The Science of Running Shoe Cushioning: How Max Cushioning Impacts Joints and Muscles
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
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We are a group of physical therapists and runners interested in the art and science of running shoes. Learn more by visiting doctorsofrunning.com - Спорт
Sources for today's podcast:
Kulmala, J. P., Kosonen, J., Nurminen, J., & Avela, J. (2018). Running in highly cushioned shoes increases leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading. Scientific reports, 8(1), 17496.
Malisoux, L., Ramesh, J., Mann, R., Seil, R., Urhausen, A., & Theisen, D. (2015). Can parallel use of different running shoes decrease running-related injury risk?. Scandinavian journal of medicine & science in sports, 25(1), 110-115. doi.org/10.1111/sms.12154
Mercer, M. A., Stone, T. M., Young, J. C., & Mercer, J. A. (2018). Running economy while running in shoes categorized as maximal cushioning. International journal of exercise science, 11(2), 1031.
Theisen, D., Malisoux, L., Genin, J., Delattre, N., Seil, R., & Urhausen, A. (2014). Influence of midsole hardness of standard cushioned shoes on running-related injury risk. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 48(5), 371-376.
Worobets, J., Wannop, J. W., Tomaras, E., & Stefanyshyn, D. (2014). Softer and more resilient running shoe cushioning properties enhance running economy. Footwear Science, 6(3), 147-153.
Having run in both more cushioning and less cushioning over the last 35 years or so (first pair of running shoes in 1991), all I have to say is that more cushioning is DEFINITELY better!!
Hello Matt! Congrats on your PhD!
It seems that we're mostly talking about 3-4 properties instead of 2:
1) Compliance is how much the foam/shoe will deform as response to load
2) Resilience is how much the foam/shoe will deform back to the original shape after being deformed
3-4) Rates (both compliance rate and resilience rate) are how fast those deformations will happen.
So we can have a foam with high compliance (it'll deform quite a lot) and slow compliance rate (it'll take more time to fully deform) that will feel quite different from a foam with high compliance and fast compliance rate. I think rates are even more important when talking about Resilience, because how fast a foam will return to its original shape is super important when we're talking about energy return while running, because there's a specific window of time where such return to original shape will improve running economy, right?
That can also explain why some shoes will feel wildly different depending on the runner, given their anatomic and running mechanics differences and how they 'match' with the shoe's properties under specific running conditions.
I think that by 'compressing' (heh) both resilience and resilience rate into the same property we might be muddling some aspects of why shoes might feel good or bad.
Great information. Running shoe companies need to do a better job of quantifying the blend and softness/firmness of their models. I need a somewhat firmer running shoe with a wider waist and some stability. Having clearer information would help in decision making. I also find running without socks adds to the sensory experience and I it helps me adjust to the surface. form etc. Love you videos. I wonder if anyone else prefers running without socks.
After a marathon training cycle experience with max cushioning shoes, i switched back to normal running shoes, which is less than 20mm forefoot and 30mm heel for intervals and anything less than 16km. I paid a lot more attention on my landing and running form.
Thank you for a really interesting and very helpful exposition of shoe cushioning. Far more complex (& more much interesting) than I had thought.
Probably one of the best videos in ‘shoetube’ land.
Thank you!
That's some valuable insight! Thanks! My experience is the "shoeverse" tends to drive you to the harder faster further way of running, but that does not represent all runners. And the way of high performance aiming to marathons demands you to be skinny.
But I'm a heavy guy with knee issues, so I know all this won't apply to me.
I realized a few years ago, when max stack foams arrived, I need a mildly firm midsole. It helps with stability (I do mildly pronate) and I know it won't bottom down if I heelstrike or if I hit a pothole (it happens!...).
But shops always advises me "you are heavy, take some Max cushion".
I totally understand why firmer shoes may be better due to less stabilization recruiting with more movement and softer shoes requiring more stabilization and less movement. It actually made things clearer to my perception input.
