I believe in sola scriptura that the bible is complete, and that it is our main authority, I do not consider dreams or visions to be scripture, but they can, and should be backed by scripture before it can be considered a true vision
The difference between Eastern and Western thinking. Many many Muslims are coming to Christ and they report He came to them in dreams. Both Jesus and Paul said believers will do miracles. Ergo our Commander in Chief is a continuationist.
@@Frost_actual Exactly. Also, many of these reports are just preposterous and demonstrably false - sensationalistic reports that have no way to be verified. If you know the Scriptures, you know that God does not operate that way. His truth is not based in a subjective experience, but in verifiable historical truth. Christ rose in history and appeared physically to hundreds of eyewitnesses.
@@boom7star731 See, you’re completely wrong. I asked about miracles, not works. Jesus performed miracles that we cannot perform. He raised himself from the grave, for example - oh, and he created the heavens and the earth. Have you done that? No? I thought so.
there’s a common smugness that seems to accompany the Calvinist and Cessationist. Ie “if you don’t arrive at the same historically debated and diversely concluded doctrinal position as me, then you just haven’t matured in the Lord as much as we have yet”
Conversely cessationists are the ones who have not really matured much because you can tell by how they interact and treat people. There's a lot of fruit of the spirit missing
@@timwadley948There’s fruit of the spirit missing because they don’t babble incoherently and call it the Holy Spirit? I have attended non-charismatic churches for over 40 years. I have witnessed much fruit. Much selfless giving, serving with humble hearts, joyful praise and worship, passionate ministry to the unsaved, sound teaching and preaching from God’s word, modesty, strong witness for Jesus, etc. That is not indicative of an absence of spiritual fruit. You are making an uncharitable generalization.
@@Open2Reason Likewise - I've seen so much fruit and Biblical gifting exercised within my church resulting in the growth of our relationship with God and countless others being reached with the Gospel. I also attended a more charismatic church in my past, and experienced the same - lots of good came from from that body. No denomination has a corner on the spiritual market, though. And there seems to be many who seem obsessed with certain spiritual gifts while missing sound doctrinal teaching (and the converse could be said as well). Not all will speak in tongues. I never have, and rather enjoy being able to understand what I say and pray, but that's just me. If the Holy Spirit never chooses to enable me to do that, that's fine! There's no requirement that we all do it, and it's unbiblical to suggest otherwise. Blessings!
@@boom7star731 The OP is of the mistaken opinion that Cessationists deny the Holy Spirit because “they are well lettered…” meaning that we study the Scriptures “but (we) reject the Holy Spirit.” This is demonstrably false, and you have pretty much stated the same thing. The truth of the matter is that we reject attempts to claim apostolic authority in the present day, because Scripture makes it quite clear that apostolic authority - given to the apostles by Jesus and empowered through the Holy Spirit, has ceased to be present among men, but continues in the authority of the Holy Spirit inspired written word of God. This is demonstrably true by a clear reading of the Scriptures. In another thread you demonstrated that you lack an ability to exegete the Scriptures by claiming that Jesus commands all Christians to miraculously heal the sick and to drive out demons in Matthew 10; when the context of the passage clearly stated in verse 5 is that Jesus was talking exclusively to the apostles, and not to all Christians. (to be continued)….
…. So how do we know that the Holy Spirit breathed authority of the apostles has been left to us in the Scriptures alone? Because the apostles themselves told us so in the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures, and Jesus told those very same apostles that they would be given this authority, and power in the form of apostolic gifts. Not only is Matthew 10 a testimony to this, but also John 14:25-26, Acts 1:1-8, 2 Peter 1:16-21, and 2 Timothy 3 (the entire chapter). So to claim that we deny the Holy Spirit is an empty charge when you consider these things. But Cessationists do not even deny the Holy Spirit’s other work. He still heals. He still convicts us of sin, and guides us into all truth. He is our comforter, and directs us to Jesus and the truth of his gospel. So saying that we reject the Holy Spirit is a demonstrable lie; and lies are definitely not of God.
@@Open2Reason yes, the Holy Spirit still heals however, He does it by the laying on of hands and His gifts. He also still prophesies today through His sons. You forget that that Holy Spirit lives in us with all His power and gifts and abilities. Let Him manifest through you. Why would God give the gifts and then take them away 50 years later? Cessationists also say that the Holy Spirit doesnt give dreams or visions or prophesy today. Not only does the Holy Spirit speak to our hearts but He also speaks through us as the Scripture says it is not you who speak but the Holy Spirit speaking through you.
@@spod11 “He(Holy Spirit) does it (healing) by the laying on of hands and his gifts.” It sounds like what you’re saying is that this is the only way the Spirit heals. Are you sure about that? How about: [14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.] James 5:14-15 ESV It seems as though the Holy Spirit isn’t at all limited to acting only according to us first acting by the laying on of hands. He will heal if we pray for him to heal. I’ve also heard reports of him healing even without a prayer - the person had faith, and in his sovereignty, God healed him. I hear reports of this all the time. But you’re saying “no, we must lay hands on him first.” But that’s clearly not what the Scriptures say. I mean why limit God to our control? He hasn’t so limited himself. “He also prophesies today through His sons.” See, I believe that there is a Scriptural standard for prophecy, and it’s given to us in several passages of Scripture. First from Proverbs 30: [5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.] Proverbs 30:5-6 ESV Other translations state “pure” in place of “proves true” - as in the purity of refined gold. It’s been tested, and proven to be pure. God’s word can be tested for its purity, because God never lies. When he says he’s going to do something, he does it. That’s why we can trust him like we would trust a shield in battle. But man’s word is not pure. It’s not proved true necessarily. We cannot take it at face value like we can take God’s word, because while the man might be claiming to be speaking the words of God (prophecy), he might be merely attempting to add to God’s word things that God has not said, proving himself to be a liar. So with that in mind, the Standard for testing if a claimed prophecy IS in fact from God, Scripture points is to the prophet who would come (Jesus), and contrasts him with the false prophet by demonstrating that the false prophet’s words cannot be proven, and therefore, cannot be trusted: [21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’- 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.] Deuteronomy 18:21-22 ESV So the standard is undeniable proof that the word came from God, and not from man - since only God is omniscient, and knows the future. So if a person claims prophecy, and is not 100% correct in what he claims, he is by the biblical standard, a proven false prophet. Thus anyone who claims to have the gift of prophecy, then claims that a particular event will happen with certain detail - if that person is not 100% correct in what he/she is claiming, this alone proves him/her a liar, and a false prophet. The Bible sets a high bar, because false prophecy is blasphemy - it claims that God is a liar. I simply do not believe there is a person alive today who meets this biblical standard. “You forgot that the Holy Spirit lives in us…” No I didn’t. I simply believe that supernatural claims must be proven by the biblical standard. If any modern claim has in fact been proven by the biblical standard we would know about it, because Christians who actually witnessed the proof would be shouting it from the rooftops. We don’t see any of that kind of proof today. “… with all His power and gifts and abilities.” Not so. He has not left us with the gifts of the apostles (genuine biblical tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge). Everything that is relevant to these gifts is provided for us in the words of Scripture, which the apostles oversaw. See John 14:25-26 if you have doubts about this. Jesus gave the apostles words of knowledge, and the ability to recall everything he said to them. Also, Hebrews 1:1-3 tells us that God no longer speaks to us through fresh revelation by prophets, but only through His Son - and Jesus is His Son, who gave these abilities exclusively to His apostles so the Scriptures could be written. “Let Him manifest through you.” Yeah, I believe He wants me to bear fruit: [22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.] Galatians 5:22-26 ESV “Why would God give the gifts and then take them away 50 years later?” I’m glad you asked that question. It shows that you’re interested in reason, and reasonable explanations for why God does what He does. I would toss that back at you and ask “why not?” Perhaps there’s a reason he would limit the gifts (not all of them certainly) to certain people at a certain period of time. Scripture seems to suggest that He has done just that: John 14:25-26 (again) The apostles were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ ministry. So he chose them for a specific purpose - to be his witnesses: [2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”] Acts 1:2-5 ESV [7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”] Acts 1:7-8 ESV The theme of the apostles being eyewitnesses permeates all 4 gospels, and is saturated into the apostles’ writing. For instance: [16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.] 2 Peter 1:16-21 ESV There’s that biblical standard for prophecy once again. Peter, James and John were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ transfiguration - and that fact proves the prophetic word - it makes it not just certain, but more certain - I.e., without a reasonable doubt. So the apostles’ witness was extremely important to Jesus, and his choosing of the 12 is mentioned in one way or another in all 4 gospels, and in a very prominent way, they are with him throughout the narratives. And the only way that their witness reached the “ends of the earth” was through the preaching of their words - the gospel - found in the Scriptures. I agree with you that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts - but He does this through the Scriptures, and not apart from them. There is no new revelation, and believing that there is is very dangerous, because it leads people astray from the gospel. Throughout the history of the church, deceivers (cultists) have introduced new revelation, which in some way(s) denies and/or obscures who Christ is, and what he has done. So I completely disagree with you that the Holy Spirit speaks today through believers. That is not the Holy Spirit, but some other spirit.
