THIS Engine Flaw KILLS Airlines!
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- Опубліковано 1 січ 2025
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WHAT's Going on with Pratt & Whitney!? Some airlines are having problems with HUGE numbers of grounded jets. Is there something fundamentally wrong with their turbo engines?
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
SOURCES
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• Boeing 777 Engine Blas...
• Boeing says all 777s w...
• The Pratt & Whitney GT...
• Our new A321neo
• Will Boeing's furlough...
• Why Boeing factory wor...
• A350 XWB first flight ...
• Airbus A320neo First F...
• Team Agile | Airport O...
• Trump issues emergency...
• Boeing completes first...
• Building Boeing’s Next...
• LEAP-1B First Engine T...
• LEAP-1A First Engine T...
• Boeing completes first...
• The incredible story b...
• The V2500 Engine Progr...
• LEAP Engine: The Power...
• PurePower PW1100G-JM E...
• Pratt & Whitney's Gear...
• Pratt & Whitney GTF Fe...
• How Jet Engines Work
• How does a jet engine ...
• See inside the GE9X, G...
• How does a CFM56-7B wo...
• GE's Big Bet on Goliat...
• GE Aviation On Wing Su...
• How turbofan jet engin...
• 30 years of the V2500
• PW-Allison 578-DX Propfan
• Geared Turbofan™ Engin...
• P&W Geared Turbofan En...
• Boeing 737-100 - "Roll...
• Hapag-Lloyd Boeing 727...
• Douglas DC-9 Prototype...
• After a 36-year journe...
• Finnair Sud Aviation S...
• A320 Celebrating 30 ye...
• McDonnell Douglas MD-9...
• The V2500 Engine Progr...
• 1982 American Airlines...
• PurePower PW1000G Engi...
• Air France : Behind th...
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What happened to the 737 in South Korea?
@@GhostSniper67 Considering the accident only happened last Sunday, it's still under investigation. We won't know for sure until they release the accident report to the public.
sorry, sir. but that 'background melody' is super-distracting. Love to just hear your clear voice; no augmentation necessary! (not a complaint; just a suggestion)
10 years vegan. I don’t hurt others, ✅♥️💪😬/😎👍. Poor little animals. They want to live too. That’s why I’m vegan. I don’t hurt others. Imagine it was your dog🐶. Imagine it was your parrot 😍🤗🦜🤥. I’m not a hypocrite,✅😎. Buddhist monks most of them are vegan. Adventist vegans, in California, longest living people on earth. PIaque forms eating animals. Herbivores/Plant-based/vegans don’t have pIaque. Choose kindness. Herbivores✅♥️💪😬 🦍🦧🐵🐒👩🏽❤️💋👨🏼 UA-cam delicious vegan food.
@@VeganV5912 If God didn't want us to eat parrots he wouldn't have made them out of food
So P&W did the exact opposite thing as Boeing: not sit on their laurels, but develop a brand new product with cutting edge tech, and then take responsibility for its shortcomings. Though the final results may have similarities, I'd still much rather be an employee at P&W.
That is a great point.
Or a customer
Dependable Engines. PW also has the coolest logo.
@@PeterLindstrom-x4w but the role they played in the 2021-2022 777 grounding is comparable to how Boeing does things.
Investing in the future. What a concept.
I wasn't into aviation... until I somehow ran across the Mentour channels. Now I'm practically mainlining it! 😮
Same here, friend mentioned me these recent crashes and I started geeking out about boing and MCAS
I think most people like to learn and Petter is an excellent teacher.
I will never be piloting a plane, yet it's Petter to blame that I've become kinda interested in aviation. I think I've watched all his videos because he's an absolutely amazing explainer, making it so utterly interesting to listen to him.
It's a very sexist name for a channel.
I think he gets into the technical details enough to rope in the science/engineering audiences like myself. It's a great niche!
I know this is strange request, but could you go into some detail about the annoying slow process of starting these geared engines. Something about letting the shaft come up to temp if memory serves me correctly. Cheers, Peter (retired 767 driver)
ur the first and ig will be the only person i hear from, who, call themself an airplane "driver" haha
@@threeuniquefingers I heard "aircraft driver" many years ago. But I am a bit old so... But pilots who have flown for a long time, have assimilated flying with driving I guess.
I'd assume it's a lubrication and bearing issue. The sleeve type bearings need a minimum operating temperature to work properly, plus there is thermal shrink and expansion of components and shafts as they cool down and warm up and that changes tolerances and clearances.
Largely correct. The term they use is “rotor bow”. Essentially, the engine needs to let N2 spool at about 20% for “some duration of time”. The actual time is a bit of a mystery. But when FADEC feels that everything is ready it then dramatically increases the PSI into the starter and opens the fuel valve. The engine will achieve full speed and starter disengagement within seconds of fuel introduction.
All of this Monkey Motion has been created to allow temperature equalization between the N1 and N2 shafts which can cool at wildly differing rates while the airplane sets at the gate. Even after both engine starts are complete, depending upon how long the airplane was parked, we may be required to wait a full five minutes of idle operation before departure. Or, conversely, if the airplane was parked for a short duration, less than two hours, no wait time is required before departure.
So the short answer is that these geared engines are very sensitive to temperature variations within the core and require careful monitoring during the start.
