How would you persuade someone that the sign gifts have ceased?
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- Опубліковано 6 лип 2024
- How should we respond to friends who believe the first-century sign gifts continue to this day? From one of our live events, Steven Lawson, Stephen Nichols, and Burk Parsons show that Christians now possess something far better than signs and wonders.
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Amen , I’ve been in charismatic “worship” services and now attend a reformed church and can attest there is nothing more powerful then hearing Gods Word properly preached .
I agree with your statement however this doesn’t negate the spiritual gifts. Imagine the word preached correctly AND the gifts of the spirit used correctly. That’s more like the book of Acts church. They had both working alongside each other. You can’t have one and not the other and expect the same results. When modern Christianity says these signs and wonders don’t happen anymore it’s a cop out to excuse themselves from not being biblical.
If your church, and mine, doesn’t resemble the book of acts church it’s not because of cessation it’s because we’re doing it wrong. Simple as that.
@@jlar1984 nonsense
When your back is to the wall you will pray for a Miracle,
J C translation: “because some modern day Corinthians abuse the spiritual gifts the gifts must have ceased with the Apostles”. How is this conclusion logically or Biblically defendable???
This seems to be more of anecdotal reading into texts then it is any kind of sound exegetical analysis.
In order to persuade someone that the sign gifts have ceased, I would have to come up with an extra-biblical system to avoid following the biblical commands to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts and especially to prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:1, 39); to not forbid the speaking of tongues (1 Cor. 14:39) and to not quench the Spirit by despising prophecy (1 Thess. 5:19-20). Also, I would need to dissect the lists of spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12:28-30, Romans 12:6-8 and Ephesians 4:11 like Thomas Jefferson to pick out only the gifts that sound more miraculous and label them with an extra-biblical category: "sign gifts." I would need to come up with a good reason why we treat 1 Corinthians 13, the "Love Chapter," and even 1 Cor. 14:20 like prescriptive texts that we can apply to our lives today, and why we then, suddenly, switch gears and treat the vast majority of 1 Corinthians 14 like a descriptive text to us and only prescriptive for the Corinthians. Furthermore, I would have to come up with reasons other than "for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7) for the manifestations of the Spirit to be given in the early church so that no reason of any average Christian today would apply. Moreover, I would need to ignore Peter and Joel's whole point about the Spirit being poured out on all flesh rather than exclusive flesh in Acts 2:17-18 and the fact that prophesy, dreams and visions are a part of the last days, which are days that we are still currently in (Heb 1:2; Jas 5:3; 1 Pet 1:20). I would need to explain away the fact that the very Word that is sufficient for Godly living (2 Tim. 3:16-17) is the same Word that teaches me these gifts are to be done UNTIL the church reaches full maturity (Eph. 4:11-13), that we prophecy in part, but the partial will pass away WHEN the perfect comes--when we see [obviously Jesus] face to face (1 Cor. 13:9-12) and that as we await that revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are lacking in no spiritual gift (1 Cor. 1:7). I would have to attach the gifts closely to the apostles and forget that each member of the body of Christ is given a manifestation of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7) and that non-apostles like Stephen and Philip did signs and wonders as well (Acts 6:8, Acts 8:6), which means that the true marks of an apostle listed in 2 Cor. 12:12, must be including but not limited to apostles. I could also somehow establish that prophecy just means saying things that are true, when examples of prophecy in Scripture include things that only God can know (1 Cor. 14:25, Acts 11:28, Acts 21:11) and seem to be spontaneous in nature as they come to prophets in the moment (1 Cor. 14:30). The list goes on...Boy, I've got a lot of explaining away to do!
I humbly agree to disagree, as someone who has gone into the remote parts of Mexico to preach the gospel I can tell you that God still is in the business of miraculous signs and wonders through His people
I'm not charismatic by any means but I do trust & believe what the Word clearly teaches. There is nowhere in scripture that teaches gifts were for the early church only. Why would God put the Gifts in scripture if it was just for getting the church off the ground. In fact the word teaches,
Matt. 16 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this ro, rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Was that just for the early church,? I don't believe so.
They don't say it doesn't exist. They are saying it doesn't have to. The charismatic church seems makes it like it has to happen to be the true church.
Bird joy:
You are clearly missing the point of this discussion.
The word clearly lays out that gifts do not come from Christ now but from sinful man that is trying to show himself and not work to bring glory to our risen Saviour.
Get in the word and search it out and you will find out these men speak the truth and your teaching in the past has been man trying to elevate themselves and not Christ.!!
