Regarding the point at 01:06, that law enforcement was looking for something with better penetration _in an automatic,_ and the .38ACP was transformed into the .38 Super (by loading a higher powder charge into the same case), _and the .357 was available to provide more penetration in revolvers,_ is not _quite_ right. The .38 Super predated the .357 Magnum by about five years, and in fact the .357 was developed in response to the .38 Super. Both tests, and use by law enforcement showed that the .38 Super would indeed penetrate some of the early body armor used in that period, as well as steel car bodies, that neither the .45ACP nor the .38 Special would reliably penetrate. Smith & Wesson didn't want to cede an important part of the market to Colt and their Super .38 (in marketing literature at the time, the Super often came before the .38), so they first introduced the .38-44 revolver, which was their big N frame chambered for .38 Special, to allow people to use extremely hot .38 hand loaded ammo, or factory ammo loaded hot and labelled as .38-44 ammo, and then later, in 1935, the .357 magnum. The introduction of the .357 was probably one of two major reasons that the .38 Super never became all that popular as a cartridge. For a few years after its introduction in 1929, the .38 Super was the only game in town if you wanted a handgun with that greater penetration (except for the broomhandle Mauser, which wasn't exactly a strong contender for use by US law enforcement), but it was a semi-auto in an era when law enforcement _overwhelmingly_ preferred revolvers. Then along came the .38-44, and then .357 Magnum, and now law enforcement could have the superior penetration in the type of handgun they almost always preferred. The second reason was that the .38 Super developed a reputation as being a rather inaccurate cartridge, which was a problem that wasn't solved until the 1980s, when Colt changed from headspacing on the rim (it's a semi-rimmed cartridge) to headspacing on the case mouth like virtually every other automatic pistol cartridge. That cured the accuracy problems in time for the cartridge's second wave of popularity, with competition shooters, but the problem had persisted up until then, and probably had done much to keep it from catching on with law enforcement once revolvers powerful enough to meet their needs were available.
I'd read books in the 60s about some lawmen using .38 Super against the 20s and 30s gangsters and the references resurfaced in some of the popular magazines from time to time in the 90s. I finally gave up mentioning it about a year ago after being laughed at as a dumb boomer. I didn't even see the point in looking it up, some people won't listen no matter what. *Thank you* for putting this full, clarifying history out there, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
They've also introduced .38 Super Comp brass which eliminates the feeding problems the semi-rimmed case could cause (The rim is trimmed down to a rimless profile). The plus side to the semi-rimmed case was that you could use the round in a revolver without moon clips. Target shooters also liked the round because you could use readily available 38 semi-wadcutter bullets.
I find amusing the change of philosophy in the matter. The Super .38 (vice .38 auto) was developed to penetrate car bodies. In the late 1920s and early '30s. Since about 1980 (not a precise date, but a change over a decade or so) almost all law enforcement agencies have seriously frowned on - if not outright banned - the practice of shooting at a villain's automobile moving or not. A very similar story applies to the now defunct .38 (Special) "Super Police" load. Didn't do well penetrating cars or barriers. So what?
As stated by some already, the 38 Super had/has a market space in Mexico due to its classification as a non-military cartridge. Mexican Citizens may own non military handgun calibers for self defense. .380 ACP and .38 Super are popular in Mexico for that reason. Steve and Caleb are a great team on You Tube! Keep it up!
They changed the law civilians can no longer own a handgun in anything bigger than .380 unless you have access to a corrupt government official who will make an exception for you
ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG AVERAGE MEXICAN CITIZEN CANT LEGALLY OWN 9 MM/45 ACP/38 SUPER/10 MM ONLY .380 AND 9 MM MAKAROV.......AND I SEE ALL REPEAT THE SAME IS ONLY ONE GUN STORE FOR WHOLE MEXICO! LET ME EXPLAIN YOU! THIS IS ACTUALLY 2 GUN STORES WHERE YOU CAN BUY GUNS(OWN BY THE GOV AND RUN BY THE ARMY)ONE IN MEXICO CITY AND THE SECOND IN MONTERREY THERE YOU CAN BUY A GUN OR BULLETS.........FOR BUYING BULLETS EXAMPLE I LIVE IN TIJUANA I BUY IN A STORE(ONLY FOR THE WHOLE CITY THAT IS A PRIVATE OWN)I PAY 175 AMERICAN DOLLARS FOR 500 BULLETS OF 22 LR. ......I ASK FOR BOX OF 5O BULLETS FOR A 380 THAT I OWN THE PRICE WAS 90 BUCKS.....YES 90 DOLLARS... SO PLEASE STOP SAYING WAS ONLY ONE STORE FOR BUYING BULLETS.....BECAUSE THAT IS NOT TRUE..... IN MEXICO CITY IS LIKE 8/9 STORES TO BUY BULLETS.....
@@GOCHELIN 1st of all stop typing in all caps. 2nd nobody here said that the only place to buy bullets in the gun shop in Mexico City. 3rd I lived in Mexico from 1998-2008. When I lived in Mexico the only store to buy a gun at was in Mexico City. If they opened up a second gun shop it's a good thing. As far as handguns go they did change the law and now the largest caliber a civilian can own is .380acp. 4th take a chill pill. Just because you're on the internet doesn't mean you have to act like a jerk. You wouldn't act like that in real life. An attitude like the one you displayed here will get you hurt or worse in Mexico. I know because I lived there.
To quote Stephen Hunter, the Super .38 “Has personality, pizzazz and vividness.” And according to the original ads by Colt, “It’s a real He-man gun!” What’s not to love about it?
I reload all calibers and consider the .38 Super a stout cartridge. I only use 130 Grain bullets because I believe that the cartridge was originally designed with that bullet and that the ogive is unique. The .38 Super was fitted in the 1911 and that a man cannot own enough 1911's so thumbs up on the .38 Super!
Someone once told me the most accurate handgun they had ever shot was a 1911 in .38 Super. It is one of the few cartridges I do not have that is on my to buy list. I recently acquired a quality .38 Super barrel for a 1911 that I plan to build.
Back in the 70's and early 80's My dad liked the 38 super for bowling pin competition. He passed way back in 1986. He was an avid fan of the 38 super. He's the on that got me interested in reloading.
I shot 38 super auto in competition for a few years. Shoots very flat and I believed had lower recoil than 45 ACP. But I competed with a lot more 45 ACP because reloading was cheaper and I did not have dies for 38 super. Back when tire stores would give away lead wheel weights we could cast our own.
38 Super, at least in my pistol, is less sensitive about overall length than are many 9mm pistols. 38 Super also has the ability to be loaded to 357 magnum pressures whereas the 9mm is not made for that. 38 Super is very versatile. Also, cool kids shoot supers.
When I showed my buddy what kind of penetration you can get with modern loads with the 38.super he now wants a 38.super plus I love my 70 year old colt 1911 chambered in 38 super
I love both, but the 38 super is my favorite. The only thing that holds it back is factory ammunition choices. A few manufacturers out there load the Barnes solid copper hollowpoints in the 38 super and that turns it into one of the best choices available.
No, what holds .38Super back is that it falls into the performance range of three more popular rounds (9mmP, .45ACP and .40S&W), and is left behind by 10mm Auto, all of which are readily available on a number of handgun platforms. As Jimmy Buffett sang "occupational hazard means my occupation's just not around." .38Super doesn't have a job that isn't done by the other calibers.
@@brianmoore1164 It's not that, it's simple logistics. A military or cop shop doesn't want to have to stock a bunch of different calibers. As an example, the LA County Sheriffs Dept only issued.38 Special for revolvers, or .45ACP just for use with the Thompson. A deputy qualified to carry the .357 or 1911A1 had to buy their own ammo. Since the drivers for most carry-handgun choices are law enforcement and military buyers, that pretty much put the .38Super to the curb.
@SoloPilot6 You're right that the world is full of followers. So happy I am not one of them. Apparently choice has a pretty big following. There is a very large number of choices even if you just look from 30 to 40 caliber. Federal just released another one. Seems like there might be room in the market after all.
@@brianmoore1164 The only way to know if there is room in the market is to see what's on the market in 25 years. Since .38 Super has been around a lot long than that, there was obviously room.
One key factor is that the 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are both the same overall length as 45 ACP, making them better suited for reliability in a 1911 platform compared to the shorter 9mm Luger. The magazines and breech are the right size for those cartridges. I’m not saying you can’t make 9mm Luger work in a 1911 - I have one - but the longer cartridges just make more sense. Another thing Steve doesn’t mention is that both 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester allow more rounds compared to 45 ACP in a given magazine length. Typically the increase is 2 cartridges. A 1911 CCO (small Officers frame with 4-4.25” barrel) makes a fine weapon for concealed carry and 8 rounds in the magazine isn’t bad.
From a reloader’s perspective, I prefer the .38 super, but I do still like 9mm too. Similar components, and yes the .38 super is quite a bit more powerful if you want it to be. It’ll perform with the 357 Sig if you’re so inclined. I think it really suffers from underperforming factory ammunition. If you have a decent supply of .38 super brass, and gather it up after shooting, like a lot of reloaders do, it’s about the same cost per shot as 9mm, but more versatile. You can reload and shoot a lot of .38 super for what people are spending on factory 9mm ammunition these days. 9mm isn’t as cool as it used to be in that regard.
