
Yep. It's not like Games Workshop will notice someone is "boycotting" them, if that person wasn't giving them money in the first place. The company only cares if an existing, persistent customer stops paying.
Because of the way algorithms work, if I want to see a person paint a mini, their video unfortunately needs to have "my WARHAMMER painting SPACE MARINE with GAMES WORKSHOP???" in the title or it's just not going to be shown to me.
Yeah but you get 295829 shorts of things you never wanted to see shoved down your throat I dont get it.
I have near zero interest in WARHAMMER branded content, and this is still true. Google insists that it's not worth telling me about it existing.
As I commented on a Miscast video a while back, in previous centuries, Copyright was something with a limited shelf life. Artists made something, got a monopoly on it for so many years (like, 7-14 years), and then their art entered the Public Domain. Because it was part of the Commons, a fixture of local culture. Our ancestors would consider it unreasonable to the point of insanity for any one entity - much less a corporation separate from the original artist - to retain a monopoly on a piece of art or anything resembling it for a period in excess of a _century._
Which is what happens when monied interests get to effectively write laws. You get "Life of Creator + 70 years" on Copyright, even when the creator in question has signed away ownership (or had it "legally" stolen from them).
We should not be bound by such unjust laws, nor allow ourselves to leave a company the sole controller of what should, by all rights, be our common good. Warhammer is certainly old enough that, under old Copyright law, it would already be in the Public Domain. Though laws bind us in some ways, it cannot bind us completely. And we should act, in all ways Copyright will allow, as if Warhammer IS ours, collectively.
We cannot buy products with the "Warhammer" label on it from anywhere but Games Workshop. But we don't need the company's permission to enjoy Warhammer any other way, including buying or making our own stand-ins. Nor should we be ashamed of engaging with Warhammer, especially in social media, just because the company is shit. Warhammer _should_ belong to all of us.
You do realise it takes money to design and create Warhammer, right?
@@Shmimbleton You're not wrong, but that investment does pay itself back. And if you sat down and started designing and creating your own stand-ins, that would take money, too.
I'd love to be able to get views on something other than Kill Team regularly. I can't even talk about other GW games without a huge dropoff after the first video of that other game 😢
Ooof yeah I feel your pain!! That’s wild how even other GW stuff can impact views I wouldn’t have expected that!!
@@rogaldorn8519 based
This is the cycle: GW does something dastardly > people get upset and yell a lot about boycotts and 3D brrrring > content creators get upset but realize that their entire income depends on GW > GW releases a huge nostalgia bait box > amnesia in the community > GW does something dastardly > etc
There is no ethical consumption in late stage capitalism.
“Content creators get upset” should be replaced with “content creators realize they can profit off of feeding intro the drama”
Same thing is happening with D&D for the last few years. The content creators that were posting OGL drama videos are now visiting Seattle and pushing the 2024 revision of the game.
@@Xx_deadmeme_xX certainly some do. I think it’s a pretty big generalization to say ALL do. I can see how that’d be a tough position to be in. Feed your family or stop covering a game on UA-cam because the company that makes it sucks. I don’t blame people for making a living. Just pointing out the cycle. Same with MtG circle and generally every other major corporate backed gaming content.
@Xx_deadmeme_xX it's more so that content creators probably honestly want to do things not GW related, but UA-cam will kill their income if they do.
This is such a 3d chess statement. Damn. The truth hurts. 😂
Its hard to boycott a company when the customers have many thousands of dollars invested and they are afraid to invalidate their expensive choices
@@nevertell7629 that's the "sunk cost fallacy." I've got to keep spending money to prove the money I've already spent was spent well.
I'm lucky, my expensive FW tanks have already been invalidated, so it was easy to walk away.
Good point sadly.
we live in a capitalism, sadly. pay your bills first, do a few about gw, then treat yourself to an indie sculpt, or a minis agnostic game, or a nostalgia trip.
if youre fine with me getting up partway through to make a sandwich, or fold a load of laundry, or do some dishes, ill watch 3 ultramarine videos a week if it helps keeps you afloat to do the other ones.
(obviously patreon would be the best way to support you in doing the other kind of video, but unfortunately im in a deeeep hobby debt already with the most expensive mini of all, a toddler)
youre doing amazing, and im glad you have an irl crew to find the fun with ♡
A capitalism lmao
From someone who was brought into the 40k universe from its video games, I am definitely put off by GW's whale-hunting business model, but love the universe.
However, a there are significant amounts of 3d printing resources that not only fit the setting, but allow further customization.
GW's ecosystem is very unhealthy for the game. Until they become consumer friendly, I feel like the proper response is to normalize and encourage using proxy models.
I enjoy the variety of your channel and especially when you dive into the older GW mini's of my childhood (I used to go to painting nights too!). I've used several of your painting tips and video's for reference and even chatted about them with a local painting instructor, so please don't stop making those videos :) . I noticed a similar trend with the gaming community where I live (40K dominates tournaments and games nights) and couldn't find people to play other TT wargames so picked up TOW to try and find people to play Mordheim.
