Retrospective notes: - In the original japanese script for the game it says that Shadow was brainwashed by Gerald Robotnick into almost causing the end of the world so that's a minus for the translation team. It also doesn't disprove my take that this would make the story worse as Shadow's actions aren't informed by rightous vengence and anger, he was just tricked into it which robs him of his angency in the story so that's a minus for the writing team. - I should clarify that when I say "he's making this up" a better way to have phrased this is that a lot of Anthony's interpretation have very little evidence backing them up, he can say "Shadow and Silver have a mentor-mentee dynamic" but if that isn't demonstrated to the audience in a cohesive way, then the interpretation doesn't hold any water. - After researching a little bit more I've learned that Shadow is tightly controlled by SEGA in terms of writing, particularly in the comics. (and this is something enforced, to the best of my knowledge, outside of the Ken Penders thing) Which sucks especially for writers who would want to take this character in a different direction but I don't think that the direction that Anthony and other Sonic fans have in mind is particularly interesting because... - Shadow in Sonic 06 is a boring character, as is everyone in that game. He is generically good like Sonic except he is occasionally moody. His motivations are boring and nothing is really added to the character, there is that thing where Mephilis says that "the humans will betray him" but he never seems to really consider this all that much, none of his actions change because of that piece of information.
Except no. Gerald says that he CONTROLS Shadow's memories. He says that he controls Shadow's memories, but he never said what he did with his memories. It's only this way if you WANT it this way. This entire video is a paragon example of 'bad faith'. Shadow didn't 'forget' Maria's wish. He flat-out suppressed it. I thought 'false memory syndrome' is common knowledge at this point, but I guess I was wrong...............
I mean, if you think being a moody good guy is boring then I guess you really must not like Batman or Batman-type characters. Lots of people love this type of character for a reason. But you do you.
That's why Sonic forces should've taken that direction with Infinite. Infinite should've framed Shadow with the Phantom Ruby and then Have G.u.n, sonic and friends after him and then Have Omega be the Final boss like what omega said about being the one capturing Shadow. Fight him as Shadow and rouge to get the last Chaos emeralds to fight the Phantom ruby. "You took my squads Life, now I shall take the very people you once considered friends and turn them against you to take your life"
I think terms like Edgelord have such a bad stigma or reputation with them, that people automatically hear it and assume it automatically means "bad". Which is really frustrating to be honest. There's so many characters that are great or likable, but because they have elements that some people don't like, it automatically means "this is a bad character." It's like saying a movie is poorly written because it has a few tropes you don't like. (Which sadly, people already do.)
Addendum: A character doesn't have to be masterfully written or even that "good" for your enjoyment of them to be valid. You can enjoy characters for a multitude of reasons. Because you find them funny, you think they're sweet or likable, you find their design pretty, they invite a sense of comfort in you. Characters don't have to be deep for them to be good. One of my personal favourite characters ever is Wammawink, who's a fucking pink fluffy alpaca lady mother figure that sings like an opera singer. Not exactly the most serious character, but she means a lot to me because she's fun, likable and just kinda comforting to me. You shouldn't enjoy characters because they're 3 dimensional masterclasses of story writing. You should enjoy characters because they're *fun* or *cool* or *likable*. Shadow's a cheesy edgelord, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
In response to "It's like a movie is poorly written because it has a few tropes you don't like. (Which sadly, people already do.)": I agree that it makes no sense to make an objective statement about the quality of a work based on your subjective preferences. But putting that aside, I think it's totally valid to hate a work subjectively based on its inclusion of particular tropes. Some tropes really do have the power to completely drag down your experience of the whole work, like the rightfully-maligned Women In Refrigerators trope. The inclusion of such a trope may not make the whole movie badly written (especially if the offending plot point can be cut out or replaced without changing the overall narrative), but the fact that it was ever used to begin with can tarnish your opinion with the rest of the work (again, ESPECIALLY if the offending plot point can be cut out or replaced without changing the overall narrative).
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter ok but like..."women in refrigerators" isn't a trope. just because tvtropes gave it a name and documented it doesnt mean its a trope. "women in refrigerators" basically means media where women are useless. that's not a trope, that''s legitimately just bad elements. at that point it's valid to hate a piece of work like that. that's not what i mean at all, i mean like, trashing a show for having a fart joke or something not that.
So, I kinda realized something after watching this. Being an edgelord doesn’t always mean being an asshole. Shadow was definitely always an edgy character, but SEGA misinterpreted that into making him an angsty jerk. It’s like how Sonic’s attitude makes him a “troublemaker” character, but he’s still the free-spirited hero of the series. At least, that’s what I got I from the whole Shadow controversy, anyway.
"Shadow being an edgelord is more interesting" So, how does the new interpretation being subjectively better than the old one then retroactively change the old, original intent?
