Kyle: "That won't make the video" Editors: "Yes It Will." If i hadn't forgotten my coffee, I would have spit it out at that moment because it caught me so off guard but was fucking hilarious. Luckily the dark bitter thing in my life this morning was that existenial dread Garrett provided reminding me I am older than the people I saw as "adults" in movies and shows I watched growing up. Thank you Garrett for being my coffee this morning. Great video as usual. I actually look forward to hearing more and watching you guys experience the WoW stuff. I have no desire myself, but damn if your WoW streams are not supremely chill second monitor or work monitor content that just ups the good vibes. Honestly, it's like the 14 leveling streams, same general, just hanging out energy that feels cozy af.
That existential dread bit was a too real. I've started to realize I'm older than a good chunk of content creators I watch, and every time I notice that I can't help but wonder when the heck that happened.
So, I'm a FFXIV player 110%. I played a bit of Vanilla WoW and bounced off at least in part for social reasons (my friends all stopped playing pretty early and, as every other shy person knows, talking to people you don't know is illegal). I started following you guys relatively early on, I think the first 'new' video I saw from you was 'that moment' in Heavensward. Honestly, your shared excitement for WoW Season of Discovery has been a greater selling point for World of Warcraft than anything the game or my friends have ever said or done. Honestly, if I end up giving WoW Classic a try, it will be because of the two of you.
I love that we’re on the age of why not both? And able to say yes to both! Our younger selves couldn’t afford multiple subs, so we went deep into one game only mentality, but we absolutely can have more than one, or even play in “seasons” and swap our subs around if we must, and it’s an awesome era for gaming, at least for me it is!
I was in an accident a couple weeks ago. A young lady rear-ended an old guy, and pushed his car into me. The fact that she was born in 2005 gave me more of an existential crisis than the accident itself.
I'm totally fine. I stopped, the guy behind me stopped, she did not. She wedged her car *under* the guy in the minivan so badly his back wheels were off the ground. Thankfully, no injuries. My bumper got scratched up, but that's it. The other two cars were probably totaled. Pro Tip: if you are so short that you can barely see over the steering wheel and dashboard, do not admit that to the officer responding to the accident you just caused.
I was a WoW virgin when I dipped my toe into Classic in 2019. I was a resto druid, so I found levelling solo to be pretty much impossible in places. I stuck with it, though, and cleared Onyxia and MC, and got all my BiS gear by Christmas. I really enjoyed it and left with great memories. But I didn't want to continue, and I wouldn't want to do it again. Anyway, I doubt I'd reach lvl 10 in Hardcore!
Ayo, i did the same thing with holy pally- Ended up going the dungeon route to level. It was a fun time and i really enjoyed myself...but, i'm with you I wouldnt do it again XD.
Hearing you talk about classic WoW reminds me why I love and frequently revisit FFXI, especially something like HorizonXI which is like a refreshed version of its hey-day release.
Following thru with my previous promise: For ARR extremes, Ifrit is a fun fight, especially for healers. Do a cohealer stream with Garrett on scholar and Kyle on astro!
so interesting hearing you guys talk about old and retail wow as an outsider! for as long as i’ve been aware of gaming, wow was always such a monolith, but as i learn more it’s astounding these are the same games. i’m definitely interested in seeing if they stick with their promises of not tossing systems away more than their story promises.
I think there's something that you touched on here that's important. Early MMOs like WoW and EQ and Asheron's Call were very much more about the stories they allowed you to create for yourself than they were the story the game was telling you. FFXIV (and, apparently, upcoming WoW retail) are focused less on organic user-created stories and more on The Story Of The Game. Don't get me wrong, XIV's story is unparalleled in its quality and impact, but there's not as much room in it for those little personal "hey, here's what happened when I encountered this weird thing and someone came by and helped with it" tales that old MMOs were full of. One isn't better than the other, but part of that JANK you talk about is what allows those little personal stories to happen.
As someone who falls on the other side of the retail-classic divide, it's interesting to hear people talk about why they prefer classic. I think the only thing I strongly disagreed with is the statement that retail doesn't have as many places for incremental self improvement. The specific thing I like about retail is that when you're doing difficult content, it is like 95% incremental self improvement by volume, building an ever-growing stack of small improvements until you win. I was part of a group that decided to do SoD from my retail guild and we have been pretty disappointed so far. Part of this is due to an expectations mismatch - I/we think of leveling as a chore to be completed before we get to have fun, and boy is it a chore in SoD. And then we get to the raid and clear it in one night. I think it's pretty unlikely we'll continue, but I'm glad that this exists for people that prefer it - that just isn't us.
Garrett talks about how we're all old - I laughed. Garrett talks about how they're older than the parents in Home Alone, then remembering that I'm older than them - OH NO
I only play FFXIV right now but I've played WoW and I don't hate it. I've really enjoyed your SoD and Hardcore streams. I can't wait to see Deadmines Hardcore.
I have the silliest reason for preferring classic Wow, as my version of endgame was exploring funky out of bounds level geometry and all of that was fixed in Cataclysm.
Season of Discovery is a lot of fun, but what turns me off is the fact it is a temporary mode. the other issue i have with Classic is the fact it has been out for a while so how is the experience for someone who joins in 2023?
I personally get the feeling that SoD will last until the player base leaves it. Seeing as they’ve yet to say “when” it will end. Just that it is seasonal. Unlike with season of mastery, where the end being Naxx was predetermined. I personally hope that there will be more added to discover outside of the runes. Like new dungeons or adding story/text to the areas that have been mysteries since vanilla itself. (Uldum but not cata version) the shade of eranikus, timbermaw hold!
I've been having a lot of fun in Season of Discovery so far. I'm not sure how long I'll stick with it because it's a very different game than modern WoW and FFXIV, but it feels a lot like WoW did when I first started playing. Earthy, clunky, and adventurous. It scratches an itch that modern WoW and even FFXIV don't. That being said, FFXIV is by far my "home". There are a LOT of itches that IT scratches. But now and again, especially during content lulls, I could see myself leveling a toon in Season of Discovery. IF Blizzard doesn't do Blizzard things and fuck it up. So to even call it cautious optimism might be generous.
The premise of this video reminds wanting to take your old knowledge of a game you loved reminds me of randomizers that's been popular for the past number of years. Link to the Past randomizer was the big breakout for the randomizer craze, but there's randomizer for old JRPG, super Metroid, even new game evoking old games like axiom verge and time spinners. You can take your knowledge of the base game but use it to overcome new challenges like beating a Zelda dungeon without some tools you had in the vanilla playthrough because the hammer lets you kill stuff if you don't have your sword. Or beating a final fantasy 4 boss with a party you were never supposed to have. Season of discovery sounds like that applied to wow and I think there's a lot of room to explore that idea
@@Amovetv You can generate a randomized rom for a few pokemon games online and then download that rom file. Randomizing things like starter pokemons, which pokemons appear in the game (gen1 only, or adding later gens), randomizing Trainer battles, wild pokemon, pokemon movesets and even the OST (again adding random songs from later games if you want).
And im with you Garrett. I was born in 1979, got Link to the Past the day it came out in spring of 7th grade, played a ton of Ocarina and Majoras. Played the first two on NES a ton in elementary school, got the Zelda collectors edition Gamecube in Dec 2003 that had the disc with the two NES and the two 64 games And i didnt like Breath much at all. Havent tried the new Switch zelda yet
I'm in same boat, as soon as BoTW had the durability for weapons and the stupid time sink of having to juggle weapons, etc. It completely turned me off and I absolutely refuse to bother with the new Zelda games. I probably replayed Link to the Past 30-50 times, just loved every bit of it and it had tons of enjoyment for me.
I enjoyed BotW, but I'll never play through it again. It's way too long of a commitment for me. TotK looks fun, but the total disregard for the lore of the series annoyed me enough to prioritize other games I wanted. It's also not a game I'd replay, and I find myself liking replayability in my games more and more as I grow older.
my experience in vanilla must have been different from most people's, because by and large I didn't like it very much, and thus I don't have any nostalgia for it. I really enjoyed a lot of the quality of life things that came over the years and the idea of playing without them sounds awful to me- I've never even considered playing Classic. For me it was the story being unbearably bad in retail that caused me to leave for greener pastures. And since they're not changing up the writing team, their promises of an improved story are falling on deaf ears for me and I don't have any intention of wasting my energy setting myself up for disappointment.
