At 6:35 is what I should have done from the get go. I was fixated on cylinder #1 at the start but in hindsight I should have just put the gap in the CKP hole and see where the engine was located. Would have allowed me to figure this out much faster.
Hi, recently I posted a comment on this video, which by the way in my opinion is an outstanding educational video. However when I received a reply from you I felt that you may have misunderstood what I was trying to get across so I removed my comment and then considered how I wrote it. The reason I did this was because my comment was not really for you. It was for the people who where trying to follow along and understand this video. If you recall I made comment relating to the trailing edge of the tooth and I didn't need some sort of text book to come to that opinion. I, like you have been in the game of engines here in Australia for 46 yrs and am involved with all types of engine management systems, Gm ford, motec, holley, autronics just to name a few. You stated in the video that ECM's cant predict the future when in fact to some degree they do, more so they expect to see something in the future (hence the gap). Remember the processing speed of these things is micro seconds ! Back to the point though. What you presented in this video, and again the way you did it was outstanding was to break down how the ECM interprets the actual crank position in anticipation for the number one cylinder position. It doesn't actually know what stroke it is on, The cam sensor is responsible for that. What really matters though is which tooth on the reluctor is responsible for top dead centre on number one cylinder and that comes down to the 15th tooth after the gap. thats the tooth that aligns with number one cylinder and thats the tooth you would use to set up your crank trigger on the trailing edge of that tooth. Go to your video at 5:35 and you will clearly see that the trailing edge is aligned with the centre of the hole for the sensor at TDC number 1 cyl. Voltage from the sensor drops when it passes this point and the ECM computes at that point. Now why would anyone use that tooth instead of the gap when retro fitting this reluctor to another engine make. Firstly its much easier to align an edge but secondly you can accurately udjust the sensor to be fixed in the correct position by powering up the sensor and adjusting it to be in the correct position when the voltage drops. Its much like syncing magnetos on a top fueller. You cant do this with the gap because there is no rise in voltage over a gap so there is no fall and no place to adjust the sensor to acurately. Can you honestly look at a sensor and say exactly where on the sensor the voltage will rise and fall / You can't, so you need a tooth. As for my comment regarding the 4th and 8th cylinder in the firing order I simply meant you can set TDC of either of those if you tried to do it the way you presented because they are both at TDC on the gap where a 60th tooth would be if it had one I hope this clarifies my comment to you. Hats off to you. You did a great job in working out how it all happens. Regards, James
I appreciate your comments and welcome informed discussions on my videos. You’ve presented a lot of technical information and I’ll have to take some time to digest it. In general I prefer that when a viewer disputes my information they come back with hard evidence (like a GM document that would exactly spell out how the trigger is positioned) otherwise it will be a discussion of opinions and not facts. I’m guilty of making assumptions based on experience and common sense and have been wrong. If you have more to add please do.
@@moccasinmarine Thanks for your reply. Firstly your not wrong in your findings. You are spot on with the workings of it all. As far as finding some sort of document I think that would be a challenge in itself as an indexing tool is used by GM to fit the wheel correctly and not some sort of measuring procedure. Goodsons make a rough alternative to do this but is no good for retro fitting as there are indexing holes on the GM crank for the tool to register on. Thats the only reason I think its better to use the tooth that aligns with number 1 TDC.
Ok, so now I'm very confused! I'm in process of making a gen 3 6.0 into gen 4 compatible 6.0. going to swap reluctor wheel and cam gear obviously, do I need to be doing what you are doing in this video? I still haven't taken the timing gear off the crank and won't be, so that dot on gear should line up with dot on cam gear and if I've marked the reluctor wheel properly ( going to make a few marks before I pull 24x off and double and triple check alignment and make marks in 58x wheel before I remove and replace) should be no issues with crank cam timing correct? I think I'm way over thinking all this but want to do more research than needed rather than do it wrong and engine doesn't fire and I get to do it all over again.
Watch the video starting at 11:32. If you have an LS engine (doesn’t matter what year) this video does not apply to you. I am explaining how to index an LS trigger wheel to any other engine, not LS engines. You need to watch my other video on how to swap trigger wheels. That video is here: ua-cam.com/video/FVoAmnB9zEo/v-deo.html If you follow this video and it all makes sense to you then you’ll be fine. The ignition timing is solely determined by the crankshaft sensor with “help” from the cam sensor. To understand what that help is watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/0gFkf_8LV8w/v-deo.html Finally since I just recently installed a Gen 3 6.0 in a 2009 GMC that came with a Gen 4 5.3, you should watch this playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PL6wJJenh5G95bYoJlZ2Q1Pi29BB5mtb7A.html
@@moccasinmarine I have seen them all and doing same thing, same parts (plus a few other parts) . Your videos have helped alot! I'm a lifelong mechanic, but LS motor swaps are new to me, especially the interchangeability of gen parts. I like to do enough research that I'm very confident with the project I'm working on. I'm down to block rite now and about to start cleaning and painting, going to have to take sum videos I guess of rebuild. Thank you again for your help. That last video just threw me for a loop , but makes sense since you are explaining how the reluctor works vs alignment on a current LS.