I'll never stop making painting videos!! I've just started doing topic videos like this when I have something to say and I need more time to work on the next painting project before I have a video ready for it :)
@@DanaHowl glad to hear it and you've gotta make money somehow.
I think you should get your current friend group to try an alternate game, such as Grimdark Future, even for a one-off. It doesn't require a new ecosystem of minis, unless you want that. Use all your minis, but try a different rule set that might open doors to other things later on.
If you're just playing with friends you don't need a whole new ecosystem of minis anyway. Just proxy what you want in KT or whatever.
Keep playing with 40k lore if everyone is that invested. Their rule systems tend to suck the fun out of the games, so it might actually re-invigorate the interest from some of the players who have started to drift away. Otherwise it's just a vicious circle of enshittification in the wargaming hobby being co-opted by GW marketing
I'm an "old", and my inspiration to start painting miniatures was an old Dragon Magazine article by someone who used miniatures to do a diorama of a haunted house inspired by the Ray Bradbury story "Homecoming." I first started painting Ral Partha miniatures, and became aware of wargaming through their Chaos Wars rules, but as a broke teenager, at the time I couldn't afford to buy armies. I didn't get into wargaming, and buying large armies of miniatures, until Warhammer 40K 3rd edition, although there was a boom in tabletop gaming at the time, with games like Vor, VOID, Celtos, etc. also showing up.
Fortunately or unfortunately, painting and wargaming were hobbies I enjoyed, but didn't have the time to truly indulge. Nevertheless, I would check back in on 40K from time to time. It was pretty evident that GW was going down a predatory path, between constant rules revisions to push the books and miniatures, pricing miniatures based on game effectiveness rather than production costs, and stamping their label on general hobby products, like brushes, primer, etc., that were available at either lower price points or better quality or both from other sources. I feel lucky to have never been a "one brand" hobbyist, and so somewhat resistant to their practices by dint of life experience.
My boycotting GW is kind of a moot point. I haven't given them any money in many years now. I do have money, which they want, but I'm not particularly susceptible to their blandishments. I will admit to being nostalgic for their older products - I've got 1st edition Space Hulk on my shelf, alongside the Inquisition Trilogy, WHFRP 1st edition, and even the original Rogue Trader rules; but not nostalgic enough to overcome my disdain for their predatory business practices. What I do, actively, is discourage people in my circle from getting involved with Games Workshop. I mentor a gaming club at the local college, and I evangelize the tabletop gaming and miniature painting hobbies, but I generally focus on 'alternative' suppliers and games from independent and small press publishers. After all, friends don't let friends do Games Workshop.
That said, I do appreciate the bind that you and other UA-cam painting and gaming influencers face. The majority of your traffic likely comes from GW enthusiasts who do, earnestly, want to become better or faster painters or more skilled gamers. You might consider, in your personal gaming experience, looking at One Page Rules, which is basically a miniature-agnostic system that is fairly rules-light and designed to "accommodate" existing GW miniatures. It could be easier to ween people off the GW rules system if you offer an alternative they can use the same miniatures for. From there, you could expand to more alternatives.
Anyway, I love your work, and I wish you the best of luck!
I've been into Warhammer 40K since 1990, I had a break between 2004 and 2023, I was tired of their increase in prices and constantly changing rules. I didn't boycott them, just looked elsewhere for 19 years, as in backing CMON kickstarters. I got back into 40K in 2023, pretty much limited to a few Orks, Space Marines, Knights and Mechanicus, and updating my old armies. I do enjoy Kill Team, collecting the big box sets, and painting them, gives me some variety in models, without committing to a massive army.
I have a massive collection of CMON games and models, and I have been supporting One Page Rules and collecting there STL's. I think there is still a place for Games Workshop, but not buying into their FOMO and spending too much.
If you're not planning to get into the Official Tournament circuit, then going third party for your minis shouldn't be that big of an issue. If you can't play a game without your friends harping on "not official models", then you may need a new friend group to play with. Like Uncle Adam (Tabletop Minions) says, "Any minis game in minis agnostic if you try hard and believe in yourself."
TBH - most of the bigger Tournament circuits allow alternat printed models. Hell even GW do (if you designed them yourself)... Unless you are playing at Warhammer world... or are good enough to be playing at world champs, its a non issue. And if you are playing at the level - spend some money and get the actual models ffs.
@@kuragh What if your competing (playing toy soldiers) in the Olympics .... oh wait, I don't think playing toy soldiers is in the Olympics. "are *good* *enough* to be playing at world champs" very funny!
I'm not boycotting GW - it's GW who has been boycotting my wallet for years, with their crazy prices
Boycotts work! Don't mistake me, we should not surrender our power to the dollar. But especially in a luxury industry, boycotts work. And people should really consider to what extent they want to keep supporting GW.
One of the major reasons I watch Dana is because of her focus on non-GW stuff.
And now I am sad to hear that the non-GW videos get so little attention. I am also intrigued by your take on GW and other minigame companies.
"And now I am sad to hear that the non-GW videos get so little attention." I feel this sort of creates a self fulfilling cycle. Less videos get made about non-GW games so less people get interested in those games which then leads to less people being interested in the videos.