Cessationist saying that we value dreams, prophecy, visions over the written word of God is the equivalent of us saying that cessationist don’t believe the Holy Spirit moves at all anymore… So maybe go to the word of God instead of speculating… 1 Corinthians 14:1 [1] Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
"Prophesying" in general is speaking the Word of God. If you utter something that's not contained within Scripture, or have taken it out of context to imply a different meaning than intended in Scripture, then you are not prophesying. Hebrews 1:1-2 [1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, .... "In these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." not the prophets. We have no need of the prophets now that we have the Word of God Himself speaking to us through Scripture. That's not to say that God through the Holy Spirit won't give you some guidance or intuition about something from time to time, but that's not prophecy.
There is not a single scriptural argument for the cessasionist position which is why cessasionists resort to ad hominiem attacks rather than biblical arguments
@@nonamesthesame From your logic, 1 Corinthians 13:8 says Knowledge will vanish away. Has knowledge ceased?? Secondly, it says they shall cease. My question is when?? Show me from the Bible the date it ceased 😂 You cessationists are funny
@@Aninetehradactul "Making you a Herectic is not as hominem." The one who goes about calling one a Herectic for no reason is the Herectic and is attacking strawman and ad hominems 🥱🤧
@@raphaelfeneje486 I’m not sure why I said making. I think I meant “calling”. It’s not ad hominem. You are what you believe, and if you believe in modern gifts of prophecy and the like, that makes you a heretic.
That’s a great question. They don’t always. Calvary chapel is a good example of that. But I have noticed too that there is a high percentage of continuationist sects that allow for women “pastors”
@@Mesa_Mike yeah. They definitely are. Not all calvarys folow the same structure, but - they use a slogan related to matters of the Spirit, that “the Bible is their seatbelt.” I like that… helps protect against abuses of the Spirit.
Lord please help me not get so easily enraged and so frustrated when I listen to people holistically discount continuism by categorize all continuists in this manner. Help us both to try to look on one another with eyes of grace. I pray in Jesus’ Name, amen.
Talk about cessationism in india you'll be excommunicated because every one of us in our churches here are 1st generation christians and that too because God is working miracles, healings, prophecies and other great works in all of our lives otherwise no one would come to christ in india that how strong the people are here in India, Holy Spirit is working always everywhere and everytime in all these 2000 years that's why Christianity still exists because God exists and is working through his Holy Spirit in all the church history
Phil Johnson is wrong for backing these guys up. Completely disobeying the commandment of secondary separation. But then again, they let John Piper into their church, so there you go.
Cessationists have cut and pasted their Bibles and are not adhering to Sola scriptura on the Holy Spirit baptism (an experience post-salvation) and ALL of the gifts not ceasing until "that which is perfect is come" and "but then face to face" and "then shall I know even as I am known" (1 Cor. 13:7-12). This passage directly tells us when the gifts will cease. I am going to follow Paul's command to "quench not the Spirit" and "despise not prophesyings" (1 Thess. 5:19-20) and "covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39.) and to "covet earnestly the best gifts" and "especially that ye may prophesy" (1 Cor. 12:31 and 1 Cor. 14:1). Sola scriptura. Have ye never read?! You are doing the exact thing that you accuse us Bible believers of doing; not valuing scripture above all else! This is hilariously ironic and the height of hypocrisy.
Questions for Mr Todd friel .if cessatiinists belive all gifts are gone what about wisdom? Discernment? The gift of faith? The list in 1 corinthuans 12 includes 9 gifts .do all cease? No wisdom? No gift of faith? 2 question if God never speaks to any christian like in acts when holy spirit told phillio ti preach to ethiopian . Than since it is God who calls paators teachers etc. How does one know he is to be a pastor? Does he self appoint? That seems to go against God being the one who chooses also hiw are you to know if God has called you to stay exactly where you are or go to china? Africa? Isreal? And 3rd questiin do yiu think nabeel qureshi was false? In seeking allah finding Jesus nabeel shared that the evidrnce moved him but it us hard for a muslim to leave his faith and family he aaked God for a vision and dreams amd the vision and dreams pointed him to surrender self repent and belive the gospel which he based on what scripture says but similar to corneilus in acts the vision only pointee him toward scripture not away from it he still needed to acceot what the word of God says so are you saying even though nabeels expeeience is similar to cornilius nabeels waa false but cornelius was true ? Please address these questions im a video address nabeel qureshi and many muslims like him who left muslim faith prompted by a dream or vision also address dr michael brown have the debate flush this out in great detail. Im not saying yiu are wrong but im very confused because it seems all pastors of any denominatiin feel " called" by God how do you know?
I'm so tired of Calvinists and cessationists accusing everyone else of not being true Christians, at worst, and "immature Christians" at best. 1 Cor. 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Did Paul retract that statement later on? I must have missed that verse.
I wonder what the 3rd man on the cross thought? Have the gifts finished? Or do they continue? I’m sure he didn’t have a clue but he still got into heaven. Grow up all of you and stop arguing!
Cause it's definitely not important whether the bible says a loved one can be healed of illness whether Jesus can guide his children and local church through prophecy. That's not something that's important at all because its not as important as the bare bones gospel. How about YOU grow up and realize that just because people argue and aren't courteous doesn't mean that it's not important to debate at all.
@@spod11 [7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ] 1 Corinthians 1:7 ESV Hmm. That doesn’t seem to say what you think it says.
@@spod11 I have much to say about the “form of godliness” reference from 2 Timothy 3; but I urge you first of all to acknowledge that no passage of Scripture plainly says that all spiritual gifts will continue until Christ returns.
I always felt that there should be a middle ground on this. Like be practical. Sure gifts are real! But tongues for instance was never a nonsensical gibberish it was real human language. And and interpreter was used… the people falling on the ground writhing around acting ridiculous and making up nonsense… that’s wild and not biblical. Be reasonable haha
I agree about the writhing and all that crazy stuff. I can tell you though that Paul address "various kinds of tongues" including a type that builds up the person who is praying to God but doesn't know what they are praying but is uttering mysteries in the Spirit and building his spiritual self up. We are told this to be done privately and not in a group. So group tongues would be a misuse of the gift. Read 1 cor 10.
