I've been saying this for the longest time. They need to normalize strike and condi damage. The simplest way imo is to just bake ferocity into power. It's a redundant stat as it essentially just increases your damage just like power (albeit for crits only), but that still makes it redundant. That singular change would go along way in balancing the 2 stats, though I agree with alot of the other ones you've mentioned. Like how alot of the skills that reduces damage taken, only work on strike damage. To be honest, I have no idea how this was even allowed to be the way it is in the first place.
I would really be happy if they got rid of half of the conditions and turned the rest into some kind of soft cc like eg poison halfing healing but just without stacks and dmg
Balance issues aside regarding stat options, conditions damage simply doesn't serve a role that "strike" damage already performs. The fact that conditions burst more or less invalidates their purpose in GW2. Conditions should have been primer/set-up mechanics rather than raw damage.
Ahh it's only one condi. What can one burning do?! cleanse! Wait it's another burn, well I have another cleanse! Ok one more burny, don't worry I have a bit more cleanse! hmm burning again? where does he keep getting it? Squeezes out last condi cleanse. Wtf 20 burn stacks?! ahh don't worry I have my cleanse again in 3...2...1.. RIP Solo condi best condi
What could fix condi damage problem? option a - give us defensive stat against condidamage or option b - change stacking damage mechanic into duration time so you wont get like 5k poision each tick, side node, Fuck arena net for favorizing condidamage in every mode and another side note props to you for finaly adressed most broken and fucked up mechanic of this game
Yeah, unfortunatly I play, record and edit on a bastard child of a toaster and a waffle iron which remembers the siege of Vienna. I can't push this pile of junk any further, and can't afford anything better :(. Gotta deal with sub20 fps for a while.
How about some kind of resistance? Mobs are sometimes immune to application of certain conditions (destroyers and burning...) so there is something like that already in the game. Certain skills could give you temporary resistance preventing from putting new conditions on you or growing the existing stack bigger. Or (similar to your idea if not the same...) resistance could lower damage/effectiveness from conditions - you have more resistance, poison work less on you
"Certain skills could give you temporary resistance preventing from putting new conditions on you" - that's just what block does XD "resistance could lower damage from conditions" - that's what resolution does. The problem is thease mechanics are spread to thin not allowung for precise enough balancing to create envioronment where neither conditions or their countermeasures, aren't too strong in some context.
@@captaincrapface7337 But block is active skill mostly - you can't do much else while blocking. And destroyers are just immune to burning - they don't need to block, they just attack you and don't worry about condition. And I also mentioned lowering effectiveness
We are literally one support chronomancer nerf away from Condi Apocalypse. In my gold 2 games no one plays support and playing DP or SD Daredevil into stuff like condi Tempest, Condi Reaper/Harb on 45k hp(with the barrier abuse) or Druid feels like im stuck in hell. Even some hybrid builds are popping up that sacrafice the Defense Part for more power with crit sigil on both weapons so I end up either dying to condis in 5 sec or I die from one spineroonie if I get chilled. We really need Condi Dmg, Condi Speed and Condi Duration stats ASAP because its insane how I need like 40 secs to kill a Reaper/Harb, Tempest or Druid if I god forbid need to engage him in a 1vs1 as a Daredevil meanwhile a single slight mistake or misplay will result in me losing like 60-70% of my hp making the engagement not worth it for me to continue. The montly automated tourneys really do not show this part because there is a crono support, vindi and sb in every single game.
Oh vengeance did you dirty several times, especially when you stomped the reaper. If you get a Stomp it should 100% revive you. Also, agree that something needs to be done about condis and duration (looking at harbinger especially). Dodging condi ticks might be too powerful, just thinking about daredevils, mirages and vindicators. Maybe nerfing the anus off expertise, so cleanses can be saved if you have health to wait it out? It's a tough one, but you're right it's not balanced.
Sympathy for the poor, poor crabs. Tbf (imo) Both Condi & Power "balance" or rather "relevance" is more down to either' a) How many multiplicative %reduction modifiers someone can stack or b) Condi relevance is down to how the condos like Weakness or Slow, etc. actually don't affect them as much, as you pointed out. However I think this is more down to the "evolution of the game." I'd rather see these ^ tuned down/up-to affect condi maybe than Power/Condi buffed or nerfed. With how Glass Cannon everything is Toughness/Vitality basically do nothing in PvP+WvW these days. They help, but if you're not invulnerable, you're dead. So now everything (Warrior Included) just chain all of their invulns. And whoever runs out first loses. >> But, again, this is more down to the preference of easy invulns and *ENERGY SIGILS STILL EXISTING* for some reason, than anything else. Nonetheless I like a lot of points made here. Solid video! 😄
Captain Crapface - great to hear yet another solid game analytic video - I have been somehow more comfortable with condi dps builds in PVE for a while. Now I have a better understanding why ;)
PvP ultimately died when elite specs came out and they never scaled them back after they weren't new and shiny anymore. Just like the power creep has gotten progressivly worse so has the player base. It used to be unimaginable that mid would be decapped or even capped in a team fight AT MID. But it happens in almost every game now. Anet decided to ignore PvP and now they just need to create a new mode that is more suited to the current play style. Conquest is too complex for the avg player.
I think the most significant change in recent patches was the gigantic nerf to resistance so that it no longer provides invulnerability to damaging conditions. Resolution was given as an alternative to be the condi-equivalent to protection, but precious few classes and specs actually received any kind of change to the duration of resolution or options for its application. Core warrior in particular has no options for resolution outside of the defense trait, hence why I obsessively stack condi cleanses (and it's still never enough). The way to address this would be to mitigate to a small extent the amount of condi vomit, especially from ground AoE. 2-3 condis are easy to deal with, 7 is fine once, but a reapplication of 7 condis within 5 seconds is virtually impossible to deal with. Resistance was overpowered, but it seems to me it was as necessary as stability in the current meta.
Core warrior has acces to resolution trough [Doubled Standards] in Discipline. Though i sincirely doubt it'll ever see use over [Brawler's Recovery] in the same column.
"I think the most significant change in recent patches was the gigantic nerf to resistance so that it no longer provides invulnerability to damaging conditions" And this was moment when balance ended up in jupiter sized pile of shit since when it happened
the only against condi dmg is retribution revenant with versed in stone, and yet that is only used in zerging wvw / in some specific comps too, and also resolution but u see the state of condi is so huge that in wvw, the Meta is condi. 1 power dps per sub + condi dmg dealers, even tho there is chrono, scrapper and tempest to cleanse - depending on the bomb u still get down by condis stacks - its ultra strong, people say ''ah just cleanse'' but condi can be applied quicker than it can be cleansed hehe -
I use a hybrid build now in pve, which does have some caveats, but after trying different setups for a few years now, the burst damage on a hybrid build is generally better, especially with griever's, and renegade runes, but it may not always be the case, as i run pistol/torch spectre, with scepter/torch in my second weapon slot.
The sentiment is there, but I'd do quite a bit more research and then tackle this video again when you have a better understanding of all of the options available to counter power and condition strategies.
Its an 18 min video already. Only thing I can do to discuss the topic in greater detail is going overe every build/skill/interaction case by case, which would last days....
@@captaincrapface7337 Less about quantity and more about quality. There is a lot more to this topic both on technical and psychological level. The later being why things were pushed to where condition builds are actually weaker overall in spvp than power builds, especially when you have supports on each team to trivialize them further. The main crux for condition builds is that, outside of a few exceptions, they have to wait for their damage to take effect. This essentially means that in a brawl, they are relegated to supportive dps through stacking non damaging conditions that they need to apply generally to survive waiting for their damage to kill because their damaging conditions are fewer in number and are continously being healed and cleansed away. The slow nature of conditions gives supports more time to take care of them vs the sudden death applied by the typical fast and bursty power builds that are the dominating dps picks for that reason. In reality condition builds rely on their team to fully or almost entirely fully focus on condition damage to be able to actually overwhelm the supports and kill but even then, its slower than fast power burst builds both in damage dealing and often in map maneuverability as well.
