What REALLY Makes Sonic Adventure 2 So Divisive
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Once upon a time, it may have seemed Sonic Adventure 2 was universally beloved, but nowadays that's evidently not the reality. Let's do a deep dive analysis and nail down what makes this game so polarizing. #Battle #Retrospective #Review
0:00 - Intro
2:35 - Dark Story
10:48 - Hero Story
19:36 - Last Story
30:15 - Presentation
38:39 - Speed Stages
44:45 - Mech Stages
51:02 - Hunt Stages
57:50 - Sonic Adventure 1 vs. 2
1:01:35 - Rank System
1:07:34 - Missions
1:11:32 - Bosses
1:14:37 - Chao Garden
1:17:05 - Conclusion
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▶ Original Sonic Adventure 2 review: • Sonic Adventure 2 Revi... - Ігри
I am going to address some of the common responses I've received regarding the story:
1. "Have you seen what governments have done throughout our history?" - Yes, I have. But if the game wanted the President and GUN to be a commentary on how evil and corrupt world leaders are, it should've explored this a lot better with motivations and reasoning. You can't just go that route (especially for a Sonic game), and then not establish or do anything with it.
2. Anything related to Rouge's role as a government spy, it does not make sense. She is far too reckless, and the game simply does not go into it at all. People have also said Rouge left the Emeralds in the Eclipse Cannon because the device was almost charged up, and she couldn't stop it anymore, but think a little bit about the implications of this. This means there NEVER was a method for Rouge to intervene and save the planet from the moment she joined. Why does she help Eggman and Shadow, then? Why does she still give pointers to Tails having the seventh Emerald? The President absolutely didn't order this, because he would have himself obliterated for the sake of collecting information on Shadow (???), and if Rouge doesn't steal the Emeralds because she has nowhere to go with them... Well, her whole motivation implodes on itself, because why should she care what happens to the Earth? She just wanted her jewels, right? Just wanting jewels, even at the cost of the planet SHE LIVED ON, would make her a stupid, one-dimensional character, anyway. But once the ARK is set on a collision course, she is clearly concerned about the fate of the planet, so there you go.
3. "Sonic was used as a cover-up for Shadow by GUN" - I had heard this one a million times before I wrote the video (hence why I used a clip of Sonic meeting Shadow when wrapping up the story), but I have dug and dug, and found nothing in the game itself that hints at this. Meanwhile, the game does play it up as a simple confusion, as seen by Amy and Eggman initially mistaking the two. If the cover-up thing was the intended angle by the developers, they really conveyed it terribly. Moreover, what does arresting Sonic really accomplish for GUN? The average Joe would have no clue about or way to research Shadow and his relation to the incident on the ARK. Maybe they don't want the President to find out about Shadow? But the President of all people would (or should) be the first one to question such a cover-up. Also, the President evidently knows about the existence of Project Shadow, anyway, considering he sends Rouge to gather information on it all.
4. "Sonic was seen as Super Sonic in SA1, so it's not far out there they would see Shadow as an evil transformation of Sonic." This one I can see a little more, but Shadow still has a bunch of different accessories and stuff. Still, I can see it, but GUN should simply know better. They are the ones who have been holding onto Shadow for 50 years, and know he's broken free. They ought to know Sonic ain't Shadow. "So the cover-up IS true!" Again, terribly conveyed if intended, and executed poorly regardless. Perhaps it could have worked if it was all written and communicated well, but it's not. I just can't take the whole of the first half of the Hero campaign seriously for the reasons I went into in the video. If GUN were seen in the second half of the game, and really had a solid plan to stop Eggman (which they very clearly did not), I would find it a little less dumb. Wouldn't it have been cool if GUN redeemed themselves somewhat by helping in the fight against Eggman and the Biolizard, and maybe apologized and made amends with Sonic and Tails in the aftermath of it all? As is, I find GUN arresting and chasing Sonic (and Tails) contrived and painful to watch.
5. I may have misunderstood something regarding the Biolizard. It seems that he does not have a special organ to Chaos Control without an Emerald, but rather it was still able to tap into an energy resource of the Emeralds? Apparently this is hinted at by Sonic during the Finalhazard fight, but you'll have to excuse me for missing it, because dishing out story critical information like this well into a boss fight that I always beat before this dialog comes up is a really good way of conveying things. *cough* Anyway, in the moment of the Master Emerald neutralizing the Chaos Emeralds, it's just jarring and confusing that the ARK, with all its built up velocity already, immediately stops dead in its tracks due to the absence of Chaos Emerald energy, while the Lizard can still utilize some of that energy? On top of that, the Lizard showing up and carrying out this plan in the first place is still an asspull, because nobody could've programmed it to do so. Gerald was imprisoned and never went back to the ARK, while the Lizard was left to rot on the ARK for 50 years. And like I said, Shadow wasn't responsible for this either, since he's all too shocked the Lizard even performed Chaos Control. It feels to me as if they prioritized the concept of Shadow fighting his prototype, and having an explosive finale, over how much sense this all actually makes.
Have you ever seen Khonjin's competitive review of this game? It's definitely worth a watch if you have a passion for the sonic adventure 2 story.
@@boofloof1996 This. It's really solid.
@@TheGasMan666 It's a mind blowing video, huh?
I've seen it. Wouldn't be surprised if some of people's theories and "corrections" here are coming from that.
To me, the video doesn't really change my mind on any of the critiques I've made.
@@RetropolisZone Anyone can voice thier own thoughts on the situation. Your video is a much deeper dive, so people can only compare so much. People aren't going to always agree. "corrections" if it really is a correction. Just roll with it, you're allowed to have your own thoughts on the correction. If it's clearly an opinion? You're allowed to have your own thoughts on that as well. You don't make a video like this expecting people to agree with you 100%. It's a good thing if people are talking about it.
Shiro Maekawa, the scenario writer, always says in interviews that his life goal was to move someone emotionally with a story he wrote. He also said he pursued a career in videogames specifically because he thought it was the only way he could tell stories, thinking his drawing skills werent good enough to draw manga
So yes, there was alot of passion. Also the story was actually made before anything else, it dictated what levels the characters would go through instead of the other way around
This video is amazing, I hope you realize that
Agreed
We can still assume they'd locked down the idea of three playstyles done evenly-ish between the good guys and "bad" guys as well as each other before the story was started on. Of course, that wouldn't be necessary for reused level themes as the old Zone/Act structure does that already, but it DID mostly give each of the Hero and Dark sides its own take on each theme, with only City Escape, Pyramid Cave/Wild Canyon and Security Hall staying to one side. Of course, it's plausible that rival teams would go through mostly the same types of places anyway, so the general game design informed the story which in turn informed the environments.
I strongly recommend you to view the story with the Japanese dialogue. It doesn't fix everything but you'd be surprised at how many localization issues there are.
GUN are also clear the American police/military. Look up how often they shoot children/disabled people/pet dogs and the space colony ark seems very in character hell even GUN doing nothing during the death egg makes sense as Eggman was threatening South Island and angle island not them. A bit like how the USA backed the Mujahideen against the progressive Afghanistan people. Then when they won the became the taliban and the USA turned in them. Also they were clearly hoping to control shadow and use him as a weapon.
GUN is the best bit about SA2
I watched like 10 min during a story video, it’s CRAZY how much better it is
Thrn I guess SA2 is in need of a re-dub in a future re-release.
@@CarloNassar Or just take a Like A Dragon route and include de-localized subs
Shadows "is that what... chaos control is?!?" Being a very glaring issue in the localized final story.
I think you perfectly described and encapsulated the SA2 discourse into one video. I know you’ve been struggling with staying motivated, but I really appreciate you getting this out there! It’s quality stuff!
Thanks for all of the great content you put together. Keep those Retrospective's coming!
Thank you so much for the Super Thanks, and your continued support! It means a lot. 😁
Glad to see you’re back man, your retrospectives are some of the best on UA-cam
That means a lot to read, it really does!
@@RetropolisZone Anytime man keep up the great work
This is probably my favorite game of all time, it may not be for everyone and it may not be perfect from a critical standpoint, but to me everything about it is on point.
It’s clear to see how much thought went into the script for this video. You’ve always put out high-quality analyses on the channel, but this one might be my favorite so far. Very intelligent and concise perspective on a flawed, but very interesting game.
Thank you! I'm glad the effort for the script is noticed. Lots of revisions and making sure everything was clear and concise without being too word-y!