Being an older gamer these days, it always felt like some people don't realize how easily MMOs could "go wrong" for an individual, often for reasons outside their control. Like from the FFXI side of the spectrum, if your favorite job was among the weaker ones, you were having a more difficult time leveling and getting gear because strangers didn't really want to be bogged down by the non-meta tactics of a specific event or encounter. If you weren't someone who could play during peak times, then your social options also diminish. Guild hopping until possibly finding the one for you can also be a slow process, where each step of learning about your peers may eventually teach you you're incompatible. I'm sure women out there would also have their own horror stories about participating in what may have been traditionally considered a hobby for guys. Just playing with an RL friend or two can also yield a significant edge that anyone going in solo wouldn't have, further if they're more the shy sort. When it all fits, great. Personally, I don't think I ever got lucky and I'm not ashamed to admit I occasionally get jealous of what our boys have going on here. Later life knowledge also revealing I've probably been neurodivergent all along would also explain a lot of my experiences and preferences when it comes to social interactions, personal limits, being forced to party even for absolutely mundane grinds, and what could often feel like tolerated impropriety that I didn't want any part of with some gamer behaviors. And historically whenever I've tried to retell my story in other venues, there's inevitably someone that has to demand it's fiction because it doesn't match with their own experience and preferences. A lot of times it just feels gatekeep-y even if it turned out I knew way more about the given game (yay hyperfixations as an example of ND realization) or actually had more accomplishments under my belt to justify certain takes. Otherwise, yeah, if a game burns ya, there's frankly no obligation to give it a second chance. I tried old WoW circa-2007, myself. Just didn't click. I could list dislikes, but I know for some they'd be likes. There's been a certain degree of frustration with the WoW clone fad that followed over the years, but inevitably that's just the game industry chasing money with as little effort as possible when it comes to new ideas and experimentation. I've got my own nostalgia armor and have no qualms ripping into FFXI as it more or less was my MMO of choice from 2004 to 2013. Some would call me a hater for even trying, but I've always subscribed to that idea that any gamer that hardcore locks themselves into one game is doing themselves a disservice, especially when you learn how other games handle specific issues and derive a logical evolution of what should and shouldn't happen in the future. If WoW Classic happened much like how FFXI Classic "enthusiasts" thought, I imagine this video never would've happened and the experiment would've died a few months after. Credit where it's due, Blizz didn't 1:1 the old days and put some experience to use. Suggest the same to the XI (private server) crowd, let alone why SE would never do it, and they'd practically assert you're committing war crimes. But again, that likely be traced back to their experiences differing and that "success" fueling the nostalgia monster.
My current thoughts on both retail and all versions of classic, is that its not for me anymore, I've moved on, i still talk to guildies on discord, but the well has been tainted irreparably and I've just found a new well instead. Good for those that enjoy the game though
7:50 information I never know but now cursed with XD As for nostalgia factor, I find reminescence on old time gives me both joy and pain, which make it bittersweet at best. looking on WoW, both Classic and Retail, through the lens of nostalgia make me feel like it's an estranged friend who was once very close, but probably can never be reconciled with ever again.
I do like leveling, because it's a journey. Meeting new people, helping them, discovering new creatures, and discovering the joys and terrors of the world... Raiding just feels like executing on a plan... perhaps even successfully. 😅
To be fair classic has withstood the test of time because of the feeling it gives in nostalgia but also its ability to provide a challenge and a reward for accomplishing goals and for a wow fan to get a chance to re-experience that is like a gift from the heavens above I played FFXI and its was brutally cruel with its reduction of exp upon death its hard fights and limits on skills and abilities but man did I love grabbing a new job and beating up rabbits outside in ronfure then traversing to la thiene(?) plateau and when I got close to level 12 I could start doing parties in valkrum dunes where we'd just beat the crap out of anything we could as the healers tried to keep the tank alive and when someone died and we shouted for a raise or someone ported home to come back and revive the party after a wipe we'd spend the down time talking to each other about strats skills games movies it felt like a bonfire scene in baldurs gate except we were all corpses in the sand waiting for help I wish I could play that again in a moment where everyone would be happily leveling with each other and just enjoying themselves But that is a moment in time and we don't have the same opportunities and game devs know that too so rather than have people say "I don't have the time" they make changes to the game so people have enough time and can then leave and come back and not feel abandoned or left behind Wow needs to find that groove where either you make it so its more player friendly or make it so the ceiling isn't as far from the ground so people can still feel like their accomplishments were worth the effort
I'm a late Gen Xer.... I've been at my mid-life crisis for half a decade already. It's why I keep going back to games like Fallout 3 and am working on a retro game set up complete with an old CRT set up. NES, Genesis, SNES, 386/486 PC games. But still no interest in WoW currently. If I didn't have to pay another sub, I'd have more motivation to play.
I just want a game that feels like WoW with its combat, and the content of FF14. It's all I was thinking while doing some Bozja grinding to work on my RDM weapon.
A part of me really wants to try out Season of Discovery, but im very afraid ill get sucked in. Heres some context, I started WoW during Wotlk and played for a couple of years and then left because "MMO's were taking up too much of my life". During Covid I started playing FF14, and i played it a lot, I ran savage for a few years as a black mage. Recently i stopped played 14 because, again a huge time sink and now i have a family. But the MMO itch never left. Recently i started playing Dragonflight and discovered M+. Currently im a Balance Druid running +16-18 in Season 3 of Dragonflight. I like the fact that its pick up and play. A M+ run will take between 30-45 min then I can move on with my day. But I would like to give Season of Discovery a shot but am afraid ill wanna log in constantly and play for hours.
I replayed WC3 in preparation for playing classic again. Season of discovery is great, hardcore is too stressful for me, and retail is...I refuse to hype I know this cycle 😂.
My guild in Season of Discovery imploded after a week, and we all jumped ship to a different chosen guild. That's how I know it captures the true vanilla experience.
I have never played WoW. It has never appealed to me mechanically, aesthetically, or thematically. Nostalgia for me is playing FFXI. I'm quite certain I'll never play WoW. I've had 20 years of peripheral exposure to it and I have never been tempted to try it. That being said, I can totally understand getting caught up in nostalgia. If I heard FFXI was releasing some new old-school level 75 cap expansion, I'd be all over it too. I believe the "level 75 cap vs level 99 cap" is FFXI's equivalent to "WoW classic vs WoW retail". Fun fact, FFXI also did the incremental level cap increase with updates for the Wings of the Goddess expansion. When raising the level cap from 75 to 99. Every few months they would increase the level cap along with releasing more of the main story. Despite it throwing everything out of whack by raising the level cap, Wings of the Goddess was probably my favorite story in FFXI.
Such a weird and backwards video, the beauty of WoW right now is that it has all of these with all of them being a massive success right now from SoD, Hardcore to Retail (which is doing better than it ever has at retention right now). This is all value given the price of the subscription still and you can tell they are releasing in tandem with one another content. So if you play all three or all versions you are getting more WoW whenever the Retail or now SoD takes dips in content droughts. Which is less than ever before right now too.
Never really played WoW. I tried, but something about the color palette or graphics or whatever was triggering my migraines, so my lvl 5 Blood Elf Paladin in Burning Crusade had to be abandoned, just listened to my guildies in my cross EQ2/WoW guild on Mumble/Ventrilo. Thankfully, my headaches are under control so they aren't giving me seizures and watching you guys play looked interesting so who knows what the future holds...
Imagine if Activision Blizzard had split Retail from Classic and then had to report subscribers for each one. Be interesting to see what percentage of the player base is in which version. 😉
Classic is an awesome journey, the leveling IS the game, you guys are right, and IMO it plays way better than retail in some interesting ways other than smashing your four buttons, like having to manage your auto's timing as a warrior to maximize your damage and minimize the damage you receive. Every class having their own flavors is also something very interesting in classic, and they actually made it even better in SoD after giving some underwhelming specs some interesting stuff like feral druids having windfury. Speaking of retail, i'm glad i played it recently so i could realize how good of a game FFXIV actually is, retail has some cool stuff like good class fantasy, dragonriding and an interesting talent tree but thats about it. Story, music, even combat incredibly enough, i prefer FFXIV... After actually understanding how combat in FFXIV works, turning the "jank" like snapshots into an actual mechanic to use on your favour is extremely fun and rewarding, you just can't greed GCDs to maintain full uptime like that anywhere else. Also legacy controls in FFXIV is amazing... i just can't go back to usual MMO gameplay after experiencing it. Tab target is better on WoW tho lol.
Do you remember when Metzen was one of the ones that scurried into the shadows like roaches before California slapped Blizzard with a lawsuit? Because I do. But now he's back. Kinda weird, innit?