@@TheDetectiveJ You're totally right about the build up time. It's kind of the major issue with condi. Fire works faster but it is such a pain to see your damage nullified so quickly while it requires a bit of time to do serious damage. In high end fractals, people will switch to power because it's both faster and more efficient. Worse, despite a longer build up, the damage difference between condi and power is more or less the same. So while it has some usefulness, power is still more efficient across the board. They should either make some condi builds have shorter build up or increase the damage significantly to make up for it. Because as it is, unless you're a nasty necro, power will be more desirable. That's my 2 cents after trying out condi Weaver and condi Warrior (condi Warrior is so much better than Weaver too lol).
@@IRedpunk condi damage is too high for what it is and it would be better served to tone condi dmg down but also decrease the amount of cleanses classes have atm. Because if cleanse is the true counter to condis then we're doing something wrong. Edit: to further expand on the argument - dot dps in mmos was always typically very slow but also very punishing if you chose to fuck around and find out. So best way to defeat dot classes was to kite them away and not let them stack you up to hell and back. Because what cleansing does atm is cleansing too much in a team fight with supports but cleansing too little in a 1v1 situation or at least, for many classes, requires to spec in condi cleanse so much to the point where you become totally inadequate for power matchups. Ideally I would like to have close to equal chances of winning a condi or power fight, without needing to decide or gamble what spec the enemy is going to play, especially since builds and utilities are locked after match starts in spvp.
I'd rather expect crits to simply icrease number of condition stacks applied per hit, ranther tian down right modyfying how the dot itself works, but hey, the point of discussion is to consider as many possibilities as possible.
There's one more counter to conditions, though it's pretty much a necromancer exclusive: Taking conditions, and returning it to sender! I wouldn't consider it a serious check against condition damage, given it's exclusivity, but it is bloody hilarious when you do get dumped on, but just send it to an enemy and watch them melt instead. XD
Granted I haven’t watched the whole video yet but I think you gloss over the major advantage of power damage: it kills fast, leaving less time for support (or the player) to react, and that is an inherent advantage it has vs. condis. If condis were so overpowering you’d see them played more but the meta is quite a lot of power damage actually (SB, Vindi, DE, Untamed, etc) and condi reaper is mainly here to corrupt boons, apply poison and soften targets up for a spike.
How do you understand the meaning of words "Fundamentally Flawed". Are they synonimous with "Overpowered" ? Having a conversation about game desightn is very difficult, when majority of people takes everything you say, and reduces it into a flat argument of "OP or not OP" and crying that X or Y is "stronger" (which is often not stronger at all). This game has systems, and mechanics so putrid, they'd be immediatly disabled or removed, from any other multiplayer game withaout hesitation, but WE keep defending them becouse: "My enemy can kill me trough my 28k healthbar, my other 18k healthbar and my three permament damage mitigations. Unacceptable!" "My ignoring armor DoT's, that track enemy for me, while slowing his every action to a crawl, stopping is cooldowns from coming up, halving its healing and removing two thirds of his fucking damage, have to actually take time to kill somebody. I''m so underpowered!" "The damage type that at least requires the player to be fucking present to a teamfight to get kills, clears healthbars marginally faster. The game is Unfair!" Condi apologists, are more entitled and self-centered than Fucking thief mains. And as someone who played last 6 months as Condi-Zerker and just recently swapped to power zerker, Conditions take so little skill to play, that they straight up made me worse at the game, after this time.
@@captaincrapface7337 i try/play all kinds of builds, not being a condi fanboy. I do feel condi builds may be easier to play due to the damage application being less countered as you say. But there are plenty of power builds that are also relatively easy to play and have a huge impact in games like DE, DH, WB & Spellbreaker among others. If the whole meta was condi I could understand but a good comp seems to be pretty balanced between condis and power damage. Yes they are annoying to play against, way more than power damage, thankfully most builds have cleanses. I do find chill CD slow to be obnoxious because it already does a lot and is so liberally applied by reapers.
they could add some ‘true damage’ to all classes, where you can toggle between true damage or normal damage (if your condi damage is below a threshold) and only on certain abilities, and such abilities will be ‘skillshots’, skills that can be ‘juked’ and ‘kited’, so for example pole vault on daredevil deals 5000 damage (or 25% of their max hp) regardless of the opponents toughness or your own stats that way you get tankier power builds, that don’t have to spec as much into damage through build, utilities, runes etc which would allow you to run more condi removal it will be hard to change anything without causing huge upset 😵 for me personally i like fast paced gameplay so condi is flawed from the perspective that fights go on for far too long anyway
True dmg i a very bad idea... If youre oponents know how to target properly people woud be deleted even faster with no counterplay and pvp woud change in a small scale zvz...
@@Asmitha90 why wouldn’t there be counterplay? you can evade, block etc i’m not saying true damage that deal 50% max hp, something like 25% is reasonable, on a cooldown skill as it is the daredevils pole vault for example deals huge damage more than a stealthed backstab to 5 targets the only problem i could see is that a team of 5 use an unblockable on hit like basilisk venom, and then execute a single target…
this was so biased i stopped watching... - "power builds needs 3 stats while condi just 2 stats" yeah and expertise caps at 100% while ferocity can stack infinitely from all kinds of modifiers helping some builds crit over 10 k... - "dodge and block work better against power because you can't dodge or block already applied conditions" the thing about defensives is that you can dodge a power hit and not get hit, you can also dodge a condi hit and not get hit... but if you get hit by the power hit you lose 10k health and if you get hit by the condi hit you get a condi applied to you that you then often passively cleanse by weapon swapping or something so even though the ability hit you it still does 0 damage the only thing that help against the power hit that hit you is healing which hey, it also works against the condi damage too... shocking...
Another person didn't make it ti the point where video loops around cleanse and comes to the conclusion that conditions themselves aren't the problem, but the game at large is fucked. To be honest, I wanted to make video about both kinds of damage and hkw fucked everything is at large, but culdn't due to time constraints. - this therefore came out more shit than usual.
@@captaincrapface7337 yeah idk if the format of the video was the issue or me, but i just couldn't listen to the points being represented in the way they were for that long...
@@Atlaon7012 i am an ele player... ele is the most hybrid damage class in the game so yeah half my damage is condi, and? i assume you're a powerfanboy, so? what's your point?
@@HKRazieL still it dont change the fact that condi is fundamentally flawed, by the way how it is desinged wich in result is, well as like i like say overtuned, and trust me i wish power damage were atleast as half good as you think it is for every classes
Yeah, that's part of the problem. Cleanse removes either 0 or 100% of a condition with nothing in between, which especially in relation to intensity stacking effects, is hard to not be either completly useless or overpowered. That's basically entire last quarter of the video.
@@captaincrapface7337 well you can its a team game so you can always rotate out of opponent which gives you trouble or ask for +1, or play support, or play duelist, or roamer, decaper..... there's so much things you can do to adjust your gameplay. as they say "rock will always cry about paper being op but scissors find him balanced"
@@critical-thinker666 Im maining condi zerker for about half a year now, I don't cry about a thing I'm getting destroyed by, I cry about thing I'm destroying other people with. As i said in the video, Cleanse is just forced to handle by itself more than it should. Conditions as a system are fundamentally incapable of being balanced, just becouse they're counteracted by essentially a singular mechanic that goes from 0 to 100 with nothing in between. You'll either have too much cpeanse or not enough, never just enough to make the fight engagind and fair for both parties involved. Cleanse isn't capable of properly balancing all the caviotes and questionable desighn decisions made over last decade in regards to Conditions. They're just objectivly flawed, not overpowered, not underpowered, just flawed.
