TNFlygirl Crash 7 Dec 2023 N5891J
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- Опубліковано 11 гру 2023
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UPDATE 12/20 NTSB Prelim Report: data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193491/pdf
Looks like she had cameras running according to the report. That should tell the tale if they can recover the data.
@@patrickbateman488says intact, so I think investigators will see exactly what happened, whether that footage will be released is the question. I would assume it’s tough to watch in the final moments.
I'm betting they're going to see what those of us who have watched some of her videos have a fairly good idea of what happened, and it started a couple of years ago.@@Yankee4life91
Did she ever soloed? Any picture from crash site?
400 hundred hours, what is your guess?@@ShonMardani
Hi Juan. Good analysis. Jenny and I were very close friends. She studied hard, for knowing her Debonair and the autopilot. I know she must not have understood and committed to memory, all that was in the a/p manual. Maybe the autopilot always acted up, but contributing factor was she wasn’t 100% conversant in its operation. She was taking the plane in for autopilot upgrade (maybe a new gps too?). She wasn’t fully competent with the interface, if the Aspen 1000. Why she couldn’t just fully disconnect the a/p, and hand fly!? I told her several times, she had to be able to do 100% of everything, when hand flying (also when using a/p and during her instrument training). Her young CFII was coddling her, by helping her too much. He left for a regional airline. She found 3 months ago, another more seasoned CFII (also corporate pilot). He didn’t permit go pro filming. They did lots of very good training! I offered to fly to Knoxville, and go with her on THIS flight. She decided to just take her dad😞. I regret that I wasn’t onboard, as with my 55years’ flying experience, we probably could have avoided this. I’m in shock and grieving😢
I'm so sorry :(
Tough one man. Sorry for your loss.
She was blessed to have good people like you, who cared about her. Very tragic accident. Condolences, thoughts and prayers to family and friends ... ^v^
Sad.... I know how you feel, as your presence would have likely resulted in an uneventful flight disabling the AP and hand flying the duration after first trouble. We can't be everywhere at all times.
Thanks for the insight David! Thanks for sharing. Deepest condolences.
“In over her head” is exactly what I was thinking Juan. She appeared to be totally befuddled .
Confidently so, however- I noticed someone criticized her use of autopilot. One of her last vids, she responded w the 🙄 emoji…
@@mertonallowicious Now THAT says a LOT!
Am I the only one who noticed how seldom she scanned for traffic?
@@loudidier3891 scanned for traffic? She hardly looked out the windows at all...she seemed to always have her head in her iPad.
@@countryfence8111
ADSB will save you
A
Dumb
Shit
(on) Board
Your last sentence summed it up perfectly. "A new pilot in a complex aircraft".
all aircraft are complex. some more than others. but all flying is complex.
1965 isn't complex
Almost anything more than fixed gear low power trainers and bush planes are considered complex
@everythingpony
@@everythingpony well the auto pilot seemed a little too complex for TNFlygirl.
Yupp
You've helped me understand. She was programming it to fly at a given attitude with the buttons. Then she was losing airspeed because she didn't understand she had to manually apply power. So she was fighting the AP with manual trim to keep airspeed. And finally she overpowered the Autopilot by hand with 50% down trim and couldn't figure out the mistake and correct it before they crashed.
you said what he never properly said btw......
At least not that I heard.
:)
I just don't understand how you miss that you need more throttle to climb.
Like, that's even baked into driving. If you don't throttle up when climbing a hill, you lose speed.
@@dafunkmonster well, she wasn't a good driver either. Rolling stop signs during a filmed driving video.
@@SteveSwags You're an ass
@@dafunkmonster Task saturation, because she has to "think" how to do literally everything her brain just cannot keep up and is dropping off items to cope.
As a former flight instructor, it’s crazy to me that she was at a stage of doing IFR training and that she was even signed off to fly solo despite the fact that she didn’t even understand the basics of climb and descent. Some of the blame of this accident must fall on her instructor/s.
Even as a non-pilot AvGeek it surprises me that she was signed off solo if she didn’t understand pitch. Even I understand that nose down means more speed so you need less thrust, and nose up means less speed so you need more thrust to compensate. Astonishing.
The instructor videos sound more like one of those "Learn to Fly!" deals where it's not actual instruction, it's just a charter flight where the 'student' is allowed to take the controls for a while.
Tragic. I won't pretend to know her regiment in training. Appears less UA-cam more professional inflight/land based training would have helped. RIP.
That looks like spatial disorientation. But not the IMC kind, the kind that comes from flying head down.
How do you not know the basics of climb and descent? I started learning that on day 1.
Another arm chair quarterback here (100hrs in a Cessna 172S with & without G1000).
I've read some of the comments and I like your analysis of her previous videos. What I noticed also was so much for her to manage in the cockpit. tablets, cameras, flight controls, basic avionics, communications and this auto-pilot; doing all of this I noticed she was not looking outside of the aircraft - so distracted; red flat #1. I have had this experience myself and I get how exhausting/dangerous it is to chase the plane - I was lucky to have an instructor with me and it became a wonderful training opportunity.
Assumption: It seems like she looked at other you-tubers who flys planes and she tried to copying them, chasing content. The concern I have with that is problems, errors or breakdowns make for good content. I did have the thought, did she allow the plane to get out of hand a bit so she can post a video on the shocking flight she just had and how she saved the day? She has a previous thumbnail where she also had a collision with another aircraft, good content but high risk.
With the massive distraction of the tech inside of the aircraft. The previous flight instructor picked up on all of this and was filling in the gaps by being a leader that she wasn't; red flag #2. His only failing was the inability to coach her - or her inability to take the coaching.
Her comment at around 400 hours of experience on not understanding basic operations of a aircraft was shocking; red flag #3.
Her instinct on going back to basics was good (I doubt that was her idea, maybe the new instructor). What was missing was grounding herself and/or doing basic re-training in a simple aircraft like a Cessna 172 or a Piper equivalent - taking all of the distraction away. No Cameras, No tablet, No nav aids and No autopilot. To me she needed to re-certify her privilege of solo then area solo without tech.
Long post, thank you if you read it all.
I was thinking all the exact same things! And being a UA-camr requires hours of time to edit, upload, film, adjust cameras and batteries, it s a serious thing. Like have a discovery channel show but with no crew. No nothing. Just you. It's a full time job. Not to mention answering comments and engaging amd "collaborating". The hundreds of hours she spent on YT content should have been spent on flight forums and education/ training/ theory. This was a self induced wound.
Yeah, taking a look at her youtube presence... you gotta wonder if blending general aviation with being a beautiful, fabulous social media influencer is all that good of an idea. I imagine she spent as much time getting her hair and makeup "did" before the flight, as study.
I’m fairly low time in 172s and Da40s like you. (200 ish hours over a year and a half of getting PPL and working toward instrument). Looking at her IG it looks like she only got PPL a year or so ago. Seems like a lot of hours to only have a PPL, right?
Your dumb for leaving a long comment on UA-cam.
Unfortunately there’s a couple of other UA-camr pilots whose time is coming.
To put this into layman's speak, she was trying to drive a car without knowing how to use the steering wheel or brake/accelerator pedals... Relying solely on lane-centering and radar cruise control. Truely amazing.
Neither that to drive up a hill you have to add accelerator
You described that all very well. I am a retired 747 Cargo Pilot and many times I have just for training flown without Auto Pilot for Hours at a time. Very simple to depend on, fly on Auto Pilot but very hard to have second nature flying without it. A pilot license regardless of how many hours or years you have flown is only a License to learn how to fly. I always on bad overcast weather days cringed when I instituted Auto Land and kept very diligent following on the controls and instruments to insure a safe and effective operation. I have seen Autoland malfunction 50' from the runway and disengage it and go around. I landed in the EU once with bad weather reports from everyone including the tower and Pi-reps with winds in the wrong direction over 40 degrees off at FRA and 30 Knots of additional cross winds. I did have to land almost sideways, and I took out 6 tires but no other damage, but I slid on an Icey Runway and did not stall a wing with power to the Left engines then brought up Thrust reversers to the Right engines and then the Left it took 10,000 feet to stop. and I shut the runway down for hours while they changed tires. It was bad control tower operators, Faulty equipment at FRA and a Non Landable situation. I used one of my 9 Lifes. That is why Training and correct training is absolutely the most important thing in Flying. You never mess with Mother Nature. My Co-Pilot filed a complaint on my Tactics, but the investigation and Flight recorder showed different. I have 24,000 Hours on 747's Cargo and you have to have the feel of them like you would have on a Cessna 150. Just my opinion and I did get an award from Boeing for doing the Impossible Landing. No damage other than tires and some wheel damage after the mandatory inspection. No one else ever passed the simulator test for that landing ever, as far as I know. I retired 4 years later but passed on the simulator 4 out of 5 times that I re-flew it. Long story have a nice day and sorry for her loss it hurts the community. Be aware of complex Aircraft they will fool you and always turn on the Pitot Tube Heat LOL. Fly as much as you are willing to off auto pilot it trains you.