I'm glad to live in a world where a version of wow is good. I'm not gonna play it cause I burned out on Classic real hard back during phase 3ish But I'm glad people are enjoying it.
I only ever played wow for a week during WotLK then my friend stopped playing and I kinda stopped right after. My main worries about trying WoW right now are being bored because I don't have friends to play with and the game not being a fun time for solo play, and people being toxic. They're also the reasons why I love and stuck around XIV - people are chill and I have fun even without guilds or raiding.
I can’t speak to retail but in SoD the atmosphere is pretty friendly. Sure you will get the odd person who refuses to group with you though you are both doing the same quest. But I’ve had positive interactions with people almost the whole time. Though I’m one to try and foster those interactions in a positive way. If I already know what you are grinding, I’ll help out if ya want. That sort of thing 😊
Tbh I like retail, but I also only play very casually, and I never experienced vanilla or anything before Shadowlands. Classic was chill, but i think i lack the nostalgia that makes it worth the time investment. The team is still going through the expansion timeline, piling one thing on top of another. It just looks like it's going to catch up to retail and merge or something. 🤔
Give me new lands in classic! I played vanilla from launch for a very long time. I can’t go back through the same old Azeroth over and over and over and over again like these classic players. I want the vanilla experience in NEW areas, because the unknown and exploration were the most impactful to me, not talents and raids. Everything has been mapped out and there are no secrets. I know it won’t be old Azeroth, but give me the classic experience in new areas and I’m there.
This is what I’m hoping happens. They teased at least Karazhan crypts. But would very much enjoy other new dungeons. If they had one new dungeon for each phase I’d be ecstatic! But even my hopeful ideas are reminded of harsh business reality. They likely only have the ability and permission to reuse content already in game. So I’d expect a hyjal zone at best. But hope for so much more
I enjoy the gameplay of retail certainly. SoD has been a very interesting experience for me though as it's the first time I've really experienced vanilla-ish and done so at a leisurely pace. It's the kind of fun that comes with a side helping of frustration and a need for patience but it IS fun. Especially with the GG community
Yeah I agree with kyle I want to get that full dive isekai experience ( a good example of the kind of vrmmorpg i'd like to play Xearth online(Only sense online to a lesser extent from the light novel of the same name) which is from the light novel kenja no deshi wo nanaru kenja (she professed herself the disciple of the sage) main character get isekaid after messing around with an appearance change item to make his ideal female avatar and gets isekaid along with all the other players but as the appearance changed form of his now her character. very funny and the mmo boasted an unnatural player freedom players could make new classes, new items, new spells and new skills, things that never existed, research how to make things from real life in game make player kingdoms, entire houses, castles, towers etc. )
i introduced an older person into wow through vanilla and would say it's actually more intuitive. vanilla was made to gently onboard people who had never heard of an mmo. retail is made for people who have played wow for the past 15-20 years.
I feel ya on Vanilla. But... I'm not going back. I'm not giving Blizzard any more of my money. Sure, I loved Vanilla, "loved" past tense. I'm not giving them money just for Vanilla, or Classic or Season of Discovery. They have destroyed WoW and trust. I'm not rewarding them for finally listening after a decade plus of telling them they fucked up. Love your content and all, but Blizzard lost me for good.
My issue with classic WoW as someone who got into WoW this week is that I'm not interested in playing a 20+ year old game as it was before and has already been solved because I never played it back then so I dont have the nostalgia people have for it and I'd much rather play retail WoW because that version has QoL changes that brings the game up to modern standards and is more welcoming to a newer player.
Well that's the whole thing with SoD. It's unsolved Classic. New raids, items, skills etc Edit: and I strongly disagree that retail is welcoming to new players.i haven't played since Cata so for all intents and purposes I'm a "new player" and every time I've tried to play(once in WoD and once in BFA) there has been way too much stuff going on that's I've quit after an hour or two But if you feel welcomed, then that's great
It'll be nice for when FFXIV is in its lull period, WoW SoD or even retail can be a nice dip for those who are interested. Hopefully WoW delivers on its promises and build upon their game and improves it for the better.
With them announcing the next three expansions I'm expecting those expansions to be every 12 to 18 months. At full retail box price of course. Activision wants to get it on the annual release schedule like Call of Duty. So I expect the expansions to be smaller but you might actually get more content (but less per $) because it's an annual release instead of every 2 years.
problem with retail WoW. for a few expansions now: If you don't raid heroic or mythic, there's not a lot to do for casual game play. There's no treasure maps or hunt system. :(
I'm interested in hearing your opinions on it and keeping at least somewhat familiar with the ongoing discourse since Blizzard was such a big part of my childhood. But I'm personally not interested in playing one of their games again, I simply do not trust them not to burn me again 😛
as I am only 25 yo, I don't have the same existential crisis you guys seem to, however when I think that Pacific Rim is 10 years old this year, I kinda feel weird (that's the first example I thought of, but next year WoW will be 20 yo if you need another)
My take on retail WoW is this: Every expansion, Blizzard makes a bunch of promises. And every expansion, those promises wind up being proven to be about 85% lies. A decade ago, I was naive enough to believe that Blizzard simply had aspirations beyond their capability. Now, I know better. Nothing proves that better than Ion Hazzikostas saying something along the lines of: "We're looking at Dragonflight content with an eye towards making everything we introduce be an evergreen system." And that was all lies. The churn of "new content, new system, new things to do, OH! new patch, everything gets obsoleted" continued unabated. Which is honestly sad. And now he's saying the exact same thing about War Within. I do not believe him, or anyone at Blizzard anymore. As for Classic? I was really, really hoping for a Classic+ reveal at Blizzcon. I (and I think a significant portion of the nostalgic Classic players) do not care one iota about Cataclysm Classic, because that is, to a a large group of us, when WoW started its decline. But Season of Discovery? That's a fantastic step in the right direction. The Ashenvale PvP? That's amazing. The Classic team really is getting to flex their creativity it interesting ways.
Im not really interested in wow, and never have been. It isnt an mmo war thing, I've just not been interested even since i was a kid. That said, I AM interested in listening to GG talk about shit. Nice video!
I really wish I could feel okay giving money to blizzard again to try out season of discovery but they just haven't done enough to make it clear they have moved past the abuses and actually turned over a new leaf.
I think that taking Classic into Cata will be a huge mistake because seeing the world before is much more interesting than all the dumb crap that comes after that. Will it limit the audience? Sure but IMO that was a complete experience that Cata bent into a huge grindfest with dailies ad nauseum and huge chunks of the world getting messed up.
Blizzard is dead, the corpse had all its entrails removed and replaced by machinery that its only purpose is to make money. Nothing will bring back its soul.
These comments are wild. Unsure if it’s the WoW that brings out the bad in people or bad people use WoW as the best excuse to be needlessly negative. That is also directed at the FF14 comments that are bonkers as well. Glass houses and stones. No game is without flaws and to say nostalgia isn’t part of the draw of either… yeah ok. Enjoy games! Enjoy people you enjoy talking about games! It’s really that easy. ❤
That was a nice sales pitch and hype inducer at Blizzcon from Metzen, but that is what it was. It reeked of desperation to me on Blizzard's part. This hype happens every expansion and we give them that trust every expansion, but I can't trust them anymore. That doesn't mean I won't try the next expansion, but I won't pre-order. I didn't leave because of story - I left because it's way too focused on eSports, giving out chores, and dragging out certain game elements. In fact, I really dislike the changes to the crafting system as it feels like a way to gate keep and slow the player down just like all of their new systems. SoD is okay, but I've kind of lost interest as well. I really enjoy playing with others and there is only so long others will do lower level content. Once most people get to end game that is all they want to focus on. I find many are playing classic, but with the retail mindset. There are also other games I want to play in my Steam library and I can't make an MMO my sole gaming focus anymore. It limits me and my experiences in life. And this video again confirms I am definitely more similar to Kyle in my view of WoW and gaming. But I guess that is why your show works - you both aren't here just patting each other on the back regarding your interests in gaming. I also left after Wrath and came back when I heard Legion would have class halls and specific class stories. These class halls brought back some "personality" (Kyle's words again) and RPG elements into what is otherwise more of a big MMO where people all just follow the same guides and have the exact same experience. It's very bland.
I really wish ActivisionBlizzardKing wasn't ActivisionBlizzardKing, because I think where I am in my life now I would probably enjoy Classic WoW. Unfortunately, It's just not something I'm willing to support financially.