I agree that Shadow is an edgelord and that him being an edgelord isn't necessarily a bad thing. But personally, my problem is that SEGA is _forcing_ this asshole-ish persona onto Shadow/the writers. We can argue day and night about how well it was executed, BUT we can both agree that Shadow had an arc in SA2, and 06 was the natural continuation. Again, execution aside. I understand why you might find that boring, but it's where it all lead to. So SEGA deliberately pushing for him to be more like Vegeta just doesn't work for me. No, I'm not kidding, they really are doing that. Just look at the IDW comic mandates that Ian Flynn has to deal with. "The characters aren't allowed to show too much emotion", "Shadow has to be an 'overconfident asshole rival akin to Vegeta", "Team Dark is no longer a thing. Shadow doesn't even consider them to be friends", etc. I paraphrased a little bit, but that is the jist. Now, to be fair, some of the mandates, like Knuckles only leaving Angel Island if it's absolutely necessary or the Chao having no gender are fine. But the ones mentioned previously are just _not good,_ not just for Sonic, but writing in general. It's even made Ian not want to write for Shadow all that much. "You don't really come into Sonic games for the story." That seems...kinda dismissive. There are people who legitimately go into Sonic games for the story. The Genesis games, sure, but after his 3D outing, both story and gameplay were the main selling point. Again, for the 3rd time, execution aside. You only need to look at how many people were excited about Ian Flynn being the writer for Sonic's next game. Even people who share your (for lack of a better term) apathy towards the stories say that hiring him is a step in the right direction. And even then, let's say that _nobody_ goes into Sonic games for the story. That doesn't really excuse the quality, does it? You call the world of Sonic a "Saturday Morning Cartoon", but, ironically enough, Sonic's _actual_ Saturday Morning Cartoon had a healthy balance of both being lighthearted and serious, which is why it's still the fan-favorite in many people's eyes even 20+ years later.
Sega owns Shadow, Shadow is not a real person and claiming that him being written a different way is being "forced" is a way to reframe the argument to say the same thing as Anthony, that the version of Shadow in the recent games is somehow inauthentic. Sure, Shadow is put under a lot of restrictions in the IDW comics, but I'm not talking about the IDW comics. I'm not saying that Sonic stories shouldn't be good but that they rarely are, execution matters because its execution decides whether you enjoy the story genuinely or whether you're going to enjoy laughing at it. Sure, it would be great if the Sonic games were written well but they haven't been.
@@LVoidtheEndless The point that I was trying to make is "If these restrictions exist with the comics, they most likely exist with the games". Is this conjecture on my end? Yes. But, at the same time, it really isn't an illogical conclusion to make. Why only restrict the storytelling aspect of medium whose main selling points are art and storytelling and not do the same thing to the medium whose main selling point is many other things, _plus_ storytelling? That just doesn't make sense to me. To me, Shadow went from "cool edgelord with some asshole-ish tendencies" to just "asshole edgelord". It's like if Sasuke was still a dick to Naruto in Boruto. Yes, the majority of the "asshole edgelord" comes from the spin-offs, but I'm only really OK with it in Boom because it's a different Shadow. As controversial as what I'm about to say is, I think that Forces was a step in the right direction for his character, from what little there is.
@@LVoidtheEndless have you never heard of a character being changed from who they were for no reason? like there's a reason terms like "flanderization" exist, when writers just take the parts people know from a character and making those, their only traits, it is a real thing and it's a thing people are right to not like, yeah you might not think that applies to shadow but you're basically saying that any character being changed for the worse with no explanation is not a problem
I'm not sre I agree with the conclussion that the Sonic franchise has to be enjoyed ironically. What if I think Sonic has good characters? What if I think some stories are good? Should we really just say "it's Sonic, you can't take Sonic seriously ever" like half the internet does? And I feel like there are better ways to improve on Shadow than making him a "lol he's so edgy, amirite?" joke. Self-awareness can be funny, but a lot of people like the Sonic series for how sincere it can be, even when it's flawed.
I've pretty much stopped participating in online Sonic fandom the past few years. As 2000s nostalgia has been on the rise, I've increasingly felt like I have, basically, no common ground with the people making the most noise. About 90% of what they talk about sounds like revisionist history to me. So, it's nice to see someone who gets it. Thank you!
Shadow has always been a dark character. The problem is him being a sociopath. In games ike 06, heroes, and SA2, he was more just trying to hide the pain by being mean, or even with the "it'll be a date to die for" but with Shadow the Hedgehog 05, he was a sociopath and feels less 3 dimensional because of that. Also you do realize that with the "it'll be a date to die for" Sonic literally responds with "hey that's my line."
"Uhh Shadow IS edgy because he has a sad dark backstory!!!" Literally ANY character has that, characters who AREN'T EDGELORDS! You aren't making the clever outsmarting point you think you are.
Yeah like Spider-Man. He has had his loving uncle shot down due to his own selfishness. And Peter is one of the most wholesome Marvel characters regardless. There's even a comic where Sandman is dieing and Spider-Man goes to him to comfort him. Sandman was one of his enemies and he still came to be there for him in his passing. An edgelord wouldn't do that.
I keep coming back to a line from SA2, where Shadow pridefully gloats "I'm the coolest!" That one line almost _defines_ Shadow for me, in how it seems to contrast with so much of his assumed character, despite being from his debut game (in the English version, anyways). I don't believe the modern characterization of Shadow would ever say a line like that.
I really liked Shadow as a kid, I just thought he was the "coolest character in the Sonic series" first time I saw him was in the Sonic X anime, but times has chanced for both me and the character, but i will never forget the "cool" times i had watching and playing Shadow the Hedgehog, (also Shadow the Hedgehog's soundtrack is metal af \m/)
I agree that Shadow has always been super edgy but I do like his ark in SA2 because it cements Gerald Robotnick as the main villain in SA2 which I like because they are a villain you can’t really do much about except for stopping the ARK because they already died a long time ago with all of the pieces for their plan set into place they just needed someone like Eggman to set it in motion
11:02 - I'm not sure if this was a deliberate part of the gag, but that reader you used completely butchered the pronunciation. It's actually SHEE-roh MA-eh-ka-wah. When you see a Japanese word or name transliterated into English, every vowel is pronounced out loud, and the pronunciation key is almost exactly the same as in Spanish. A as in bra, E as in bed, I as in chic, and O as in low. U is the only tricky one; it uses a really weird rounding that only shows up in a handful of languages. I personally pronounce a single U as in either 'put' or 'circus', and a double U (UU) as in 'rude'.