@@RetropolisZone Sonic Adventure 2 kinda layed down the Ground work for both Unleashed and Genrations in terms of Spectacle🥳
It could be nostalgia, but I do miss how ambitious Sonic was during this time and this is one of few Sonic games I return to. I cannot be bothered with how the franchise is now, sadly.
I also really do miss when Sonic was trying to push boundaries and being ahead of the curve instead of placidly riding it and being a reactionary trendfollower
In the 2000s:
- Sonic went actual 3D
- Debuted hunting stages, shooting stages, hub worlds
- Multi character, interweaving stories (Twice, with one being so ambitious they literally had not enough time)
- An incredibly in-depth pet sim
- Class-based team gameplay
- Choice matters style of stage progression
- Hack and Slash platformer
- Racing but with hoverboards
- On-rails action platformer with RPG elements
- (The mechanical peak) of Boost formula
In the 2010s:
- Stories reduced to Blues Clues
- Single character
- Embarassing recycle of classic Sonic
- Embarassing sequel to the Racing games
- Subpar Mario Galaxy clone
- Embarassing recycle of Boost formula
Missing out on Gen's/frontier's..frontiers get's to much hate for absouletely no reason and Gen's is peak Sonic imo
Some modern sonic games are decent, but Sonic Mania is the only new Sonic game that's actually great since the classics, and Adventure, IMO.
8:58 This dialogue never actually specifies that he knew all along and the japanese dialogue also implies on context that he only managed to look her up recently. I feel like this is just something that does not translate over too well. I really don't know much about japanese storytelling, but the way this scene is handled reminds me of how the language itself is very contextbased. In context, it seems like an incredibly logical assumtion that he wouldn't have accepted the deal if he already knew who she was, especially considering he wouldn't even have known who to trace back yet. After he accepts the deal, the earliest he reasonably could have looked her up was after he stopped trailing Tails.
10:30 Nowhere really. And besides for SA1, this is not an issue with continuity imo. I certainly didn't see any humans besides eggman in the classics, so it can reasonably be assumed that GUN would either not bother yet(due to it happening in the middle of nowhere) or simply couldn't move out crosscountry like that in time because Sonic always stopped Eggman right away when he got anywhere near noticable. If there was more than one previous game with a human population at risk, I would agree. But like that, not exactly.(Also, this seems more like an issue with SA1 because there logically *should* have been more official interferance than a random policesquad that runs away in the intro. The game wants to tell me people already know of Eggman's threat, but there was no defence readied yet?)
14:54 For all it's worth, SA2 was intended to be the last Sonic game if Sega does not properly manage the transition out of the consolemarket. This is not a defence of the game because it really barely matters, just a bit of context to consider. It being harder to tell more stories would have been irrelevant if there were no more stories, so this choice looks less dumb from that perspective.
26:11 Sonic during the final fight actually theorizes that the Lizard is still using the power of the emeralds. It probably saved up energy while they were still going, which is not actually impossible regarding past, present and future continuity. If Chaos Energy was a binary "yes/no", then Perfect Chaos and Sonic couldn't have drawn opposites sides of the energy or how multiple characters transform at the same time(Which aren't always physically right next to each other while the form is still going). One could argue "Ok, but why don't they just remove the Chaos Emeralds then and let it run out of energy?", even tho...the ARK breaks through the atmosphere just 4 minutes after the fight starts and is unstoppable at that point without teleporting it away. I reckon the fight had to happen from a logical standpoint.
27:40 He is in the super form tho? The cutscene shows it. And this is not like the detail of "Sonic got his ring even tho he still has it in the cutscene", because non-super shadow does actually exist in the game's files. The game's dialogue also makes clear that the issue here was that he stayed in the form too long(Without getting used to it over time like Sonic, thus it was too much to handle physically. Internal damage basically.), instead of the issue being that he left the form too quickly.
Otherwise, it's either a matter of me just disagreeing on more subjective stuff or agreeing on GUN somehow seemingly not even trying to stop Eggman here. Heck, the dang President did more to respond to this entire thing than GUN did(Even tho that is their job) and that is just sad. Maybe this would be the type of thing a remake should try to straighten out, assuming that Sega even understands the script to begin with, since even back then they seemed to misunderstand what it was trying to say.
8:58 I had a feeling this may have had to do with some translation shenanigans. But yeah, presented as is in English, it comes across really weird.
10:30 I can see your point that it doesn't apply for the Classics, but I feel, since Eggman goes into space in Sonic 2 and 3, GUN should've been involved there. Especially since GUN has had their business in space before, and it's Gerald's grandson we're talking about. I purposefully showed a clip from SA1, though, since like you said, that's where the biggest problem is. SA1 only showed a dinky police force, so it feels inconsistent with that.
14:54 I actually had this exact bit of context in the script, but ended up cutting it. Anything that feels obvious, or that doesn't really have an impact on the point I am making, I tend to remove for the sake of not meandering on something.
26:11 Yeah, it could be that the Lizard charged himself up. I just think, in that moment that you stop the ARK from its collision course, it feels pretty cheap and also kinda confusing that you basically did it all for nothing, because lol Lizard just Chaos Control'd, anyway. And since the ARK itself specifically just STOPS, and doesn't conserve any of the Emerald's energy to keep going, it feels even more confusing. Moreover, as I pointed out, it makes little sense to me that the Lizard is even programmed to carry out this plan. Shadow didn't program the thing to do so, and Gerald had absolutely no way of doing it, since he was imprisoned while the Lizard stayed on the ARK. To me, it seems they prioritized the concept of getting Shadow to fight the Biolizard, rather than how much sense it actually really makes.
I also want to note that I am not a fan of giving explanations as for what's going on in the middle of a fight, based on a timer, because that means players can miss important context if they beat the boss too fast. Shadow the Hedgehog took that to the extreme by revealing something big like 8 minutes into the final boss. People are going to miss that stuff, and since it's a final boss, it's likely one may be too concentrated on fighting the boss, rather than paying attention to dialog.
27:40 I may have got it wrong that Shadow doesn't manage to stay in his super form, but the end result is the same: he dies. I didn't use this as a point of critique at all, so eh?
Appreciate the thoughtful comment, though! Nice to see you weren't upset or angry in the way you responded. I've seen differently.
ua-cam.com/play/PLhnIPa8XAn7x6g8UvkO0UaiTHtK-VBUbd.html
Here is a translation of the Japanese versions of Sonic Adventure 2 and the rest of the main and spin-off games.
Nice
No shadow took off his bracelet inhibitors so he could go full power just like in sonic 06 and as stated there he would go out of control and that's how sonic got his inhibitor bracelet because shadow took it off. This also explains why shadow is a robot in sonic heroes because he has the other inhibitor ring on even though we know that sonic has the other one.
We never knew what happened too the original shadow from sa2 as far as I'm aware.
Note (I haven't finished shadow the hedgehog yet. Im in the last story tho) the shadow from sonic battle acts completely different to the one from sonic heroes and acts like he remembers maria and everything even though he supposedly has amnesia and it takes place before shadow the hedgehog. So as far as I know there are 2 shadows not counting eggamans army at the end of team dark in sonic heroes.
@@elibonham4388 No, it's the original the entire time and that is confirmed in a secret quote in Shadow the Hedgehog. It's really dumb and contradictory to what was established, but that is how it is.
After watching so many Reviews of SA2, from praising it to high heavens like J's Reviews and KingK, and also harshly criticizing it like Johnny and Golden Bolt, I'd say this is the most fair Review
You nailed explaining how many fans can still love and keep coming back to it, but also why some doesn't like it's design choices, especially the newcomers
I still heavily enjoy the Speed and Mech stages because it's so fun to get those delicious A Ranks, even if the Mechs could improve the controls and give a bigger incentive to get high scores
But I just can't enjoy the Treasure Hunting because of all the issues you've mentioned, but I'll bring another problem about those stages, you can just keep resetting the stage to get the best RNG of the emerald locations, so it encourages noob players to depend on the RNG than actually learning the stages' layouts and mechanics, which is a huge flaw
Anyway, great Review as always, hopefully you get more motivated to be more active, me and many others loves your In-Depth Reviews
You forgot damn fucking Ruby of Blue. That fucking dude is so clearly biased.
I don`t think J praised it to high heavens, he was just more optimistic about the game.