Interesting side note. The geared engines require vast sums of oil compared to our old CFM designs. 20qts/litrs when parked vs only 10qts during the takeoff roll shows that there’s a huge quantity of oil up in the engine while it’s running at full power.
For context, Frontier Airlines guy here, operating the geared NEO on our A321 fleet.
@@Everettjohn Thank you - your entire comment was pertinent and interesting.
A220 driver here with the PW1524G engines. I can confirm that they take FOREVER to start, and my company does not allow for single engine operations due to the risk of compressor stalls resulting in damage caused by bleed air extraction issues, both at idle and off idle, with these engines. But hey, it’s a super easy 5 minutes of pay I get every leg, so there’s that! 😂
I fly a 220 as well and it actually doesn't take that long to start. I've timed it multiple times and it's about a minute or so.
Yes sure you're an A220 "driver"
Back when it was still the C-series (I worked in experimental flight test and for the majority of the C-series program) we had a significant compressor stall on one of the flight test birds. The test crew elected to perform crosswind high power runs at a higher crosswind value than Pratt recommended. It stalled at takeoff power and only recovered to about 70% N2. It used up something like 150% of the compressors life cycle, everything was bent out of profile. The stall was so violent that our staff in the building nearby thought a bomb had gone off! We had a good number of problems with the 1524G. Fan blade coating failures, LPT blade failure, oil control issues and a catastrophic uncontained HPT failure due to an internal engine oil fire. To name a few. It was a running joke amongst us A&P's that they should have put GE's on it. Its a good ship though. For all the teething problems we had it was incredible that it had the same fuel burn at cruise as a Challenger 300.
@ I absolutely love it, quirks and all.
I don't drive a 220 but can confirm my Briggs and Stratton takes for ever to get started I don't know about compressor stalls but it does not like encountering rope the dog left on the lawn. I don't get 5 minutes pay will take any excuse for a beer.
I just had to, thank Mentour......now!
Thank you, Petter and team. You guys are my aviation liaisons and I wouldn't have it any other way. A friendly hello, and a big thank you from Eureka, California.❤🛫🛩🛬
If you are old enough, you might remember the first of the debacles over big turbofan failures. This is of course the RB211 which sent Rolls Royce into receivership. That story and also how they solved the problem and came back from the dead would be a good contrast to what is happening now at P&W
The story of the RB.211-22B was a very unfortunate one because just when development was starting, Rolls-Royce lost one of its most-respected engine designers in 1966. R-R had to get a number of engineers out of retirement to finally get the RB.211-22B certified over a year past the original certification date.
There were also a lot of problems with the early Pratt & Whitney JT9D engines, too. It wasn't until 1972 that P&W finally got the front fan to work properly, but by then both GE and Rolls-Royce had begun certification work on the CF6-50 and RB.211-524 engines the 747-200, both of which became available for 1976.
@@Sacto1654 Indeed, exactly. And it was especially Lockheed with its 1011-program who suffered mostly from this trouble at that time. Later the RB211 became a very reliable engine, still in use until today.
@@NicolaW72 Once they got the RB.211-22B working properly, they immediately started work on the more powerful RB.211-524, an engine rated at around 50,000 lb. thrust, for the 747-200 program. Once available in 1976, the RB.211-524 became a popular engine choice for the 747-200B and was used on later production versions of the L-1011.
@@Sacto1654 Indeed, exactly. And also at the 757, so much as I know.
Back in 2021-2022 I received a scholarship to attend a P&W line and base maintenance course for one of their engines. I decided on the 1500G although my airline is not currently running them. I wanted to get insight on the new technology of the geared turbofan because I thought it was interesting. Talking to field reps from airlines who actually fly these engines, they claimed they were not very reliable. At the time, none of them reported any catastrophic happenings, but claimed they were maintenance queens. I was the only A&P mechanic (and woman!) out of this group, so none of them had specifics sadly. Most of them just field reps or reliability pencil pushers.
On the plus side, job security. I wish you well in your career.
I sense some 'can do' mentality here...
@@frankderks1150 Can you further explicate what you mean by ‘can do mentality’?
@@ModernVintage31 It's one of the human factors that can lead to bad maintenance practisis. The disrespect shining through for "reliability pencil pushers" is a telling sign.
"Manufactured just right" for the high pressure turbine is a bit of an understatement.
E2 pilot here and I appreciate this video. Our engines do take a long time to start and require a lot of TLC.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
Peeter, I have had the privilege to do work for P&W and tour their facility in Maine, USA while I was there working. Their FOD control and safety measures throughout their plant is top notch. I have also done work at Wyman & Gordon and have seen and touched that monster press they have that has forged so many aircraft parts for many years. Love all your content. Can’t wait to see what you get together on that new crash that happened over the weekend. Lots of things don’t make sense with that one
indeed I'm tuning in too to find out what happened
Who is Peeter?
North Berwick - if you touch any part part, you must be wearing Gloves. Great facility, excellent organization!
PERHAPS BUT 6 YEARS BEFORE DETECTING a defaut in process??? seems long
His name is Petter, FGS!
If you're looking for video ideas, I would love to hear about the specific challenges of Hawaiian airlines. Their planes put on a huge number of very short cycles. From what I've experienced, they can have as many as one flight per hour on the same plane. When I flew from Kona to Maui, the wheels were off the ground for a grand total of 18 minutes. High humidity, ocean spray, and massive numbers of engine cycles, seems to me it would be an interesting case study.