Thank -you for the great Story reminds of Capt. Sully Landing on the Hudson ;)
if he had not had the years of experience the outcome would have been very sad and different ;)
Yea, good thing flight hours are not recorded by hand flying only. Pilots that fly nothing but IFR with autopilot should get back in a 172 once in awhile with no right seater other than an maybe an instructor.
Thankyou very much for sharing this with us. The comments are as valuable as the sad results above.
I still remember my first flight (3 years old) in a Dakota from Johannesburg SA to Santa Carolina Island off Mozambique. The pilot was a German who went on to fly B747's for Lufthansa.
Years ago, I did a lot of flying as a passenger. I would say that I have used up 3 of my 9 lives.
I was in a B747-400 that was spat out of a thunderstorm over the Congo. We dropped vertically tail first, and to this day I can still remember the power plants at full military power.
The pilots had to hand fly us back to Europe as the auto pilots had failed.
I don't know if this lady did this but maybe MS FlightSim might have helped her gain some understanding of what she was trying to do. Kind regards, and greetings from Africa.
That landing sounds incredible! Great Great Job!!! And the fact that you repeated it in the simulator is insane, I'm in awe!
that is scary My CFI was an older grump guy but he MADE me do all the work and let me know when I had screwed up and what the fixes were.. Guy saved me more times after I had my license than I could ever thank him for...
Good man.
The fact that he had to save you at all shows you shouldn’t even have been in the air
@@sethtenrec - I think he meant the lessons he learned from him got him out of potential dangerous situations.
@@sethtenrecLook! It’s Mr. Perfect!
@@parajerry yes, he did mean that, but what’s a clown like that doing getting into “dangerous situations” in the air in the first place? People live underneath these rich boys (and girls) playing in their toys.
As a Knoxville Bonanza debonair pilot, this loss obviously hit home. Sadly, local pilots knew that she was weak. Your analysis of the auto pilot and how it worked and pointing out the distractions and the several videos that she linked were excellent therefore, I gave a first donation. Thanks for the hard work.
And nobody spoke up? Shame.
Controllers who work combined TRACON/Tower operations, especially, in an area for many years will almost inevitably encounter a training case, or a few, that become reputed for this--dozens of hours that become triple-digit time without having mastered some of the essential skills. They get attention because they are hazardous no matter where or what the student may be flying, but obviously the more complex or higher performance the aircraft involved is, the greater the potential of it getting away from them. I remember a discussion with our local FSDO about these cases initiated by a control facility supervisor after one near-disaster in my area. It is not easy to know exactly how to handle them because there are some instructors and examiners who are too ready to consign students to the wash-out pile while others are too ready to enable a likely disaster. I'm sorry that this situation was not handled successfully there. It would probably be helpful for those who were the most familiar with her training, etc., to have a discussion with your FSDO about your impressions and concerns (that would be the Nashville office).
@@ReflectedMiles Some may say being an internet sensation may contribute to this but maybe everyone should be filming themselves so that they can be evaluated and help correct training problems before they end up in a crash.. I know nothing about the field but it does seem that this could be a valuable tool for anyone in many fields especialy when its life and death...I always wanted to fly but i just don't trust myself that much...
@@chuckthebull Aviation is a critical enough area that direct, hands-on instruction, supervision, and evaluation are essential. Some instructors and evaluators will use a video record to verify what exactly occurred afterwards (human memory / perception are not perfect) or to show the student what was happening as recorded objectively by a camera and/or microphone, but in situations like this it is a woefully insufficient tool on its own to identify and correct what is happening, and of course it can become a serious distraction if the pilot's thoughts are also on video production and not just on flying.
Incredible.
She was more focused and worried about her cameras than her training!!
lights camera sunglasses hair...........check !!!!!
@@dks13827 lol no better way to describe it.
I started a degree in Aviation and wanted more than anything to become a commercial pilot. I lived and breathed aviation; it was everything to me. After one year of flight training, I was informed that it was evident to the instructors and the Chief Flight Instructor (CFI) that I was struggling with anxiety, and my memory recall was limited. I was heartbroken to be told (gently) that commercial flying might not be my calling. I heeded the advice and discontinued flight training. Ten years later, I now clearly understand that I have higher than normal anxiety levels, and it does affect my performance under pressure. Nevertheless, my love for aviation persists.
Just fly for UA-cam clout
Did you ever consider getting a single engine license or something? I'm sure there are numerous private pilots with severe anxiety issues that go their whole lives without a serious issue. Also, obviously I domt know you, but I would bet there is a very good chance your memory recall problems were tied to your anxiety and could be overcome.
If you don’t think counseling or therapy may help then maybe you could feed your love for aviation with flight simulators or perhaps RC model aircraft. If an aviation museum is nearby they are always in need of volunteers.
Bottom line is aviation is a big tent and there are lots of ways to get involved 😀
Very big tent. A&P here after FAA refused my medical. Have friends and relatives who are ATP captains at Majors. I live vicariously through them 😅
@@PenskePC17 yes I finished a private pilots licence. And every once in awhile I'll go for a small flight with an instructor 👌
This young lady is from right down the street from me. She flew out of our small airport here in Knoxville. I spoke with her on occasion when I saw her Beech, since I owned an older Bonanza V tail which I flew almost 20 years as my personal aircraft. So as a lover of Beechcrafts, I naturally was interested in her Debonaire. The Debonaire flies a bit like the Bonanza. High performance, but I’m gonna go ahead and say it, a LOT of airplane for a low time pilot! Additionally, she was right at that deadly 400 hour mark. More accidents happen at around 400 hours TT, than ever prior. This is the amount of time when new pilots usually start becoming way overconfident. Regardless of that, it was way to much aircraft for her. Didn’t she have any guidance when buying it? Why not a 172 for a few more hundred hours? The Bonanza and Debonair have certain characteristics. One of them is VERY light controls. It feels like a Lear jet on the yoke. (And ends at the yoke! Lol) seriously though, extremely light controls. This is what gave my V tail its notorious name, the “doctor killer”, and a bad rap for the tail breaking off. When in truth, doctors with more money than flying experience but more aircraft than they could handle. Fly in into IMC because they’re unable to keep up with the aircraft mentally, (like Jenny and most others when moving up), well they get into IMC, enter a grave yard spiral, and the light forces they pull back on the yoke! The spiral tightens, the aircraft in a clean one, hard to slow down, so redlines and when they pull back it would break the tail off.
Now with Jenny and her plane, I just have to say I disagree with so much today with newer pilots and instructors! It really upsets me!! I mean look, WHY in the hell, was she trying to use the autopilot anyway???
I flew ALL through the 1980’s, and 90’s and you know what? NONE of the general aviation aircraft EVER had autopilots then!! Maybe a wind leveler, maybe! But, WHY the hell are new, low time pilots trying to use autopilot anyway? It makes no sense! Especially on a short flight from Knoxville to Nashville!
My Bonanza didn’t have autopilot, and I used to fly it from Vermont to Miami, or to New Orleans regularly! Hand flying all the way. What’s happened to pilots, that they all have to use “autopilot” these days? Is that because they were computer flyers and those games all have autopilot? It’s just stupid. It really is.
Especially when you’re trying to get your instrument rating, and still taking lessons.
When we went for our check rides back then, having never used autopilots, by the time we were ready for an IFR check ride, we could hand fly the aircraft in true IFR conditions, handle the radio, have our paper charts out, be digging out paper approach plates from our Jeppeson binder, clipping it to the yoke, and doing ALL those things effortlessly WHILE ALSO hand flying the aircraft, maintaining course and altitude etc..
In other words, if she’s getting her instrument rating on those lessons, she should already be at the point she can handle that aircraft so well, she can do it almost without even thinking about it, while multitasking doing all the other things. But now, all navigation is done for you on a moving map with GPS, and these new pilots STILL can’t even handle the basic controls of the aircraft. It’s unbelievable, and makes me angry. I’m sorry for the rant, but poor training like this, and student pilots with their whole perception of flying messed up now days, and the result is good people die. It’s so tragic and SO needless.
Again, she shouldn’t have even been using that autopilot, and she shouldn’t have even wanted to!! She tells her poor dad, “watch my airspeed”… I guess with new pilots all wanting “glass panels” now, these pilots aren’t even taught how to do a proper instrument scan anymore!!
Bottom line: At a few hundred hours, or 400 hours still taking lessons, new pilots should WANT to be hand flying the plane. Not to mention they NEED to! Throw the damn AP out the window. Learn to fly the aircraft! Yourself! Until you’re so good at it, you can do it almost subconsciously . FORGET the panel!
And lastly, WHY now days and HOW, are all the new young pilots buying and own such expensive aircraft?
People taking PPL lessons in a Malibu Mirage for heavens sake? 300 hours and buying a high performance Beechcraft?
