You've heard of South Croydon, East Croydon and West Croydon, but have you ever heard of Central Croydon? Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jagohazzard Patreon: / jagohazzard
Those gardens have been closed since before I moved out this year, in January.... when I was living there and during lockdown I would walk to South Croydon and keep going to some of the commons, where the golf course is. Not far from some of your shots, maybe a 15 min walk, there's Spencer Road Halt Station, an abandoned station off South Croydon. You can see the old tracks and bits and bobs of the old platform.
I noticed that last year, remembered when I was a kid loads of green spaces like queen's gardens, Ashcroft theatre gardens and green space outside college campus, now all boarded up and building sites(sigh!) Now writing from 50 shades of green in Ireland 😁
In what is now the London Borough there were, in the days of steam, no fewer than 27 railway stations, and that does not take into consideration that such things as Church Road, Tamworth Road and the wide front gardens of the Brighton Road at Purley are legacies of the horse drawn public railways that predated the steam age.
East Croydon is clearly central enough and always has been, it's bizarre why they thought another station was needed! Tramlink has ended up serving the centre of Croydon anyway
Unless you walk down I think Market Street I find Old Town and The Town Hall a little awkward to find at ground level. except when I dont need to be there and the buses get diverted.
In fact before Tramlink opened and they hadn't yet decided on all the stop names, what ended up being called "George St" stop was provisionally named "Croydon Central" in several maps. It's not on the same site as the old railway station, being one road further to the north, but clearly it must have been seriously considered. In the end, we ended up with another stop (opened much later) taking the name "Centrale", which would habe been pretty confusing if "Croydon Central" had also been on the system.
And the Centrale stop was originally called Tamworth Road. It changed when the Drummond Centre was expanded and renamed. It's possible that what is regarded as central Croydon has moved a bit northwards since this station was built. The town hall is there now but that's actually the southern end of the town centre which extends about half a mile north from there, ending at West Croydon station.
@@IndigoJo interesting. I knew Tamworth Road was the proposed name for what became Centrale, but I had always thought that in the same way as Croydon Central became George Street that the name change happened before the stop actually opened to passengers... It can't have been called "Tamworth Road" for very long then?
Croydon gets a bad press, but I enjoyed living there and attending the Art College in the '90s. I worked at the Fairfield Halls and drank in the town centre pubs. There were no trams them and East Croydon station was just reopening after renovation. I had no idea about the lost station, although there was another now-closed station close to where I lived on Lower Addiscombe Road.
@@HaydenPK Since I wrote that comment earlier I rewatched JH’s video about Hayes and Addiscombe and their part in the Jubilee Line story. The station I remember is Addiscombe, but the video shows Woodside too.
I worked in Croydon for about 9 months in the "50p building". Had a great view of the skyline (haha) and the station. I've walked all over that area many times and had no idea there used to be a station there! Yet again, Jago giving me history lessons I didn't know I was missing!
Interesting fact: Croydon Minster was designed by George Gilbert Scott who also designed St Pancas.... Ok, he was prolific and designed about 10,000 buildings so anywhere could probably say the same. I'm trying Croydon, I'm trying.
Designed St Mary's Cathedral here in Edinburgh - his son did the red telephone boxes and Battersea power station, but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already know that :)
I used to take the Croydon station every day but this was Croydon Pennsylvania and the station of Philadelphia. As an American it's always amazing how many things we just named after England and Scotland
That's because the people who originally settled in those areas named them for the places they'd emigrated from. Where I grew up, in the Greater Toronto Area, in Canada, many places are named after towns in northern England (York, Scarborough, Pickering Whitby, Peterborough...), because that's where their early settlers came from.
In Canada the British settlers went all-out. Not only do we have a London, Ontario and Stratford, Ontario, but the river running through London is named The Thames, and the river through Stratford is named The Avon. So our Stratford is upon Avon too!
@@OntarioTrafficMan The first I heard of Stratford, Ontario was when it’s most famous resident was going to switch on the Christmas lights at the Westfield shopping centre in Stratford, London. Thankfully I wasn’t there at the time. Some of the Diesel locomotives used in the UK were built in London, Ontario. When our new Elizabeth Line finally opens, more than three years late, it will come to the surface at Stratford, the one where Mr. Bieber had switched on the Christmas lights. The next station down the line, only about one kilometre away, is called Maryland after the area it is situated in, which in turn was unusually named after the one in the US. I live in Croydon, England, but made a point of passing through Croydon, PA when I was over there. I was staying close to the Journal Square PATH station, so I took PATH to Newark, NJ Transit train to Trenton, River Line to Camden - presumably named after the one in London - PATCO high speed line over the bridge to Philadelphia, SEPTA via Croydon to Trenton I think, and then back the way I came. Seeing the River Line was the main reason for my visit; this was just a few days after it opened.
Did I hear you describe Croydon (or some part of it) as, "far out'? As in "Far out, man", a phrase much beloved back in the 1970. Good Gracious! That's half a decade ago! Where has the time gone. I must be off and about my business. Thanks, Mr H. Superb, as always. Simon T
@@henrybest4057 That is no doubt true, and I'm sure that in saying it we are making an invaluable contribution to Mr H's original post. Hmmm - that could be a fence - some of those are Post and Rail. Oh dear. Simon T
Well, I thought I was pretty good on UK railways, but I'd never heard of the Central Croydon line - thank you for filling that Croydon-shaped gap in my knowledge.
The one thing about Croydon is there is a lot of civic pride. You will have more comments on this video than you've had on any video this year, purely because of your inadvertent summoning of Croydonites past and present
I grew up there and every so often the Croydon Advertiser would print a front-page story about how Croydon was this wonderful place and the following week there would be letters saying it was a dump.
I'm not from croydon butyoure gonna have more people from near Croydon like me than actual Croydon South london gets so little attention to any suburb remotely near our neighbourhood which gets exposure is greeted like the second coming
I think Croydon Central could still work! But only as a tube station with a frequent cross London service though. Quite obviously this would be in the form of the Victoria Line, which you mentioned. It was never going to work as a branch line terminus for a mainline company connecting to central London Couple up the tube connections across London with better access into both central London and central Croydon without the need to wait long or faff about on the “last mile” legs, and it could be a popular station!
Yeah I think Croydon would really work as an extension of the Victoria Line, it would take a lot of pressure off of the mainline into Victoria itself as well. It's not going to happen though as the tube only gets extended for expensive new developments now, ordinary people aren't worth the effort.
@@chrisfry8244 Woah! Who said there won’t be new developments in or around Croydon in the future? 👀 Besides, relieving the mainlines as well as serving areas with poor access to public transport is still an official argument used by TfL to build extensions, as is the case with the Bakerloo Extension to Lewisham along the Old Kent Road. But it probably does need some sort of development to push it to actually happen
@@chrisfry8244 Noooooo why? The overground comes to West Croydon and East Croydon has numerous fast trains from Victoria which go to Gatwick Airport so technically we already have a V line extension that is faster than putting in a V line extension.
My Dad’s commute used to involve changing trains at East Croydon, and as I’m a child of the 1980s he would take me to work on my schools inset training days. So I still associate East Croydon with extra days off school!
I had a school-friend who was born in Croydon. He hated it when I called him a Cockney. We went to school in Dorset, so anyone born within a hundred miles of London was a Cockney as far as I was concerned!
I'm not sure why or how this was recommended to me, besides my location, however, you've answered a question that I've been regularly asking my family/friends since I was 10 years old. So thank you for finally putting a pin in that 17-year long mystery for me!
Another great video. I've written three (I think) histories of the Central Croydon station. The final closure suited the council, as they needed to widen the high street. The street was so narrow, the new tramway was single track. It helped them build a new town hall. The LBSCR got to close the station, and obtained the Fairfield in the process. Coincidentally, your video appears as members of the The Brighton Circle (LBSCR Historical society) have been discussing the central Croydon branch.
Superb video, thanks! And I'm pleased to hear the name Katherine Street - I found it on an old map and updated the appropriate references with evidence. Sharing is caring. :-) As to Croydon Central, I think it was always doomed to fail because you had to change trains for what is a very short journey. Frankly, the moment that happens you're better off observing the hierarchy of transport - and stepping onto a tram, trolleybus or bus. It's too expensive to run a train for the potential traffic volumes, so you may as well use something that's cheaper and more flexible, as well as able to go further afield. The Tramlink now links East and West Croydon stations, and is the right solution. Croydon Central should remain a footnote in history.
But its still a kind of separate fare for the tram (though rail workers still have priv rights over it !!) and then go to catch a train to gatwick or wherever
@@highpath4776 That's true. I buy a Zones 1-4 Travelcard so have the luxury of not caring about most fares, so in this case my problem would be the fare to Croydon! But I live in Beckenham, so I could just take the tram from there (assuming no engineering works!). But yes, I'd completely forgotten about fares - Oyster makes it easier, but it's still an issue.
@@highpath4776 Where are you coming from? If you are coming from the Town Hall even with a case it's an easy walk. They used to let you use the Croydon loop for free, don't know if that's still the case.
@@Muswell Oh,is that why? It's always amazed me that so much of South London doesn't have a Tube station. I thought they only needed to extend the Victoria line from Brixton or the Northern Line from Morden (ironically the most southerly stop on the Tube Map?)
@@rjjcms1 I think that might only be a part of the answer. Apparently, when the underground lines were first built, the South London tram service was so good that the underground didn't think it was worthwhile to compete. That, plus the cost...