Go to 10:56 and listen to why I did this video. The purpose of the video is not to relocate the wheel after it slips. I’m showing people to how index (orient) a trigger wheel on other engines so they can use GM LS engine management systems. For example I had planned to install a trigger wheel on my AMC 360 but I sold my Jeep before I could do the project. When you install trigger wheels they have to be positioned a certain way so that the computer controls the timing. Essentially you are setting the base timing when you install the trigger wheel. In the computer program if the computer is programmed for 30 degrees timing it will only be 30 degrees if the trigger wheel is installed in one exact location. Of course the crankshaft sensor location also plays a role. Once you mount one, the other is then fixed.
Very good tool. My question is; according to the installation holes in the crank and the wheel, what is the correlation between the locator on the crank and rod journal #1, and how many degrees between crank locator pin hole to the wheel locator hole? I’m fitting a 24x to the balancer of a 454 with a 411 pcm swap to run cnp ignition.
Your application is exactly what this video was created for. However I never got around to doing the same video for a 24x wheel I.e. going from 58x to 24x. I will be doing that soon though. But to answer your current question I’ll have look at a 24x wheel this weekend to let you know.
Hello how does rod go in. I mixed up rod an there not numbers. I bought all new rods an new pistons an rings. So does my piston with the arrow point towards front on cylinder 1 3 5 with dimple on rob point to the back of engine then cylinder 2 4 7 arrow to front an dimple on rod to the front. Or is that wrong. It's a 4.3 mercruiser none balance shaft
Who put the rods on your pistons? All pistons go in with the dot or arrow on the piston pointing towards the front of the engine. On the 4.3 v6 the rods are offset resulting in three rods being installed one way on the pistons and the other three opposite. A competent machine shop will know how to orient the rods when they install them on your pistons. You just have to install the pistons with the notch facing the front. Send me an email to gmefiguy@gmail and I’ll help further.
Bro where is the 24x wheel video, did i miss it?
At 6:35 is what I should have done from the get go. I was fixated on cylinder #1 at the start but in hindsight I should have just put the gap in the CKP hole and see where the engine was located. Would have allowed me to figure this out much faster.
Hi, recently I posted a comment on this video, which by the way in my opinion is an outstanding educational video. However when I received a reply from you I felt that you may have misunderstood what I was trying to get across so I removed my comment and then considered how I wrote it. The reason I did this was because my comment was not really for you. It was for the people who where trying to follow along and understand this video. If you recall I made comment relating to the trailing edge of the tooth and I didn't need some sort of text book to come to that opinion. I, like you have been in the game of engines here in Australia for 46 yrs and am involved with all types of engine management systems, Gm ford, motec, holley, autronics just to name a few. You stated in the video that ECM's cant predict the future when in fact to some degree they do, more so they expect to see something in the future (hence the gap). Remember the processing speed of these things is micro seconds !
Back to the point though. What you presented in this video, and again the way you did it was outstanding was to break down how the ECM interprets the actual crank position in anticipation for the number one cylinder position. It doesn't actually know what stroke it is on, The cam sensor is responsible for that. What really matters though is which tooth on the reluctor is responsible for top dead centre on number one cylinder and that comes down to the 15th tooth after the gap. thats the tooth that aligns with number one cylinder and thats the tooth you would use to set up your crank trigger on the trailing edge of that tooth. Go to your video at 5:35 and you will clearly see that the trailing edge is aligned with the centre of the hole for the sensor at TDC number 1 cyl. Voltage from the sensor drops when it passes this point and the ECM computes at that point.
Now why would anyone use that tooth instead of the gap when retro fitting this reluctor to another engine make. Firstly its much easier to align an edge but secondly you can accurately udjust the sensor to be fixed in the correct position by powering up the sensor and adjusting it to be in the correct position when the voltage drops. Its much like syncing magnetos on a top fueller. You cant do this with the gap because there is no rise in voltage over a gap so there is no fall and no place to adjust the sensor to acurately. Can you honestly look at a sensor and say exactly where on the sensor the voltage will rise and fall / You can't, so you need a tooth.
As for my comment regarding the 4th and 8th cylinder in the firing order I simply meant you can set TDC of either of those if you tried to do it the way you presented because they are both at TDC on the gap where a 60th tooth would be if it had one
I hope this clarifies my comment to you.
Hats off to you. You did a great job in working out how it all happens.
Regards,
James
I appreciate your comments and welcome informed discussions on my videos. You’ve presented a lot of technical information and I’ll have to take some time to digest it. In general I prefer that when a viewer disputes my information they come back with hard evidence (like a GM document that would exactly spell out how the trigger is positioned) otherwise it will be a discussion of opinions and not facts. I’m guilty of making assumptions based on experience and common sense and have been wrong. If you have more to add please do.