Is anyone telling these people that’s a good way to kill themselves? You buy an aircraft you can handle. If you’re rich, and a new pilot, you don’t buy the most expensive you can afford, unless you want to die. Your experience has to move up with the aircraft. You don’t go from a Cessna 150 and then buy a King Air just cus u can afford it!!
The other thing is, this young lady and the airport is right up the street from me. I just happened upon this video today, some 4 days after her death and had heard nothing about it or even the crash. So it’s news to me as I write this, and terribly upsetting. And on her videos you can see clearly that she ways behind the aircraft. She’s not keeping up with it, and that’s not at all surprising. Such a terrible shame!!
PS* As I said above, the flight controls on this aircraft are extremely sensitive. An absolute dream to fly for an experienced pilot with a light touch. In addition, the elevator trim wheels it’s right in front of the pilots right knee. The rudder & aileron trim is on the yoke. The elevator trim is a large plastic/bakelite white wheel. It’s incredibly sensitive. And the Debonair needs to be trimmed frequently as does the V tail Bonanza. And her power setting if 15” manifold pressure? “Watch my airspeed” while playing with the autopilot? 🤯🤯🤯
A good. Raise setting is 24” manifold on the IO-470 Continental. (24 squared (24” MP & 2400rpm or 24MP -2300rpm) actually is a good setting for high cruise speed)
But each time you trim this plane, it picks up a few additional knots, and lifts the nose a touch, so it requires another trim, but once you get it tweaked in, it performs very well.
As someone who got my certificate in the '80s I totally agree with your refreshing comments!
My family owned an F33 and a B55 Baron. Airplanes i could never afford, but i flew them well. I was a CFII by the time we had these airplanes and I hand flew them everywhere, despite the KFC55 system with a fancy flight director. Went into Midway KMDW, and even O Hare in the days before reservations were needed. "keep your speed up please" was the order from Chicago approach, so we just hand the flew the airplanes and slowed then down inside the marker. The F33 with the IO-520 was just a hot rod with amazing handling. I was well trained with a CFI Dad, so i was lucky to have someone constantly checking in on my flying. Sad accident in VFR weather.
I agree with you however this generation seems to prefer driverless. Scares the hell out of me.
It’s called ‘Death by GPS’ : an over-reliance on electronics and GPS without having mastered basic navigation.
Very well said... It's the same with cars nowadays. I may sound like an old f*rt, but my first car had no power steering, no ABS, no satnav, lane holder, or other useless electronic gimmiky stuff - and I had to learn drive it in the dry, wet, snow and icy conditions. Nowadays, you get so many electric and electronic gizmos that you have to learn to "program" the car rather then drive it. At least, a car can be stopped on the side of the road to figure stuff out, opposite to a plane.
I was the Technical Service rep for the company that made the Century 2000 Autopilot. Juan pretty well explained the operation of the system but I wanted clarify the PITCH MODIFIER buttons on the controller. Pressing and holding the button would change the aircraft's ATTITUDE .7 degrees per second. Upon button release the autopilot would hold that attitude.
Thank you! Not a pilot, but I am an aerospace engineer, and I was very confused about the explanation of those button. Your clarification is very helpful and makes a lot more sense.
I've never used that autopilot but one of you has obviously got to be wrong about the attitude buttons. I have to think you are right Scott. Thanks for writing. I'm going to have to read the manual now just for curiosity.
Yes Scott, you are of course correct about .7 degrees/second. I think we both recalled that fact rather quickly.
How are you sir?
Kevin J
@scottcollins6179 - Scott, I guess I should read the manual, but does this mean that the AP is also reliant on the attitude indicator? How does the pressure transducer come into play?
@@dermickneeded more training
When I was in the Air Force I was taught that there are three ways to screw up 1- do something you don't know how to do. 2- Being taught how to do something but decide that you know a better way (ignoring established procedures, "short cuts") 3- get distracted and let something more important than the primary task at hand dominate your attention. I was not a rated officer but was qualified in EOD.
Ammo!
@@jonkunnu8792 EOD isn't Ammo
@@jonkunnu8792 Explosive Ordnance Disposal
You've never seen anyone follow procedure until you've seen EOD.
@@ninjaswordtothehead EXACTLY!
A great explanation of what possibly happened. I appreciate your incredible breakdown of her apparent knowledge. Thanks for walking us through this.
*her apparent ignorance
Juan, I think you nailed it. I'll bet they find the trim jack screw in the full down position or close to it. Her lack of AP system knowledge and lack of trust in the system lead to this. I looked at the data, specifically the last excursion and came to the conclusion that she was watching the airspeed drop and seeing the trim light she was trimming down(maybe the wrong way). At around 100 knots and increasing force on the AP clutch fighting the trim tab force, the clutch slipped. She finally gave up on the AP and disconnected it. The AP servo was pulling with 10 lb. force up to fight the down trim, and this was at low speed where aerodynamic trim tab forces are less. There was 10 lb. down force from the trim and the loss of 10 lb. up force from the servo, so she would have needed to pull back 20 lb. force and that trim force would be increasing quickly with airspeed. Even if she knew what was happening at this point, she would have had to hold 20 + lb. and increasing with one hand and spinning the trim wheel with the other. Who's got the throttle? When the picture is not clear in your head and you are really stressed you can just lock up. Very sad situation.
exactly!!!! yes. well said
Your math doesn't add up. Loss of 10ob up force by AP would require the pilot to provide that 10lb up force to maintain equilibrium, not 20 lb
Yes, you are correct. The pilot would only have to replace the AP force. But still that's quite a sudden trim change. You would think they could pull out.@@CatInTheHand
As a commercial /instrument pilot myself, this poor pilot never should have passed a checkride. Clearly she was overwhelmed. Sad to hear.
The problem with flying being a rich man (or woman's) endeavor is that money tends to "fill in the gaps" where skill otherwise lacks.
People keep blaming the CFI, but how rigorous was the oral exam for her check ride? Where's the DPE in all this? She didn't give herself a PPL...
@dannyr7631
Sadly, it appears to be the case😢......
@@dannyr7631The toys aren't the issue; it was her dependence on them. In turbulent or low (or both) IMC approach, I shut a lot of that crap off and fly the plane. Radio altimeter and needles are just fine and gets me home.
It was a clear blue day. What are you all talking about?
Great report. So sad when there is loss of life. My thoughts and condolences to her family - especially her mum who lost a daughter and a husband.
More worried about cameras and UA-cam than learning to fly. Doctor Killer strikes again.
The doctor killer was the beachcraft bonanza. The split tail demon.
Even if this turns out NOT to be the reason why, the analysis and mentorship in this video is GOLD and will save lives.
Trust thing I would look at would be muffeler , sound like CO.
ABSOLUTELY
I won't forget this stuff, and I've never flown a plane, and never plan to, lol
No it won’t. Darwin will have another date with a social media whore seeking attention. NEXT!
I agree, read and first understand the instruction manual, those basic functions and how the ATT and ALT controls and the UP/DN buttons interact switching modes has to be demonstrated showing just how this trim adjustment error could manifest if one doesn’t understand the AP system.
Absolutely right about trim forces. Beech Travelair I was flying had an autopilot issue causing ever-increasing pitch oscillations. I just let it go to see how far it would progress before I felt the need to disengage the autopilot. When I did disengage, it took a surprisingly large force to hold attitude while re-trimming. Easy to see this ending badly with an inexperienced pilot facing such a situation without expecting it.
Just want to ask if you don’t mind…
Is the issue the plane tries to trim for a specific direction while also pitching in the opposing direction (cancelling forces out)? So when AP releases and the counter-mis-trimmed force stops the remaining mid-trim alone forces the nose to whichever direction?
In this instance, the AP was driving the trim, and when I disengaged on a downgoing part of the sequence, the trim remained, of course, fairly well down. Quite different to the accident scenario, where the trim and AP were independent of each other, and the AP annunciator would call for trim by the pilot. Hope that clears it up a little.@@Screamblade_
@@alancampbell1161 ohhhh. Thank you greatly!
@@alancampbell1161even with power pulled back the large amt of trim makes pulling that hard while rapidly undoing the manual trim? How much is this condition exacerbated by power on? Thanks.
@@gregdildine99 airspeed would be the factor that would increase the force needed, such as in a dive.
Among other things, I love the way you start the video and get right into it. Thank you.
Back in 1973, at the age of 26, I attended Culver Military Academy Avaition Summer School. I was trained in a Cherokee 140 and soloed from Fleet Field (Culver)to Valparaiso, Indiana. Prior to my first solo, the instructors DEMANDED an aspiring pilot demonstrate COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE before soloing.
Back then, the Cherokee 140 was very basic. You could rent one for $10/hour; add an instructor, it was $28/hour.
To me, flying was easy, but at the age of 16, I listened to my instructors respected the fact one bad mistake would be my last mistake. Culver made sure we understood weather and how it could kill you. All my classmates eligible to solo, did so. The training was terrific.