Until it was closed by the Pandemic I used to work part time as a projectionist at the David Lean Cinema which is in part of the old library, on the site of the station. Part of the line survived the closure of the station, but no longer extended under the main road to the station site; I think this was until sometime before the Second World War. It is shown on old maps, and seems to have served a gravel pit close to where the college is now. When the Queen’s Gardens are open if you walk from the Town hall end the old retaining wall will be on your left, with Katharine Street above. Just before you reach the end of the Gardens there is a metal plaque on the wall about the railway and station, but it’s sometimes hidden by vegetation. Beyond the plaque the wall turns through 90 degrees to block the path of the railway, but here is an opening in this section which is a subway under the road to the Fairfield Halls. This section was obviously built after the railway closed, and it can be seen that the bricks are slightly different.
Born and bred in Croydon and I never knew that! Very interesting, and Queens Gardens are still closed due to being used to store building materials for the four blocks of flats being built just behind. Croydon has changed so much, it's called progress but I'm not so sure!
Good vid Jago but, arguably, you missed out two more stations that Croydon once had. I am trying not to go on and on about it but everyone forgets the Surrey Iron Railway (and the Croydon, Merstham and Godstone Railway). The SIR had a station of sorts somewhere near Reeves Corner tram stop. The line headed west to Wandsworth via Carshalton and south to Merstham. There was a spur that ran up (what is now) Tamworth Road to end near the terminus of the Croydon Canal. The canal ended in a "basin" where the platforms of West Croydon Station are now. All of this before any other Croydon railways were even thought about. PS: West Croydon opened first in June 1839 followed by East Croydon in July 1841. Until 1846 they were both called "Croydon". South Croydon opened in September 1865.
Where the council (well veolia) waste facilities are, was that part of the SIR route and stationing . I note one of the old croydon tram system depots is opposite it.
Thumbs up for mentioning the SIR, but I would not describe it as going west via Carshalton. It went North-West from Croydon via Mitcham and its trackbed to Mitcham was later used by the LBSC for their WImbledon branch and is used today by Tramlink. Mitcham Station has thus been a station since 1803, originally goods only and with some periods of closure .
@@dukenukem5768 indeed, this is the reason why there is a road by Mitcham tramstop called "Tramway Path"- it pre-dates Tramlink's presence by more than a century!
@@peeky44 I grew up a stone's throw from Mitcham Station. I was told it was the oldest railway station in the world, which is almost true. There is an old plan that shows the SIR Mitcham Station (goods only) in the same place as the present Tramlink stop, on the Tramway Path side, and a little east of the LBSC/BR station. The SIR had a level crossing here with the London Road.
@@highpath4776 The route of the SIR line followed (modern) Factory Lane and Enterprise Close before reaching the site of the old Waddon Marsh station (not today's tram stop). From there on the trackbed is re-used by the trams until a point beyond Mitcham Station.
@@ShedTV A lot of towns have fairfields. They are fields where you hold fairs. I guess they decided they could do without one in Croydon, but other towns have kept them (like Kingston where I live now).
I was born in Addiscombe, Croydon in 1953 - it was part of Surrey, George St was cobbled & it was a nice town to live in. I lived there until 1971 when I went off to Uni. & nothing would get me back there except for visiting my parents until they died. It's a ghastly violent place now.
I was born in East Croydon in 1955 and still live in Addiscombe. I seem to have managed to avoid all this "ghastly violence" somehow. Croydon is no worse than other parts of London. It has its rough areas and its better areas same as everywhere else. The town centre is looking very tired at the moment but that's largely due to a useless council who've gone bankrupt whilst launching war on anyone with the nerve to own a car, thus deterring anyone with any spending power to venture in. Even I go to Bromley or Bluewater to shop and I am just a ten minute walk from Croydon town centre.
It was part of Surrey in the eyes of the Post Office who insisted that the county be included in the address, but Croydon had never been part of the Surrey Councy Council area. Croydon was the big place in Surrey - mainly because of its geography and its historic importance because of its connections with the Archbishops. When the Local Government Act, 1888 was brought into effect on 1st April 1889, we first saw the county of London (there was never a county of London before that, excepting the fact that the City of London also has county status), we first saw the creation of a new form of local government, the county council. Surrey county council began its life on 1st April 1889. Another form of local adminsitration was also created by the same Act, the County Borough. Croydon became a county borough on 1st April 1889, and from that day enjoyed the status of a borough (historically a local area abl to return a member to Parliament) and, simultaneously, the status of a county. Prior to the 1888 Act Croydon was different. The reason was because the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury was the Lord of the Manor and ecclesiastically Croydon was a peculiar of Canterbury. The Archbishop throughout the middle ages was always a significant political as well as religious figure. His land-holdings were extensive and he had Palaces situated throughout his province. The one closest to the King's central power house in Westminster, Greenwich, Richmond or Windsor was Lambeth, but many Archbishops felt that they were too close to the king there, and may be accessed by him all too easily. Knole, another Palace in Kent was too far from London - but just like in the three bears, Croydon was just right. Far enough from the king to be less accessible, yet close enough to get to him quickly should that be required. We all know these days that the last of the Archbishops of the Tudor period and the one to crown James Stuart of Scotland, was John Whitgift. What many in Croydon may not realise is that the 1596 foundation bearing his name was settled in Croydon because he preferred to be in the town, but was set up to house the poor elderly and to ediucate the poor boys of the two parishes of Lambeth and Croydon in perpetuity. A later Act of Parliament changed the focus of the school to be more aligned with those who were far from poor and often with social rank, and not necessarily anything to do with either parish. Even Surrey Street market owes its existence to an Archbishop. Markets and fairs were not allowed without a Charter or Licence, usually issued by the sovereign. The rank of Archbishop, being second in order of precedence after the king, was able to issue charters to those places under his control. In 1276 by Archbishop Robert Kilwardby. Further charters were granted by later Archbishops.
My birth town. Thanks for another thoroughly entertaining and informative video. I’ve maintained for years that Croydon would have been a great place for the underground to reach, given for example that we have Amersham to the North west and Epping to the east which are further from C London. Incidentally. I visited Roding Valley this morning.
@@michellebell5092 Amersham has Chiltern Railways to Marylebone, (the route extends to Aylesbury Vale Parkway station on the far side of Aylesbury) running diesel units (I think Class 165s, but I am far from an expert) as well as the Metropolitan line to Aldgate. It is theoretically possible to go from Amersham to Aylesbury, change trains for Princes Risborough or High Wycombe, then change trains for Birmingham, without using the Tube network or going into London at all. Aylesbury used to be on the Metropolitan Railway, but when they electrified, they only went as far as Amersham. The platforms at Amersham (and tracks) are the same, so if going beyond Amersham just wait for the train shaped one, and if going into London, get on the Tube shaped one or the train shaped one depending on whether you want Metropolitan or Chilterns.
The creation of 'New Croydon' Station was a device to enable the LB&SCR to get out of an agreement with the SER and offer cheaper fares into London -see the Wikipedia article on East Croydon.
Thank you for providing an insight to Croydon. I currently work in its libraries, and occasionally work in the Civic building. I did not know the original site was a railway station. I'll pass the information onto my colleagues. 🙂
I may have mentioned this before (but its the only Victoria Station fact I know, so I like to use it). In "The Importance of Being Earnest' when our eponymous hero mentions he was found "in a handbag!" at Victoria, he is quick to clarify that it was on "The Brighton Line". That was to emphasise his credentials as that's the posh branch; and that it wasn't the common as muck LC&D Railway.
4:56 Had to go look this up, just in case my eyes were deceiving me: a 0-6-0T running as a 2-4-0T. Apparently it's a GER Class E22 and interestingly both them and a similar later batch B32 would quite often run with the leading coupling rods removed, at least under the GER, apparently the LNER largely didn't bother. Curiously they also apparently trailed them running with the trailing rods removed as 0-4-2Ts but it seems that was less successful as they stopped fairly quickly.
As part of the proposed redevelopment of East Croydon station, there was a small campaign a few years ago to rename East Croydon as Croydon Central. There are some photos from the 1950's showing the old goods yard on the line to Croydon Central. The former through lines are easily identifiable as they are cut off in their prime just before Park Lane.
East Croydon Station is, indeed, separate, and well away, from the town centre. For that matter, West Croydon Station is, too, but at least it is on the main London-Brighton road. South Croydon is really a separate place altogether. West Croydon is a misnomer in any event. It would be more accurately called Croydon North. I went to school in South Croydon, and I know whereof I speak. Somebody elsewhere refers to East Croydon as a “terminus”. It isn't. It is a place that you travel through, or, perhaps, interchange at, but you do not get off there, unless you are one of the commuters from the formerly prosperous inner eastern suburbs of Croydon for whom (alone) the station is quite well-placed. Partly because the station is so badly located, Croydon always has been a bus (or tram) town. The buses or trams actually took you close to where you wanted to go, and provided a frequent service. Trains did not. Nobody wants to go to East Croydon, apart from visitors to the Fairfield Halls or Croydon College (as was). As for the frequent comments that Croydon is a place best avoided, this started to become true only from 1965, when Croydon was incorporated in Greater London. The rot set in then, and has worsened. Things can only become better when Croydon is returned to its former status as the principal town of North East Surrey, and given its justified independence from London, as a city in its own right.
I think Jay Foreman needs to start a series on Unfinished Croydon. The M23, nope, The replacement for the Arndale Centre , oops. The full extend of the Tramway to the workplaces in New Addington - Oh, run out of money again. At least the Fairfield Halls have been refurbished.