And that's why I found use do the hated Boston 11 (stiff till break in, then firm) and Boston 12 (firm) compared to soft shoes.
High stack may exacerbate my pronation, and it happened with Novablast 3, forbidding it's use to me. 1080v12 is too soft and I got cramps at my foot sole. I feel like if it's too soft, it requires some muscles to keep in concentric and eccentric tension all the time, like a tight rubber band being tapped. With firmer midsoles I feel my stride is better splitted between tension and relaxation moments, and does not gets so taxing. Hope it makes sense to you you!
Anyway, thanks for this. Very helpful indeed
👍🇧🇷👏👏👏
Rockers can definitely adjust the effectiveness of what cushioning actually means in the shoe - late stage vs early stage
Super helpful video and I appreciate that your site is inclusive of a wide range of runners. Like you, I benefit from more stable/guided shoes especially on longer runs. And I'm glad that brands have started moving away from firm posts because some of those gave me blisters. We are in a golden age for stability shoes and I am here for it! Still holding out hope for stable racing shoes; that's the dream.
This was very informative and I run in a variety of shoes/brands and drops/stacks as well. This episode validates why I have that collection!
I don't like overly soft and mushy shoes especially NB fresh foam midsole as well, glad that I'm rotating between Kinvara 13, Mach 5, Speed 3 and a mild carbon plated shoes for variety of running sessions! Thanks Matt for the detailed explanation on shoes cushioning, another great episode & content as always!😀
Good explanation of resilience vs compliance.
"Little slow right now" Matt, you guys still put out content more than most of the channels out there give yourself a break. Also any chance of another saucony interview when the Endorphin Elite 2 comes out?
Really glad you are addressing this topic. I’m one who tends to do better in firmer shoes and less rocker and toe spring usually found on highly cushioned shoes. I’m hoping some of this leads to a better balance in shoe choices depending on runner needs. The trend as you said is more cushion and it’s getting hard to find many firmer choices. Adrenaline is one of the only models I can currently run in.
You should help the shoe companies design their shoes!
excellent video on cushioning... Thank you!
I love the foam in Rebel v3. The stack is low but the bounce is heaven. Ffblast+ on Nimbus 25 is tiring...too soft
I agree more cushioned is better for me, now yes on the trails I try to not get to technical, but I sure feel better and it helps my tibialus anterior pain
I agree I think the 31 was executed really well. It doesn’t feel soft to me like the nimbus. The nimbus was slightly unstable for me.
Very good explanation. Thank you
Saucony triumph 21 is the perfect combination for me especially for daily miles.
Really good episode that went deep into the nuances of cushioning. It's so important to know your running style, kinetic chain strengths/weaknesses, etc. these days, it seems. As you always say, what a shoe feels like is really important, but sometimes what might feel good (e.g. super soft & compliant) might not be the best for the long term in terms of injury. I am finding that out in real time! Sometimes I long for the old days when I'd put on the motion control shoe (Air Stab anyone?) and hoped those heavy bricks worked out :)
Totally agree with you on 1. Resilience vs compliance; 2. Experimentations. I started running again in February after a few years of layoff due to one knee problem, I used to run with kayano 20, that was a good shoes for me , ran a quite a few of races as well. So I stared run with with ASICS blast, which wear for walking a lot, but I got both knee problems . I believe because my weight is higher and age is older, so I bought a Hoka Bondi 8, it makes me run for about 3 months, I felt it costs me too much extra energy, because too much cushioned, feel like run on a beach sand. So I decided to drop the cushions, I bought a pair of Clifton 9, it hurtled my both ankle and hip on the first run, because no drop and too big toe box. My best friend once told me, shoes are very personal. Thank you for your video!
I’ve watched this a few times and it seems like contradictory info is being given at times, so I’d like to just ask a question to simplify and check for understanding: so softer cushioning will cause the leg to need to stabilize and shock absorb itself more? And firmer cushioning will cause the leg to have to stabilize and shock absorb itself less?
Rotating shoes through the week has helped me as an aging daily runner. This was good advice years ago. Mix it up, 💯
Best video ever about this.