If I ever won the lottery, I once considered going back to flying. But when I look at today’s small aircraft avionics in small and shake my head. If I win that lottery, I’m flying first-class with a professional!
By the way, I found your UA-cam channel by accident. I like it and became a subscriber.
Correctionon my earlier post. “Back in 1973, at the age of SIXTEEN (16), I attended Culver Miliyary Academy…….”
I went to tennis camp at Culver the summer of '79. The best instructor I ever had playing tennis. Was impressed that they had a flying school.
@@marcenalamb7294 The flight training was top shelf for high school aged kids. Unfortunately, a terrible tragedy occurred resulting in the death of a student and instructor; after experiencing engine failure and crash landing on Lake Maxinkuckee , both perished. This happened in the mid-2000s.
I'm not a pilot, but happened to randomly watch this video and read a lot of the comments. I've never seen a more intelligent comment section. Props to you, pilots.
😂 same and it really is
Same, I was just thinking how respectful these comments are.
THE PURPOSE OF THE PROPELLER IS TO KEEP THE PILOT COOL. SAD ABOUT THE LOSS OF ANY LIFE IN MY AVIATION COMMUNITY.
Pilots are trained individuals who know that they never stop learning. Hence, we are always eager and respectful to use your words because we want to learn from the mistakes of others..
Condolences to the family 🙏 🕯
In our non-technical skills courses at work (I drive trains) we talk about the four stages of competence.
1: Unconscious incompetence (you don’t know what you don’t know)
2: Conscious incompetence (you know what you don’t know)
3: Continuous competence (you know your stuff)
4: Unconscious competence (you know your stuff, but you don’t think about it).
The key is learning your stuff, keeping competent, and knowing about it. Stage 4 is as dangerous as stage 1 because you stop thinking about it. This is where assessment and continuous development play their part in keeping you consciously competent.
1,000%. And it takes some humbleness/humility (opposite of what makes the Dunning Kruger problem) to go through all those.
GREAT explanation. Thanks for sharing.
Great comparison….same four competency states apply equally well to aviation
I well remember in flight training having issues with landing, the reason being that he and I interpreted the words he used to explain things, slightly differently. I went out with a different instructor, discovered my issue, and the problem was gone. I can’t imagine flying with the distraction of multiple cameras running in the cockpit, but I can imagine the sense of terror as the situation went beyond her ability to cope. My autopilot did a couple odd things in my Mooney, and I would just shut it off and (as my instructor always said), fly the plane! It’s amazing how much we trust things like autopilot or GPS not to lead us into trouble. May this video be a cautionary tale to all pilots.
I watched one of her previous videos on another channel and it looked like she was about as good as I was flying my first couple times in MSFS. How this woman clearly had no clue how seriously bad she was at flying an airplane, this might have been prevented. RIP to her and her father.
Right? and her dad was clearly not being honest with her if in fact he was a pilot for years as she claimed...
But she was pretty….. that overcomes all, right?
@@earlycuyler4019 holy shit, dude, she was a beast with drawn on eyebrows. she was anything byt pretty and a pilot.
How was she allowed a pilots license? She flys like she doesn't have a clue. Lack of training!!!!!
Emotional wreck, trying to aviate , sad
“Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.” - Captain A. G. Lamplugh
I had that saying on one of those motivational posters on my cubicle wall while I was training for my private pilot license
Supposedly neither are African Americans
@@suzyrottencrotch5132dang woman, single motherhood got you bitter eh?
@@user-ms7fg6sd4j no I got my 3rd dui with bodily injury and had to waste a bunch of money to register a Tesla to someone else so I can still drink and drive. Aside from that all is good :)
the most dangerous part of any flight is always the drive to the airport
I was part of the team that developed and certified the Century 2000 Autopilot system and I could not have explained its functions any better myself. Excellent job as usual Juan.
Over my many years working for the manufacture of this autopilot, I had many opportunities to train pilots on its use. I won't say I've seen it all but certainly too much.
I have also been involved in accident investigations involving other autopilots models from the same manufacturer. In those cases, the root cause was autopilot miss management as well. I think you are right on track to suspect some sort of missed trimmed situation that precipitated this accident. And, in my opinion, its not the actual miss trimmed control forces that can't be overcome as much as the extreme distraction and confusion such a situation causes. I believe pilots misdiagnose the problem as "I can't disengage the autopilot" when in reality the autopilot is disengaged. The remaining high control forces from an out of trim aircraft cause them to put all their efforts into finding a way to disengage the autopilot, which is of course fruitless at best and fatal at worst.
During STC certification flights, trim runaway analysis requires placing the plane in power dives with as much as 60 lbs of back pressure on the controls to maintain redline. Yes, I said back pressure. Surviving those test took lots of planning, preparation and mental fortitude. So its not hard to understand how a moderately to severely miss trimmed situation could go wrong in a hurry for a low time pilot, or most pilots in IMC conditions. The irony of this accident is that this version of the Century 2000 didn't have electric trim, as you so accurately explained. So if miss trimming was a contributing factor, it had to have been missed trimmed by the pilot, manually. I have my suspicions about how that might have started.
Bingo
@@jamesw.6931 That's my question, just fly it? Flying straight and level is the first thing we learn....
It looks like that AP manual is around 60 pages long. She could’ve been an expert if she had just read it one hour each morning over a long weekend.
@@jamesw.6931 I believe the issue highlighted by Juan and Kevin is that, when she decided to “fly the plane”, she was out of trim and mistakenly believed that the autopilot was still fighting her. This led to useless attempts to disconnect the already disconnected autopilot, instead of fixing the trim problem with the trim wheel.
Would it not be reasonable then to offer criticism of the auto-pilot manual?
Surely these sorts of situations should be covered and explained in the auto-pilot manual.
I know NOTHING about flying, but this guy is GOOD.
10/10.
I know NOTHING about guys, but this 10/10 is flying.
GOOD.
@@viralgayguy
GOOD 1.
ty for the analysis, hopefully helps others. just wanted to point out that correct term for a switch that stays engaged after pressing is "latching", and "momentary" switches only engage while being pressed.
As an AME it’s terrifying how little some pilots know about the aircraft and systems that their lives depend on.
🙏🏽I definitely had the same thought ….
Most airline pilots that I've met as an A&P mechanic have an excellent grasp of their type's systems. I've seen mechanics get a little smug with the pilots only to be shut down by the pilot's actual knowledge of his or her aircraft. However.......we are seeing a LOT of brand new airline pilots and some of their log pages are sketchy. "The head-up display is missing a cue." WHICH head-up display.....there are TWO.
Same thing goes for any vehicle, it's very important to know your machine, for sure.
The problem is that there is just a severe abundance of disinterested instructors who are only looking to build hours so that they can move on to more lucrative gigs. They don't even want to be training, they just feel that this is part of " paying your dues"
Can I message you privately? I have a question about getting my class 3
First of all, I appreciate your in depth analysis. As for the C2000 autopilot, I like what you said, crosscheck annunciator. Reminds me of what my MD80 instructor said, the push buttons are what you told your wife, the FMA (annuciators) are what she heard
There's a Blast from the Past! My 72 & 73 IP's said the same thing ... 🤕 ^v^
That's a great one, I'm going to use that doing OE with new crew members at my company!
I have all her videos downloaded. Writing was on the wall.
She died because her first cfi was a simp.
@@jasonbender2459 I believe that
@@jasonbender2459 and he got paid...
Please consider uploading. I just discovered this woman and now I wanna do a deep dive.
please make a torrent and upload to the piracy sites
By far best analysis I have seen on this accident.
Very sad story, but not uncommon, and I recognise myself in some of it. 30 years ago I was a 400-hour private pilot who had become far too dependant on my autopilot, and it took one tough instructor to work that out of me. He taught me to never use the autopilot because you can’t do without it, only to assist with the routine of flying while you do more complex stuff. And always be ready and able to take over AS SOON AS something feels out of whack. That saved my bacon more than once.
And know and understand why your equipment does and behaves as it does at a root cause level. In the example shown, she started going into phugoid oscillation before she realized she needed to disconnect autopilot, never trimming attitude and power at all.
And in the accident flight, the path suggests she went full bore in and likely wasn't able to figure out what was wrong.
And really, it still comes down to basics. If you're having control issues while trying to operate with your electronic buzzard catcher turned on, turn the damned thing off and go back to stick, rudder, feel and instruments.
Because, much like an approach, once stabilized, one can play with a lot of things that otherwise wouldn't make sense playing with while not stable.
Because, arm wrestling with ill behaving equipment, be it due to operator error or malfunction is not aviating, it's scrambling in response and increasing the chances of a fatal error chain initiation. That's true on any equipment, not only aircraft.
Yeah well, CFI’s these days don’t give a crap about students. They just want their flight time, and off to the airlines.
I leaned to fly IFR with no autopilot or GPS. This was in 2002.