@John Hughes
Well said John!
they are wrong. The gifts have not ceased.
On this issue, I disagree with some of my favorite people: Lawson, RC, Washer, Baucham, etc. In John 14, Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and by extension, all believers of the message the Apostles preached. We saw this happen, it is well documented that the Holy Spirit did fall on those who received the message of the Apostles, sometimes even before water baptism. Another part of the promise in John 14 was also that those who believe in Him (Jesus) would do similar works and even greater. I believe that part is also true. I have seen and read of people under the influence of the Holy Spirit forth telling and foretelling (and it came to pass). I refuse to assign that to the devil or man’s ability. However those things do not equate to Scripture or undermine it. The Holy Spirit continues to guide us into all truth, always in line with all Scripture, which should be our guiding principle because the devil would also seek to take advantage of seemingly murky situations. In fact, I believe we are still living less than we should be living, sometimes because of all our technology, which inadvertently encourages us not to place enough demand on the power of God, which is all-capable. I believe teaching on proper usage and interpretation in line with Scripture is what is important. And Paul does that: Rom. 12, 1Cor. 12, Eph. 4. Peter does this in 1 Pet. 4 as well.
You misunderstand cessationism. The *sign* gifts have ceased. Your example of fortelling is the gift of prophecy, not miraculous signs. You cannot give me an example of a Christian raising somebody from the dead or miraculously healing them upon the touch as the Apostles did .
@@roberttrevino62800 I can and many across the globe can. A sister in our church had a heart attack. sisters that were near her started praying for her and after a couple of minutes of having no pulse, she came back to life. visit the mission field in countries that aren't post-enlightment and they'll have similar stories and even crazier stories.
@@roberttrevino62800 Point taken, I might have misunderstood a bit that cessation is restricted to only signs. However, the same Holy Spirit indwelling today’s believer as He did indwell the Apostles, and Jesus’s promise in John 14 that believers in Him (Jesus) would do the works He was doing and more, leave no doubt in my mind that includes signs and miracles. The gifts of the Spirit listed in 1Cor. 12 include the gifts of healing and the working of miracles! What healing then, what miracles then?! Again, signs and miracles don’t compete with canonical Scripture. But I believe that today’s believers are living less than we could be, as carriers of the Holy Spirit, which is somehow attributable to our dependence on human knowledge and our advances in technology today. And that is on us, not on God!
@@roberttrevino62800 So in a population of 8 billion people. Because you have never seen or had an example it doesn't exist. I've never seen but I have heard the testimony of the dead rising and the lame walking. It's usually in impoverished nations. I would say the world will always discredit the supernatural power of God. Lazarus, the rich man said, ‘No, father Abraham! If someone came to them from the dead, they would believe and change their hearts and lives.’ But Abraham said to him, ‘No! If your brothers won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, then they won’t listen to someone who comes back from death.’” Raising the dead is never about miracles but the manifestation and glory and power of God.
So tell me where it says in Corinthians where it related only to the cessation of signs? I missed that part when I read it.
@@Romans--pe4yh I have been to India on a Mission trip. Have you? Still can’t give me one example or recording of this. It’s always something you can’t prove. All of Jesus miracles were proven and public.
It's confusing for me to hear that to desire spiritual gifts is to devalue the word of God, when 1 Corinthians 14 literally says to "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts".
Right and Paul wasn't writing to apostles
In 2011, the first time I ever prayed for someone's healing was in Tapei, a young man and three of his friends approached me, and the one on crutches and a leg splint explained that he had torn the ACL and MCL of his knee playing basketball a month before. I prayed a quick prayer (15-20 seconds) and when I stood back up the kid's eyes were as big as plates. He was completely healed. A doctor examined him and his knee was strong and healthy. Nothing quite like that has happened in my prayer life since. Those kinds of things I see as evangelistic and tend to happen where the gospel is being preached, and so it can be seen as the starting point, the elementary 'foundation' that God is real, sovereign and He touches those He wills to touch. I'm reluctant to be too black and white about it, but always willing to learn and be shown more.
Yes. Bro. Zac Poonen has knowledge that even today, in the extreme remote areas of the world, where the Gospel is being preached for the first time, miracles accompany the preaching. Then, we reach a point of maturity in the Word, when faith doesn't require any signs.
I believe the healing comes with the grace that initiates the receiving of Christ, the Father drawing people to His Son in election.