But yea overall I mostly agree, except I also enjoy the treasure hunting stages (except Mad space) but my only problem is TAILS` mech stages (except the desert one, that's the only Tails mech stage I truly like)
But as Eggman every single mech stage gives you the sadistic joy of blasting through everything in your sight as you ascend to godhood (along with nice platforming), with the best example being Cosmic wall.
The mech stages were meant to be for Eggman, Tails stages were most likely added on the last minute or very late as Tails wasn`t meant to be playable, so they couldn`t give them the same amount of thought.
Edit: I think I'm wrong about Tails' stages being added on the last minute... I don't really remember why I said this.
I think it's more like the devs did Eggman 1st, then Tails, but by the time they got to Tails they had to rush a bit.
That's just my speculation.
@@pkmntrainerred4247 It's been some time since I've watched J's Review of SA2, so I can't say for sure, but I barely remember him criticizing it. For example, he said all the changes made in the Speed, Mech and Treasure Hunting stages were a straight improvement of SA1, but Retropolis explains that they are fundamentally different and it's better or worse depending on your preference
But I agree, the Mech stages from Eggman were far better than Tails', it just has the right amount of shooting and platforming, but I think Tails was added mid-development, not late because he had a decent amount of stages but far less refined
@@ayrtonjoga I did watch J's video on SA2 a few times and yea he did say that overall the SA2 stages were improvements, but he did point of the main flaws of the game, tho he mostly said that they're not severe to its quality.
J often goes on a more personal level with his reviews (which he makes clear) so if he really likes a game, while he will point out it's flaws and try to give it a fair view, he can see past the game's flaws if he sees the pros as greater than cons.
He saw what the game got right as more than what errors it had, so in the video he talks mostly about the pros.
So criticism was there, but very short and very light.
Also yea Tails probably got his stages mid development, not last minute.
Man, when will SEGA learn to give their devs some more time?
@@pkmntrainerred4247 Well, they did give them plenty of time with Forces apparently and that came out the way it did. But Frontiers is certainly a lot better.
This review gave me a new understanding of why sa2 is so divisive nowadays and why sa1 is preferred. I personally love sa2 warts and all but while I sorta understood why people didn't before it this review gave me a much better perspective of why there is such a huge divide over this game and how the flaws really turn off a load of old and new players.
Great video. Honestly one of the best I've seen on sa2.
Fantastic content as always. Your videos give great insight into the design of each game while still taking a definitive, personal stance. Your videos really have come a long way and you have improved greatly. I know these are a massive pain to make but I truly do think these are some of the best reviews on UA-cam.
That's high praise, but I appreciate the support a ton!
Greatest 3D Sonic Game Ever.
*One of the greatest games ever
Nope- that’s Unleashed or Generations.
@@Mojo1356hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaaha
Great in-depth look! Was a little weird see the story get so much focus at the beginning, but honestly, for a game with so many cutscenes and that had so much of its resources dedicated to its story, guess it was part of what it needed for yout usual balanced, fair assessment. Cheers!
I was watching you back catalog last night hoping for a new drop and here it is.
Thanks RZ. You are part of a balanced breakfast.
Glad you enjoyed the video! 😁
1:14:38
I can't unsee Eggman doing the tree, no matter how old I get.
This is probably the most fair review of SA2 on yt
The most underrated channel on youtube is back.
Great, I hope we get more! But take your time, obviously!
Excellent video, and very much worth the Patreon subscription!
If I had to add anything, it'd be that even though not everyone will like all the playstyles (as you said), when you do, I believe this game's campaign has less padding than pretty much any other 3D Sonic game, making it all the more replayable for those who are adjusted to it. SA1 and '06 had bloated hub worlds; Heroes and Shadow had multiple playthroughs of the same levels; Unleashed and Lost World have arbitrary progression gates; and the Storybook games, Colors, and Generations force you to play acts that are seemingly meant to be optional. SA2 is standout in that I can't think of any issue like this in it.
...well I guess there's also Forces, but we don't talk about that one.
Holy shit Iggy is here, man when are you gonna do another review?
What? Other than the jungle, I’d hardly call Adventure 1’s hub world bloated.
Also, half of Knuckles’ stages are padding since you’re not progressing the story in any manner for most of then. As is mission street and hidden base since Tails should be able to just fly and complete the missions in his plane.
@@Mojo1356 I don't put that much weight in story context when it comes to determining padding in Sonic games; if I did, most levels in the Classics would be considered padding. What matters more to me is if the levels are substantially new content, and the levels for Knuckles and Tails in SA2 at least pass that much.
Regarding Adventure 1's hub world, it doesn't seem bloated at first since it only takes a minute to get to where you need to go, but when the levels take less than a minute to beat (which is often the case for half the characters), it starts feeling like a drag.
@@iggyminious the hub world only feels like a drag for Amy and Big because of how slow they are
@@iggyminious as for new content, that is also some dangerous territory with SA2 because many stages are just slightly altered for gameplay style transitioning or are blatantly reused. The biggest offenders for this being White Forest and Green Jungle being near identical to one another and Sky Rail literally being Pumpkin Hill in the daytime. Mission Street is poor man’s Radical Highway and so on.
As someone who has watched a weirdly large amount of Sonic game retrospectives and I’m not even that much into the franchise, this one has to be one of the best. First video I’ve seen of yours coming from King K’s recommendation. Subbed and look forward to more.
Thank you! It may sound stupid, but that kinda thing means the world.
My next video on the agenda is Ocarina of Time as the start to a 3D Zelda retrospective, so if you came from KingK, that might be something to look forward to. 👍
@@RetropolisZone Definitely not dumb. Video is nicely paced, concise and doesn’t stay on one subject for too long. The way you speak makes it easy to kick back and listen to possibly any game you’d ever want to make a video on.
@@RetropolisZone that one is gonna bring a whole lot of controversy since far too many call it the greatest game ever. The water temple made is more than enough to think otherwise lol
RTZ it’s good to see you upload again! I love your content and hope you’ve been well
RZ, I've loved your content for many years, it's been so fun watching you grow and collaborate and evolve your content. Your Sonic Adventure 2 video was fantastic and perfectly captured what really does make the game so polarizing. The story section was extremely interesting as it shines light on bizarre parts of the plot that I and many other fans would never have even thought of. You really have an immense amount of talent with making these videos. Please don't give up! No matter how long it takes, as long as you're making something you're proud of, you've made it as a UA-camr. There are many UA-camrs who's views peaked 4 or more years ago but they still keep making the content they love to make regardless. You're not going to capture everyone's attention with every upload but there will always be people out there interested in what you have to say. Even if that number may not be as large as it once was, many people still find worth in your videos. I can't imagine how stressful and discouraging this all must be. Please keep your head up and have a positive outlook!
I really appreciate this supportive comment! Thank you so much. I have indeed been feeling down about the whole thing this weekend, but I'm feeling slightly better about it now.
A few weeks ago I decided I wanted to try out Sonic, just out of curiosity. I've heard that Sonic has been through hell for the past 2 decades so it made me wonder, what were the good old classic games like? I had played a bit of Sonic Advance when I was young so I decided to give that another try. I started playing it and I definately enjoyed it. But I lost my touch with it and kinda forgot about it. Not too long after I found out that to truly beat the game you had to get all the chaos emeralds from the special stages, which I thought was really interesting and told myself that I'll definately get back to the game.
Fairly recently though, I've watched your video on SA1 and I'm watching this video now. And I can confidentaly say that your videos have served as a major catalyst for my growing interest in Sonic. I've already beat Sonic Advance as sonic, but now I'm working my way through the special stages so I can get the true ending. After that I plan to check out the other classics, such as the other 2 advance games and the Sonic Adventure games.
After starting this journey I only now realise how amazing core Sonic gameplay is. Considering the time the classics were released, it's impressive how much they stood out as platformers:
1. Instead of the generic level design of "Go right to progress", you have mulitple paths to get to the end of the goal. Which path is the most efficient is up to you to figure out.
2. Sonic offered multiple forms of gameplay through different characters.
3. There is a normal ending and a true/complete ending.
4. SA1 and SA2 were ambitious when it came to the stories.
When I found out that to truly beat SA1 you had to beat the game as all the characters I was truly astonished, again, considering the time it released. I can't wait to continue my adventure through these sonic games, thank you for helping to open my eyes to how creative and innovated Sonic was!
