Our Fears Around Max Cushion Shoes, and Tips for Winter Running

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  • Опубліковано 27 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 57

  • @NotElvis
    @NotElvis Місяць тому +34

    I'm a life-long runner in his late sixties. The current generation on max cushioned shoes are the only reason I am running today. Limited joint mobility, and two suspect knees with worn meniscus, ended my running career years ago. Shoes like the Asics Gel-Nimbus 25 have allowed me to return and thrive. I can't change push-off, gait and stride like I used to. My knees are what they are. Max cushioned shoes allow me to run longer and faster than I ever dreamed possible at this phase of my life. Pace is nothing like 30 years ago but I am now going strong thanks to shoes that reduce the pounding and let me recover faster.

    • @ihussain1011
      @ihussain1011 21 день тому

      Great to hear! do try nimbus 26 , 27 soon to be released and definitely Glideride Max :)) and let us know your feedback.

  • @giovanbattistafichera8439
    @giovanbattistafichera8439 Місяць тому +11

    in the chaos of YT shoe reviewers who read specs out loud with little or no knowledge of running mechanics, foams, shoe geometry etc. you guys are such a beacon of hope. Wishing you docs a long and successful career!

  • @veayoislost
    @veayoislost Місяць тому +6

    As a 61 y/o male teacher, I've had time to try many different options. After a neurectomy of my second space( Lt. foot ) over 10 years ago, I moved to wider shoes like Altra and slowly transitioned to barefoot shoes for everyday use such as standing and walking. From this transition my foot has widened and lengthened some. (1/2 size)
    For running (mostly trail) I'll wear the Altra Mont Blanc or the Topo Pursuit 2. Any more cushion seems uncomfortable, while any less really shortens runs for me. It's taken me years to find the right combination of footwear, and I'm sure things will again change.

  • @davidwalsvig2959
    @davidwalsvig2959 24 дні тому

    I have a unique background: clocked in around 415lbs morbidly obese in my late 20s (5'11" male). Lost the weight over 5 years (currently at 180lbs). Started running again 7 years ago. "Standard" trainers (Ride 9). Started getting injured and went thru multiple bouts of PT. Consulted podiatrist. Moved to max stack and prescription orthotics. Things got worse. Went to minimalist for years. Lower mileage (20-30mpw) but less injury. Last year really upped my mileage and more trail miles. Switched to modem shoes again. Mileage goes up to 50mpw. Now have dealt with 2 bouts of anterior tib tendinitis within a few months (different legs). Our bodies are wild.
    Loved the episode

  • @OnTheEdge86
    @OnTheEdge86 29 днів тому

    I have a long history of running injuries, stess fracture, shin splints, compartment sydrome leading to a fasciotomy being the main one.
    For many years the compartment syndrome would flare back up every time I tried to run again.
    Eventually, I switched to altra escalantes shoes for running and casual wear, did a lot of barefoot exercises, what Eric Orton might call "foot core" stuff. I slowed the pace way down and this got me running again.
    I ran for 18 months or so, overdid it, developed severe achilles pain last June (insertional), possibly a tendinopathy I'm not sure. I took advice from this podcast and started strengthening. I'm running again now for maybe 6 or 7 weeks (alongisde some strengthening although I nees to progress that) , 30 something miles/week very slow, pain is gradually easing.
    Long story there, but basically flat wide toebox low stack shoes and body weight strengthening got me running again without pain for about 18 months.
    This was a revelation for me, now that I'm recovering from some achilles pain (I think this was driven more by over doing the training then by the shoes).
    Would I benefit from adding a high stack shoe like the saucony endorphin speed to my rotation (particularly conscious of the insertional achilles issue)?