While Anthony didn't do a good job of proving shadow isn't an edge lord, you didn't do much better in proving he is an edge lord. Your main points seem to be that shadow's darker backstory, and more self serious attitude being marketed as cool is what makes him an edge lord, but those atributes can be applied to several fictional characters who are practically never called an edge lord( such a several incarnations of master splinter). The disconnect between you and earnest fans of shadow is that you appear to define edge lord as a character who's darker tendencies are suppose to make them cool to the audience; where as shadow fans see edge lords as characters who enjoy their angst as much as the audience( the "I only live to see you die" type of characters). I agree that shadow was meant to be cool because of his tragic persona, but bragging about taking candy from a baby is a little to on the nose.
Well, like I said in the video, it's not just that Shadow has a dark backstory, it's that he's a very dark and angsty character in a Sonic game, a video game for children about a blue hedgehog who saves the world with the power of friendship. Shadow wouldn't stand out if he were a Batman character or a nauto character but because he's standing next to characters like Cream the Rabbit and Big the Cat, he stands out more. It's the context that matters.
@@LVoidtheEndless I'd say he stand out a little bit( I can't really think of a batman villain who was a science experiment in space. That sounds more like a superman threat). Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the franchise went bizzarely dark( such as the echidnas warmongering and eventual massacre). The franchises obsession with what they think will appeal to kids have lead to storylines and characters that range from Saturday morning silliness, to jrpg melodrama.
@@LVoidtheEndless it's that he's a very dark and angsty character in a Sonic game, a video game for children about a blue hedgehog who saves the world with the power of friendship." Wow, using the blue hedgehog argument, seriously? So is Chaos also a very dark and angsty character since he killed off an entire civilisation? Is Eggman also edgy for burning forests that are filled with innocent animals(in S3&K). You're trying to simplify the Sonic series to a generic Saturday morning cartoon with that awful description, it's misleading and dishonest.
*You’re not even good enough to be my fake *can you argue that this wouldn’t be something that the hedgehog who says taking candy from a baby would say ?
"Ugh, I'm gonna make a whole lot of Sonic fans mad." Common misconception; anyone can make Sonic fans mad just by doing anything at all (like saying anything positive about Sonic Forces)
At this rate, going for the Shadow we envisioned in SA2 and 06 would be bordering on rebooting the franchise. Granted, I absolutely want that, but facts are facts.
I think you are misunderstanding the original video's criticism. The problem he has with Shadow is that he's way too much of an asshole now. Yes, perhaps the video could have done a better job distinguishing between "edgelord" and "asshole" traits. But considering the fact that most self described edge lords are also assholes, this feels like a distinction without a difference. Shadow has been egregiously Flanderized to be much more of an asshole and his already present edgy traits were just dialed up to 11 and that makes the character far less interesting.
You didn't really prove why shadow is an edgelord in the games where characters in depth is claiming he isn't. He might not have done a great job at proving his point but neither did you. You picked scenes with one liners you could spin as edgy, dropping all context to make your point more convincing. You didn't go indepth with scene analysis most I got from you is he's edgy because design and irony. You made me discredit this whole video at the end by saying none of the characters are good because they are from a game for children, that's genuinely a lazy argument. I laughed a bit but ironically I take the sonic stories more seriously than I can take this video.
“ If you want to live, you will keep the emeralds where they are. The fake emerald is good enough for you.” “My name is Shadow. I'm the world's ultimate life form. There's no time for games. Farewell.” “ I see. But you realise I can't let you live” “ Faker? I think you're the fake hedgehog around here. You're comparing yourself to me? Ha! You're not even good enough to be my fake”this is most of his lines in sa2 can you really say they aren’t edgy ?
After watching this. I still disagree that Shadow is an edgelord when it comes to his characterization Inv the Humphrey Era and Sonic 06, While true his character is messed with in his spinoff, it’s basically a choose your own morality game where depending on choices it dictates his mortality. So both yes and no While I do consider the Thornton and mordern era version of him to be an edgelord, but I consider those to be a bastardizations of his character I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree
To add to the problem with the Amy scene, Sonic X adapted this scene and Shadow wasn't smiling. He was indifferent, which is clearly the director's intent.
Sonic x season 3 metarex saga in my opinion is the best representation of how shadow can be an edge lord and still have a soft spot for people deep down. He’s an edge lord there but not to much as he’s seen caring about Molly because he sees her as another Maria
"It will be a date to DIE for" I don't...what- How does that MAKE or MEAN he's "edgy"!? Literally ANY character can say "die" but according to you "dats unleh en ejlurd ting" so it's wrong to say "die" in a kids game now? Saying "die" automatically makes and means you're an edgelord? By this dumbass' logic, SONIC should be an edgelord since he said "hell" in Secret Rings.
quality video. That shows appreciation to Shadow own game and proves his dark path actions aren’t as nutty or SOMEHOW OOC as people think considering if they really thought about him in SA2. Excluding Shadow and Eggman, SA2 kind of makes our main playable characters look terrible for not confronting the what learned of G.U.N.’s massacre and later on Firing at the professor in chains. It’s terrible that Rouge works with G.U.N. sometime after reading the diary and then Shadow does for 06.