Cessationist MUST go outside the scripture to get to the position that the gifts have ceased today. They cannot provide a chapter and verse which says ANY gifts ceased before Christ’s second coming.
No, Continuationists do not believe that anything God, the Holy Spirit, communicates is an extra biblical authority... You dont understand/know the Holy Spirit. Both of you, "Leaders" remember, you will be held accountable for every word. Go ack and read 1 Cor 13.8-13. Read, and be quiet, and learn to listen to the Holy Spirit. John 14.26. He is your teacher. Then go back and read John chapter 14 through 16 and you will be getting to understand a little bit about the holy spirit's role in the life of the believer.
John 14:26 was spoken by Jesus to the remaining 11 apostles - not a very good source for continuationism. In fact, all of John 13-16 was spoken by Jesus to the apostles only. It stands to reason that much of what he spoke was for them exclusively - especially John 14:25-26. Otherwise it makes no sense.
I have never heard a good response from a cessasitionist about Phillip's four daughters. Were their prophetic words equal to scripture? were they teaching men? If we found their prophetic words copied down would it be scripture? Doug Wilson was the most honest in his answer, he said yes it would be scripture. He is also a complementarian though so it makes no sense in that thinking. Phillips four daughters prophesying must be addressed by cessasionist in my opinion before they start challenging continuinist on sola scriptura
I’m at a loss for why you believe this to be a problem for Cessationism. Their words were not written down as far as we know, and there is extrabiblical testimony about them from Papias, an early church father who likely knew them. There’s nothing about them having written anything down. So it’s an entirely moot point. Many people in the early church had the gift of prophecy. They didn’t trust mere claims of this gift, but relied on the biblical standard, which is proof. Nobody today meets the biblical standard for real prophecy.
The sad part about continuationist is if the Holy Spirit hasn't spoken to them then they have put words into His mouth that He never said and may be guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit for attributing to Him words that He never spoke.😢
This is rather tricky. Obviously we remain very skeptical of people claiming revelation through dreams or a word from God, Jesus told us to be aware of false prophets, and I believe that scripture is the main authority, but if that’s the case, God had to speak through the prophets to begin with. Scripture was divine revelation. Also God does not change, if he used to do it, he likely still does. So I believe in a strong dependency on scripture but am open to what others have to say with a large skeptical lense on.
Those who believe that vision and dreams still happens my question is who will interpret it to be from the Lord. It should still be biblical that in the witness of 2 to 3 witnesses a truth shall be established. Study all false religions and you will see that it started with 'the lord told me or an angel showed me this' the Scripture is sufficient and the only source that binds the conscience of man.
Generally I would say that most continuationists do NOT believe that recent inspiration is on par with scripture. The next testament clearly teaches that prophetic words in congregations need to be tested/weighed because men are fallible. Of course some people are going to take it too far, but I do not think this is characteristic at all. We generally believe in the sufficiency of scripture as well, but the Bible tells us to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, and that we may all prophesy one by one, so seeking revelation from God is just following Biblical commands.
You “generally” believe in the sufficiency of Scripture? That doesn’t sound very convincing. If you truly believe that Scripture is sufficient, then extrabiblical revelation whether in the form of dreams, words of knowledge, tongues and their interpretation, are out. God’s word is solely sufficient. The gospel is complete. So no one should believe your claim.
@@Open2Reason you totally twisted what I said. I did not say I generally believe in the sufficiency of scripture. I was advocating that revelation today is NOT scripture. However, the sufficiency of scripture does not rule out modern revelation. Scripture is the standard by which revelation is judged.
@@richardnewell8478 No sir. I didn’t twist what you said in the least. I accentuated it. And now you’re sinking deeper into absurdity with this gem: “The sufficiency of Scripture doesn’t rule out modern revelation.” Of course it does. If the revelation found in the Scriptures is sufficient, then modern revelation is entirely irrelevant. Period.
@@Open2Reason maybe I was unclear. Modern revelation is 100% not scripture muse be judged by scripture. But the Bible exhorts us to desire the greater gifts, especially prophecy. So the New Testament clearly advocates modern revelation.
@@richardnewell8478 The words “earnestly desire the greater gifts…that you may prophesy” were written to the Corinthian church. What makes you believe they were intended for you?
The sheer irony and hypocrisy of cessationism is actually staggering! How, in all honesty, would anyone really point to the sufficiency of the scriptures ostensibly to replace the substance of the scriptures??? The substance of the scriptures teaches emphatically and abundantly, to trust not in the scriptures themselves, but in the one whom they testify, that is God; a real, active, powerful person--not merely a script, or historical fact. My faith is in a person, not in a book--NO NOT IN A BOOK! The Bible is only a testimony, a witness, that points me to GOD. His stated will is that through the knowledge that is written, I will develop faith in Him and actually come to Him. Since He is neither blind, deaf, dumb, mute, disabled nor dead, He will inevitably interact with me and commune with me--this is the basic premise of true biblical faith. Cessationism actually limits people to the knowledge about God, by no means brings them to the knowledge of Him--the latter is irrefutably, unequivocally and inescapably experiential. Look at some religious hypocrites, whom in His day hid behind the claim of "sufficiency of the scriptures", Jesus exposed them as fraudsters--they didn't really want to come to Him, the just wanted to remain pretending that their faith was in the scriptures: John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
When The “Speaker of Tongues” stands before the Lord, will he not hear this question: “How can you utter unto me words that you do not know that come from a source that you do not know or in which you have assumed?!” Paul enjoins us to pray in the spirit and with understanding. “Neither add nor detract from the word” ! Revelations 22. What is the credibility of one’s secret dreams?…..Lean not on your OWN understanding…least you preach “another Gospel” -Galatians ……..Make sure that “person” you are trusting is the right one. Do not twist scripture to fit a script……..dangerous. Can you answer that question posed above??? “Words you admit you do NOT know?”
What is greater, God or scripture? If you say 'God', then why confine Him to a book? Of course scripture is true, but has God decided to conceal some things from man in time, yes or no?
@@Aninetehradactulthe “word” was made in the 1500’s. Are you saying the Holy Spirit wasn’t in operation when he used people to put together the Bible? Why can’t he use people through gifts the same way today to do other good
@@GreaterThanWealth John 1:1- “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” So no. Not 1500’s. That’s way off. If this is the start of our theological differences, then you have a lot of unlearning to do. We’ve combined all the texts, scrolls and letters, through time, into a single book. As soon as a letter is found or heard it got complied with extreme scrutiny, as fast as possible, this did not just happen in the 1500’s. The Holy Spirit was COMPLETELY in operation when He used people write, send and compile the word! Totally! There are MULTIPLE reasons gifts such as tongues, knowledge and prophecy are NOT in use today: 1: God is allowing these things to assume in falsehood, so that believers can easily spot false information, language, and prophecy. 2: “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:8-11, 13 NIV What Paul is saying here, is that he has been given FINAL revelation of who is to operate how, under grace. Not law. So Paul has brought us everything we need to know, therefore, prophecy gift? No longer needed. 3: God is permitting Satan to rule the earth at this time. To give Satan a false sense of victory, and to instill more strength through faith in the believers. But we must take His word as true, and remain faithful, even when things begin getting worse. So because He is letting Satan rule, and Satan only wants to mislead us from the Word, Satan will use false prophecy, the mystic of ancient tongues, and the lure of having knowledge to pull people away from the truth, of Christ, our Lord of lords, King of kings, the most High and holy, our one and only savior.