  • @v6i838
    @v6i838 29 днів тому

    Definitely agree with erring on the side of too warm to avoid hypothermia, as discussed around the 20:00 mark. I experienced hypothermia a few months back after a half marathon race and it was a solid 0/10 on the fun scale

  • @randenlewis152
    @randenlewis152 Місяць тому +4

    I used to love max stack, so comfy. But now they feel like running in sand or mud and saps all my energy

    • @jeffhicks8428
      @jeffhicks8428 29 днів тому

      I don't really agree with that, I think you just need to find better shoes with more resilient midsole. The new 1080v14 has way more pop than the v13. BUT also Thats partly because max stack used to be 30 mm. Now that's a racing flat. The 1080 v12 is like 28 mm stack height. Even a More v4 from last year was 34 mm. The More v5 is 44 mm! and all the room inside the shoe is gone. Running shoes = gimmick land. Going all the way back to the gimmicky "air" and "gel" nonsense and even bigger nonsense like medial posts that do NOTHING but cause people to sprain their ankles. Ah yes, the 15 year old kid getting paid $7.25 an hour is going to do "gait analysis" to tell me what shoe I need, and the answer is always one with a medial post. It's all a SCAM. If these companies actually stood by their products they wouldn;t need to radically change them every few months. It's a shoe, not an iPhone. I hate it so much. Yet I'm a sucker that's spent $1800 on running shoes in the last 12 months. So I am part of the problem.. I might switch to buying $40 Chinese made shoes going forward. These brands don't deserve my loyalty or money.

  • @georgesoto5436
    @georgesoto5436 Місяць тому +1

    When I started running the Hoka Boni was it, as I grew more experience running and improved my efficiency, there’s no way I would run in those shoes again. Recently, I made the mistake of purchasing the NB V13 fresh foam more (not sure about the version) and just learned to hate, all that mush never worked for me and because I tend to have feet issues, I felt these max shoes made it worse. Ever since two years ago I started easing into zero drop splayed toes type of shoes for every wear and feel this has helped me quite a bit. I train in Spector 2, Cyclone 2, Triumph 20, Glide Ride 3, and ASICS Evo speed and pretty happy with my shoe rotation. Oh, I forgot one that I picked from one of you or your team ( mizuno wave rebellion 2) and love it. Thanks for the video! I think what distinguishes you from the rest of hundreds of other running shoe reviewers is that you applied your profession to these reviews, which I love. So glad I found you guys!

    • @DoctorsofRunning
      @DoctorsofRunning  Місяць тому

      Thanks for the kind words!

    • @georgesoto5436
      @georgesoto5436 Місяць тому

      @@DoctorsofRunning and apologies for the grammar and misspelling, I hate these electronic IPhone keyboards..lol

  • @movdqa
    @movdqa Місяць тому

    I need to haul all of this stuff out of my winter bin. I'm in NH and have accumulated a lot of winter gear over the years. I also have access to two indoor tracks and have a spin bike at home when the weather is too bad to go out.

  • @kmshultz
    @kmshultz Місяць тому +1

    Unless I missed it, y'all didn't talk about tops for very cold weather (vests were mentioned). When it's below ~25-30F, I like a hybrid fleece like the Arc'teryx Delta Hybrid. These fleeces have a panel of wind-blocking material on the chest and upper arms while remaining breathable like a fleece. It's much nicer than wearing a normal fleece plus a windbreaker or jacket on top of it. The Arc'teryx fleece has the brand's characteristically long arms, plus thumb holes! Which I poke my thumbs through and then pull gloves over the top. Thus the sleeves will never separate from your gloves and leave your skin exposed. Last winter I ran down to 5F with just the Arc'teryx fleece with a merino LS baselayer under it (one from Saucony; it's great). Around 30F I just need a tank underneath the fleece, or even no base at all.