Obviously it's rough for content creators because like... ya gotta pay the bills. But it's a bummer all the same because I'd love to see more people talking more often about the multitude of great games not run by a company that actively despises it's customer base.
Historically, boycotts don't work, unless they are organised around a specific organisation or union. Not saying you shouldn't it's up to you what you do with your money.
@@TheVardek13 Basically ^This. You can't simply shout "Boycott!" into the ether, and expect anyone to follow it. Boycotts must be organized and motivated in order to work.
@@TheVardek13 - Yes, boycotts are hard, and there are lots of reasons why we wouldn't expect a GW boycott to be effective. However, they're not the only option, and GW have shown some degree of flexibility in response to pressure from the community - e.g. recently over rules for Deathwatch - and so it might be worth thinking about how best to organise and direct that potential pressure, and what might realistically be achievable. So, while something like not increasing prices for a year is probably very unlikely to be a request that GW would entertain, a well-organised campaign around something like rules access, or beta-testing of rules, etc, might have more chance of making headway.
I'm waiting for a 10 min Dana's video consisting only of one word "Squerespace", read quite slowly. That'd be a dream😂
Excited to see your ork army!! Deffkilla looking great
ahahah thank you!!! its such a fun model!
Thank you for that whimsical chomp at the mic there at the end. It gave me a laugh at work and nothing is fun at work these days.
So close to 100k! Congrats!
Solution: make terrain for and play Deth Wizards with GWE undead models. That works. Let's check how many views you get with that.
As a consumer of DnD youtube, and also some minipainting stuff, I hate how the algorithm forces creators to cater to the larger properties like that. I try to bump creators who I see making an effort to uplift smaller projects, but I recognize that you've got to pay your bills too.
Thanks for talking about this topic, and for anyone reading the comments remember that you do have a voice here! Support the content you want to see more of!
The honesty and transparency of this video is refreshing. As a content creator, so much of what you have to do is chase the “meta” to ensure your output remains lucrative. It’s a catch 22. I think you do a terrific job balancing the indie titles with GW. There’s still a lot to love that GW offers, but the anti consumer behavior is hard to stomach. Either way, the people in the middle (in this case, content creators) have to manage the optics of the hobby when they shouldn’t be responsible for that.
Thanks Jamie!! I do my best to keep it all in balance while still keeping the lights on around here haha
My sentiment exactly - I'm wholeheartily embrace the GW franchises, but really have reduced the amount of newly produced plastic (nearing a sum of zero pr year) I buy from GW, simply because I love the settings, but not how the whole business is handled. Rejoice 3d printing and used book market!
Thank you for this vid! I've recently been rethinking my relationship to the hobby and this perspective certainly helps. I want to go full indie with games, minis, etc, but it's important to recognize folks are just finding their fun in something accessible and popular... Then once they're in we can slowly pull them into the weird and wild 😈
I already am for years now
We shouldn't be angry at the CEO. Just the Shareholders. The CEO gave all of the employees a total 18 million dollars in bonuses. The Shareholders got pissy. Don't stop buying entirely, just stop buying things from GW directly.
Correction on the KT App, It only includes the LITE rules, not the full rules, so still need the core rulebook
I came so close to purchasing the new Tomb Kings box, and I am glad I choked on the $250+ price tag!
Short answer: yes we should, but when GW throws in the line, we bite because we’re too consumed by consumerism to stop.
In my line of work we notice a huge difference between what the customer says, and what they do (and we have data on everything they do while using our products (apps)). Even sitting down with them in the same room while navigating our products and talking with us they claim one thing while doing another thing. People don't actually always know what they want, and they are often not good at pointing the finger at what is working and what is not working. My thesis is that the single most important success factor for Warhammer is the lore. People claim they hate the rules and that there are better games out there with better rules, but the majority don't care about the rules (even if they would say so). Warhammer is like a living organism. The lore and the setting talks to us and captures our interest, more than any set of rules will ever do. Every time a competitor enters the market they try to win people over with better rules and better prices. I haven't found any competitor that is able to communicate lore the way GW does. GW actually have amazing writers. When I pick up other products and try to get into the fluff of the game I get shocked how bad is written and overall poor presentation (not that I'm an author my self, but you don't have to be a good writer to appreciate good writing).
Some games come close when it comes to depth of lore and support. I mean, none have the endless dollars GW have, but Battletech and Heavy Gear both have extensive lore support.
Honestly that price hike on kill team really killed the new edition for me. I was looking forward to getting those Night Lords minis. Oh well if I cant keep it at a 50 dollar price limit it isn't worth it.
The nice thing is a lot of the teams can be kitbashed or proxied, there’s no way we should pay these prices for the individual teams! I’m hoping to do a video on the easiest teams to kitbash at some point
@@DanaHowl This would be a great video and an important point to make as people seem to forget this. If you're playing with friends you don't need to buy any of the new minis to play the games - to believe otherwise is falling for the marketing. You don't even need to 3d print. It's nice to have the official minis, but at the end of the day it's just a cosmetic upgrade. And I'd much rather play against a unique painted and kitbashed Kill Team than the grey ones I normally see across from me, lol. My all-metal oldhammer Blades of Khaine team works just as well as any new minis in the game.