@@ryanranard5187 no they’re not. 9mm really falls on its face the heavier you go in bullet weight even to the point that it’s tough to get 9mm +p to push 147’s to 1000 fps. When comparing 124’s, 1400+ fps is attainable with 38 super using published load data. 1500 is attainable with 115’s using published load data. That’s not happening with 9mm without overloading it pretty substantially.
@@ReeveHelalVMaybe out of a 5” barrel it can. 9mm +p+ can do that out of a 5” barrel too with brands like Underwood, Buffalobore, etc. Out of a 4” barrel you can get 147gr 9mm to 1175fps.
@@ryanranard5187 you just helped prove my point. You have to push 9mm to +p+ levels, that means past it’s rated pressure ceiling to equal standard 38 super performance. It’s pretty simple, you’ve got more powder capacity in a 38 super, it will shoot 150-200 fps faster than a 9mm with comparable bullet weights when loaded to comparable pressures. Which puts the 38 super approximately 150 fps behind 357 magnum.
@@TheColdphishexcept 38 Super serves no purpose today. 9mm +P or +P+ will do anything 38 Super well; that's before you even consider 9mm Major. It's certainly not a "Ferrari"...
@@chrisferguson1911 who cares?! What purpose does that serve? None. It serves zero purpose. 38 Super use to have a purpose, but now, it does not. For all "duty" style situations, modern 9mm will work perfectly fine whether it's standard pressure or +P, and for competition trying to run major power factor, 9mm major will do that for less effort and expense. If you're hunting with 38 super, you're doing something wrong.
Yes sir!! They seemed to downplay the 38 super in this video which I didn't like because besides the availability and options in type of firearms 38 super loaded to proper standards is waaaay superior to 9mm
Veterans of the KOREAN WAR preferred the SUPER.38 over the .45 ACP because the .38 SUPER SHOT FLATTER at Long Ranges WITHOUT much SIGHT DEVIATION and PENETRATED THE CHINESE " BODY ARMOR "
Wouldn't it be more correct to compare 2 custom loaded rounds? Also, what is significant to you, may not be to others. For instance I would consider significant being..25-30% more kinetic energy.
I loved shooting 38 supercomp in uspsa matches with my open gun. i didn't love losing my brass. $$! shooting Major with that 38 super/supercomp was awesome.
I sho t the 1911 in 45 ACP when I was in the Navy. Loved the feel of the gun in my hand but hated the recoil. Recently bought a 1911 in 38 Super in spite of the ammo costs and availability issues.
Very insightful. We have heard the 45 vs 9mm debate for years. The old 45 was the way to go when your adversary was half naked with a spear. Blunt force stopped the fight. But in body armor, behind a car door then penetration was the deciding factor. The 9mm we have today is not the same 9mm of 1901. It too has evolved like the 38 colt into 38 super. A bit more zip and much more effective bullets.
I carry a 38 Super. The thing with 38 Super is that most factory ammo leave a lot on the table. If you handload, there is a lot of additional performance that you can get that you won't typically find in a factory load. For example, my carry load is a 124 gr hp at 1325 fps. Also, once you do make the commitment to handload, you can shoot the 38 Super for about the same cost as the 9mm. The only downside there is you do try to recover all your 38 Super brass or as much of it as you can.
Steve, I too am a .38 super carrier and yes, I absolutely love the cartridge; I have it paired up with a 70 series Colt Combat Commander (4 inch Bbl. & steel frame version) that I have souped up a bit. I put the Wilson Combat guide rod into it. The long guide rod with the extra spring milled into the guide rod, which makes it a flatter shooting pistol with way less muzzle flip. At least in my mind it shoots better. I also have the Colt Pocket Hammer of 1904 which takes the .38 auto/.38 acp round. I do not know why but it is a laser beam in my hand; at least out to 10 yards. It is almost like I could not miss even if I wanted to. As long as I am real, real careful about which pistol gets which cartridge, I have more fun with these two pistols than just about any of the pistols I own. I lean more to the older military style auto pistols from 1904/05 (the 1905 Mannlicher in 7.65 Mannlicher, the 1904 Colt Pocket Hammer in .38 auto, and a pair of 1914 Steyr Hammers with replacement Bbls to fire 9mm Luger, 9mm Steyr, 9 x 21 IMI and .30 Luger){Yes, Steyr still makes barrels to fit this pistol, they call it their "Classic" pistol and they produce barrels in 4 calibers for it and the barrels come in 5 inch as well as 6 inch versions, with two rifling profiles. One profile for 'ball' ammo and a second profile for cast lead projectiles} up to the mid 1950's as they just seem to have more character than the modern pistols or revolvers that I own.
My 38 Super is in my seasonal rotation. Rock Island Armory compact 45 (3 inch barrel)for the summer because it's easiest to conceal, Kimber Compact Stainless 40 (4 inch barrel) for fall and spring, and my Colt Government Model 38 Super for in the winter. It seems like it shoots better the hotter I load it. I've had a couple over the years and they each seemed a bit different. My first one didn't stay accurate above ~1275 fps. My current one I haven't seen a loss in accuracy regardless of how hot it's loaded. Seems like the newer ones like hotter ammo. I have a 460 Rowland kit I plan on putting in my full size Kimber for a woods gun.
Great show you boys put on I really appreciate it, but I have to go along with some of the other reloaders. I've been doing this for many decades and so I can talk from experience 9 mm in world war II was a powerhouse, different powder, different guns, very good cartridge, we don't have those components today. The 9 mm of today is a squirt gun. 38 super is basically a 357 semi-automatic and Just smokes hell out of everything else. Enough said. Thank you again this is my opinion.
Good video, none of the caliber hyperbole so often found. One important note, a very slight "advantage" of the .38 Super is that firearms that shoot the .38 Super were designed from the get-go to handle those pressures, 130gr (ish) at 1215fps or slightly higher. Not every 9mm handgun (i.e. budget or older) was meant to or just can't reliably handle a steady diet of +P loads. Still, 9MM is much less expensive, more available, and if you're satisfied with adequate it's your caliber. One note, .357 Sig ammo is generally also less expensive and more available than .38 Super. Though a pain to reload.
I have changed barrels in a 1911 between 38 Super and 9mm. Worked just fine. Some people have reported needing to change the extractor, but I never had any feeding or failures to exctract/eject with the pistols I made this change to. You will also probably need to change magazines.
This is true that's what's wrong with a lot of the first 40 cal pistols that came out they were originally designed to be 9 mm parabellum and the 40 caliber just beat them to death.
Ok, I should probably keep this to myself, but not many guys will read this! During the worst of the ammo drought over the past couple of years, at times I couldn’t find 9x19 or .38 Special. But, I was always able to find .38 Super on line somewhere, and the prices for it remained about the same as in “normal times”. It’s my supplemental 9mm for ammo shortages. Also ,in a 1911 it ‘s just pure fun at the range. My Dan Wesson .38 Super is amazingly accurate as well. One of my favorite calibers.
Honestly, I don't think the .38 Super's velocity edge makes much difference in comparison to the 9s, but I love my .38 Super and the accuracy is incredible.
Great video. Thank you. Until recently I had no knowledge of the .38 super. My favorite pistol is the 1911 in 45acp and I own a few of them. I don’t particularly like the 9mm but my edc is a Springfield Hellcat in 9 mm because it’s practical to carry. But now I’m about to purchase another 1911 , this time a Colt , and decided I want it in .38 Super. I am very excited about the .38 Super! Wow , how sweet would it be to be able to get an Hellcat in .38 Super . I often wonder why people just follow trends and ignore fascinating possibilities. My favorite rimfire is another example. The 17M2 . An excellent top notch rimfire that just gets ignored . Oh well…I know I’m going to love my new Colt competition series 70 1911 stainless in the ultra cool .38 Super !
I loaded 140 gr with a gas check Bach in the olden days. I cast my own works great and gun has served me over 50 years. I put Bomar sights on the gun and have replaced the firing pin 40 yrs ago. Trigger is 2.5-3 lbs.I welded a bead 3/8” back from muzzle polished the inside of the bushing then turned bead down till it fits snuggly no rattle. Crimped the slide on the frame used rubbing compound to fit the slide and frame. Gun shoots under 1.5” at 25 yards when using a rest..
The performance should be much better with the Super, but the ammo companies have loaded down their products because they're afraid some dufus will shoot it in an older 38 Colt Auto gun. By handloading, the Super can easily match .357 Mag performance. That can't be done with a 9mm, safely.
Love the 38 Super I recently built a Commander size gun in 38 super Caspian slide and frame bar-sto barrel, when I was done almost didn't want to give it to the customer
The big differences are simple. 0.357" vs 0.355" diameter bullets. The 38 Super will have a 200 ft/sec speed advantage over the 9 mm if using the same bullets. I personally like the 158 grain .357" XTP bullets for 38 Super loads. The only negative of the 38 Super that I can see is that it has a small rim. This is easy to fix though by using 38 Super Auto Comp brass from Starline. I would seriously love to watch a video of someone try an get a 9 mm to out perform the 38 Super with a 160 grain 0.355" bullet. You could probably only safely do this with a CMMG Banshee 9 mm. I am convinced that the 38 Super became an obscure cartridge only because the US Army did not adopt it. The 38 Super is a native cartridge to the 1911.
Do you run the Super Auto Comp brass from Starline? I'm really getting interested in acquiring a 1911 in 38 Super but the thought of running a rimmed cartridge (or in this case "semi rimmed") leaves me wondering about reliability issues in an autoloader pistol).