I’m curious-is it the lacking a need of these miraculous signs that is the reason behind them no longer occurring in places that have been “reached” with the Gospel? Or is it the staunch materialism and aspirituality of the places without these signs? People act like the west is just brimming with the life of God’s Word and so it no longer needs the Spirit of power to come and convict it and raise it from its deadness. Think again.
Your experience is NOT the test of truth, truth is the test of your experience.
@@bradjohnson8100 Is that your experience?
Show me ONE verse in the Bible that says that certain gifts of the Spirit will cease when the Bible is complete. Just one… and I’ll become a cessationist.
Show me one verse in the Bible that says babies can't be baptized and I'll be a baptist, show me one verse in the Bible that says babies CAN be baptized and I'll be a follower of infant baptism, show me one verse in the Bible which states that the sabbath has explicitly changed to Sunday and I won't be a 7th day adventist (for record i'm not a 7th day adventist) just one, show me one verse in the Bible which teaches the word trinity and..... you get the point. Sometimes it doesn't work that way. We have to be more mature and understanding of scriptures and putting them together.
Can you honestly say that you've seen people speak languages instantly in a moment that they have never studied before? Have you seen a real true miracle/sign and wonder such as dead person coming back to life? If not, what does that then mean in regards to scripture?
None of you know any verses yourself because you dont know or read the bible you fake hypocrite charlatans lol
Show me one person (other than Christ) that has been raised from the dead like Lazarus and I will believe the sign gifts continue.
Alison Whittaker, read Craig Keener’s book “Miracles Today”. He has records of modern day miracles, including medically documented healings and even stories of resurrections. 🤷🏿♂️.
But that question cuts on both sides of the argument. Neither do we have a verse pointing out that the gifts will continue after the compilation of the Bible. Cessationism is derived from reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and not from a single verse.
Amen, beautifully explained. Also the scriptures where Paul left a
brother sick and giving Timothy advice for his frequent stomach ailments shows they were ceasing.
Its pharisaical to want a sign. They and we had them. Sufficiency of scripture is key.
Jim Osman’s book “God Doesn’t Whisper” is extremely helpful here.
Btw, before you say Cessationists don’t believe God heals or does miracles today yes we do. That is a frequent straw man argument given by charismatics. He will if it is his will in any way he pleases.
BUT there are NO Prophets or Apostles today doing signs and wonders.
Why are their claims so amazing and yet no one has a cellphone or camera?
Are the hospitals emptied from miraculous healings?
New body parts or just “leg lengthening” aka Todd White?
We don’t need these false con men and women. All Christians have power in a humble prayer to to our Heavenly Father and if he answers affirmatively praise HIM. Praise him either way.🙏
Sorry, but you first paragraph makes no sense and the others contradict each other. You say no God doesn't then you say if God wills.
Do you think because it was said taking a little wine for the stomach was a sign they were coming to an end? What, do you think that because God said to Paul My grace is sufficient is cessation also. You had it right in one part them contradicted in another.
@@tstjohn777 I don’t see the contradictions. If you would be kind and show me. God saying to Paul my grace is sufficient is not the same as Paul recommending to Timothy wine for his stomach. My point was if Timothy was frequently ill why didn’t anyone heal him or Paul saying he or they could? The Sovereign God speaking to humans is not the same as Paul speaking to another human. God is the giver of all things including gifts of signs and wonders for the building of the first century church. That was the point these gentlemen made in this video and that was mine as well.
She's saying that God does performs healings and miracles today, but that those gifts are not imparted to any man to perform as a function.
@@jamessanders5418the problem is the Bible doesn't say the Spirit would stop giving men the sign gifts. You just infer it. We are entitled to our opinions, but it's not a biblical one if the Bible doesn't explicitly say it.
If u seat behind a desk all day and behind a pulpit. you wont see any powerful gifts in your life.
Share the gospel at homes, in the street, in the bus or train, visit the sick, jails, fast for days, stay up for days in prayer, visit the poor and hungry... you will start see the holy spirit do things thru u and others u would never imagine and you will THEN
understand.
The power of God manifest when is put to action.
how judgmental . God doesn’t want prideful ppl smh.
Your ego higher than the Heavens
“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.”
1 Corinthians 13:8
Mathew 16:4
Indeed
It’s ironic (and distressing) that a movement which has made sound exegesis of Scripture its core tenet would abuse and misinterpret the Bible so severely.
What on Earth is the sign of Jonah?
@@austinfondren5053 Jesus dying and being in the belly of the earth (hades) as Jonah. Jonah died in the whale and too went to hades (the land of the dead) and resurrecting as Jesus did. Jesus fulfilled prophecy.