Obviously the exception is tournament play (or playing at WH stores I guess), but if you're that deep down the competitive KT rabbit hole then buying 1 new pricey KT every year or two isn't the worst, and up until that point you can play/practice with whatever.
I recently put everything on pallets and moved continent. I haven't gone through all my boxes yet, but was very upset to see you somehow managed to get your hands on one 2:34. After my initial shock, closer inspection revealed the paint set was not the '94 edition, so it turns out it was not my box after all, phew!
I say this all the time: I want to love Warhammer, but GW makes it so hard.
I agree with many other commenters: what GW needs, is meaningful competition.
This. A thousand times this.
HIPS is such an amazing material for minis. But it's brutally expensive to enter the industry. I think that is why the meaningful competition hasn't emerged.
If the issue you're protesting is product quality I wouldn't call it a boycott, more just... not wanting the product. If you have some strong moral opposition to a product you would otherwise have wanted, that's a boycott. But I don't think any of the criticism levelled at GW fits that. I guess they... could pay more, apparently? They don't pull any funny business with dodgy contracts as far as I'm aware, they just offer less and people agree. Not exactly hoovering up the desperate and penniless to chain to a desk in a dank basement.
Exactly, GW business crap made me fall out of love with the game. I don't boycott. It's more of a sad sigh and moving on. That being said, there are so many good games.
People love to scream about GW being "anti consumer", but clearly TONS of fans out there still purchase plenty of Warhammer product quite regularly, otherwise Games Workshop wouldn't currently be in the top spot they're arguably in right now. It's like calling Apple anti consumer, and yet Apple still sells millions of iPhones to people every year, year after year.
@@tinyfishhobby3138 That's not what anti-consumer means. The incentive to be anti-consumer is higher when you have tons of fans purchasing your product year after year. You are incentivised to erode their rights as a consumer in the pursuit of extracting more money from them, and the more of them you have as a captive (self captivated or otherwise) market, the more effective it is.
I’ve not had a vid of yours on my for you page in months. Funny how this one appeared 😅
The big thing here is... you are allowed to hate the company but love the hobby.
As I said on your last video, games workshop do not own the hobby. They sorely wish they could and imo, even resent that they can't. But try as they might to make the hobby into an exclusive thing... it isn't. The customer has power, they can paint what they want, how they want, when they want. This is something everyone needs to remember.
Boycotting as realistic as you want to make it... I haven't bought a thing for Old World, because I know I don't need to. Not only did i have my undead to begin with, but the rules for them were free to begin with. Gw only maintains a monopoly so long as people buy into that monopoly.
DnD is no longer the go to roleplay choice... hasn't been for a long time now, there's a myriad of choice and the list is too long to even know where to begin. Vampire the Masquerade and Cyberpunk being two exceptionally long-running series.
Alternatives exist and don't believe gw when they say there isn't any... and yes, i do refer to 3d printing as well here.
That chicken dry brush technique is next level
... I've had one of those Chaos Warrior Halberdiers boxes in my pile of shame since the mid-90s. and they're not the oldest models in there.
People buy Games Workshop models because they make plastic models on par with Tamiya and Bandai while every other games company is struggling to catch up to where GW was a decade ago.
Naw people buy gw because they're pay pigs and buy something based on wether or not they have an attachment to the brand regardless of quality
People keep saying this, but their models are not really any better than their competition. You just like them more.
They have a tendency to be over-detailed, often with little to no visual hierarchy, being designed for supporting painting techniques which are good for selling their particular paint lines to players who don't know better about other paint lines of higher quality, more cost effective paints.
Nothing wrong with liking their models more, but we need to stop pretending like their models are actually better - the other companies caught up more than a decade ago.
@@NathanaelRouillard Name an example of a smaller company who's plastic models are on par with GW, I just want to have a look. Not really argue about, I'm mostly curious. Having done plastic miniature/military stuff for 30 years, I'm just curious who's knocking on GWs door with similar plastic models.
My favorite Dana Howl videos are about watching you paint and hearing you discuss painting. If it is a GW mini or something else, I do not care. If it is about GW lore and not painting, I might skip it. However, I do have a soft spot in my heart for Nurgles. I might want to get that checked out.
That ork army looked amazing, hoping to see a video on it soon!
My gaming group started with a non GW game, Star Wars Armada. That was eight years ago, and we have never played or bought into a GW game and most likely never will. Mythic Americas is my current game, working on a cyberpunk crew for Reality's Edge, and getting in some solo games of Bushido Risen Sun to teach them.
No need to justify yourself Dana. As always you’re doing a great job for the hobby. As you mentioned, things one can do to boycott GW at playing older editions of the game and buying used from eBay. My gaming group and I recently are discussing a return to 2nd edition 40k, even talking about creating rule conversion s to shift over newer models into the old system. So I guess you are right, there still are plenty of opportunities for talking about Warhammer without talking about GW
I think at least 50% of people that currently purchase warhammer products need to boycott anything produced by GW within the last three years and only buy second-hand anything older than 3 years until GW changes their practices.
Do this for a single fiscal year, and let's see how GW reacts.