How do you think Shadow is going to be portrayed in the third Sonic movie? The writers said that they're going to take elements from SA2 and Shadow's own game.
@@LVoidtheEndless Maybe because the game was written *in that language* and that the act of localizing a script could lead to drastic changes in said script???
Honestly I'm not knowledgeable enough about anything to argue with most of the points, _however_ I would like to defend the statement that him looking away when Mephiles is telling him about how the world will turn against him implies that he's conflicted/that Mephiles is getting to him in some way. You could interpret it a couple different ways, but the action to me does read like what Mephiles is saying is getting to him. Not necessarily in the sense that he agrees at all, but it is upsetting him. It's a bit more difficult to tell due to the lack of facial expressions, though. And also the statement that he was sombre when leaving Omega behind. Again, the lack of facial expressions, and single word response does make it difficult to tell for sure how he's feeling, but I think "he's feeling sombre" is a completely reasonable reading of that scene, and it isn't at all a stretch. To me, that definitely seems like the logical interpretation of that scene. On the whole I didn't really agree with this video (though I'm neither familiar enough with the franchise nor analytical enough to actually argue with it), but I did enjoy seeing a different viewpoint! Most of my knowledge of the franchise comes from analysis and discussion videos, and most of the ones I've seen have had a similar interpretation to Characters In-Depth, so it's nice seeing someone with a different take! Even if I mostly disagreed with it, it does give me some more perspective on his character. Also yeah, I also thought the whole "he smiled at her with a face that said 'What are you doing? (affectionate)'" thing was a stretch.
After watching that other video, I thought this video would be better... but no. Both videos make a statement and then bashes anything contradicting that using cherrypicked lines and reasons. I found this one worse with the cringe editing. There was a few times I thought this video was heading in an interesting direction, but then it just veers off into meme-speak and strange perspectives.
Okay. So I commented on his video a month late...so I'll do it to this one a month late...you did the opposite. He went too deep, you didn't go deep enough. Some of those interpretations you said he made up, I also got from Shadow in SA-06. Besides interpretations are ALL made up, acting like an interpretation is invalid if made up isn't a good take. Sure, characters in Sonic are mostly 1 or 2 note at best, and they serve rules as good characters for those regards. And while Shadow is edgey, he is still well and mostly consistent in the way he was written in the games for a long time. And yes, the extra edgy Shadow we have now isn't bad. It's basically the teen titans go of Sonic
To be fair "he made it up" is a bit of an oversimplification but what I'm actually saying is that his interpretations of the characters lack a sufficent amount of evidence. You can say "Shadow and Silver have a mentor relationship" but where can the audience actually see this in the cutscenes of the game and a lot of his interpretations are *Shadow looks at the ground* "this means that Shadow is conflicted." I like his interpretations of the character but his readings are based off of very little evidence.
tldr: L rambles about Anthony being a butthurt idealist about Shadow not being edgy the hedgy, and might I add this would be fun to do in objection.lol
@@dashiethebunny No. I already know what it’s going to be about. The arguments will be poorly constructed, and people will just clap their hands without thinking
@@gerbalskerbal766 Kinda funny you call out the person for making this video despite not watching it, and later calling out people for clapping without thinking critically. Sounds like coping.
Retrospective notes:
- In the original japanese script for the game it says that Shadow was brainwashed by Gerald Robotnick into almost causing the end of the world so that's a minus for the translation team.
It also doesn't disprove my take that this would make the story worse as Shadow's actions aren't informed by rightous vengence and anger, he was just tricked into it which robs him of his angency in the story so that's a minus for the writing team.
- I should clarify that when I say "he's making this up" a better way to have phrased this is that a lot of Anthony's interpretation have very little evidence backing them up, he can say "Shadow and Silver have a mentor-mentee dynamic" but if that isn't demonstrated to the audience in a cohesive way, then the interpretation doesn't hold any water.
- After researching a little bit more I've learned that Shadow is tightly controlled by SEGA in terms of writing, particularly in the comics. (and this is something enforced, to the best of my knowledge, outside of the Ken Penders thing) Which sucks especially for writers who would want to take this character in a different direction but I don't think that the direction that Anthony and other Sonic fans have in mind is particularly interesting because...
- Shadow in Sonic 06 is a boring character, as is everyone in that game. He is generically good like Sonic except he is occasionally moody. His motivations are boring and nothing is really added to the character, there is that thing where Mephilis says that "the humans will betray him" but he never seems to really consider this all that much, none of his actions change because of that piece of information.
Except no. Gerald says that he CONTROLS Shadow's memories. He says that he controls Shadow's memories, but he never said what he did with his memories. It's only this way if you WANT it this way.
This entire video is a paragon example of 'bad faith'. Shadow didn't 'forget' Maria's wish. He flat-out suppressed it. I thought 'false memory syndrome' is common knowledge at this point, but I guess I was wrong...............
I mean, if you think being a moody good guy is boring then I guess you really must not like Batman or Batman-type characters. Lots of people love this type of character for a reason. But you do you.
You're joking right!?
That's why Sonic forces should've taken that direction with Infinite.