The difference in 9mm vs 38 super is the same difference that's between 38 special and 357 magnum....1/8" in cartridge length which allows for more powder and 150 fps more velocity with same weight bullet. And just like the 38 special/357 magnum the 9mm and 38 super both use the same bullet when being reloaded even though some people think you have to use .356 for 38 super (that's BS) and those of us who have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds down the pipe of double stack 1911/2011 racegun in competition can tell you it's an accurate and reliable round. PERIOD.
I have factory loads in 38 Super that run about 540 FTLBS . It is a superior caliber to the 9 mm. I have read that many shoot 9x23 Winchesters through their Supers as well, as the cartridge was designed for such. The 38 Super is really a like a 9 MM magnum. If they renamed it that, it would sell like hot cakes. The 1911 and 38 super is a perfect combination. My daughters, from 11 to 15, liked shooting it the most of all of my pistols. I have some very nice 9s due to cost, availability., model offerings, and so forth, but the cartridge cannot really compare to a 38 Super loaded to its full potential. The 9 was around when Colt brought out the Super. It’s not really even in the same league. The current +P+ 9 mm seeks to perform like a caliber it isn’t. The Super takes these power levels with aplomb. I carried a BHP for many years, and took much grief from many, as back then, a real caliber, had to start with a 4…., but I loved that pistol, and of course, they were wrong, as most of those same critics, gun writers included, now carry 9s. The 9 is indeed the most practical for most self defense applications, but it lacks the tremendous history, being carried by both mobsters and FBI agents during that interesting and tumultuous era in American history. And, it also lacks the potential. If they wanted to introduce a caliber that would sell, they should have just reintroduced the 38 Super and called it the 9 mm Super Magnum instead of the 30 Super. The 38 Super will come back, because it is a wonderful combination of power. Performance. and shoot ability. Thanks for the video.
Definitely a 38 super if I'm looking for a 1911 platform competition and or Target gun. Especially with handloads. However if I was going to do that I would look into the 357 sig first again you've got a high pressure fast shooting around roughly the same way projectiles and your shooting much faster and flatter
After using a Glock 17 9mm Pb for 20 years, qot a steel Tangfoglio P23 in 38 Super and have no regrets, it has been in my side also for 20 years. Always used 125 gr Silvertips in both, and the 38 Super is more accurate, lighter recoiling. Weight is not a issue with a propper leather OWB holster. For backup or suumer days a 38 Special 5 shot steel revolver is my option.
Some people commenting on here are saying the 38 Super is ''waaay superior'', to 9mm. It isn't. Any cartridge can be loaded to extremes. Off the shelf stuff, which is what 99% of us shoot, will only be a hundred or so feet apart in velocity. The 38 Super cartridge is slightly more powerful than the nine.
Tanfoglio makes CZ 75 style pistols chambered in 38 super. You can get 21 rounds in an extended magazine with a ton of muzzle energy in each round. More than 9mm can produce. Factory ammo is tuned down but there's space in the cartridge itself to get way more power if you load it right.
I have always been a fan of the 38 Super, right now I have a Rock Island 1911 38 Super I have had for sometime now. I load for mine so I don't have to pay the high cost for factory and I can load up or down depending what I want at the time. I fitted a Rock Island 9mm barrel in mine, uses the same magazines, Rock Island marks some of their mags for 9mm/38 Super, but even my Metalform 38 Super mags run 9mm flawlessly. It's a great cartridge but then so is the 9mm.
I have a 38 super. Bought many years ago. Was going to to build it into a comp gun but never got around to it. Buildup my 45 comp ended up costing way more than I expected
Both calibers were designed in an age every brand of firearms had its own caliber. It was the same time that 9mm Bergamann, 9mm Steyer, 9mm Browning Long, etc were design. There were not standaritation of calibers, every brand of pistol had its own 9mm or 38 caliber.
There is a big difference between these 2 rounds. The 38 super will do over 1300fps with a 130 gr bullet. And the 357 was not available in the late 1920s. I’ve been shooting 38 super for more than 50 years. In car penetration test the 130 gr 38 super will beat the 158 gr 357 mag. And you will never get a 9mm with a 124gr bullet to 1300 fps and keep the gun together for any length of time.
I would take .38 Super any day of the week too, but I know I saw an add in an NRA mag in 2018 advertising a 9mm 125gn bullet at 1400fps(?). I had to blink a couple times to make sure I wasn't hallucinating it.
Several well known lawmen chose the .38 Super as part of their arsenal of carry. I swapped to .38 Super Comp and my Colt pistol runs like a dream. Without beating up the pistol, it is flatter shooting and easily a threat to steel target at 100-yds +. Thanks for the vid.
Thanks for another interesting video. I also think that if someone is looking at the 1911 platform but interested in something more similar to .357 mag, the 10mm fits the bill a little better. But .38 super is still a really neat cartridge.
38super is a sweetheart. I have had some problems here and there with extraction on accounts of the semi rim. Some manufacturers I think are just using 9mm extractors in their 38s and it leads to these kinds of issues. Did some handloads with some supercomp and didnt have any better results with extraction, which was a head scratcher. Did some tuning and nada. Put it away in the safe for a couple years, took it out and it ran every mag without a problem with factory ammo 😑
Though I don't own a "super" the ctg has always intrigued me, I like the more obscure but worthy ctgs, such as the super, the 357 sig, the various 32 magnum pistol rounds... I think that the 9mm is over rated, because all the bullet advancements can also be applied to the other rounds. 9 has won out because of magazine capacity specifically double stack mags and our obsession with more. If we were in the single stack days, which would win out? My guess is those more powerful ctgs would win over the "wonder 9" which is adequate for self defense, but on the lower end compared to other rounds, if you were limited to single stack.
I definitely agree 9mm more practical for new gun owners. In relation to 38 super….Same can be said for .357 Sig. However, I have a LW change out barrel for Glock .40 which makes the sig more practical for me. As a side note, I switched back .40 during pandemic as 9mm became scarce
124 @ 1375 to 1425 and 147s at 1200 is why I prefer super. I get no capacity difference and can reload the two for the same cost while getting a performance increase in Super over 9mm in the same gun. It’s also a classy nostalgic cartridge with a cool history. In comparable sized guns I can get 357 magnum performance in a 1911 with 10+1 with faster reloads.
Just to throw a monkey wrench, I am a 45 Super fan. A upgrade from 45 Auto. Similar history, albeit much more recent than the 38 Super growth from the 38 Auto. Nice video.
I’ve never tried it, but it seems like an interesting cartridge. It’d be cool if Sig came up with some parts to convert a P365 to shoot 38 Super, have the best of both worlds without buying a new gun.
In Mexico the colt 38 auto was iconic during the revolution a lot of them were sold there, I believe because it was flatter shooting than the .45 was the reason that people preferred it, to this day with mexican peoples it has somewhat of a cult status. They are even mentioned in traditional songs.
i bought a .38 Super slide/barrel/mags for my (originally) 10 mm Witness, because I've wanted a .38 Super for forty years. I already had the large grip (for 10 mm and .45 ACP), and the .38 Super gets more rounds in the double stack magazine. I've been meaning to get a 9 mm barrel as well -- that would let me shoot .45, 10 mm, .40 S&W (with just a barrel change), .38 Super, and 9 mm (another barrel-only change -- my gun, at least, happily feeds the shorter .40 round from the 10 mm magazine, so ought to do the same for 9 mm), all on the same frame. That would let me practice with the cheaper, easier to find 9 mm ammo, and keep .38 Super in the mags when I'm not at the range -- just as I can practice with .40, and load up full power 10 mm for "just in case." Now if I could only get a .357 Sig barrel to fit. Maybe I need to get a reamer and a spare .38 Super barrel...
Most factory .38 super us loaded light in deference of the old double link Colts. The .38 is more capable and more comparable to .357 Sig in full power loadings. Also the Super runs heavy projectiles mutch better
Add to this mix the 357 (really a .355 diameter round) Sig, which may provided (for certain projectile weights) even greater muzzle velocity than does the .38 Super.
I have and shoot both, I enjoy .357Sig much more, both are highly effective. The .357Sig commercial loads are considerably hotter than the .38 Super. Most of the Sig loads run about 1350fps and the Super loads run around 1200ish. However .357 Sig requires much more care if you load your own. Commercial .357Sig is less expensive (by far, in my market) and more available than .38 Super.
a composite rimless case with a steel head like the 277 sig furry in 38 super that can be loaded around 45k to 50k psi would be an awesome round. The 9x23 operated at 55k psi and pushed a 125gr bullet at 15000fps from a 4 inch barrel. Im mostly interested in schp for defense but they are really long so something that i can load up to 10mm length would make up for the velocity lost in these bullets while offering 9mm recoil. In my opinion schp are the best and most consistent bullet type for handguns but their flaw is that they can be pushed as hard.
I accidentally bought .38 Super ammo thinking it would work for my .38 Special revolver, so I ended up buying the Rock Island .38 Super 1911 model and I love it!
357 Magnum is to 38 SPL in the same way 38 Super is to 9mm. 38 Super is just a little bit more powerful than 9mm even if you push them both to extremes.
It sucks that I can find 38 Super ammo on occasion at my local Sportsman Warehouse and yet never see any 38 Super 1911s for sale. I did asked one time about ordering one and they said, it could take up to a year, or never, to get one in for you.