The point around the 8 minute mark is so important. I *love* Warhammer Fantasy. It's like my greatest passion. I even wrote a bunch of my own supplements for my gaming group. In 2015 I was annoyed with them ceasing to support it, but after a bit of futile anger I sort of said "Okay then. Your version of the Old Wolrd blew up. Mine didn't. Let's agree to disagree."
I never stopped playing WFB and as my 3D-printed Chaos Dwarf army will tell you, you don't need any one company's permission to do that. You can love a lore and setting without loving the provider. I haven't boycotted GW, but my question always becomes: "is GW the cheapest/best/only way to get the models I want?" If the answer is yes, fine. I love the unicorn-riding prophetess model. I didn't mind paying them for it because it wasn't cheaper elsewhere and it was that specific sculpt I wanted. Conversely, it would be madness to pay them £37 or whatever for a Death Korps squad which will have endless fiddling bits when a 3D printed Stationforge Grim Guard squad has the same aesthetics and quality, is easier to prep for painting and costs half the price. I don't really hold a grudge against them. They are what they are. I have found that the healthiest thing to do is make my relationship with them as transactional and theirs is with me. I'll buy from them if they're making the best offer and if I feel like it.
It's a feedback loop. The algorithm favors GW videos, so creators make more GW videos, leading to the algorithm favoring GW videos even more. It results in a virtual monopoly and turns UA-cam into a grimdark monoculture. Great for shareholders, but stifling to the hobby overall.
While this video is for the most part reasonable it is also somewhat whataboutist. Nobody is saying to consume uncritically from indie creator, on the other hand it is hard to find any company in the miniature wargame business as bad as GW. More importantly, I never found another game that is as expensive as warhammer or another GW's game. Yes you can find purchases+ as expensive as GW's "entry level" but they tend to be made for veterans. Or to accommodate more than one player for the price of a GW's single player entré.
I want also to point out that a lot of player tend to be particularly invested in warhammer for the impressive amount of time and effort that it takes to get into those games. Most other games easier to pick up and to put down, so they have to stand on their own merits.
Just to be clear I'm not against the general message of the video, but rather on the tone and implication that they are all bad. Which at least in this space is misleading. Regardless the product the price is always as high as you can bear and the quality as low as you can sopport. And in both cases is GW that keep pushing the envelop.
Perhaps the question behind the question: how can content creators get out from under the youtube algorithm rock? No one seems to like the total lack of agency they have with this relationship.
This simple answer would be more big names moving to alternative platforms which would actually give yt some competition
@@Nugundamsisntforshow I agree, but I don't know that they would be a good fit for the other platforms I know of, so it's a bit of a bind.
A suggestion is that I too have a fair bit of GW 40k miniatures and have not liked their rules much: I use GW models but use Stargrave rules as a good skirmish game. This is my "compromise", I hope something similar works for you.
Being a fanatic of something its important to have a level head and be critical of it for your sake as well as the health of the subject. I have had my belief since my interests aligned, and I have been sending my message since day 1, Ill change my name when we get victory, but will be engaging my way either way
Funny how people complain about GW, and some people play some of the smaller games, but a Marvel or Star Wars IP game? Those aren't done by a small independent company, and we've seen what happens to Star Wars games life span.
It is incredibly hard getting people into games and systems that are outside of their comfort zone or area of interest. I have the privilege of being able to throw some extra cash around to basically cover the monetary buy in aspect of getting into a new gaming system but I still haven't been able to get any of my friends group into anything outside of GW games.
First time I remember a "boycott" was 2006 when GW stopped the production of the fan movie "Damnatus". Yet here we are: 18 years and many so called boycotts later nothing changed. I´m done with GW and focused on Battletech a long time ago but let's face it: People will never overcome their addiction for plastic crack.
I buy proxy miniatures from the IP. Ironic to that sentence, I got tired of how fragile/brittle GW minis are compared to most of the others I own.
This has to be a joke right? What exactly are you doing to minis to claim they are "brittle"? Are you only buying finecast?
@@Grieva-SeeD- The material is way more brittle than Corvus Belli metal minis, so they may not be talking only about plastics. It's also more fragile than the sio-cast resins that many competitors use for certain miniatures. They also have a lot of thin/bladed weapons that are absolutely prone to breaking if you're not careful enough (and these are game pieces after all: a drop from the table is a common risk) and even if they don't break, the're still a good chance of bending the plastic. There's only so many times you can bend that plastic without it weakening and breaking.
So no, it doesn't have to be a joke.
@@NathanaelRouillard I've been painting and playing GW minis for a very long time and had only maybe 2 breaks of a spear shaft due to carelessness, your mileage may vary though. SioCast is still nowhere near as viable as HIPS and is only really provided by a few select companies and last I read was not cheap as it requires specialist material, technicians, and tools. I was flabbergasted at OPs take on GW having brittle minis as I think they strike a good balance of detail and strength. Just my take though
@Grieva-SeeD- It's not a joke. I collect Cmon Song of Ice and Fire these days. The comparison between the two is night and day, and that's just their plastics. They use reinforced plastics for the weapons, so you rarely get a broken spear tip or sword. The same cannot be said for GW with designs like the Nighthaunt and Skeletons.