@@matOpera 1 Corinthians 14:14 ‘For I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.’
This may be the only teaching where "reform" teachers rely on their personal opinions and do not hold fast to the sufficiency of scripture. For the life of me I cant draw the same conclusions drawn in this video based on the scripture references given. However scripture plainly states to "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts..especially that you may prophesy...so that the church may be edified...as oppose to He who speaks in a tongue who simply edifies himself.
Based on the above...is Paul laying another foundation?... Is Paul exalting "spiritual gifts" above the Gospel of Christ?? Obviously not! A scripture based believer knows that the "greatest work" of God on earth today is the conversion of the unbelieving stone heart through the hearing of the word only! Raising dead souls to life!! In this our Generation is blessed as we have not seen the risen Christ and yet still believe by hearing the "word only!" Now ......do we still have sick believers, family members, and friends among us? Yes! Are we still sometimes depress and downtrodden...Yes! So there is very much still the need for encouragement ...edification...and healing in the church......Why is that?...Because "that which is perfect" has not yet come! We are not living in eternity in our new resurrected bodies engulfed by the "perfect love" of The Father and our Lord Jesus Christ! This great Hope we have with our regenerated hearts and when this time has come ....there will be no "Teaching"..."Prophecy".."Healing"..."Tongues" etc.....simply because there will be no need for it!
Christians who still have the Hope that according to God's will and timing he may allow "sign gifts" to flourish again for a season in the church today are not "babies".....they simply read scripture and have seen ALL that God is well able to do in His own timing! Why reach and preach a doctrine that is clearly NOT outlined in scripture. ...but then again I remember what the apostle Paul says...."We know in part".....even the great reform teachers have limits on their knowledge and understanding placed by God! These men are great "guides"/teachers of scripture...nothing more... nothing less. We should all stay dialed into the word of God and avoid conflicts over doubtful things so that the church can continue to grow in the perfect love of Christ and not be divided over such things.
BTW I am quite reform in my view of Scripture and share the same disdain for how the Charismatic church has proliferated with a fraudulent "signs and wonders" "movement" for its own personal Glory and financial benefit ".
I agree with you bro... definitely can't throw out the baby with the bath water
Amen
Well said. Thank you for sharing
So why don’t we see miracles the way we do in the Old Testament?
@@elkellenhabla we must be careful not to extrapolate our personal experiences. In the old and New Testament miracles and “unusual” miracles were something that always depended on God’s timing, if it were not …there would be no need for preaching and prayer/supplication. But God’s will is that we are drawn by His word to Christ. Unfortunately especially in western societies even the gift of teaching/preaching is used to bring glory to the teacher/preacher and not God. False miracles are used to draw crowds and sell books. One thing that I notice however in the word is that the proliferation of “unusual” miracles and persecution of the church seem to go hand and hand. So I personally don’t have an anxious heart for such things. my personal experience with “sign gifts” may be a bit different from yours but I don’t think this platform is best to share. However know that God is the same yesterday ..today and forever. As long as He is still regenerating hearts of stone ……all else is simply the crumbs that fall from the masters table. Maybe the problem is that we don’t see it that way anymore . Be Blessed.
PAUL WOULD HAVE NOT TOLD US TO SEEK THE GREATER GIFTS IF THEY HAD CEASED .. THUS ENDS THE TRUTH .. AMEN
Thank you! This is very helpful. Having grown up in the AG, the "sign gifts" were an all too common occurrence in service. I was not then and never have felt comfortable with them, yet they were put out as not only evidence of salvation, but necessary for it. I'm thankful that when I was older and began to study Holy Scripture for myself, I began, by God's grace to see something that did not comport with what I had been taught as a child into early manhood. Today, I'm part of a Presbyterian Church and I lean more toward the cessationist side of the issue. I live in a small town that has its fair share of churches, however, mine is the only Presbyterian church within 75 miles. The concern I have is that it is a branch of classic Presbyterianism that holds that some of these "gifts" are still in use today. I've had several very cordial conversations with the pastor about it and still have no sound biblical response from him as to why. Thank you for shedding some light on this very important subject.
gifts are for edification of the church, not to prove your salvation
i fully believe all the gifts are active but gifts like tongues and prophecy are quite rare and where there are tongues, many times it is misused
My thoughts.
1. The gifts weren't just given to the apostles. Philip and Steven both performed signs and wonders yet they were not apostles.