I recently picked up a 1911 in 38 super for carrying while hunting and hiking, I was able to load the 147gr Hornady xtp to 1200fps, impressive. Everyone's got a 9mm, hardly anyone has a 38super which is pretty cool. Not going to stop carrying my glock 19 for edc in urban areas but variety is the spice of life! btw like others have commented the trajectory of the 38super is great compared to the 45acp
Love both my 9 and 38, everyday carry a shield plus but have a Ria m1911 38 super in polished nickel, custom grips and a few gold, nickel and rose 15 rd extended mags, definetley a project pistol then anything.
I’ve owned 9MM pistols for most of the last 35 years. I’ve also had .38 Specials and a .357 magnum. Last year I came across a Rock Island m1911, with a nickel finish, in .38 Super Auto. It was just too nice to pass up, though it was a little pricey.
People tend to forget that the .38 Super is but a return to the original .38ACP load. The original .38ACP was quite hot, and was only loaded down because the Colt 1900 and 1902 kept breaking their locking lugs and links. The 1911 was much stronger and thus can handle the original hot .38ACP wrong. The gun itself was named the Super .38 Automatic. The .38Super cartridge name didn’t even come about until the early 1970s when SAAMI decided to make a true separation between the .38ACP and ..38Super.
Nominal loadings for 9mm deliver approx. 340 ft-lbs, nominal .38 super loadings, 500 ft-lbs. Be aware when buying 38sup for your firearm that certain brands, (Winchester, Blazer, others), may not have enough energy to operate the pistol. Using a recoil spring from a 9mm handgun may allow use of underloaded ammo. Look for 400 ft-lbs and up. I can't recommend it, but a really unique experience is shooting .380acp in a full-size, steel-frame .38sup handgun. (No, it won't break the firing pin because dry firing it doesn't break it. It just won't cycle.)
I do not know what gun designer did it first, but there are lot of european pistols that were chambered in a series of almost identical cartridges to the .38 automatic, with the exception of the rim. The 38 ACP is semi rimmed. The Austrians used 9×23mm Steyr and the spanish the 9×23mm Largo (9mm Largo, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9mm Bayard Long. I have fired both the 9mm steyr, 38 ACP, and 9mm largo in an Astra 400 pistol that I use to have. Firing the 38 super is not a good idea in it. In another spanish pistol with a few strokes of a file it handled 38ACP and 38 super and without stronger springs I would stick with the 38 ACP for shooting. This was a recoil operated gun unlike the blow back Astra 400. If one needs bass for the spanish guns, 38 ACP with the semi rim reduced will function.
loquat44-40, Good to see another individual that has gone into the .38 cal/9mm world like I have. I have a Star Super from the mid 1930's that takes the 9 Largo as well as the 9 Bergman-Bayard (when I can find this caliber). I have a pair of M1914 Steyr Hammers that I have managed to get 4 different replacement barrels from Steyr to fit them. Steyr calls them their 'Classic' model and have 4 caliber offerings (9 x 19 Luger, 9 x 23 Steyr, 9 x 21 IMI and .30 caliber Luger) with 2 barrel lengths (5 inch and 6 inch) and they also offer 2 rifling profiles for these barrels; one profile for 'ball' ammo and one profile for 'cast lead' ammo. They were a bit pricey ( approx $280.00 USD plus S.&H. each) but I was flabbergasted that Steyr still supported this model of pistol. Just goes to show how stout this particular frame design is. Too bad the 'trigger pull' is totally atrocious, with little than can be done to clean up and smooth out the trigger weight and pull. Other than trigger pull the two pistols are a total blast to take to the range. When other people see them, they are left with their 'jaws' hanging open when I show them how easy it is to change from one caliber to the next. My favorite caliber to fire through both of these pistols is the .30 Luger. It just seems to be a smoother shooting handgun in the .30 Luger (not to mention that .30 Luger is much, much easier to find and not nearly as expensive as the 9 x 23 Steyr or 9 x 21 IMI cartridges) (my least favorite is the 9 x 19 as I find it to be harsh, abrupt and not nearly as fun as the other calibers) Regards, Matt Out Of North Texas
I'd really like to get a 38 super. Not that many factory guns chambered in it anymore. Besides something really high end like a Nighthawk or a Les Bear you pretty much have Rock Island or the Colt Competition.
Same here and same for the 9x23, I can't find any guns chambered in either that are readily available, i.e. in stock. And finding the ammo would present another problem. So for relatively small improvements over a 9mm, I'll just stick with 9mm and .45ACP.
Dan Wesson makes a 38 super in the Guardian series, Kimber made a number of guns in 38 super but I think discontinued them recently. You can find them on Gunbroker still.
If you go look at the Bonnie & Clyde car, you see a bunch of through-and-through holes made by .45ACP. .357 Magnum didn't come along until after Prohibition was over. 9mmP was adopted because the Europeans never gave up the tradition of smaller calibers for rifled pistols, and the P.08 was the premier military-class pistol of the time. The US Army went to .44 only after tests done to determine what ball diameter would reliably put a Cavalry horse down, then to .45 when Colt's brought out the Single Action Army (Colt's developed the .45 to prevent people from simply boring through the cylinders of .44 percussion revolvers to use cased ammo).
One of the best shooting hand guns as far as accuracy goes that I have ever fired was a Llama 1911 in .38super. I tried to trade my Springfield 1911 .45acp and the man said no way.
Much of what is presented here is correct, but only under the current conditions of Super .38 factory rounds being universally underloaded by the commercial outlets. The old .38 ACP or .38 automatic loading fired a 130 grain FMJ bullet FASTER than the 9mm Luger fired a roughly 8.0 gram bullet by several hundred fps. The Super .38 goes faster than that, if properly loaded. The video states the 9mm Parabellum round fits in a smaller pistol, due to the case length being smaller. However, as so many 9mm Parabellum handguns are double stack magazine configuration, I find a Government Model frame easier to hold and control than a wider grip. Likely the 9mm Luger (parabellem, 9x19mm whatever) is more popular these days because the gun game types convinced everyone that 15 wild shots are better than one or two well done hits. I have a very nice 'prepared' Super .38 in the arsenal, but I really don't shoot it much these days. I prefer a Government Model in .45 ACP or one of a few revolvers.
We Mexicans are trying to keep 38super alive. Lol
Yeah bro I have 2 38 super 1 colt 1 rock island
I wanna get an M1911 in 38 super eventually
So I have several 9 mm but with my Colt 38 super it is the favorite no matter what they say the 38 super is still active
Some of us old white guys too! 👍
my uncle has a super, he’s always leaving the sporting and gun stores empty handed lol
i would like to try it someday
I’m a proud .38 Super Cultist.
Yes sir!!! 1911s and double stack 1911s, Tanfoglio/EAA, Sigs/BDA, Llamas, Star,
Right there with you!
So was Paul Harrell, he probably was onto something.
9x19 is designated a "military" caliber in places like Mexico, so you won't have a choice, depending where you live. Still, 38 super is a solid round.
The 38 super its also illegal for civilians, like the 5.7 and the 357 sig, the higher caliber for pistol are 380 acp
For those there is the 9x21 aka 9mm Italian (9mm GP) that's also rimless.
@@onpsxmember they can have 9x17 (380 acp) and 9x18 makarov, not bigger
@@molonlabe1173 correcto.
@@molonlabe1173 pero donde pueden comprar balas?
Regarding the point at 01:06, that law enforcement was looking for something with better penetration _in an automatic,_ and the .38ACP was transformed into the .38 Super (by loading a higher powder charge into the same case), _and the .357 was available to provide more penetration in revolvers,_ is not _quite_ right. The .38 Super predated the .357 Magnum by about five years, and in fact the .357 was developed in response to the .38 Super. Both tests, and use by law enforcement showed that the .38 Super would indeed penetrate some of the early body armor used in that period, as well as steel car bodies, that neither the .45ACP nor the .38 Special would reliably penetrate. Smith & Wesson didn't want to cede an important part of the market to Colt and their Super .38 (in marketing literature at the time, the Super often came before the .38), so they first introduced the .38-44 revolver, which was their big N frame chambered for .38 Special, to allow people to use extremely hot .38 hand loaded ammo, or factory ammo loaded hot and labelled as .38-44 ammo, and then later, in 1935, the .357 magnum.
The introduction of the .357 was probably one of two major reasons that the .38 Super never became all that popular as a cartridge. For a few years after its introduction in 1929, the .38 Super was the only game in town if you wanted a handgun with that greater penetration (except for the broomhandle Mauser, which wasn't exactly a strong contender for use by US law enforcement), but it was a semi-auto in an era when law enforcement _overwhelmingly_ preferred revolvers. Then along came the .38-44, and then .357 Magnum, and now law enforcement could have the superior penetration in the type of handgun they almost always preferred. The second reason was that the .38 Super developed a reputation as being a rather inaccurate cartridge, which was a problem that wasn't solved until the 1980s, when Colt changed from headspacing on the rim (it's a semi-rimmed cartridge) to headspacing on the case mouth like virtually every other automatic pistol cartridge. That cured the accuracy problems in time for the cartridge's second wave of popularity, with competition shooters, but the problem had persisted up until then, and probably had done much to keep it from catching on with law enforcement once revolvers powerful enough to meet their needs were available.
I'd read books in the 60s about some lawmen using .38 Super against the 20s and 30s gangsters and the references resurfaced in some of the popular magazines from time to time in the 90s. I finally gave up mentioning it about a year ago after being laughed at as a dumb boomer. I didn't even see the point in looking it up, some people won't listen no matter what. *Thank you* for putting this full, clarifying history out there, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
They've also introduced .38 Super Comp brass which eliminates the feeding problems the semi-rimmed case could cause (The rim is trimmed down to a rimless profile).