If all you're collecting is chunky space marines, you'll never notice it. But when you want finer detail minis, you realise their plastic is trash.
Some decades ago we just didn't buy what we didn't like.
Boycotts don't work.... but my 3d printer works perfect
I mean, boycotts obviously would work, but talking about one is not the same as actually starting and commiting to a boycott with a significant amount of consumers.
until too many people use them and end up causing the IP of a company to not be profitable and then lose development. Liked wh fantasy battles? that went bye bye because people started to buy knock offs/recasts to point it GW didn't turn a profit lol. There were some other reasons too but that's the biggest one.
@@nameisbad There is far more to 3D printing than just warhammer knockoffs... With 3D printing being a thing now and the thousands of models to choose from available online, GW don't even make the best models anymore. I've mostly been painting models that have nothing to do with Warhammer and are not trying to imitate Warhammer and if GW (a multi-billion dollar corporation) get knocked down a peg, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it.
People need to learn how to separate their hobby from the output of one specific company. Do you like miniature painting/tabletop games or do you just like Warhammer? If your answer is the former then there is far more out there than just whatever GW makes...
My local stores don't even carry budlight anymore
Agree! Also miniature agnostic games that can use your pre-existing miniatures is another way to go.
The Roman Empire needed centuries to fall, and we still live among its ashes. GW is the Roman Empire of tabletop wargames, let's admit it. We still love it for what it used to be, most of us grew up inside its dark, grim universe and there will always be a place for it inside us, boycott or not. You never forget your first love.
But you might realise your first love never loved you, only your pocket money.
@@Mikey__R Might be, but don't all companies need our money after all? None of them are in the biz just for the passion. The difference is how they treat us as customers, there was a time when GW really seemed to care about fun, community and the hobby itself (as well as profits of course, but we didn't see this as their main motto back then). Or at least this is how i perceive it.
Ironic it's falling for the same reasons
I'll be honest, I'm not interested in non GW products and it's hard to fake interest in these products.
If you can only be interested in a single brand then you are entirely steeped in the groupthink.
@@RecklessFables Nope, I'm just interested what I'm interested in, I can't force myself to be interested in something I'm not. Equally, group think is agreeing with everyone on here even if it means doing something I'd rather not do.
I play TT, I'm not a highly motivated protester.
I feel you there, GW may be a scummy company but I have no other interest in painting minis that aren't WH related. I've gone to 3D printing/ripping all of my models from GW because that's what I enjoy without giving them cash.
@@RecklessFables dragging someone because they are honest about their preference in a game shows that you're the pretentious groupthink rep. Like someone who says that another person isn't "true" punk because they don't have a purple mohawk. It's a hobby, and subjective. GW is no different than any other corporation, good and bad, get over it or leave people alone at the least for what they spend their free time doing.
I appreciate the honesty, but I don’t understand it. Their models are pretty good, if overpriced and way over designed. Their lore and world are fun, but you aren’t limited to their models or game for that. Their actual game is pretty abysmal when compared to many other games on the market.
Not to say you shouldn’t do what you find fun. If you’ve tried out other stuff and don’t enjoy it, more power to you.
I’ve put a halt on GW products of late, which is a pity as I’m halfway through a Skaven army. I have also got Conquests Last Arguments of Kings / First blood. I love Wyrds Malifaux minis but no one plays near me. So I’ve gone back to Flames of War & just started a Team Yankee army. Also interested in Bolt Action & BattleTech. I will always be interested in GW games but will definitely cut down .
Small caveat, most of the profits don't go to the CEO but go into dividends paid out to investment firms and ETFs
Then you have people like me, someone who appreciates and likes your content but who also has to be "in the mood" to watch it. Sometimes I just wanna watch a painting video and sometimes I don't - it could be a couple of weeks before I get back into it and start binging channels like yours and Goobertown and Ninjon, etc... But, if I don't click on those videos *immediately* the algorithm stops showing them in my feed!
I have to specifically remember to come back and find you! Stupid algorithm, I wanna watch Dana's stuff - I'm just not in the right headspace for it right now! Ugh...
Anyway, thanks for what you do - I enjoy the laid back painting and discussions.
I kind of done so last... 24 years? I think I last time bought something from GW or Citadel in 1999? To be honest, GW (their endless greed) was reason why I stopped miniature hobby back then, while indies were reason why I restarted it few years ago.
--
But I have small problem. I am (more or less) interested miniature hobby, tabletop games, etc. But always when I watch videos from those topics, UA-cam start flooding suggestions for GW or WotC games. And I am not really interested about them. So, then youtube stops recommending anything from those topics. Because algorithm does not really understand things... I really aren't interested exactly this or that game, but generally (and more often more about painting and scenery building, etc). But that also often make searching those topics really hard. What search word to use, if I want ...let's say, find videos of tabletop gaming? If I know or want search specific game, that is not so horribly hard to find, but if I do not know name, or do not want name?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
Its a similar position a lot of Blizzard Activision creators had to contend with when all that came to the forefront
I run the Irregular Magazine channel, its still fairly small but because I do that as a side hobby/project as I have a full time job I don't need to chase the GW dollar. This allows me to be more free with the content I make. So I produce content around smaller scales and smaller games.