Salt in the air & pollutants in smoggy areas plus sulfur in the fuel react in the combustion chamber which causes corrosion issues. his would be even more of an issue in a low and frequent flight cycles to me since it spends more time in those layers of air. Look up 'sulfidation'.
@wiredforstereo Look up Aloha Airlines Flight 243. After 89,680 flight cycles, (more than twice the number it was designed for) 18 feet of the cabin roof over the first class seats detached and flew away. Amazingly, they landed. Without one of the stewardesses.
@@grahammonk8013 Exactly, I remember Peter talking about this exact thing when he covered that flight. Amazing that that didn't end worse than it did, except for the poor flight attendant who perished.
He did talk about that in one vid IIRC. Aloha Airlines flight 243 was a case of the extra wear from those repeated short flight damaging the plane and causing a partial breakup in-flight.
When I worked at Cessna in about 1984 or 85 we were given the option to buy back a model 402 that had many cycles island hopping in Hawaii. In the experimental department we thoroughly documented and disassembled it for comparison to our static test articles and to see what flaws including corrosion were present.
Main lessons were that electrical grounding studs were often assembled from mixtures of metals that deviated from specifications and caused dissimilar metal corrosion and that underfloor drains got gummed up resulting in moisture build up that corroded structural elements in unexpected ways. Also, x-ray images showed accumulated tools and small parts many of which were likely from the factory.
Is it just me or do engine episodes feel so rewarding to watch ?
It's a gender thing, men hunger after understanding mechanical things like it's an essential nutrient.
Maybe cuz as a kid, you built Tinker Toy turbines driven by house fans, like I did? Building a scatter shield enclosure made of TT's in case a blade detached causing the rest of engine to disassemble was pretty hard to do. I never advanced beyond the supplied plain bearing type of wood on wood and the purely press fit (interference fit) construction. Would of loved to experiment with the TT compatible (ID & OD) low profile ball bearings that can be found easily now and maybe a bit of glue for joint strength
It's just you.
No, they are quite boring ...
Thank you for always being so technical yet simple... one of the affected airlines were Iraqi Airways (my home country's flag carrier), they bought 5 new Airbus A220 models between 2023 & 2024, took delivery of them, & now they are grounded due to the P&W engine problems... to add insult to injury, the 1st delivered plane just started it's engine inspection recently, while 4 spanking brand new A220s sit in hangers costing my government millions of dollars in total for being no-flight!
Have you tried WD40 to start the engine 🤔 it work on my engine😊
@@PlanXV Also, duct tape around emergency exit seals to stop that annoying pressure leak hiss.
When do we hit a point where the complexity of innovation just simply isn't worth the increase in cost and risk? I see the same thing in automobiles as well. They keep getting more complex, which means they are more difficult and more expensive to service.
@ Sinocte , very few problems occured with powerplants of various types in the past... Back in the 60's -80's.... Some developed problems, But NOT as often as they do now... Today is : 01/02/25
The irony of this is that the issue isn't with the innovative geared part. It's the rest of the engine that has issues, which is basically the same designs (tweaked, enhanced, but basically the same) we've been making for decades
As a retired pilot I have been following your post for some time. Great overview of the geared turbojet engines and their problems. How about the RR Trent series engines as they also are having major issues
Speaking of the Devil, a Swiss cabin crew member just died after inhaling smoke from a P&W failure in an A220 flight from Bucharest, diverted to Graz on Dec 23rd
Educating and entertaining; this is how Petter rolls.🙂
The powdered metal issue doesn’t just affect the GTF, it’s impacted most P&W engines. The GTF are affected more due to the design tolerances is the problem
Powdered metal is also affecting LEAPs, but strangely they have less affected engines…don’t forget that the casting machinery are exactly the same across all manufacturers. Think that P&W took a safe decision to pull out the majority of LLP components also if they were not sure they were affected.
@ it disproportionately affected the GTF as the contaminated powdered metal issue happened to coincide with the the initial GTF production ramp up. That means almost all of those engines were produced with parts having suspect parts. Other legacy lines have a large pool of engines and parts that were previously produced so pulling them out of service for inspection isn’t nearly as disruptive. One thing to note is that just because a part was produced with the suspect powdered metal doesn’t condemn the parts. It only means they must be subjected to more intense inspection. For some complex parts PW quality haven’t approved inspection methods as yet. They are working hard to validate the inspections. Once they are confident those inspections will find all potential defects many parts that were pulled out of an abundance of caution will be returned to service, possibly with new inspection intervals
God fortsättning Petter!
It would be nice to get some more technical contect about these engines and aircraft.
Have a fantastic new year and end of this!
Mats
Again and again Petter is giving us an amazingly detailed video yet perfectly understandable for everyone in or out of the aviation industry!
In the days of Jurassic 737s, Air New Zealand and P & W jointly set up a repair depot in NZ. This eventually went moribund, but has recently been resurrected for the GTFs, especially as Air NZ is heavily affected with several new A320 and 321s grounded.
New Zealand has been overhauling engines steadily with a dip during COVID like all shops
Is the Swiss A220 smoke in cabin incident last week possibly linked to this? Swiss just announced that the sick member of cabin crew has sadly died.
its linked to the engines (PW GTF) yes, and their shit QC - and one person is dead and dozens more likely permanently injured , some not manifesting symptoms for months/years .
Aerotoxicity is NOT taken seriously by the industry - how sad.
