The One Problem Ruining Superhero Movie Endings
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- Опубліковано 16 гру 2021
- With the boom in Superhero movies over the last 15 years, one thing has become a major issue. Studios don't know how to close a Superhero movie with a decent third act. Most Marvel and DC movies have to end with the character still able to come back for more installments. It's the nature of Comic Book stories. Though none have had a more disastrous third act than Wonder Woman. The first Wonder Woman had a incredibly strong first and second act following Diana's fish out of water story. All for it to come crumbling down when Wonder Woman is face to face with Ares.
#WonderWoman #Superhero #Nerdstalgic
Written by Dave Baker
Edited by Brian Nappi - Розваги
“When’s the last time a super hero movie had a third act that worked?”
SPIDERVERSE!!!!!!
Hell yes
And about 30 others since 2004
To be fair Spiderverse is the best super hero film of the 2010’s and one of the best of all time. No surprise here.
Civil War, kind of. Had its big CG brawl in the 2nd act, then ended with a personal battle in the 3rd. Although it ended Cap's trilogy as unresolved as the ending of Superman Animated. The price of having a cinematic universe, I suppose.
No way home too
The issue is when a third act doesn't actually resolve the "conflict", it's just a fight.
Diana's "conflict" was figuring out how the human world works. Her final fight was just a fight. Same issue with the sequel.
Actually, that’s not true. There was a fight in the 3rd act of 84, but that wasn’t the climax
SPOILER for Spider-Man no way home
In the final fight against the green goblin it isn’t just a fight it’s Peter learning to not let hatred consume him and not kill the green goblin because he was going to and then Toby’s Spider-Man stepped in and blocked him it was a perfect final fight and it perfectly incapsulated Spider-Man’s moral values as a character
@@ghostyoda5327 spoiler
It also allowed Peter 2 to prevent Norman’s death instead of allowing it like he did originally. I love how No Way Home gave an opportunity for the first 2 Spider-Men to fix their previous mistakes
@@ghostyoda5327 I literally just watched No Way Home today and I don't think that the moral of the story was "hate is bad" but it was that actions have consequences and when you see something wrong in the world and you are able to do something about it, you should. *Helping people when you have the ability to do so,* even when you don't want to or others tell you not to, is the theme.
This could be helping others with mental illness, giving money to people who need it, or just being kind to someone. And yeah, that's portrayed perfectly in the final fight scene I agree.
@@brandondavidson4085 I wasn’t trying to say the moratorium the story I was just saying that it perfectly showed Spider-Man’s character I didn’t mean to word it that way
Spiderman 2 really nailed the third act. It wasn't a brawl between Doc Ock and Peter, it was Peter finally learning from all of his struggles to save Doc's character, enabling him to redeem himself from being a monster.
Never realised there’s not a big fight in that film
Did he save him? I don’t remember because in the no way home, he’s apparently dead already
@@lucapeyrefitte6899 Spiderman didn't save Doc physical, but morally.
Ock told Peter to leave so he can destroy the portal, by collapsing it in the ocean.
Therefore sacrificing himself for the greater good.
@@SapphireSolstice67 There’s the train scene. That’s a big fight.
@@Artersa Thats the end of act 2 fight
Shazam. The suicide squad. Spiderverse. Their third acts hold on to the themes - family, these villains showing that everyone has purpose & value and taking a leap of faith / anyone can be Spider-Man.
Sorry to be that bitch but it's *Their
Am I the only one who hated Shazam’s 3rd act. Thematically it works well but it went for way too long, the jokes were more annoying than anything in the MCU and the fight choreography was so bad. I’ll give it credit though for being a 3rd act that was good on paper, just bad in execution
Tbh TSS third act has some problems
Spiderman no way home also does this really well through Small dialogue and BIG Action, of course no spoilers though
@@joeyjerry1586 Would you say you'd prefer scenes to have their own individual tones, some dramatic and other comedic? This is what I'm understanding from those who hate "quips" in their action movies (regardless if they're funny or not). I don't mind tonal whiplash because I love _RoboCop._
Logan is the one that comes to mind on having a full third act. As its character and theme of flow and match completely give Logan a fully realized ending that feels hole and earned.
Winter Soldier had a great third act, there is this window dressing of this huge cgi battle with Cap saving the day, but the core of the third act was him trying to save his friend. The movie has some second act issues, but the third act is top notch.
Second act issues? You mean when Arnim Zola gives us arguably the greatest info-dump scene in history or when a climactic fight precedes a stunning revelation that shakes Steve to the core?
@@jakubrejak1114 it really was a sick info dump now that I look back at it
@@lugit36 Yeah, it felt legitimately chilling. Like a conspiracy theorist's wet dream come true.
besides he needed the info-dump because he was not only going to die, but he was talking to people that weren't easy to stall by giving valuable information and also a small middle finger to HYDRA since they launched a rocket that ended his conscious
I really though they were going to do something interesting with Ares in Wonder Woman. In the New 52 run, Ares wasn't an antagonist. He had lost his bloodthirsty nature through thousands of years of conflict and had realized that mankind was violent and cruel by themselves. He didn't seek to punish mankind or sow war, he was tired and only still had respect for the soldiers caught up in war. When he was revealed as that posh British guy who was negotiating a peace treaty, I really thought they went that direction. That would make Wonder Woman's arc complete. She went to man's world because "Well clearly WWI is Ares' doing." Only to realize that mankind is not innocent in this conflict. Then Ares reveals himself as not only not the cause, but as someone horrified by humanity and who is trying to stop the war.
Man, finally.
I was waiting for someone to say this.
When they bought Ares, I was hoping that with David Thewlis, we would see him as the worn down version of Ares. Him saying "I'm not what you think I am" had me thinking that Ares was not gonna fight her, but rather just talk about how even though he exists, he isn't the bloodthirsty god of war anymore. He's just....tired and sad.