2. The scripture does say that the marks of a true apostle are the signs, wonders, and miracles, but Paul wasn't saying "Only they apostles are doing these things", rather he was displaying that there were some claiming to be apostles, and that there needed to be a distinguishing between who is truly an apostle and who is not. Paul wasn't saying "only apostles are performing these gifts''. If that were the case, nearly all of the Church of Corinth would be apostles.
3. There was a group of men who were Baptized into John's baptism, and Paul Baptized them into Christ, he laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit, they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
4. The Church of Corinth in general, most if not all of them had the Gifts of the Spirit, of course they were abusing the gifts, but nevertheless, they had the gifts.
5. There's another story in the gospels that say that the disciples came to Jesus saying that there were others casting out demons in His name, but the thing was, the ones casting out the demons weren't part of "the group" I guess I should say. Because they weren't with the disciples in regards to status or placement, yet they were able to cast out demons in the name of Jesus.
6. Mr. Lawson made the argument of silence that "Nowhere further into the New Testament does it mention the gifts being used or in operation and therefore showing they died out by the finish of the canon of scripture". Just because it doesn't mention it does not mean it was not there. Paul spent most of his ministry in prison, so obviously it would be reasonable to see that the gifts such as healing wouldn't be displayed that much at all, this doesn't mean it ceased to exist completely. 1:24 I don't know who this guy's name is, but again, multiple people in the New Testament did these things who were not apostles but they were believers. The writer of Hebrews is not saying "Only the Apostles had these abilities and no one else", but rather he's saying that the WORD GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES were confirmed by the signs and wonders and miracles. It is not the apostles themselves just being sent by Christ and seeing Him raised from the dead, but it's the WORD THEY WERE GIVEN that was attested.
7. The Holy Spirit is the one who works the gifts, it is the person's job to obey the Spirit. The Holy Spirit can choose not to work the gift of healing, or tongues, or prophecy for whatever reason He may have. Just like how Paul told Timothy to take wine for his stomach. The Holy Spirit chose not to work the miracle because there was already a remedy, the same way with Paul himself and his illnesses, he made clear in one of his letters that Luke the physician was with him.
8. 6:11 I don't know that guy's name, but he basically said to desire the gifts, is to degrade the sufficiency and inherency and completion of scripture (paraphrased). Paul told us to desire the gifts, especially prophecy. It would be completely and biblically incorrect to say that desiring the gifts, especially prophecy, means degrading the fullness of scripture, when Paul himself tells us to desire these things. Along the lines of what I already stated, that the Gifts of the Spirit was not to attest the "Office of Apostleship'', he ever said it, the signs and wonders were, and are, to ATTEST TO THE WORD OF GOD.
9. Paul saying "When I was a child, I spoke like a child..." does have to do with the gifts of prophecy and tongues, yes, but it doesn't mean tongues and prophecy is childish, and firm preaching is adulthood. The Church of Corinth was being immature in their ways of using the gifts but Paul was telling them, "You're being childish, you need to be more mature and more adult-like, spiritually, in how you use the gifts."
10. Jesus said "Blessed are those who believe and yet have not seen, for they show true faith." Jesus is not saying that it's better to believe without hard proof. Jesus is saying that not everyone is blessed with the same level of evidence, of seeing Christ risen from the dead. It had nothing to do with Spiritual Gifts, not only that, but it should be humbling that to realize that you never saw Christ risen from the dead, yet the man at 8:00 says that they are more blessed than first century Christians, and he says it with a since of pride, at least that's what I felt from it. Just because you didn't see signs and wonders and yet believe, does not make you more blessed, it makes you just as blessed. You're blessed because you have that faith to believe, even without seeing, and for those who see the signs and wonders, you are blessed because you had such faith to see it happen. Either way, you're just as blessed.
11. Their final point was that, "Why do we need experience when we have God's written Word?" Whatever experience you have with the Gifts of the Spirit in operation today, if it does not line up with scripture, then it means absolutely nothing whatsoever. If you received a prophecy that doesn't line up with scripture, don't believe it. If someone says they operate in the Gift of healing but they use crystals or charms or other pagan items, don't believe them. Not only that, but if it takes the glory away from Christ, stay away from the person performing any miracle or so on. Experiences with the Gifts of the Spirit are not invalid, as long as it lines up with scripture and gives all the glory to Christ and draws others to Christ. Which again, as discussed before, the Gifts of the Spirit are to confirm the WORD OF GOD that is preached, for edifying the body of believers, and for the evidence to unbelievers the reality of the Christ of Calvary and His resurrection from the dead, who He is, His love for us, and He wanting for all men to be saved and to come to repentance.