I’m a continuationist. Wasn’t until I read the Bible. I simply believe we should pursue prophecy and not disregard it. We should desire healing and tongues, and not forbid them. I am quite convinced it is biblical. I am insulted and grieved that this is even a question. My life belongs to Christ. He is Lord. God raised Him from the dead. He justified me by faith alone, and he is coming again. I affirm the full sufficiency and inspiration of Scripture, that same Scripture that tells me that believers may do many signs and wonders and that they should seek the gifts of the Spirit. I encourage my cessationist brothers and sisters to judge the hearts of continuationists and stop inflating theological disagreement. Grace and peace!
"Desiring healing and tongues" is not the same thing as practicing them. Nothing wrong with desiring such things. But universally we all have both healing and tongues in this modern world via ordinary means.
I grew up with a lot of cessationist doctrine, but as I read my Bible I realized that was not what scripture teaches, in fact quite the opposite. All the gifts of the Spirit are still available to us today. You all are missing out!
A lot of Charismatics are immature and confused, worldly but not all of them. When they teach they will mislead intentionally or unintentionally, can't always tell, but they tend to be absolute and accusatory, albeit falsely. Ignorance abounds in Charismatics, e.g. "if you had more faith/obedience then God would heal you." Obedience to the Charismatic? Do I smell tyranny along the lines of Roman Catholic one world church family? Knowing Scripture identifies what God said so that way the counterfeit can be identified.
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.
If there is not real theological or biblical reason for cessationism we have to ask the question why is the hostility contiunationists might i suggest something Mark 15:10 NASBS [10] For he was aware that the chief priests had handed Him over because of envy. envy allowed the religious leaders to reject the healings and miracles of Jesus and hand him over to pilate . They justified their rejection of Jesus even claimed he had a demon , somehow overlooked sick people made well all because they were jealous and fearful that their monopoly of religious control of the people was being threatened as for the abuses and excesses of charismatics and pentecostals no - one would deny real money existed because counterfeit did
The vast majority of continuationists believe the Canon of Scripture is closed. They make a distinction between the original 12 plus Paul and Matthias who closed out the Canon of Scripture - and the 70 plus the other 11 named such as Apollos. The Greek word Apostle means " sent ones" We still have them today. We call them "missionaries" and "church planters"
The apostles were not mere missionaries. They carried the authority of Jesus demonstrated by clear and indisputable signs. Not so with missionaries. The apostles were foundational pillars of the church, along with the prophets. Missionaries are not foundational. The office of apostles is not perpetual, but ended with the death of the remaining 11, and Paul. Their names are the ones mentioned in Revelation. Jesus gave them special powers, knowledge, and recall abilities; which is why we have a New Testament today. When Paul said that all Scripture is sufficient, he meant it.
Is there even one teeny weeny little video on UA-cam just one of someone speaking a language they never spoke before and somebody close by that does speak the language understands the person speaking and understands them praising God like happened on the day of Acts? Just one teeny tiny video. just one.
Scripture (Bible = OT + NT) has authority, but GOD has reserved sufficiency for the work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. If you look to Scripture to save you, you will find yourself gravely disappointed, for Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is INSUFFICIENT to save us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Only Christ Jesus alone, our final sacrifice and High Priest can (and has) accomplish(ed) this for us.
@@bigtobacco1098Just be sure that you don’t practice “Christian Talmudism” by seeking to replace the role and the work of HOLY SPIRIT with your own intellectual interpretation of the Bible. It is and necessarily MUST be the FATHER, the SON, and HOLY SPIRIT, NOT the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SCRIPTURES.
The gifts have not ceased, however a divine revelation in the modern sense must line up with scripture, there may be a different way that God may show that person a vision but when one has a vision, it must be prayed over and one must look to the bible to see if their vision lines up with the character of God, if this is so, then yes God can give revelations, but they must be consistent with the rest of scripture.
That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Any argument you make about prophecy today would need to apply back when it still happened. So would you take the word over a prophet over the Bible back in the OT? IF they concredict? NO. The Bible is the superme authority it is cannon. It is the standard by which all other teachings are Judged against. It doesn't mean God doesn't speak only in the Bible, it s the highest authority on what God has said. So if a Creed says Jesus is God, it doesn't mean that God is speaking through that creed. The Creed all reflects what the Bible says, A creed however isn't inflabable we need someone way to discern if its from God or not and thats what the Bible is, the way ti Judge what is truth and what isn't
This is embarrassing for the cessationists camp. You mean you had to go outside the scripture to prove a point?? It's safe to say cessationists are Atheists that believe in a God. But that that God is not powerful 😂
Calvinism is Nestorianism and was declared a heresy by the church in the 5th Century. So, you have no place to accuse Charismatics of heresy when you have your own to deal with. Cessationists are nothing more than modern day Saducees as well. You need to be careful and avoid the ad hominem and ad hoc arguments. I've yet to find a prominent Calvinist scholar that has even the slightest grasp of the historical, and theological context of the Tanakh (too many liberals in OT academia). There may be some out there, maybe not. It seems to me that a lot of Calvinists end up leaving Calvinism when they realize they're not truly Orthodox. You want to use the free will God gave you to lick the boot of Nestorius or Augustine? Are there abuses, heretical teachings ,and misrepresentations of the Holy Spirit in some Charismatic churches? Unfortunately, yes. Are there scandals, misuse of scripture, and abuses of church authority in liturgical churches? Sadly yes. Are there heresies taught by Calvinists that are influenced by Papists? Unfortunately, yes. Your soteriology is trash, your pneumatology is shallow and pathetic, and the self righteousness you show in bowing to doctrines of demons & men are unbecoming to a follower of Christ. Paul wouldn't be in your corner either, have you ever really studied Romans 13? Neither would the brother of the Lord (James) be in your corner. For people who says they love scripture, and hold it in such esteem seem ignorant. At least a couple of the chief reformers seemed rather indignant about removing the Epistle of James from the New Testament! All due respect, get off your high horse, and repent of your error!
Am continuationist , and it started on the day of my salvation when Messiah came to me and told me what i must do to be saved. When Christ speaks to me in dreams and visions he has never gone beyond his word and yet he not limited by any human limits, so read your Bibles and understand the will of God
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.
I believe in sola scriptura that the bible is complete, and that it is our main authority, I do not consider dreams or visions to be scripture, but they can, and should be backed by scripture before it can be considered a true vision
Amen fully agree
Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof from such turn away. 11 Timothy 3:5
The difference between Eastern and Western thinking.
Many many Muslims are coming to Christ and they report He came to them in dreams.
Both Jesus and Paul said believers will do miracles. Ergo our Commander in Chief is a continuationist.
Where exactly did Jesus and Paul say that believers will perform miracles?
Jesus is in the theology of Muslims, they just don’t think he is God
Just because someone got saved through a dream doesn't valadate Apostolic gifts today LOL
@@Frost_actual Exactly. Also, many of these reports are just preposterous and demonstrably false - sensationalistic reports that have no way to be verified.
If you know the Scriptures, you know that God does not operate that way. His truth is not based in a subjective experience, but in verifiable historical truth. Christ rose in history and appeared physically to hundreds of eyewitnesses.
@@boom7star731 See, you’re completely wrong. I asked about miracles, not works. Jesus performed miracles that we cannot perform. He raised himself from the grave, for example - oh, and he created the heavens and the earth. Have you done that? No? I thought so.
there’s a common smugness that seems to accompany the Calvinist and Cessationist. Ie “if you don’t arrive at the same historically debated and diversely concluded doctrinal position as me, then you just haven’t matured in the Lord as much as we have yet”
So one need not hold to certain beliefs ???
That’s a very rational and correct viewpoint.
Conversely cessationists are the ones who have not really matured much because you can tell by how they interact and treat people. There's a lot of fruit of the spirit missing
@@timwadley948There’s fruit of the spirit missing because they don’t babble incoherently and call it the Holy Spirit?