Infinite should've framed Shadow with the Phantom Ruby and then Have G.u.n, sonic and friends after him and then Have Omega be the Final boss like what omega said about being the one capturing Shadow. Fight him as Shadow and rouge to get the last Chaos emeralds to fight the Phantom ruby.
"You took my squads Life, now I shall take the very people you once considered friends and turn them against you to take your life"
Bro 🤣 this MF doesn't know Shadow AT ALL. He literally gets so much wrong in a SINGLE comment. This entire "response" is a fuckin joke.
I think terms like Edgelord have such a bad stigma or reputation with them, that people automatically hear it and assume it automatically means "bad". Which is really frustrating to be honest. There's so many characters that are great or likable, but because they have elements that some people don't like, it automatically means "this is a bad character." It's like saying a movie is poorly written because it has a few tropes you don't like. (Which sadly, people already do.)
Addendum: A character doesn't have to be masterfully written or even that "good" for your enjoyment of them to be valid. You can enjoy characters for a multitude of reasons. Because you find them funny, you think they're sweet or likable, you find their design pretty, they invite a sense of comfort in you. Characters don't have to be deep for them to be good. One of my personal favourite characters ever is Wammawink, who's a fucking pink fluffy alpaca lady mother figure that sings like an opera singer. Not exactly the most serious character, but she means a lot to me because she's fun, likable and just kinda comforting to me. You shouldn't enjoy characters because they're 3 dimensional masterclasses of story writing. You should enjoy characters because they're *fun* or *cool* or *likable*.
Shadow's a cheesy edgelord, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
In response to "It's like a movie is poorly written because it has a few tropes you don't like. (Which sadly, people already do.)":
I agree that it makes no sense to make an objective statement about the quality of a work based on your subjective preferences. But putting that aside, I think it's totally valid to hate a work subjectively based on its inclusion of particular tropes. Some tropes really do have the power to completely drag down your experience of the whole work, like the rightfully-maligned Women In Refrigerators trope. The inclusion of such a trope may not make the whole movie badly written (especially if the offending plot point can be cut out or replaced without changing the overall narrative), but the fact that it was ever used to begin with can tarnish your opinion with the rest of the work (again, ESPECIALLY if the offending plot point can be cut out or replaced without changing the overall narrative).
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter ok but like..."women in refrigerators" isn't a trope. just because tvtropes gave it a name and documented it doesnt mean its a trope. "women in refrigerators" basically means media where women are useless. that's not a trope, that''s legitimately just bad elements. at that point it's valid to hate a piece of work like that. that's not what i mean at all, i mean like, trashing a show for having a fart joke or something not that.
@@dashiethebunny What do you define as a trope?
Stigma balls
So, I kinda realized something after watching this. Being an edgelord doesn’t always mean being an asshole.
Shadow was definitely always an edgy character, but SEGA misinterpreted that into making him an angsty jerk. It’s like how Sonic’s attitude makes him a “troublemaker” character, but he’s still the free-spirited hero of the series. At least, that’s what I got I from the whole Shadow controversy, anyway.
👆yIS
Which I HATE, because how would be the same hedgehog loved if he was like all Short tempered loner?
Shadow lost that angst when he left Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, and became EDGEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! in Shadow the Hedgehog game : D
"Shadow being an edgelord is more interesting" So, how does the new interpretation being subjectively better than the old one then retroactively change the old, original intent?
I agree that Shadow is an edgelord and that him being an edgelord isn't necessarily a bad thing.
But personally, my problem is that SEGA is _forcing_ this asshole-ish persona onto Shadow/the writers.
We can argue day and night about how well it was executed, BUT we can both agree that Shadow had an arc in SA2, and 06 was the natural continuation.
Again, execution aside.
I understand why you might find that boring, but it's where it all lead to.
So SEGA deliberately pushing for him to be more like Vegeta just doesn't work for me.
No, I'm not kidding, they really are doing that.
Just look at the IDW comic mandates that Ian Flynn has to deal with.
"The characters aren't allowed to show too much emotion",
"Shadow has to be an 'overconfident asshole rival akin to Vegeta",
"Team Dark is no longer a thing. Shadow doesn't even consider them to be friends", etc.
I paraphrased a little bit, but that is the jist.
Now, to be fair, some of the mandates, like Knuckles only leaving Angel Island if it's absolutely necessary or the Chao having no gender are fine.
But the ones mentioned previously are just _not good,_ not just for Sonic, but writing in general.
It's even made Ian not want to write for Shadow all that much.
"You don't really come into Sonic games for the story."
That seems...kinda dismissive.
There are people who legitimately go into Sonic games for the story.
The Genesis games, sure, but after his 3D outing, both story and gameplay were the main selling point.
Again, for the 3rd time, execution aside.
You only need to look at how many people were excited about Ian Flynn being the writer for Sonic's next game.
Even people who share your (for lack of a better term) apathy towards the stories say that hiring him is a step in the right direction.
And even then, let's say that _nobody_ goes into Sonic games for the story.
That doesn't really excuse the quality, does it?
You call the world of Sonic a "Saturday Morning Cartoon", but, ironically enough, Sonic's _actual_ Saturday Morning Cartoon had a healthy balance of both being lighthearted and serious, which is why it's still the fan-favorite in many people's eyes even 20+ years later.
Sega owns Shadow, Shadow is not a real person and claiming that him being written a different way is being "forced" is a way to reframe the argument to say the same thing as Anthony, that the version of Shadow in the recent games is somehow inauthentic.
Sure, Shadow is put under a lot of restrictions in the IDW comics, but I'm not talking about the IDW comics.