@@captaincrapface7337 You can just kite or leave if you are getting condi bombed... or just swap to class which handles condi better but i think war is one of the classes with insane amount of condi cleanse. vitality is also good way to negate condi dmg or rotate around your support. im quite sure that you can say much worse about power dmg since you can get oneshot in 2-3 sec or right after stun, condi usually gives you are least 10 sec to react/cleanse/run away/kite around etc.
@@critical-thinker666 I have criticised oneshot meta previously, and what prompted me to make this specific video, was i manadged to kill few people off of one 3-sec stun with Condi Zerker... GW2 has a lot of cancer, and conditions op or not, are just poorely implemented, but so are boons, defenses and damage in general. It's a mess, which prompts me to believe my love for it is stockholm syndrome.
Your arguments are missing some very fundamental chains in their logic. One of the most frustrating to me, is the idea that there's something fundamentally imbalanced about power having more counters, and requiring more stats to do its damage. The issue with this argument: balance isn't supposed to exist at the conceptual level. It's supposed to exist in practice. Differences at the conceptual level are what create identity. Clearly, despite all these supposed advantages for condi builds, in practice they remain much weaker than power builds in the context of spvp. Very few condi builds are actually viable, and there tend to be stronger power alternatives, with the current exception of condi reaper. So what's the actual problem? I think there is one, but realistically, I need you to do a better job making that argument before I can properly respond to it. What about the game is unfun? What is it about these mechanics makes the game unfun? Those are the important questions to answer from a balance perspective. Because fundamentally, balance is supposed to serve the experience of playing. There's no brownie points for creating systems that are symmetrical, or superficially "balanced" at a conceptual level. To expand a bit on the idea of identity (and why more symmetry could actually interfere with that) - fundamentally, conditions tend to have an identity of being mean. Roleplay wise, there's something more dirty, cruel, and underhanded about setting someone on fire, or poisoning them as opposed to fighting them head-on. So it actually makes sense for the gameplay to reflect that, as a way of furthering immersion. And it does! Condi damage tends to an easier way to win your 1v1s, requiring less coordination/effort. But it falters when a support cleanses the condis - the classic good guy roleplay. It's a funny thing to say, but unless someone complaining about condi builds raises good and specific points, I often suspect they've actually immersed themself in the identity of a non-condi player. Immersion - in this sense, feeling like you're an upstanding individual fighting against the underhanded - can leak into balance discussions quite easily, and I believe this is one of the reasons condi damage has consistently gotten the most hate, even when it's in a fundamentally weak state.
Well, condi reaper isn't the only exception, you can tip you rhat to conti berserker, condi druid and a couple others too. However, where I missed the point IMO is; I tried to argue that conditions are to complicated and muli-layered of a system, to be counteracted by a singular mechanic (cleanse) which goes form 0 to 100 with nothing in between. You either cleanse or not. I just apperantly continnue to suck at making my points clear.
@@captaincrapface7337 condi berserker is bad af tho xD and there are not many condi dmg dealers that can pose a threat in a 1vs1 scenario. Like you shouldnt win any 1vs1, cuz, as I think you even metnioned in your vid, it's dmg is mainely form 1 skill. so it's just to block/evade/kite that one skill and than it has almost nothing to harm you. And even then, it has very low condi pressure making it easy to cleanse even if it hits you. From my perspective the more experienced you are, the less danger condies are :p Like for example if you dont check your enemies before the match, and go a build that has no cleanses, than ye, condies are overpowered. But if you swap around each matchup, than it becomes easy to counter It's just the another mechanic of the game that ppl tend to skip cuz it looks easy :p
Not gonna lie chief, for someone hating so much on akeem and condi you aren't playing anything else Every time I've seen you in ranked you were some variation of condizerk
condi cleanse is a thing... it negates every build up condi esp if you understand how condis are applied and how removal works: - cleanse removes the last applied condis first. but in some cases they have some priority like cc cleanse allways removes fear first. - condis applies first from attacks then from traits. - means if a trait applies a dmg condi, thats the first thing you remove. like the bleeding chance with the curse trait on necro. also most cleanses remove two condis or more, in wich even if you cover up a dmg condi with a non dmg condi thats not enough. also also power builds get far stronger modified, cause higher numbers. lastly burst are the strongest mechanic for pvp: - if your opponent gets down before using skills he cant support/deal damage. its like the strongest cc. - you cant really burst with condis cause your opponent have 2 hole seconds reaction time before it gets crittical and sometimes even more. - power bursts are sometimes in under 1 second reaction time done. so you either need good reflexes or prediction skills. esp against a deadeye or fresh air ele the timing is even less then a second. at the moment they got theyr small burst combo, you allready lost 8k at least (with protection) if you compare dps vs burst. dps wins if burst doesnt work like on pve cause enermies have a huge hp bar. but in wvw and pvp the hp bar and the damage negations are too weak esp if you need high reaction time to counter bursts. i did my homework and since start condis are on the weak side. the only "good" condis are the utility ones like poison, chill, weakness. imo the strongest one is chill cause resources like cds are the most important thing, to have the cc, heal, damage negation or burst at right times is core of the game that said im still impressed by your deep dive, keep it up. i let out the boons and boon removal/corruption part out cause of this commend is allready long. in short it balances dmg output but still favors power dmg. ohh and lets ignore kitting and disengage pls, that part alone is worth its own video.
Yea, I alluded at the begining that conditions are far from being the antichrist, and even included footage of me getting oneshot by a power mesmer, though i should have specified much more precisely, that I'm not by any means defending power damage bloat, either. I'm just criticising poorely implemented features of the system.
There are some disingenuous take in this video. Conditions deal damage over time, which is a huge downside. You can negate way more condition damage with cleansing than you can heal strike damage. Should cleanses mitigate strike damage next? You mention strike damage having 3 attributes and condition damage having 2 attributes, so strike damage is advantaged by scaling exponentially even higher? After all, current top DPS in PvE are two power builds! With toughness only mitigating strike damage, people are disincentivized to take more of it as it won't help them against condition builds, so they don't and it open the door to strike builds doing big bursts. You're disregarding the scaling of strike abilities and conditions which make 1000 Power and 1000 Condition Damage not add the same damage, and the baseline damage not being equivalent either. When you dodge, yes you still take damage from already applied condition. But that's similar to how you don't heal back already taken strike damage. The only valid conclusion is that ANet need to refine the balance but the base is sturdy.
"The only valid conclusion is that ANet need to refine the balance but the base is sturdy." - so in the end we came to almost exactly the same conclusion. GW2 is poorely balanced in general, and i cincirely doubt there'll ever be a point of balance that satysfies everyone, however I think we can agree on one thing. When TTK with DOT's is similair to TTk with crits something, somewhere is fucked balancewise.