I have attended non-charismatic churches for over 40 years. I have witnessed much fruit. Much selfless giving, serving with humble hearts, joyful praise and worship, passionate ministry to the unsaved, sound teaching and preaching from God’s word, modesty, strong witness for Jesus, etc.
That is not indicative of an absence of spiritual fruit.
You are making an uncharitable generalization.
@@Open2Reason Likewise - I've seen so much fruit and Biblical gifting exercised within my church resulting in the growth of our relationship with God and countless others being reached with the Gospel. I also attended a more charismatic church in my past, and experienced the same - lots of good came from from that body. No denomination has a corner on the spiritual market, though. And there seems to be many who seem obsessed with certain spiritual gifts while missing sound doctrinal teaching (and the converse could be said as well). Not all will speak in tongues. I never have, and rather enjoy being able to understand what I say and pray, but that's just me. If the Holy Spirit never chooses to enable me to do that, that's fine! There's no requirement that we all do it, and it's unbiblical to suggest otherwise.
Blessings!
cessationists deny the Holy Spirit. They are well lettered but reject the Holy Spirit.
You misrepresent Cessationists.
@@boom7star731 The OP is of the mistaken opinion that Cessationists deny the Holy Spirit because “they are well lettered…” meaning that we study the Scriptures “but (we) reject the Holy Spirit.”
This is demonstrably false, and you have pretty much stated the same thing.
The truth of the matter is that we reject attempts to claim apostolic authority in the present day, because Scripture makes it quite clear that apostolic authority - given to the apostles by Jesus and empowered through the Holy Spirit, has ceased to be present among men, but continues in the authority of the Holy Spirit inspired written word of God.
This is demonstrably true by a clear reading of the Scriptures.
In another thread you demonstrated that you lack an ability to exegete the Scriptures by claiming that Jesus commands all Christians to miraculously heal the sick and to drive out demons in Matthew 10; when the context of the passage clearly stated in verse 5 is that Jesus was talking exclusively to the apostles, and not to all Christians.
(to be continued)….
…. So how do we know that the Holy Spirit breathed authority of the apostles has been left to us in the Scriptures alone? Because the apostles themselves told us so in the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures, and Jesus told those very same apostles that they would be given this authority, and power in the form of apostolic gifts.
Not only is Matthew 10 a testimony to this, but also John 14:25-26, Acts 1:1-8, 2 Peter 1:16-21, and 2 Timothy 3 (the entire chapter).
So to claim that we deny the Holy Spirit is an empty charge when you consider these things.
But Cessationists do not even deny the Holy Spirit’s other work. He still heals. He still convicts us of sin, and guides us into all truth. He is our comforter, and directs us to Jesus and the truth of his gospel.
So saying that we reject the Holy Spirit is a demonstrable lie; and lies are definitely not of God.
@@Open2Reason yes, the Holy Spirit still heals however, He does it by the laying on of hands and His gifts. He also still prophesies today through His sons. You forget that that Holy Spirit lives in us with all His power and gifts and abilities. Let Him manifest through you. Why would God give the gifts and then take them away 50 years later? Cessationists also say that the Holy Spirit doesnt give dreams or visions or prophesy today. Not only does the Holy Spirit speak to our hearts but He also speaks through us as the Scripture says it is not you who speak but the Holy Spirit speaking through you.
@@spod11 “He(Holy Spirit) does it (healing) by the laying on of hands and his gifts.”
It sounds like what you’re saying is that this is the only way the Spirit heals. Are you sure about that?
How about:
[14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.] James 5:14-15 ESV
It seems as though the Holy Spirit isn’t at all limited to acting only according to us first acting by the laying on of hands. He will heal if we pray for him to heal. I’ve also heard reports of him healing even without a prayer - the person had faith, and in his sovereignty, God healed him. I hear reports of this all the time. But you’re saying “no, we must lay hands on him first.” But that’s clearly not what the Scriptures say. I mean why limit God to our control? He hasn’t so limited himself.
“He also prophesies today through His sons.”
See, I believe that there is a Scriptural standard for prophecy, and it’s given to us in several passages of Scripture.
First from Proverbs 30:
[5 Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.] Proverbs 30:5-6 ESV
Other translations state “pure” in place of “proves true” - as in the purity of refined gold. It’s been tested, and proven to be pure.
God’s word can be tested for its purity, because God never lies. When he says he’s going to do something, he does it. That’s why we can trust him like we would trust a shield in battle.
But man’s word is not pure. It’s not proved true necessarily. We cannot take it at face value like we can take God’s word, because while the man might be claiming to be speaking the words of God (prophecy), he might be merely attempting to add to God’s word things that God has not said, proving himself to be a liar.
So with that in mind, the Standard for testing if a claimed prophecy IS in fact from God, Scripture points is to the prophet who would come (Jesus), and contrasts him with the false prophet by demonstrating that the false prophet’s words cannot be proven, and therefore, cannot be trusted:
[21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’- 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.] Deuteronomy 18:21-22 ESV
So the standard is undeniable proof that the word came from God, and not from man - since only God is omniscient, and knows the future.
So if a person claims prophecy, and is not 100% correct in what he claims, he is by the biblical standard, a proven false prophet.
Thus anyone who claims to have the gift of prophecy, then claims that a particular event will happen with certain detail - if that person is not 100% correct in what he/she is claiming, this alone proves him/her a liar, and a false prophet.
The Bible sets a high bar, because false prophecy is blasphemy - it claims that God is a liar.
I simply do not believe there is a person alive today who meets this biblical standard.
“You forgot that the Holy Spirit lives in us…”
No I didn’t. I simply believe that supernatural claims must be proven by the biblical standard. If any modern claim has in fact been proven by the biblical standard we would know about it, because Christians who actually witnessed the proof would be shouting it from the rooftops. We don’t see any of that kind of proof today.
“… with all His power and gifts and abilities.”
Not so. He has not left us with the gifts of the apostles (genuine biblical tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge). Everything that is relevant to these gifts is provided for us in the words of Scripture, which the apostles oversaw. See John 14:25-26 if you have doubts about this. Jesus gave the apostles words of knowledge, and the ability to recall everything he said to them. Also, Hebrews 1:1-3 tells us that God no longer speaks to us through fresh revelation by prophets, but only through His Son - and Jesus is His Son, who gave these abilities exclusively to His apostles so the Scriptures could be written.
“Let Him manifest through you.”
Yeah, I believe He wants me to bear fruit:
[22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.] Galatians 5:22-26 ESV
“Why would God give the gifts and then take them away 50 years later?”
I’m glad you asked that question. It shows that you’re interested in reason, and reasonable explanations for why God does what He does.
I would toss that back at you and ask “why not?”
Perhaps there’s a reason he would limit the gifts (not all of them certainly) to certain people at a certain period of time.
Scripture seems to suggest that He has done just that:
John 14:25-26 (again) The apostles were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ ministry. So he chose them for a specific purpose - to be his witnesses:
[2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”] Acts 1:2-5 ESV
[7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”] Acts 1:7-8 ESV
The theme of the apostles being eyewitnesses permeates all 4 gospels, and is saturated into the apostles’ writing. For instance:
[16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.] 2 Peter 1:16-21 ESV
There’s that biblical standard for prophecy once again. Peter, James and John were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ transfiguration - and that fact proves the prophetic word - it makes it not just certain, but more certain - I.e., without a reasonable doubt.
So the apostles’ witness was extremely important to Jesus, and his choosing of the 12 is mentioned in one way or another in all 4 gospels, and in a very prominent way, they are with him throughout the narratives.