You know, I wanna make games some day..... maybe I'll make a Sonic game one daya once I understand it enough? (if you bothered to read this long message, thanks)
Edit: What the heck you get GHZ Act 1 after getting all the emblems?!?! This game truly was ambitious
I still enjoy this game to this day. Personally the first game is enjoyed more for me, but I do enjoy this one with it's more depth for stages and the way Chao garden works.
I love your videos. This is easily one of my favorite games of all time. I can literally play and talk about this game all day. Great vid and interesting analysis.
In my opinion, if the depth of the Chao Garden was more emphasized in gameplay, it would have made the game so much better. You practically have to look everything up online to actually understand how deep it can get. Also some of the event Chaos are somewhat lost in time (without cheating)
I love coming back and watching your reviews man. They’re so entertaining and always keep me invested the whole time. Keep making videos man, they’re awesome😎
After watching it, it this is probably the only video on this game that won’t make someone heavily upset. A massive accomplishment my dude!
The king is back! Your videos are always so informative and so much fun to watch/listen to. Thank you for the video, very good stuff. Have you ever thought about making a "surface level" shorter and spoilerfree reviews? Kind of like recommendations or something.Or are long in-depth reviews your only focus? I would love to see how you would tackle a short recomendatioin-type review on some recent/upcoming games lol.
Thank you for the kind words! Shorter stuff/buyer's guides aren't really my thing, to be honest. I would just wanna go more in-depth, lol.
Really glad I gave this video a chance. A nuanced, funny retrospective about a game I always loved. Thanks for the review, friend. You earned a fat subbie.
This was really tightly scripted dude, great video
SA2 is my favorite game ever and i can see a lot of the things you said, heck, my best friend is trying the franchise out after only playing Unleashed years ago and my first recomendation was Generations since i know it's a less flawed game, he even said "wasn't Adventure 2 like your favorite thing"
SA2 is not for everybody, but i sure know it is for me, i always had a lot of love for it but wasn't my favorite until that fateful day in 2015 when i discover the Chao Glitch to speed up the leveling up and went for the rest of the emblems, that experience, getting an A Rank on every stage, realizing i fully mastered all intended (and not intended) dev strategies i went like "Dang, this may actually be my favorite game ever"
That showed me that getting over some quirks can deliver with better understanding of the full idea
For that i started trying to understand every game by 100% them, that lead to me enjoying the speedrun side of Super Monkey Ball, entering the Metroidvania genre and getting into Tactical games i would never think about like Fire Emblem and Valkyria Chronicles among others
I have to agree with basically everything said in this comment
I would recommend the Adventure Games to get someone into the series rather than Generations.
Great video! Very entertaining analysis!
Weird I was just watching your X4-X8 videos the other day. Super happy to see a new video :)
It's nice to see you again
Finally my first patreon payment to your channel, keep up the great work. I enjoy your content and the speedrun on Twitch. 🙂
I’ll always prefer Sonic heroes over the adventure games simply because it’s a more straightforward affair. I’ve always prefered the Genesis era and the 3D games just don’t have that much of a similar vibe to me outside of Heroes.
Different and not my thing doesn’t mean bad tho. Sloppy writing details and baffling gameplay decisions aside, the things the adventure games bring to sonic oozes with charm. I think people get hung up on that sometimes; start feeling like it should only be one way when it really doesn’t.
Same
I appreciate the ambition of SA1 but Sonic's stages are the only reason I keep coming back to it, because the rest of the campaigns are either mildly enjoyable or boring
And I appreciate the more varied and skillful gameplay of SA2, but because it forces you to play at other styles, is a design philosophy that can makes you either love or hate the game, especially for newcomers
Heroes is just straight to the point, maintaining a good balance of open and explorative with more linear and gimmicky levels, the only thing I dislike about Heroes is Team Rose's campaign is too easy and feels insignificant to the overall story, and you need to finish the game 4 times for the last story
Great video man! You were able to explain your points and add very fair critiques without sounding immature, it really openned my eyes to some unknown aspects of this game that I and many others hold at such a high regard. I watched your video a while after Ruby's one, and now I'm kind of torn on my opinion of the game, I really love it but I'm still formulating my thoughts on it, but I'm glad that there are such passionate people out there talking about the stuff that I like so much :)
This video definitely made me more consciously aware of _why_ certain design decisions came to be in this game. It doesn't make me like or tolerate many of the results any more, no - but it's nonetheless educational and valuable to gain some additional understanding as to how and why my problems with this game actually came to be to begin with. So thanks a lot! A very, very educational and interesting video.
Wow, I've been watching your videos for over 7 years. Absolutely surreal. You've come a long way, my friend! Truly, your original Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 retrospectives were the first retrospectives I ever watched. You sparked my interest in these types of videos, and I thank you for that. I look forward to what you create next!
Thank you for still being around! I definitely still remember your name from since the beginning, so you're one of the OGs!
@@RetropolisZone You're very welcome! It has been a pleasure to be here from the ground floor and to see you rise to this level!
I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the game. Not that I agree with everything of course, but I think you did a good job at discussing how the opinions can vary so much. It sort of feels like an analysis of the game's polarizing nature, rather than an analysis of the game as a whole (not that that's a bad thing, as I think you did a pretty good job).
You know, I think for most people, it was your Mega Man reviews that introduced them to your channel. However, for me, it was actually your Sonic reviews. Your Sonic 1 video (the first I saw) in particular I remember being perhaps the best review I had seen on the game. I'm glad that over the years, you've been able to grow as a channel and continue to make great content-Sonic or otherwise.
I know that you've recently felt down about the UA-cam grind as of late, and I know this video hasn't helped much in that regard. However, regardless of what you decide to do in the future, I want you to take solace in the fact that no matter what, you've made a lot of great video content along the way. I know you've been an inspiration to a good number of people (including me), and in this world, leaving an impact like that is perhaps one of the most meaningful things someone can do.
Great video as always man, thanks for the retrospective.
Thank you for the very supportive comment! It makes me feel a little better about what I do and have done with this channel when I read stuff like this.
This game is part of my childhood when I met Sonic and bought the "Battle" version with the money I had when I was 10. I still really don´t like it because of the many points of gameplay well argued here, but I finally A ranked every mission some days ago. It was painful and enraging sometimes with how broken the colision and movement is sometimes and with the design, but I still am impressed and appreciate how the devs managed to make this game with how Sega was at the time. I greatly appreciate how respectful yet harsh enough this review was.
I want to try 100% on the GameCube. I frequently hear that the collision detection on the HD ports is super jank, and it has been from my experience. Unfortunately, I’m not looking forward to any chao grinding I’d have to do again.
The Treasure hunting levels have perfect controls and the most replay-ability I used to not like them that much back in 2001 but now there my favorite part of the game
*they’re
@@HistoryandReviews thanks 😂
Replay in that you’re gonna do them a lot because the A rank is bs for half of them
What an outstanding review!!
Great video as always!
Thank you!
You are back at it with a banger video(according to the comment, i have not watched it yet),but the fact that you are back is enough RZ, have fun with the video you are making as always
What a great review! I’m always worried when people review one of my favorite games of all time, love it too much, but all your points are very fair and it made me look at some things from another perspective. In particular the Eggman and Tails sections.
Definitely curious to check out your other reviews!
I totally get that feeling of being weary! Especially since the game has had its beatings on UA-cam. But I'm glad you came away relieved even if I had my fair share of critiques. 😁
Thank you for bringing me back to the past with one of the games I remember most from my childhood. The thought that we all share fond memories of this game and the first one makes me appreciate having played them over and over again. Team Shadow
You know this video's called "What REALLY Makes Sonic Adventure 2 So Divisive", right? Which implies we in fact DO NOT all share fond memories of the game.
17:36
On the contrary, I think the pace break is good. It lets you relax for a while and take a break from the story, and his inclusion kinda makes sense as every stage was making him progress more towards the place where Tails` Kart stage starts, as shown by the stage select map, but I think Pumpkin hill should`ve had some noticeable buildings in the background to hint towards this.
But yea, him hitting the emerald instead of Eggman felt kinda stupid, should`ve been like him hitting Eggman & Eggman dropping the emerald, causing it to break & pieces to fly off.
He couldn't hit Eggman. You know he can't jump that high.
@@CarbonRollerCaco Yea, but since he could reach high enough to hit the Emerald, I thought he could hit Eggman's mobile machine thing
Fun fact about SA2 : Yuji naka mentioned in a interview that shadow's final character design was modeled after super Sonic .