I would play classic, for me its two issues: No friends that play it, its way more of a social experience than retail, and the fact that the old character models are so damn ugly now xD. I suppose a third issue is time, as it would essentially be the 3rd MMO im playing.
Yeah, the only way for WoW to be back is for retail to be good and not the thousand retouch of classic. I think the perfect comparison is Skyrim. You can mod the game to give you unique experience each playthrough, but eventually you are going to get burnout and want to try something else completely.
On a serious note, Garrett and Kyle really need to step up their SoD playtime. Beau and the Core boys are beating us. (I'm slacking too, only hit 18 today)
The problem with new wow is they rely on gimmicks too much, every expansion needs to have a cool new concept that gets old the more you do it. It's like they're scared to just let wow be wow.😢
Everything they are discussing sounds terrible to me with classic wow, lol i do not want to do a dungeon 3 times for 3 different quests, give me my auto updating quests, lol.
This is what's wrong with society nowadays being too centrist. It's a wishy washy approach to life. You have to commit, you're either with us or against us. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do or do not there is no try. Yes or no. One or zero.
Centrist doesn't mean you don't have an opinion or you have a wishy-washy opinion you decerebrate, it means that the cumulation of your opinions that are left-right-auth-lib puts you in the middle, learn how to values
"I value my time" and plays hardcore at the same time seems like an oxymoron. I despise hardcore versions in pretty much any game. I don't have the time to allow for hardcore modes, not when I'm lucky to have an hour of free time on any given day. WoW doesn't respect time enough for people that have crummy jobs that leave you with no time.
Waiting for Dawntrail I decided to go try other MMOs. The one worth mentioning is Guild Wars 2, which I completed fully (including 3 full sets of legendary armor, all thinkets and 2 weapons, as well as every CM, even HTCM 4 times) and hate with a passion, a game that I recommend everyone avoid. It's a buggy piece of shit with an incompetent developer and has no future. Now I'm playing Classic Wotlk WoW. Whilst it has a bunch of things that I really don't like, I'm still enjoying playing it. And yeah, the toxicity in dungeons makes sense now. If you added corpse running to the dungeon every time you wiped, ff14 would be just as toxic in dungeons. What an absolute mistake making the game this way was. The pinnacle of short-sightedness and idiocy.
I'm sorry, I know your comment wasn't meant to be comedic but I nearly choked at the juxtaposition of "oh yes I went to play other games and fully completed GW2 which is FUCKING AWFUL NEVER PLAY IT" Sorry you regret your time with it though. I'm enjoying it so far.
@@Kritigri you just don't know it how I know it yet. But don't worry, the disappointment is inevitable and plentiful. There is no escape. And I'm not basing this off just myself either. I was in one of the biggest and oldest clans in EU and watched how the last year completely broke all the most dedicated players.
I play GW2 pretty casually and enjoy it. I'm not sure why you decided to push yourself through a game you hated. That hate doesn't hit all at once - it comes from us disliking, but feeling we are required to do everything before forming an opinion when we are not. Saying the devs are incompetent and the game has no future is comical though even from this casual's PoV.
@@melissas4874 GW2 only really works when you play it casually. The strongest point of the game is the open world. If you just fly around and do random stuff you can get plenty of enjoyment out of it, at least for a while. I also did all the metas/activities many times. But after you do all of them 10+ times each, you just feel like a hamster running inside a wheel. The reason why I pushed myself through it was because I went in trying my best to like it. Because it deserves a fair shot. Because maybe eventually it gets better. If you play ff14, you can't really in good faith go around saying that you won't try something just because it "gets better much later", right? So I went and did all of the content in the game multiple times and was very thorough. There are of course many thing that I liked, but even the best of them are far from perfect. The best thing by far was the community and it is also the only thing keeping this game alive, even as it's bleeding players, old and new. Amidst the hundreds if not thousands of crashes, bugs, glitches and just semi-random bullshit that makes the instance unplayable randomly (such as harvest temple warrior adrenaline bug or half the bugs in KO CM), I tried to like this game, but trying to like it felt like a second job and eventually it just wore me down. And as a Voidwalker, I'm practically Gw2's royalty. You just don't know how unbelievably bad it feels when one of the many documented bugs (there's literally a 144 page pdf guide to htcm that lists all the bugs) ruins your run and you're the only one who got it, but it fucked over your whole team. That shit gets to you. I got into the biggest guild in EU, because I wanted to like the game. I joined every discord I was sent a link to and talked to people because I wanted to like the game. I've played every facet, class, build, game mode, challenge, etc to find things I would like. I gave it a fair shake. I have no faith in arena net and I have no faith left that the game will survive for another 2 years. We're all the way down to an early access expansion, which has almost no new content. A bunch of repurposed assets, weapons, even bosses. And you have to wait for a cat's piss amount of content for 3-4 months. Doesn't it make you question where the money went after the game was released on steam and people flocked to the game? The only thing that actually gets updates and content is the cash shop. This doesn't cover even 5% of my grievances with the game, but I think that's enough. Just thinking about that game is making me angry again.
"The rumour is that there are more classic players than there are retail players" Yeah, that's what is is, just a rumour. Classic is an outdated game monetized on old/aging boomer gamers feeling nostalgic. It's an arcaic game in its full 20-year-old version. The systems were objectively worse, hence why they were fixed in the first place. The game adapted to its audience. I do agree that the current retail story is abysmal to say the least, and it just proves how good writing can enhance the feeling of accomplishments, as it once did. So there's that.
Which systems were worse? I like having a bit of RPG in my MMORPG. So class quests, buying upgrades, etc are all part of most or all RPG's. These are all gone from retail and for many of us it makes the game feel soulless and generic.
Classics team seems to succeed despite Blizzard. Like they are so small and have zero risk involved so the suits do not care and therefore do not interfere compared to the corpo nightmare of retail. One seems like a team having a good time making a product that makes people happy, the other seems like a team being miserable constantly hoping the next gimmick will bring people back and the playerbase at best is "eh its better than shadowlands" and thats an exercise in positive creativity versus pissing in the wind and hoping the direction changes.
We can't really pretend Blizzard is a Good Company(tm) with all that's transpired under Kotick's reign. Classic may indeed be the exception to their norm, but realistically it was also probably a case of right place, right time with the fact we have a newer generation of gamers who weren't even alive or intelligent enough to play WoW when it was new alongside a vastly different internet experience with social media and streaming. It may not be the same level of hipster pomposity like vinyl records over digital in the music sphere, but it's more or less the same idea of the new discovering the old and enough enjoying it that the experiment didn't crash and burn.
Retail has completely lost it's identity... so it's going to try to emulate FFXIV and hope it can become WoW again. Classic has a very unique identity to it, and it has clearly been shown to stand the test of time.
"Is retail back?" (Retail currently has participation matching Legion) "No!" Feels like you two have reached the disconnection point of not being able to accurately talk about retail. And the video didn't even need the first part to make the rest work.
Kyle: "That won't make the video"
Editors: "Yes It Will."
If i hadn't forgotten my coffee, I would have spit it out at that moment because it caught me so off guard but was fucking hilarious. Luckily the dark bitter thing in my life this morning was that existenial dread Garrett provided reminding me I am older than the people I saw as "adults" in movies and shows I watched growing up. Thank you Garrett for being my coffee this morning.
Great video as usual. I actually look forward to hearing more and watching you guys experience the WoW stuff. I have no desire myself, but damn if your WoW streams are not supremely chill second monitor or work monitor content that just ups the good vibes. Honestly, it's like the 14 leveling streams, same general, just hanging out energy that feels cozy af.
That existential dread bit was a too real. I've started to realize I'm older than a good chunk of content creators I watch, and every time I notice that I can't help but wonder when the heck that happened.
So, I'm a FFXIV player 110%. I played a bit of Vanilla WoW and bounced off at least in part for social reasons (my friends all stopped playing pretty early and, as every other shy person knows, talking to people you don't know is illegal). I started following you guys relatively early on, I think the first 'new' video I saw from you was 'that moment' in Heavensward. Honestly, your shared excitement for WoW Season of Discovery has been a greater selling point for World of Warcraft than anything the game or my friends have ever said or done. Honestly, if I end up giving WoW Classic a try, it will be because of the two of you.
Haha, some folks would probably shame us for selling you on SoD. But we are legit digging this remix of an older style of gameplay.
I love that we’re on the age of why not both? And able to say yes to both! Our younger selves couldn’t afford multiple subs, so we went deep into one game only mentality, but we absolutely can have more than one, or even play in “seasons” and swap our subs around if we must, and it’s an awesome era for gaming, at least for me it is!