Well-said and you have read your Bible! Sola scriptura. You are right on.
I don't necessarily believe the certain gifts have ceased. There are times when they may have been used improperly by the church but for what reason would God stop working through some gifts and not others?? Are we not still in need of healings and miracles today?
@Renewal, you have to define miracles biblically. As for healings.......God still heals today, but there are not people who have the " gift of healings."
God can heal. Not us.
@@roberttrevino62800 God can heal through us
@@justinthebaby7156 Yeah, but whenever he permits it. People don’t get automatically healed every time we lay hands.
@@roberttrevino62800 Gifts don't just stop working, unless we choose not to use them
Step 1) arbitrarily separate certain gifts from others and classify them as “sign gifts”. Step 2) rip 1 Corinthians 13-14 out of the Bible and ignore the plain meaning of these Scriptures at all costs, especially 1 Corinthians 14:39. Step 3) insist on two camps of people: cessationists and Bethel heretics. Tell them that if they do not arrive at cessationism they do not believe in the sufficiency of Scripture and are in fact degrading the authority and integrity of Scripture while simultaneously identifying themselves with the Bethel strange fire heretics and holding to beliefs not found in Scripture (again execution of step 2 is absolutely critical). Step 4) teach as doctrines of God the traditions and confessional faiths of men and denominations (ignore Jesus’ warnings in Mt 15:8-9 and Mk 7:7). Step 5) in the event of pushback appeal to Calvin as your authority. Step 6) continue steps 1-5 until they finally concede and confess cessationism.
Works like a charm 😎.
SMH 🤦
Step 7 be a Charismatic nutjob like Sentinel517 that doesn't know how to rightly divide
the word of truth.
Then what were the signs and wonders that have all happened through holy people throughout 21 centuries of the Church? When someone was healed or raised from the dead? When tongues were given to preach the gospel to foreign nations? When someone was told by God to go somewhere and what was said was accurate to what they were told? These were holy men and women of God that this stuff happened to/through.
It’s been a blessing to read about the signs that occurred during revivals, like when Jonathan Edwards or George Whitefield preached.
Give an example of someone being raised from the death
@@roberttrevino62800 I guess now I can change your name to Thomas. You know, the guy who said, unless I can! Thomas a skeptic who refuses to believe without direct personal experience - a reference to the Gospel of John's depiction of the Apostle Thomas, who, in John's account, refused to believe the resurrected Jesus had appeared to the ten other apostles until he could see and feel Jesus' crucifixion wounds.
@@tstjohn777 I would be careful with judging this man’s heart brother, God bless
“Desire the better gifts”… “I thank God I speak in tongues more than any of you”… I can subscribe to the channel but not to everything taught here. In love, keep searching out the matter, I will too.
Amen. I'm a bit of a christian mutt lol. A calvinist that believes in speaking in tongues (in order, of course) amongst all the spiritual gifts. To say the gifts were unique to the apostles is wrong. Phillip's daughters prophesied and were only mentioned once in scripture and their prophetic words weren't written down. The entire church of corinth was flourishing in the supernatural and had to be told to keep things in order (not cease, but use the gifts in order 1 Cor 14:39). Even Augustine believed in miracles.
Even Jan Hus prophesied about Martin Luther and the reformation before being burned at the stake. You just don't see miracles in reformed churches because the gifs are denied and not even tried. Start praying for people in the name of Jesus and watch the lame man walk, the blind man see, and the demon oppressed be set free, and a prophetic word flow through you to encourage the believer and pierce the heart of the unbeliever. I'm not talking about Benny Hinn staged miracles or trying to force gifts when the lord says no and fully depend on the gifts. There is power in the name of Jesus.
I'm only 22 and these are a few miracles that the lord has done through me:
- I prayed for my friend with cancer who then puked out some black goo and hasn't heard of cancer since
- prayed for a brother that lost his eyesight in one eye due to diabetes and he can now see
- prayed for a homeless man with VERY swollen legs and has I prayed for him, his legs shrunk in my hands and the swelling and pain went away
- Prayed for a sister who couldn't move her broken arm and she could move it instantly after feeling a warmth run through it
- My dad had a lot of pain because of gout and it went away
- prayed for my girlfriend's dad's foot because it was in a lot of pain and keeping him off work and it went away
- prayed for a homeless man that was partially blind and he could see after
- prayed for homeless lady with a tumor and she was healed
- prayed for a sister with joint pain and it went away
and the lord continues to supply for the needs of his children according to his will
@@Romans--pe4yh awesome brother, I’m looking forward to meeting you one day, along with every other brother and sister in Christ. Thank you for testifying!