I fear the rot set in before the GLC. The Croydon Corporation Acts precede the GLC: they gave the Council the compulsory purchase powers which were used in much of the old centre of the town. And though I can’t prove it I suspect the Whitgift Estate (Trinity School) and Croydon High School for Girls were happy to move out of what is now the Whitgift Centre and the Lunar House sites respectively.
@@robertbutlin3708 There is much truth in what you say. The old Croydon Corporation was indeed to blame for a great deal of destruction in the early 1960s, in a misguided attempt at “modernization”, notably the introduction of dual carriageways in the town centre, including the flyover and underpass. This adversely affected the town centre's integrity, and, perhaps ironically, cut off East Croydon station and the new Fairfield Halls from the town centre for pedestrians. The Whitgift Foundation was hand-in-glove with the Council (Ald. Marshall being the Chairman of the Foundation as well as a Council big-wig). The Foundation is the principal landowner in Croydon and certainly had its eyes on the money when it came to selling the old School site. It still is, because that site was only sold on a 99-year lease, so it actually reverts to the Foundation in a little over 40 years! Word at school was that the ground rent they were raking in would itself comfortably pay the salaries of all the staff at one of their schools. I have no doubt they will screw every penny out of any re-development of the old Whitgift Centre, and still hang on to the land in the long term. When I went to Whitgift School (1963-1970) the fees per annum were around £150. Now they are a little over £21.200. Purely allowing for inflation, they should be £2,900, so they have gone up a little more than seven times the rate of inflation. What on earth are these people doing with all their money? Answer: making the Foundation richer with it, and bugger the consequences.
@@robertbutlin3708 To put the fees level on another basis, in the late 1960s, £150 was about 10% of average household disposable income. Currently, £21,200 is about 70% of average household disposable income. Again, the magic multiple of seven times what you might reasonably expect. Over a period of 50 years, the position has moved from one where ordinary families could afford to sacrifice their general living standard to send one, or even two, sons there, to one where it is simply out of the question.
Croydon is an old stomping ground go mine so this video is of particular interest. I seem to remember ( I may be totally wrong) that there are some original tracks from the Surrey Iron Railway outside the Town Hall.
There was definitely a display of Surrey Iron Railway tracks somewhere in Croydon when I last worked there in the early 1970s, but I just cannot remember where?
@@BulldogBill From a very faint memory, I think there are some in the park that is west and beside the Brighton Road in Purley, between what used to be the VW building (may still well be) and Purley centre. Think that's right - but possibly not! I moved from Croydon 30 years ago - to Birmingham!!
There is (or was) a short length of Surrey Iron Railway track in Wallington Town Hall gardens. I used to walk past it on the way to school up till about 1970.
@@DrivermanO When I was living in The area [ born in Redhill General Hospital in 1944] in the 50s there was a short section by the road above The Railway Cutting on the old A23 in Merstham close to a large pub.
@@DrivermanO correct memory about the features, wrong railway identified. That was the 1803 Croydon, Godstone and Merstham Iron Railway. It's route was the reason for the wide flat gardens along the Brighton Road at Purley, and also for the existence of Church Road in Croydon, this was the route just before it arrived at its junction. The junction was shared with that of the Surrey Iron Railway and they met at the lower basin of the Croydon Canal at their main wharf (what we would today call West Croydon station).
A terrific effort to make Croydon interesting. Bravo sir 🎩 I had heard of the station but never really knew much about it so thank you for filling a gap 🤔 Have a splendid weekend Jago 👍🍻🍀
I believe there was recently a healthy discussion in Council quarters to rename East Croydon as Croydon Central, but I don't think the Rail company is much in favour.
Not to my knowledge (not that I know everything), last I heard they wanted to rename East and West Croydon to Croydon East and Croydon West because a lot of people don't realise they are walking distance from each other when planning commutes.
I was born in the south of Italy (Naples). Lived in Rome for 22 years. Then the Lord brought me to Croydon more then 40 years ago; and I am still very happy!😊
Croydon has 3 stations, with West Croydon being part of the London Overground. If they did finally extend any Underground lines, it would probably end up at East Croydon (again). East Croydon is basically the Major Terminus of the area.
Central Croydon really has two; South Croydon serves a suburban neighbourhood. East is for the fast trains from London to the coast and West is for the suburban trains that serve Sutton and the slow lines north of Norwood Junction, as well as the London Overground.
As an ex-Croydonian in Hove and a wannabe train geek I found this absolutely fascinating! I will now probably binge-watch your channel to destruction as is my wont.
2:08 It is actually common in Japan for some companies to name their part of a certain well-established station as "New", just because their platforms come a bit later. Meitetsu (Nagoya Railway) in Central Japan (central in the sense of between Tokyo and Osaka) is probably the most prominent offender in my mind, with their central, flagship Nagoya station having the name "New Nagoya" for many years before changing it to a more sensible "Meitetsu Nagoya" (although as I said, "Meitetsu" itself actually means "Nagoya Railway", so the name becomes the mouthful "Nagoya Railway's Nagoya Station"), and at least 11 of their stations are of this kind. Other "New" stations they have include "New-Uruma" to the north, "New-Kani" to the north-east, "New Kiyosu" to the west, "New Anjō" to the south, etc. Most of them are built next door to JR (National Japanese Railway) stations, merely a decade or two later than their older counterparts, with some pairs being centenarians on _both_ sides.
I can never hear about Croydon without thinking of the first context I ever saw it in, which was _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy._ "What do you mean you've met him before? This is Zaphod Beeblebrox, the President of the Galaxy, we're talking about, not bloody Martin Smith from Croydon."
@@JagoHazzard I've kept it simple because I can't remember where I found the details...but it's the usual story of railway companies squabbling like 8-year-olds.
That is correct, it had a separate booking hall, and as late as the 1960's the telephone kiosks used to say inside "This telephone is at New Croydon Booking Hall" in spite of the fact that it had long ceased to be a booking hall, and the platforms had become Nos. 1 & 2 of East Croydon Station.
@@stephenphillip5656 LOTS of wreckage. LOTS of damage. LOTS of 'Everything.' Tornados have touched down in South Jersey(NJ)and did considerable damage. The local Streams & the Delaware River haven't been this 'Bad' in 150/60 years according to the "News"(is THAT what they call it these days??). Still LOTS of wreckage all up and down the Eastern Seaboard. Some damage up in Newtown from what some of the Neighbors have been telling me. I'm up in Warrington myself. Not far from Newtown.
So you have finally made it to Croydon. There is a wealth of railway history around here, the atmospheric railway and old canal, the huge goods yard north of the two stations and a little further north the old line to Crystal Palace High Level. There is supposed to be an underground atmospheric railway in Crystal Palace Park of which there is now no trace. To the south there was the network of railway serving the power station at Waddon Marsh.
Good vid Jago. Talking about the LBSCR, do you have any info on its fairly unique 6.7KV 25 Hz AC electrification, which I believe lasted until 1929? I believe Morecambe had a similar arrangement.
@@tankmicr00man hi. i was only 8 years old then and we used to come up from eastbourne on the 6 pul to victoria, i do not remember seeing the goods yard
I'm slightly surprised that so few people seem to have heard of Croydon Central. I grew up in Coulsdon in the 1950s and was told about it by my mother, who was born in 1921, decades after it closed, which suggests that the memory of it lingered a long time after it was gone. If you're looking for further stories to tell in the Croydon area, how about the three stations of Coulsdon, especially Coulsdon North which had a chequered history? It changed its name three times, transitioned from overhead wires to third rail, was the location of a fatal accident, was eventually closed as being redundant, and suffered the final ignominy of being obliterated by a bypass road.
Hey, Jago... As a Croydonian, I loved this video. East Croydon, in my opinion, should be renamed "Croydon" as it is literally near the central location, and it would possibly avoid confusion on which station out of the three is the most convenient stop. Thank you and a thumbs up. T
Jago, I'm still a rail noob, could you tell me what those little rounded door or passage looking things are in the brick walls along the tracks in some places. Many are passed from 6:46 through 7:20. Decoration? Do they (or did they) go somewhere? Is it drainage for the soil above? Is it a place for track workers to get out of the way of trains? Are they passages to Narnia? I see them a lot in your videos and I always wonder. Anyway, thanks for another fun video.
My parents told me they're places for track workers to get out of the way of trains. I recall being disappointed. I'd never heard of Narnia, but really hoped they were secret passages anyway.
@@eekee6034 Being arched they actually add strength to the wall effectively the sides butress and the arch distributes weight, if the walls were just straight (though some cuttings are) eventually side pressure can cause them to give way.
a video about Spencer Holt/Halt on the line that the Croydon Tramway took over in parts, circa 2000? I believe it went out to Oxted/somewhere in the North Downs of Surrey? Great video as always by the way!
As you said West Croydon, South Croydon and East Croydon. What about North Croydon. Was there a railway station called North Croydon. And to the north is Norwood Junction which could of been North Croydon. Plus London Overground could extend from Norwood Junction to East Croydon.
There were other stations to the north closer than Norwood - what about Selhurst for example. The old County Borough had a couple of dozen stations to choose from!
Central Croydon station was an operational convenience. Trains were all steam hauled in that era. So local trains from London or even the through LNWR service via the West London line, could keep the through station at East Croydon clear and run on into Central Croydon Terminus where they could then run around their trains unhindered. When Central Croydon closed the inconvenience of running locos around their trains in the through station at East Croydon caused problems. So South Croydon station had to have two bay platforms on the Up side added, to cater for these operational difficulties. The Bays at South Croydon are probably still visible. The tracks were however removed soon after the LB&SCR/SR electrified to Coulsdon North (itself now vanished), and the problems of running steam locos around their trains ceased.