@@koushikraja331 man, that would have been amazing
... That was in the comics? Why didn't they follow the comics?! That would've probably switched the movie from lackluster (imo) to great!
What is it with studios these days refusing to take notes from their source material/inspiration? Smh
The GCI battlefest doesn't bother me as much if characters are different. Hero vs villain with similar power set gets boring, but it's definitely how the most stories have done it 'forever', for most heroes (Spidey is a big exception, but for Venom really). When you can get a different power villain, full team, or bigger villain (Thanos, Doom, Kang) vs a hero or two it's definitely better because of the variation in powers.
I definitely think NWH is a great Third Act, both for Tom's Peter, and the third act of the film itself is also great. If the first 3 movies are acts 1,2&3 then it works really well.
😂🙌
I fully agree with your last part
They aren't boring but just so forgettable and unremarkable. I watched all Marvel films but I can't remember most of them and I re-watched some of them a couple times. In comparison, I watched Birdman only once when it came out and I still remember the atmosphere, overall plot, and ending.
IMHO, the 3rd act and final battle of "Eternals" was really interesting, due to the diversity of powers. Even tho the film was sorta panned by everyone, it's actually good (not great, but not as bad as ppl make it out to be)
no way home big cgi final battle feels forgettable, but luckily we get to see green goblin vs spiderman hand to hand fight. it carries the whole 3rd act imo
I wish an example of a third act done well, according to your criticism was presented. Without it I found the argument to be lackluster.
My thoughts exactly, particularly when the visuals are all over the place, and no indication of which specific flaw or merit were found in any particular 3rd act besides Wonder Woman's.
This is so true his argument just felt like he mostly just wanted to rag on Wonder Woman.
But here's a couple of movies that I think had thematically 3rd acts.
Spiderman 2
- Peter saves Doc Ock morally; allowing him to see the error of his ways, regain control from the influence of the robot arms and ultimately sacrificing himself by collapsing the portal for the greater good.
ZSJL even though it was a huge cgi battle some characters had individually good 3rd acts.
- Cyborg refinding his humanity and a new family, by accepting that he's not broken and forgiving his father of his mistakes.
- Also Batman's whole character arc culmination of unity and faith.
(Which was proven right by Superman coming back to help the JL and Flash realising his full potential)
Doctor Strange
- In the end he was willing to sacrifice himself in an infinite death loop to save earth.
It really showed his hero's journey from just being self absorbed, close minded and terribly selfish, by actually testing his character merit and how much he was willing to sacrifice.
Spiderverse
- The theme of anyone can be Spiderman. It's not just because he has superpowers. Its about taking a leap of faith and wanting to do the greater good.
(In Peter's story even though he's lost close friends and family he still tries to achieve the greater good, of which Miles story perfectly reflected)
Shazam
- The importance of family and being pure of heart. By Billy deciding to share his power with his foster family.
Agreed. Although it may very have been intentional in one of 2 ways. The first would that there isn't a great example of an actual 3rd act resolution (although many have given some good examples, ones in this thread) and the 2nd, which to me is more likely, is that this video ends open ended to set up a future video. More than likely describing what a good 3rd act looks like.
Ironically his own video had a weak 3rd act.
@@343ishill Personally I found Strange’s third act lackluster because his character changes A bit too quickly.
Her monologue leading up to when when she expresses the word “love” killed Wonder Woman for me. Everyone wanted to praise this movie for the first femme led superhero movie but I presume they all meant the first 88% of the movie and pretended the last 12% never happened.
Yup that unnecessary plot twist ruined the movie.
@@Chickenbreast9 it’s also frustrating they didn’t even commit to him sacrificing himself and brought him back for WWII.
She could’ve been a badass, I would’ve loved the entirety of the movie if they just stuck that landing man.
Like everything in the first two acts was so good haha.
The most frustrating part is how the movie betrays its themes about the complex ambiguity of human nature in favor of becoming a Saturday morning cartoon where we get cute lessons about "love is most powerful" or whatever. Even the sequel sort of undercut Steve's sacrifice in favor of getting another nonsensical 80s show.
@@Chickenbreast9 I mean it made sense, but they should've had the plot twist be that Ares didn't do anything he was actually trying to get a peace treaty signed as everyone killed each other.
@@KRYMauL honestly the fight scene less the fucking monologue saying she did it for a dude would’ve been perfectly fine with me too. Like. Man do it for your people. Do it for earth. Do it for justice. But man love? Come on. Just didn’t work for me imho the way she delivered it.
There's plenty of things to hate about the TASM movies but this is something I've loved about them because both the movies' third acts echo the themes of the movie so well and give their characters a proper lesson to learn. Where in TASM1 Peter spends his entire runtime learning what it's like to be a hero and loses his way trying to find a father figure that he misses out on saving the one he did have. He has to find the humanity in him to truly become Spider-Man. And in the end, Dr. Conners', who saves Peter and clearly shows that he still has humanity left in him, literally lifts him up with his human half because he can't do it with his non-human one. Humanity quite literally saves Spider-Man at the end. And that's been the theme of the movie, the humanity of the people and the humanity of Spider-Man and what it means to be both. It's so fucking good.
Whereas for TASM2, we quite literally open on the shot of a watch because the theme is running out of time and struggling to catch up and remembering to enjoy the time you do have. Now TASM2 does have a messy structure, I don't think that's even possible to argue, but its themes and the point of the story don't really get lost in it. The shock of the ending make it kind of impossible to do that tbh. Throughout the entire movie, Peter is struggling to catch up with time and his time is divided between trying to be Peter and find out what happened to his parents and trying to be Spider-Man and save the city. He's torn in two different directions by time and no matter what he does, he never has enough time. Even the people he saves (see: the slow-mo scenes) are barely saved by a fraction of a second. In the end, it all comes to a head as time quite literally breaks and in the one moment Peter needs to be fast and catch up, he's not fast enough. Even Spider-Man can't beat time. All of the characters in the movie are racing against time. Harry was racing against his disease and his arc climaxes with him trying to cheat time and it literally broke him (his bones). None of the characters in the story could beat time. And at the end Peter learns that he needs to make the most of the time that he has. Even with all of the interference with the movie from the studio, they couldn't bury the story Marc Webb and the writers wanted to tell and its themes.