Glad I saw the post on Twitter to be ready for this
34:52 "mostly associated with brooding techno" plays drum and bass xD.
Awesome video btw.
Excellent video my man. Did a fair job covering both sides of why people could love or hate this game.
Live and Learn playing in space with explosions and Super Sonic really make this feel like the most American Sonic game
Welcome back. I missed your content
This game is a straight improvement in polish and gameplay design, but it became less accessible than 1 due to actually making the non sonic styles take more than a second to complete and encouraging raw efficiency much more than exploration. It definitely has some polish issues like mad space and the story has some holes due to the less than stellar localization (about shadow, he's obviously meant to be a clone of super sonic, with the whole emerald shrine and the biolizard being a copy of chaos making it clear gerald saw the angel island mural of sa1, and GUN is trying to blame sonic so they can cover up shadow's existence (of course they killed witnesses, it's the equivalent of the cia).
Meanwhile, about Rouge, I think blowing up the island not being a big deal makes sense due to it being a GUN facility and them always trying to hide the whole project shadow shtick, the eclipse cannon not much so) , but overall I find it one of the best 3d platformers and better than mario 64 and sunshine (god not blue coins). Also this game's various plot points are continued in sonic battle much more competently than shadow the hedgehog. Nobody cares about that game, I would like for someone to bring that story to light despite the mediocre brawler gameplay. Sonic battle does reveal that he kept gun temporarily happy through the discovery of emerl, a weapon that they would actually be able to control themselves.
Normally when I see a long post it is a copy pasta.
This however is thoughtful and worth the read.
I never thought about an Emerald and GUN connection.
So GUN knew Sonic isn't Shadow and arrested him anyway to cover up that Shadow was still alive? Damn, maybe GUN is smarter than I thought. Does it say that anywhere? Oh, and I care about Sonic Battle. A lot, actually. I'm missing just two ultra skills. Took me years of grinding. Does it say that about GUN in Gerald's diary?
It's a headcanon that GUN used Sonic as a cover-up, because there's nothing in the game that hints at this. On the other hand, it *is* played up a lot that the two are simply confused for one another, even by Amy and Eggman. I don't really know much about Sonic Battle's story, but what a later game retroactively makes of the situation doesn't change anything about the fact this plot point is poorly executed in Sonic Adventure 2 itself. Shadow the Hedgehog retroactively fills in gaps and details for SA2, but people don't like the way it does it, so they take it with a grain of salt. You can't just pick and choose.
I'm not sure what imprisoning Sonic is supposed to solve, anyway. Shadow is still out there, so uh? And again, GUN sucks at world protection as shown by their total absence in previous games, so to lock up Sonic is playing a very dangerous game when the world is on the verge of total destruction. Further evidenced by the fact GUN is forgotten about in the second half of this game, and achieve absolutely nothing in stopping Eggman. GUN is anything but smart or competent.
@@RetropolisZone telling people that the one causing trouble is sonic is gonna cover up shadow's existence,imprisoning sonic will make sure you don't have two Sonics running around at the same time. Gun isn't present in the second half because they couldn't manage to access the ark, in sand ocean you can see them trying to get into eggman's base but they can't find its entrance, the gun robots that are on the arks are from when they shut it down, filling it with their security to make sure nobody would get in.
Gun as a nebulous threat in adventure 2 is fine, being just a Cia equivalent that halted a government war weapon's creation after finding it to be unstable (in sa2 because shadow wasn't really evil but they later retconned it to being due to the black arms' involvement)there was thankfully no attempt at redeeming them and the focus was on stopping the threat at hand for sonic and the others. I think they should've at least tried to keep the emeralds considering they listened to gerald's message but that would've caused an 06 moment where the previous games wouldn't have made sense.
The problem came when they tried to flesh them out later on and just contradicted themselves constantly, trying to humanize them with a random character that knew Maria, making them suddenly turn gerald into a saint, and adding a reason why gun would stop gerald the aliens yet fucking it up by making them millenia old so black doom could've taken the emeralds long before they were there. However this isn't maekawa's fault. It's iizuka's sheer incompetence at writing here.
maekawa was great at making character interactions but the finer details got fucked by rushing, however the core is so good that many people ignore that. Like dbz (ironic considering the dbz ripoff super sonic was).
I know why GUN didn't make it to the ARK in the second half of the game. But this just reaffirms that GUN absolutely sucks at doing their job, which makes it so much more stupid that they are also arrogant and selfconfident as to imprison their only hope of the Earth not being destroyed: Sonic.
It's just a really dumb setup. Why did the writers make GUN so implausibly inept and stupid? It makes it hard to take the story seriously, which it clearly wants itself to be taken. If you are going to tackle real world topics and subject matter, ya gotta make it believable and have a semblence of realism.
Anyway, I said on my story conclusion that I get why people admire and enjoy this story. But this pretense by fans that the problems don't exist and that people who critique the story are just too nitpicky or not paying attention feels very disingenuous.
Best review of SA2 I've seen period. Loved it.
Thanks a lot!
I don't know how I missed this video. I still enjoy the story for it's core depth and characters to the point that the little plotholes and GUN in general don't take me out of the experience, at least not too much. And it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who thought the best parts of Sonic Adventure 1 were basically doubled here. It's easy to tell you put a lot of work into this video and I am one of those that still greatly enjoy this game to this day. I was about 17 when I first played it in 2002 and I still get a kick out of it today in 2022.
1:05:50 THIS is the heart of it. SA2 is a game that is not meant to just be finished, it's a game meant to be played and replayed again and again, and every system in it reinforces that fact. Multiple missions, the ranking system, the exploratory elements, even the new hunting mechanics which people so frequently bemoan. I stand by the thought that this radar was an intentional choice, not because of the limitations of hints, but because it created a gameplay style more inherently rewarding than its predecessor, more reflective of the steep but rewarding difficulty curve the series is known for. The choice will be bafflingly frustrating for many, but I think it was a positive one, and its implementation created what is potentially my favorite style of gameplay in my favorite game.
I think it's okay that this game isn't for everyone. I'm glad it's so divisive, that there are people who love it all, people who only love parts of it, and people who hate it all, because that discussion is one of the many things that keeps this game in the spotlight so much twenty years later.
Great video.
I will always make time to watch hours long video essays on Sonic Adventure 2
Some people like games that have gameplay, others like like games that are glorified cutscenes for some bizarre reason.
One thing I would like to add is that of the original translations for the dialog. And how it fixes a lot of scenes and story context.
I might be wrong and misremembering things, but my Japanese-speaking friend once told me that there's no G.U.N in the Japanese script, they're just "the military", so that might explain a few things
What does that matter at all? GUN is just the name of the military in this universe. Also, GUN's logo is all over the game, even in Japanese.
@@RetropolisZone Yeah, they're basically cartoon villain militarized Interpol.
Really good video and got me to subcribe! I had a thought re your notes on GUN and how they were they badly implemented, because your notes (about not being there in the past when Eggman needed to be defeated, etc) is actually something I can see that the Sonic MOVIES are addressing; introducing them earlier in the canon and making them an active part of the plot, with the tease for (SPOILER) in the Sonic Movie 2 end credits so I wonder if the writers of the films felt the same way as you...just an interesting thought :-) Anyways thanks again for the great video!
I know you might think no one cared about those videos, but as someone whose favorite action game of all time is Ninja Gaiden, specifically 2, your videos on the 3 games brought smiles and tears to me. Thanks so much for those retrospectives.
57:46 Very relitable.
So I only picked this game after a mental exhausting set of uniy exams staying up 48 hours in 2 days straight to get them completed (only in the end to be worth 50% each).
Anyways I had a generally average experience maybe even good in all the stages despite Death Camber being longer for me I didn't mind purely for the chilled out beat and eventually figured it out by screwing around in the map.
But Mad Space OMG. So I did the entire Hero story and onto the dark and this level is way bigger than it needed to be I didn't use UA-cam only googling the mind-boggling 15 second speedrun of the level and over 2 gaming sessions it took me 70 minuites for one level!
I understand it's meant to be the last level in the dark side campaign but c'mon the most I spent was about 10-15 mins in Death Camber so 30 maybe 40 I could excuse if the game explained itself a bit more but NOPE 70.
I did press through and found to have enjoyed myself the more I visit it, but I personally prefer the sense of freedom (game-play) you had in SA1 with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Gamma
I first played this game well over twenty years ago now on dreamcast and it staggers me how it is still being talked about and picked apart so passionately.