  • @Murphy2043
    @Murphy2043 28 днів тому

    I'm not as educated as you guys, so I can only offer anecdotes. I never got into the max cushion trend. In the 2010s, I was running in my old Nike Shox, some low-stack-height cross-trainers, and the Nike Free RNs I picked up from Dick's Sporting Goods. No, I didn't even think to go to a shoe store, let alone a running store. Still, with as little running knowledge as I had, I gravitated more toward the Free for its flexibility, reasonable stack height, and clean aesthetic.
    I took a break from running and, in 2022, acclimated to barefoot shoes for walking, gym use, and everyday wear. Knowing the transition would take a while, I also bought the Altra Escalante Racer for running. I didn't have any calf soreness on that first run because I was already used to the barefoot shoes. Even now, I only get soreness in the Racer if I push the mileage, and even then, it's in my knees, not lower. Once I get used to the distance, there's no pain. I expect hip or glute weakness may be the culprit as I generally midfoot strike now after learning not to extend the leg at the knee during my stride. I used to be an overstrider and heel striker, and yet, I never had any injuries or soreness in my Nike Frees. Of course, I was in my twenties.
    I can run two miles without discomfort in my barefoot shoes with the insoles in. The stack height is a bit over 12 millimeters, including the insoles. I don't know my limits with barefoot shoes because I'm cautious. I once made the mistake of trying to catch the street car in the Vivobarefoot Primus Lite III after exhausting my feet at the gym; my big toe immediately became inflamed.
    The farthest I've run is 6 miles, and that was in the Escalante Racer. I have yet to determine what combination of stack height and compliance is best at avoiding knee pain for me. I bought the Escalante 1 on Ebay and the Rivera 3. Walking around in the Rivera felt harder with all that cushion. I wonder if that would make my knees more sore on a run because of the reduced foot activation and need for greater stability. It may be good for sore feet though.
    As for whether barefoot shoes strengthen feet, regardless of what the data currently shows, I expect it will show that they do. Anya from Anya's Reviews has pictures showing her arch transformation from transitioning to barefoot shoes, which ended up being the solution to her increasingly painful feet and impaired walking. Her doctors never advised it. Rather, they were saying she needed surgery after the orthotics weren't working. It's an example of how convention can blind even the most educated.

  • @QronoZ713
    @QronoZ713 Місяць тому +3

    The Glycerin Max have been great ramping up mileage after an Achilles injury

    • @elizabethw.454
      @elizabethw.454 Місяць тому

      Do they feel stable at such a large stack height? I worry I would roll my ankle

    • @fergusdenoon1255
      @fergusdenoon1255 Місяць тому +1

      ​@@elizabethw.454it's stiffer than a brick, and less comfortable than a brick.

    • @QronoZ713
      @QronoZ713 Місяць тому +3

      @@elizabethw.454 I have no issue with the height. Id consider it quite stable. And its not a brick. I have over 70 pairs of running shoes, definitely soft and well cushioned

  • @cmbthebrand
    @cmbthebrand Місяць тому +2

    I’m 48…230 lbs and just started running. I’m currently running in three different shoes and have noticed different strains and stresses based on stack heights and levels of cushioning. I’m leaning towards the school of thought that I need to keep mixing it up, versus settling in on one set up. It has been very confusing for me as I do want to make sure I have some longevity, as I have knee and back problems. I would like to hear more information on how what is considered high stack for someone 165 pounds, versus someone over 200 pounds.

  • @colinmclellan4683
    @colinmclellan4683 Місяць тому

    7:10 I'm with Matt, my legs would be popsicles with that setup. Just goes to show how different we all are!

  • @Lukas-md8fp
    @Lukas-md8fp Місяць тому +11

    As someone who has the glycerin max, new balance more v5, superblast 2 and the puma magmax I definitely feel the difference when running in those shoes, I'm able to run for longer and recovery is much easier the next day. However the shoes don't have much flexibility and some are almost as stiff as a carbon plate, and the foot doesn't know if you're running in a carbon plate or not, it responds to the stiffness of the shoe. So over time your legs can become weaker without strength training. That's my take on it

    • @dyingpentas
      @dyingpentas Місяць тому +1

      That's why it's important to have a rotation of different kinds of shoes

    • @macewindex564
      @macewindex564 Місяць тому

      Plates dissipate the force of the foot against more of the foam so you can use more of it. Otherwise the pressure the foot creates is concentrated against less of the foam and you get more sink in

    • @brunis_m
      @brunis_m Місяць тому +1

      Which has the widest toebox? Pizza feet here

    • @Lukas-md8fp
      @Lukas-md8fp Місяць тому

      @@brunis_m glycerin max

  • @ryanvilano
    @ryanvilano 29 днів тому +1

    I already love your channel, but seeing the Survivor buff raised my respect to over 40mm.