They may not be perfect movies but goddamn they are truly amazing when it comes to their themes and their characters (especially if you see the deleted scenes that were unfortunately cut and deserved to be in the movies).
Really cool analysis!
There are plenty of super hero movies that do this. One in particular I’d point to is Thor Ragnarok. It isn’t just Thor vs a cgi army (the third act does feature that a little bit but it is mostly just to show his new power boost which is argue is worth it for reasons I’ll get to). Thor embraces his role as king of asgard and understands what he must do to be the king he wanted to be and that his father knew he could be. This is interesting because it happens in a way that isn’t what Thor initially thought would be a good thing, the destruction of asgard. The plot of Thor getting more powerful than any hero we’ve seen in the MCU and having it STILL not be enough to defeat Hela to me is amazing. He doesn’t just punch harder and use bigger lightning blasts, Loki even asks him to hit her with another lightning blast and Thor admits he’s tried and thrown everything he has at her and it did nothing. Then he has a very unique solution of having Surtr destroy everything (including Hela). This ties in events from the first act and also connects to the overarching theme of Thor learning to see value in things that aren’t tangible like his hammer or the grand nature of asgard as a city/planet. He learns that Asgard is not a place, it’s a people, and he learns that Mjolnir didn’t make him who he is, the fact that he’s the god of thunder and willing do whatever he must do for his people…. THAT is what makes him a true hero. All of that and throw in the fact that his relationship with Loki reaches a really nice climax that fits right in with Thor’s maturation, he accepts the person Loki is and their differences but they have a genuine moment together where they fight for their home side by side. If that qualifies as a dull uninspired generic third act, then no movies are worth watching. I may be biased because I am a big Thor fan but it’s stories like that which are responsible for me being such a fan of the character. To me the movie was a masterpiece and shows what MCU movies and superhero movies in general can be… good movies, not just good superhero movies.
It also why I like the 3rd act of Doctor Strange. He can't go toe to toe with a literal God from another dimension. So he uses his wit and intelligence. To turn the very thing that draws people to the Dark dimension into a weakness. Basically trolling the villain to win by using a time loop. Knowing that time doesn't exist in the Dark Dimension to his advantage.
@@jordanread5829 I couldn’t agree more, I love how creative that ending is!
I think the third act of Guardians 1 with the dance off fits with Ragnarok and Doctor Strange as creative, in character and thematically relevant.
Ragnarok is absolutely an exception. Fantastic movie. I'm willing to bet it's successful arc is part of why it works and we love it so much.
If you observed the video properly, when describing a good 3rd act, he was showing scenes of Thor: Ragnarok for this very good reason. But he didn't show a single thor 3 clip while criticising 3rd acts
This would have been a great video if it didn't make one absolutely absurd claim. "No superhero movie has a good third act". Just, what?
The Dark Knight. The Suicide Squad. Sam Rami's Spiderman 1 and 2. Infinity War (Wow). The Avengers 1 (wow, wow).
I personally think Dark Knight has the GOAT third act of any movie, superhero or not.
agreed with everything u said .lack of spider verse is the only problem
Every Chris Nolan film has a great third act. He never fails to amaze.
@@herloss448 , You are correct. That is a criminal omission. I attempted to think of everything. Clearly, Spiderverse slipped through the cracks.
I'd argue Civil War, Winter Soldier, No Way Home, Homecoming, BvS, Far From Home and GOTG 1/2 have at least good third acts.
@@lonestarr1490 The Dark Knight Rises shines in this in particular. Just 20 minutes of pure storytelling and emotion.
I think that’s why the Tony Stark character in films has been so beloved.
There’s character arc throughout the whole film series. Even in films he just appears in.
😂🙌
And then he- you know-
@Snehil Shrey, how is his arc dogshit?
@Snehil Shrey Oh, aren't you the Edgey Edgerton. You are so bold with your hipsterish hate for a popular character! Can I be like you?
@Snehil Shrey Your use of aggressive and crass language convinces me that you are a discerning and thoughtful individual.
3rd acts in super-hero movies (or really most action movies nowadays) are usually underwhelming because the climax is often treated like a setting rather than a plot.
The plot always makes a dramatic shift from real storytelling to more of a checklist: go here, stop this bad guy, and then the story will conclude. When the fight itself continues the story and visually culminates the conflicts up to that point, then it becomes a real final act.
I feel like even action movies are shifting to calling themselves superhero movies because they're the most popular version.
I don't think UA-cam review culture ever really includes this very important element.
Every year, there's a new generation of fans that reach the age of viewership.
What's "old" or played out to us is brand new to that new generation. The tropes are worn out if you ask someone who's been watching movies for literally 20-30yrs.
For a 7-10yrs old kid.... it's all still fresh. It may take them 20yrs before they're actually tired of the content that the older generations have already grown out of.
These movies are marketed and advertised for all ages but they're primarily directed at that younger generation.
This is why you don't hear kids and teens complaining or nitpicking the content. They're still at the age where they can shut their brains off and just enjoy. It's not old to them yet.
They still want the toys, they want to wait in line with their friends, they want to be there opening night, they want the clothes and other merch, and they generally love every aspect of the experience.
Kids aren't showing up to analyze the 3 act structure or to grade the pop culture references.
The same goes for international audiences new to the blockbuster age, which is why studios cater to them first and foremost. For them, this is their 1980s.
The reason why UA-camrs don’t care about this is because they understand that filmmaking is an art and is designed to overanalysed just because kids don’t care about analysing films doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t and just because something is made for a younger audience doesn’t mean it should be of less quality.