It must be addressed that many (not all) issues in the story that are pointed out here are a result of the poor localization, not the original japanese script. Shadow never says "you're THAT government spy", he discovers at that moment that she is A spy working for the president.
Shadow also implies in one of the recap moments (in the Japanese script) that it's possible that GUN is intentionally framing Sonic (to maintain the secrecy of project shadow). The timeline of the events is also evidence to that loint. That being said, that is indeed a plot point that was thought with the original design in mind, and could've been better established in explicit ways.
With that said, considering the accurate translation, the story doesn't "fall apart" when you break down the original japanese version. There are points which are contrived and a few holes, but not more than any average movie/game story.
I believe it. Other people have been pointing out the same. Unfortunately, I don't speak Japanese, and I don't factor in outside sources when reviewing games. If the localization sucks, that's still the responsibility of the producers behind the game.
But it is interesting to know.
@@RetropolisZone I agree, that is an objective issue with the game. Poor localization that should simply not be present in the final version. The worst, however, is that the subtitles still correspond to the English dialogue even when you chose the Japanese dub. That is just nonsensical. And it was an issue that persisted in heroes and shadow 2005.
That being said, then, the issue is different. It's not that the story was bad, it's that the story was poorly translated in the dub and the game presents no way to access an accurate translation in English.
I may check out the cutscenes with a retranslation at some point out of curiosity. Is there one or multiple, and if the latter, which is the most accurate that you know of?
@@RetropolisZone There is a famous "retranslated mod" for the steam version of the game that replaces the subtitles with the accurate translation. And there is a UA-cam channel named blackblur7 that has all the SA2 cutscenes with the same accurate translation in the subtitles, using the Japanese dub.
Apart from the dumb Rouge line, another translation that imo is hilarious is when Shadow says "is that what chaos control is?". In the original, he says "Chaos control?", clearly shocked that the lizard performed it, not wondering what it is. The worst part is that he actually uses the English words "chaos control" (with japanese pronunciation). Like, come on, how do you screw up that one.
@@RetropolisZone ua-cam.com/play/PLhnIPa8XAn7x6g8UvkO0UaiTHtK-VBUbd.html
Here is a playlist with the accurate translations of the main Sonic games and also the spin-offs (they're not all there, because there's no translation of Free Riders and Forces). If I wrote something wrong, sorry, my English is not very good.
I've played this game off and on for my entire life pretty much. The Chao Garden and modding scene for it is that continues to hold my interest. And that absolute God-Tier OST
Amazing video. I like as my favorite fully 3d sonic game. I love it's multiplayer mode. This game is amazing imo even with it's issues.
I think what really hurts the potential of what nonlinearity there is, and hurts people's ability to even notice or care for it, is that camera. It's the most uncooperative, restrictive, railroaded camera I've seen in any noteworthy 3D platformer. It _seriously_ doesn't help. Just walking a few meters back can often be awkward as heck, let alone taking a clever detour or shortcut off the beaten track.
Yeah, that's true. The camera can be annoying for stuff like that.
Okay- I think saying it’s the worst is a bit of an exaggeration. For as much as I prefer Adventure 1’s gameplay, the camera is easily worse there. However, the fact that you have no true control of the camera in mech stages is stupid.
@@Mojo1356 No one used the word "worst" though.
@@AniGaAG must have responded to the wrong thread. Excuse me
Great video. Came here from KingK recommendation, not disappointed. Subbed. Thanks!
Glad you weren't disappointed, and hope you enjoy what's to come. 👍
Super Thanks for this well balanced review to my 2nd favorite game ever made.
Probably because the level design for most stages is worse than sonic adventure 1, and that instead of Sonic style levels taking up 50% (Sonic and tails levels) of the playtime, they make up closer to 35-40%. The controls were also slightly more janky compared to 1.
26:35 I always took at Gerald’s vengeful spirit was haunting the ARK
I thought someone who survived the incident or some nihilistic follower of Gerald in G.U.N. programmed the ARK to do that
I think the public mistaking Shadow for Sonic can make sense when you connect SA1 to 2. When Perfect Chaos is about to run ranpet, people could have witnessed Sonic turning super and they can then know sonic can change his appearance, though without knowing the how or why he can. For all they know, Shadow could've just been another appearance Sonic could take. Now it may not make sense when Amy mistakes them, but for people looking on the outside, it can somewhat add up.
Then why did his belly become pure black when it didn’t change as Super Sonic then? If that’s what they were going for, it was conveyed very poorly.
It also makes sense when you remember that shadow’s first appearance to the public is during night time. And I mean, how many anthropomorphic hedgehogs are people aware of that are just running around San Francisco? Lol
As for Sky Rail music... well if you look at the old E3 2000 trailer, you can actually see that it was probably meant to be a Sonic stage but not Shadow since the footage has sonic playing on it, it is "proof" of that theory that Adventure 2 was meant to only have 3 playable characters (Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman). And that's probably why Sky Rail sounds (and heck, level design kinda feels structured) like a Sonic Stage.
"Proof" of "that theory" when the trailer also specifically shows off pairs of antonyms like "Yin/Yang", "Justice/Evil" etc. AND has a half-black-half-white "2" mark. Uh-huh.
I'm glad you mentioned how people who have mastered the game and are able to grab A ranks are usually more equipped to deal with the game's jank, but I think you also missed a good reason to why so many people dislike SA2, and that's the fact that the learning process of getting A ranks can be completely agonizing.
Sonic Adventure 2 fails to communicate the importance of each factor in getting the A ranks, a problem that's aggravated by the fact the enemies killed, tricks performed and other things I might not be aware of are all put into the same category of Score, so newcomers will have to figure out how to get good ranks through trial and error.
I remember trying to get an A rank in City Escape and dreading every single attempt, because I had no idea of how many rings I had to collect, how many tricks I had to do, how many enemies I had to kill, and I didn't even know if I was going fast enough. You mentioned you cannot afford to die if you want an A rank, but can you afford to even get hit at all? I genuinely don't know.
The Treasure Hunting stages also suffer a bit from this. The problems you mentioned about the hints system, and other things, not being properly explained, also affect the learning process of getting A ranks. The best I could personally do is get a B rank in the first Knuckles stage.
I have to admit I didn't put that much effort into getting A ranks, and I might give it another shot some other day, but for now I just find getting A ranks to be too agonizing for me to even try.
Having played this game as a kid and learning how to avoid its problems might explain why so many people enjoy A ranking SA2 levels. I remember seeing ExoParadigmGamer's review of Sonic Unleashed, and in that review he said he thinks the ranking system in SA2 is great, and also said that the ranking system in Sonic Unleashed is "by far the worst in the series", and I found that to be just baffling. He had good points against the ranking system, but some of his other issues with the ranking system were either kind of stretched or stuff that were present in an even worse fashion in Sonic Adventure 2... and sometimes both.
Sonic Adventure 2 is a game that is very weird to me. I can think of very few games that I hate so much yet are so beloved. I still plan to someday find someone that loves SA2 and play the game with them, in an attempt to try to understand its appeal better.
A ranking in SA2 is basically this, treasure hunting ranking is based on speed and the Speed and Mech stages are based on points and speed but mostly points from my experience. You get points by destroying robots and doing tricks, basically being flashy for the speed stages. And for the mech stages try to combo enemies by holding the B button since it can lock on to multiple enemies, and that’s basically it. Well atleast for the main missions.
@@wgbee1242 you also get more points in hunting stages without using hints. While I think the smaller stages like Wild Canyon are fine, you pretty much have to use hints in larger stages like Mad Space if you don’t want to spend hours in that stage, but that just leads into my second problem. Using hints to get A ranks just feels so boring. Like, I got an A rank by walking to this specific place the monitor told me to go to that is not that hard to get to.., yay? Like, there’s no middle ground for the larger stages. It’s either too easy with the hints if you actually get hints that mean anything or too hard because you can’t possibly check every corner of the stage fast enough for that A rank. Just trying to get though something like Aquatic Mine or Mad space on the first time can take even longer than a werehog stage.
For rings, all that matters is that you got them at some point. Unlike games like Unleahsed, you are not given a higher score for having more rings at the end of the stage. However, you don’t wanna get hit too much though since that’s time bonus points you’re losing.
Either way, this is probably one of the worst Sonic games to 100% complete.