@@moccasinmarine Thanks for your reply.
Firstly your not wrong in your findings. You are spot on with the workings of it all.
As far as finding some sort of document I think that would be a challenge in itself as an indexing tool is used by GM to fit the wheel correctly and not some sort of measuring procedure. Goodsons make a rough alternative to do this but is no good for retro fitting as there are indexing holes on the GM crank for the tool to register on. Thats the only reason I think its better to use the tooth that aligns with number 1 TDC.
Ok, so now I'm very confused! I'm in process of making a gen 3 6.0 into gen 4 compatible 6.0. going to swap reluctor wheel and cam gear obviously, do I need to be doing what you are doing in this video? I still haven't taken the timing gear off the crank and won't be, so that dot on gear should line up with dot on cam gear and if I've marked the reluctor wheel properly ( going to make a few marks before I pull 24x off and double and triple check alignment and make marks in 58x wheel before I remove and replace) should be no issues with crank cam timing correct? I think I'm way over thinking all this but want to do more research than needed rather than do it wrong and engine doesn't fire and I get to do it all over again.
Watch the video starting at 11:32. If you have an LS engine (doesn’t matter what year) this video does not apply to you. I am explaining how to index an LS trigger wheel to any other engine, not LS engines. You need to watch my other video on how to swap trigger wheels. That video is here:
ua-cam.com/video/FVoAmnB9zEo/v-deo.html
If you follow this video and it all makes sense to you then you’ll be fine. The ignition timing is solely determined by the crankshaft sensor with “help” from the cam sensor. To understand what that help is watch this video:
ua-cam.com/video/0gFkf_8LV8w/v-deo.html
Finally since I just recently installed a Gen 3 6.0 in a 2009 GMC that came with a Gen 4 5.3, you should watch this playlist:
ua-cam.com/play/PL6wJJenh5G95bYoJlZ2Q1Pi29BB5mtb7A.html
@@moccasinmarine I have seen them all and doing same thing, same parts (plus a few other parts) . Your videos have helped alot! I'm a lifelong mechanic, but LS motor swaps are new to me, especially the interchangeability of gen parts. I like to do enough research that I'm very confident with the project I'm working on. I'm down to block rite now and about to start cleaning and painting, going to have to take sum videos I guess of rebuild. Thank you again for your help. That last video just threw me for a loop , but makes sense since you are explaining how the reluctor works vs alignment on a current LS.
10:31 (could this guy another realization) If the reluctor wheel has slipped why can't you tap it back in place and install a set screw or tack weld 🙂
Go to 10:56 and listen to why I did this video. The purpose of the video is not to relocate the wheel after it slips. I’m showing people to how index (orient) a trigger wheel on other engines so they can use GM LS engine management systems. For example I had planned to install a trigger wheel on my AMC 360 but I sold my Jeep before I could do the project. When you install trigger wheels they have to be positioned a certain way so that the computer controls the timing. Essentially you are setting the base timing when you install the trigger wheel. In the computer program if the computer is programmed for 30 degrees timing it will only be 30 degrees if the trigger wheel is installed in one exact location.
Of course the crankshaft sensor location also plays a role. Once you mount one, the other is then fixed.
Very good tool. My question is; according to the installation holes in the crank and the wheel, what is the correlation between the locator on the crank and rod journal #1, and how many degrees between crank locator pin hole to the wheel locator hole? I’m fitting a 24x to the balancer of a 454 with a 411 pcm swap to run cnp ignition.
Your application is exactly what this video was created for. However I never got around to doing the same video for a 24x wheel I.e. going from 58x to 24x. I will be doing that soon though. But to answer your current question I’ll have look at a 24x wheel this weekend to let you know.
5.7,6.0 and 6.2 what's difference in wheel 58??
I don’t understand your question.
@@moccasinmarine i said that Gm 6.0 and 6.2 engine 58 reluctor wheel is same??
@@jamsedulalam7211yes a 58 tooth trigger wheel is the same no matter what size engine it is running
5.7 engine has a 24 X reluctor wheel ,that is the difference between the first 5.7 And a 6 liter engines
Hello how does rod go in. I mixed up rod an there not numbers. I bought all new rods an new pistons an rings. So does my piston with the arrow point towards front on cylinder 1 3 5 with dimple on rob point to the back of engine then cylinder 2 4 7 arrow to front an dimple on rod to the front. Or is that wrong. It's a 4.3 mercruiser none balance shaft
Who put the rods on your pistons? All pistons go in with the dot or arrow on the piston pointing towards the front of the engine. On the 4.3 v6 the rods are offset resulting in three rods being installed one way on the pistons and the other three opposite. A competent machine shop will know how to orient the rods when they install them on your pistons. You just have to install the pistons with the notch facing the front. Send me an email to gmefiguy@gmail and I’ll help further.
I just posted a video showing more detail about the 4.3 rod issue.
ua-cam.com/video/JFzTrqUxK0E/v-deo.html
Thanks!
Can you share your application?