@@DamnDawg414
1. Quality, in this context, isn't a matter of preference. Not liking the way a story is told...doesn't automatically make it a low quality story.
2. UA-camrs aren't ONLY criticizing technical quality aspects. They are often nitpicking elements that have less to do with quality and more to do with preference.
3. The CORE target demographic is more naturally found in that state of suspended disbelief. The writers and directors understand that minor plot holes will be missed by kids and teens that are caught up in a story.
3. 30-50yr old movie reviewers CAN'T OR WON'T over look minor technical errors or plot holes. They actually get paid to look for them and expose them. The target demographic is getting what they want and that leads to more revenue and more content.
4. Picking a part the departure from realistic acts or events in children's or young adult content.... that would be counter productive for filmmakers in a way. It's the nonsense, the mistakes that characters make, the flaws, and the unbelievable stuff that separates the movies from real life. Kids don't wanna go see a documentary.
5. This formula of storytelling has worked since ancient times literally. Of course the adults will always outgrow the stories or the way their told. But the formula is clearly effective for the right consumer.
Part of reviewing a product should also be about understanding exactly who it was made for and why. There's nothing wrong with outgrowing the content. The problem is proceeding as if the content was specifically made for you when it's not.
Recycling tropes and story beats will continue and a new generation will come along and enjoy them the same way we did. The older guys will continue to get tired of it. And the world will continue to turn.
This is so well written and perfectly sums up why - and I hate to say it - i am increasingly having difficulties with RLM (and other youtube) reviews recently. (Except YMS - he seems the least biased to me so far)
Every generation has *their* movies and every generation holds *their movies* to such high regard that for anyone to say anything bad about them - outsiders are wrong.
I recently realised this when watching Ghostbusters afterlife. I am a millenial and whilst I did grow up watching (and LOVING) ghostbusters; my generation never owned it. Gen xers did. Ghostbuster afterlife is a cute, dare I say it, funny take on the ghostbusters franchise. I thought it was genuinely good. My children absolutely LOVED it. They had so much fun. Then I watched the RLM review about the film and they acted like someone had kicked a kitten in front of them. You cant hold movies to such monolithic heights. Some movies *are* untouchable, and some, like afterlife, were *meant to be made. I'm not saying we should stop listening to reviewers or RLM but what I am saying is that when there are reboots/remakes - maybe, just maybe, take their OPINIONS with a grain of salt.
Spider-Man No way Home 3rd act is Amazing! Tears to my eyes
1:23-1:43/ Nothing to do with the THIRD ACT topic, I just wanted to point out how the 2 greatest superhero films from my youth have a TWILIGHT ZONE connection! 1978's SUPERMAN was directed by Richard Donner (R.I.P.), who got his start in the early 60's directing episodes of the Rod Serling classic TV series. 11 years later, my introduction to the Batverse came courtesy of Tim Burton's landmark film. One of the actors was Pat Hingle, who played Commissioner Gordon. Guess which early 60's TV show he guest starred in? Yup, THE TWILIGHT ZONE!
The problem with super hero movie third acts: sky beams.
Yeah but what was the last big superhero film with a sky beam, suicide squad??
@@BigPurp9 justice league, the avengers
@@defectivepikachu4582 that’s my point, avengers came out in 2012 and justice league 2017. Superhero movies are pretty self aware now about the sky beam cliche.
@@BigPurp9 spiderverse had a beam
And punks jump up to get beat down. And videogame macguffins ("do this to stop that from happening", etc).
This is why The Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises work so well for me! They leave you with a complete story and the third act has everything to do with what was set up prior.
Think about if in the first act of Wonder Woman she was reluctant to being born essentially as nothing more than a “god killer” and saw her self no different from any other Amazon. Still with a strong sense of wanting to help the world though. Then in the third act she would have to fight and actual god to defend the world. That should tie 1st and 3rd pretty well and not as disconnected
That's not story, that's just plot. And I don't remember her being reluctant at all when it comes to fighting anything. So it's just the "wants", not the "needs", if you will. There is no epiphany here, nothing really happens with her character. She just stops being clumsy and that's it.
I think the reason so many of these films' third acts seem to shove aside their themes in the third act is that they lack a climactic decision for their protagonist(s) with multiple believable potential outcomes. It's not like Ant-Man is just gonna NOT risk his life to save his daughter. It's not like Tony Stark is just gonna let Whiplash murder a bunch of people. It's not like Cap is just gonna bail out of the plane and let New York get nuked. Something like Infinity War is a bit more effective, since we can believe that Wanda's decision to kill Vision or keep hoping she can save him could go either way, and same with Dr. Strange giving up the time stone or not, but Thor's plot is the weakest because the only choice he faces is whether he'll risk his own life. James Gunn's The Suicide Squad gets more points for making its protagonists the kind of people who might reasonably walk away from a battle they're not being ordered to fight. Better still though are films like The Dark Knight, where Bruce faces a rapid-fire series of choices forcing him to define exactly where and how he falls on the ideological spectrum laid out by the other characters' actions and moral arguments. Deadpool is a weird outlier, in that his REAL climactic decision is whether to show his girlfriend his scarred face, which is amusingly low-stakes but required them to throw in a mostly unrelated action sequence to compensate.
I’m getting tired of how everything now is a universe/world ending threat. I wish there was more personal, one on one stuff
Thank You!!
Another thing that happens to the WW movie, as well as many more superhero stories, is that some narratives don't need a specific antagonist. It could've flowed way better if Diana just fought a bunch of Prussians or whatever in the final act and tie it back to the theme of "a girl discovers what the real world is like". But you gotta sell toys, I guess
All I have to say is watch No Way Home for a phenomenal third act that leaves the hero where we always wanted him to be.
alone… you wanted him alone.
just joking obviously but man was that a good movie
@@jordantmp lol Spider-Man fans are villains
We wanna see Peter SUFFER
@@Courier_333 No, we wanna see Peter as a grounded person. Someone who realizes the great weight of his actions; someone who fights for the best in people without regard for himself. That’s what makes Spider-Man amazing.