I know this sounds a bit like playing Mornington Crescent, but Brixton to Croydon is a bit of a haul without any intermediate stops. If the Victoria Line ever did end up going to Croydon, how about this (barring geological problems) as being a good set of intermediate stations? Tulse Hill Norwood Thornton Heath?
Streatham . Crystal Palace - but by different routes to the surface national rail. I wonder if a station under Gypsy Hill would have vied with Hampstead for being the deepest Tube platforms ?
It could come back if the Bakerloo line extension from Elephant & Castle to East Croydon ever gets the green light,same for the Victoria line Brixton to Herne Hill.
The Bakerloo wouldn’t go to Croydon. First phase is Lewisham, second looks likely to take over the Catford Bridge line including both the Hayes branch and curve to Beckenham Junction. More likely to continue to Bromley than Croydon The Victoria Line however was long mooted to continue to Croydon. It would make a lot of sense, I hope this is the next extension after the Bakerloo, since I doubt it would happen before. The Herne Hill loop seems pointless, I hope that stupid proposal never happens
@@ChilternTransportProductions The Victoria Line is rammed already, if it went any further south then people in Brixton and Stockwell wouldn't be able to get on!
@@ChilternTransportProductions It is not i who mooted the Bakerloo proposed extension to Croydon,see TFL proposed extensions.As for the Victoria line only Herne Hill proposed extension in the south direction from Brixton was mentioned and possible extension in the north from Walthamstow to Leytonstone on the central line intechange.
Jago. You should compile something about Turnham Green Station. It's only two minutes from my dwelling and I'd happily welcome you for partaking in a cup of Earl Grey? Let me know. Bye.
@@wickermanout It was meant in jest. I suppose it's not as grimy as some parts of Hackney or Dulwich were when I lived in London, and I grew up in 70s Tottenham!
@@onbedoeldekut1515 I used to live in Tottenham briefly in the late '80s. Hmm. "Exciting", but not always in a good way. I've driven through Croydon quite a few times in the early-mid '90s, on the way to Coulsdon, and on the way to Brighton. But I think my only trip TO Croydon was a rather depressing one to the immigration office nearly 20 years ago.
I worked in Croydon for 7 years, saw them finish building the tram line and had lots of fun riding on it. Overall Croydon wasn't a bad place to work, it had lots of shops, and was certainly a nicer place than Shepherds Bush where I worked before. I always meant to go out and see if I could find the site of Central Croydon station, but never got around to it so I was particularly interested in this video.
Hi Jago, "The Fairfield Halls" now occupies the site of Central Croydon Station, that is according to the Late John Huntley, who had hosted railway subject film shows therein, enthusiastically patronized by myself and my grandfather of whom had begun working for the L.B.S.C.R at Anerley Station in 1918
Fairfield halls is what is says it is, it was a gigantic field which backed onto the station, in one of my books ob croydon there is a arial view of the line coming out of thet station curving round and connecting to east croydon. If you go into queeens gardens the footpath which runs under Welsley Road is basically the line of the track. Before they started to redo the gardens in the wall their use to be the old waiting area. The other original feature is the iron railings which run along the retaining wal at the top. Croydon from above 1870 to 1999 on page 26 has a photo of the area showing the tracks still in place.
The bit of Queen's Gardens that's just outside the former Taberner House is quite nice; the bit where the old station approach was is secluded and a bit dingy and the only reason most people used it was to get to the subway through to the Fairfield Halls the other side of the main road. I always thought it was ideally situated as a terminus for the SER line that terminated at Addiscombe (now removed as the trams used most of the line and took the old Bingham Road route rather than Addiscombe); that would mean direct trains to places like Lewisham which might be quite useful as the only rail route there now involves a change at London Bridge. As far as the London Bridge v Victoria situation goes, my understanding is that the LB&SCR would have built the line to Victoria to have a station convenient for the West End; the two operators who served Kent also had City and West End termini (Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Victoria). It was certainly not more convenient for the City than London Bridge was; that required only a short walk or bus or cab ride across the river to get to the City.
Proper Croydonians pronounce Katharine St with a long “I”. Really proper Croydonians pronounce is Caf-a-rine St still with a long”i”. And it’s not strictly the current town hall, in fact it’s the second one. The current one Bernard Weatherill House, is actually the fourth one.
With the amount of subtle sarcasm going on in this video, somehow I was anticipating "Here's the clock tower from the town hall" (2:48) to be leading up to something like "...and here's a view of marble arch from the adjacent hill - but I digress".
My parents always said to me growing up that there eas always plans to build an underground extension to Croydon it would of been interesting if it had been built i honestly don't think the trams would of been running today amd Croydon would look so much different to now
I just got the Southern Line DLC for Train Simulator so I see that you are clearly rooting through my Steam purchases for your video subjects. Shame Jago! That said, I take it that, despite all the stations around it, actually stopping in Croydon itself is not a good idea.
I wish to learn more about the mystical magical world of Croydon
not magical at all - coming from a 14 year old 💀💀
More Croydon!!
A sunny corner of Croydon preferably?
@@anthonydefreitas6006 As a resident of Croydon, I haven't seen one of those yet
Croydon Common?
New Croydon?
Old Croydon?
Croydon Town?
Croydon Central?
Croydon West?
Croydon East?
Croydon South?
Croydon North?
Croydon Westfield! Oh no, hang on...
@@AndrewG1989 stop your hurting my head😒😒
Those gardens have been closed since before I moved out this year, in January.... when I was living there and during lockdown I would walk to South Croydon and keep going to some of the commons, where the golf course is. Not far from some of your shots, maybe a 15 min walk, there's Spencer Road Halt Station, an abandoned station off South Croydon. You can see the old tracks and bits and bobs of the old platform.
used to call it The Town Hall Gardens, lovely garden in the middle of Croydon
With Croydon Council now essentially bankrupt, you'll be waiting some time before those gardens are open and back to their original splendour.
I noticed that last year, remembered when I was a kid loads of green spaces like queen's gardens, Ashcroft theatre gardens and green space outside college campus, now all boarded up and building sites(sigh!) Now writing from 50 shades of green in Ireland 😁
In what is now the London Borough there were, in the days of steam, no fewer than 27 railway stations, and that does not take into consideration that such things as Church Road, Tamworth Road and the wide front gardens of the Brighton Road at Purley are legacies of the horse drawn public railways that predated the steam age.
East Croydon is clearly central enough and always has been, it's bizarre why they thought another station was needed! Tramlink has ended up serving the centre of Croydon anyway
Unless you walk down I think Market Street I find Old Town and The Town Hall a little awkward to find at ground level. except when I dont need to be there and the buses get diverted.
In fact before Tramlink opened and they hadn't yet decided on all the stop names, what ended up being called "George St" stop was provisionally named "Croydon Central" in several maps. It's not on the same site as the old railway station, being one road further to the north, but clearly it must have been seriously considered.
In the end, we ended up with another stop (opened much later) taking the name "Centrale", which would habe been pretty confusing if "Croydon Central" had also been on the system.
And the Centrale stop was originally called Tamworth Road. It changed when the Drummond Centre was expanded and renamed.
It's possible that what is regarded as central Croydon has moved a bit northwards since this station was built. The town hall is there now but that's actually the southern end of the town centre which extends about half a mile north from there, ending at West Croydon station.
@@IndigoJo interesting. I knew Tamworth Road was the proposed name for what became Centrale, but I had always thought that in the same way as Croydon Central became George Street that the name change happened before the stop actually opened to passengers... It can't have been called "Tamworth Road" for very long then?
@@peeky44 For about three to four years, between when the line opened and when Centrale opened.
Thanks Jago, as an ex Croydon boy (well Purley) now living in Southern Italy this was truly an education.
As an ex-Croydon boy (Norbury) now living in New Zealand, this was very interesting.
@@Coltnz1 Everyone tries to get as far away as possible, don't they?
@@heyokaikaggen6288 Yep!
Well, I was born in the south of Italy (Naples) and the Lord has brought me to Croydon more then 40 years. And I am still very happy!
Croydon gets a bad press, but I enjoyed living there and attending the Art College in the '90s. I worked at the Fairfield Halls and drank in the town centre pubs. There were no trams them and East Croydon station was just reopening after renovation. I had no idea about the lost station, although there was another now-closed station close to where I lived on Lower Addiscombe Road.
I used to like Croydon in the 90s, but go there now. You'll need a stab proof jacket and not wear anything worth more than a tenner.
Would that be Woodside station?
There's so many old lost closed stations out there, it's almost hard to keep track of them all sometimes..!
@@dylvasey what utter bollocks
@@dylvasey You’re really selling it!
@@HaydenPK Since I wrote that comment earlier I rewatched JH’s video about Hayes and Addiscombe and their part in the Jubilee Line story. The station I remember is Addiscombe, but the video shows Woodside too.
I worked in Croydon for about 9 months in the "50p building". Had a great view of the skyline (haha) and the station. I've walked all over that area many times and had no idea there used to be a station there! Yet again, Jago giving me history lessons I didn't know I was missing!
When that 50p building you worked in was being built in the 60s we used to call it the threepenny bit building
Interesting fact: Croydon Minster was designed by George Gilbert Scott who also designed St Pancas.... Ok, he was prolific and designed about 10,000 buildings so anywhere could probably say the same. I'm trying Croydon, I'm trying.
His main bread & butter early in his career was workhouses.
Designed St Mary's Cathedral here in Edinburgh - his son did the red telephone boxes and Battersea power station, but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already know that :)
Bugger. I just noticed my typo!