The plus side to the semi-rimmed case was that you could use the round in a revolver without moon clips.
Target shooters also liked the round because you could use readily available 38 semi-wadcutter bullets.
I find amusing the change of philosophy in the matter. The Super .38 (vice .38 auto) was developed to penetrate car bodies. In the late 1920s and early '30s. Since about 1980 (not a precise date, but a change over a decade or so) almost all law enforcement agencies have seriously frowned on - if not outright banned - the practice of shooting at a villain's automobile moving or not.
A very similar story applies to the now defunct .38 (Special) "Super Police" load. Didn't do well penetrating cars or barriers. So what?
@@ronreyes9910 Correct sir but I think it is mini-rimmed instead of truly rimless. A minor error I'm certain.
As stated by some already, the 38 Super had/has a market space in Mexico due to its classification as a non-military cartridge. Mexican Citizens may own non military handgun calibers for self defense. .380 ACP and .38 Super are popular in Mexico for that reason. Steve and Caleb are a great team on You Tube! Keep it up!
They changed the law civilians can no longer own a handgun in anything bigger than .380 unless you have access to a corrupt government official who will make an exception for you
Problem is there's only one gun store lol.
@@jaobyeden4143 and it's on a military base
ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG AVERAGE MEXICAN CITIZEN CANT LEGALLY OWN 9 MM/45 ACP/38 SUPER/10 MM ONLY .380 AND 9 MM MAKAROV.......AND I SEE ALL REPEAT THE SAME IS ONLY ONE GUN STORE FOR WHOLE MEXICO! LET ME EXPLAIN YOU! THIS IS ACTUALLY 2 GUN STORES WHERE YOU CAN BUY GUNS(OWN BY THE GOV AND RUN BY THE ARMY)ONE IN MEXICO CITY AND THE SECOND IN MONTERREY THERE YOU CAN BUY A GUN OR BULLETS.........FOR BUYING BULLETS EXAMPLE I LIVE IN TIJUANA I BUY IN A STORE(ONLY FOR THE WHOLE CITY THAT IS A PRIVATE OWN)I PAY 175 AMERICAN DOLLARS FOR 500 BULLETS OF 22 LR. ......I ASK FOR BOX OF 5O BULLETS FOR A 380 THAT I OWN THE PRICE WAS 90 BUCKS.....YES 90 DOLLARS... SO PLEASE STOP SAYING WAS ONLY ONE STORE FOR BUYING BULLETS.....BECAUSE THAT IS NOT TRUE..... IN MEXICO CITY IS LIKE 8/9 STORES TO BUY BULLETS.....
@@GOCHELIN 1st of all stop typing in all caps. 2nd nobody here said that the only place to buy bullets in the gun shop in Mexico City. 3rd I lived in Mexico from 1998-2008. When I lived in Mexico the only store to buy a gun at was in Mexico City. If they opened up a second gun shop it's a good thing. As far as handguns go they did change the law and now the largest caliber a civilian can own is .380acp. 4th take a chill pill. Just because you're on the internet doesn't mean you have to act like a jerk. You wouldn't act like that in real life. An attitude like the one you displayed here will get you hurt or worse in Mexico. I know because I lived there.
I’m actually picking up my 38 Super today, thought it was cool that you guys came out with this video the same day
Get some!
To quote Stephen Hunter, the Super .38 “Has personality, pizzazz and vividness.” And according to the original ads by Colt, “It’s a real He-man gun!” What’s not to love about it?
I reload all calibers and consider the .38 Super a stout cartridge. I only use 130 Grain bullets because I believe that the cartridge was originally designed with that bullet and that the ogive is unique. The .38 Super was fitted in the 1911 and that a man cannot own enough 1911's so thumbs up on the .38 Super!
The 38 super loaded "right" is an amazing round! Shot a few whitetails and did some testing on hogs and it's damage is impressive
Someone once told me the most accurate handgun they had ever shot was a 1911 in .38 Super. It is one of the few cartridges I do not have that is on my to buy list. I recently acquired a quality .38 Super barrel for a 1911 that I plan to build.
My favorite edc back in the day was a Colt Combat Commander in 38 Super. Great cartridges for as I'm concerned. Accurate and easy to control.
Own one, and fully agree.
Back in the 70's and early 80's My dad liked the 38 super for bowling pin competition. He passed way back in 1986. He was an avid fan of the 38 super. He's the on that got me interested in reloading.
I shot 38 super auto in competition for a few years. Shoots very flat and I believed had lower recoil than 45 ACP. But I competed with a lot more 45 ACP because reloading was cheaper and I did not have dies for 38 super. Back when tire stores would give away lead wheel weights we could cast our own.
38 Super, at least in my pistol, is less sensitive about overall length than are many 9mm pistols. 38 Super also has the ability to be loaded to 357 magnum pressures whereas the 9mm is not made for that. 38 Super is very versatile. Also, cool kids shoot supers.
With the bullet profile typically used in .38 Super, there's not much difference in cartridge length.
I shook my Colt lightweight commander 1911 in 38 super, from 1956.
When I showed my buddy what kind of penetration you can get with modern loads with the 38.super he now wants a 38.super plus I love my 70 year old colt 1911 chambered in 38 super
The RIA Govt model in 38 Super is a great gun, especially at the price point.
You sir have a collectors piece. Old colts chambered in 38 super go for a decent chunk of change nowadays.
@@belowpovertylineminority my grandfather was issued it when he was in the OSS
I love both, but the 38 super is my favorite. The only thing that holds it back is factory ammunition choices. A few manufacturers out there load the Barnes solid copper hollowpoints in the 38 super and that turns it into one of the best choices available.
No, what holds .38Super back is that it falls into the performance range of three more popular rounds (9mmP, .45ACP and .40S&W), and is left behind by 10mm Auto, all of which are readily available on a number of handgun platforms. As Jimmy Buffett sang "occupational hazard means my occupation's just not around." .38Super doesn't have a job that isn't done by the other calibers.
@@SoloPilot6 Ahh, because obviously we don't need more than one choice.
@@brianmoore1164 It's not that, it's simple logistics. A military or cop shop doesn't want to have to stock a bunch of different calibers. As an example, the LA County Sheriffs Dept only issued.38 Special for revolvers, or .45ACP just for use with the Thompson. A deputy qualified to carry the .357 or 1911A1 had to buy their own ammo. Since the drivers for most carry-handgun choices are law enforcement and military buyers, that pretty much put the .38Super to the curb.
@SoloPilot6 You're right that the world is full of followers. So happy I am not one of them. Apparently choice has a pretty big following. There is a very large number of choices even if you just look from 30 to 40 caliber. Federal just released another one. Seems like there might be room in the market after all.
@@brianmoore1164 The only way to know if there is room in the market is to see what's on the market in 25 years. Since .38 Super has been around a lot long than that, there was obviously room.
One key factor is that the 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are both the same overall length as 45 ACP, making them better suited for reliability in a 1911 platform compared to the shorter 9mm Luger. The magazines and breech are the right size for those cartridges. I’m not saying you can’t make 9mm Luger work in a 1911 - I have one - but the longer cartridges just make more sense.
Another thing Steve doesn’t mention is that both 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester allow more rounds compared to 45 ACP in a given magazine length. Typically the increase is 2 cartridges. A 1911 CCO (small Officers frame with 4-4.25” barrel) makes a fine weapon for concealed carry and 8 rounds in the magazine isn’t bad.
Awesome I have been waiting on the this video for years!!!!
Good coverage of the aspects of interest. Good advice also.
I just got a Girsan Influencer MC1911 in 38 Super. I love this gun! Shoots well and has a smooth trigger.
From a reloader’s perspective, I prefer the .38 super, but I do still like 9mm too. Similar components, and yes the .38 super is quite a bit more powerful if you want it to be. It’ll perform with the 357 Sig if you’re so inclined. I think it really suffers from underperforming factory ammunition. If you have a decent supply of .38 super brass, and gather it up after shooting, like a lot of reloaders do, it’s about the same cost per shot as 9mm, but more versatile. You can reload and shoot a lot of .38 super for what people are spending on factory 9mm ammunition these days. 9mm isn’t as cool as it used to be in that regard.
The Aguila brand is a mexican made, I like the 38 Super they have, in my opinion is though enough, hot round like the jalapeños 💪👌🌄🤠🇨🇷
9mm and 38 super are neck and neck when it comes to potential power of the two rounds
@@ryanranard5187 no they’re not. 9mm really falls on its face the heavier you go in bullet weight even to the point that it’s tough to get 9mm +p to push 147’s to 1000 fps. When comparing 124’s, 1400+ fps is attainable with 38 super using published load data. 1500 is attainable with 115’s using published load data. That’s not happening with 9mm without overloading it pretty substantially.
@@ReeveHelalVMaybe out of a 5” barrel it can. 9mm +p+ can do that out of a 5” barrel too with brands like Underwood, Buffalobore, etc. Out of a 4” barrel you can get 147gr 9mm to 1175fps.
@@ryanranard5187 you just helped prove my point. You have to push 9mm to +p+ levels, that means past it’s rated pressure ceiling to equal standard 38 super performance. It’s pretty simple, you’ve got more powder capacity in a 38 super, it will shoot 150-200 fps faster than a 9mm with comparable bullet weights when loaded to comparable pressures. Which puts the 38 super approximately 150 fps behind 357 magnum.