And the only way that their witness reached the “ends of the earth” was through the preaching of their words - the gospel - found in the Scriptures.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts - but He does this through the Scriptures, and not apart from them. There is no new revelation, and believing that there is is very dangerous, because it leads people astray from the gospel. Throughout the history of the church, deceivers (cultists) have introduced new revelation, which in some way(s) denies and/or obscures who Christ is, and what he has done.
So I completely disagree with you that the Holy Spirit speaks today through believers. That is not the Holy Spirit, but some other spirit.
Cessationist saying that we value dreams, prophecy, visions over the written word of God is the equivalent of us saying that cessationist don’t believe the Holy Spirit moves at all anymore… So maybe go to the word of God instead of speculating…
1 Corinthians 14:1
[1] Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
"Prophesying" in general is speaking the Word of God. If you utter something that's not contained within Scripture, or have taken it out of context to imply a different meaning than intended in Scripture, then you are not prophesying.
Hebrews 1:1-2
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, ....
"In these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." not the prophets. We have no need of the prophets now that we have the Word of God Himself speaking to us through Scripture.
That's not to say that God through the Holy Spirit won't give you some guidance or intuition about something from time to time, but that's not prophecy.
God's word has taught me so much and am spirit filled, spirit lead and in the mighty power of the spirit of God
There is not a single scriptural argument for the cessasionist position which is why cessasionists resort to ad hominiem attacks rather than biblical arguments
I agree. There isn't one. There's more than one. How about a contest? Name one word that best describes the Bible. I go first: Perfect....your turn...
Making you a heretic is not ad homininem
@@nonamesthesame From your logic, 1 Corinthians 13:8 says Knowledge will vanish away. Has knowledge ceased??
Secondly, it says they shall cease. My question is when?? Show me from the Bible the date it ceased 😂
You cessationists are funny
@@Aninetehradactul "Making you a Herectic is not as hominem."
The one who goes about calling one a Herectic for no reason is the Herectic and is attacking strawman and ad hominems 🥱🤧
@@raphaelfeneje486 I’m not sure why I said making. I think I meant “calling”. It’s not ad hominem. You are what you believe, and if you believe in modern gifts of prophecy and the like, that makes you a heretic.
Im a continuationist, but why in american Christianity, do continuationalists always allow women preachers?
That’s a great question. They don’t always. Calvary chapel is a good example of that. But I have noticed too that there is a high percentage of continuationist sects that allow for women “pastors”
@@subjecttochrist I've never thought of Calvary Chapel as a continuationist organization.
@@Mesa_Mike yeah. They definitely are. Not all calvarys folow the same structure, but - they use a slogan related to matters of the Spirit, that “the Bible is their seatbelt.” I like that… helps protect against abuses of the Spirit.
Lord please help me not get so easily enraged and so frustrated when I listen to people holistically discount continuism by categorize all continuists in this manner. Help us both to try to look on one another with eyes of grace. I pray in Jesus’ Name, amen.
Talk about cessationism in india you'll be excommunicated because every one of us in our churches here are 1st generation christians and that too because God is working miracles, healings, prophecies and other great works in all of our lives otherwise no one would come to christ in india that how strong the people are here in India, Holy Spirit is working always everywhere and everytime in all these 2000 years that's why Christianity still exists because God exists and is working through his Holy Spirit in all the church history
amen praise God 👏 🙌
Iam an Indian.
I believe in Sola Scriptura
@bhavyavalli9545 so?
Phil Johnson is wrong for backing these guys up. Completely disobeying the commandment of secondary separation. But then again, they let John Piper into their church, so there you go.
Cessationists have cut and pasted their Bibles and are not adhering to Sola scriptura on the Holy Spirit baptism (an experience post-salvation) and ALL of the gifts not ceasing until "that which is perfect is come" and "but then face to face" and "then shall I know even as I am known" (1 Cor. 13:7-12). This passage directly tells us when the gifts will cease. I am going to follow Paul's command to "quench not the Spirit" and "despise not prophesyings" (1 Thess. 5:19-20) and "covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39.) and to "covet earnestly the best gifts" and "especially that ye may prophesy" (1 Cor. 12:31 and 1 Cor. 14:1).
Sola scriptura. Have ye never read?! You are doing the exact thing that you accuse us Bible believers of doing; not valuing scripture above all else! This is hilariously ironic and the height of hypocrisy.
exactly, thank you.
Why are there 108k views on the most debated topic in American Christianity and only like 6 comments? LOL
@ModernMozart1104 it's because the comments were off for a while
Questions for Mr Todd friel .if cessatiinists belive all gifts are gone what about wisdom? Discernment? The gift of faith? The list in 1 corinthuans 12 includes 9 gifts .do all cease? No wisdom? No gift of faith? 2 question if God never speaks to any christian like in acts when holy spirit told phillio ti preach to ethiopian . Than since it is God who calls paators teachers etc. How does one know he is to be a pastor? Does he self appoint? That seems to go against God being the one who chooses also hiw are you to know if God has called you to stay exactly where you are or go to china? Africa? Isreal? And 3rd questiin do yiu think nabeel qureshi was false? In seeking allah finding Jesus nabeel shared that the evidrnce moved him but it us hard for a muslim to leave his faith and family he aaked God for a vision and dreams amd the vision and dreams pointed him to surrender self repent and belive the gospel which he based on what scripture says but similar to corneilus in acts the vision only pointee him toward scripture not away from it he still needed to acceot what the word of God says so are you saying even though nabeels expeeience is similar to cornilius nabeels waa false but cornelius was true ? Please address these questions im a video address nabeel qureshi and many muslims like him who left muslim faith prompted by a dream or vision also address dr michael brown have the debate flush this out in great detail. Im not saying yiu are wrong but im very confused because it seems all pastors of any denominatiin feel " called" by God how do you know?
I'm so tired of Calvinists and cessationists accusing everyone else of not being true Christians, at worst, and "immature Christians" at best. 1 Cor. 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Did Paul retract that statement later on? I must have missed that verse.
I wonder what the 3rd man on the cross thought? Have the gifts finished? Or do they continue? I’m sure he didn’t have a clue but he still got into heaven.
Grow up all of you and stop arguing!
Cause it's definitely not important whether the bible says a loved one can be healed of illness whether Jesus can guide his children and local church through prophecy. That's not something that's important at all because its not as important as the bare bones gospel.
How about YOU grow up and realize that just because people argue and aren't courteous doesn't mean that it's not important to debate at all.
I think , I think, I think, both gentleman can say all scripture has ceased, they lead each other into doctrine which Christ never written.
Where did these gifts go for 1800 years ???
Away, just as Paul said to the Corinthians! Very good point friend
@@Aninetehradactul gifts of the Spirit will be here till the return of Jesus Christ 1cor 1:7
@@spod11 [7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ] 1 Corinthians 1:7 ESV
Hmm. That doesn’t seem to say what you think it says.
@@Open2Reason be careful that you dont have a form of godliness but deny the power or gifts of the Spirit.
@@spod11 I have much to say about the “form of godliness” reference from 2 Timothy 3; but I urge you first of all to acknowledge that no passage of Scripture plainly says that all spiritual gifts will continue until Christ returns.
I always felt that there should be a middle ground on this. Like be practical. Sure gifts are real! But tongues for instance was never a nonsensical gibberish it was real human language. And and interpreter was used… the people falling on the ground writhing around acting ridiculous and making up nonsense… that’s wild and not biblical. Be reasonable haha
I agree about the writhing and all that crazy stuff. I can tell you though that Paul address "various kinds of tongues" including a type that builds up the person who is praying to God but doesn't know what they are praying but is uttering mysteries in the Spirit and building his spiritual self up. We are told this to be done privately and not in a group. So group tongues would be a misuse of the gift. Read 1 cor 10.