Nothing to do with the powdered metal issue
@ has nothing to do with PW quality control. Stupid comment
The complexity is amazing, but still room for improvement... Thank you Mentour
Until a few months ago I was the Director of the CAA of a developing country. Therefore, I had control over a few NEOs and over no MAX at all. Your video has been very enlightening. Thanks, a lot.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
The ALF502 on the BAE146/Avro RJ had a geared fan. I’m sure the maintenance costs associated with a 4 engine airplane were significant, but it was an innovative airplane (carbon brakes, geared fan, no thrust reversers)
Reportedly, there were also reliability issues with the engines. There was a joke going round about the aircraft.
Q: Why does a small airliner like the BAE146 have four engines?
A: Because there isn't enough room under the wings for six.
i just realized that the T-shirt's pfd data suggests that the plane's flyin out of procedure lol
259 knots below 10,000 ft haha
I am not a pilot but I believe ATC routinely give jets clearance to exceed 250 when they're on IFR.
@@PsRohrbaugh this only happens for very heavy jets on take off when the speed necessary to fully retract flaps and slats is greater than 250 knots, it’s not a matter of being on an IFR flight plan
@@As_A________Commenter OK, that may be the root cause, but I was under the impression that even then you'd only get clearance to exceed 250 if you were in controlled airspace being controlled by ATC - IE not having to rely on visual separation or worry about VFR traffic.
I just read that the flight attendant of the Swiss A220 flight that landed in Graz has died. It happened on flight LX1885 from Bucharest to Zurich on December 23, which had to perform an emergency landing in Graz due to smoke in the cabin. The case is under investigation by the aviation authorities and the attorney of state.
Did it use these engines? Were they the cause?
@@gottfriedheumesser1994 smoke in cabin events have been an issue as long as aircraft have used high pressure bleed air to pressurize the cabin. Only the 787 is currently immune from the probability.
@@Gdub33 The smoke came from a defective engine, and the pilots made an emergency descent as they were close to Graz airport. As the A220 is not a sailplane they made a single-engine emergency landing and evacuated the plane on the runway. One member of the cabin crew had to be reanimated and died yesterday, and another one had to be treated at Graz University Hospital. Some passengers were also checked at the hospital but immediately released.
@@chrissmith7669 I know, it is common among aviators and technicians, so I didn't mention this cause.
@gottfriedheumesser1994 oh jeeze. Thanks for the info!
Back in 2022 I was on a A320 NEO with the P&W 1000G and the #2 engine did an auto shutdown on taxi out. These shutdowns are much more common that what is being reported. On the other hand, these advanced materials used in modern engines are necessary to get emmision and fuel consumption performance that all airlines demand.
ONE shutdown reported by an internet commenter does NOT mean these shutdowns are much more common than reported.
Stop spewing nonsense. The earth isn't flat and Trump isn't a truth teller, just because people on the internet claim those things are so either.
The problem is bad enough without spewing total nonsense about it.
One would think you should always check for impurities when making such critical parts and analyse the whole production pipeline for any missing or worn down elements. It's astonishing that such big companies skip basic quality assurance checks. Look at Boeing and their skipping of the redundancy principle in MCAS. There should more oversight introduced to double check if these companies follow common decades old procedures.
In a world where huge amounts of money end up in the hands of a criminal elite including the governments and the military industrial complex, there is little left ...for the world to live on.
Fuel is extremely expensive, emission limit as CO2 is a hoax, passenger checks ridiculous as the elite is the biggest terrorist of all, the list with requirements is endless ..... Half of the world is living under stress while the air is being sprayed with chemtrails. Welcome to planet Earth !!!!
Ditto.
I was on the CSeries/A220 flight testing as an A&P until the end of 2023. Great aircraft overall and as a new one, I really learned a lot. Interesting to hear what you had to say about the GTF from what I witnessed in testing.
Aircraft engines are getting more and more highly stressed due to increasing demand for lower fuel burn and more power.... All engine makers are having problems as they approach the limit of the technology.
13:48 "... and it turned out that the gear boxes had their own teething issues too."
Perhaps an unintentional joke, but a welcome one.
I was the head of technical of one of the first Lessors to take GTF engined aircraft into the fleet in 2016 and the headaches it caused our Lessees right from the start were intense, beginning with the bowed rotors that led to the very slow start times we still have. Having come through the failing bearings and seals, the delaminating fan blades and at least 4 iterations of combustors, all of which led to very few of our engines making 2,000 cycles between shop visits (compared to 10,000 for the V 2500 and 17-18,000 for the CFM56) I retired a few years ago. Pratts were always good to work with through all this, they were open and honest, which you can’t always say about other manufacturers , but they just can’t “catch a break”. About the only thing that never caused a lost nights sleep was the big fan gearbox we all worried about during the design phase! That worked perfectly and never failed, but even then Pratt made a rod for their own back. They term the accessory gear box, driving oil pumps and IDGs etc, as the Main Gear Box so every time something goes wrong with it ( as it does frequently on all engine types) folks that don’t understand think its a problem with the Fan gear! Ah well!