I can wear my Brooks Adrenaline 22 gts shoes and have great success and I can put on my Brooks glycerin 20 gts and have horrible foot pain. I can wear my New Balance Fresh foam x4 more and have a perfect day for recovery. And ASICS kayano 29s are hit or miss. Saucony guide 16s are also hit or miss. I have horrible plantar fasciitis and arthritis in my ankles. I don’t think there is a perfect shoe. If there is or was I can’t find it. Great video and and I’ll be sharing with many others
Great video, Matt (or should I say, Dr. Matt! congratulations!). I had two questions:
First, with reference to the studies you're citing, most of them predate the explosion in stack heights and the evolution of the peba/eva foams like you mentioned. Do you think that has any impact on some of the conclusions (ie. were they looking at 40mm midsoles when evaluating high compliant foams?).
2nd, with respect to medial support, generally speaking would a more compliant foam help support post tibial tendon issues, or does that run the risk of exacerbating it because it is loading the joint and forcing more stabilization?
Wow. Just wow. So much articulation to so many questions and experiences I’ve had. This is awesome. QQ: I have noticed a lot more calf tightness since I started running in the Superblast. I really like the shoe but the calf tightness makes me nervous. Is this an example of a shoe that although it has lots of foam underfoot, it is also a bit firmer and may be causing my calf muscles and joints to stretch more like you described around 11:00 mark? I feel like this didn’t happen to me as much when I used to rotate the Ride 13 and Endorphin Speed. After just two miles my calf feels like it’s on the verge of cramping versus the 6+ mile runs I used to do without issue in the Saucony rotation.
So I continued watching and must note I was also running 3.5-7 miles on the trail every week in the Peregrine back then versus exclusively on the road now, so it may not only be running exclusively in the Superblast and the lack of variety there but also the lack of variety in surface since trail definitely works different muscle groups.
Love your podcast ❤
You insight is helpful to learn about my own issues with my feet
I have flat feet and recently was prescribed custom inserts.. I have issues with my left hip( piriformis, pain) side lower leg tightness to pain and left ankle pain
I have seen orthopedic doctor, they did an MRI found out I have 3 herniated discs.. blah blah
Anyways, o definitely like to Lauren to your episodes while running or walking.. I’m struggling on why show to get for long runs, I started this week my 16 weeks of marathon training, and I need a good shoe that can help me run my long runs without feeling to fatigue on my hip and ankle.. so far I’m doing by running slow and in control, If I need to walk to readjust my form I’ll do it.. I’m training for my second Marathon ever.. Please keep put out your insightful content 🤘👏👏
I’m 56 and use to use the OG adidas adios low cushion shoe for years. I’ve looked at my times vs super shoes and think I’m faster in that old low stack show. The ASICS Metaspeed edge + was another firm feeling race shoe that I did my 3rd PB at 56. The adidas adios pro 2 I used for a marathon and it was good for comfort but feel it was not the most efficient for my mechanics anyway. Had more softer leg saving foam but every one’s different and now all these super shoes are high stack and stiff but pretty soft now in 2024. Except for a few with amazing rebound.
Really interesting podcast thanks Matt.
Couple of things piqued my interest.
Many times you mention everyone is different, and I'd love to explore the "why" behind that. For the majority of us, is this as simple as the patterns we've become atuned to from our environment, or does it run deeper with genetic and age related factors. I'm mainly wondering how feasible it is to change these "differences" in one another, and to what extent.
Thanks again for the great content! Much appreciated.
What about the drop of shoes? How does that affect anything? Is a lower drop shoe better for walking and a higher drop shoe better for running if you’re a heel striker?
I recently got Altra Vanish Carbon and the foam reminds me of Lightstrike Pro. How would you describe the resiliency and characteristics of these foams. I really like them. They are not exactly “sink and bounce” and I struggle to describe them.
How is Saucony Tempus for you? based on your bio mechanics? does it work better for you than GT-2000 12's ?