@@Romans--pe4yh ok you come to my church If you truly have the gift of healing and miracles today and demonstrate such by performing the kinds of healings and miracles found in the Bible. Because by having these gifts as a regular feature in the ongoing life of the church you are proclaiming the signs and wonders of the apostles have returned, we will then see you Adam giving the blind their sight, the lame walking, and the dead being raised. Happy to arrange your air fares and arrange the accomodation.
@@robmarshall956 Not MY gift, but it is God who works these things in all persons (1 Cor 12:5). I'm no one special and these gifts can be worked through you also. The "signs and wonders of the apostles" never belonged to the apostles, they always have and always will belong to the Lord. You can save money on air fare by trying them out yourself as they're promised in the word, but I'd be more than willing to help you guys out during my summer break if it's God's will. I'm off of school starting May 22nd. Where are you guys located?
@@Romans--pe4yh oh I thought you said the Lord did these gifts through you ?
Excellent explanation,Amen 🙌🏼❤️
I wouldn't because until the very last gentile has entered in and the door has been shut, the signs remain. Or does he love the last ones to enter, less then you or I. Nothing has changed, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, except for mans doctrine, theirs is like a shifting shadow, changing from day to day.
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"To want them and value them is to devalue the word of God" Word of God be like: Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy....
Word of God also be like:
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Amen, when I see Him face to face in heaven all the gifts will be irrelevant as I know Him fully, what a day to look forward to!!!! @@maverick7037
ok, define prophecy
im convinced many cessationists are prophesying without realizing it
and many charismatics think they are prophesying while they're actually blaspheming God
Well said. The signs and gifts were given to authenticate the preached word, just as the Father raised Jesus Christ.
So would you agree that missionaries, including some Presbyterian, have witnessed signs and wonders whist preaching in places where the Gospel hasn't been preached before?
It looks like 1 Corinthians 12:7 says that each member of the body of Christ is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. "The common good" seems more common than just authenticating the preached word. Also, does the preached word not need authenticating today?
@@AlienPsyTing1 yes, and it has been happened
John 16 : 23-24 it explains how we can ask for anything and it will be given SO that our joy may be complete. Also, the scripture records the lord healed and miraculously provided out of compassion. The creation of wine at the wedding sounded like it was just a response to obedience and faith.
Where does scripture ever teach that?
To the argument that “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) means no further divine revelation will be given-then why is Jude writing an inspired letter of Scripture *_after_* that faith had already been definitively delivered?
Thanks so much. Answers my question point blank and resolves a concern I'm becoming aware of in the church I attend.
Hi Brothers! I don't know how to say the how much You're helping me in understanding those difficult texts of the Bible. The Ligonier Ministry is a realy ruge help to us the christians. Definitly we have to reconise that Dr. Sproul was chosen by the Lord to bless the world. Thank You so much.
2 Peter 1:19-21
[19]We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
[20]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21]For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The only thing that faded away and got devalued is your faith and perseverance
One of the common charges against those who hold to a cessationist position is that we do not “believe in the gifts.” Not true. A cessationist is not one who, as many wrongly suppose, rejects the spiritual gifts. Cessationism is, by definition, the theology which holds that only the Apostolic, or, Sign, gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues (a separate gift by the way), healing, and miracles have ceased and are no longer in operation. All of the other gifts such as teaching, mercy, exhortation, giving, etc. are still very much in operation. So, do I believe in the spiritual gifts? Of course! Do I believe that the Apostolic (Sign) gifts have ceased? Yes. Keep in mind, too, that when God heals someone today, that is not the gift of physical healing. It is simply God acting according to His sovereign will and has nothing to do with any other individual(s) or their gifts or lack thereof.
What about John 14:12 and Acts 2:17-18. These passages clearly refute cessationism
Yap. Amen
@Rubes Ruiz And your answer to John 14:12?
@Rubes Ruiz It would be wise to pay attention to the plural usage of the word DAYS in Acts as well. Pentecost was just a day.
With every covenant in the Bible God worked His miracles. This panel presumes that God no longer works His miracles through his children in the greatest of all covenants. As for me and my house, we'll enjoy the God who is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
We
Very good and instructive. Thank you.