I was in an accident a couple weeks ago. A young lady rear-ended an old guy, and pushed his car into me.
The fact that she was born in 2005 gave me more of an existential crisis than the accident itself.
LOL! But also glad you're okay.
I'm totally fine. I stopped, the guy behind me stopped, she did not. She wedged her car *under* the guy in the minivan so badly his back wheels were off the ground. Thankfully, no injuries. My bumper got scratched up, but that's it. The other two cars were probably totaled.
Pro Tip: if you are so short that you can barely see over the steering wheel and dashboard, do not admit that to the officer responding to the accident you just caused.
I was a WoW virgin when I dipped my toe into Classic in 2019. I was a resto druid, so I found levelling solo to be pretty much impossible in places. I stuck with it, though, and cleared Onyxia and MC, and got all my BiS gear by Christmas. I really enjoyed it and left with great memories.
But I didn't want to continue, and I wouldn't want to do it again. Anyway, I doubt I'd reach lvl 10 in Hardcore!
Ayo, i did the same thing with holy pally- Ended up going the dungeon route to level. It was a fun time and i really enjoyed myself...but, i'm with you I wouldnt do it again XD.
Hearing you talk about classic WoW reminds me why I love and frequently revisit FFXI, especially something like HorizonXI which is like a refreshed version of its hey-day release.
Following thru with my previous promise:
For ARR extremes, Ifrit is a fun fight, especially for healers. Do a cohealer stream with Garrett on scholar and Kyle on astro!
so interesting hearing you guys talk about old and retail wow as an outsider! for as long as i’ve been aware of gaming, wow was always such a monolith, but as i learn more it’s astounding these are the same games. i’m definitely interested in seeing if they stick with their promises of not tossing systems away more than their story promises.
HC and SoD have been super fun. I'm on a XIV break until we're closer to DT so WoW Classic is scratching the MMO itch perfectly.
I think there's something that you touched on here that's important. Early MMOs like WoW and EQ and Asheron's Call were very much more about the stories they allowed you to create for yourself than they were the story the game was telling you. FFXIV (and, apparently, upcoming WoW retail) are focused less on organic user-created stories and more on The Story Of The Game. Don't get me wrong, XIV's story is unparalleled in its quality and impact, but there's not as much room in it for those little personal "hey, here's what happened when I encountered this weird thing and someone came by and helped with it" tales that old MMOs were full of. One isn't better than the other, but part of that JANK you talk about is what allows those little personal stories to happen.
As someone who falls on the other side of the retail-classic divide, it's interesting to hear people talk about why they prefer classic. I think the only thing I strongly disagreed with is the statement that retail doesn't have as many places for incremental self improvement. The specific thing I like about retail is that when you're doing difficult content, it is like 95% incremental self improvement by volume, building an ever-growing stack of small improvements until you win.
I was part of a group that decided to do SoD from my retail guild and we have been pretty disappointed so far. Part of this is due to an expectations mismatch - I/we think of leveling as a chore to be completed before we get to have fun, and boy is it a chore in SoD. And then we get to the raid and clear it in one night. I think it's pretty unlikely we'll continue, but I'm glad that this exists for people that prefer it - that just isn't us.
Garrett talks about how we're all old - I laughed.
Garrett talks about how they're older than the parents in Home Alone, then remembering that I'm older than them - OH NO
Same!
I only play FFXIV right now but I've played WoW and I don't hate it. I've really enjoyed your SoD and Hardcore streams. I can't wait to see Deadmines Hardcore.
I know nothing about wow but I enjoy hearing you guys explain the experience
Also I'm enthralled by Garrett's hair my God it's glorious
I have the silliest reason for preferring classic Wow, as my version of endgame was exploring funky out of bounds level geometry and all of that was fixed in Cataclysm.
Amen! Jumping up mountains was true endgame until they wrecked it 🫤
@@gateauxq4604that is what I miss most.
Great video! Happy to see others enjoying Hardcore as much as I am!
Season of Discovery is a lot of fun, but what turns me off is the fact it is a temporary mode. the other issue i have with Classic is the fact it has been out for a while so how is the experience for someone who joins in 2023?
Well, most of the playerbase is in hardcore or SoD, so regular classic you have almost no one leveling now
I personally get the feeling that SoD will last until the player base leaves it. Seeing as they’ve yet to say “when” it will end. Just that it is seasonal. Unlike with season of mastery, where the end being Naxx was predetermined.
I personally hope that there will be more added to discover outside of the runes. Like new dungeons or adding story/text to the areas that have been mysteries since vanilla itself. (Uldum but not cata version) the shade of eranikus, timbermaw hold!
I've been having a lot of fun in Season of Discovery so far. I'm not sure how long I'll stick with it because it's a very different game than modern WoW and FFXIV, but it feels a lot like WoW did when I first started playing. Earthy, clunky, and adventurous. It scratches an itch that modern WoW and even FFXIV don't.
That being said, FFXIV is by far my "home". There are a LOT of itches that IT scratches. But now and again, especially during content lulls, I could see myself leveling a toon in Season of Discovery. IF Blizzard doesn't do Blizzard things and fuck it up. So to even call it cautious optimism might be generous.
Also I just looked at the thumbnail for this video more closely and it's amazing lmfao
@@matthewmay6806 Aw, thanks! I REALLY wanted an old school vibe for this one.
The premise of this video reminds wanting to take your old knowledge of a game you loved reminds me of randomizers that's been popular for the past number of years. Link to the Past randomizer was the big breakout for the randomizer craze, but there's randomizer for old JRPG, super Metroid, even new game evoking old games like axiom verge and time spinners.
You can take your knowledge of the base game but use it to overcome new challenges like beating a Zelda dungeon without some tools you had in the vanilla playthrough because the hammer lets you kill stuff if you don't have your sword. Or beating a final fantasy 4 boss with a party you were never supposed to have. Season of discovery sounds like that applied to wow and I think there's a lot of room to explore that idea
I've never messed around with randomizers. Is there one for OG Pokemon?
@@Amovetv You can generate a randomized rom for a few pokemon games online and then download that rom file.
Randomizing things like starter pokemons, which pokemons appear in the game (gen1 only, or adding later gens), randomizing Trainer battles, wild pokemon, pokemon movesets and even the OST (again adding random songs from later games if you want).
And im with you Garrett. I was born in 1979, got Link to the Past the day it came out in spring of 7th grade, played a ton of Ocarina and Majoras. Played the first two on NES a ton in elementary school, got the Zelda collectors edition Gamecube in Dec 2003 that had the disc with the two NES and the two 64 games
And i didnt like Breath much at all. Havent tried the new Switch zelda yet
I'm in same boat, as soon as BoTW had the durability for weapons and the stupid time sink of having to juggle weapons, etc. It completely turned me off and I absolutely refuse to bother with the new Zelda games. I probably replayed Link to the Past 30-50 times, just loved every bit of it and it had tons of enjoyment for me.
I enjoyed BotW, but I'll never play through it again. It's way too long of a commitment for me.
TotK looks fun, but the total disregard for the lore of the series annoyed me enough to prioritize other games I wanted. It's also not a game I'd replay, and I find myself liking replayability in my games more and more as I grow older.
Can't wait to join your classic guild ^.^ glad you're both having fun.
Request an invite in either the Hardcore or Season of Discovery channels in our Discord. We don't currently have one for standard Classic.
The SoD one is so friendly and fun!
my experience in vanilla must have been different from most people's, because by and large I didn't like it very much, and thus I don't have any nostalgia for it. I really enjoyed a lot of the quality of life things that came over the years and the idea of playing without them sounds awful to me- I've never even considered playing Classic. For me it was the story being unbearably bad in retail that caused me to leave for greener pastures. And since they're not changing up the writing team, their promises of an improved story are falling on deaf ears for me and I don't have any intention of wasting my energy setting myself up for disappointment.
Being an older gamer these days, it always felt like some people don't realize how easily MMOs could "go wrong" for an individual, often for reasons outside their control. Like from the FFXI side of the spectrum, if your favorite job was among the weaker ones, you were having a more difficult time leveling and getting gear because strangers didn't really want to be bogged down by the non-meta tactics of a specific event or encounter. If you weren't someone who could play during peak times, then your social options also diminish. Guild hopping until possibly finding the one for you can also be a slow process, where each step of learning about your peers may eventually teach you you're incompatible. I'm sure women out there would also have their own horror stories about participating in what may have been traditionally considered a hobby for guys. Just playing with an RL friend or two can also yield a significant edge that anyone going in solo wouldn't have, further if they're more the shy sort.