Hearing the details of such things makes it amazing to me that air accidents are as infrequent as they are. I suppose as long as they can make the odds of a single engine failure causing a catastrophe for the plane TINY, that does the trick.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
The Rolls-Royce RB211 and Trent families of engines don’t have gear boxes driving the fan … however … one could argue that the unique three shaft architecture of these engines is the next best thing! Having the LP fan spool be independent of the core IP and HP rotors allows for a simpler, shorter and over the long term, more efficient design. Short engine rotors meant that tip clearances could be maintained at optimum values over time. This was proven in service when SFC deterioration over time on the RB211 was demonstrated to be half that of its JT9 and CF6 rivals. Another added bonus to a shorter engine is that the airflow control system required for the core compressors is simplified … fewer handling bleed valves and stages of variable guide vanes. For example … the RB211-353C, launch engine on the B757, had no variable geometry vanes in the compressors! I’m looking forward to geared UltaFan developments but it’s also nice to reflect on the ongoing legacy of the original 1970’s vintage three shaft RB211. Fun fact: Rolls-Royce designed a small three shaft bypass turbofan prior to the advent of the RB211 and named it Trent! This in turn was the second “Trent” gas turbine with the original being their first turboprop!
@@GrenvilleMelonseedSkiff496 the big plus for the geared fan is allowing the fan/LPC and LPT to spin at the most optimal speed. That’s allowing the GTF to be more efficient. It’s important on a lane like the midsize A320 but will be critical on future large fan diameter engines where the optimum speed of turbine and compressor will be even more pronounced.
@@chrissmith7669I'm not a turbine engineer but I presume this problem increases with bypass ratio... Which is the ultimate driver of efficiency...
Good on P&W for pushing the tech though
@ it’s not the pressure ratio but the relentless pursuit of efficiency. Engines are highly optimized today
Actually, relatively small Soviet/Ukrainian engine D-36/D436 has also three shafts back in 70th. It powers An-72/74, Yak-42, and some exotic like An-148 family, Be-200, Tu-334.
@ Very interesting … thanks for the info! I wonder if they were inspired to adopt a three shaft architecture by the RB211? Apparently the Motor-Sich plant in Zaporozhie was destroyed by Russian forces during their invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
14:30 Wow, I live there! Lake Luzerne. And Pilatus Aircraft Headquarter on top of the left Wingtip ❤
Being honest and conservative about the issue should help P&W in the long run. Hopefully they will find a way to share their customers pain. It’s a lot better than to stonewall and point fingers elsewhere.
Man… Aviation is hard! Even the old experienced and rich players facing existential issues.
That's been a saving grace in this whole situation. Obviously it sucks, but at least we're doing the right thing and being transparent about it. Supposedly the customers still generally have good relations with P&W and appreciate how we're handling it.
@@natebot321experience tells me big coporate customers are more tolerant of things failing than consumers. When I started working in the telecoms industry we where told early on that the customers will tolerate failure so long as its dealt with in line with the SLA and contractual failure rate. Its not the failures that bother them the most but how the issue is dealt with thats the main thing.
@@zeberto1986 True that! Especially when the customer is being compensated for the situation.
If they REALLY wanted to help current customers, they would provide loaner engines to GREATLY shorten the down time for the affected airplanes.
Instead, they apparently are choosing to sell new engines as fast as possible to maximize profits. Even before we know if all the related problems are found, much less solved.
Just on the day before Christmas an accident with a P&W-powered A 220-300 of Swiss happened (it was actually one of the few Bombardier CS300, because the aircraft was delivered to Swiss before Airbus akquired the program), where one Flight Attendant sadly died. According what the Airline stated since there was a new problem discovered at this occasion with this type of engines. So it is unfortunately a ungoing story.
Thank you very much for picking this story up!👍
As a mechanic who deals with the p&w I can say there are multiple issues that are grounding our planes. Combustion chamber falling apart, oil leaking internally, toxic fumes after engine shot down. P&W production is also too slow so when we need to change an engine they don't have any so we have to ground planes without engines.
@@firewhisperer the supply chain can’t keep up with post COVID demand. Pratt is working hard to get suppliers ramped up and to get second sources.
@@chrissmith7669and people wonder why there's inflation 🙄😒
This problem isn't unique to engines - every industry I've touched has supply chain constraint post COVID. It's like shutting the world down for a year, then restarting it causes YEARS of issues that take time to work out...
So P & W still have cans unzipping. My family loss with the British Airtours at Manchester airport back in 1985. Engine failed on takeoff.
That's very interesting and toxic fumes would be an explanation for the Swiss accident. Otherwise I read that modern planes suck the air far away from the engines and smoke doesnt get into the cabin. Could you explain?
@ most aircraft use bleed air from the high pressure compressor to supply the cabin pressurization system. Upstream of the Bleed ports/valves are at least 2 bearings that support the front of the high & low pressure spools. Smoke in the cabin is usually caused by either a leak or failure of an oil seal. In the fwd bearing compartment. It can also be caused by other failures that cause the fwd brg compartment to over pressurize and as a result blow oil past the seals.
This one had me glued to the screen - i even rewound the tape a few times to listen again. And with my fragmented attention span - THAT SAY LOT !
I fly a321 NEO, our company has had no issues, our customers and pilots love the jet.
Wait until your first “dirty sock smell write up.”
Just because they all aren't showing problems does NOT mean this isn't a HUGE problem overall with the outage times to fix, which are just OUTRAGEOUS to me re Pratt and Whitney not having loaner engines or something to greatly alleviate that.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
Give it time
i think Indian airlines "Go AIR", Had issues with Prat and Witney for long eventually shutting the airline as a single biggest reason.