I definitely disagree with the "Shadow and Sonic are totally different lol" argument, we do know what Shadow is because we know that they are different characters, but in the actual story no one knows who is Shadow, GUN was guarding a TOP SECRET military weapon sealed for over 50 years so most soldiers and media obviously didn't know any detail about what could be this weapon.
The thing is, you have a fast moving hedgehog doing bad stuff, although they look different in their appearance, their style are still the same, literally pick ANY person that barely knows about Sonic the Hedgehog and show Shadow to them, most people say something like "He's an evil Sonic" or "Oh Sonic became evil!" heck my mother even managed to mistake NiGHTS (yeah that purple guy from the Saturn game) with Sonic, Shadow and Sonic are practically identical in comparison, because they DO look alike whether or not they have different colors or not. Imagine you know a friend's appearance, but then in another day you see that same friend wearing a completely different colored shirt and hairstyle, that doesn't mean you will suddenly tell it's a completely different person.
That's exactly what happens in SA2, what people are seeing is NOT "Shadow the Hedgehog", it's "Evil Sonic", the reason why Amy do that mistake it's because she literally thought he WAS Sonic because that is what was being told and shown, Sonic became evil so his basic appearance changed, but later Amy notices that he is really not Sonic at all, and it has nothing to do with colorblind jokes because she never mistakes Shadow again (in fact, no other character or even GUN genuinely mistakes Shadow with Sonic again, because now they are not seeing "Evil Sonic", but "Shadow the Hedgehog".)
There is the thing about the Shadow redesign, but I really doubt the writer wouldn't notice even if it ended up completely different from Sonic, I can tell those old designs were REALLY old because when the game was first revealed in E3 2000 it was already shown Shadow with it's final design, the game wasn't even halfway through development by that point so this is not some kind of "last minute change and they didn't have time to change the script."
GUN's inclusion was pretty much made probably so there is another faction to serve as enemies in Eggman levels since he was always designed to be playable in this game, so generally GUN is portrayed as an extreme violent military organization that do everything it takes to achieve "piece" by capturing and killing any possible threat. That's pretty much it.
There was an interview with Shiro Maekawa I think, where he says that they couldn't include one or two scenes because of tight schedule and he says that if god could give him those scenes in exchange for his arms he would 100% want that. I imagine that those scenes were supposed to be another one with the President right before the Finalhazard and the other might be more backstory showing visually what happened in the ARK, or it could be also a longer version of Amy speech to Shadow, probably much similar to how it is in Sonic X anime, were the scene is much longer with gradual steps showing Shadow struggling to remember and not like in 10 seconds lol
At this point it's really well know that the Japanese dub is the definitive way the game was supposed to be played, miles better dubbing direction (just compare that same like from Tails), and less awkward and cut lines. Although this doesn't change the English dub, I thought kinda weird you didn't even touched on the Japanese part and seemed to act as if those lipsynching and dubbing problems are main problems of the game.
I understand most of your points about Shooting, the only one I disagree is about some environmental destruiction being padding, when imo most of them works fine because they can be destroyed before you reach them, when I replay Iron Gate or Hidden Base I don't really feel any major speed loss because most doors can be destroyed before you reach them, no wonder Hidden Base is my favorite Shooting level, there is no on-rail movement and most obstacles can be destroyed quickly and before you hit them, so it all comes on how skilled the player is in destroying them so it maintains the flow of the stage.
The first person view was only added in SADX (which was ported AFTER SA2B on gamecube), this didn't exist in DC versions so they didn't actually removed that, it just wasn't a thing.
I LOVED how you explained Hunting levels, you definitely are the one who better explained everything I think about it, most people just seem to blame on the radar for everything but you really showed the actual biggest problem which is the lack of explanation and direction the game gives, you could say Action Race and Shooting also doesn't explain things but there it's a linear path so there is not much to miss, if you need to use Somersault, you'll have to use, if you need to use the Volkan Cannon, you'll just use, but in Treasure Hunting if you want to do a Spiral Upper... like... wtf is an Spiral Upper? (At least rarely there will be a treasure that requires that ability) It's free form nature with little to no clear explanation of its appeal is the biggest problem, until a player can finally get a grisp and understand of the system... it probably won't actually because it will be throwing opinions online that they suck ass already and don't even bother playing the game again.
As much as I love Treasure Hunting, I hate how I have to basically explain EVERYTHING when I'm watching someone playing it, I have to tell them to use hint monitors, I have to explain that they can grab three hints and not all of them are vague, I have to explain that Death Chamber calls "secret rooms" because the radar purposely doesn't reach from the other side of the wall, I have to explain about the rank system and the relation with the radar and even explain the APPEAL to have fun at all because the game just doesn't make it clear. Action Race are so easy to understand its appeal because it's a straight path where you run fast while defeating obstacles to continuously running fast, the game doesn't need to explain that in words... in theory Treasure Hunting is the same, but how is the game gonna make the player understand without saying words or pointing things out in a linear path? They had to put more tutorial stuff and in-depth explanations for this playstyle to click the same way Action Race does.
Generally SA2 is a game that the more you play and get invested into it's rankings, the better it gets, but the process to get there is not intuitive and most players will play only the campaign, not really like it so.... why bother?
Like you said, this game overhaul appeal is designed for people replaying it, but not for first-time. Back then I guess it was fine because most people didn't use to have that many games easily acessible so they thought "who the hell is not gonna replay the games they bought?", but nowadays the industry is much more saturated with content, if you don't like a game... just play another one.
Sonic being mistaken for Shadow: all I have to say, regardless of how much they look or do not look alike, GUN has held onto Shadow for 50 years. If the higher-ups fail to communicate to their soldiers what to look for after his outbreak and that Shadow is NOT Sonic, that's a problem onto its own.
The reason I didn't mention the Japanese script is because I simply didn't know the difference in quality is as dramatic as people are claiming. I assumed a few lines were awkward in English or whatever, and that's about it. The bad lip sync and pacing of the lines, meanwhile, is obvious and distracting to anyone viewing.
The footage I used of the first-person view in Sonic Adventure literally comes from the Dreamcast. It was in that version already.
@@RetropolisZone wtf the DC version really had that? I really didn't know, I thought it was included in SADX since there was an option to put Free Camera so I thought it could be related, sorry for that.
No worries about that!
That's also why modern games are more braindead overall. One of the producers of pokémon said something controversial but true.
Kids now have Mobile and f2p games for their basic dopamine rushes, quick braindead entertainment. So why would they keep playing console games if they get stuck at any point or have too much trouble anywhere and get angry at it? They'll just give up and go back to clash royale and the stupid gacha games.
So making games as visually impressive yet automated and simple as possible is the priority in many modern games, or becoming large open worlds with many possibilities
What? Shadow has different quills, shoes, accessories, ears that are slightly more curved, and even chest hair. That’s not similar at all. Besides, how would people know he is super fast without even seeing him? The media sure didn’t show that.
As for hunting stages, yes you can use hints, but A) too many hints are so vague and not helpful at all even when the player has the level design memorized, B) you’re claim on using 3 hints being a thing is false for A ranks. You lose way too much style bonus using more than 1 hint monitor per shard. And C) doing it that way is so boring. I did that for Mad Space simply because I couldn’t be bothered to play it the legitimate way, and even when I got good hints, it was so boring. Not satisfying at all. This is why smaller stages like Wild Canyon are far better- you can get that satisfying feeling without hint monitors.
I’ve beaten this game multiple times and did not know about the security hall safe switches until right now lol
I always sort of took it as Eggman was never actually going to fire the cannon at Earth but just collecting the emeralds just to the threaten government that he has the means to do so. And that Shadow was planning to use the cannon himself to fulfill his revenge but then the biolizard happened.
The things i liked the most in this game are the soundtrack and the story which in my opinion are great, nice analysis 👍
The fact that your subscriber count is not in the hundreds of thousands from your hard work and attention to detail towards video games reviews that are seen on your videos is a shame and a crime to all hard-working UA-camrs out there that sacrifice their own valuable time and energy to create incredible videos like yours.
I hope one day you will receive a huge following like most UA-camrs out there, but until that happens, take this thank you from me and my anticipation for your next video.
Thank you :)
25:46 - I thought the Biolizard had the emeralds as it got locked into the machine and he has access to that? Or was using the Master Emerald near by. I don't know, just guessing lol.