These comments are as educational as the video. Thank you everyone.
@@TheFrogfather1 Grandson
I used to take the Croydon station every day but this was Croydon Pennsylvania and the station of Philadelphia. As an American it's always amazing how many things we just named after England and Scotland
That's because the people who originally settled in those areas named them for the places they'd emigrated from.
Where I grew up, in the Greater Toronto Area, in Canada, many places are named after towns in northern England (York, Scarborough, Pickering Whitby, Peterborough...), because that's where their early settlers came from.
In Canada the British settlers went all-out. Not only do we have a London, Ontario and Stratford, Ontario, but the river running through London is named The Thames, and the river through Stratford is named The Avon. So our Stratford is upon Avon too!
@@OntarioTrafficMan Only today, I heard mention of a US town called Radnor, named after a town in mid-Wales.
@@OntarioTrafficMan
The first I heard of Stratford, Ontario was when it’s most famous resident was going to switch on the Christmas lights at the Westfield shopping centre in Stratford, London. Thankfully I wasn’t there at the time.
Some of the Diesel locomotives used in the UK were built in London, Ontario.
When our new Elizabeth Line finally opens, more than three years late, it will come to the surface at Stratford, the one where Mr. Bieber had switched on the Christmas lights. The next station down the line, only about one kilometre away, is called Maryland after the area it is situated in, which in turn was unusually named after the one in the US.
I live in Croydon, England, but made a point of passing through Croydon, PA when I was over there. I was staying close to the Journal Square PATH station, so I took PATH to Newark, NJ Transit train to Trenton, River Line to Camden - presumably named after the one in London - PATCO high speed line over the bridge to Philadelphia, SEPTA via Croydon to Trenton I think, and then back the way I came. Seeing the River Line was the main reason for my visit; this was just a few days after it opened.
You didn't name them after our towns and cities. We named them after the places the people who started your country came from. Short memory there bud.
Did I hear you describe Croydon (or some part of it) as, "far out'? As in "Far out, man", a phrase much beloved back in the 1970. Good Gracious! That's half a decade ago! Where has the time gone. I must be off and about my business. Thanks, Mr H. Superb, as always. Simon T
Half a century, not decade.
@@mirzaahmed6589 Indeed. Just goes to show how time flies. (Time flies? You can't, they go too fast) Simon T
@@Bunter.948 Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
@@henrybest4057 That is no doubt true, and I'm sure that in saying it we are making an invaluable contribution to Mr H's original post. Hmmm - that could be a fence - some of those are Post and Rail. Oh dear. Simon T
that's heavy man
Well, I thought I was pretty good on UK railways, but I'd never heard of the Central Croydon line - thank you for filling that Croydon-shaped gap in my knowledge.
The one thing about Croydon is there is a lot of civic pride. You will have more comments on this video than you've had on any video this year, purely because of your inadvertent summoning of Croydonites past and present
why dies Croydonites sound like a name of a stone or mineral in alien planet
I grew up there and every so often the Croydon Advertiser would print a front-page story about how Croydon was this wonderful place and the following week there would be letters saying it was a dump.
Nah, all true Croyonians are far too busy with the knife fights etc to have time to respond.
I'm not from croydon butyoure gonna have more people from near Croydon like me than actual Croydon
South london gets so little attention to any suburb remotely near our neighbourhood which gets exposure is greeted like the second coming
Hahaha! So true but it's Croydonians, not even joking.
I think Croydon Central could still work! But only as a tube station with a frequent cross London service though. Quite obviously this would be in the form of the Victoria Line, which you mentioned. It was never going to work as a branch line terminus for a mainline company connecting to central London
Couple up the tube connections across London with better access into both central London and central Croydon without the need to wait long or faff about on the “last mile” legs, and it could be a popular station!
Yeah I think Croydon would really work as an extension of the Victoria Line, it would take a lot of pressure off of the mainline into Victoria itself as well. It's not going to happen though as the tube only gets extended for expensive new developments now, ordinary people aren't worth the effort.
@@chrisfry8244 Woah! Who said there won’t be new developments in or around Croydon in the future? 👀
Besides, relieving the mainlines as well as serving areas with poor access to public transport is still an official argument used by TfL to build extensions, as is the case with the Bakerloo Extension to Lewisham along the Old Kent Road. But it probably does need some sort of development to push it to actually happen
Noooooooo you clearly don't live in Croydon to think that. It's completely unnecessary, especially as that area can be easily accessed by tram.
@@chrisfry8244 Noooooo why? The overground comes to West Croydon and East Croydon has numerous fast trains from Victoria which go to Gatwick Airport so technically we already have a V line extension that is faster than putting in a V line extension.
My Dad’s commute used to involve changing trains at East Croydon, and as I’m a child of the 1980s he would take me to work on my schools inset training days. So I still associate East Croydon with extra days off school!
This is only right, school is anathema to any true Croydonian.
@@heyokaikaggen6288 lol!!
I had a school-friend who was born in Croydon. He hated it when I called him a Cockney. We went to school in Dorset, so anyone born within a hundred miles of London was a Cockney as far as I was concerned!
I'm not sure why or how this was recommended to me, besides my location, however, you've answered a question that I've been regularly asking my family/friends since I was 10 years old. So thank you for finally putting a pin in that 17-year long mystery for me!
noted that Kathrine street had its own pronunciation,
another Croydon station to note is Waddon ( for Croydon airport ) as the sign used to say.
Another great video. I've written three (I think) histories of the Central Croydon station. The final closure suited the council, as they needed to widen the high street. The street was so narrow, the new tramway was single track. It helped them build a new town hall.
The LBSCR got to close the station, and obtained the Fairfield in the process.
Coincidentally, your video appears as members of the The Brighton Circle (LBSCR Historical society) have been discussing the central Croydon branch.
East Croydon is perfectly situated for the Easy Hotel where Frog & I stay when we're visiting London. Well, when there's not pandemic-ing going on.
Great work as usual Jago!
Superb video, thanks! And I'm pleased to hear the name Katherine Street - I found it on an old map and updated the appropriate references with evidence. Sharing is caring. :-)
As to Croydon Central, I think it was always doomed to fail because you had to change trains for what is a very short journey. Frankly, the moment that happens you're better off observing the hierarchy of transport - and stepping onto a tram, trolleybus or bus. It's too expensive to run a train for the potential traffic volumes, so you may as well use something that's cheaper and more flexible, as well as able to go further afield.
The Tramlink now links East and West Croydon stations, and is the right solution. Croydon Central should remain a footnote in history.
But its still a kind of separate fare for the tram (though rail workers still have priv rights over it !!) and then go to catch a train to gatwick or wherever
@@highpath4776 That's true. I buy a Zones 1-4 Travelcard so have the luxury of not caring about most fares, so in this case my problem would be the fare to Croydon! But I live in Beckenham, so I could just take the tram from there (assuming no engineering works!). But yes, I'd completely forgotten about fares - Oyster makes it easier, but it's still an issue.
Katharine Street, not Katherine Street.
@@jdb47games Damned autocorrect! I'll leave it as is though. Thanks for the correction!
@@highpath4776 Where are you coming from? If you are coming from the Town Hall even with a case it's an easy walk. They used to let you use the Croydon loop for free, don't know if that's still the case.
Loved the network map in the old tiles!
If old man Yerkes couldn’t get the underground to Croydon can anyone?
South of Brixton, the ground is too chalky & crumbly. It's all solid clay North of the Thames.
@@Muswell Oh,is that why? It's always amazed me that so much of South London doesn't have a Tube station. I thought they only needed to extend the Victoria line from Brixton or the Northern Line from Morden (ironically the most southerly stop on the Tube Map?)
@@rjjcms1 I think that might only be a part of the answer. Apparently, when the underground lines were first built, the South London tram service was so good that the underground didn't think it was worthwhile to compete. That, plus the cost...
Until it was closed by the Pandemic I used to work part time as a projectionist at the David Lean Cinema which is in part of the old library, on the site of the station. Part of the line survived the closure of the station, but no longer extended under the main road to the station site; I think this was until sometime before the Second World War. It is shown on old maps, and seems to have served a gravel pit close to where the college is now.
When the Queen’s Gardens are open if you walk from the Town hall end the old retaining wall will be on your left, with Katharine Street above. Just before you reach the end of the Gardens there is a metal plaque on the wall about the railway and station, but it’s sometimes hidden by vegetation. Beyond the plaque the wall turns through 90 degrees to block the path of the railway, but here is an opening in this section which is a subway under the road to the Fairfield Halls. This section was obviously built after the railway closed, and it can be seen that the bricks are slightly different.
David Lean, if a town's going to get only one famous film director, he's really not a bad choice...
@@heyokaikaggen6288
Croydon was a major centre of film production in the first decade or so of the twentieth century.
Born and bred in Croydon and I never knew that! Very interesting, and Queens Gardens are still closed due to being used to store building materials for the four blocks of flats being built just behind. Croydon has changed so much, it's called progress but I'm not so sure!
Good vid Jago but, arguably, you missed out two more stations that Croydon once had.
I am trying not to go on and on about it but everyone forgets the Surrey Iron Railway (and the Croydon, Merstham and Godstone Railway).
The SIR had a station of sorts somewhere near Reeves Corner tram stop. The line headed west to Wandsworth via Carshalton and south to Merstham. There was a spur that ran up (what is now) Tamworth Road to end near the terminus of the Croydon Canal. The canal ended in a "basin" where the platforms of West Croydon Station are now.