@@TakeThisification of course
But you have to break characters to see what they're truly made of
@@Courier_333 and breaking is not suffering because suffer cause trauma.
In my opinion it's them using the entire movie for buildup that the third act is pretty much rushed to get to the ending
That I can agree with.
I'm actually fine with most third act battles as long as it's entertaining to watch or has something interesting going on. But I do understand why quite a few of them don't work.
that's exacly my problem with avengers endgame, the first part feels like an eternity but the ending is super rushed
To me, superhero films with 3rd act as the BEST part were Endgame and The Dark Knight. Endgame was obvious because it's an endless pay off to 20+ films, and concluded the original Avenger's arc.
While TDK third act got everything that made that version of Batman top-tier. Joker's final challenge in the boat scene where he tested Gotham citizens' morals, Fox questioned over Secuity vs. Privacy, and Harvey Dent tragic turned that came full circle as he "live long enough to see yourself become a villian". Best of all, it culminated in Gordon EPIC speech that sums up Batman as a silent protector who can be hated and tested, but will live on as a symbol to who bring fear to the criminals. So moving, poetic, and a little tragic all at once.
Endgame's problem is that it took 20 movies to get there, and it requires fealty to the franchise to make any sense of it. Nearly any of the pre-Craig Bond movies could be seen as is without watching the others (although they're more episodic and also follow the same Syd Field/Campbellian tropes).
Endgame was good but it had a ton of fan service. And the final battle was just a cgi fest. All of Thanos minions were unrecognisable.
TDK was fucking gid tier. And the villain actually won because Batman broke his one rule when he killed Harvey.
I always assumed third acts suck because the movies are big budgets and they feel the need to up the ante to keep people invested. The issue is when so many movies are "save the city/world/universe" it kinda gets stale especially if the big finale is just a CGI fest and not properly choreograph to make it stand out.
Big action movies or romance are easier to sell but sometimes it's nice to have something that's low stakes but personal.
Indeed, these movies become checklists at that point.
3rd acts can be done both ways, and the stakes can be intertwined. A huge battle can have personal stuff within.
I like when a movie has the hero lose everyone now and then. It’s slightly humbling and usually unexpected.
I honestly feel as though No Way Home’s third act was solid NOT BECAUSE of the amazing action and interactions therein but the THEMES it drives home of the toll that it takes to be Spider-Man… or maybe that’s just me?
You're not alone mate
@@MarcosLopez-sl8in lol glad you think so amigo
It all complemented one another. You're absolutely spot on.
@@jakubrejak1114 Yeaaah that’s exactly how I felt especially after seeing it for a second time. You should check out Cosmonaut’s video on No Way Home because I think he brings up some pretty good points, too.
@@Ray-Bedrock-Edition-17.23 I did. It also helps Marcus isn't so biased because he's always viewed MCU Spider-Man in a rather positive light.
Guess that’s why no way home feels refreshing, yea there were some “big cgi generic fight moments” we all hate towards the end but at least it felt like there was genuine growth for Holland’s Spider-Man at the end (marvel the smart ppl at marvel take note)
Glad to see someone finally talking about this, since its been on my mind for a while now. This has been a problem for superhero movies going all the way back to Superman 78's ridiculous time-reverse stuff. But it's not always about the CGI, though. Even movies that are considered the genre's best, like The Dark Knight and Logan, have 3rd acts that are arguably weaker than the rest of their movies, like Two-Face's shenanigans and the "Evil Wolverine" respectively. And these do have connections to the stories' overall themes, but for whatever reason these are the flattest parts
Minor spoiler:I feel like Spider Man:No way home set up the third act for a lot of characters really well, especially since some of them just didn't get the justice they had deserved before.
YES!!!!
For me, civil war's third act is one, if not the best, superhero third act I had seen.
No CGI monsters, just two superhero in a slugfest to fight for their principles and to fight on behalf of their love ones...
It's theme had progressed in a way that I didn't see coming. No ultimate villain to defeat just a battle of inner demons within themselves that culminated in a blow by blow hits that really hurts me no matter who is in the receiving end.
Civil war's third act is as memorable, engaging and thought provoking as it hits my emotions to the deepest roots from deep within.
I was thinking the same thing watching the video. I feel like Civil War is one of the top, if not the best entry in the MCU, and the third act is a big reason for that.
The MCU Spider-Man films are strong contenders for solid third acts as well, thought I’d argue more so Homecoming? I haven’t seen the third one yet so I have no idea.
civil war is one of the best marvel movies because its entirely about the characters as humans and not their powers
Agreed, with the slight exception that it renders Cap's fate unresolved as a fugitive in his own trilogy (to be continued in Avengers movies). But in itself, a brilliant character study.
I actually hated Civil War when I first saw it. It is a film whose existence in the universe and need to set up for more holds it back to me. As a result, neither the Cap-Tony nor the Cap-Zemo nor the overall Civil War part get the attention they need. Plus, calling it 'Civil War' is such a nerdbait move...
In the MCU, I might argue that No Way Home subverted this quite well-and I might even say each Spider-Man MCU solo movie has done a decent job of not falling quite so heavily into these issues, in part thanks to his exceptional and varied rogues gallery (and also not being explicitly beholden to only Kevin Feige’s vision). Of course outside the MCU there have been other successes at this such as Spider-Verse-but rarely are these movies able to balance their action with the themes of the movie.
Big CGI monster fights as endings have to stop.
They used to never be a thing. I miss stand-alone superhero trilogies not tied to a cinematic universe.