Comparing the 9mm to the 38 Super is like comparing a Camaro to a Ferrari. Both are cool, but the 38 Super is much higher performance and cooler.
You're a fanboy that's it. What you said has no base in reality whatsoever
@@MybeautifulandamazingPrincess you have no data to back your response. If you did you would have presented it
@@TheColdphishexcept 38 Super serves no purpose today. 9mm +P or +P+ will do anything 38 Super well; that's before you even consider 9mm Major. It's certainly not a "Ferrari"...
@@heyhayhay247OK, let's see 9mm do 1300 with a 147. You can add all the +'s you want, it ain't happening.
@@chrisferguson1911 who cares?! What purpose does that serve? None. It serves zero purpose. 38 Super use to have a purpose, but now, it does not. For all "duty" style situations, modern 9mm will work perfectly fine whether it's standard pressure or +P, and for competition trying to run major power factor, 9mm major will do that for less effort and expense. If you're hunting with 38 super, you're doing something wrong.
A properly loaded 38 super is significantly more powerful than a 9mm+P. Check the reloading manuals.
Yes sir!! They seemed to downplay the 38 super in this video which I didn't like because besides the availability and options in type of firearms 38 super loaded to proper standards is waaaay superior to 9mm
Veterans of the KOREAN WAR preferred the SUPER.38 over the .45 ACP because the .38 SUPER SHOT FLATTER at Long Ranges WITHOUT much SIGHT DEVIATION and PENETRATED THE CHINESE " BODY ARMOR "
Wouldn't it be more correct to compare 2 custom loaded rounds? Also, what is significant to you, may not be to others.
For instance I would consider significant being..25-30% more kinetic energy.
@@CWHolleman 9mm +p is about 400 ft lbs 38 super is like 520-550 ft lbs
As long as it's not a 38spl
I loved shooting 38 supercomp in uspsa matches with my open gun. i didn't love losing my brass. $$! shooting Major with that 38 super/supercomp was awesome.
I sho t the 1911 in 45 ACP when I was in the Navy. Loved the feel of the gun in my hand but hated the recoil. Recently bought a 1911 in 38 Super in spite of the ammo costs and availability issues.
Very insightful. We have heard the 45 vs 9mm debate for years. The old 45 was the way to go when your adversary was half naked with a spear. Blunt force stopped the fight.
But in body armor, behind a car door then penetration was the deciding factor.
The 9mm we have today is not the same 9mm of 1901. It too has evolved like the 38 colt into 38 super. A bit more zip and much more effective bullets.
The .38 Super is the one that doesn't bounce off tin cans.
Hey, now, let's be honest. The 9mm only bounces off of SOME tin cans.
I carry a 38 Super. The thing with 38 Super is that most factory ammo leave a lot on the table. If you handload, there is a lot of additional performance that you can get that you won't typically find in a factory load. For example, my carry load is a 124 gr hp at 1325 fps. Also, once you do make the commitment to handload, you can shoot the 38 Super for about the same cost as the 9mm. The only downside there is you do try to recover all your 38 Super brass or as much of it as you can.
I would consider the semi rimmed case to be the biggest drawback of 38 super.
Steve, I too am a .38 super carrier and yes, I absolutely love the cartridge; I have it paired up with a 70 series Colt Combat Commander (4 inch Bbl. & steel frame version) that I have souped up a bit. I put the Wilson Combat guide rod into it. The long guide rod with the extra spring milled into the guide rod, which makes it a flatter shooting pistol with way less muzzle flip. At least in my mind it shoots better. I also have the Colt Pocket Hammer of 1904 which takes the .38 auto/.38 acp round. I do not know why but it is a laser beam in my hand; at least out to 10 yards. It is almost like I could not miss even if I wanted to. As long as I am real, real careful about which pistol gets which cartridge, I have more fun with these two pistols than just about any of the pistols I own. I lean more to the older military style auto pistols from 1904/05 (the 1905 Mannlicher in 7.65 Mannlicher, the 1904 Colt Pocket Hammer in .38 auto, and a pair of 1914 Steyr Hammers with replacement Bbls to fire 9mm Luger, 9mm Steyr, 9 x 21 IMI and .30 Luger){Yes, Steyr still makes barrels to fit this pistol, they call it their "Classic" pistol and they produce barrels in 4 calibers for it and the barrels come in 5 inch as well as 6 inch versions, with two rifling profiles. One profile for 'ball' ammo and a second profile for cast lead projectiles} up to the mid 1950's as they just seem to have more character than the modern pistols or revolvers that I own.
38Super is a flat shooting speedster.
I’m surprised more serious shooters are basically unaware of it.
My 38 Super is in my seasonal rotation. Rock Island Armory compact 45 (3 inch barrel)for the summer because it's easiest to conceal, Kimber Compact Stainless 40 (4 inch barrel) for fall and spring, and my Colt Government Model 38 Super for in the winter. It seems like it shoots better the hotter I load it. I've had a couple over the years and they each seemed a bit different. My first one didn't stay accurate above ~1275 fps. My current one I haven't seen a loss in accuracy regardless of how hot it's loaded. Seems like the newer ones like hotter ammo. I have a 460 Rowland kit I plan on putting in my full size Kimber for a woods gun.
My dad (in Guatemala) was a big fun of the Colt 38 Super! I have a handful of 9mm pistols but not a 38 Super! I want one for the memories of my dad.
Great show you boys put on I really appreciate it, but I have to go along with some of the other reloaders. I've been doing this for many decades and so I can talk from experience 9 mm in world war II was a powerhouse, different powder, different guns, very good cartridge, we don't have those components today. The 9 mm of today is a squirt gun. 38 super is basically a 357 semi-automatic and Just smokes hell out of everything else. Enough said. Thank you again this is my opinion.
Good video, none of the caliber hyperbole so often found.
One important note, a very slight "advantage" of the .38 Super is that firearms that shoot the .38 Super were designed from the get-go to handle those pressures, 130gr (ish) at 1215fps or slightly higher. Not every 9mm handgun (i.e. budget or older) was meant to or just can't reliably handle a steady diet of +P loads.
Still, 9MM is much less expensive, more available, and if you're satisfied with adequate it's your caliber.
One note, .357 Sig ammo is generally also less expensive and more available than .38 Super. Though a pain to reload.
I have changed barrels in a 1911 between 38 Super and 9mm. Worked just fine. Some people have reported needing to change the extractor, but I never had any feeding or failures to exctract/eject with the pistols I made this change to. You will also probably need to change magazines.
This is true that's what's wrong with a lot of the first 40 cal pistols that came out they were originally designed to be 9 mm parabellum and the 40 caliber just beat them to death.
Ok, I should probably keep this to myself, but not many guys will read this! During the worst of the ammo drought over the past couple of years, at times I couldn’t find 9x19 or .38 Special. But, I was always able to find .38 Super on line somewhere, and the prices for it remained about the same as in “normal times”. It’s my supplemental 9mm for ammo shortages. Also ,in a 1911 it ‘s just pure fun at the range. My Dan Wesson .38 Super is amazingly accurate as well. One of my favorite calibers.
I thought it was dead just like 357 Sig. It's back more than the Sig is. It's not a priority it seems.
Honestly, I don't think the .38 Super's velocity edge makes much difference in comparison to the 9s, but I love my .38 Super and the accuracy is incredible.
Any problems with it? I believe it's a semi rimmed round and I was wondering if you've had any cycling issues with it?
Great video. Thank you. Until recently I had no knowledge of the .38 super. My favorite pistol is the 1911 in 45acp and I own a few of them. I don’t particularly like the 9mm but my edc is a Springfield Hellcat in 9 mm because it’s practical to carry. But now I’m about to purchase another 1911 , this time a Colt , and decided I want it in .38 Super. I am very excited about the .38 Super! Wow , how sweet would it be to be able to get an Hellcat in .38 Super . I often wonder why people just follow trends and ignore fascinating possibilities. My favorite rimfire is another example. The 17M2 . An excellent top notch rimfire that just gets ignored . Oh well…I know I’m going to love my new Colt competition series 70 1911 stainless in the ultra cool .38 Super !
Wish there were more 38 Super (and 9x23) handgun options.
I loaded 140 gr with a gas check Bach in the olden days. I cast my own works great and gun has served me over 50 years. I put Bomar sights on the gun and have replaced the firing pin 40 yrs ago. Trigger is 2.5-3 lbs.I welded a bead 3/8” back from muzzle polished the inside of the bushing then turned bead down till it fits snuggly no rattle. Crimped the slide on the frame used rubbing compound to fit the slide and frame. Gun shoots under 1.5” at 25 yards when using a rest..
The performance should be much better with the Super, but the ammo companies have loaded down their products because they're afraid some dufus will shoot it in an older 38 Colt Auto gun. By handloading, the Super can easily match .357 Mag performance. That can't be done with a 9mm, safely.
It can easily match baseline 357 mag performance. 9mm+P+ can too, but you're pushing it all out.
Love the 38 Super I recently built a Commander size gun in 38 super Caspian slide and frame bar-sto barrel, when I was done almost didn't want to give it to the customer
The big differences are simple. 0.357" vs 0.355" diameter bullets. The 38 Super will have a 200 ft/sec speed advantage over the 9 mm if using the same bullets. I personally like the 158 grain .357" XTP bullets for 38 Super loads.