I watch your videos for your content not because it's a specific game, but I understand the algorithm is gonna be stronger for 40k searches than anything else, so YT gonna YT and you deserve to get that money Dana.
I've not bought anything GW since being totally burnt out on it in the early 00s when I was playing in tournaments. Got done with one I did well in and realized I wasn't having fun, more relief that it was over. I've been thinking about dabbling in wargaming again, but GW prices haven't gotten better, so I'm using some of my old models and OPR, also been playing a lot of Battletech Alpha Strike.
Do what you gotta do Dana!
Content creators often tailor content to encourage views (as you pointed out). Also, many creators encourage people to join their patreon because they’ll have more influence on what subjects the channel covers. Patreons = shareholders. People who provide capital(money) to maintain the channel’s operation. It’s really just a matter of scale.
Ever since I got into the hobby almost 25 years ago, I've known that I can't afford to buy everything from GW that strikes my fancy. That's why I'm also picky about what to buy from them, mostly going for a balance between quantity and quality, trying to find something with the most possible use. Rather than buy an expensive single model, I'd usually buy a box with lots of plastic sprues, so that I could kitbash and convert my own proxies. For the same reason I freely mix bits from different companies, as well as toys, anything that can be used. That's why GW's product has mostly functioned as inspiration for creativity in my case, when I try to get close enough to recreate what they have for sale. It's more challenging and more fun most of the time.
Given how bad their rules usually are, if your friend group is uninterested in trying other games (which are often free, since you can use your existing minis), then you have a boring friend group (sad to say).
its not that so much, i have a 3 other friend group, and each of us has spent multiple thousands of dollars on armies through the years. none of us want to have to start over. we tried x-wing and it got cancelled and that leaves a bad taste in trying other games unfortunately
@@gimmetheprize3271 You don't need new minis to play any one of the countless of the other miniature agnostic wargames. You tried one game with it's own line of minis, and because of that you're not willing to try other games that you already have the minis for?
I note; I specifically said you don't need to start over. Just don't use GW's rules, since they're usually the worst thing about the game. If you can't handle trying a better, easier to use, easier to learn rule system to play with the same armies in the same setting, then you are a boring person to play with. It seems that you are in need of friends who are less boring and stagnant!
Part of Dana's Infinity arc? haha There are so many good games out there. I just picked up a mech one called Gamma Wolves
Yeah I pretty much only play Legions Imperialis at this point...but I still watch your channel pretty regularly. You do you
Lovely video as always. Congrats on having a good group, miniatures are better when you're rolling dice with friends.
Been looking into Mantic Games Firefight. Justnnot sure if any of my local shops will have games for it.
Run the games you want to play.
A great video Dayna, I agree in whole with your points about being critical of both GWs malpractice but still liking the games and lore. Since the fan art crack down in 2021 from GWs legal team I've engaged in financial boycott of GW. I haven't bought from GW since, however friends and family have got me minis as gifts which I accept wholeheartedly as I love the minis and the games. If I want a new GW mini I try buy it second hand, I play AoS 3rd ed with my friends, I paint the minis, I stay up to date with GWs news.
I saw the title, yelled "YES!" and started making some picket signs .. ok should probably actually watch the video now
Other than the odd pot of paint, I stopped buying GW products when they killed WHFB. Which in a weird way was a good thing, because I discovered better games.
I got my (as yet unpainted) GW army a few years back and while I will keep supporting the computer games they've licensed out I have little interest in buying their stuff due to high prices and lack of support for factions I find all that interesting. In many ways I think a lot of us are already in boycott mode without the formal declaration.
Yeah I'm finding it really hard to commit to a new army right now with all these terrible things happening which is such a shame cos I've been looking forward to starting something else for a while now. I just can't bring myself to give money to the company that keeps screwing it's player base over.
On a side note: This is gonna sound really simpy but whatever. You have really really pretty eyes.
You do you.
There's no need to justify it, but I'm glad you're aware of it. Most people are not open enough to admit how things are.
I keep trying but we can't get enough people to join us
I have enough Space Marines. I'm considering jumping to OPR. And adding IG using Atlantic Minis.
I'm not "boycotting" it, I've simply switched to OPR because it's a better system with a better business model.
Switching to painting miniatures I care about instead of just game pieces has made me so much happier.
To me GW has made seval serious mistakes.
1. They are a game company for 40 years (I think?) and their game Warhammer 40k is in its 10th edition. You would think that a gaming company would be able to create a game that is well rounded and fun to play by that time. But the game isnt. Compared to many many other wargames it really isnt at all. And thats embarassing
2. They are milking the money cow way too much. I dropped out in 2015 where I already found their prices ridiculous, but now? Man thats just plain theft.
3. They werent even able to synchronize their release scedule properly with Space Marine 2. When SM2 came out there should have been an instant simultaneous release of a GW set fitting to Titus adventure to catch people who are interested. But there isnt. GW still hasnt put their head around how good marketing works and thats shocking. They fail time and time again to synchronise their releases with the hype created by their media and games.