Just one factor in their demise so I've heard
@@natebot321one of the biggest factors among others
@@natebot321They also are forced to compensate heavily to indigo airlines for same reasons.
@@Ksgggg Yes, same for all the airlines. I forget the exact number but P&W has to pay a LOT of money every day each customer doesn't have an engine.
It was mentioned in the video
Very interesting video. As a non techy passenger I am concerned by recent incidents of 2 crashes and 2 near misses, all within a week. However I have avoided the channels that claim to know what went wrong. I can depend on Mentour to wait until the final report has been released before making a video. So I will patiently wait until then.
Very good point. Lots of speculation and guessing on other UA-cam channels.
Is there already an episode about engine start up? If not, I'd love the Mentor explanation of why it takes so long for the non-pilots amongst us!
5:50 The cancellation of the IAE Super Fan was the reason for the A340 ended up with 4 "hair dryers". 😏
5:24 I don't want to be that guy, but it did make me chuckle when you were talking about the V2500 and then put a picture up of an A320 with CFM engines 🤣🤣
As a RnD guy I must appreciate this approach of P&W. Nowadays there aren't so many companies that would go volutary down such deep financial rabbit hole.
Is there any statistic how much % of defective parts were discovered during checks so far?
Have you heard about the guys who decoupled the turbine from the impeller?
The impeller runs off an electric motor.
All the stuff running down the middle of the jet. You can pull that all out. It's not needed anymore. Most of the at bits on the outside could be removed too. You don't need tricks to keep it running. Also instantaneous throttle response.
If you can get up to super Sonic you don't need the turbine either. You use a ramjet cycle, then you can recharge your batteries with the impeller.
Lighter cheaper faster.
I'm not quite sure if detonation engines are ever going to be popular, mostly because I'm not sure if you can get their sound down low enough to not make people deaf.
@pavelm8736 all the engine manufacturers have a huge warranty bill ..
@@jtjames79 And bleeds fuel like crazy doing entire takeoff/landing cycle, needs more time to prepare for landing, bigger hold patterns and supersonic flight being inefficient to begin with.
It's not voluntary, it's driven by industry standards for safety analyses, risk and corrective action to maintain safety of flight. The aviation authorities are deeply involved in the process alongside the OEM's
Thank you for the incredibly informative video explaining the P&W engine issues. I'd naively assumed the issues were gearbox issues.
Small correction to the narrative. The issue wasn’t first identified on the GTF. It was identified on a legacy PW engine that failed. PW uses powered metal throughout their engine lines. It was just the tighter tolerances that caused GTF‘s to be taken off wing sooner to prevent another failure
That was mentioned in the video. 17:03
Sadly, the PW 1500 made headlines again. December the 23rd a Swiss Airlines Bombardier C Series had to emergency land in Austria due to Smoke in Cabin. According to AV Herald the engine suffered heavy oil loss (insider info indicate a ruptured oil tube) causing the engine to seize. Rumors are, the fan shaft broke due to the Seizure, making the failure uncontained.
Multiple passengers and crew suffered smoke poisoning. One flight attended died later in the hospital.
Rest in peace. What a tragedy.
Most jets today use engine bleed air to feed the cabin. It isn't just a Pratt problem to get oil contamination in the cabin air. It is thankfully fairly rare. Just a positive note for Boeing, the 787 does not use bleed air and is immune to this kind of problem. It has electric motor-powered compressors to feed cabin air. I hope all future designs use this.
If it’s not Boing I’m not going!
So sorry P&W’s GTF has had trouble. I love that development. 30,000 horsepower is transferred through that gearbox. I sure hope they get on top of the high pressure turbine blade problem without it sinking them.
Thank for the video!
Crazy thing is...RR have taken a gearbox to 85,000 hp
Great video, as always.
I really appreciate your insights about the economics of the airlines and constructors.
The "V" in the IAE V2500 model actually refers to the5 companies involved in the creation of IAE.
Happy New Year Petter. May you and your family have a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2025. This was one of your most informative, and intensely interesting, videos.
Contamination of the powdered metal? I'm surprised the powder isn't tested for purity after every production stage.
They even do this with food manufacturing.
Good idea, swiss cheese for swiss cheese. And hopefully for metallurgy now. 😊
The powder is used to grow single christal, directional high temperature turbine blades, spectrographic analysis should identify deviations of the chrystaline structure .
@@Arturo4586: If you know about this, why can't you spell crystal even close to correctly?
@@rogergeyer9851Because one can know physics and metallurgy without knowing perfect English? Jeez.
excellent video, thanks for the information, very informative
DG
The Swiss Airline told the Engine Failure from Emergency Landing in Graz is a new and unknown Failure with this Engine! If the flew over sea that could be a catastrophic event!
Really appreciate your in depth commentary on stories like this.
To cut through the complex tech talk and complexity.
Engine manufacturers are forced to favour efficiency and complexity over reliability and safety.
Ultimately they are burning leaner, at the cost of simple robust and reliable design, that in the past, has stood the best test, Time.
If we all thought like that, we would still drive steam cars.
Efficiency is perhaps the main driver of all progress.
Thanks Petter for another great video... It would be really nice if you could provide some statistics of engines that are grounded vs what have been replaced and a time line for these engines to be back in service...?
"If you can make a video on the accident that happened in India, 'Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision on November 12, 1996,' I believe it's the only crash in the aviation industry where two aircraft collided head-on."