When it all fits, great. Personally, I don't think I ever got lucky and I'm not ashamed to admit I occasionally get jealous of what our boys have going on here. Later life knowledge also revealing I've probably been neurodivergent all along would also explain a lot of my experiences and preferences when it comes to social interactions, personal limits, being forced to party even for absolutely mundane grinds, and what could often feel like tolerated impropriety that I didn't want any part of with some gamer behaviors. And historically whenever I've tried to retell my story in other venues, there's inevitably someone that has to demand it's fiction because it doesn't match with their own experience and preferences. A lot of times it just feels gatekeep-y even if it turned out I knew way more about the given game (yay hyperfixations as an example of ND realization) or actually had more accomplishments under my belt to justify certain takes.
Otherwise, yeah, if a game burns ya, there's frankly no obligation to give it a second chance. I tried old WoW circa-2007, myself. Just didn't click. I could list dislikes, but I know for some they'd be likes. There's been a certain degree of frustration with the WoW clone fad that followed over the years, but inevitably that's just the game industry chasing money with as little effort as possible when it comes to new ideas and experimentation. I've got my own nostalgia armor and have no qualms ripping into FFXI as it more or less was my MMO of choice from 2004 to 2013. Some would call me a hater for even trying, but I've always subscribed to that idea that any gamer that hardcore locks themselves into one game is doing themselves a disservice, especially when you learn how other games handle specific issues and derive a logical evolution of what should and shouldn't happen in the future. If WoW Classic happened much like how FFXI Classic "enthusiasts" thought, I imagine this video never would've happened and the experiment would've died a few months after. Credit where it's due, Blizz didn't 1:1 the old days and put some experience to use. Suggest the same to the XI (private server) crowd, let alone why SE would never do it, and they'd practically assert you're committing war crimes. But again, that likely be traced back to their experiences differing and that "success" fueling the nostalgia monster.
My current thoughts on both retail and all versions of classic, is that its not for me anymore, I've moved on, i still talk to guildies on discord, but the well has been tainted irreparably and I've just found a new well instead.
Good for those that enjoy the game though
7:50 information I never know but now cursed with XD
As for nostalgia factor, I find reminescence on old time gives me both joy and pain, which make it bittersweet at best.
looking on WoW, both Classic and Retail, through the lens of nostalgia make me feel like it's an estranged friend who was once very close, but probably can never be reconciled with ever again.
Getting old... When that TV show you loved ended 'just a few years ago' actually ended 20 years ago! 😆
I do like leveling, because it's a journey. Meeting new people, helping them, discovering new creatures, and discovering the joys and terrors of the world... Raiding just feels like executing on a plan... perhaps even successfully. 😅
To be fair classic has withstood the test of time because of the feeling it gives in nostalgia but also its ability to provide a challenge and a reward for accomplishing goals and for a wow fan to get a chance to re-experience that is like a gift from the heavens above
I played FFXI and its was brutally cruel with its reduction of exp upon death its hard fights and limits on skills and abilities but man did I love grabbing a new job and beating up rabbits outside in ronfure then traversing to la thiene(?) plateau and when I got close to level 12 I could start doing parties in valkrum dunes where we'd just beat the crap out of anything we could as the healers tried to keep the tank alive and when someone died and we shouted for a raise or someone ported home to come back and revive the party after a wipe we'd spend the down time talking to each other about strats skills games movies it felt like a bonfire scene in baldurs gate except we were all corpses in the sand waiting for help
I wish I could play that again in a moment where everyone would be happily leveling with each other and just enjoying themselves
But that is a moment in time and we don't have the same opportunities and game devs know that too so rather than have people say "I don't have the time" they make changes to the game so people have enough time and can then leave and come back and not feel abandoned or left behind
Wow needs to find that groove where either you make it so its more player friendly or make it so the ceiling isn't as far from the ground so people can still feel like their accomplishments were worth the effort
I'm a late Gen Xer.... I've been at my mid-life crisis for half a decade already. It's why I keep going back to games like Fallout 3 and am working on a retro game set up complete with an old CRT set up. NES, Genesis, SNES, 386/486 PC games.
But still no interest in WoW currently. If I didn't have to pay another sub, I'd have more motivation to play.
I just want a game that feels like WoW with its combat, and the content of FF14. It's all I was thinking while doing some Bozja grinding to work on my RDM weapon.
A part of me really wants to try out Season of Discovery, but im very afraid ill get sucked in. Heres some context, I started WoW during Wotlk and played for a couple of years and then left because "MMO's were taking up too much of my life". During Covid I started playing FF14, and i played it a lot, I ran savage for a few years as a black mage. Recently i stopped played 14 because, again a huge time sink and now i have a family. But the MMO itch never left. Recently i started playing Dragonflight and discovered M+. Currently im a Balance Druid running +16-18 in Season 3 of Dragonflight. I like the fact that its pick up and play. A M+ run will take between 30-45 min then I can move on with my day. But I would like to give Season of Discovery a shot but am afraid ill wanna log in constantly and play for hours.
I replayed WC3 in preparation for playing classic again. Season of discovery is great, hardcore is too stressful for me, and retail is...I refuse to hype I know this cycle 😂.
My guild in Season of Discovery imploded after a week, and we all jumped ship to a different chosen guild. That's how I know it captures the true vanilla experience.
Glad you see y'all are having fun. I don't personally think I'm going to play WoW ever again but devs having fun is always a recipe for a fun game.
At the mention of the age of the actors in Home Alone, I had to resist the urge to crumble to dust.
9:15 what really got me is when i realized i'm now older than Homer Simpson when my first memories of the Simpsons is when I was Lisa's age
I have never played WoW. It has never appealed to me mechanically, aesthetically, or thematically. Nostalgia for me is playing FFXI. I'm quite certain I'll never play WoW. I've had 20 years of peripheral exposure to it and I have never been tempted to try it. That being said, I can totally understand getting caught up in nostalgia. If I heard FFXI was releasing some new old-school level 75 cap expansion, I'd be all over it too. I believe the "level 75 cap vs level 99 cap" is FFXI's equivalent to "WoW classic vs WoW retail".
Fun fact, FFXI also did the incremental level cap increase with updates for the Wings of the Goddess expansion. When raising the level cap from 75 to 99. Every few months they would increase the level cap along with releasing more of the main story. Despite it throwing everything out of whack by raising the level cap, Wings of the Goddess was probably my favorite story in FFXI.
Such a weird and backwards video, the beauty of WoW right now is that it has all of these with all of them being a massive success right now from SoD, Hardcore to Retail (which is doing better than it ever has at retention right now). This is all value given the price of the subscription still and you can tell they are releasing in tandem with one another content. So if you play all three or all versions you are getting more WoW whenever the Retail or now SoD takes dips in content droughts. Which is less than ever before right now too.
Never really played WoW. I tried, but something about the color palette or graphics or whatever was triggering my migraines, so my lvl 5 Blood Elf Paladin in Burning Crusade had to be abandoned, just listened to my guildies in my cross EQ2/WoW guild on Mumble/Ventrilo. Thankfully, my headaches are under control so they aren't giving me seizures and watching you guys play looked interesting so who knows what the future holds...
12:08 -- GOD I love your editing.
Imagine if Activision Blizzard had split Retail from Classic and then had to report subscribers for each one. Be interesting to see what percentage of the player base is in which version. 😉
I've been way more tempted to try Classic over retail as a first WoW experience. From the outside it just seems like less pressure
Classic is an awesome journey, the leveling IS the game, you guys are right, and IMO it plays way better than retail in some interesting ways other than smashing your four buttons, like having to manage your auto's timing as a warrior to maximize your damage and minimize the damage you receive. Every class having their own flavors is also something very interesting in classic, and they actually made it even better in SoD after giving some underwhelming specs some interesting stuff like feral druids having windfury.
Speaking of retail, i'm glad i played it recently so i could realize how good of a game FFXIV actually is, retail has some cool stuff like good class fantasy, dragonriding and an interesting talent tree but thats about it. Story, music, even combat incredibly enough, i prefer FFXIV... After actually understanding how combat in FFXIV works, turning the "jank" like snapshots into an actual mechanic to use on your favour is extremely fun and rewarding, you just can't greed GCDs to maintain full uptime like that anywhere else. Also legacy controls in FFXIV is amazing... i just can't go back to usual MMO gameplay after experiencing it. Tab target is better on WoW tho lol.
Do you remember when Metzen was one of the ones that scurried into the shadows like roaches before California slapped Blizzard with a lawsuit? Because I do. But now he's back. Kinda weird, innit?