@@captaincrapface7337 hopefully in GW3 if it ever comes out, they will stop with the stupid condi/power divide and go back to GW1 roots with multiple weaponskill choices and the fact weapons could deal both DoT and raw damage in equal measure. It would simplify the balance design, since they still can't figure out shite after a decade+
Yea... tons of things are wrong in this video. Blocks are working the same for condis as they do for power. By saying that blocks only stops condi application my brain literally exploded. it's like saying that blocks only stop power attacks right now and not power attacks that happened 3 seconds ago xD that was insanly dumb. if a block lasts for 3 seconds, for those 3 seconds you are safe from both condi and power... WHATEVER HAPPENED BEFORE THOSE 3 SECONDS IS COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT TO HOW THE BLOCK SKILLS WORK. Condi skills applied to you before your block are irrelevant.. just like power skills that damaged you before the block are irrelevant.. There are quite a lot of reasons why power is extremely better than condi, as the meta over the years have proven. In all meta comps over the years, there has been like.... 90% power builds and 10% condi builds. There is a reason for that. For starters, Damage application that happens right now is extremely more valuable that damage application that happens MAYBE in 10 seconds. If i deal 10k damage NOW in 1 sec with a power build, it's a lot better than dealing 10k damage with bleeds in 10+ seconds... ( provided that noone will cleanse that ofc). Which brings me to the ultimate reason why Condi builds will always be worse in general than power builds... and that is support specs and cleanses. Like really i could talk about it for ever but i think that it should explain itself just fine. Since most good builds are constantly cleansing by farting and moving around with their W key, Condi builds will always better inferior. Yes over the years some GOOD condi builds have emerged in pvp but they are nothing compared to the power builds that emerged in terms of raw numbers, longetivity or even the impact that those power builds had. Another thing that i want to mention is the fact that... there is no condi build in pvp.. lol The condi builds have just as much power as the power builds... even percision sometimes.. They only lack ferocity or percision ( sometimes). In case you haven't mentioned a very good % of your damage applied is coming from actual power.. lol Pure condi only exists in WvW, and it pretty much sucks.. Gets completly overshadowed by celestial and it simply doesn't work on anything organised and BiG. Occasionally some good pure condi builds had emerged in the past, like the condi-cancer mirage... but as i said, for every GOOD condi build that existed, there's 10+ power builds that existed. As long as Condi cleanse exists in such great magnitude from everyone, and as long as supports completly nulify the existance of condi, they will always be inferior to power.. that's why everyone is playing power instead of condi. Also u did mention some skills that only work for power attacks, like endure pain or signet of stone. But did u mention some skills that literally transfer condis ? I don't know cus i closed the video half-way cus my brain exploded from the wrong thing's i've heard to that point.
well the block dodge thing sounds dumb, but is true, people just have to treat their cooldowns differently against different types of threats, and tbh i just overexplaon shit in case someone new/inexpierienced in the game stumbles on the video and has to cath up to speet with mechanics, so explanation sounds extra dumb to people with actuall knowledge. secondaly, i have bithched enough about power damage being too insane for a while already, let me bitch for once about something else. Furthermore, most of what you mention, was adressed in the video, and does in fact make conditions as a system fall into definition of "fundamentally flawed". Tbh, the conclusion of this video was that Op, or not, conditions are imperfectly implemented as a system, and that's a one thing we can agree about. The whole half of the game shouldn't himge of weither there's too much or too little cleanse.
@@captaincrapface7337 bro.. the whole GW2 pvp and wvw scene falls under the "fundamentally flawed" category... The block/dodge thing is the same. If you block/dodge a condi bomb , or a power burst, you accomplish exactly the same against your opponent. In my opinion Condis need to be worked towards being.. better. You literally see 1 condi build for every 20 power builds you find and that 1 condi build is basically bers warrior.. lol Which is just 1 spec. Cleanse is just way too much.. everyone has WAY too much cleanse. And supports makes things even worse or even unplayble for condi builds most of the time. Also keep in mind that some of the better/meta specs in the game, are not condi cleansing cus they chose to get condi cleanse instead of something else... Most GOOD specs in the game just condi cleanse by default while doing other stuff... And as i said before... pvp doesn't even have pure condis... every condi build has the same power as a power build... lol Pure condi builds only exist in WvW and they absolutly SUCK.
@@akhsdenlew1861 opening of your 2nd paragraph, is what i tried to argue for this entire time. Guess i have to just improve at makeing my intentions clear.
@@akhsdenlew1861 So a few things about this - condi doesn't exist. Okay, true condi doesn't exist, instead you have this single line stat that affects certain weapons with a condi effect in addition to a power effect. That condition damage statline affects multiple condis, some of which are applied in a single button press in addition to power damage. Sure, most players are taking power + precision + condi in Conquest (if at all), and most players are taking celestial in WvW. Nevertheless, I'm still looking at ticks in my combat logs of 2000 per tick of burning, plus 1000 per tick of bleed, confusion, or poison, on top of power damage, necessitating aggressively building and burning through condition cleanses to avoid my health bar melting, which are already absolutely mandatory because every single condi in the game is cancer if left alone. Weakness alone absolutely neuters power output, and can't be ignored. Chill is a brutal condition if left alone. Simply existing in Conquest on a node means I am eating condi bombs reapplying themselves as soon as they are cleansed. If I want to heal, chances are one single stack of poison, particularly with the readily available -50% healing debuff is going to make that difficult indeed, entirely apart from the damage. My warrior build by which I completed rated last season was entirely geared towards condi cleanse - relic of the trooper, three shouts, plus mending and cleansing ire, and I would still find myself regularly having four to six conditions glued to my ass after burning all my cleanses if there was a mesmer or a necromancer (or God forbid, both) within the vicinity, usually within seconds. The thing about conditions is that none of them can be ignored. They all drastically impact your ability to do literally anything, gap closing, landing burst skills, healing, doing damage, using skills. A condi ball isn't just about dealing damage, and many classes can casually throw out 5 conditions on your entire team on a node just by breathing. This is why Resilient Roll is such an important skill, and why condi cleansing is MANDATORY. The reason why you see it all over the place on so many builds is that conditions are cancer without dozens of cleanses in a team fight. It's like saying hard CC doesn't matter because stunbreaks exist.
@@shawnspectacular8213 i played condi for few months at this point, you can go back and count in how many videos of mine background footage is mostly condi-zerker. I have been on both ends of conditions, and i well damned sure, that I'm not biased. I'm against conditions, becoude they're implemented in poor way, and form indefendable mess of a system. With how hard you have to cope not to realize mishandled condis are, I have to assume you also approve of oneshots, permament invisibility, and CC bot builds.
@@shawnspectacular8213 this is the most concrete evidence, that you haven't watched my video, or at least not till the end as I stated my opinion very clearly. I didn't argue that cleanse is situatonally to powerfull, just to be ridiculled by someone openly shareing that same damned opinion.
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On the other hand using condi against certain builds may leave you entirely useless for the entire match, like builds with constant aoe cleanses.
I've been saying this for the longest time. They need to normalize strike and condi damage. The simplest way imo is to just bake ferocity into power. It's a redundant stat as it essentially just increases your damage just like power (albeit for crits only), but that still makes it redundant. That singular change would go along way in balancing the 2 stats, though I agree with alot of the other ones you've mentioned. Like how alot of the skills that reduces damage taken, only work on strike damage. To be honest, I have no idea how this was even allowed to be the way it is in the first place.
I would really be happy if they got rid of half of the conditions and turned the rest into some kind of soft cc like eg poison halfing healing but just without stacks and dmg
Resistance used to mitigate all conditions not only not damaging ones but they nerfed it.
Balance issues aside regarding stat options, conditions damage simply doesn't serve a role that "strike" damage already performs. The fact that conditions burst more or less invalidates their purpose in GW2. Conditions should have been primer/set-up mechanics rather than raw damage.
I play Chrono support. Condition who?
A cleanse for you! And you! I'll take a cleanse myself. Why thank you! Everybody gets a cleanse!
Ahh it's only one condi. What can one burning do?! cleanse! Wait it's another burn, well I have another cleanse! Ok one more burny, don't worry I have a bit more cleanse! hmm burning again? where does he keep getting it? Squeezes out last condi cleanse. Wtf 20 burn stacks?! ahh don't worry I have my cleanse again in 3...2...1..