The only negative of the 38 Super that I can see is that it has a small rim. This is easy to fix though by using 38 Super Auto Comp brass from Starline.
I would seriously love to watch a video of someone try an get a 9 mm to out perform the 38 Super with a 160 grain 0.355" bullet. You could probably only safely do this with a CMMG Banshee 9 mm. I am convinced that the 38 Super became an obscure cartridge only because the US Army did not adopt it. The 38 Super is a native cartridge to the 1911.
Do you run the Super Auto Comp brass from Starline? I'm really getting interested in acquiring a 1911 in 38 Super but the thought of running a rimmed cartridge (or in this case "semi rimmed") leaves me wondering about reliability issues in an autoloader pistol).
The difference in 9mm vs 38 super is the same difference that's between 38 special and 357 magnum....1/8" in cartridge length which allows for more powder and 150 fps more velocity with same weight bullet. And just like the 38 special/357 magnum the 9mm and 38 super both use the same bullet when being reloaded even though some people think you have to use .356 for 38 super (that's BS) and those of us who have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds down the pipe of double stack 1911/2011 racegun in competition can tell you it's an accurate and reliable round. PERIOD.
I have factory loads in 38 Super that run about 540 FTLBS . It is a superior caliber to the 9 mm. I have read that many shoot 9x23 Winchesters through their Supers as well, as the cartridge was designed for such. The 38 Super is really a like a 9 MM magnum. If they renamed it that, it would sell like hot cakes. The 1911 and 38 super is a perfect combination. My daughters, from 11 to 15, liked shooting it the most of all of my pistols. I have some very nice 9s due to cost, availability., model offerings, and so forth, but the cartridge cannot really compare to a 38 Super loaded to its full potential. The 9 was around when Colt brought out the Super. It’s not really even in the same league. The current +P+ 9 mm seeks to perform like a caliber it isn’t. The Super takes these power levels with aplomb. I carried a BHP for many years, and took much grief from many, as back then, a real caliber, had to start with a 4…., but I loved that pistol, and of course, they were wrong, as most of those same critics, gun writers included, now carry 9s. The 9 is indeed the most practical for most self defense applications, but it lacks the tremendous history, being carried by both mobsters and FBI agents during that interesting and tumultuous era in American history. And, it also lacks the potential. If they wanted to introduce a caliber that would sell, they should have just reintroduced the 38 Super and called it the 9 mm Super Magnum instead of the 30 Super. The 38 Super will come back, because it is a wonderful combination of power. Performance. and shoot ability. Thanks for the video.
100% correct. In fact, technically speaking, .38 Super is 9.5 mm diameter wise.
Definitely a 38 super if I'm looking for a 1911 platform competition and or Target gun. Especially with handloads. However if I was going to do that I would look into the 357 sig first again you've got a high pressure fast shooting around roughly the same way projectiles and your shooting much faster and flatter
After using a Glock 17 9mm Pb for 20 years, qot a steel Tangfoglio P23 in 38 Super and have no regrets, it has been in my side also for 20 years. Always used 125 gr Silvertips in both, and the 38 Super is more accurate, lighter recoiling. Weight is not a issue with a propper leather OWB holster. For backup or suumer days a 38 Special 5 shot steel revolver is my option.
My 38super 1911 is the only pistol I can get my dad to shoot love the cartridge and pistol
Some people commenting on here are saying the 38 Super is ''waaay superior'', to 9mm. It isn't. Any cartridge can be loaded to extremes. Off the shelf stuff, which is what 99% of us shoot, will only be a hundred or so feet apart in velocity. The 38 Super cartridge is slightly more powerful than the nine.
Would have loved to hear you throw the .357 Sig in there since it spanks 9mm and .38 Super and comes it a 9mm sized platform.
Tanfoglio makes CZ 75 style pistols chambered in 38 super. You can get 21 rounds in an extended magazine with a ton of muzzle energy in each round. More than 9mm can produce. Factory ammo is tuned down but there's space in the cartridge itself to get way more power if you load it right.
In my experience of shooting 9mm, 45 cal and 38 super many other ammo, the 38 super rips metal almost apart where 45 makes a hole.
I have always been a fan of the 38 Super, right now I have a Rock Island 1911 38 Super I have had for sometime now. I load for mine so I don't have to pay the high cost for factory and I can load up or down depending what I want at the time. I fitted a Rock Island 9mm barrel in mine, uses the same magazines, Rock Island marks some of their mags for 9mm/38 Super, but even my Metalform 38 Super mags run 9mm flawlessly. It's a great cartridge but then so is the 9mm.
I sold my .38 super and live in the 10mm world now.
My absolute favorite pistol Colt Combat Commander in steel frame chambered in .38 Super. You can't go wrong with this combination!😏
Just made that purchase. Look forward to the gun range.
Very interesting. I love these little informative videos.
I have a 38 super. Bought many years ago. Was going to to build it into a comp gun but never got around to it. Buildup my 45 comp ended up costing way more than I expected
Bite sized facts are what makes this channel great. 👍
Both calibers were designed in an age every brand of firearms had its own caliber. It was the same time that 9mm Bergamann, 9mm Steyer, 9mm Browning Long, etc were design. There were not standaritation of calibers, every brand of pistol had its own 9mm or 38 caliber.
There is a big difference between these 2 rounds. The 38 super will do over 1300fps with a 130 gr bullet. And the 357 was not available in the late 1920s. I’ve been shooting 38 super for more than 50 years. In car penetration test the 130 gr 38 super will beat the 158 gr 357 mag. And you will never get a 9mm with a 124gr bullet to 1300 fps and keep the gun together for any length of time.
I would take .38 Super any day of the week too, but I know I saw an add in an NRA mag in 2018 advertising a 9mm 125gn bullet at 1400fps(?). I had to blink a couple times to make sure I wasn't hallucinating it.
So the big difference is 100 fps.
Factory 9mm+P+ 124gr@1300fps are offered by at least 2 different companies.
@@jason200912 100fps is the difference between standard pressure and +P in most calibers. Are a whole " of barrel length.
Several well known lawmen chose the .38 Super as part of their arsenal of carry. I swapped to .38 Super Comp and my Colt pistol runs like a dream. Without beating up the pistol, it is flatter shooting and easily a threat to steel target at 100-yds +. Thanks for the vid.
Thanks for another interesting video. I also think that if someone is looking at the 1911 platform but interested in something more similar to .357 mag, the 10mm fits the bill a little better. But .38 super is still a really neat cartridge.
I just spotted a Tisa 1911A1 Stakeout that has a 9mm barrel to swap out! Best of both worlds!
38super is a sweetheart. I have had some problems here and there with extraction on accounts of the semi rim. Some manufacturers I think are just using 9mm extractors in their 38s and it leads to these kinds of issues. Did some handloads with some supercomp and didnt have any better results with extraction, which was a head scratcher. Did some tuning and nada. Put it away in the safe for a couple years, took it out and it ran every mag without a problem with factory ammo 😑
Though I don't own a "super" the ctg has always intrigued me, I like the more obscure but worthy ctgs, such as the super, the 357 sig, the various 32 magnum pistol rounds... I think that the 9mm is over rated, because all the bullet advancements can also be applied to the other rounds. 9 has won out because of magazine capacity specifically double stack mags and our obsession with more. If we were in the single stack days, which would win out? My guess is those more powerful ctgs would win over the "wonder 9" which is adequate for self defense, but on the lower end compared to other rounds, if you were limited to single stack.
I definitely agree 9mm more practical for new gun owners.
In relation to 38 super….Same can be said for .357 Sig. However, I have a LW change out barrel for Glock .40 which makes the sig more practical for me.
As a side note, I switched back .40 during pandemic as 9mm became scarce
124 @ 1375 to 1425 and 147s at 1200 is why I prefer super. I get no capacity difference and can reload the two for the same cost while getting a performance increase in Super over 9mm in the same gun. It’s also a classy nostalgic cartridge with a cool history. In comparable sized guns I can get 357 magnum performance in a 1911 with 10+1 with faster reloads.
Some say it won't but I had a .38 super in a llama made like a 1911, it shot 9mm lugers all day long, no problem...
...
.38 super in my Tanfoglio Steel Witness Compact... JUST RIGHT!
Just to throw a monkey wrench, I am a 45 Super fan. A upgrade from 45 Auto. Similar history, albeit much more recent than the 38 Super growth from the 38 Auto. Nice video.
I’ve never tried it, but it seems like an interesting cartridge. It’d be cool if Sig came up with some parts to convert a P365 to shoot 38 Super, have the best of both worlds without buying a new gun.
In Mexico the colt 38 auto was iconic during the revolution a lot of them were sold there, I believe because it was flatter shooting than the .45 was the reason that people preferred it, to this day with mexican peoples it has somewhat of a cult status. They are even mentioned in traditional songs.
I have both, 9mm is more practical but the 38 super is more fun and appreciated a tad more
i bought a .38 Super slide/barrel/mags for my (originally) 10 mm Witness, because I've wanted a .38 Super for forty years. I already had the large grip (for 10 mm and .45 ACP), and the .38 Super gets more rounds in the double stack magazine. I've been meaning to get a 9 mm barrel as well -- that would let me shoot .45, 10 mm, .40 S&W (with just a barrel change), .38 Super, and 9 mm (another barrel-only change -- my gun, at least, happily feeds the shorter .40 round from the 10 mm magazine, so ought to do the same for 9 mm), all on the same frame. That would let me practice with the cheaper, easier to find 9 mm ammo, and keep .38 Super in the mags when I'm not at the range -- just as I can practice with .40, and load up full power 10 mm for "just in case."