All of this before any other Croydon railways were even thought about.
PS: West Croydon opened first in June 1839 followed by East Croydon in July 1841. Until 1846 they were both called "Croydon". South Croydon opened in September 1865.
Where the council (well veolia) waste facilities are, was that part of the SIR route and stationing . I note one of the old croydon tram system depots is opposite it.
Thumbs up for mentioning the SIR, but I would not describe it as going west via Carshalton. It went North-West from Croydon via Mitcham and its trackbed to Mitcham was later used by the LBSC for their WImbledon branch and is used today by Tramlink. Mitcham Station has thus been a station since 1803, originally goods only and with some periods of closure .
@@dukenukem5768 indeed, this is the reason why there is a road by Mitcham tramstop called "Tramway Path"- it pre-dates Tramlink's presence by more than a century!
@@peeky44 I grew up a stone's throw from Mitcham Station. I was told it was the oldest railway station in the world, which is almost true. There is an old plan that shows the SIR Mitcham Station (goods only) in the same place as the present Tramlink stop, on the Tramway Path side, and a little east of the LBSC/BR station. The SIR had a level crossing here with the London Road.
@@highpath4776 The route of the SIR line followed (modern) Factory Lane and Enterprise Close before reaching the site of the old Waddon Marsh station (not today's tram stop). From there on the trackbed is re-used by the trams until a point beyond Mitcham Station.
Thank's Jago - I have been watching for awhile now, and really enjoy your videos - keep it up!
Fairfield Halls was so named because it is built on the site of Croydon Fair dating back.... quite a long time.
That’s just jogged a memory of my landlord, when I was student, a real old Croydon character, telling me about the ‘fair field’.
@@ShedTV A lot of towns have fairfields. They are fields where you hold fairs. I guess they decided they could do without one in Croydon, but other towns have kept them (like Kingston where I live now).
I was born in Addiscombe, Croydon in 1953 - it was part of Surrey, George St was cobbled & it was a nice town to live in. I lived there until 1971 when I went off to Uni. & nothing would get me back there except for visiting my parents until they died. It's a ghastly violent place now.
Having HM Immigration HQ there didn't help!
I was born in East Croydon in 1955 and still live in Addiscombe. I seem to have managed to avoid all this "ghastly violence" somehow. Croydon is no worse than other parts of London. It has its rough areas and its better areas same as everywhere else. The town centre is looking very tired at the moment but that's largely due to a useless council who've gone bankrupt whilst launching war on anyone with the nerve to own a car, thus deterring anyone with any spending power to venture in. Even I go to Bromley or Bluewater to shop and I am just a ten minute walk from Croydon town centre.
It was part of Surrey in the eyes of the Post Office who insisted that the county be included in the address, but Croydon had never been part of the Surrey Councy Council area. Croydon was the big place in Surrey - mainly because of its geography and its historic importance because of its connections with the Archbishops. When the Local Government Act, 1888 was brought into effect on 1st April 1889, we first saw the county of London (there was never a county of London before that, excepting the fact that the City of London also has county status), we first saw the creation of a new form of local government, the county council. Surrey county council began its life on 1st April 1889. Another form of local adminsitration was also created by the same Act, the County Borough. Croydon became a county borough on 1st April 1889, and from that day enjoyed the status of a borough (historically a local area abl to return a member to Parliament) and, simultaneously, the status of a county.
Prior to the 1888 Act Croydon was different. The reason was because the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury was the Lord of the Manor and ecclesiastically Croydon was a peculiar of Canterbury. The Archbishop throughout the middle ages was always a significant political as well as religious figure. His land-holdings were extensive and he had Palaces situated throughout his province. The one closest to the King's central power house in Westminster, Greenwich, Richmond or Windsor was Lambeth, but many Archbishops felt that they were too close to the king there, and may be accessed by him all too easily. Knole, another Palace in Kent was too far from London - but just like in the three bears, Croydon was just right. Far enough from the king to be less accessible, yet close enough to get to him quickly should that be required.
We all know these days that the last of the Archbishops of the Tudor period and the one to crown James Stuart of Scotland, was John Whitgift. What many in Croydon may not realise is that the 1596 foundation bearing his name was settled in Croydon because he preferred to be in the town, but was set up to house the poor elderly and to ediucate the poor boys of the two parishes of Lambeth and Croydon in perpetuity. A later Act of Parliament changed the focus of the school to be more aligned with those who were far from poor and often with social rank, and not necessarily anything to do with either parish.
Even Surrey Street market owes its existence to an Archbishop. Markets and fairs were not allowed without a Charter or Licence, usually issued by the sovereign. The rank of Archbishop, being second in order of precedence after the king, was able to issue charters to those places under his control. In 1276 by Archbishop Robert Kilwardby. Further charters were granted by later Archbishops.
My birth town. Thanks for another thoroughly entertaining and informative video. I’ve maintained for years that Croydon would have been a great place for the underground to reach, given for example that we have Amersham to the North west and Epping to the east which are further from C London. Incidentally. I visited Roding Valley this morning.
Actually forget those comments. Croydon does have great mainline railways of course whereas the others don’t .
@@michellebell5092 Amersham has Chiltern Railways to Marylebone, (the route extends to Aylesbury Vale Parkway station on the far side of Aylesbury) running diesel units (I think Class 165s, but I am far from an expert) as well as the Metropolitan line to Aldgate. It is theoretically possible to go from Amersham to Aylesbury, change trains for Princes Risborough or High Wycombe, then change trains for Birmingham, without using the Tube network or going into London at all. Aylesbury used to be on the Metropolitan Railway, but when they electrified, they only went as far as Amersham. The platforms at Amersham (and tracks) are the same, so if going beyond Amersham just wait for the train shaped one, and if going into London, get on the Tube shaped one or the train shaped one depending on whether you want Metropolitan or Chilterns.
Another excellent video, well done.
Excellent J this was the place of my birth and my home from 1953, thank you 🙏
Used to work near here early 74, great to see it again, like your commentaries, brings the places alive...keep waking
The creation of 'New Croydon' Station was a device to enable the LB&SCR to get out of an agreement with the SER and offer cheaper fares into London -see the Wikipedia article on East Croydon.
And now East Croydon is projected to be on the move again.
I have never heard of that station. I love the video and the commentary.
Most interesting. You learn something new every day!
Thank you for providing an insight to Croydon. I currently work in its libraries, and occasionally work in the Civic building. I did not know the original site was a railway station. I'll pass the information onto my colleagues. 🙂
I may have mentioned this before (but its the only Victoria Station fact I know, so I like to use it). In "The Importance of Being Earnest' when our eponymous hero mentions he was found "in a handbag!" at Victoria, he is quick to clarify that it was on "The Brighton Line". That was to emphasise his credentials as that's the posh branch; and that it wasn't the common as muck LC&D Railway.
I was born and brought up in Worthing, so this play always seemed associated!
Excellent as always Jago, well done.
Being born and bred in Croydon, loved this video and would love to watch more if there is more, thanks for showing this video of croydon
Fascinating film - thank you! (By the way, we were at RHUL together - good times!)
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Great historical narrative! Enjoyed the video itself too. Good quality visual.
4:56 Had to go look this up, just in case my eyes were deceiving me: a 0-6-0T running as a 2-4-0T. Apparently it's a GER Class E22 and interestingly both them and a similar later batch B32 would quite often run with the leading coupling rods removed, at least under the GER, apparently the LNER largely didn't bother. Curiously they also apparently trailed them running with the trailing rods removed as 0-4-2Ts but it seems that was less successful as they stopped fairly quickly.
Well spotted. Would it help on sharp bends? I can't think why else you would sacrifice traction.
If it still existed I could easily see it as the terminus of some overground or even thameslink route.
Sipping Irish cream and watching Jago videos... life is good. 🤗
Great video sir!
As part of the proposed redevelopment of East Croydon station, there was a small campaign a few years ago to rename East Croydon as Croydon Central.
There are some photos from the 1950's showing the old goods yard on the line to Croydon Central. The former through lines are easily identifiable as they are cut off in their prime just before Park Lane.
Good one in my school days I have used all three that is East , South and West Croydon
Wow thanks for journey round croydon fascinating stuff I was bought all round there spent lot time queens gardens didn't know history off station. 🤔👍
East Croydon Station is, indeed, separate, and well away, from the town centre. For that matter, West Croydon Station is, too, but at least it is on the main London-Brighton road. South Croydon is really a separate place altogether. West Croydon is a misnomer in any event. It would be more accurately called Croydon North. I went to school in South Croydon, and I know whereof I speak. Somebody elsewhere refers to East Croydon as a “terminus”. It isn't. It is a place that you travel through, or, perhaps, interchange at, but you do not get off there, unless you are one of the commuters from the formerly prosperous inner eastern suburbs of Croydon for whom (alone) the station is quite well-placed. Partly because the station is so badly located, Croydon always has been a bus (or tram) town. The buses or trams actually took you close to where you wanted to go, and provided a frequent service. Trains did not. Nobody wants to go to East Croydon, apart from visitors to the Fairfield Halls or Croydon College (as was).
As for the frequent comments that Croydon is a place best avoided, this started to become true only from 1965, when Croydon was incorporated in Greater London. The rot set in then, and has worsened. Things can only become better when Croydon is returned to its former status as the principal town of North East Surrey, and given its justified independence from London, as a city in its own right.
I think Jay Foreman needs to start a series on Unfinished Croydon. The M23, nope, The replacement for the Arndale Centre , oops. The full extend of the Tramway to the workplaces in New Addington - Oh, run out of money again. At least the Fairfield Halls have been refurbished.