39:53 - That's a joke, right? I found the controls for SA2 worse for the DC over SA1. They felt more slippery and their turning sensitivity ramped up lol. I think it felt better on Battle (or I had better control with the GC/Xbox controller over the Dreamcast).
41:43 - I did not know this. That's awesome!
56:02 - You're right; I never knew about the three hint thing. The hints are trash. Bring back Tikal leading the way!
1:12:51 - How do you do that? I've never been able to hit him more than once when he legs it; no matter how fast I run!
1:14:38 - o_O
Great in-depth video as always and you brought a lot of interesting points to the table. I still prefer SA1 over SA2, nothing will make me change my mind on that! Also, I miss the "Quickies don't cut it" intro =P
Yeah, the control sensitivity is whack on Dreamcast. It's hard to keep running in a straight line. But honestly, I couldn't be fucked to point it out, and it's fixed in Battle.
Glad you enjoyed the video, dad
to add onto the Biolizard guess, it could've recieved enough of the emeralds energy to pull it off before Knuckles stopped it, just sayin'
I didn’t know that about the Dreamcast controls. However, the HD ports have their own problems with very jank collision detection, a problem that persists for all 6 characters.
Enjoyed the video! There was a lot said but I'll just comment on one part. And that's about Egg man's characterization. I agree with the sentiment. He's not even my favorite character in the slightest but it's stuff like that that adds to the whole cast. This was good! Have a nice day everyone.
"Filler nontent"
What a great phrase
I'm going to enlist that in my vocabulary
I randomly started watching these videos last Friday. Now we’re getting a open world sonic
Man, this now has to be one of my favorite reviews over SA2 out on UA-cam.
When I first played SA2 I had the GameCube port because I never had a Dreamcast growing up. Knowing that the port isn't as good as the original release until way later after the PC release of Battle was release and all the mods came out. Now some of the issues that people have with SA2 have mostly been taken care of thankfully.
Back when I played the game, I didn't mind the treasure hunting parts with Knuckles and Rouge. I'm saying they are perfect or the issues people have are invalid but I never mind the issues. I would say that was my naive child mind just accepting the problems and making me want to try harder. I would say my least favorite part of the game was the mech section, it made me hate restarting the Dark Side story on new playthroughs because I didn't want to stop with Eggman.
The ranking system is what drove me to replay the game so many times for so many years and perfecting it with the missions to get A rank on every stage. I'm pretty sure younger me could play through any mission on City Escape in my sleep with the amount of hours I poured into perfecting those runs.
Bosses are just okay to me now but as a kid I didn't have much of a problem outside of Tails v Eggman 2. I HATED that fight, always losing, always getting hit by that damn beam attack. I'm glad to hear people have issues with the Biolizard fight. When I was a kid, I didn't have problems with the fight outside the 2 death pits. As an adult, I can barely finish the fight without retrying at least 5 times. Must have been something my hyper focused child brain didn't have a problem with.
Actually the Gamecube version is better. Ignore those losers who overrate the DC version. Both versions have their pros and cons, and with the mods for the PC version you can have the best of both worlds. But between the Gamecube and the Dreamcast, the Gamecube one is better. For one, the gamecube version introduced the epic intro that shows the playable characters and Sonic and Shadow crossing paths in the air. The original dreamcast intro was just a shot of the night sky with the title coming in.
The gamecube also added the exclamation mark bubble when you get near a master emerald piece. Also remember that cutscene between Rouge and Shadow before final chase? Well you're probably most familiar with the GC version where Rouge's theme "fly in the freedom" plays at the start of the cutscene, then goes silent for a moment when Rouge shows Shadow the newspaper, then Shadow's theme "throw it all away" kicks in. Well, in the original DC version "fly in the freedom" plays throughout the entire cutscene which does not fit for the latter part of the cutscene.
Also it may be just me but the game controls better in the GC version than the DC version.
This vid really out here sucker-punching us after 66 minutes with the answer to its title. I was so engrossed by all the deep-dive analysis beforehand I had honestly forgotten the point, then bam. All clicked into place.
Like SA2 itself, you get more out of this video the longer you spend with it. Brilliant work!
It was actually bothering me a little that it took me this long to get to answering the title of the video, but it had to be setup the way I did it.
Glad it ended up working!
Feeding the algorithm overlords! This was a pleasant surprise to wake up to, you're awesome!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video. :)
Just wanted to point out that the audio mixes are typically attributed to the hardware of the console the game was originally released on (not that this is an excuse for poor implementation afterwards). Supposedly there was a built-in audio damper (or something) to the genesis. And it wasn't properly managed in later releases. Again, this isn't an excuse necessarily, but just hopefully serves as an explanation for one of the complaints that is frequent for those that never played the dreamcast version.
your comments around 54:30 about how the camera cant be moved up or down makes it difficult for newcomers makes me realise.
damn we were good at games as kids- not being able to move the camera perfectly is such a normal expectation after playing modern games that when someone points out it isnt doable in this game i just think "huh, how did i never notice that"
i think newcomers to games just, don't particularly mind it, and at the time i dont t hink it was an expectation.
and when you talk about the jank of death chambers claustrophobic corridors and how open mad space is, i dont even recall that as a kid. thats so wild.
like, how did i, as a 5 year old, just not think it was bad game design. was it the music? the atmosphere? just the running around and exploration feeling.
like i played sonic 1, 2, 3, and knuckles, 3d blast, kart, etc, and for most of those games i couldnt get past the 2nd or 3rd level when i was 4 years old. but 5 year old me was able to complete SA2?
when people bring up the radar not being as good as SA1, honestly the radar felt more jarring to me in SA1. i played 2 first, so having a fully open radar actually felt strange.
>Sees this at the END of my break
You really know how to make us wait for the good stuff, huh, RZ. Gonna crave this one when I get off work today. 😋
How long till you get out of work?
@@RetropolisZone Not long now from getting off and am watching it as I type, my good man. Loving it so far (34 mins in).
Dang, those clips through the floor I've never seen before on the GCN version. Are you playing the PC rerelease version?
I'm one of the people that hate SA2. It's a great video, I think. You dissected the game thoroughly, but didn't add fuel to the fire, I think. (Some people take criticism of SA2 very personally.) I never knew the hint system for treasure hunting worked like that. And while I don't care for the ranking system, I guess it improves the game more than I realised. It doesn't fix the mech controls, though.
So yeah, it's a shame SA2 turned out like this. I agree with 58:52. Being forced to do the treasure hunting to play the speed stages is just awful. It may be the case that it's only enjoyable if you already played it for a while and after painfully learning what to do or to expect. As a kid, it's probably less frustrating. But I might hate SA2 a little less after watching your video. That said, you might be on the hitlist of a few Sonic fans because you destroyed SA2 in their eyes, so maybe you should fake your death and change your identity.
The response has been very tame so far, haha. Looks like I'm fairly in the clear, unless this video were to blow up and reach the really obnoxious fans.
Nah this review was pretty good and is neutral for the most part, I don’t think Sonic fans would put him on a hitlist for that (unless you say you like Sonic Forces better, now that might do that).
You Gotta Make A Sonic Unleashed Video I Loved That Game When I Was a Kid And I Plan On Re-Playing It On Some Time in the Future
Honestly SA2 became one of my favorite Sonic games when I first played it in 2019, it's not my most favorite, my most favorite is actually Sonic 3 and knuckles.
Same but 2018 for me
Edit: 3&K is my second favorite
I was fortunate to have played both games in the year of their releases and they're 2 of my 3 favorite Sonic games along with Generations
Thanks qt
Babe.
Ur vids are cozy as fuck no cringe jokes no shallow analysis just good shit. I hear ur working on a oot review?
Thank you! I appreciate that. And yep, Ocarina of Time is the next video. 👍
look retro....we need you....the worlds needs you...also you said it..."ADVEBTURE!" love it
As a kid, I hated SA2. I loved the speed stages and Chao Garden, the mech stages were fine, but I dreaded having to play the treasure stages.
Playing it again months ago in 2022, I like the game more now, and can see why people consider it the best Sonic game, but I can also see why people dislike this game. The speed stages are still great, the mech shooting levels are fun and the treasure hunting levels, still suck, but I did slightly enjoy them more this time around. The narrative still holds up to me, despite some plot holes and issues, and the introduction of characters like Shadow and Rouge only expands the world of Sonic.
I am really enjoying this retrospective on the Sonic series!