I'm not saying that Sonic stories shouldn't be good but that they rarely are, execution matters because its execution decides whether you enjoy the story genuinely or whether you're going to enjoy laughing at it. Sure, it would be great if the Sonic games were written well but they haven't been.
@@LVoidtheEndless
The point that I was trying to make is "If these restrictions exist with the comics, they most likely exist with the games".
Is this conjecture on my end?
Yes.
But, at the same time, it really isn't an illogical conclusion to make.
Why only restrict the storytelling aspect of medium whose main selling points are art and storytelling and not do the same thing to the medium whose main selling point is many other things, _plus_ storytelling?
That just doesn't make sense to me.
To me, Shadow went from "cool edgelord with some asshole-ish tendencies" to just "asshole edgelord".
It's like if Sasuke was still a dick to Naruto in Boruto.
Yes, the majority of the "asshole edgelord" comes from the spin-offs, but I'm only really OK with it in Boom because it's a different Shadow.
As controversial as what I'm about to say is, I think that Forces was a step in the right direction for his character, from what little there is.
@@LVoidtheEndless have you never heard of a character being changed from who they were for no reason? like there's a reason terms like "flanderization" exist, when writers just take the parts people know from a character and making those, their only traits, it is a real thing and it's a thing people are right to not like, yeah you might not think that applies to shadow but you're basically saying that any character being changed for the worse with no explanation is not a problem
@@albanalka9502
Almost as if this is a 30+ year old franchise or something
@@TacoManX9 I can't really tell if you're agreeing or not with me
I'm not sre I agree with the conclussion that the Sonic franchise has to be enjoyed ironically. What if I think Sonic has good characters? What if I think some stories are good? Should we really just say "it's Sonic, you can't take Sonic seriously ever" like half the internet does?
And I feel like there are better ways to improve on Shadow than making him a "lol he's so edgy, amirite?" joke. Self-awareness can be funny, but a lot of people like the Sonic series for how sincere it can be, even when it's flawed.
ditto
Yeah you can tell this dude isn't a fan of sonic at all.
Still EDGY
@@yungmuney5903 still edgy
@@reggielacey2235 🤓🤓🤓
I've pretty much stopped participating in online Sonic fandom the past few years. As 2000s nostalgia has been on the rise, I've increasingly felt like I have, basically, no common ground with the people making the most noise. About 90% of what they talk about sounds like revisionist history to me. So, it's nice to see someone who gets it. Thank you!
Shadow has always been a dark character. The problem is him being a sociopath. In games ike 06, heroes, and SA2, he was more just trying to hide the pain by being mean, or even with the "it'll be a date to die for" but with Shadow the Hedgehog 05, he was a sociopath and feels less 3 dimensional because of that.
Also you do realize that with the "it'll be a date to die for" Sonic literally responds with "hey that's my line."
15:52 actually the brainwashed thing is referenced in japanese dub of sa2 by gerald stating that he has complete control over shadow's memories
"Uhh Shadow IS edgy because he has a sad dark backstory!!!"
Literally ANY character has that, characters who AREN'T EDGELORDS! You aren't making the clever outsmarting point you think you are.
Yeah like Spider-Man. He has had his loving uncle shot down due to his own selfishness. And Peter is one of the most wholesome Marvel characters regardless. There's even a comic where Sandman is dieing and Spider-Man goes to him to comfort him. Sandman was one of his enemies and he still came to be there for him in his passing. An edgelord wouldn't do that.
He made a lot more points than that, you just didn’t understand.
I'VE COME TO MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT. SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG IS AN EDGELORD AND THATS OKAY.
Good vid, man. Have a sub.
I keep coming back to a line from SA2, where Shadow pridefully gloats "I'm the coolest!" That one line almost _defines_ Shadow for me, in how it seems to contrast with so much of his assumed character, despite being from his debut game (in the English version, anyways). I don't believe the modern characterization of Shadow would ever say a line like that.
I just woke up and watched this. Today is a good day.
i know my brains broken when i see the cutscenes in this video manage to only hear the snapcube fandubs audio playing over them
Lmao!
Shadow can be both an edgelord and the nuanced hero capable of compassion he bespoke of lmao.
I really liked Shadow as a kid, I just thought he was the "coolest character in the Sonic series" first time I saw him was in the Sonic X anime, but times has chanced for both me and the character, but i will never forget the "cool" times i had watching and playing Shadow the Hedgehog, (also Shadow the Hedgehog's soundtrack is metal af \m/)
I agree that Shadow has always been super edgy but I do like his ark in SA2 because it cements Gerald Robotnick as the main villain in SA2 which I like because they are a villain you can’t really do much about except for stopping the ARK because they already died a long time ago with all of the pieces for their plan set into place they just needed someone like Eggman to set it in motion
Not edgy.
11:02 - I'm not sure if this was a deliberate part of the gag, but that reader you used completely butchered the pronunciation. It's actually SHEE-roh MA-eh-ka-wah.
When you see a Japanese word or name transliterated into English, every vowel is pronounced out loud, and the pronunciation key is almost exactly the same as in Spanish. A as in bra, E as in bed, I as in chic, and O as in low.
U is the only tricky one; it uses a really weird rounding that only shows up in a handful of languages. I personally pronounce a single U as in either 'put' or 'circus', and a double U (UU) as in 'rude'.