I fear the rot set in before the GLC. The Croydon Corporation Acts precede the GLC: they gave the Council the compulsory purchase powers which were used in much of the old centre of the town. And though I can’t prove it I suspect the Whitgift Estate (Trinity School) and Croydon High School for Girls were happy to move out of what is now the Whitgift Centre and the Lunar House sites respectively.
@@robertbutlin3708 There is much truth in what you say. The old Croydon Corporation was indeed to blame for a great deal of destruction in the early 1960s, in a misguided attempt at “modernization”, notably the introduction of dual carriageways in the town centre, including the flyover and underpass. This adversely affected the town centre's integrity, and, perhaps ironically, cut off East Croydon station and the new Fairfield Halls from the town centre for pedestrians. The Whitgift Foundation was hand-in-glove with the Council (Ald. Marshall being the Chairman of the Foundation as well as a Council big-wig). The Foundation is the principal landowner in Croydon and certainly had its eyes on the money when it came to selling the old School site. It still is, because that site was only sold on a 99-year lease, so it actually reverts to the Foundation in a little over 40 years! Word at school was that the ground rent they were raking in would itself comfortably pay the salaries of all the staff at one of their schools. I have no doubt they will screw every penny out of any re-development of the old Whitgift Centre, and still hang on to the land in the long term. When I went to Whitgift School (1963-1970) the fees per annum were around £150. Now they are a little over £21.200. Purely allowing for inflation, they should be £2,900, so they have gone up a little more than seven times the rate of inflation. What on earth are these people doing with all their money? Answer: making the Foundation richer with it, and bugger the consequences.
@@allenwilliams1306 well said sir. I suspect all school fees have gone up by more than inflation but interesting to see actual figures.
@@robertbutlin3708 To put the fees level on another basis, in the late 1960s, £150 was about 10% of average household disposable income. Currently, £21,200 is about 70% of average household disposable income. Again, the magic multiple of seven times what you might reasonably expect. Over a period of 50 years, the position has moved from one where ordinary families could afford to sacrifice their general living standard to send one, or even two, sons there, to one where it is simply out of the question.
Croydon is an old stomping ground go mine so this video is of particular interest. I seem to remember ( I may be totally wrong) that there are some original tracks from the Surrey Iron Railway outside the Town Hall.
There was definitely a display of Surrey Iron Railway tracks somewhere in Croydon when I last worked there in the early 1970s, but I just cannot remember where?
@@BulldogBill From a very faint memory, I think there are some in the park that is west and beside the Brighton Road in Purley, between what used to be the VW building (may still well be) and Purley centre. Think that's right - but possibly not! I moved from Croydon 30 years ago - to Birmingham!!
There is (or was) a short length of Surrey Iron Railway track in Wallington Town Hall gardens. I used to walk past it on the way to school up till about 1970.
@@DrivermanO When I was living in The area [ born in Redhill General Hospital in 1944] in the 50s there was a short section by the road above The Railway Cutting on the old A23 in Merstham close to a large pub.
@@DrivermanO correct memory about the features, wrong railway identified. That was the 1803 Croydon, Godstone and Merstham Iron Railway. It's route was the reason for the wide flat gardens along the Brighton Road at Purley, and also for the existence of Church Road in Croydon, this was the route just before it arrived at its junction. The junction was shared with that of the Surrey Iron Railway and they met at the lower basin of the Croydon Canal at their main wharf (what we would today call West Croydon station).
A terrific effort to make Croydon interesting. Bravo sir 🎩
I had heard of the station but never really knew much about it so thank you for filling a gap 🤔
Have a splendid weekend Jago 👍🍻🍀
I believe there was recently a healthy discussion in Council quarters to rename East Croydon as Croydon Central, but I don't think the Rail company is much in favour.
Not to my knowledge (not that I know everything), last I heard they wanted to rename East and West Croydon to Croydon East and Croydon West because a lot of people don't realise they are walking distance from each other when planning commutes.
Top video, Wrighty!
I spent a week in Croydon one night.
I was born in the south of Italy (Naples). Lived in Rome for 22 years. Then the Lord brought me to Croydon more then 40 years ago; and I am still very happy!😊
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Croydon has 3 stations, with West Croydon being part of the London Overground. If they did finally extend any Underground lines, it would probably end up at East Croydon (again). East Croydon is basically the Major Terminus of the area.
Half the buses dont go accross Croydon now leaving an interchange or a tedious walk
Central Croydon really has two; South Croydon serves a suburban neighbourhood. East is for the fast trains from London to the coast and West is for the suburban trains that serve Sutton and the slow lines north of Norwood Junction, as well as the London Overground.
As an ex-Croydonian in Hove and a wannabe train geek I found this absolutely fascinating! I will now probably binge-watch your channel to destruction as is my wont.
PS I wish I had as interesting a name as "Jago Hazzard". Is it real or did you make it up? First class either way!
2:08 It is actually common in Japan for some companies to name their part of a certain well-established station as "New", just because their platforms come a bit later.
Meitetsu (Nagoya Railway) in Central Japan (central in the sense of between Tokyo and Osaka) is probably the most prominent offender in my mind, with their central, flagship Nagoya station having the name "New Nagoya" for many years before changing it to a more sensible "Meitetsu Nagoya" (although as I said, "Meitetsu" itself actually means "Nagoya Railway", so the name becomes the mouthful "Nagoya Railway's Nagoya Station"), and at least 11 of their stations are of this kind.
Other "New" stations they have include "New-Uruma" to the north, "New-Kani" to the north-east, "New Kiyosu" to the west, "New Anjō" to the south, etc. Most of them are built next door to JR (National Japanese Railway) stations, merely a decade or two later than their older counterparts, with some pairs being centenarians on _both_ sides.
I can never hear about Croydon without thinking of the first context I ever saw it in, which was _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy._ "What do you mean you've met him before? This is Zaphod Beeblebrox, the President of the Galaxy, we're talking about, not bloody Martin Smith from Croydon."
"New Croydon" was built in order that the LB&SCR could get around an agreement with the SER regarding the use of the joint station...
Ah, interesting, I hadn’t come across that. Many thanks!
@@JagoHazzard I've kept it simple because I can't remember where I found the details...but it's the usual story of railway companies squabbling like 8-year-olds.
Thanks, I always thought it was just Croydon having a rather large goods yard.
That is correct, it had a separate booking hall, and as late as the 1960's the telephone kiosks used to say inside "This telephone is at New Croydon Booking Hall" in spite of the fact that it had long ceased to be a booking hall, and the platforms had become Nos. 1 & 2 of East Croydon Station.
i knew about the station coz my uncle works there but I love your in depth videos
Over here in Philadelphia we too have a 'Croydon'.............and it's just as depressing. In yer face UK! Lol.
Hope you've not been flooded out with Ida's remnants. That was a wet storm. I have relatives in Newtown PA.
@@stephenphillip5656 LOTS of wreckage. LOTS of damage. LOTS of 'Everything.' Tornados have touched down in South Jersey(NJ)and did considerable damage. The local Streams & the Delaware River haven't been this 'Bad' in 150/60 years according to the "News"(is THAT what they call it these days??). Still LOTS of wreckage all up and down the Eastern Seaboard. Some damage up in Newtown from what some of the Neighbors have been telling me. I'm up in Warrington myself. Not far from Newtown.
Great lesson.❤️
So you have finally made it to Croydon. There is a wealth of railway history around here, the atmospheric railway and old canal, the huge goods yard north of the two stations and a little further north the old line to Crystal Palace High Level. There is supposed to be an underground atmospheric railway in Crystal Palace Park of which there is now no trace. To the south there was the network of railway serving the power station at Waddon Marsh.
Indeed if Croydon were not a Borough of London in any other reality it would be a city.
Also the Surrey Iron Railway came through here.
if you go to the rotary field in Purley there is a truncated set of tracks as a memorial to some railway that used to run there
@@highpath4776 It did not use to be a borough. When I grew up there in the sixties it was in the county of Surrey.
@@richardclarke376 That would be the Surrey Iron Railway
Great video, thank you!
Good vid Jago. Talking about the LBSCR, do you have any info on its fairly unique 6.7KV 25 Hz AC electrification, which I believe lasted until 1929? I believe Morecambe had a similar arrangement.
hi, grear video. i remember east croydon station in the 60s, now the blunderheads have ruined it. just looks ghastly !
Was the goods yard still there then? I remember seeing it at night in the 50s from my grandmother's bathroom window in Lansdowne Road!
@@tankmicr00man hi. i was only 8 years old then and we used to come up from eastbourne on the 6 pul to victoria, i do not remember seeing the goods yard
@@petersmith4455 Thanks anyway. Someone may remember!
That tile wall map was gorgeous, I would like a copy of that on my shower wall.
I'm picturing that comment voiced by Brian Griffin lol!
I'm slightly surprised that so few people seem to have heard of Croydon Central. I grew up in Coulsdon in the 1950s and was told about it by my mother, who was born in 1921, decades after it closed, which suggests that the memory of it lingered a long time after it was gone. If you're looking for further stories to tell in the Croydon area, how about the three stations of Coulsdon, especially Coulsdon North which had a chequered history? It changed its name three times, transitioned from overhead wires to third rail, was the location of a fatal accident, was eventually closed as being redundant, and suffered the final ignominy of being obliterated by a bypass road.
Hey, Jago...
As a Croydonian, I loved this video. East Croydon, in my opinion, should be renamed "Croydon" as it is literally near the central location, and it would possibly avoid confusion on which station out of the three is the most convenient stop.