Honestly I don’t mind CGI driven 3rd acts as long as it makes sense with the story and it’s consistent with the rest of the movie. In something like the Avengers movies and ZSJL, it’s a teamup movie with 6 superheroes so it makes sense. Even in Aquaman it makes sense and even then the 3rd act still had a spear to spear fight on land as well as Man of Steel since you have two godlike beings against each other. In something like Black Widow, Shang Chi and Wonder Woman, it just doesn’t work because the first two acts were more grounded in terms of their action. I did like Shang Chi’s fight with his dad a lot in Shang Chi but the rest was just mostly CGI nonsense.
Doctor Strange though honestly was one of my favorite 3rd acts in any superhero movie. It’s not CGI explosions but it instead uses this mechanic with the time stone set up in the 2nd act and it comes back again in such an ingenious and creative manner.
Big CGI battles can work if they fit the tone of the story and still have genuine emotional moments with conclusion and character growth
I think Aquaman was a special case that worked because it knew how utterly batshit insane and ridiculous it was, which created a go-with-the-flow spirit throughout.
Wonder Woman's 3rd act splendidly tied into her established need to be ruled by expectation and having her perception fit the real world rather than relying on her preconceived notion. And it did so without a stretched out army of Ares noobs.
Shang-Chi was just plain ridiculous well into its 2nd act ("Hey, how about I try to kill my children just to prove they are worthy of me being a relatable villain...???"), and in its 3rd act because, all of a sudden, a tag-along sidekick gets super-trained by people whose language she never spoke and then delivers a critical action blow, and then the hero performs martial arts moves which alters the moral composition of a macguffin that was never explained in the first place (complete with color changes for easy metaphors... y'know, for the kids), just because.
Black Widow went for the typical Uno reverse card trick, which is what is done when a movie is rushed into production, and robbed the whole dramatic flow of the story (despite being used earlier on a sidekick for the excuse of precedent).
I'm on the fence as to the problem with superhero movies. I can agree that it's the third act, but to say that a superhero needs to die to complete their story is unimaginative. Just because you won the battles of the day doesn't mean your journey is over.
What I think is the bigger problem that is more easily solved is the problem of killing the villain. Part of what makes Batman have such a compelling backlog of villains is that they have been fleshed out over numerous encounters, even within a single generation of the lore. That is, in part, because Batman doesn't kill his foes. This leaves a full livery of villains to choose from that you need not spend time developing the audience's attachment to them as they're already familiar. Thanks was one of the most interesting villains in modern cinematic history simply because you got to learn who he was and why he did those things before he was ultimately thwarted. What's more, he won, at least initially. That's almost unheard of in modern cinema, where villains must lose and heroes must come home via parade. It's the same reason Empire Strikes Back was, and still is, such a compelling story that sticks with the viewer long after watching.
I’m glad you used Wonder Woman for the pic because that movie was perfect up until that terrible third act
I see Nerdstalgic, I click.
I find it frustrating that you point to this fairly obvious problem and present no example of how to solve it... Or even just the tones it's been avoided. It's like you skipped the third act of your own script.
LOL
No Way Home nailed its third act for not just 1 but three movies. Creating a battle that made sense and was more than just, beat the people up. It's one of those kinds of battle I like in D&D, where the finale isn't just beat up peopel till they don't move, it's do something very difficult while in danger .
Good vid. I’ve always been generally more interested in 2nd acts over 3rd acts anyway but the obligatory big 3rd act battles in superhero movies have been getting increasingly generic. There are some good superhero 3rd acts though. The Dark Knight, Civil War & Logan are three that spring to mind
Mmmh... Logan is kind of cheating, though.
It is essentially a (barely disguised) deconstructive western - one may be excused if they felt that they were watching a less cynical take on "Unforgiven" - and it was going to be the last appearance of that incarnation of Wolverine anyway.
With that in mind, avoiding a significant third act would have taken a special kind of "talent".
(A pity that "Logan" was not the last movie in the Fox's X-Men franchise - it would have made a class final act for that series of movies, too.)
P.S. I belatedly realize that such kind of talent is not scarce in Hollywood, see "Black Widow" - last appearance for an already dead character, no narrative significance for her in sight.
@@woongah I wouldn’t call it cheating for Logan to be a western. Slotting superheroes into other genres is a common modern phenomenon that slowed the process of superhero movies going stale for a while. Winter Soldier was a spy paranoia thriller. Guardians of the Galaxy a space opera. Ant-Man a heist movie. I like them all but their 3rd acts were more generic superhero style than Logan. Admittedly Winter Soldier’s was given a bit more depth by the Cap & Bucky relationship & Ant-Man’s had a fresh approach to some of the action with the toy set battle, but they were still mostly generic 3rd acts.
Spider-Man: No Way Home gets rid of everything you critiqued in this video, I think. I hope you enjoy it!
I was literally gonna comment that lol..
Just saw it last night and yes I totally concur.
I think modern superhero third acts are a lot like 80s action movies third acts
Studios think audiences want big massive cgi climaxes
To this day I wish Iron-Man didn't have the big fight with the two armors, it's sooo good before that and I feel like that third act kind of ruined it
This was Amazing man
The Dark Knight is perfect.
@Snehil Shrey what is ur favourite superhero movie friend ?
Shang Chi 3º act bored so much that I didn't bother to watch the Eternals
Yeah that one was pretty bad I usually keep watching the third act even if it's a little boring but I just stopped at the end of that movie I didn't care
Eternals 3rd act was ok. Black Widow, Shang Chi 3rd acts ruined the movies for me. Both films start off as pretty decent grounded spy thriller and martial arts films but of course both by the third act it ended up being spectacle fly through the air cgi nonsense.
As you said, those films are set up to be serials, you can't make your protagonist achieve a character-changing milestone if they have to come back later to change again. If you always have to go further, either the character's journey ends quickly, or they never really change to leave room for more "change"...
It's ironic (or maybe hypocritical) that they're called "serials" when they're more like "episodes". Movies have become TV shows now, and not the "new golden age" kind.
I've heard this argument before, but I failed to understand it, I think. Can a character only change but once? Why can't there be anymore development or growing after the first "epiphany"?