WE LOVE YOU.
I got some Superblasts and also tried some Gel Nimbus, both of them seemed to give me this feeling of sponginess or softness in the heel, then slowly with both shoes, I developed inflammation on my achilies. Do you think this could be linked? (I also have the Ride17, which feels more supportive in the heel, and had no problems).
Yeah, my knees hurt after a long run in cushy soft shoes.
I have a lot of damage to my feet and one ankle. I never wore cushioned shoes with any significant stack height and my feet were always sore. I started wearing cushioned higher stack shoes and my feet feel incredible for the first time, unfortunately I now have injured both knees.
Hi @DoctorsofRunning , I am using Endorphin Speed 4 for fast , long and easy runs . I have read somewhere that using a plated shoe for everyday running can kill your ankles. Should I start using non plated daily trainer shoe like Novablast 4 ?
Well for myself I much prefer a lower stack shoe on easy days like the Puma Liberate. I think it would be dreadful to run in a very heavy cushioned shoe every day. I like a light shoe on easy days so I can extend and stretch my legs out while still maintaining good running form.
I rotate 4-6 diff pairs often from diff brands at a time. Maybe that's overkill.
Most are neutral, none are minimalist shoes, but I think teaching the body to adapt even slightly is beneficial for injury prevention.
Plus it's easier on the wallet when I can look at almost any shoe and say...yeah I can probably find a place for that in my rotation. Whatever the best deal is and fits properly can work for me.
It's a privilege but I also have been doing a major rotation for 6-7years.
I rarely spend more than 100$ per pair. Generally wearing last year's models.
Im struggling with the superblast. It causes ache in my calves and knees. Its at 530km. Dead foam or is it a biomechanical issue? 😮. Maybe max stack shoes that are firm cause problems.
You are running too often in them.
Did you always struggle with it or is it a recent issue?
@@michaelcaricoo recent. Maybe like around the 400-450km mark.
@TheValonquar if you didn't have any issues with it before, and nothing mechanically has changed (more running, maybe a small niggle/injury) then you might have worn the foam in enough to cause you to run differently or it's dying. Hard to say but if it's a recent thing then it kind of points to something having changed, not necessarily an issue with you using the superblast, if it was that it should've happened earlier
@@michaelcaricoo mechanically not doing much different. My mileage has gone up but so has my shoe diversity. I used to use Superblast for majority of my runs now it's like max once per week. My 17km run felt awful first 10k then it felt better. So difficult to pinpoint issue. Makes me hesitant to buy SB2.
Research however has shown very little proof that foams/cushioning absorb any impact from running? Not? Which means compliant/resilient foams and the choice thereof is comfort or personal preference based?
After a long layoff I run in highly cushion shoes and as my feet get stronger over a training cycle I need less cushioned shoes
Imagine if all you use is a hammock when you lie down, whether you sleep, watch TV or eat. Imagine what that could do to your back if you do this for a long period. That’s how your feet would feel if all you use are highly cushioned high compliance shoes.
Matt, you're getting a PhD? You'd think I'd remember considering you mention it during every video. Just yanking your chain. 😂
Haha. This comment made my day! -Matt
Can't wait for the proper annoucement! :)
@@DoctorsofRunning Cheers, Matt.
i start to think thak all those shoes with sooo much cushioning (40mm now!) are making people only weaker.
yes, they allow to run more, but with less and less form....
maybe that's why they say minimalist shoes are the healthiest at the end.....
Escalante and Rivera ftw :D
Cushioning good for recovering once or twice a week but I prefer less cushioning in my daily runs
Did you get your PhD?
✅
@@DoctorsofRunning YAY!!!!
Congrats Matt🎉
Congratulations!!
Congrats!
I just more cushioning for the pushing lol 😂
Geezus.. at the end of the day people. Their just shoes.. you wear em thats it. WAY TOO MUCH OVERTHINKING .. all lost in translation in the end.
Yea, oo much exxageration on this topic. ITs just a shoe at the end of the day.