4. The change to primaris, the reoccurance of primarchs and the piece by piece change of set lore really sits bad with me and I have a bad feeling on where it goes in the future.
In the end GW jsut inst a company led by people who are dedicated to the things they created. they are a company that wants to maximise profits for their shareholders. And a company like that can never be fully trusted to respect their own IP.
I love games workshop but also find their pricing utterly ludicrous, especially in Australia. I think they banned me from their channel when I complained about the Australian pricing of Skaventide
I either buy alternative proxy models or most commonly Recast Warhammer models.
Buying one box of toy soldiers SHOULDNT cost the same as a phone bill and groceries.
Sounds like a circular argument. Games Workshop has such a high market share and generates such a high reach that I, as a content creator, can't do without it (as long as I earn my money with it). And the constant reporting by content creators increases Games Workshop's market share, awareness and reach. Pretty clever, if you ask me. 🙂
This is not meant as negative feedback btw. You are great and you are doing well imho.
I've been boycotting GW for years due to their predatory behavior and non-appreciation of fans.
I feel your pain. I'm playing GW games because that's where the players are. It's hard enough to find players who aren't 40K players.
✨🌈3D Printing🌈✨
Honestly, my main draw to the hobby has always been painting and the models I've been most excited about lately have been by independent creators on myminifactory and Patreon. I've found myself spending more time painting larger scale figures and enjoying them as display pieces rather than feeling crappy about not finishing an army that I'll probably never play with anyway. I grew up on Warhammer and I still love it, but there's so much more to the hobby than Warhammer or struggling to find an inferior 'warhammer alternative'.
I still buy GW models but these days I probably only buy 2 or 3 models from them per year (at most) when they release something that really grabs me and looks like it will be a fun painting project that I can sink time into. I've bought enough warhammer over the past 25 years to keep me busy for the next 25 lol. In fact, when it comes to Warhammer the only projects I've worked on this year have been for Golden Demon. Warhammer has become a small part of a bigger hobby for me and I'm no longer fooling myself into thinking that I need to be into actually playing tabletop games which I just have no interest in. I like painting and I'll paint whatever I think looks cool.
People should at least see what exists, whether they are angry at GW or now. I go to conventions and play demos a lot. There is so much to love out there.
Thb, Thats one of the reasons why I'm subscribed. I think you have the right balance between Games Workshop and other systems.
My group has been having a blast with Spearhead. It's a great way to dip your toe into AoS 4!
We all want games workshop to succeed. we all want them to be better. We're like parents to the child or friends to our besties. We have to get them in the right mindset the right place to make good decisions. If videos about games workshop doing bad things get you a lot of views you should do that until games workshop changes their ways. And then we can talk about all the good things they've done like we've done in the past whenever they hit it big.
I have a fair share of alternative minis (love the sculpts for Cyberpunk in particular), there's something about GW minis that keep pulling me back in.
GW is a publicly traded company, they can never reduce prices because numbers always have to go up. Some companies do the sneaky "up the prices, then give a sale to make it look cheaper when it hardly is" or be like Nintendo and GW and simply never have any sales. Ironically GW has already implemented the one cost reduction action they could have taken, which is reduce the game's size so you need fewer models and units. But this won't work again.
If everyone boycotted GW they would just sell to someone bigger. Things might probably be better for a while and then the same practices happen. This is just the norm when companies get too big. Nothing matters but percentages going up.
I think "should we Boycott GW" is a bit too broad of a question. Personally I think we, as consumers, should vote with our wallets more. Sure, most people have thousands of dollars sunk into various GW stuff, but that's also due in large part to how predatory GW has become with their pricing and anti-consumer behavior. If GW was just way more player friendly like not locking rules behind paywalls, being more friendly towards 3d printers/proxies and creating a welcoming environment then more people would want and be able to get into the hobby. If we focused on supporting companies that did have business practices that were positive towards us (and if you look around there are actually quite a few companies that are leaning into this) then GW would be forced to adapt in order to stay relevant. It really is the sunk cost fallacy on a community wide scale at this point.
Look at the MTG community. More and more over recent years people have been ok with proxying because of how bad MTG has become from a player standpoint regarding investment (not that I agree with people treating it like a financial investment, but that's a different problem) and other tcgs have also surged in recent years. Flesh and Blood, even Lorcana the disney tcg is having tournaments in my local area. Part of what makes these smaller games less attractive for most is the lack of ability to find players. But if we start being more vocal about "hey I really like this game because of X Y and Z" then more people will go "hey, I like games that have that" and play these other games. You're allowed to try and enjoy other games.
You can even see this trend in the ttrpg community. D&D 5e, while still popular, has seen massive parts of it's community just play other games. Spurred on by the OGL fiasco, more people have just started playing other things. I have like 8 systems other systems I've tried as a player or run.
For myself… I’m gonna keep playing Old World. But I think I won’t get anymore GW models. Highland minis “Gallia” models fit the theme of my army AND they’re much easier to paint for a newb like me
I’ve cut back on how much GW stuff I buy. I was happy to resist the new Kill Team, but I’m looking forward to the new Underworlds. Just play whatever you want and spend your money the way you want to.