RIP
Solo condi best condi
@@Apoz I raise you one Rune of the Trooper
@@tedhodge4830 vitalty&thoughness, ok?
What could fix condi damage problem? option a - give us defensive stat against condidamage or option b - change stacking damage mechanic into duration time so you wont get like 5k poision each tick, side node, Fuck arena net for favorizing condidamage in every mode and another side note props to you for finaly adressed most broken and fucked up mechanic of this game
your intel HD card is taking that fps
Yeah, unfortunatly I play, record and edit on a bastard child of a toaster and a waffle iron which remembers the siege of Vienna.
I can't push this pile of junk any further, and can't afford anything better :(.
Gotta deal with sub20 fps for a while.
@@captaincrapface7337 haha love that description "The Waffster of Danube"
@@captaincrapface7337 A WAFFLE IRON! 😂
@@captaincrapface7337I feel your pain. Got a new PC with mostly new parts but still rocking a 1060, works great until a meta event starts 😂
How about some kind of resistance? Mobs are sometimes immune to application of certain conditions (destroyers and burning...) so there is something like that already in the game. Certain skills could give you temporary resistance preventing from putting new conditions on you or growing the existing stack bigger. Or (similar to your idea if not the same...) resistance could lower damage/effectiveness from conditions - you have more resistance, poison work less on you
"Certain skills could give you temporary resistance preventing from putting new conditions on you" - that's just what block does XD
"resistance could lower damage from conditions" - that's what resolution does.
The problem is thease mechanics are spread to thin not allowung for precise enough balancing to create envioronment where neither conditions or their countermeasures, aren't too strong in some context.
@@captaincrapface7337 But block is active skill mostly - you can't do much else while blocking. And destroyers are just immune to burning - they don't need to block, they just attack you and don't worry about condition. And I also mentioned lowering effectiveness
We are literally one support chronomancer nerf away from Condi Apocalypse. In my gold 2 games no one plays support and playing DP or SD Daredevil into stuff like condi Tempest, Condi Reaper/Harb on 45k hp(with the barrier abuse) or Druid feels like im stuck in hell. Even some hybrid builds are popping up that sacrafice the Defense Part for more power with crit sigil on both weapons so I end up either dying to condis in 5 sec or I die from one spineroonie if I get chilled.
We really need Condi Dmg, Condi Speed and Condi Duration stats ASAP because its insane how I need like 40 secs to kill a Reaper/Harb, Tempest or Druid if I god forbid need to engage him in a 1vs1 as a Daredevil meanwhile a single slight mistake or misplay will result in me losing like 60-70% of my hp making the engagement not worth it for me to continue.
The montly automated tourneys really do not show this part because there is a crono support, vindi and sb in every single game.
As a warrior main i will take condi damge over power damage. We have crazy condi clear.
Oh vengeance did you dirty several times, especially when you stomped the reaper. If you get a Stomp it should 100% revive you.
Also, agree that something needs to be done about condis and duration (looking at harbinger especially).
Dodging condi ticks might be too powerful, just thinking about daredevils, mirages and vindicators. Maybe nerfing the anus off expertise, so cleanses can be saved if you have health to wait it out? It's a tough one, but you're right it's not balanced.
Sympathy for the poor, poor crabs.
Tbf (imo) Both Condi & Power "balance" or rather "relevance" is more down to either' a) How many multiplicative %reduction modifiers someone can stack or b) Condi relevance is down to how the condos like Weakness or Slow, etc. actually don't affect them as much, as you pointed out. However I think this is more down to the "evolution of the game." I'd rather see these ^ tuned down/up-to affect condi maybe than Power/Condi buffed or nerfed.
With how Glass Cannon everything is Toughness/Vitality basically do nothing in PvP+WvW these days. They help, but if you're not invulnerable, you're dead. So now everything (Warrior Included) just chain all of their invulns. And whoever runs out first loses. >> But, again, this is more down to the preference of easy invulns and *ENERGY SIGILS STILL EXISTING* for some reason, than anything else. Nonetheless I like a lot of points made here. Solid video! 😄
Captain Crapface - great to hear yet another solid game analytic video - I have been somehow more comfortable with condi dps builds in PVE for a while. Now I have a better understanding why ;)
PvP ultimately died when elite specs came out and they never scaled them back after they weren't new and shiny anymore. Just like the power creep has gotten progressivly worse so has the player base. It used to be unimaginable that mid would be decapped or even capped in a team fight AT MID. But it happens in almost every game now. Anet decided to ignore PvP and now they just need to create a new mode that is more suited to the current play style. Conquest is too complex for the avg player.
Why would they do such a thing. Locking powercreep behind a paywall -> $$$
I think the most significant change in recent patches was the gigantic nerf to resistance so that it no longer provides invulnerability to damaging conditions. Resolution was given as an alternative to be the condi-equivalent to protection, but precious few classes and specs actually received any kind of change to the duration of resolution or options for its application. Core warrior in particular has no options for resolution outside of the defense trait, hence why I obsessively stack condi cleanses (and it's still never enough). The way to address this would be to mitigate to a small extent the amount of condi vomit, especially from ground AoE. 2-3 condis are easy to deal with, 7 is fine once, but a reapplication of 7 condis within 5 seconds is virtually impossible to deal with. Resistance was overpowered, but it seems to me it was as necessary as stability in the current meta.
Core warrior has acces to resolution trough [Doubled Standards] in Discipline.
Though i sincirely doubt it'll ever see use over [Brawler's Recovery] in the same column.
"I think the most significant change in recent patches was the gigantic nerf to resistance so that it no longer provides invulnerability to damaging conditions" And this was moment when balance ended up in jupiter sized pile of shit since when it happened
the only against condi dmg is retribution revenant with versed in stone, and yet that is only used in zerging wvw / in some specific comps too, and also resolution
but u see the state of condi is so huge that in wvw, the Meta is condi. 1 power dps per sub + condi dmg dealers, even tho there is chrono, scrapper and tempest to cleanse - depending on the bomb u still get down by condis stacks - its ultra strong, people say ''ah just cleanse'' but condi can be applied quicker than it can be cleansed hehe -
I use a hybrid build now in pve, which does have some caveats, but after trying different setups for a few years now, the burst damage on a hybrid build is generally better, especially with griever's, and renegade runes, but it may not always be the case, as i run pistol/torch spectre, with scepter/torch in my second weapon slot.
Maybe 3 years after this next expansion when we get GW3 they will hopefully balance pvp, by changing the stats from the ground up
0:40 not even ur condi nor ut tanking could saved u from a GS mirage burst XD
Yes, I tried to demonstrate that there's more cancer in this game than just one flawed system.
The sentiment is there, but I'd do quite a bit more research and then tackle this video again when you have a better understanding of all of the options available to counter power and condition strategies.
Its an 18 min video already.
Only thing I can do to discuss the topic in greater detail is going overe every build/skill/interaction case by case, which would last days....
@@captaincrapface7337 Less about quantity and more about quality. There is a lot more to this topic both on technical and psychological level. The later being why things were pushed to where condition builds are actually weaker overall in spvp than power builds, especially when you have supports on each team to trivialize them further.
The main crux for condition builds is that, outside of a few exceptions, they have to wait for their damage to take effect. This essentially means that in a brawl, they are relegated to supportive dps through stacking non damaging conditions that they need to apply generally to survive waiting for their damage to kill because their damaging conditions are fewer in number and are continously being healed and cleansed away. The slow nature of conditions gives supports more time to take care of them vs the sudden death applied by the typical fast and bursty power builds that are the dominating dps picks for that reason.