Reference “Children of the Magenta”
I’ve never touched an autopilot in my 227 hours of flying with private instrument currently working on commercial. Everything has been hand flown, it’s because of my cfi’s. They didn’t let me get sucked in. Someday obviously autopilot will come, but i prefer to hand fly. Also this will engrave it into your head to always make sure you are configured, and coordinated before ever touching that ap button. Also if you are confident to say enough, this autopilot is whacked, i need to disconnect, and just hand fly. Being able to recover, from something going wrong, and hand flying is huge
Juan, personally I didn’t follow this young lady on UA-cam. However, just from watching your analysis video; I foresee the FAA having some serious talk(s) with ANYBODY that gave her instruction. Looks like she was way behind the autopilot AND the aircraft. Don’t think she was at a level of aeronautical knowledge required to operate this aircraft. Another sad unfortunate loss of life. My condolences to family, other loved ones & friends.
Too much airplane for her level of experience.
At 400 hours....she should've been able to handle this airplane IF she was actually aviating and not worried about her UA-cam content.... as noted when she was up with her Instrument Instructor...."adjusting the camera near the glareshield and looking back at the aft camera"!!! What a shame!!!
Just glancing at her YT channel site, it appears that her dad (who was with her) was the one she cited as her flight instructor. It appears that she bought this plane about 1-2 months ago and had posted a "my mistake, I'll take the blame" video at that time. I know nothing about flying, but your comment about "...anybody that gave her instruction" led me to make this observation.
Agree 100%
She was struggling with fundamental aspects of aviation. She mentioned in her video about the new instructor that he took her back to basics.
@@demef758 Her father was not a pilot. Or at least that's what Juan said in this video.
She had a new instructor who took her back to basics. But it appears she was still flying on her own (or with her father).
Thanks! Appreciate the detailed analysis. I am private pilot in training and this type of analysis aids my training.
Overconfident yet under trained rich Americans smashing their light aircraft into the ground. It’s a whole new YT genre
Used to fly this autopilot in a Mooney M20F. The manual required a test prior to every flight. Why the autopilot wasn’t disconnected and hand flown is something we’ll never know. Hate to hear about these accidents. Fly safe
Just speculation but she seemed to be dependent on assistance flying and was always behind the plane. Seemed like she was using AP as a crutch and was not the well versed/capable hand flying. Just a bad situation altogether.
@@slap929 Yeah I agree.
@slap929 More like the AP was flying the plane, and _she_ was just the back-up. 😟
Doesn't even pull her hair back either. Looking for clicks. AP had issues and she ran out of talent.
"...Why the autopilot wasn’t disconnected and hand flown..." Excellent. That's what I would have done.
I never used the autopilot during my instrument ride years ago. I felt it was incumbent upon me to demonstrate I could do it all myself.
Not a pilot but former Navy with lots of pilot friends and I was always told to be very careful if anyone with 4 to 500 hours wants to take me flying because it's the most dangerous time in the learning progression and it's where people get overconfident. RIP to this pilot and her father. Very sad.
Automobile drivers - first 6 months need experience. Some new drivers have even become air borne, or find trees. :(.
UA-cam channel- Probable Cause with Dan Gryder has some great videos about pilots. Dan is also an instructor and he explains about bad decisions pilots make and how to learn about their mistakes.
Ex-Navy Ex-pilot Ex-racer .. the same can be said for motorcycle riders as well. The Dunning-Kruger effect applies to many things and many topics. It is a part of human nature that should never be ignored.
Yup. The Killing Zone by Paul Craig states that.
That's not necessarily true. It's all about proficiency. If a pilot is proficient in a plane they fly (and its equipment) and comms, checks (preflight, weight & balance, performance), USE CHECKLIST, they can be super safe to fly with
And opposite can be true for 500+ hr pilots - they also can have so called "macho" attitude and fly very unsafely
My 16 year old daughter is taking lessons. Trim and power is all the instructor is teaching her. Thank you for this video, I will stay on her about understanding the fundamentals and why's/how's.
Is she going to make sure her hair and makeup are perfect for her uploads too?😂😂😂😂
She was worried more about her hair and cameras than her flying.
I’m just a PPL A with a night rating and lapsed IR(R) that rents from a local flying club here in the U.K. My instructor wouldn’t let me use the simple S-TEC 30 in our club aircraft until I could “teach” him how it worked.
I studied the books, practiced on the ground, and when I was happy I guided him through its operation and limitations.
As an ex airline pilot, my instructor admitted I’d shown him some things he’d forgotten or didn’t know about that simple auto-pilot.
I think that’s the best way to get people to learn: if you can’t teach someone else about a thing, you don’t fully understand it yourself.
My take on this (my dad was a pilot and he loved the bonanza especially, so I'm familier with flying in a Beechcraft but otherwise don't yet have any flight training) is that she must have viewed the autopilot as sort of a form of complex cruise control.
As an everyday person seeing her press and hold on that button strongly implied that she thought she could use it to adjust the altitude, as the video seems to hypothesize. Similar to how a person would press the cruise control button a couple of times in a car or truck to reduce the set speed.
I can see where she was coming from, on that.
It likely baffled her as to why the problems were arising.
Truest words ever spoken: "Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you're good at it!"
And that is the very reason I chose not pursue recreational flying. Just wasn't in my skill set.
But I loved my career as a flight attendant!
yes!!! watching this video - it's really not surprising that she crashed that plane - i have to question the requirements of these pilots - she clearly shouldn't have been flying that plane alone- sad story - may she and her dad rest in peace - thoughts go out to family and friends.
This video should be watched by anyone planning to get checked out in a high performance single, or anyone familiarizing themselves with the autopilot system on their aircraft. Excellent analysis, clearly presented.
Thanks for linking your videos both ways 🎉
It is so sad to learn of this accident. My condolence's to the family. Many-many years ago there was an early GA autopilot made by the TacAir company, called the 1. 2 or 3. I had brought a Cessna 182 out from the factory to the dealer and then was asked to deliver it to the new owner in a small town close to Portland, Or, (PDX). So i headed out of KPSC in late August, after a full day starting at 0600 and continuing until take off at 1700. We headed west into a blazing sun and very warm 90 F afternoon. This airplane had a TacAir T-3 autopilot, today it would be considered very rudimentary, but it could hold altitude, turn to a course and I believe follow a GS; and for GA it was fantastic improvement. I, at 18, and a fresh commercial pilot certificate considered myself lucky to be able to fly with an airplane with it installed. Half way to PDX I set up the course and altitude and....promptly fell asleep , thanks to the big ball in the sky beating my eyes closed at that time of afternoon. I was VFR, at I think 10,500 feet, clear of most mountains and on we went. That is until, for some unknown reason, I awoke. The sky was clear, air still warm, but the sun was setting, and all I saw out front of me was water, port to starboard, better known as the Pacific Ocean. After the startle, I looked behind me and there about 8-10 miles to the rear was a coast line. I disconnected the TacAir and hand flew the 182 back on a reciprocal course. Looking outside the 182 I figured out where I was and found my way back to the airport where the new owner was waiting and wondering where was his airplane?! The tanks had been full. I would have run out of gas in about two and a half hours if I had slept on. I did not disclose this incident to anyone for years until more electronics started getting into GA cockpits. Be it an iPad, iPhone, advanced automation in the cockpit, whatever, TAA aircraft. If you are not familiar with, or in my case, 60+ years ago, too familiar with. All of it will bite if you don't learn about, understand, become proficient with ,and stay current with it. Juan, I apologize if I carried on too long. However, I thought maybe this confession may help someone not rely upon automation until they fully understand the limitation of its use.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Proof teenagers should not be flying.
@@toddclean547 Age and experience are not necessary related. Plenty of inexperienced old pilots as well and they usually have a much harder time learning new things. Try teaching an old 70yr old 20K hour old pilot a new thing vs teaching a young 1K pilot a new thing. You'll find the young person generally picks it up quickly and retains it, the older pilot may or may not. But a a 70 yr old pilot with 1K most likely will struggle to ever understand it.
That’s my main concern flying westbound with my autopilot activated….falling asleep and waking up too late. 🤪
Trains and some ships have a device that asks to be pushed every few minutes or so and if you don't it sounds a very loud alarm/applies the brakes, you would think there would be something similar in aircraft on autopilots.
At 21:03 Juan says that if Jenny had excessive downward trim AND allowed the airspeed to pick up, “that elevator trim is going to get so heavy . . . .” The implication is that Jenny might not have the strength to counteract that force. With Bonanzas, it’s easy to get fast so very quickly! As my Bonanza instructor would warn me, “Watch your speed-it’s easy to pull the wings off.” I’m terribly afraid that’s exactly what she did.
But she could pull the throttle to idle!!!!!!
@@kraftwurx_Aviationcoulda woulda shoulda.
@@kraftwurx_Aviation Yes, she could pull the throttles back.... but if her mind was so focused on the AP buttons that she fails to turn it off and sort the aircraft out.... and herself. Aviate comes to mind.