Rolls Royce introduced the 3 shaft engine with RB-211 - this allowed different parts of the engine to rotate at nearer to their optimum speed - it added complexity but improved reliability and efficiency
Even with 3 spools, there's a fundamental issue with fan vs turbine speeds - the best direct-coupled turbine will have horrible efficiency if forced to rotate at the optimum speed for the fan (and vice versa). No matter which way you slice it the RPM requirements for turbines and fans are diametrically opposed. Gearboxes have been the Holy Grail for decades
Whilst this is an aviation channel, I'd love to see what modifications to cores are done for power generation, given the same basic cores are used and in particular how much extra efficiency can be obtained using recuperators, etc when mass/packaging isn't an issue
The fundamental problem with airlines in trouble is how they are not subscribed to Mentour Now!
Thank you for your excellent presentations. You asked for ideas so here is one. The FAA is now recommending Angle of Attack to be incorporated into light aircraft. I agree that it is long overdue. Consider some instruction and insight related to the history of issues of AoA in commercial aircraft. Also the disparity of maneuvering speed definition, too fast? Or too slow?
@MentourNow
Topic idea, and a question: What are the cumulative fuel savings on the 737 from the jurassic to the CFM to the Leap, with the in-between steps. My Dad flew 737-200, 707, DC-8 61,62, 63, 54, then A310, 757 then CL-604, and his fuel checks prior to transat crossings on the Airbus were startling as the numbers were so low on the newer A310. (Kilograms, and efficient!) Every generation saved fuel. Where are we at compared to 1960's / 70's fuel consumption rates to the latest-greatest in fuel per px-seat-mile? Cheers from Canada.
Nice video. As suggested by others, it would be great if you could explain the slow start of the new engines relative to the previous generation.
Dear Mentour, love your shows and your incredible technical insights into the aviation industry - Great Work.!!
I was a propulsion engineer for the USAF and retired in 2012 ................. I still wake up with "propulsion nightmares". Jet engines are amazing, powerful machines but are also powerfully unforgiving when mistakes are made!
Hope they get these issues sorted. Shafts breaking is pretty serious, thought it was a seal failure.
What do you think about the recent accidents? Azerbaijan, q400 crash landing, Jeju 737, klm in Oslo
To start with...the Azerbeijan aircraft crash is very different from others...it was shot down by Russian anti-air defenses..
The others...need to wait for more info...
Very early to talk about those, anything would be speculation at this point aside from the Embraer jet.
I see cooler heads have already prevailed here. Yeah, let's keep it to what we know, and right now we don't know enough.
The Mentour Pilot channel base videos on the final reports, which will take a while...
There might be some coverage here, but channels like blancolirio tend to know what they are talking about with early analysis...
@@jamieammar6131not too early to state that a heavy, immovable base for the ILS gear, right on the extended center line, is idiotic.
The ALF 502 found on the Canadaire CL 600 and the BAE 146 had a geared fan.
You’re not wrong about the LEAP taking forever to start 😂 felt like we were sitting there for 5 minutes to start just one engine 😂
Each engine can take up to 2.5 mins to start when hot, add to that some push back from the gate time when you might not be able to start it is frustrating. The engines take so long to start because of something called “bowed robot motoring” to stabile the engine before fuel and ignition are added. 👋😁
@ ah thanks for that. Was wondering why it would sit there for at least 30 seconds on “start” before fuel would be added
@@buttonmonkey6845 Bowed Rotor, usually in the high pressure compressor due to temperature gradient (bottom vs top of rotor) to avoid excessive blade tip rubs during start
Excelent video. The powder metalurgy issue at P&W was not given much airtime despite the crippling costs to RTX. Well done for addressing. Issue. Are the shaft bowing issues causing long start-up times an issue for all engine manufacturers? I understood RR 3-shaft engine design led to shorter shafts. Does that mean RR engines less likely to get shaft bow, and hence can be stated quicker? Hmm.
Hey I'm here first 😊
Thanks Petter for giving or rather feeding my (ALL THINGS AIRLINES) addiction.
Awesome video.
How?
Kudos Petter, on correcting your pronunciation of Rolls Royce 👌 Thanks for your great work generally.
A nit to pick: AA’s 767s all used the GE CF6 engine. No P&W.
I didn't know that! Thank you
@ if you change it to United it’ll be correct. 😉 Their 767s had P&W.
GE engines had historically been more reliable than P&W, period....
Gott Nytt År och God Fortsättning Petter.
I guess CFM has many new customers recently. By the way, WizzAir's (probably the largest A32x aircraft operator using GTF-1000) profit dropped by 33%, since they started undergo these repairs.
@@GThu1 all manufacturers have issues. There’s a reason they don’t brag when others have issues. None are free of their own problems
Could you please cover some of the top military aircraft like the F-35 as they are amazing aircraft. lm fascinated by them and potentially this could be a great area to report on.😁 Happy New Year.
Since 1950-s gearbox of a similar type ( actually two-stage) has been used for NK-15 (15000BHP) turboprop engines still used on Tu-95 today.
@@olgakarelova6965
15000 HP is a lot of power but the newer GTF have even more. Considering when the Soviet Union developed that gearbox, it is very impressive. They were definitely a pathfinder.
I think, it is easier to make it work on turbo-prop than on jet engines. Much lower rotation speed.