Excuse me sirs, I am in my mid-40s, I claim Gen X thank you very much.
I'm glad to live in a world where a version of wow is good.
I'm not gonna play it cause I burned out on Classic real hard back during phase 3ish
But I'm glad people are enjoying it.
I only ever played wow for a week during WotLK then my friend stopped playing and I kinda stopped right after. My main worries about trying WoW right now are being bored because I don't have friends to play with and the game not being a fun time for solo play, and people being toxic. They're also the reasons why I love and stuck around XIV - people are chill and I have fun even without guilds or raiding.
I can’t speak to retail but in SoD the atmosphere is pretty friendly. Sure you will get the odd person who refuses to group with you though you are both doing the same quest. But I’ve had positive interactions with people almost the whole time.
Though I’m one to try and foster those interactions in a positive way. If I already know what you are grinding, I’ll help out if ya want. That sort of thing 😊
Tbh I like retail, but I also only play very casually, and I never experienced vanilla or anything before Shadowlands.
Classic was chill, but i think i lack the nostalgia that makes it worth the time investment. The team is still going through the expansion timeline, piling one thing on top of another. It just looks like it's going to catch up to retail and merge or something. 🤔
Give me new lands in classic! I played vanilla from launch for a very long time. I can’t go back through the same old Azeroth over and over and over and over again like these classic players. I want the vanilla experience in NEW areas, because the unknown and exploration were the most impactful to me, not talents and raids. Everything has been mapped out and there are no secrets. I know it won’t be old Azeroth, but give me the classic experience in new areas and I’m there.
This is what I’m hoping happens. They teased at least Karazhan crypts. But would very much enjoy other new dungeons. If they had one new dungeon for each phase I’d be ecstatic! But even my hopeful ideas are reminded of harsh business reality. They likely only have the ability and permission to reuse content already in game. So I’d expect a hyjal zone at best. But hope for so much more
I enjoy the gameplay of retail certainly. SoD has been a very interesting experience for me though as it's the first time I've really experienced vanilla-ish and done so at a leisurely pace. It's the kind of fun that comes with a side helping of frustration and a need for patience but it IS fun. Especially with the GG community
Woop thank you for including Overlord Kyle
Cool vid boys have an engagement thank you love you
Yeah I agree with kyle I want to get that full dive isekai experience ( a good example of the kind of vrmmorpg i'd like to play Xearth online(Only sense online to a lesser extent from the light novel of the same name) which is from the light novel kenja no deshi wo nanaru kenja (she professed herself the disciple of the sage) main character get isekaid after messing around with an appearance change item to make his ideal female avatar and gets isekaid along with all the other players but as the appearance changed form of his now her character. very funny and the mmo boasted an unnatural player freedom players could make new classes, new items, new spells and new skills, things that never existed, research how to make things from real life in game make player kingdoms, entire houses, castles, towers etc. )
i introduced an older person into wow through vanilla and would say it's actually more intuitive. vanilla was made to gently onboard people who had never heard of an mmo. retail is made for people who have played wow for the past 15-20 years.
I feel ya on Vanilla. But... I'm not going back. I'm not giving Blizzard any more of my money. Sure, I loved Vanilla, "loved" past tense. I'm not giving them money just for Vanilla, or Classic or Season of Discovery. They have destroyed WoW and trust. I'm not rewarding them for finally listening after a decade plus of telling them they fucked up. Love your content and all, but Blizzard lost me for good.
My issue with classic WoW as someone who got into WoW this week is that I'm not interested in playing a 20+ year old game as it was before and has already been solved because I never played it back then so I dont have the nostalgia people have for it and I'd much rather play retail WoW because that version has QoL changes that brings the game up to modern standards and is more welcoming to a newer player.
Well that's the whole thing with SoD. It's unsolved Classic. New raids, items, skills etc
Edit: and I strongly disagree that retail is welcoming to new players.i haven't played since Cata so for all intents and purposes I'm a "new player" and every time I've tried to play(once in WoD and once in BFA) there has been way too much stuff going on that's I've quit after an hour or two
But if you feel welcomed, then that's great
Suddenly missing WC3's map editor. Good times.
It'll be nice for when FFXIV is in its lull period, WoW SoD or even retail can be a nice dip for those who are interested. Hopefully WoW delivers on its promises and build upon their game and improves it for the better.
Remember this episode for the clip of Garrett saying he's not interested in playing TotK yo bring it up once he does and loves it
With them announcing the next three expansions I'm expecting those expansions to be every 12 to 18 months. At full retail box price of course. Activision wants to get it on the annual release schedule like Call of Duty. So I expect the expansions to be smaller but you might actually get more content (but less per $) because it's an annual release instead of every 2 years.
problem with retail WoW. for a few expansions now: If you don't raid heroic or mythic, there's not a lot to do for casual game play. There's no treasure maps or hunt system. :(
My dream is to buy a R32 Skyline. they keep going up in price :(
My condolences. They used to be so cheap.
I'm interested in hearing your opinions on it and keeping at least somewhat familiar with the ongoing discourse since Blizzard was such a big part of my childhood. But I'm personally not interested in playing one of their games again, I simply do not trust them not to burn me again 😛
SOD IS LIKE SHREK
SOD IS LOVE SOD IS LIFE
as I am only 25 yo, I don't have the same existential crisis you guys seem to, however when I think that Pacific Rim is 10 years old this year, I kinda feel weird (that's the first example I thought of, but next year WoW will be 20 yo if you need another)
Mid thirties here and I already feel like I need back surgery.
Hey, I'm still younger than the mom in Home Alone, by like 5 years but still technically younger.
My take on retail WoW is this:
Every expansion, Blizzard makes a bunch of promises. And every expansion, those promises wind up being proven to be about 85% lies.
A decade ago, I was naive enough to believe that Blizzard simply had aspirations beyond their capability. Now, I know better. Nothing proves that better than Ion Hazzikostas saying something along the lines of: "We're looking at Dragonflight content with an eye towards making everything we introduce be an evergreen system." And that was all lies. The churn of "new content, new system, new things to do, OH! new patch, everything gets obsoleted" continued unabated. Which is honestly sad.
And now he's saying the exact same thing about War Within. I do not believe him, or anyone at Blizzard anymore.
As for Classic? I was really, really hoping for a Classic+ reveal at Blizzcon. I (and I think a significant portion of the nostalgic Classic players) do not care one iota about Cataclysm Classic, because that is, to a a large group of us, when WoW started its decline. But Season of Discovery? That's a fantastic step in the right direction. The Ashenvale PvP? That's amazing. The Classic team really is getting to flex their creativity it interesting ways.
Im not really interested in wow, and never have been. It isnt an mmo war thing, I've just not been interested even since i was a kid. That said, I AM interested in listening to GG talk about shit. Nice video!
I really wish I could feel okay giving money to blizzard again to try out season of discovery but they just haven't done enough to make it clear they have moved past the abuses and actually turned over a new leaf.
Old WoW made me hate myself and everyone I played with, and resent my family for keeping me from playing, in a much better way than new WoW. 😂
I think that taking Classic into Cata will be a huge mistake because seeing the world before is much more interesting than all the dumb crap that comes after that. Will it limit the audience? Sure but IMO that was a complete experience that Cata bent into a huge grindfest with dailies ad nauseum and huge chunks of the world getting messed up.
good morning all o/
Blizzard is dead, the corpse had all its entrails removed and replaced by machinery that its only purpose is to make money. Nothing will bring back its soul.
yep
These comments are wild. Unsure if it’s the WoW that brings out the bad in people or bad people use WoW as the best excuse to be needlessly negative. That is also directed at the FF14 comments that are bonkers as well. Glass houses and stones. No game is without flaws and to say nostalgia isn’t part of the draw of either… yeah ok.
Enjoy games! Enjoy people you enjoy talking about games! It’s really that easy. ❤
I am not an "Elder Millennial" ... I am an ELDRITCH MILLENNIAL! mwahahaha
That was a nice sales pitch and hype inducer at Blizzcon from Metzen, but that is what it was. It reeked of desperation to me on Blizzard's part. This hype happens every expansion and we give them that trust every expansion, but I can't trust them anymore. That doesn't mean I won't try the next expansion, but I won't pre-order. I didn't leave because of story - I left because it's way too focused on eSports, giving out chores, and dragging out certain game elements. In fact, I really dislike the changes to the crafting system as it feels like a way to gate keep and slow the player down just like all of their new systems.