Cessationist MUST go outside the scripture to get to the position that the gifts have ceased today. They cannot provide a chapter and verse which says ANY gifts ceased before Christ’s second coming.
Which is ironic because they are all about staying "inside" scripture.
@@ModernMozart1104 totally
Contest: Give one word that best describes the Bible? I go first: Perfect......top it......
It is really unclear what you are trying to say?@@Jomartproducts
Offer any examples of Acts 2 type tongues today ??
No, Continuationists do not believe that anything God, the Holy Spirit, communicates is an extra biblical authority...
You dont understand/know the Holy Spirit.
Both of you, "Leaders" remember, you will be held accountable for every word.
Go ack and read 1 Cor 13.8-13.
Read, and be quiet, and learn to listen to the Holy Spirit. John 14.26. He is your teacher.
Then go back and read John chapter 14 through 16 and you will be getting to understand a little bit about the holy spirit's role in the life of the believer.
John 14:26 was spoken by Jesus to the remaining 11 apostles - not a very good source for continuationism.
In fact, all of John 13-16 was spoken by Jesus to the apostles only. It stands to reason that much of what he spoke was for them exclusively - especially John 14:25-26. Otherwise it makes no sense.
I have never heard a good response from a cessasitionist about Phillip's four daughters. Were their prophetic words equal to scripture? were they teaching men? If we found their prophetic words copied down would it be scripture? Doug Wilson was the most honest in his answer, he said yes it would be scripture. He is also a complementarian though so it makes no sense in that thinking. Phillips four daughters prophesying must be addressed by cessasionist in my opinion before they start challenging continuinist on sola scriptura
I’m at a loss for why you believe this to be a problem for Cessationism. Their words were not written down as far as we know, and there is extrabiblical testimony about them from Papias, an early church father who likely knew them. There’s nothing about them having written anything down. So it’s an entirely moot point.
Many people in the early church had the gift of prophecy. They didn’t trust mere claims of this gift, but relied on the biblical standard, which is proof.
Nobody today meets the biblical standard for real prophecy.
The sad part about continuationist is if the Holy Spirit hasn't spoken to them then they have put words into His mouth that He never said and may be guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit for attributing to Him words that He never spoke.😢
This is rather tricky. Obviously we remain very skeptical of people claiming revelation through dreams or a word from God, Jesus told us to be aware of false prophets, and I believe that scripture is the main authority, but if that’s the case, God had to speak through the prophets to begin with. Scripture was divine revelation. Also God does not change, if he used to do it, he likely still does. So I believe in a strong dependency on scripture but am open to what others have to say with a large skeptical lense on.
Those who believe that vision and dreams still happens my question is who will interpret it to be from the Lord. It should still be biblical that in the witness of 2 to 3 witnesses a truth shall be established. Study all false religions and you will see that it started with 'the lord told me or an angel showed me this' the Scripture is sufficient and the only source that binds the conscience of man.
I am cessationist not until I read the Bible
Generally I would say that most continuationists do NOT believe that recent inspiration is on par with scripture. The next testament clearly teaches that prophetic words in congregations need to be tested/weighed because men are fallible.
Of course some people are going to take it too far, but I do not think this is characteristic at all.
We generally believe in the sufficiency of scripture as well, but the Bible tells us to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, and that we may all prophesy one by one, so seeking revelation from God is just following Biblical commands.
You “generally” believe in the sufficiency of Scripture? That doesn’t sound very convincing. If you truly believe that Scripture is sufficient, then extrabiblical revelation whether in the form of dreams, words of knowledge, tongues and their interpretation, are out. God’s word is solely sufficient. The gospel is complete.
So no one should believe your claim.
@@Open2Reason you totally twisted what I said. I did not say I generally believe in the sufficiency of scripture. I was advocating that revelation today is NOT scripture. However, the sufficiency of scripture does not rule out modern revelation. Scripture is the standard by which revelation is judged.
@@richardnewell8478 No sir. I didn’t twist what you said in the least. I accentuated it. And now you’re sinking deeper into absurdity with this gem:
“The sufficiency of Scripture doesn’t rule out modern revelation.”
Of course it does. If the revelation found in the Scriptures is sufficient, then modern revelation is entirely irrelevant. Period.
@@Open2Reason maybe I was unclear. Modern revelation is 100% not scripture muse be judged by scripture. But the Bible exhorts us to desire the greater gifts, especially prophecy. So the New Testament clearly advocates modern revelation.
@@richardnewell8478 The words “earnestly desire the greater gifts…that you may prophesy” were written to the Corinthian church. What makes you believe they were intended for you?
The sheer irony and hypocrisy of cessationism is actually staggering! How, in all honesty, would anyone really point to the sufficiency of the scriptures ostensibly to replace the substance of the scriptures??? The substance of the scriptures teaches emphatically and abundantly, to trust not in the scriptures themselves, but in the one whom they testify, that is God; a real, active, powerful person--not merely a script, or historical fact. My faith is in a person, not in a book--NO NOT IN A BOOK! The Bible is only a testimony, a witness, that points me to GOD. His stated will is that through the knowledge that is written, I will develop faith in Him and actually come to Him. Since He is neither blind, deaf, dumb, mute, disabled nor dead, He will inevitably interact with me and commune with me--this is the basic premise of true biblical faith. Cessationism actually limits people to the knowledge about God, by no means brings them to the knowledge of Him--the latter is irrefutably, unequivocally and inescapably experiential.
Look at some religious hypocrites, whom in His day hid behind the claim of "sufficiency of the scriptures", Jesus exposed them as fraudsters--they didn't really want to come to Him, the just wanted to remain pretending that their faith was in the scriptures:
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
When The “Speaker of Tongues” stands before the Lord, will he not hear this question: “How can you utter unto me words that you do not know that come from a source that you do not know or in which you have assumed?!” Paul enjoins us to pray in the spirit and with understanding. “Neither add nor detract from the word” ! Revelations 22. What is the credibility of one’s secret dreams?…..Lean not on your OWN understanding…least you preach “another Gospel” -Galatians ……..Make sure that “person” you are trusting is the right one. Do not twist scripture to fit a script……..dangerous. Can you answer that question posed above??? “Words you admit you do NOT know?”
What is greater, God or scripture? If you say 'God', then why confine Him to a book? Of course scripture is true, but has God decided to conceal some things from man in time, yes or no?
The word was God and the word was with God. They are the same
@@Aninetehradactulthat is a clear reference to Christ read a few verses down and it will tell u Jesus is the word
@@Aninetehradactulthe “word” was made in the 1500’s. Are you saying the Holy Spirit wasn’t in operation when he used people to put together the Bible? Why can’t he use people through gifts the same way today to do other good
@@GreaterThanWealth John 1:1- “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
So no. Not 1500’s. That’s way off. If this is the start of our theological differences, then you have a lot of unlearning to do.
We’ve combined all the texts, scrolls and letters, through time, into a single book. As soon as a letter is found or heard it got complied with extreme scrutiny, as fast as possible, this did not just happen in the 1500’s.
The Holy Spirit was COMPLETELY in operation when He used people write, send and compile the word! Totally!
There are MULTIPLE reasons gifts such as tongues, knowledge and prophecy are NOT in use today:
1: God is allowing these things to assume in falsehood, so that believers can easily spot false information, language, and prophecy.
2: “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
1 Corinthians 13:8-11, 13 NIV
What Paul is saying here, is that he has been given FINAL revelation of who is to operate how, under grace. Not law. So Paul has brought us everything we need to know, therefore, prophecy gift? No longer needed.