→ certarepl
“Much lower rotational speed”, not really, the prop tips on the Tu-95 are just as fast as that of a fan and the input RPM is comparable (basically they are reasonably close). The real issue is more about the comparison of transmitted power and that is basically a design parameter. The V-22 gearboxes are highly stressed with low margins and that is an issue. The GTF gearbox has much larger stress margins for good reliability.
And the Tu-95 still has supersonic prop tips. Even with the reduction gear. Which is why it's so damn loud.
Designed by former Junkers engineers who taken prisoner.
Very interesting technical insights than are often even unknown in such details to people working there..great job...
Thanks! Glad you found it insightful.
Lack of maintance is what kills ! 😢
This video jas too many mentions of "chunks of metal"
Hello
Mentor pilot, I truly enjoyed all of your videos, very informative and helpful.
Could you please perhaps review cargo industry as well?
Unless you’ve covered this topic before?
Given recent order increases by Air Canada, and the overall 'backlog' for the A220 orders, it would seem that the airlines generally trust that P&W has sorted out the issues on this engine version, at least: i.e.
" Air Canada’s total firm orders for the A220-300 stands at 65 aircraft. As at the end of November 2024, Airbus had received close to 900 orders from 32 customers for the A220, ..."
Many thanks for all your excellent videos and a very happy 2025! 👍
Thank you, and a Happy New Year to you too!
Cant blame those issues on pilot error like Boeing does. Hope PW can get this worked out. Billions in cost sounds pretty ominous. I hope Boeing can get their respective $%^t together too actually. America needs strong companies.
It also reminds us that ALL airline manufacturers have issues, IF Boeing can get it's act together -- the bad press from this re Airbus can only help them Boeing.
Great information... Thank You and Happy 2025
Thanks for watching and a Happy New Year to you, too!
Pratt & Whitney should have provided TWO to FOUR complete engines to each customer so they could swap out the engines and repair the removed engines to then install on the next one. So essentially just doing swaps good for bad and then return the last engines back to P&W.
That's what we try to do, and indeed airlines will have fluctuating positive and negative serviceable spares. The problem is the massive backlog of shop visits due to engines driven off-wing by the powdered metal situation. We're honestly working so hard to get as many engines through the shop as possible (safely of course).
@@natebot321are you Pratt and Whitney?
The problem with that is that some airlines (AirBaltic for example who are an all A220-300 airline) may have their entire fleet running this kind of engine. For AirBaltic 4 Engines is 2 planes out of 49. With each engine out for the best part of a year for repairs, they will still have a fair amount of their fleet out.
@@mrtech2259 I work at one of their MROs.
@@cjmillsnunBut replacement of engines is probably quicker and easier than repair.
Would love to see and hear more about engine start times and why/how that's an issue and what are the trends there. Thanks!
21:25 “We don’t jet know” 😅
I'm a GA pilot. The repair time seems unbelievable! We're just fixing it, not building it from raw alloy.
It's also incredible to me that they can't have some LOANER engines to help with the delay. A delay of a day or a week would be COMPLETELY different than a delay of MANY months, re airline operations, obviously.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
How do you deal with fan blade containment in an open fan design?
Same way you deal with it in turbo prop airplanes. First, you reinforce the part of the fuselage where the blade is most likely to hit. Second, you make the blade and the attach point stronger. Both solutions add mass, which decreases efficiency.
You don't. And that is probably one of the main reasons we haven't seen engines of that type in production aircraft. If one of the blades broke, it could wreck the aircraft's tail, probably destroying rudder and horizontal stabilizers, not to mention hydraulic lines and other vital parts in the fuselage.
I would call that a major unsolved problem with those engines.
Swiss BCS3 near Graz on Dec 23rd 2024, uncontained engine failure ( PW1524G), smoke on board. Apparently, the engine's main shaft was found broken. Sadly, a male cabin crew member died whilst other crew and passengers were injured by the smoke event. This is clearly a very serious event and again puts this engine series under scrutiny.
How exactly are the airlines being compensated though? I mean, they bought the products, expecting them to work, and suddenly they don't. I'd honestly be pretty damn pissed if i were an airline boss. And the last thing I'd do is pay someone to lose me money for a YEAR
Little question why you are not "an airline boss".
@@Katchi_ if your going to go full Autist with that type of reply then you might as well not comment
There must be insurance and since P&W have service contracts with their customers they must compensate in some way.
@@sanjay_swainairlines have gone bankrupt, bs about them paying compensation
Brilliant presenter! Always good commentaries.
So if the turbofan has now a gear box between the jet engine and fan why not just use turboprops then?
Traditional turbofan designs don't do well at high altitude & speed, and they tend to be louder.
Yep I would like to know more about the start of the engines also
1:24 "Let me explain" (tag line from Coby)
Not true. Coby says “Let me explane” 😊
Yea. Coby only explanes.
This was a great and informative iteration of airplane engine safety issues. I will try and make sure the next airplane I take is not a P&W until all these issues are sorted out and fixed.
Thanks for that comment. Which planes are the safest - a320, a321 or a321neo? I've heard too many bad news about the reliability of the p&w engines and don't know what planes are more safer?
It’s also worth mentioning that similar to UA328, AF66, which involved GP7200, had a PW designed portion of the joint venture engine explode.
Flew the same aircraft when it was restored. I believe the last letters where HPJE without checking?