  • @Feanaro5503
    @Feanaro5503 Місяць тому

    I’m in DE, and haven’t run in more than a t-shirt since April. And it’ll be 80 on Halloween. 😮

  • @SplinterBreak
    @SplinterBreak 29 днів тому +1

    Something to add about taller shoes and injury, is it makes it far easier to roll an ankle on uneven terrain because you are effectively on stilts, and the resultant roll is often worse than it would be otherwise because the stack makes a lever that makes the ankle splay out further than it otherwise would in a shorter shoe or barefoot.

  • @brunis_m
    @brunis_m Місяць тому +2

    Does any of this stuff translate to walking as well? Curious as to what people who are walkers or just on their feet for a significant portion of the day should be paying attention to.

  • @DoctorsofRunning
    @DoctorsofRunning  Місяць тому +3

    How do you feel about max cushion footwear?

    • @cmbthebrand
      @cmbthebrand Місяць тому +1

      I’m 48…230 lbs and just started running. I’m currently running in three different shoes and have noticed different strains and stresses based on stack heights and levels of cushioning. I’m leaning towards the school of thought that I need to keep mixing it up, versus settling in on one set up. It has been very confusing for me as I do want to make sure I have some longevity, as I have knee and back problems. I would like to hear more information on how what is considered high stack for someone 165 pounds, versus someone over 200 pounds.

  • @ChairmanAntelope
    @ChairmanAntelope 29 днів тому

    In the UK we usually call those fuzz ball hats bobble hats.

  • @benbauer7866
    @benbauer7866 29 днів тому +1

    Go Badgers! Also damn, Nathan is a yeti or something. No way I’m wearing shorts on my 35 degree runs LOL

  • @brendasantos5245
    @brendasantos5245 Місяць тому

    Fuzz ball aka POM POM :) In Canada, we call that hat a "toque"

  • @PaulioNZ
    @PaulioNZ 29 днів тому

    That "Fuzz Ball" Is a Pom Pom. They are still called Beanies but, just winter weight versions.
    Question - Do you know what material "weight" your lightweight beanies are ? Or could you put them on a kitchen scale and see how much they weigh?

  • @jeremydalton2697
    @jeremydalton2697 29 днів тому

    The stack heights is interesting discussion. It seems that the higher stacks are not my cup of tea. Around 40 and up my body is not responding or it’s making me unstable. I was using Hoka Clifton, ASICS Kayano 30, and finally a new Ghost. I was having issues to include shin pain which felt like a pulling towards the ankle. I just got a 4mm Altra with a lower stack and it not only felt great, it raised my cadence and speed. I think foam property definitely is personalized. I’m a neutral runner and my right foot likes a stable neutral. My left foot has issues the higher the shoe is and softer. Does it create instability? Injury type for me definitely changed.

  • @morrisrehn4653
    @morrisrehn4653 Місяць тому +1

    Running in a minimalist or low drop non maximalist shoes for tempo or fast runs and the new maximalist shoes for easy pace runs a good approach for a 72 year old runner 🤔🤔

  • @luxsasha
    @luxsasha Місяць тому

    I tried barefoot/5fingers and picked up a few injuries but later was fine. I then stopped and went back to max coushin. I can’t imagine it being that bad for you considering my calves were on fire but later adapted really well. Doesn’t that transfer to regular shoes? there has to be some cross training benefit?