@@mofayer That almost the T-shirt of my life; with me it is Coulda, Shoulda, DIDn'A!
Aviate…aviate….aviate….need I say more….perfect day….forget the autopilot….fly the damn airplane….learn the airplane….then the autopilot…
First time viewer, I'm only ever flying with you. Condolences to this family. Terrible turn of events to say the least obviously. That was painful to watch and listen to the lady speak about not being assertive enough with the instructor. This was hard to watch with her father when she did not know what she was doing. That was horrific
Condolences to family and friends. Sad.
Thank you for the analysis.
Happy New Year, anyway.
Long ago as a young CFI, I used to get the "problem" students (the boss' label, not mine) -- other CFIs' students having a hard time accepting that pitch + power = performance. Ones who were staring INSIDE all the time, also. We'd go out and do airwork and return for multiple takeoffs and landings, all with my old giant beach towel covering up the entire panel. They HAD to look outdoors. Within 2-3 approaches, they'd grasp what attitude/power was required to get what they wanted out of the airplane. Their confidence boost, and comfort in the airplane, was also huge.
I look back on that time with the knowledge that there is maybe more Luck in flying than we'd like to admit. I had great instructors and feel I was lucky, lucky, lucky for that! To this day it drives me insane to see pilots with their heads down, pushing buttons, playing music, making videos, swiping their phones and maybe (????), just maybe, forgetting that they're supposedly in change of a hunk of metal going over 150 mph through the air. (Or, even 80 mph... or 300+ mph! It really doesn't matter if one isn't paying attention.)
I feel sorry for the families and friends here. But this never should have happened. May they RIP.
My thghts exactly and takes me back to my ole instructor..."Head up, head outside and learn to scan the panel super fast then outside again".
All that works until your IFR, then it’s fly the panel there are no visual references. This was an issue when I was trying to start an instrument rating, I was always outside and taught to be outside. Trying to get inside and fly the panel by scanning for subtle changes was a challenge. I could pick them out easily by looking outside, on a 6-pack it was a challenge to switch my brain.
Yes, very true. But this airplane went into the ground on a clear VFR day. It's simply tragic that she didn't just fly the airplane. 😢
@@maryl923 YES! A very wise man Mr. Bob Hoover would always say fly the aircraft to the crash! Do not lose control of said aircraft. RIP folks.
Please today think navigating transportation is a secondary task. It's amazing their level of faith in "other things and people" with considering the consequences. I believe human awareness is the central topic to this problem. People choose to check out of life in many contexts and thus aren't aware of their consequences or dangers.
Great analysis, THX. So many people use machines/electronics and do not understand how they work/troubleshooting. I am a GA pilot and Trauma anesthesiologist. My Son also flys for the airlines. When I became board certified by doctors that actually wrote the anesthesia texts, they expected us to know everything including all the machines in the OR. Understanding how things work makes you understand both pros/cons of machines as well as backups. When in doubt turn the autopilot off, then trouble shoot.
Excellent analysis (as always). Thank you!
I think if I ever wanted to become a pilot, I would want to be trained by someone like Juan. His explanations are so clear and in-depth that I get the feeling I could fly an aircraft after watching one of his videos.
Juan is not a pilot. So you're already chose bad.
I think you failed your reading for understanding tasks in school. If you ever attended, that is. @@TOMVUTHEPIMP
What? Are you smoking weed or just a troll?@@TOMVUTHEPIMP
The frustration Juan is exhibiting when watching her attempt to "figure out" her autopilot is palpable. We're right there with you. All that messing around with the buttons and never adjusting the power setting. Ugg. Very sad and senseless demise.
Hey, her rpm was constant. Oh, you mean she should have adjusted the manifold pressure? That would require understanding power and how a constant speed prop works which I'm questioning if she did. Whoever endorsed her logbook for complex aircraft might have some explaining to do.
@@loudidier3891 sounds to me like she shouldn’t be flying without an instructor, the only good news is most of these idiots are NOT taking out innocent people on the ground when they burn in.
@@sethtenrec It would have been cheaper to buy a .38 pistol and play with the buttons.
Juan getting as upset and aggravated as Dan Gryder..well, not quite, but when you see Juan visibly upset, you take note, because it is out of the ordinary, and he has a reason...
That's my takeaway.
You KNOW this woman was in over her head(being nice about it) by his reaction. @@dyer2cycle
Juan, this was painful to watch. Seems she was more into the "social media" aspects of flying than the "stick and rudder" aspects.
Additionaly, 400 hours is a deadly amount of experience. The USAF studies confirmed that. Enough experiance to feel comfortable to push the envelope but, not enough experience to recover from the envelope.
Another well done presentation. Cheers
I haven't verified the statistics however I've heard this point of view concerning 400-hour pilots. My thinking is it's probably due to transition of platform & IFR training.
I find myself in this position as a CFII in the part 61 world. The difference is that I’m always teaching. Clients want instrument instruction, but they want the result without the work. Nothing like my time teaching in a quality 141 where we had rules. The PUI either performed to the lesson's standard or was graded "unsatisfactory." I've been recently given the opportunity to rebuild my school, and we will no longer accept this. If you don’t work and pass, you are graded unsatisfactory and will remain in that lesson until the skills are obtained. Schools must also provide more oversight. For example, CFIs must be checked out in the aircraft and undergo 90-day checks. This reminds me of a CFI I had for my commercial pilot training. She’d sit there reading how to fly the maneuvers while teaching. “How do we fly lazy eights?”
I teach in a BE35. She’s lost, and there is NO WAY I’d sign her off.
Excellent job of dissecting this horrible accident, Juan! My heart bleeds for her and her dad and family for another, so very preventable accident!
I don’t fly but really can see the details you have expressed in this video as very valuable to all those that fly. What a great service you provide. May the young lady and her father RIP. And may her UA-cam videos bring good information to all pilots. Never stop learning.
Sounds like she was in over her head - flying too sophisticated an aircraft without an expert, rated pilot per that aircraft, accompanying her. She concentrates on trying to master a technology component without having sufficient, seasoned expertise at hand to safe-guard/ manage her self-learning efforts. Alas, aviation is just not an arena to go at things in that manner - there is absolutely no forgiveness. Very sad that her legacy will be that of the forensic learning from what resulted in tragedy.
I originally found your channel while looking for Luscombe content, but you have become my primary and preferred source for accident reports and summary. Pilots learn from the mistakes of other. Your channel has very likely prevented fatal accidents. You have made me a better pilot, thank you.
Very thorough & fair explanation of a person in over her head. Given this high performance aircraft, I’m not the least surprised by the events leading up to the crash & conclusion. It’s just a shame on all counts for everyone, family & friends.
Thanks for the explanation. As someone with no flight knowledge, I could still understand how things went wrong.
Great analysis, blunt and fair. I have 30+ years in aviation and feel an overwhelming amount of people are not "professional enough". Whenever someone asks me about learning to fly, I assert "Please get a veteran instructor, not some young guy trying to get his hours up". Also, I blame a lot of the flight schools for this too.
Unfortunately, the "young guy trying to get his hours up" needs to start somewhere. Someone always has to be the first student, and unfortunately if the CFI ends up doing poorly and the student is not astute to pick up on that, the combination can be bad. As regulated as aviation is, I frankly think it's too easy to be a CFI.
As a veteran CFII and new flight school manager, I read these comments and it makes my blood boil. The instructors aren’t going to like it, and I’ll most likely lose 90% of them, but I’m defining SOPs like we had at L3 Harris. Either you follow the SOPs or you’re gone! This is what happens when you leave a young CFI to his / her own devices without management and rules. They start joy riding with paying clients. I just flew with a guy. Not my student. 100 hours and can’t land. Maybe he’s incapable of learning? Maybe a change of CFI would do it? He’s landing with me on lesson 2. We’ll see how long that lasts but his lessons are now properly noted with his failures and his successes.
Possibly this blonde-bimbo's previous instructor was not so interested in teaching her to fly as in getting something else up apart from just his hours. Possibly he was not strict enough with her and there was too much flirtation going on during lessons.
@@PRC533 Agreed, the CFI position should be a professional goal, not a "trying to get hours up" interim career stepping stone.
@@110knotscfii Re-read my original comment; it is harsh, but it also makes my blood boil to see students putting their lives in the hands of mediocre "getting their hours up" instructors. It comes down to the culture of flight schools - many are professionally run with great instructors.
Thank you for this in-depth look at Jenny’s crash. Jenny was a friend of mine and we shared our training experiences together as we were going through instrument at the same time, but in different locations. She and I talked a great deal about her frustrations with her first instrument instructor and I’m glad she decided to fire him. He often commanded the radios, programmed in navigation and approaches, and even made adjustments on her aspen - reaching across her to get to the equipment. At one point he asked her to take some videos down because he was afraid it would make him look bad and negatively impact his move to the airlines. Her second instructor didn’t want her to film her training flights. Her third instrument instructor was a more experienced, older gentleman who was having her do some more fundamental maneuvers to help her get back on track with instrument training.