Thank you and a thumbs up.
T
Jago, I'm still a rail noob, could you tell me what those little rounded door or passage looking things are in the brick walls along the tracks in some places. Many are passed from 6:46 through 7:20. Decoration? Do they (or did they) go somewhere? Is it drainage for the soil above? Is it a place for track workers to get out of the way of trains? Are they passages to Narnia? I see them a lot in your videos and I always wonder.
Anyway, thanks for another fun video.
My parents told me they're places for track workers to get out of the way of trains. I recall being disappointed. I'd never heard of Narnia, but really hoped they were secret passages anyway.
@@eekee6034 But maybe one of them was.....
@@eekee6034 They are called refuges and are, as you say, for staff to safely get out of the way of trains.
@@robertb7918 Ooh! 😄
@@eekee6034 Being arched they actually add strength to the wall effectively the sides butress and the arch distributes weight, if the walls were just straight (though some cuttings are) eventually side pressure can cause them to give way.
Croydon would have not thought about watching a video about abended Central Croydon Jago Hazzard brings life to it 😀
a video about Spencer Holt/Halt on the line that the Croydon Tramway took over in parts, circa 2000? I believe it went out to Oxted/somewhere in the North Downs of Surrey? Great video as always by the way!
As you said West Croydon, South Croydon and East Croydon. What about North Croydon. Was there a railway station called North Croydon. And to the north is Norwood Junction which could of been North Croydon. Plus London Overground could extend from Norwood Junction to East Croydon.
Maybe there’s a Too Many Croydons video in the offing. I’ve barely even touched on the many Underground plans.
@@JagoHazzard True.
Norwood Junction was originally The Jolly Sailor after a nearby pub. Should have kept that name.
@@peterdavy6110 Ok.
There were other stations to the north closer than Norwood - what about Selhurst for example. The old County Borough had a couple of dozen stations to choose from!
I find this video more interesting than my daily journeys through East Croydon. 🤣
Central Croydon station was an operational convenience. Trains were all steam hauled in that era. So local trains from London or even the through LNWR service via the West London line, could keep the through station at East Croydon clear and run on into Central Croydon Terminus where they could then run around their trains unhindered.
When Central Croydon closed the inconvenience of running locos around their trains in the through station at East Croydon caused problems. So South Croydon station had to have two bay platforms on the Up side added, to cater for these operational difficulties. The Bays at South Croydon are probably still visible. The tracks were however removed soon after the LB&SCR/SR electrified to Coulsdon North (itself now vanished), and the problems of running steam locos around their trains ceased.
I'm pretty sure Kate Moss will enjoy this piece on the railways of Croydon ;-)
I know this sounds a bit like playing Mornington Crescent, but Brixton to Croydon is a bit of a haul without any intermediate stops. If the Victoria Line ever did end up going to Croydon, how about this (barring geological problems) as being a good set of intermediate stations?
Tulse Hill
Norwood
Thornton Heath?
Streatham . Crystal Palace - but by different routes to the surface national rail. I wonder if a station under Gypsy Hill would have vied with Hampstead for being the deepest Tube platforms ?
I'd Say Brixton to St Reatham to Norwood Junction / Selhurst to Croydon is fine. Going out to CPalace takes it too far.
Anyone trying to get to an away fixture at Selhurst Park would surely approve of this proposal.
Love a good Croydon episode.
It could come back if the Bakerloo line extension from Elephant & Castle to East Croydon ever gets the green light,same for the Victoria line Brixton to Herne Hill.
The Bakerloo wouldn’t go to Croydon. First phase is Lewisham, second looks likely to take over the Catford Bridge line including both the Hayes branch and curve to Beckenham Junction. More likely to continue to Bromley than Croydon
The Victoria Line however was long mooted to continue to Croydon. It would make a lot of sense, I hope this is the next extension after the Bakerloo, since I doubt it would happen before. The Herne Hill loop seems pointless, I hope that stupid proposal never happens
@@ChilternTransportProductions The Victoria Line is rammed already, if it went any further south then people in Brixton and Stockwell wouldn't be able to get on!
@@PlanetoftheDeaf Or they’d just stay on the tube further because they wouldn’t have to get the 109, 250 or whatever bus to take them further south?
@@ChilternTransportProductions It is not i who mooted the Bakerloo proposed extension to Croydon,see TFL proposed extensions.As for the Victoria line only Herne Hill proposed extension in the south direction from Brixton was mentioned and possible extension in the north from Walthamstow to Leytonstone on the central line intechange.
great video
Thanks Jago 👍
Jago. You should compile something about Turnham Green Station. It's only two minutes from my dwelling and I'd happily welcome you for partaking in a cup of Earl Grey? Let me know. Bye.
The only problem with the Croydon stations is you have to get out in Croydon.
Racist. (and classist)
@@IambiguousSegment Thanks, stereotypist.
All I'll say is more people have tried to mug me in Croydon than anywhere else!
I take it tongue in cheek but Croydon is allright, never had a problem. Definitely a lot worse places in London IMO
@@wickermanout It was meant in jest.
I suppose it's not as grimy as some parts of Hackney or Dulwich were when I lived in London, and I grew up in 70s Tottenham!
@@onbedoeldekut1515 I used to live in Tottenham briefly in the late '80s. Hmm. "Exciting", but not always in a good way.
I've driven through Croydon quite a few times in the early-mid '90s, on the way to Coulsdon, and on the way to Brighton.
But I think my only trip TO Croydon was a rather depressing one to the immigration office nearly 20 years ago.
I worked in Croydon for 7 years, saw them finish building the tram line and had lots of fun riding on it. Overall Croydon wasn't a bad place to work, it had lots of shops, and was certainly a nicer place than Shepherds Bush where I worked before.
I always meant to go out and see if I could find the site of Central Croydon station, but never got around to it so I was particularly interested in this video.
Hi Jago, "The Fairfield Halls" now occupies the site of Central Croydon Station, that is according to the Late John Huntley, who had hosted railway subject film shows therein, enthusiastically patronized by myself and my grandfather of whom had begun working for the L.B.S.C.R at Anerley Station in 1918
Fairfield halls is what is says it is, it was a gigantic field which backed onto the station, in one of my books ob croydon there is a arial view of the line coming out of thet station curving round and connecting to east croydon.
If you go into queeens gardens the footpath which runs under Welsley Road is basically the line of the track. Before they started to redo the gardens in the wall their use to be the old waiting area. The other original feature is the iron railings which run along the retaining wal at the top.
Croydon from above 1870 to 1999
on page 26 has a photo of the area showing the tracks still in place.
the late John Huntley was mistaken, although the Fair Field site was an important part of the connection.
The bit of Queen's Gardens that's just outside the former Taberner House is quite nice; the bit where the old station approach was is secluded and a bit dingy and the only reason most people used it was to get to the subway through to the Fairfield Halls the other side of the main road. I always thought it was ideally situated as a terminus for the SER line that terminated at Addiscombe (now removed as the trams used most of the line and took the old Bingham Road route rather than Addiscombe); that would mean direct trains to places like Lewisham which might be quite useful as the only rail route there now involves a change at London Bridge.
As far as the London Bridge v Victoria situation goes, my understanding is that the LB&SCR would have built the line to Victoria to have a station convenient for the West End; the two operators who served Kent also had City and West End termini (Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Victoria). It was certainly not more convenient for the City than London Bridge was; that required only a short walk or bus or cab ride across the river to get to the City.
Maybe Croydon used to have as many stations as Acton!
In the days when Croydon was a County Borough there were 14 stations within its boundary.
More of this stuff , i need more and longer and much more, and longer
Proper Croydonians pronounce Katharine St with a long “I”. Really proper Croydonians pronounce is Caf-a-rine St still with a long”i”. And it’s not strictly the current town hall, in fact it’s the second one. The current one Bernard Weatherill House, is actually the fourth one.
Don't forget Taberner House, demolished for no apparent reason.
@@allenwilliams1306 which was the third one. The first one was demolished prior to the building of the second one in the late 19th century.
@@allenwilliams1306 Money, the council and developers!
@@allenwilliams1306 Croydon embraces the modern world. The town can't have old hideous eyesores when it can have new ones instead.
@@heyokaikaggen6288 I know irony when I see it!
Thank you
With the amount of subtle sarcasm going on in this video, somehow I was anticipating "Here's the clock tower from the town hall" (2:48) to be leading up to something like "...and here's a view of marble arch from the adjacent hill - but I digress".
Queens garden has a tunnel opening below the main road. Always thought it looked like a railway tunnel
Good evening Jago
My parents always said to me growing up that there eas always plans to build an underground extension to Croydon it would of been interesting if it had been built i honestly don't think the trams would of been running today amd Croydon would look so much different to now
Thanks again Jago.
Kensington Olympia station. Have you covered that already ?
Sounds interesting.
Should we be sad about Croydon not having another station lol
I suspect a plot by nearby communities.
Give it a north, complete the set
Let's just be sad about Croydon :)
@@zachmakesstuff9866 Thornton Heath (Or Norbury)!
@@highpath4776 selhurst surely?
1:37 London Bridge's propensity towards falling down also made it a less-than-ideal location.
I just got the Southern Line DLC for Train Simulator so I see that you are clearly rooting through my Steam purchases for your video subjects. Shame Jago!
That said, I take it that, despite all the stations around it, actually stopping in Croydon itself is not a good idea.
How dare you. Croydon is a wonderful place. We've got tons of... uh... we've got... we uh... we've got wonders. Tons of wonders.
Croydoners represent 😎