In reality condition builds rely on their team to fully or almost entirely fully focus on condition damage to be able to actually overwhelm the supports and kill but even then, its slower than fast power burst builds both in damage dealing and often in map maneuverability as well.
@@TheDetectiveJ You're totally right about the build up time. It's kind of the major issue with condi. Fire works faster but it is such a pain to see your damage nullified so quickly while it requires a bit of time to do serious damage.
In high end fractals, people will switch to power because it's both faster and more efficient. Worse, despite a longer build up, the damage difference between condi and power is more or less the same. So while it has some usefulness, power is still more efficient across the board.
They should either make some condi builds have shorter build up or increase the damage significantly to make up for it. Because as it is, unless you're a nasty necro, power will be more desirable.
That's my 2 cents after trying out condi Weaver and condi Warrior (condi Warrior is so much better than Weaver too lol).
@@TheDetectiveJ ☝🤓
@@IRedpunk condi damage is too high for what it is and it would be better served to tone condi dmg down but also decrease the amount of cleanses classes have atm.
Because if cleanse is the true counter to condis then we're doing something wrong.
Edit: to further expand on the argument - dot dps in mmos was always typically very slow but also very punishing if you chose to fuck around and find out.
So best way to defeat dot classes was to kite them away and not let them stack you up to hell and back.
Because what cleansing does atm is cleansing too much in a team fight with supports but cleansing too little in a 1v1 situation or at least, for many classes, requires to spec in condi cleanse so much to the point where you become totally inadequate for power matchups.
Ideally I would like to have close to equal chances of winning a condi or power fight, without needing to decide or gamble what spec the enemy is going to play, especially since builds and utilities are locked after match starts in spvp.
This is a master class!! Hope anet watches this one, great content!!!
What if they made crits do extra damage over time that ignores resistance and ferocity determines how long that over time is?
I'd rather expect crits to simply icrease number of condition stacks applied per hit, ranther tian down right modyfying how the dot itself works, but hey, the point of discussion is to consider as many possibilities as possible.
There's one more counter to conditions, though it's pretty much a necromancer exclusive: Taking conditions, and returning it to sender!
I wouldn't consider it a serious check against condition damage, given it's exclusivity, but it is bloody hilarious when you do get dumped on, but just send it to an enemy and watch them melt instead. XD
Condi transfer is basically condi cleanse that fucks your opponent twice.
Not really yhat different from self-preservation only perspective.
Granted I haven’t watched the whole video yet but I think you gloss over the major advantage of power damage: it kills fast, leaving less time for support (or the player) to react, and that is an inherent advantage it has vs. condis. If condis were so overpowering you’d see them played more but the meta is quite a lot of power damage actually (SB, Vindi, DE, Untamed, etc) and condi reaper is mainly here to corrupt boons, apply poison and soften targets up for a spike.
How do you understand the meaning of words "Fundamentally Flawed".
Are they synonimous with "Overpowered" ?
Having a conversation about game desightn is very difficult, when majority of people takes everything you say, and reduces it into a flat argument of "OP or not OP" and crying that X or Y is "stronger" (which is often not stronger at all).
This game has systems, and mechanics so putrid, they'd be immediatly disabled or removed, from any other multiplayer game withaout hesitation, but WE keep defending them becouse:
"My enemy can kill me trough my 28k healthbar, my other 18k healthbar and my three permament damage mitigations. Unacceptable!"
"My ignoring armor DoT's, that track enemy for me, while slowing his every action to a crawl, stopping is cooldowns from coming up, halving its healing and removing two thirds of his fucking damage, have to actually take time to kill somebody. I''m so underpowered!"
"The damage type that at least requires the player to be fucking present to a teamfight to get kills, clears healthbars marginally faster. The game is Unfair!"
Condi apologists, are more entitled and self-centered than Fucking thief mains.
And as someone who played last 6 months as Condi-Zerker and just recently swapped to power zerker, Conditions take so little skill to play, that they straight up made me worse at the game, after this time.
@@captaincrapface7337 i try/play all kinds of builds, not being a condi fanboy. I do feel condi builds may be easier to play due to the damage application being less countered as you say. But there are plenty of power builds that are also relatively easy to play and have a huge impact in games like DE, DH, WB & Spellbreaker among others. If the whole meta was condi I could understand but a good comp seems to be pretty balanced between condis and power damage.
Yes they are annoying to play against, way more than power damage, thankfully most builds have cleanses.
I do find chill CD slow to be obnoxious because it already does a lot and is so liberally applied by reapers.
The "in" within the title confused me so badly
they could add some ‘true damage’ to all classes, where you can toggle between true damage or normal damage (if your condi damage is below a threshold) and only on certain abilities, and such abilities will be ‘skillshots’, skills that can be ‘juked’ and ‘kited’, so for example pole vault on daredevil deals 5000 damage (or 25% of their max hp) regardless of the opponents toughness or your own stats
that way you get tankier power builds, that don’t have to spec as much into damage through build, utilities, runes etc which would allow you to run more condi removal
it will be hard to change anything without causing huge upset 😵
for me personally i like fast paced gameplay so condi is flawed from the perspective that fights go on for far too long anyway
True dmg i a very bad idea... If youre oponents know how to target properly people woud be deleted even faster with no counterplay and pvp woud change in a small scale zvz...
@@Asmitha90 why wouldn’t there be counterplay? you can evade, block etc
i’m not saying true damage that deal 50% max hp, something like 25% is reasonable, on a cooldown skill
as it is the daredevils pole vault for example deals huge damage more than a stealthed backstab to 5 targets
the only problem i could see is that a team of 5 use an unblockable on hit like basilisk venom, and then execute a single target…
this was so biased i stopped watching...
- "power builds needs 3 stats while condi just 2 stats" yeah and expertise caps at 100% while ferocity can stack infinitely from all kinds of modifiers helping some builds crit over 10 k...
- "dodge and block work better against power because you can't dodge or block already applied conditions" the thing about defensives is that you can dodge a power hit and not get hit, you can also dodge a condi hit and not get hit... but if you get hit by the power hit you lose 10k health and if you get hit by the condi hit you get a condi applied to you that you then often passively cleanse by weapon swapping or something so even though the ability hit you it still does 0 damage the only thing that help against the power hit that hit you is healing which hey, it also works against the condi damage too... shocking...
Another person didn't make it ti the point where video loops around cleanse and comes to the conclusion that conditions themselves aren't the problem, but the game at large is fucked.
To be honest, I wanted to make video about both kinds of damage and hkw fucked everything is at large, but culdn't due to time constraints.
- this therefore came out more shit than usual.
@@captaincrapface7337 yeah idk if the format of the video was the issue or me, but i just couldn't listen to the points being represented in the way they were for that long...
@@HKRazieL I assuming you are condifanboy if you think "this was so biased i stopped watching"
@@Atlaon7012 i am an ele player... ele is the most hybrid damage class in the game so yeah half my damage is condi, and? i assume you're a powerfanboy, so? what's your point?
@@HKRazieL still it dont change the fact that condi is fundamentally flawed, by the way how it is desinged wich in result is, well as like i like say overtuned, and trust me i wish power damage were atleast as half good as you think it is for every classes
If only there were classes which completely nagate all enemy condi players.
Yeah, that's part of the problem.
Cleanse removes either 0 or 100% of a condition with nothing in between, which especially in relation to intensity stacking effects, is hard to not be either completly useless or overpowered.
That's basically entire last quarter of the video.
@@captaincrapface7337 well you can its a team game so you can always rotate out of opponent which gives you trouble or ask for +1, or play support, or play duelist, or roamer, decaper..... there's so much things you can do to adjust your gameplay.
as they say "rock will always cry about paper being op but scissors find him balanced"
@@critical-thinker666 Im maining condi zerker for about half a year now, I don't cry about a thing I'm getting destroyed by, I cry about thing I'm destroying other people with.