SoD is okay, but I've kind of lost interest as well. I really enjoy playing with others and there is only so long others will do lower level content. Once most people get to end game that is all they want to focus on. I find many are playing classic, but with the retail mindset. There are also other games I want to play in my Steam library and I can't make an MMO my sole gaming focus anymore. It limits me and my experiences in life.
And this video again confirms I am definitely more similar to Kyle in my view of WoW and gaming. But I guess that is why your show works - you both aren't here just patting each other on the back regarding your interests in gaming. I also left after Wrath and came back when I heard Legion would have class halls and specific class stories. These class halls brought back some "personality" (Kyle's words again) and RPG elements into what is otherwise more of a big MMO where people all just follow the same guides and have the exact same experience. It's very bland.
This video makes me want to dust off my WoW character or remake it 🤔 For Classic, not retail. 😂
With Classic, leveling is considered part of the gameplay loop where as for Retail leveling just seems to be something you do to get to endgame.
Yall calling me out on how old i am and me nodding in truth lol😊
I really wish ActivisionBlizzardKing wasn't ActivisionBlizzardKing, because I think where I am in my life now I would probably enjoy Classic WoW. Unfortunately, It's just not something I'm willing to support financially.
This video makes me want to dust off my WoW character or remake it 🤔 For Classic, not retail.
I would play classic, for me its two issues: No friends that play it, its way more of a social experience than retail, and the fact that the old character models are so damn ugly now xD. I suppose a third issue is time, as it would essentially be the 3rd MMO im playing.
Yeah, the only way for WoW to be back is for retail to be good and not the thousand retouch of classic.
I think the perfect comparison is Skyrim. You can mod the game to give you unique experience each playthrough,
but eventually you are going to get burnout and want to try something else completely.
On a serious note, Garrett and Kyle really need to step up their SoD playtime. Beau and the Core boys are beating us. (I'm slacking too, only hit 18 today)
The problem with new wow is they rely on gimmicks too much, every expansion needs to have a cool new concept that gets old the more you do it. It's like they're scared to just let wow be wow.😢
New Dawning Memento
Everything they are discussing sounds terrible to me with classic wow, lol i do not want to do a dungeon 3 times for 3 different quests, give me my auto updating quests, lol.
This is what's wrong with society nowadays being too centrist. It's a wishy washy approach to life. You have to commit, you're either with us or against us. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do or do not there is no try. Yes or no. One or zero.
Centrist doesn't mean you don't have an opinion or you have a wishy-washy opinion you decerebrate, it means that the cumulation of your opinions that are left-right-auth-lib puts you in the middle, learn how to values
bro its a video game
/me turns to dust
"I value my time" and plays hardcore at the same time seems like an oxymoron. I despise hardcore versions in pretty much any game. I don't have the time to allow for hardcore modes, not when I'm lucky to have an hour of free time on any given day. WoW doesn't respect time enough for people that have crummy jobs that leave you with no time.
Waiting for Dawntrail I decided to go try other MMOs.
The one worth mentioning is Guild Wars 2, which I completed fully (including 3 full sets of legendary armor, all thinkets and 2 weapons, as well as every CM, even HTCM 4 times) and hate with a passion, a game that I recommend everyone avoid. It's a buggy piece of shit with an incompetent developer and has no future.
Now I'm playing Classic Wotlk WoW. Whilst it has a bunch of things that I really don't like, I'm still enjoying playing it. And yeah, the toxicity in dungeons makes sense now. If you added corpse running to the dungeon every time you wiped, ff14 would be just as toxic in dungeons. What an absolute mistake making the game this way was. The pinnacle of short-sightedness and idiocy.
Damn i dont watch much GW2 content but that felt personal
I'm sorry, I know your comment wasn't meant to be comedic but I nearly choked at the juxtaposition of "oh yes I went to play other games and fully completed GW2 which is FUCKING AWFUL NEVER PLAY IT"
Sorry you regret your time with it though. I'm enjoying it so far.
@@Kritigri you just don't know it how I know it yet. But don't worry, the disappointment is inevitable and plentiful. There is no escape. And I'm not basing this off just myself either. I was in one of the biggest and oldest clans in EU and watched how the last year completely broke all the most dedicated players.
I play GW2 pretty casually and enjoy it. I'm not sure why you decided to push yourself through a game you hated. That hate doesn't hit all at once - it comes from us disliking, but feeling we are required to do everything before forming an opinion when we are not.
Saying the devs are incompetent and the game has no future is comical though even from this casual's PoV.
@@melissas4874 GW2 only really works when you play it casually. The strongest point of the game is the open world. If you just fly around and do random stuff you can get plenty of enjoyment out of it, at least for a while. I also did all the metas/activities many times. But after you do all of them 10+ times each, you just feel like a hamster running inside a wheel.
The reason why I pushed myself through it was because I went in trying my best to like it. Because it deserves a fair shot. Because maybe eventually it gets better. If you play ff14, you can't really in good faith go around saying that you won't try something just because it "gets better much later", right? So I went and did all of the content in the game multiple times and was very thorough. There are of course many thing that I liked, but even the best of them are far from perfect. The best thing by far was the community and it is also the only thing keeping this game alive, even as it's bleeding players, old and new. Amidst the hundreds if not thousands of crashes, bugs, glitches and just semi-random bullshit that makes the instance unplayable randomly (such as harvest temple warrior adrenaline bug or half the bugs in KO CM), I tried to like this game, but trying to like it felt like a second job and eventually it just wore me down. And as a Voidwalker, I'm practically Gw2's royalty. You just don't know how unbelievably bad it feels when one of the many documented bugs (there's literally a 144 page pdf guide to htcm that lists all the bugs) ruins your run and you're the only one who got it, but it fucked over your whole team. That shit gets to you.
I got into the biggest guild in EU, because I wanted to like the game.
I joined every discord I was sent a link to and talked to people because I wanted to like the game.
I've played every facet, class, build, game mode, challenge, etc to find things I would like. I gave it a fair shake. I have no faith in arena net and I have no faith left that the game will survive for another 2 years. We're all the way down to an early access expansion, which has almost no new content. A bunch of repurposed assets, weapons, even bosses. And you have to wait for a cat's piss amount of content for 3-4 months. Doesn't it make you question where the money went after the game was released on steam and people flocked to the game? The only thing that actually gets updates and content is the cash shop.
This doesn't cover even 5% of my grievances with the game, but I think that's enough. Just thinking about that game is making me angry again.
3 words for blizzard WoW: Up Hill Battle
💯
I hate garret for reminding me of my elder status.
Elder millennial? I prefer Eldritch millennial, thank you very much
"The rumour is that there are more classic players than there are retail players" Yeah, that's what is is, just a rumour. Classic is an outdated game monetized on old/aging boomer gamers feeling nostalgic. It's an arcaic game in its full 20-year-old version. The systems were objectively worse, hence why they were fixed in the first place. The game adapted to its audience.
I do agree that the current retail story is abysmal to say the least, and it just proves how good writing can enhance the feeling of accomplishments, as it once did. So there's that.
I mean, if it is a rumor, then the state of wows player numbers isnt very pretty either
Which systems were worse? I like having a bit of RPG in my MMORPG. So class quests, buying upgrades, etc are all part of most or all RPG's. These are all gone from retail and for many of us it makes the game feel soulless and generic.
Classics team seems to succeed despite Blizzard. Like they are so small and have zero risk involved so the suits do not care and therefore do not interfere compared to the corpo nightmare of retail. One seems like a team having a good time making a product that makes people happy, the other seems like a team being miserable constantly hoping the next gimmick will bring people back and the playerbase at best is "eh its better than shadowlands" and thats an exercise in positive creativity versus pissing in the wind and hoping the direction changes.
We can't really pretend Blizzard is a Good Company(tm) with all that's transpired under Kotick's reign. Classic may indeed be the exception to their norm, but realistically it was also probably a case of right place, right time with the fact we have a newer generation of gamers who weren't even alive or intelligent enough to play WoW when it was new alongside a vastly different internet experience with social media and streaming. It may not be the same level of hipster pomposity like vinyl records over digital in the music sphere, but it's more or less the same idea of the new discovering the old and enough enjoying it that the experiment didn't crash and burn.
Retail has completely lost it's identity... so it's going to try to emulate FFXIV and hope it can become WoW again. Classic has a very unique identity to it, and it has clearly been shown to stand the test of time.
"Is retail back?"
(Retail currently has participation matching Legion)
"No!"
Feels like you two have reached the disconnection point of not being able to accurately talk about retail. And the video didn't even need the first part to make the rest work.