I think he's just an introvert
While Anthony didn't do a good job of proving shadow isn't an edge lord, you didn't do much better in proving he is an edge lord. Your main points seem to be that shadow's darker backstory, and more self serious attitude being marketed as cool is what makes him an edge lord, but those atributes can be applied to several fictional characters who are practically never called an edge lord( such a several incarnations of master splinter).
The disconnect between you and earnest fans of shadow is that you appear to define edge lord as a character who's darker tendencies are suppose to make them cool to the audience; where as shadow fans see edge lords as characters who enjoy their angst as much as the audience( the "I only live to see you die" type of characters). I agree that shadow was meant to be cool because of his tragic persona, but bragging about taking candy from a baby is a little to on the nose.
Well, like I said in the video, it's not just that Shadow has a dark backstory, it's that he's a very dark and angsty character in a Sonic game, a video game for children about a blue hedgehog who saves the world with the power of friendship. Shadow wouldn't stand out if he were a Batman character or a nauto character but because he's standing next to characters like Cream the Rabbit and Big the Cat, he stands out more.
It's the context that matters.
@@LVoidtheEndless I'd say he stand out a little bit( I can't really think of a batman villain who was a science experiment in space. That sounds more like a superman threat). Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the franchise went bizzarely dark( such as the echidnas warmongering and eventual massacre). The franchises obsession with what they think will appeal to kids have lead to storylines and characters that range from Saturday morning silliness, to jrpg melodrama.
@@LVoidtheEndless it's that he's a very dark and angsty character in a Sonic game, a video game for children about a blue hedgehog who saves the world with the power of friendship."
Wow, using the blue hedgehog argument, seriously? So is Chaos also a very dark and angsty character since he killed off an entire civilisation? Is Eggman also edgy for burning forests that are filled with innocent animals(in S3&K). You're trying to simplify the Sonic series to a generic Saturday morning cartoon with that awful description, it's misleading and dishonest.
Ok kid
*You’re not even good enough to be my fake *can you argue that this wouldn’t be something that the hedgehog who says taking candy from a baby would say ?
"Ugh, I'm gonna make a whole lot of Sonic fans mad."
Common misconception; anyone can make Sonic fans mad just by doing anything at all (like saying anything positive about Sonic Forces)
Theme of infinite is a fun edgy as fuck rock tune.
I liked Forces.
@@MxPokirby good for you
just like any other fans in any kind of fandom
You sure? Try saying Final Fantasy 6 sucks online. See how much angry fanboys you will stirr by saying that : D
At this rate, going for the Shadow we envisioned in SA2 and 06 would be bordering on rebooting the franchise.
Granted, I absolutely want that, but facts are facts.
I think you are misunderstanding the original video's criticism. The problem he has with Shadow is that he's way too much of an asshole now. Yes, perhaps the video could have done a better job distinguishing between "edgelord" and "asshole" traits. But considering the fact that most self described edge lords are also assholes, this feels like a distinction without a difference.
Shadow has been egregiously Flanderized to be much more of an asshole and his already present edgy traits were just dialed up to 11 and that makes the character far less interesting.
You didn't really prove why shadow is an edgelord in the games where characters in depth is claiming he isn't. He might not have done a great job at proving his point but neither did you. You picked scenes with one liners you could spin as edgy, dropping all context to make your point more convincing. You didn't go indepth with scene analysis most I got from you is he's edgy because design and irony. You made me discredit this whole video at the end by saying none of the characters are good because they are from a game for children, that's genuinely a lazy argument. I laughed a bit but ironically I take the sonic stories more seriously than I can take this video.
“ If you want to live, you will keep the emeralds where they are. The fake emerald is good enough for you.”
“My name is Shadow. I'm the world's ultimate life form. There's no time for games. Farewell.”
“ I see. But you realise I can't let you live”
“ Faker? I think you're the fake hedgehog around here. You're comparing yourself to me? Ha! You're not even good enough to be my fake”this is most of his lines in sa2 can you really say they aren’t edgy ?
@@2ndspringtube708 that's when he was a villain
After watching this. I still disagree that Shadow is an edgelord when it comes to his characterization Inv the Humphrey Era and Sonic 06,
While true his character is messed with in his spinoff, it’s basically a choose your own morality game where depending on choices it dictates his mortality. So both yes and no
While I do consider the Thornton and mordern era version of him to be an edgelord, but I consider those to be a bastardizations of his character
I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree
“Making stuff up” I think it’s just how he see stuff and not making it even if it’s not true people have different point of views so yeah
Not edgy. Sonic Boom’s version of Shadow is the edgelord.
He always was EDGY
@@reggielacey2235No He WASN'T
To add to the problem with the Amy scene, Sonic X adapted this scene and Shadow wasn't smiling. He was indifferent, which is clearly the director's intent.
shadOW THE hEDGEhog
It's literally in the name.
ow the edge 💀
Sonic x season 3 metarex saga in my opinion is the best representation of how shadow can be an edge lord and still have a soft spot for people deep down. He’s an edge lord there but not to much as he’s seen caring about Molly because he sees her as another Maria
"It will be a date to DIE for"
I don't...what- How does that MAKE or MEAN he's "edgy"!? Literally ANY character can say "die" but according to you "dats unleh en ejlurd ting" so it's wrong to say "die" in a kids game now? Saying "die" automatically makes and means you're an edgelord? By this dumbass' logic, SONIC should be an edgelord since he said "hell" in Secret Rings.
quality video. That shows appreciation to Shadow own game and proves his dark path actions aren’t as nutty or SOMEHOW OOC as people think considering if they really thought about him in SA2. Excluding Shadow and Eggman, SA2 kind of makes our main playable characters look terrible for not confronting the what learned of G.U.N.’s massacre and later on Firing at the professor in chains. It’s terrible that Rouge works with G.U.N. sometime after reading the diary and then Shadow does for 06.