As i said in the video, Cleanse is just forced to handle by itself more than it should. Conditions as a system are fundamentally incapable of being balanced, just becouse they're counteracted by essentially a singular mechanic that goes from 0 to 100 with nothing in between.
You'll either have too much cpeanse or not enough, never just enough to make the fight engagind and fair for both parties involved.
Cleanse isn't capable of properly balancing all the caviotes and questionable desighn decisions made over last decade in regards to Conditions.
They're just objectivly flawed, not overpowered, not underpowered, just flawed.
@@captaincrapface7337 You can just kite or leave if you are getting condi bombed... or just swap to class which handles condi better but i think war is one of the classes with insane amount of condi cleanse.
vitality is also good way to negate condi dmg or rotate around your support.
im quite sure that you can say much worse about power dmg since you can get oneshot in 2-3 sec or right after stun, condi usually gives you are least 10 sec to react/cleanse/run away/kite around etc.
@@critical-thinker666 I have criticised oneshot meta previously, and what prompted me to make this specific video, was i manadged to kill few people off of one 3-sec stun with Condi Zerker...
GW2 has a lot of cancer, and conditions op or not, are just poorely implemented, but so are boons, defenses and damage in general.
It's a mess, which prompts me to believe my love for it is stockholm syndrome.
I think you forgot to put GW2 after the in, in your title, or left it there and needs to be removed.
Still a good video though :))
I enjoy your content.
Your arguments are missing some very fundamental chains in their logic. One of the most frustrating to me, is the idea that there's something fundamentally imbalanced about power having more counters, and requiring more stats to do its damage. The issue with this argument: balance isn't supposed to exist at the conceptual level. It's supposed to exist in practice. Differences at the conceptual level are what create identity. Clearly, despite all these supposed advantages for condi builds, in practice they remain much weaker than power builds in the context of spvp. Very few condi builds are actually viable, and there tend to be stronger power alternatives, with the current exception of condi reaper.
So what's the actual problem? I think there is one, but realistically, I need you to do a better job making that argument before I can properly respond to it. What about the game is unfun? What is it about these mechanics makes the game unfun? Those are the important questions to answer from a balance perspective. Because fundamentally, balance is supposed to serve the experience of playing. There's no brownie points for creating systems that are symmetrical, or superficially "balanced" at a conceptual level.
To expand a bit on the idea of identity (and why more symmetry could actually interfere with that) - fundamentally, conditions tend to have an identity of being mean. Roleplay wise, there's something more dirty, cruel, and underhanded about setting someone on fire, or poisoning them as opposed to fighting them head-on. So it actually makes sense for the gameplay to reflect that, as a way of furthering immersion. And it does! Condi damage tends to an easier way to win your 1v1s, requiring less coordination/effort. But it falters when a support cleanses the condis - the classic good guy roleplay. It's a funny thing to say, but unless someone complaining about condi builds raises good and specific points, I often suspect they've actually immersed themself in the identity of a non-condi player. Immersion - in this sense, feeling like you're an upstanding individual fighting against the underhanded - can leak into balance discussions quite easily, and I believe this is one of the reasons condi damage has consistently gotten the most hate, even when it's in a fundamentally weak state.
Well, condi reaper isn't the only exception, you can tip you rhat to conti berserker, condi druid and a couple others too.
However, where I missed the point IMO is; I tried to argue that conditions are to complicated and muli-layered of a system, to be counteracted by a singular mechanic (cleanse) which goes form 0 to 100 with nothing in between. You either cleanse or not.
I just apperantly continnue to suck at making my points clear.
@@captaincrapface7337 condi berserker is bad af tho xD and there are not many condi dmg dealers that can pose a threat in a 1vs1 scenario.
Like you shouldnt win any 1vs1, cuz, as I think you even metnioned in your vid, it's dmg is mainely form 1 skill. so it's just to block/evade/kite that one skill and than it has almost nothing to harm you. And even then, it has very low condi pressure making it easy to cleanse even if it hits you.
From my perspective the more experienced you are, the less danger condies are :p
Like for example if you dont check your enemies before the match, and go a build that has no cleanses, than ye, condies are overpowered. But if you swap around each matchup, than it becomes easy to counter
It's just the another mechanic of the game that ppl tend to skip cuz it looks easy :p
I am very annoyed that mesmer GS hits don't count as projectiles. Like wtf.
Not gonna lie chief, for someone hating so much on akeem and condi you aren't playing anything else
Every time I've seen you in ranked you were some variation of condizerk
that's how you know I'm not just bitching becouse some condi dude took my lunch money.
@@captaincrapface7337 so instead you are bitching how easy it is to take other's lunch money, I see
@@Hvallur flawed doesn't instantly mean overpowered, but yes.
condi cleanse is a thing...
it negates every build up condi esp if you understand how condis are applied and how removal works:
- cleanse removes the last applied condis first. but in some cases they have some priority like cc cleanse allways removes fear first.
- condis applies first from attacks then from traits.
- means if a trait applies a dmg condi, thats the first thing you remove. like the bleeding chance with the curse trait on necro.
also most cleanses remove two condis or more, in wich even if you cover up a dmg condi with a non dmg condi thats not enough.
also also power builds get far stronger modified, cause higher numbers.
lastly burst are the strongest mechanic for pvp:
- if your opponent gets down before using skills he cant support/deal damage. its like the strongest cc.
- you cant really burst with condis cause your opponent have 2 hole seconds reaction time before it gets crittical and sometimes even more.
- power bursts are sometimes in under 1 second reaction time done. so you either need good reflexes or prediction skills. esp against a deadeye or fresh air ele the timing is even less then a second. at the moment they got theyr small burst combo, you allready lost 8k at least (with protection)
if you compare dps vs burst. dps wins if burst doesnt work like on pve cause enermies have a huge hp bar. but in wvw and pvp the hp bar and the damage negations are too weak esp if you need high reaction time to counter bursts.
i did my homework and since start condis are on the weak side. the only "good" condis are the utility ones like poison, chill, weakness. imo the strongest one is chill cause resources like cds are the most important thing, to have the cc, heal, damage negation or burst at right times is core of the game
that said im still impressed by your deep dive, keep it up.
i let out the boons and boon removal/corruption part out cause of this commend is allready long. in short it balances dmg output but still favors power dmg.
ohh and lets ignore kitting and disengage pls, that part alone is worth its own video.
Yea, I alluded at the begining that conditions are far from being the antichrist, and even included footage of me getting oneshot by a power mesmer, though i should have specified much more precisely, that I'm not by any means defending power damage bloat, either.
I'm just criticising poorely implemented features of the system.
There are some disingenuous take in this video.
Conditions deal damage over time, which is a huge downside. You can negate way more condition damage with cleansing than you can heal strike damage. Should cleanses mitigate strike damage next?
You mention strike damage having 3 attributes and condition damage having 2 attributes, so strike damage is advantaged by scaling exponentially even higher? After all, current top DPS in PvE are two power builds!
With toughness only mitigating strike damage, people are disincentivized to take more of it as it won't help them against condition builds, so they don't and it open the door to strike builds doing big bursts.
You're disregarding the scaling of strike abilities and conditions which make 1000 Power and 1000 Condition Damage not add the same damage, and the baseline damage not being equivalent either.
When you dodge, yes you still take damage from already applied condition. But that's similar to how you don't heal back already taken strike damage.
The only valid conclusion is that ANet need to refine the balance but the base is sturdy.
"The only valid conclusion is that ANet need to refine the balance but the base is sturdy." - so in the end we came to almost exactly the same conclusion.