I mean, sure, if your character is rather 1-dimensional, then of course you won't be able to get much more out of them than the one trick pony they are. But I imagine a character with a proper setup should be able to learn several lessons, each one building on top of the former, thus allowing for multiple three-arcs that still feel somewhat personal.
Modern Superhero movies thirds acts that worked:
Into the Spider-Verse, Shazam!, Zack Snyder’s Justice League, No Way Home, The Suicide Squad, Infinity War, Endgame, GotG Vol. 2
u lost all credibility when u added snyder cut bro .what a ugly 3rd act that was
@@herloss448 The Snyder cut’s climax was great IMO. The Darkseid appearance; everyone working as a team, and Barry traveling in time to save everyone
@@MrR3TR0 oh lol .i remember darkseid got scared so bad he didnt even came through the portal .just watched them destroying his boxes and the sudden flash scene where he kills stakes in the entire DCEU . what a retarted movie .u break the time u make a time boom that's the rules . a ugly CGI salad .anyways u do urs
@Nerdstalgic do traditional Asian films like martial arts films ( pre 2010s) follow 3 act structure?
What about Spider-Man NWH? Now that was an impressive third act!
That’s definitely what I felt about shang-chi. Overall, it was really good, but the final act felt like filler for the important parts (Shang-chi conflict with his dad and the friends growth to do something more with what she’s capable off). There’s nothing much wrong with the action here to be honest as it’s really fun and more unique for the mcu, and at least is one of the better final acts where it blends with the story written.
I’m actually kinda annoyed by how the mcu makes the final act battle before hand for every film. I feel like it should be necessary for the BIG films where it’s more convenient.
The following post discussing Spiderman: No Way Home. I have tried to be generic enough to be completely spoiler-free. I will delete this comment if any reply says they consider what I said to be a spoiler.
You bring up a great point about "knowing they have 14 more movies planned". I feel like that was one of the ways No Way Home's finale felt so engaging: the stakes were completely up in the air. This could easily be the last appearance of *any* of the characters, and every character on the "good side" was beloved enough that their deaths would be felt hard. Meanwhile in terms of narrative (unlike the all-too-common trope in so many Superhero movies), it wouldn't make sense for any of the "good guys" to kill any of the "bad guys", so you know that death could both happen, and would count as a loss if it did.
Gal Guh-DOTT. I know it’s weird. I thought it was Guh-DOH too.
Awesome video.
My favorite superhero endings, of course, were crafted by Christopher Nolan.
In Batman Begins: Batman uses the blade catchers on his gauntlets (the same ones he used to save Ra's Al Ghul's from falling to an unceremonious death) to break Ra's's sword into pieces. He goes on to win the fight and leave his mentor to fall to an unceremonious death.
In The Dark Knight: Early in the film, the Joker infiltrates Wayne Mansion and goes on a tirade about his scars whilst terrorizing Bruce's guests in search of Harvey Dent. At the end of the film, after terrorizing both the Joker's disguised henchmen and a team of armed SWAT officers, Batman uses the launch function to shoot the blade catchers off of his gauntlets give the Joker even more scars before tossing him off a building.
In the Dark Knight Rises: Batman gets physically broken by Bane. None of his moves seem to have any effect. Early in the film, Bane brags to a CIA interrogator how painful it would be to remove his mask. Then we see the origin of the mask, irreparable damage he received when protecting Talia Al Ghul. At the end of the film, Batman uses his blade catchers to rip pieces of Bane's mask out of place and win the fight.
Something about those blade catchers seems natural rather than overplayed. He uses them in creative ways to defeat each opponent. It isn't the same move over and over. Besides, it's clear that an identical move simply wouldn't work against the three supervillains. It's not the gear itself, but the methods applied. In a way, those things are more apart of Batman than his batarangs.
*Random Bonus*
Scarecrow, Riddler (Mr. Reese), Zsaz, and Joker are all defeated and arrested. However, Bane and Ra's, former members of the League of Shadows (like Batman) end up dead when they bring their anarchy to Gotham.
*Bonus Random Bonus*
I don't imagine that Nerdstalgic would read this needlessly long comment, but if he does, I hope I can offer a topic that I lack the patience to break down in proper detail. Why is it that every 'hand to hand expert' is always some form of martial artist? No street fighters, no environmentalists, no submission artists, no wrestling types. Just the same old jujutsu in every fight scene. When we get to the Shang Chi movie, kung fu is so played out that his moves and label as the greatest combat expert just... falls flat.
Studios think audiences want huge cgi battle royales for 3rd acts as a result of the MCU etc. Forgetting that the best superhero 3rd acts (Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2, Dark Knight, X-Men Days of Future Past etc) are the hero and villains's engaged in an ideological battle/reflecting each other. Peter bringing Otto back from the brink, the Joker and Batman being 2 sides of the same coin, Jean sacrificing herself to protect the X-Men not only from the imminent danger they're in but also the looming threat she feels growing inside her. Those are genuine 3rd acts and climaxes. The way it's supposed to be.
Avengers Age of Ultron has my favourite third act of any comic book movie mainly because it has more thematically relevant dialogue than most movies do.
Hello Future Me sorta dovetails this topic when discussing the issue of power creep in fantasy fiction.
That instead of seeking bigger challenges in serial fiction, rather incomparable challenges are preferable.
So there is a more unique opportunity for growth, or permanent change that takes the hero past points of no return.
No way home, Deadpool kinda, and Spiderverse all have Solid third acts.
I would have loved if you could give a example of a good superhero ending that follows your summary at the end. For me personally, The Dark Knight would be a movie that actually does that, and I believe that that is on of the reason that it is regarded in a different class as most other superhero movies. Great video though!
"when was the last time a super hero movie had a reasonably good third act?" Two days ago. No way home. Shang chi a few months ago. Endgame before the dark times. Like it's quite common.