I love this video so much.
16:55 - Oh, and I'm pretty sure the word you were looking for was "self-indulgent"
It’s 2 in the morning and I’m watching this
no regrets
How do you think Shadow is going to be portrayed in the third Sonic movie? The writers said that they're going to take elements from SA2 and Shadow's own game.
POV you only watch the english version and dont know what ptsd is
Why would I play a Sonic game in a different language than my own?
@@LVoidtheEndless Simple, because oftentimes, dubs are inferior to the original script. The lines are just a lot better in Japanese.
@@LVoidtheEndless Maybe because the game was written *in that language* and that the act of localizing a script could lead to drastic changes in said script???
@@LVoidtheEndless Because shadow the hedgehog was the last game in which the localization was shit
i didn't expect this kind of video from the Deltarune Memes guy
Honestly I'm not knowledgeable enough about anything to argue with most of the points, _however_ I would like to defend the statement that him looking away when Mephiles is telling him about how the world will turn against him implies that he's conflicted/that Mephiles is getting to him in some way.
You could interpret it a couple different ways, but the action to me does read like what Mephiles is saying is getting to him. Not necessarily in the sense that he agrees at all, but it is upsetting him. It's a bit more difficult to tell due to the lack of facial expressions, though.
And also the statement that he was sombre when leaving Omega behind. Again, the lack of facial expressions, and single word response does make it difficult to tell for sure how he's feeling, but I think "he's feeling sombre" is a completely reasonable reading of that scene, and it isn't at all a stretch. To me, that definitely seems like the logical interpretation of that scene.
On the whole I didn't really agree with this video (though I'm neither familiar enough with the franchise nor analytical enough to actually argue with it), but I did enjoy seeing a different viewpoint! Most of my knowledge of the franchise comes from analysis and discussion videos, and most of the ones I've seen have had a similar interpretation to Characters In-Depth, so it's nice seeing someone with a different take! Even if I mostly disagreed with it, it does give me some more perspective on his character.
Also yeah, I also thought the whole "he smiled at her with a face that said 'What are you doing? (affectionate)'" thing was a stretch.
L Void out here with L takes.
W takes
Wrong
@@reggielacey2235No
@@lukescrew1981No
@@cameussmith Yeah
I was never a sonic fan and I always call him “tacky kids trying to be trendy”
2010 SEGA was the true villain
After watching that other video, I thought this video would be better... but no. Both videos make a statement and then bashes anything contradicting that using cherrypicked lines and reasons. I found this one worse with the cringe editing. There was a few times I thought this video was heading in an interesting direction, but then it just veers off into meme-speak and strange perspectives.
Shadow used to be my favorite chater because of shadow the hedgehog the game now hes my favorite because hes feckin funny
he was definitely an edgelord but I do think that recent media like the idw have turned his edginess up a little too high
Okay. So I commented on his video a month late...so I'll do it to this one a month late...you did the opposite. He went too deep, you didn't go deep enough.
Some of those interpretations you said he made up, I also got from Shadow in SA-06. Besides interpretations are ALL made up, acting like an interpretation is invalid if made up isn't a good take.
Sure, characters in Sonic are mostly 1 or 2 note at best, and they serve rules as good characters for those regards.
And while Shadow is edgey, he is still well and mostly consistent in the way he was written in the games for a long time.
And yes, the extra edgy Shadow we have now isn't bad. It's basically the teen titans go of Sonic
To be fair "he made it up" is a bit of an oversimplification but what I'm actually saying is that his interpretations of the characters lack a sufficent amount of evidence. You can say "Shadow and Silver have a mentor relationship" but where can the audience actually see this in the cutscenes of the game and a lot of his interpretations are *Shadow looks at the ground* "this means that Shadow is conflicted."
I like his interpretations of the character but his readings are based off of very little evidence.
I was working on a model in blender while having this video run in the background and...10:27 made me laugh so hard I accidentally closed blender 😂😭😭
Really?
Idc what anyone says Shadow is an edgelord and I love him for it
have you read "treasure team tango" weirdly enough that's my favorite version of shadow
Love the video, even if I don't agree with the conclusion. I respect it, but still.
I'm @n Emo,Gothic EDGELORD
I loved the shadow from adventures and hereos, also sonic x
tldr: L rambles about Anthony being a butthurt idealist about Shadow not being edgy the hedgy, and might I add this would be fun to do in objection.lol
i mean he does have ptsd
That isn't ok lol
me love shadoq
not an edgelrod but ihim
I ruined the 333 likes 😈
No. It’s NOT ok. Sega turned him into something he never was
watch the video
@@dashiethebunny No. I already know what it’s going to be about. The arguments will be poorly constructed, and people will just clap their hands without thinking
@@gerbalskerbal766 someone has confirmation bias
@@gerbalskerbal766 then why are commenting in the first place, giving it a small boost for the algorithm?
@@gerbalskerbal766 Kinda funny you call out the person for making this video despite not watching it, and later calling out people for clapping without thinking critically.
Sounds like coping.
Amy is a bad character
I mean I like Amy but yeah she does have a bunch of flaws