  • @TadeuszCantwell
    @TadeuszCantwell Місяць тому

    On the comment on foot strengthening in maximalist shoes the argument from the minimalist side is not that there is no effect on the foot in these shoes, it is that the shoe arch to some degree turns off the foot arch depending on the shape which causes it not to engage to the same degree and may cause those muscles to loose definition if they remain continuously in a relaxed state for most of the day, isn't that the whole point of a shoe arch in the first place. Or that pronation control or heel lock in a comparative sense reduces the activation of other foot muscles. Which is not to say there is no intrinsic foot muscle development at all, it is just less or in some shoes, specifically if the arch fully turned off and either not develop or loose definition. Otherwise what is the point of these features of the shoe if not to reduce muscle fatigue by having them do less work?

  • @runningguy98
    @runningguy98 Місяць тому

    I don't like overly stacked shoes. They're generally too stiff and too soft for me. When I've trained in overstocked shoes, I've end up injured, either postterior tibial tendonitis or plantar fasciitis. I attribute the propensity to those injuries to the stiffness of the shoes and my high arch. Basically, they don't give my foot enough room to properly flex, increasing either the tension on the my plantar fascia or increase the force on my ankle.
    Shoes I like have decent flexibility (New Balance 1080 v11, since been ruined by the max stack revolution) and the Adidas SL and SL 2, which is well on the way to being ruined. I just want a protective shoe with decent cushion and a thick outsole. And I want flexibility in the forefoot.
    The whole problem is that all the companies do the same thing and there isn't enough variety.

  • @Brayden-c9o
    @Brayden-c9o Місяць тому

    Can someone help guide me to a new shoe? I currently run in a rebel V3 and it's nice. I am a forefoot striker and my half marathon best (and only) time is 1:45. I'm 160lbs @ 5'9" and I am looking at something more minimal with more stability because I think I'll like it. I don't really generally enjoy cushionier shoes. I am also looking for something with more cushion/more variety or something that would be closer to a race day shoe. Not concerned about having a carbon plate or anything. I think the Escalante 4 is a good place to start for me for the stability shoe, but have no idea about the opposite spectrum. I kinda hate the rocker action too. Any help is greatly appreciated!

  • @hansnothanz
    @hansnothanz Місяць тому

    Need help with running shoes, just started running and recently bought the arahi 7 in mens size 11 2E after having them do a volumental scan but im noticing towards the end of my runs on my right foot my arch kinda hurts and im not sure its because of the shoe width (I heard that hoka's tend to run narrow) or because in the foot scan my right foot was assessed as a medium arch and my left foot a low arch so I need arch support.
    Scan details
    Left foot: US 10.5 E
    Right foot: US 9.9 2E
    And both with narrow heels
    And any shoes I should try out? I wanna get a 2nd pair this december. Thanks for the help

    • @ericperramond3463
      @ericperramond3463 Місяць тому +1

      If you need that mild stability that the Arahi offers, you might think about the Saucony Hurricane (newest). If you are not a pronator/supinator, and more of a neutral runner, and need more toebox volume, Topo Specter 2 might be up your alley (lighter, too). Good luck!

    • @hansnothanz
      @hansnothanz Місяць тому

      @@ericperramond3463 thanks for the input! I think the stiffer foam from the J - frame is causing the arch pain, and/ or the lack of width the arahi gives in my right foot which is the wider one. Ill give the hurricane a try in store, not sure thought about the topo since I dont think they sell those where I live.
      Thanks!

    • @dorins3787
      @dorins3787 Місяць тому +1

      Try something neutral stable. Like Saucony Guide. Or anything with a wide base. P.s. in motion, your foot might behave differentely than a static scan.

  • @dyingpentas
    @dyingpentas Місяць тому +1

    Doesn't matter. People love them so manufacturers will keep making more of them😂

  • @garybowes6284
    @garybowes6284 Місяць тому

    A jacket looped through a running belt at the back of. You wouldn’t know it’s there.