GW2 is poorely balanced in general, and i cincirely doubt there'll ever be a point of balance that satysfies everyone, however I think we can agree on one thing.
When TTK with DOT's is similair to TTk with crits something, somewhere is fucked balancewise.
@@captaincrapface7337 hopefully in GW3 if it ever comes out, they will stop with the stupid condi/power divide and go back to GW1 roots with multiple weaponskill choices and the fact weapons could deal both DoT and raw damage in equal measure.
It would simplify the balance design, since they still can't figure out shite after a decade+
@@IRedpunk im pretty sure game being basicaly a vegetable wasn't helping.
Yea... tons of things are wrong in this video.
Blocks are working the same for condis as they do for power.
By saying that blocks only stops condi application my brain literally exploded.
it's like saying that blocks only stop power attacks right now and not power attacks that happened 3 seconds ago xD
that was insanly dumb.
if a block lasts for 3 seconds, for those 3 seconds you are safe from both condi and power... WHATEVER HAPPENED BEFORE THOSE 3 SECONDS IS COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT TO HOW THE BLOCK SKILLS WORK.
Condi skills applied to you before your block are irrelevant.. just like power skills that damaged you before the block are irrelevant..
There are quite a lot of reasons why power is extremely better than condi, as the meta over the years have proven.
In all meta comps over the years, there has been like.... 90% power builds and 10% condi builds.
There is a reason for that.
For starters, Damage application that happens right now is extremely more valuable that damage application that happens MAYBE in 10 seconds.
If i deal 10k damage NOW in 1 sec with a power build, it's a lot better than dealing 10k damage with bleeds in 10+ seconds... ( provided that noone will cleanse that ofc).
Which brings me to the ultimate reason why Condi builds will always be worse in general than power builds... and that is support specs and cleanses.
Like really i could talk about it for ever but i think that it should explain itself just fine.
Since most good builds are constantly cleansing by farting and moving around with their W key, Condi builds will always better inferior.
Yes over the years some GOOD condi builds have emerged in pvp but they are nothing compared to the power builds that emerged in terms of raw numbers, longetivity or even the impact that those power builds had.
Another thing that i want to mention is the fact that... there is no condi build in pvp.. lol
The condi builds have just as much power as the power builds... even percision sometimes..
They only lack ferocity or percision ( sometimes).
In case you haven't mentioned a very good % of your damage applied is coming from actual power.. lol
Pure condi only exists in WvW, and it pretty much sucks..
Gets completly overshadowed by celestial and it simply doesn't work on anything organised and BiG.
Occasionally some good pure condi builds had emerged in the past, like the condi-cancer mirage... but as i said, for every GOOD condi build that existed, there's 10+ power builds that existed.
As long as Condi cleanse exists in such great magnitude from everyone, and as long as supports completly nulify the existance of condi, they will always be inferior to power.. that's why everyone is playing power instead of condi.
Also u did mention some skills that only work for power attacks, like endure pain or signet of stone.
But did u mention some skills that literally transfer condis ?
I don't know cus i closed the video half-way cus my brain exploded from the wrong thing's i've heard to that point.
well the block dodge thing sounds dumb, but is true, people just have to treat their cooldowns differently against different types of threats, and tbh i just overexplaon shit in case someone new/inexpierienced in the game stumbles on the video and has to cath up to speet with mechanics, so explanation sounds extra dumb to people with actuall knowledge.
secondaly, i have bithched enough about power damage being too insane for a while already, let me bitch for once about something else.
Furthermore, most of what you mention, was adressed in the video, and does in fact make conditions as a system fall into definition of "fundamentally flawed".
Tbh, the conclusion of this video was that Op, or not, conditions are imperfectly implemented as a system, and that's a one thing we can agree about.
The whole half of the game shouldn't himge of weither there's too much or too little cleanse.
@@captaincrapface7337 bro.. the whole GW2 pvp and wvw scene falls under the "fundamentally flawed" category...
The block/dodge thing is the same.
If you block/dodge a condi bomb , or a power burst, you accomplish exactly the same against your opponent.
In my opinion Condis need to be worked towards being.. better.
You literally see 1 condi build for every 20 power builds you find and that 1 condi build is basically bers warrior.. lol
Which is just 1 spec.
Cleanse is just way too much.. everyone has WAY too much cleanse.
And supports makes things even worse or even unplayble for condi builds most of the time.
Also keep in mind that some of the better/meta specs in the game, are not condi cleansing cus they chose to get condi cleanse instead of something else...
Most GOOD specs in the game just condi cleanse by default while doing other stuff...
And as i said before... pvp doesn't even have pure condis... every condi build has the same power as a power build... lol
Pure condi builds only exist in WvW and they absolutly SUCK.
@@akhsdenlew1861 opening of your 2nd paragraph, is what i tried to argue for this entire time.
Guess i have to just improve at makeing my intentions clear.
@@captaincrapface7337 Perhaps...
@@akhsdenlew1861 So a few things about this - condi doesn't exist.
Okay, true condi doesn't exist, instead you have this single line stat that affects certain weapons with a condi effect in addition to a power effect. That condition damage statline affects multiple condis, some of which are applied in a single button press in addition to power damage. Sure, most players are taking power + precision + condi in Conquest (if at all), and most players are taking celestial in WvW. Nevertheless, I'm still looking at ticks in my combat logs of 2000 per tick of burning, plus 1000 per tick of bleed, confusion, or poison, on top of power damage, necessitating aggressively building and burning through condition cleanses to avoid my health bar melting, which are already absolutely mandatory because every single condi in the game is cancer if left alone. Weakness alone absolutely neuters power output, and can't be ignored. Chill is a brutal condition if left alone. Simply existing in Conquest on a node means I am eating condi bombs reapplying themselves as soon as they are cleansed. If I want to heal, chances are one single stack of poison, particularly with the readily available -50% healing debuff is going to make that difficult indeed, entirely apart from the damage.
My warrior build by which I completed rated last season was entirely geared towards condi cleanse - relic of the trooper, three shouts, plus mending and cleansing ire, and I would still find myself regularly having four to six conditions glued to my ass after burning all my cleanses if there was a mesmer or a necromancer (or God forbid, both) within the vicinity, usually within seconds. The thing about conditions is that none of them can be ignored. They all drastically impact your ability to do literally anything, gap closing, landing burst skills, healing, doing damage, using skills. A condi ball isn't just about dealing damage, and many classes can casually throw out 5 conditions on your entire team on a node just by breathing.
This is why Resilient Roll is such an important skill, and why condi cleansing is MANDATORY. The reason why you see it all over the place on so many builds is that conditions are cancer without dozens of cleanses in a team fight. It's like saying hard CC doesn't matter because stunbreaks exist.
So basically you’re against all condi builds and conditions altogether got it.
I see you didn't watch the video :)
@@captaincrapface7337 actually I did. And as a condi build player for years I can tell when someone is against it.
@@shawnspectacular8213 i played condi for few months at this point, you can go back and count in how many videos of mine background footage is mostly condi-zerker.
I have been on both ends of conditions, and i well damned sure, that I'm not biased.
I'm against conditions, becoude they're implemented in poor way, and form indefendable mess of a system.
With how hard you have to cope not to realize mishandled condis are, I have to assume you also approve of oneshots, permament invisibility, and CC bot builds.
@@captaincrapface7337 yea and mainly in pvp. And what do I get from your video ? You want a major nerf on condi
@@shawnspectacular8213 this is the most concrete evidence, that you haven't watched my video, or at least not till the end as I stated my opinion very clearly.
I didn't argue that cleanse is situatonally to powerfull, just to be ridiculled by someone openly shareing that same damned opinion.