She hated her autopilot and was getting that changed out with the Garmin suite avionics package: G3X, Garmin 500 autopilot, GTN650. I talked with her about an hour before she and her dad took off … never heard back from her. Found out about the crash morning of 8 Dec.
Wow, thanks for the feedback!
I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend.
He probably did all that(radios, approach loading, PFD adjustment) because she didn't have a clue how to.
So sad. Sorry about your friend :(
@chapdoc Changing out the autopilot would do nothing. She did not have a basic understanding of airmanship and quite simply had no idea what was going on. Just the simple fact that she was commanding the autopilot to climb but didn't understand why the airspeed was bleeding off says volumes. She was way more interested in playing with the gadgets than flying. Some people are not cut out for flying. She was one of them.
She seems to have less curiosity about the Autopilot system on her own plane than I do about stereo equipment I buy at thrift stores.
Oh man…those training and autopilot videos are painful, dude. It’s like watching an overstimulated soccer mom try to negotiate freeway traffic during rush hour…
She was reading fuel consumption as her trim settings in one video
When I learned to fly I had no desire to put my training / flying experience on social media.. On my first flight, my instructor, a very good one, told me that flying is fun and rewarding, but if you do not take it seriously it will kill you in a second. I always took that advice seriously.
Yes, my instructor called a pilot license a possible license to kill if you don't take it seriously.
You can’t go thru life being a pussy. Just sayin’.
This is why CFIs need to be strict. I get wanting to get more people into flying, but some people aren't meant to be pilots and some people need way more training before they are ready. Her CFIs didn't give her an accurate picture of her (lack of) capability and it led directly to her and her father's deaths.
But her YT channel cited her father as her flight instructor.
@@demef758 No it didn't.
That is a lot of assumptions on your part.
There’s a fine line to walk there, but at some point a very direct conversation about her ability to control the airplane needed to be had. Then again, who knows? Maybe some instructors did speak up and she didn’t take it seriously. Either way it’s tragic.
@@Sugah_J agreed. Seems her older instructor did not allow her to film during instruction. As a former 30 year military instructor pilot I could see the distractions of the gopro and a lack of clear roles with her younger instructor. Tragedy is a good term regardless. Not sure what the weather was but taking that AP into IMC conditions with a disconnect and failure to correlate power settings to speed and climb is exactly what the final ADSB track looks like.
Juan, I love your channel. As an ATP of 30 years; I'd say this dynamic of personalities can happen at any level of flying experience outside the discipline of Part 121. Where an arrogant crew member or flight instructor takes charge and pushes their will on the other pilot. I set the tone with my new crew members by stating "it's all just conversation about technique until someone uses the phrase. What is happening makes me uncomfortable"
Then everything stops and we work together to evaluate what is happening.
Keep up the great work and this airplane was most likely seriously mis-trimmed nose down and the auto pilot kicked off or was shut off and she froze and/or wasn't strong enough to pull up. SAD
I think that this idea should passed on to every new pilot and crew who are new to each other: "I set the tone with my new crew members by stating "it's all just conversation about technique until someone uses the phrase. What is happening makes me uncomfortable"
Then everything stops and we work together to evaluate what is happening."
Excellent point that ought to be taken very seriously!
Oh my goodness… I don’t know anything about flying, but how was she authorized to fly solo? She had no clue!
I recommend watching her video titled "Beechcraft First Test Flight: What Could Possibly Go Wrong?? Female pilot Test Flight", which is telling in so many ways. This was from September 2022, and both she and her flight instructor just randomly push buttons on the AP without knowing what they are doing. She ended up landing with no flaps as well, with her instructor also unaware. In another video she complained about a weirdly floating on landing, with her AND her flight instructor unaware of the ground effect. They are making wild guesses about sudden crosswinds and hot rising air... It is bizarre.
It's almost like they answered their own question. What could go wrong? Female pilot.
@@randylahey345 Curb your fucking sexism, really...
@@randylahey345
Cluelessness applies regardless of gender
.... A fact that you ironically seem to be clueless of ;)
This could have happened to a social media male as well. This is not a gender thing. Are all pilots misogynists?
Can’t see any of her flying videos?
Excellent training from Juan Brown...it's sad to see the loss of a perfectly good life. This video leaves a lot of questions for future learning. Thanks Juan!
Thank you for posting. This had to be painful for you, knowing what the outcome was. I can't help thinking that Jenny recording her training and flying with her father caused her to try and blame aircraft components like the autopilot, to avoid looking ignorant or unqualified. Something as basic as holding vs. pressing buttons on the autopilot show her lack of understanding.
When I was a radio control airplane pilot - in some situations - simply reducing throttle can save a plane.
Early on in my training I was taught two important lessons. Rule #1 is control airspeed (ask any student who has flown with me. I tell them you can forget to do almost everything else but always keep control of your airspeed. Almost every fatal accident involves neglecting rule #1 in some way or another. The second lesson was its not what you know but what you do NOT know that will kill you in aviation. Whenever I fly an airplane with an Autopilot I ensure I can find the circuit breaker with my hand without looking.
Prayers for peace to their family.
That second video with her flying with just her father - my jaw dropped when she asked her father to keep an eye on her airspeed for her. If nothing else - almost literally nothing else - that's one thing a pilot should absolutely be keeping a very close watch on themselves.
@@obliviouzI'm not a pilot and even that seemed obviously wrong to me too. Like driving a car and asking someone else to keep an eye on if you are staying in your lane while you fiddle with the radio.
Good advice on the auto pilot circuit breaker
There is a rule #0: You are the PIC, act like it! Dont let the autopilot fly you - you set up the flight in the way you want, manually. THEN you use the autopilot to take you where your mind has been 5 -10 minutes ahead of time - i.e. I'm at 7000ft heading south. Autopilot should take me to this place at this time. THEN once you are satisfied, you plan for what you want to see change - run it mentally first and then allow the autopilot to fly it. What I see in these videos is that she is a passenger to the autopilot. Why?
@@MrXtachx She might have been a passenger to the autopilot, but the big issue was she had absolutely no idea how the autopilot worked. You cannot wing it (sic) learning how the autopilot works on the fly (sic) by randomly pushing buttons. If she hand flew the acft the outcome would likely have been very different - aviate, navigate, communicate.
This was so well explained Juan. Thank you! I'm starting my pilot license journey and I wish I had you as my guide. Simplified a quite tricky situation.
Thank you for an excellent analysis of the most likely cause for the crash. It's sad that such a new pilot with hours of social media video did not recognize her deficiencies and limitations before having a fatal accident.
It's so important to be very familiar with every instrument.
I have 35 yrs of flight experience and I think your analysis is spot on. Easy to be overwhelmed in a new complex aircraft. Luckily when I started aircraft were simple and you had to learn to fly first and then expand your flight experience. I come from a flying family so even as a kid I had role models. She was seriously let down by her instructors. In fact it looks to me like Mr Helpful was trying to flirt with her by making it seem easy so she would be happy. My condolences to her family.
He seemed to have an attitude of not letting her fail. I'm a non-pilot, but I think she would be better served by him letting her mess up a little, then him saying 'My airplane", then getting everything right, then explaining what she did wrong, and how to do it right.
I worry about how much of a disadvantage it can seriously be, to NOT learn first on simple aircraft, where the aviate/navigate/communicate is drilled in deeply, and the aviator can more safely grow, with that expanded experience, and subsequent aircraft.
The world is just so different, it seems a lot of professions are producing what I call “surface” graduates. Aka easily overwhelmed. A hollow base. 🤷🏻♀️
Flirting was the first think I thought of as he leaned over closely. Add in doing the work for her just adds to that impression. He didn't do her any favors, to get the experience needed you have to do the work. There is no way around that.
This is the problem with training and testing on simulators. It is easy to "make" the trainee pass. As well, all scenarios must be programmed into the simulators. The programmers must have godlike powers, which they don't have.
she clearly did,nt know how to control the basics to an acceptable level....SHOCKING 🤦♂️
GUIDENCE FROM HER FAMILY.
Hi Juan, Great video as always. I have a Century 2000 in my V-tail. I DO have the trim switch on the yoke, so I don’t know all the differences between the two set ups (with/without trim switch), but when I use the UP/DN buttons on the autopilot, the trim wheel does move with it. You don’t need much to make the trim wheel move, so if you hold the button in for any length of time, the pitch attitude will exceed the “normal” attitude envelope. Disconnecting the autopilot through either the OFF button on the autopilot unit or the autopilot disconnect button on the yoke, won’t do much since the trim wheel (at best) will stop where it is, either nose up or nose down, leaving you with the yoke pressure/weight. The only way to alleviate the pressure is to spin the trim wheel. The ‘TRIM UP/DN annunciation comes on ONLY while pressing on the buttons and on the video the annunciation comes on with no button selection. That’s why it leads me to believe the buttons are sticky.