  • @JimbobPokerface
    @JimbobPokerface Місяць тому

    Guy on the left has a really similar voice to Tony Hawk

  • @PoetWithPace
    @PoetWithPace Місяць тому +2

    It seems you guys are sitting on the fence? Surely you don't need a degree in science to work out that the higher the stack of a shoe, the more unstable it becomes? Also, this is nothing new, since i have been running, i do recall Hoka making a name for themselves over 7 years ago as being the only brand doing Max cushioning shoes until Nike saw an opportunity and introduced the Invincible. Now everyone is trying to out do themselves with max cushion shoes. The shoes may feel comfortable out of the box, but they do not help our natural biomechanics and you can hear more of what i have to say here: ua-cam.com/video/Hbr8hqO9yfI/v-deo.html

  • @jeffhicks8428
    @jeffhicks8428 29 днів тому

    The new 1080v14 is.... taller. stiffer. narrower. than ever before. The toebox also seems less round and more pointy than before. Is it even a 1080 anymore? Why is running shoe so gimmicky and fickle? Why do shoe models need to be radically changed every few months? Seems like they have no faith in themselves to design something that's actually good. Lets throw some more stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Whats trendy atm? High stacks, stiff and rockered, tight fit? Go go go. I don't even get it. Always something to compromise. The v13 fit me but was unstable and mushy. The v14 has an amazing soft bouncy midsole that is a joy to walk or run in, but the shoe doesn't fit that great anymore. Same with More. The v4 fit. The v5 doesn't fit. If they ruin the Rebel I'm going to dust off my bicycle or start importing no name Chinese running shoes for half the cost. I give up.

    • @fergusdenoon1255
      @fergusdenoon1255 19 днів тому +1

      The issue is that people who complain make a bigger noise than people that are happy, so you could have a shoe that 80% of people think are great, but the 20% get them to change it into something else.
      so the 1080v13 which was great, absolutely perfect, is now changed because people said it was too unstable and mushy...
      so they change it, make the foam more dense, which makes it heavier, make the fit tighter so it's less unstable... and guess what, you have the shoe you were asking for... less mushy, more stable, heavier and tighter shoe... the 1080V14

  • @cmbthebrand
    @cmbthebrand Місяць тому +1

    I’m 48…230 lbs and just started running. I’m currently running in three different shoes and have noticed different strains and stresses based on stack heights and levels of cushioning. I’m leaning towards the school of thought that I need to keep mixing it up, versus settling in on one set up. It has been very confusing for me as I do want to make sure I have some longevity, as I have knee and back problems. I would like to hear more information on how what is considered high stack for someone 165 pounds, versus someone over 200 pounds.

    • @dorins3787
      @dorins3787 Місяць тому +1

      Not a doctor.. but for sure a higher weight translates to higher forces. Weight as an absolute metric is less relevant. It's composition and your lifestyle are. Body mass index is relevant. 99kg at 180 has a meening. 99 kg at 160 is another. It is tricky since you are a new runner to recommend something. I generally believe you need to take it slow, increase gradually your mileage and speed. I believe running a long 20k in barefoot shoes is generally a bad idea because very few people have the muscle for the activity. I also believe running a 5k at high speed in a 50mm stack is a bad idea. Both uses can get one hurt. Eg..maybe a Ferarri is not good for offroad terrain.. and Range Rover will not get you too far in a street race. I think it is ok to spread shoes, as long as you do not exagerate with the training. You are trying to spread the load across your body. You will (100% because you spread load) hit points that are not adapted to the load and might cave in. So keep it safe. I believe it is more important to strenght train (40+ brings reduced muscle mass). I also believe it is crucial to use the right shoe for the right training activity.

    • @cmbthebrand
      @cmbthebrand Місяць тому +1

      @@dorins3787​​⁠Thanks for the input. I’ve strength trained for years, and got into this hybrid training a few months ago, for context.