3: God is permitting Satan to rule the earth at this time. To give Satan a false sense of victory, and to instill more strength through faith in the believers. But we must take His word as true, and remain faithful, even when things begin getting worse. So because He is letting Satan rule, and Satan only wants to mislead us from the Word, Satan will use false prophecy, the mystic of ancient tongues, and the lure of having knowledge to pull people away from the truth, of Christ, our Lord of lords, King of kings, the most High and holy, our one and only savior.
@@boicejr8380 and Jesus, being fully man and fully God, is God. Believe in the trinity mate!
I’m a continuationist. Wasn’t until I read the Bible. I simply believe we should pursue prophecy and not disregard it. We should desire healing and tongues, and not forbid them. I am quite convinced it is biblical. I am insulted and grieved that this is even a question. My life belongs to Christ. He is Lord. God raised Him from the dead. He justified me by faith alone, and he is coming again. I affirm the full sufficiency and inspiration of Scripture, that same Scripture that tells me that believers may do many signs and wonders and that they should seek the gifts of the Spirit. I encourage my cessationist brothers and sisters to judge the hearts of continuationists and stop inflating theological disagreement. Grace and peace!
Once you begin to allow that there is prophecy today, you are setting yourself up to accept another gospel.
"Desiring healing and tongues" is not the same thing as practicing them.
Nothing wrong with desiring such things. But universally we all have both healing and tongues in this modern world via ordinary means.
Sorry to hear you are a continuationist
The common thing that I've found among continuationists is the Iack of discernment.
I grew up with a lot of cessationist doctrine, but as I read my Bible I realized that was not what scripture teaches, in fact quite the opposite. All the gifts of the Spirit are still available to us today. You all are missing out!
A lot of Charismatics are immature and confused, worldly but not all of them. When they teach they will mislead intentionally or unintentionally, can't always tell, but they tend to be absolute and accusatory, albeit falsely. Ignorance abounds in Charismatics, e.g. "if you had more faith/obedience then God would heal you." Obedience to the Charismatic? Do I smell tyranny along the lines of Roman Catholic one world church family?
Knowing Scripture identifies what God said so that way the counterfeit can be identified.
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.
If there is not real theological or biblical reason for cessationism we have to ask the question why is the hostility contiunationists
might i suggest something
Mark 15:10 NASBS
[10] For he was aware that the chief priests had handed Him over because of envy.
envy allowed the religious leaders to reject the healings and miracles of Jesus and hand him over to pilate . They justified their rejection of Jesus even claimed he had a demon , somehow overlooked sick people made well all because they were jealous and fearful that their monopoly of religious control of the people was being threatened
as for the abuses and excesses of charismatics and pentecostals no - one would deny real money existed because counterfeit did
The vast majority of continuationists believe the Canon of Scripture is closed.
They make a distinction between the original 12 plus Paul and Matthias who closed out the Canon of Scripture - and the 70 plus the other 11 named such as Apollos. The Greek word Apostle means " sent ones" We still have them today. We call them "missionaries" and "church planters"
The apostles were not mere missionaries. They carried the authority of Jesus demonstrated by clear and indisputable signs. Not so with missionaries.
The apostles were foundational pillars of the church, along with the prophets. Missionaries are not foundational.
The office of apostles is not perpetual, but ended with the death of the remaining 11, and Paul. Their names are the ones mentioned in Revelation.
Jesus gave them special powers, knowledge, and recall abilities; which is why we have a New Testament today.
When Paul said that all Scripture is sufficient, he meant it.
Is there even one teeny weeny little video on UA-cam just one of someone speaking a language they never spoke before and somebody close by that does speak the language understands the person speaking and understands them praising God like happened on the day of Acts? Just one teeny tiny video. just one.
Scripture (Bible = OT + NT) has authority, but GOD has reserved sufficiency for the work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. If you look to Scripture to save you, you will find yourself gravely disappointed, for Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is INSUFFICIENT to save us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Only Christ Jesus alone, our final sacrifice and High Priest can (and has) accomplish(ed) this for us.
You know this because of scripture...
@@bigtobacco1098 A very important disctinction.
@@bigtobacco1098Just be sure that you don’t practice “Christian Talmudism” by seeking to replace the role and the work of HOLY SPIRIT with your own intellectual interpretation of the Bible. It is and necessarily MUST be the FATHER, the SON, and HOLY SPIRIT, NOT the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SCRIPTURES.
@@WatchList-xf8ic and WHERE would I read this so I may know ???
The demon of Cessationism is a liar. Period. I hope this helps to clear up any confusion.
The gifts have not ceased, however a divine revelation in the modern sense must line up with scripture, there may be a different way that God may show that person a vision but when one has a vision, it must be prayed over and one must look to the bible to see if their vision lines up with the character of God, if this is so, then yes God can give revelations, but they must be consistent with the rest of scripture.
Hebrews 1:1-2 = cessationism.
That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Any argument you make about prophecy today would need to apply back when it still happened. So would you take the word over a prophet over the Bible back in the OT? IF they concredict? NO. The Bible is the superme authority it is cannon. It is the standard by which all other teachings are Judged against. It doesn't mean God doesn't speak only in the Bible, it s the highest authority on what God has said. So if a Creed says Jesus is God, it doesn't mean that God is speaking through that creed. The Creed all reflects what the Bible says, A creed however isn't inflabable we need someone way to discern if its from God or not and thats what the Bible is, the way ti Judge what is truth and what isn't
This is embarrassing for the cessationists camp. You mean you had to go outside the scripture to prove a point?? It's safe to say cessationists are Atheists that believe in a God. But that that God is not powerful 😂
Calvinism is Nestorianism and was declared a heresy by the church in the 5th Century. So, you have no place to accuse Charismatics of heresy when you have your own to deal with. Cessationists are nothing more than modern day Saducees as well.
You need to be careful and avoid the ad hominem and ad hoc arguments. I've yet to find a prominent Calvinist scholar that has even the slightest grasp of the historical, and theological context of the Tanakh (too many liberals in OT academia). There may be some out there, maybe not. It seems to me that a lot of Calvinists end up leaving Calvinism when they realize they're not truly Orthodox.
You want to use the free will God gave you to lick the boot of Nestorius or Augustine?
Are there abuses, heretical teachings ,and misrepresentations of the Holy Spirit in some Charismatic churches? Unfortunately, yes. Are there scandals, misuse of scripture, and abuses of church authority in liturgical churches? Sadly yes. Are there heresies taught by Calvinists that are influenced by Papists? Unfortunately, yes.
Your soteriology is trash, your pneumatology is shallow and pathetic, and the self righteousness you show in bowing to doctrines of demons & men are unbecoming to a follower of Christ.
Paul wouldn't be in your corner either, have you ever really studied Romans 13? Neither would the brother of the Lord (James) be in your corner. For people who says they love scripture, and hold it in such esteem seem ignorant. At least a couple of the chief reformers seemed rather indignant about removing the Epistle of James from the New Testament! All due respect, get off your high horse, and repent of your error!
"Are there heresies taught by Calvinists that are influenced by Papists? Unfortunately, yes."
what heresies? original sin?
Can you explain how Calvinism is Nestorianism please?
@@ModernMozart1104 he can't he is just repeating an idiotic claim made by the heretic Jay Dyer who isn't even a Christian
Arguments from ignorance is a major problem
For the record I am not a calvinist who is trying to trap you. I just want to learn.
You don’t really believe in scripture
Am continuationist , and it started on the day of my salvation when Messiah came to me and told me what i must do to be saved. When Christ speaks to me in dreams and visions he has never gone beyond his word and yet he not limited by any human limits, so read your Bibles and understand the will of God
Thank you. 🙌🏻
Nobody should believe you.
All Calvinists are heretics
Source?
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.