The Suicide Squad 2021 and Far From Home,
The Dark Knight and I think Superman VS. The Elite also work for me.
What I can't imagine is an empty big explosion battle at the end of a marvel movie....
Disney: "ain't reading all that"
Weird how the video frames the film Aquaman as not having a superb third act, when in that film the character did actually developed from being this perenial loner who doesn’t care about the politics of Atlantis to becoming the good emphatetic leader who seeks to use his ascension as king to bridge the barrier between land and sea. Basically it gave a complete coming of age sort of story of a man embracing his own past to create a better future
Nailed it. Then you add on the lack of any type of emotional growth or change which they obviously are in capable of because this is canon
funny enough. if they swap the order and made the fight with Ares first then Steves talk next. it would have made it better, even if ares was defeated. the war raged on. it cemented that it didnt matter who started it. just who finish it.
Oh my God! You are right!!
Spider-Man no way home had a quality 3rd act 🔥
I just wanna see one superhero movie where the heroes take a small super powerful team to storm the castle and take out the big bad guy (which you'd assume would make the rest of the bad guys stop fighting), and then it turns out the other bad guys don't know their leader has been taken out and they go on and just massacre the people the heroes were trying to protect in the first place.
“competing juggernauts” (mcu, dceu)
ahahahahahahaha
The problem with superhero movies is there are toooooo many of them. And they’re pretty much all the same.
Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Far From Home, Iron Man 3, Shang-Chi, and The Suicide Squad all had emotionally resonant 3rd acts that were in conversation with their first acts. I could go movie-by-movie, but I don't think I need to.
Nerdstalgic, I've come to bargain.
I was kinda hoping that you also propose some solutions to this issue at the end on the video.
Maybe stuff for another video...
Unbreakable is an exception to this. But it's also an exception in superhero movies full stop.
All Shyamalan movies are an exception to their genres lmao
ragnarok, civil war, infinity war and endgame are few that i can think of, that have a GREAT 3rd act
No Way Home had a brilliant Third Act! Great Stuff!
what's the music at 6:02 plz???
4:38 You can have characters in "real trouble" without lazily killing them off.
it occurred to me that as you was say, these superhero movies are in a perpetual second act and I thought Endgame was them finally getting around to the third act
but then they just started it all over again
Endgame finally gives closure to the original Avengers team
then after Endgame they just decided to start it all over again
Everyone goes for as much CGI as possible and as the earth has to always be at risk. But the best climaxes have personal stakes. Nothing was on the line at the end of civil war accept friendship. And it was awesome.
I definitely hated how in WW, just by killing Ares, the war was over, it would have been better if Diana had that way of thinking, just for Ares to tell her that even if he dies, the conflicts would still be going, then she kills him, and sees that indeed, nothing changes, and that Ares and Steve where right about mankind, but she doesn't loses hope and decides to guide humanity for the better as years passes by, ending the wars along the way
This video could have been longer! Definitely agree with the perpetual second act these films go through. I stopped watching Marvel awhile back for that reason.
Are you saying climactic cgi end battles are boring because they don't relate to the theme of the movie or because those are now common?
As for the "everything ends after one thing is defeated" trope, Joss Whedon wrote himself into a corner. He basically said in the dvd extras (perhaps commentary) that he needed a quick resolution and new it was cheap.
As someone who grew up in the 1990s-2010s, I'd actually say that the Superhero Genre replaced either the Raunchcom (Saving Silverman, Knocked Up, Forgetting Sarah Marshall) or Historic Adventure genre (The Mummy, National Treasure, and Sahara which effectively killed off the genre in 2005). By 2008, when the first Iron Man came out, westerns had been dead for 14-ish years, with the big reappraisal happening in 2012.
I think modern day Superhero movies with decent third acts are Shazam and Aquaman. Arthur finds his mom after believing she was dead for so long. He goes to find trident of the original king of Atlantis, passes a test, and takes what he learned and what his mother told him to fight his brother and save both Atlantis and the human realm from a tyrant. That’s a great moment for Arthur. Shazam is even better because Billy discovers his Mom never accidentally lost him. She knew he was found but decided to leave him thinking he was better off in someone else’s care. He finally learns to let go and then rushes to save his new family.
The third act of these movies are the main reason superhero movies makes so much at the box office.
NWH - "Imma bout to end this whole videos career"
You put this out right when no way home has one of the best third acts
feels like the first two Raimi Spider-Man movies were good with their third act I feel.
Dr. Strange had a decent finale. The first part of the Act 3 was the usual punch-fest. But the "bargaining" with Dormammu worked really well thematically. Shazam is still probably the best, though.
I think super hero movies need to start diverging from the idea that they all need a big bad guy to fight antagonizing forces for a story can come in many shapes and forms
How unlucky that Nerdstalgic would put up such a fair criticism right when Now Way Home allows me to answer to most of the "when was the last time" question with "yesterday"
Yo I actually forgot who the bad guy was in Wonder Woman.
If you're coming from knowing the comics, you're better off, but if this is your first time, a lot of stuff is forgettable
Did we ever figure out what Enchantress was doing in the third act?
Nerdstalgic and The Royal Ocean Film Society are the only channels I know who give their analysis videos “flare.”
😂
As a superhero fan born in the 70s who watched all of this happen, I agree with this assessment, but I can't tell you how happy I am to live in a time where you can edit this together with so many clips from so many superhero movies. I hear your criticism but I'm watching all of these awesome moments. This is what I hoped and dreamed would happen when I was growing up and now it's everywhere. So for anyone and everyone who is sick of so many superhero movies and shows, I just LOL. Perhaps if you're not that satisfied with third acts it's because you want a resolution where it truly ends. You want a hero movie where the hero hangs up his cape at the end, I guess go watch "Shane" or "The Mark of Zorro." But essentially that is what you're saying.
WW84 ending was the worst ending I've ever seen in any film.
"I wish I didn't have terminal cancer... No sorry, I'm not giving my wish back"