Now if I could only get a .357 Sig barrel to fit. Maybe I need to get a reamer and a spare .38 Super barrel...
38 super was designed to punch through car doors
Most factory .38 super us loaded light in deference of the old double link Colts. The .38 is more capable and more comparable to .357 Sig in full power loadings. Also the Super runs heavy projectiles mutch better
Add to this mix the 357 (really a .355 diameter round) Sig, which may provided (for certain projectile weights) even greater muzzle velocity than does the .38 Super.
I have and shoot both, I enjoy .357Sig much more, both are highly effective. The .357Sig commercial loads are considerably hotter than the .38 Super. Most of the Sig loads run about 1350fps and the Super loads run around 1200ish.
However .357 Sig requires much more care if you load your own. Commercial .357Sig is less expensive (by far, in my market) and more available than .38 Super.
I carry a Llama Extra in .38 super. Love that gun and it's unique.
a composite rimless case with a steel head like the 277 sig furry in 38 super that can be loaded around 45k to 50k psi would be an awesome round. The 9x23 operated at 55k psi and pushed a 125gr bullet at 15000fps from a 4 inch barrel. Im mostly interested in schp for defense but they are really long so something that i can load up to 10mm length would make up for the velocity lost in these bullets while offering 9mm recoil. In my opinion schp are the best and most consistent bullet type for handguns but their flaw is that they can be pushed as hard.
38 super is an awesome cartridge, I wish it were more precedent!
I accidentally bought .38 Super ammo thinking it would work for my .38 Special revolver, so I ended up buying the Rock Island .38 Super 1911 model and I love it!
I agree with what you said. The 9mm is more practical due to ammunition availability but I’m a big fan of the 38 Super.
357 Magnum is to 38 SPL in the same way 38 Super is to 9mm.
38 Super is just a little bit more powerful than 9mm even if you push them both to extremes.
It sucks that I can find 38 Super ammo on occasion at my local Sportsman Warehouse and yet never see any 38 Super 1911s for sale. I did asked one time about ordering one and they said, it could take up to a year, or never, to get one in for you.
go on gunbroker u fool
@@gayrunnycumstain That wretched hive of scum and villainy and over priced guns?
I recently picked up a 1911 in 38 super for carrying while hunting and hiking, I was able to load the 147gr Hornady xtp to 1200fps, impressive. Everyone's got a 9mm, hardly anyone has a 38super which is pretty cool. Not going to stop carrying my glock 19 for edc in urban areas but variety is the spice of life! btw like others have commented the trajectory of the 38super is great compared to the 45acp
Love my colt 38 super!
Love both my 9 and 38, everyday carry a shield plus but have a Ria m1911 38 super in polished nickel, custom grips and a few gold, nickel and rose 15 rd extended mags, definetley a project pistol then anything.
I’ve owned 9MM pistols for most of the last 35 years. I’ve also had .38 Specials and a .357 magnum. Last year I came across a Rock Island m1911, with a nickel finish, in .38 Super Auto. It was just too nice to pass up, though it was a little pricey.
It be nice if 357sig would gain more popular! IMO great performance!
People tend to forget that the .38 Super is but a return to the original .38ACP load. The original .38ACP was quite hot, and was only loaded down because the Colt 1900 and 1902 kept breaking their locking lugs and links.
The 1911 was much stronger and thus can handle the original hot .38ACP wrong. The gun itself was named the Super .38 Automatic. The .38Super cartridge name didn’t even come about until the early 1970s when SAAMI decided to make a true separation between the .38ACP and ..38Super.
Sig P220 in .38 Super. Shoots great.
How many rounds on that I
Pistol
@@Hidalguense probably a single stack 9 rounds or so
Nominal loadings for 9mm deliver approx. 340 ft-lbs, nominal .38 super loadings, 500 ft-lbs. Be aware when buying 38sup for your firearm that certain brands, (Winchester, Blazer, others), may not have enough energy to operate the pistol. Using a recoil spring from a 9mm handgun may allow use of underloaded ammo. Look for 400 ft-lbs and up.
I can't recommend it, but a really unique experience is shooting .380acp in a full-size, steel-frame .38sup handgun. (No, it won't break the firing pin because dry firing it doesn't break it. It just won't cycle.)
I have both 9mm and .38 Super and I prefer the .38 Super, but, I am also a handloader and load my .38 Supers hot.
What diameter FMJ or LCB?
@@Nostradamus_Order33 .355, 125gr, both fmj and jhp
.38 Super is sexier. And it's got some cool Americana history to it.
I do not know what gun designer did it first, but there are lot of european pistols that were chambered in a series of almost identical cartridges to the .38 automatic, with the exception of the rim. The 38 ACP is semi rimmed. The Austrians used 9×23mm Steyr and the spanish the 9×23mm Largo (9mm Largo, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9mm Bayard Long. I have fired both the 9mm steyr, 38 ACP, and 9mm largo in an Astra 400 pistol that I use to have. Firing the 38 super is not a good idea in it. In another spanish pistol with a few strokes of a file it handled 38ACP and 38 super and without stronger springs I would stick with the 38 ACP for shooting. This was a recoil operated gun unlike the blow back Astra 400. If one needs bass for the spanish guns, 38 ACP with the semi rim reduced will function.
loquat44-40, Good to see another individual that has gone into the .38 cal/9mm world like I have. I have a Star Super from the mid 1930's that takes the 9 Largo as well as the 9 Bergman-Bayard (when I can find this caliber). I have a pair of M1914 Steyr Hammers that I have managed to get 4 different replacement barrels from Steyr to fit them. Steyr calls them their 'Classic' model and have 4 caliber offerings (9 x 19 Luger, 9 x 23 Steyr, 9 x 21 IMI and .30 caliber Luger) with 2 barrel lengths (5 inch and 6 inch) and they also offer 2 rifling profiles for these barrels; one profile for 'ball' ammo and one profile for 'cast lead' ammo. They were a bit pricey ( approx $280.00 USD plus S.&H. each) but I was flabbergasted that Steyr still supported this model of pistol. Just goes to show how stout this particular frame design is. Too bad the 'trigger pull' is totally atrocious, with little than can be done to clean up and smooth out the trigger weight and pull. Other than trigger pull the two pistols are a total blast to take to the range. When other people see them, they are left with their 'jaws' hanging open when I show them how easy it is to change from one caliber to the next. My favorite caliber to fire through both of these pistols is the .30 Luger. It just seems to be a smoother shooting handgun in the .30 Luger (not to mention that .30 Luger is much, much easier to find and not nearly as expensive as the 9 x 23 Steyr or 9 x 21 IMI cartridges) (my least favorite is the 9 x 19 as I find it to be harsh, abrupt and not nearly as fun as the other calibers) Regards, Matt Out Of North Texas
I'd really like to get a 38 super. Not that many factory guns chambered in it anymore. Besides something really high end like a Nighthawk or a Les Bear you pretty much have Rock Island or the Colt Competition.
Same here and same for the 9x23, I can't find any guns chambered in either that are readily available, i.e. in stock. And finding the ammo would present another problem. So for relatively small improvements over a 9mm, I'll just stick with 9mm and .45ACP.
Dan Wesson makes a 38 super in the Guardian series, Kimber made a number of guns in 38 super but I think discontinued them recently. You can find them on Gunbroker still.
@@g24thinf I'll assume then that all are used.
@@g24thinf Last time I looks the only Dan Wesson was a compact, I'm wanting a full size
Wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on the 357 sig
If you go look at the Bonnie & Clyde car, you see a bunch of through-and-through holes made by .45ACP. .357 Magnum didn't come along until after Prohibition was over. 9mmP was adopted because the Europeans never gave up the tradition of smaller calibers for rifled pistols, and the P.08 was the premier military-class pistol of the time. The US Army went to .44 only after tests done to determine what ball diameter would reliably put a Cavalry horse down, then to .45 when Colt's brought out the Single Action Army (Colt's developed the .45 to prevent people from simply boring through the cylinders of .44 percussion revolvers to use cased ammo).
One of the best shooting hand guns as far as accuracy goes that I have ever fired was a Llama 1911 in .38super. I tried to trade my Springfield 1911 .45acp and the man said no way.
Always wanted a ,38 super...
Much of what is presented here is correct, but only under the current conditions of Super .38 factory rounds being universally underloaded by the commercial outlets.
The old .38 ACP or .38 automatic loading fired a 130 grain FMJ bullet FASTER than the 9mm Luger fired a roughly 8.0 gram bullet by several hundred fps. The Super .38 goes faster than that, if properly loaded.
The video states the 9mm Parabellum round fits in a smaller pistol, due to the case length being smaller. However, as so many 9mm Parabellum handguns are double stack magazine configuration, I find a Government Model frame easier to hold and control than a wider grip.
Likely the 9mm Luger (parabellem, 9x19mm whatever) is more popular these days because the gun game types convinced everyone that 15 wild shots are better than one or two well done hits.
I have a very nice 'prepared' Super .38 in the arsenal, but I really don't shoot it much these days. I prefer a Government Model in .45 ACP or one of a few revolvers.
So the 38 super is a longer 9mm+p
But can you shoot the 9mm out of a 38 super chamber?