I could see the oscillations depicted on the ADS-B map, if she had “sticky” UP/DN buttons on the autopilot.If you reverse the pitch by pressing the opposite (sticky) button, then the oscillations would become larger in amplitude, as the stress level and maybe confusion. Sad all the way around.
Thanks for sharing this bit of info. She very well have induced an UP or DOWN pitch trim with the autopilot and it would not have 'neutraled' itself by turning off the AP. Interesting.
One of my favorite sayings is "you can always tell a 3rd year medical student, but you can't tell them much."
In my home country, 30 years ago when I was learning to fly, private pilots were supposed to fly only visual, navigation with maps and analog flight computers. We focused on flying the plane and that was great!
Same. I started my PPL about the same time ago. We flew the aircraft, that was the number one priority. We were also expected to have a though understanding of how aircraft work, and situational awareness of other aircraft in the sky. No messing about looking at iPads, fiddling with this button in the hope it will fix things for us etc.
She was seriously let down by a system and/or examiners that rated her as competent to fly, sadly giving her the impression she could run before she could walk.
Rest In Peace both of them.
I know this was a difficult video to talk about. However, I feel you are one of a few who really provided a great analysis.
What makes it particularly difficult to talk about?
Indeed, exactly.
@@bricaaron3978 Highlighting pilot error that turned out to be fatal.
This makes me angry but mostly sad. As a CFI/CFII/MEI when I first started out instructing my goal was an airline, but I learned to love instructing. My first students were Chinese and English was a second language for them. I had to learn to be a teacher and I had a CFI instructor/mentor that taught me how to be an effective communicator and teacher. I then went on to teach South Korean students. I loved instructing and it showed as I then became a stage check pilot, checking the progress of other instructor's students (and how well they were being taught). Us instructors held each other accountable and worked with other students to keep standards high. Nobody slipped through the cracks and safety was #1 and always in the forefront. While I don't know all the details I feel her instructor(s) failed her. This was too much airplane for her experience level and her lack of knowledge of the systems on board prove that. When I made it to an airline I flew the DASH-8 and my training captain drilled into my head to always fly the airplane first! I found myself falling behind the airplane on approach as a new FO and I could hear his voice in my head, so I just disconnected the autopilot, got everything stable, and reconnected it. It was a lesson I learned so long ago but still remember today. Good instructors stay with you even when they aren't there.
I think an attitude of making excuses for people has permeated the industry. When I learned, and when I went through flight school later as well, there was a saying 'Slack NOT spoken here'! We were harsh on each other and they were harsh on us. Because you don't get a second chance if you screw the pooch. You're dead. Seen too many hot-doggers killed - some of which took other people with them.
So no one wants to shut down the instructor - who was terrible - because they don't want to 'hurt' him.
Now two people are dead.
Indeed. When I watched her Video which Juan showed here a special point became obvious to me: Watching it as a female it looks to me as if her instructor acted more like a boyfriend who wanted to come close to her than as an instructor who was teaching her how to fly. How should she learn anything when he´s doing everything for her and she therefore gets no feedback what she did wrong and where she failed?
A difficult topic in this context, but it seems obvious to me, too: If I should fit into such a small Cockpit together with a young Male I wouldn´t wear such a cleavage and so short Hot Pants. I´m really no Puritan, at the Beach I´m always topless, too. But in such a situation I would definetely cover more up.
It´s of course a difficult topic as all Female-Male/ Male-Female Relationships are. But this Relationships seems to play an important role here.
To put it the other way around: A competent Instructor shouldn´t focus on her Boobs and Legs but on her Competence and Ability to fly a Plane. This Instructor definetely didn´t.
Yep.
First time watching one of your videos very professional very impressive.
Hate to be grim, but if she was filming herself, we might be able to learn exactly what happened.
True but if that was the case the NTSB/FAA will never let that footage see the light of day. It took a leak from Russia to get the CVR recordings for the Uberlingen collision in 2002, one we all thought would never ever be released, but the US NTSB/FAA, for all its faults, is not Russia.
I have a feeling she was filming. But impacting at that high of a speed I doubt the cameras made it. Maybe the sd cards did.
I'm wondering if carbon monoxide had entered the cockpit and caused them to be groggy and trying to stay awake til it was too much for them, they passed out and the plane nosedived?
Carbon monoxide has caused quite a few crashes from pilots and passengers passing out and the plane acts crazy til it crashes. 🤔
@@glenturney4750 Judging by her obvious lack of skill, that is highly doubtful.
@@glenturney4750 If she didn't understand how the autopilot worked 4 weeks ago, she probably didn't understand on the accident flight. No impairment needed, just confusion and inexperience. (And what's with the instructor not telling her to add power? Is that a teaching style, or did the instructor also not understand the AP? I'm sure his interview will be in the eventual NTSB docket.)
One point that is confusing to me is if she didn't trust her AP and was heading to have it replaced why was she using it in her final flight?
I'm not a pilot and certainly not familiar with autopilots, but I am familiar with electronics, and a "momentary switch" explicitly is one that you (potentially) press and hold. A momentary switch is one that only switches when you hold it down. For example, a button on a typical TV remote control is a momentary switch. It's in its normal state until you press it, and it's in its activated state as long as you hold it down. It's up to the system it's sending that signal to to determine if the continual signal performs a continual action or not. For example, if you press a volume button, it's probably going to raise or lower the volume until you let go (or it hits a limit), but if you press a number button, it's probably only going to produce a single digit no matter how long you hold it down, despite that signal being continuously sent. This is as opposed to a latching switch, like a household light switch, where once you flip the switch, the light is going to be on until you actively activate the switch again. Or a retractable pen: press the button once, you can write; press it again and you can't.
Ultimately, a momentary switch is one that has a "normal" state and is only in its "activated" when it's being held. It does not indicate that it can only be held for a moment.
If this autopilot meant for you to touch the button only for a moment, I'd argue that the description in the manual is misleading. But maybe "momentary switch" has a different meaning within the context of flight jargon
Fascinating, those "momentary switches" I find to be impertinent🤣. I like to order my Canon printer and Hotpoint washing machine to turn on as soon as I give the order. But after pressing the button they just hang about like lazy employees on a cigarette break. "Yo wanna do what boss?". So annoying, effectively you have to repeat the order several times and wait until the eventual clicking and whirring confirm that your order is being processed. I just want a simple on/off switch, and immediate compliance, not a too-clever and cheeky one that answers back
I’ve been doing instrument training this last summer. I had to constantly tell my FI to let me run and set the radios. I told him I understood it was difficult to watch somebody stumble a little and figure things out but sometimes that’s what is needed to learn. We had a good relationship and had more than a few laughs when I screwed up, but I do feel more confident.
Hopefully your instructor also kept the phone off/put away. I hate seeing phones in the cockpit when people are training. That has lead to a serious downfall in learning/training. Glad you and your instr. have a good relationship and your confidence levels are up. Good luck on the rest fo your training & be safe!
@@appleiiee You are paying the instructor to instruct and teach you, not play on their phone. Like... audacity of some people.
Really? Your CFI dont let you set the radios?
Appreciate your content, Juan. I started watching for the Oroville coverage and stuck around for the excellent aviation analysis. Always thorough, honest, and professional. 👍
she was too busy taking selfies and worried about being some nobody on youTube instead of flying the plane.
Very well said. See my earlier comment. I have nothing but contempt for flying pilots on UA-cam and I sincerely hope that the FAA or congress does something about it.
A momentary switch doesn't mean you just hold it for a moment. A momentary switch is only connecting the circuit or passing the "on" state as long as you are holding it. Like a drill. As soon as you let go of the switch it turns off. Or a brake light switch. Let off the brakes and the lights turn off. So IDK if that means the buttons on the autopilot don't work the way you think or if you misidentified the type of switch. The other two are toggles (it can be a button or a lever like a light switch continually passing the on state until it is turned off) or a trigger (that becomes inert after pressing it until the mechanism resets, it can't pass a state).
Hi Juan Dave Australia this is one of the best investigator videos I have ever seen. Thank you so much. We are very fortunate of your background and you being a current pilot in these videos. As an ex instructor here in Australia i have seen situations like this before it’s tragic 2 beautiful people gone tragic
I was waiting on this analysis, having watched a couple of others. Juan, you never fail to provide in-depth, common-sensical information. Thank you.
The 800lb elephant in the room no one wants to talk about- she did not seem to have the ability to be a pilot regardless of instruction or time in the seat. Being a quarterback is a high mental skill, high pressure, real-time data analyzing job and there's a reason why not everyone can do it. Flying an aircraft is NOT driving a car, and most people can't even drive well. This was tragic in the most ironic sense
USMC aviation I level. You analyzes is excellent.
Keep up the good work yt channel left good info
Your explanation is excellent.
Thank you Juan for going over this accident. I watched all of her videos and feel the same way as you. It's so very sad and it pisses me off CFI's let her get this far behind and down this road. She seemed so very nice. RIP Jenny