I find it interesting, maybe concerning, that those who promote Sola Scriptura spend so much effort to promote a teaching that is not based on any Scripture. The world uses the same logic to claim that God doesn't exist. By the way, it was not only the Apostles through whom Christ performed miracles - Stephen was a deacon. Crackpots using magic tricks to fake miracles in order to promote themselves - like Simon Magnus - doesn't mean that real miracles do not take place today. Why then are elders to lay hands on the sick if they don't believe Christ does miracles today. It is a mistake to suggest that Christ is now off in heaven no longer active in and through His Church as He was in the New Testament. The New Testament is still in force, and so is the power of Christ to bear witness to the Gospel "by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will" (Heb 2:4). Maybe what we should be doing is asking why we have such little faith in the power of God today. Why pray for God's kingdom to come, if we don't believe He still does mighty deeds? Why pray for God to provide for us if we don't believe He still does mighty deeds? Why pray for anything or about anything if we don't believe God performs miracles? Stop the nonsense, guys, and proclaim the powerful message of the living God who does not change!
Thank you for solid teaching.
Signs and gifts are still on since they don’t compete with Scripture. Gifts are simply tools to the given to the Body of Christ. The idea of ceasing the gifts is an absolutely post biblical teaching.
My experience serving in India for Christ, is that miracles of healing are happening everyday.
Ask and you shall receive is not chained by time, your intellectual approach to God's Word is staggering. Come to the Slums but please leave your shiney suits at home.... You belong in palaces...
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While I like these men and am reformed, on this issue I am still waiting for biblical texts saying they have ceased! I fully agree with closed cannon of scripture and gifts used as signs but nowhere does it say they have ceased! Lloyd Jones believes they continued!
Amen Amen! I’m a cessationist & didn’t know it! This is such a problem causing a division in the Body of Christ!
Cessationists are the ones causing division in the body by denying what scripture plainly teaches.
If you research dissertation you'll see that signs and wonders are old covenant because they were under law. After Jesus died we have grace which is the more excellent way. You'll notice that pentecostals don't agree but they have no idea that pentecostalism was started by a Sodomite.
Answer : You don't, because they haven't
Mar 16:17 (NKJV) And miraculous signs will follow to THOSE BELIEVING THESE THINGS: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues...Take note, JESUS says, for those who BELIEVE, NOT only for the Apostles nor for a certain TIME PERIOD, but those who BELIEVE. My conclusion is that Cessationists aren't Christian and clearly talks against Christ and the Gospel.
The greatest blow to the continuationists thinking is Matthew 7:21-23. There we find pseudo believers shockingly being told to depart into a Christless eternity. Believers who all practiced sign gifts.There was not a cessationist in the bunch. They would all have been continuationists.
This is the one area in which I come at an impasse with reformation theology. I go to a very extremely charismatic church but my theology and thinking is very much reformed due to the teachings of these incredible men of God. But I would argue that to say that the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit is not well an active today is almost (to me) putting God in a box. I love Dr J Lawson and admire these men but I’ve seen way to many healings and prophetic words in my life (with a lot of testing and discernment) that shows that people still have the gifts of the spirit told to us in 1 Corinthians 12. I would like to consider my self a reformed charismatic lol (if that’s even a thing). As the body of Christ, we all have different functions and ways of doing “church” and I do believe some churches just have different callings and ministries that ultimately all bring glory back to Christ Jesus. As long as the Gospel is being preached fully and if in the mix miracles happen then glory to God.
To the argument from Hebrews 2:3-if the author of Hebrews distinguishing himself from the apostles points to the cessation of the gifts, then why did that same author prophetically write one of the greatest books in the Bible?
These fellas have created a separate reality with their own language and word meanings.
Join today and begin tithing.
I was in the Assemblies of God for over twenty years and admit to being witness to mostly questionable "sign gifts" as displayed in church services. In addition to that fact I now hold to Reformed theology as taught by Ligonier ministries but I must confess that these arguments mentioned are not convincing at all on the subject. None of the points mentioned nor the Scripture references made clearly teach cessationism as a Biblical fact. On one hand I do see countless abuses in the name of "spiritual gifts" but on the other hand I do not see any concrete Biblical arguments against the spiritual sign gifts continuing. Paul wrote specific instructions to the Corinthians concerning these gifts, none of which were direct eye witness to Christ and His miracles. That alone dismisses some of these arguments.
In my experience when the spirit of God moves in a church fellowship and people turn joyously back to the Living Christ, charismatic people move in and cause division with their exaggerated behaviors and charismatic doctrines that produce fear and disunity. Many are puffed up with their "gifts" and "new knowledge" that they have something that you dont have and you are a second class christian. Therefore I have no desire to see charismatic doctrine promoted in the church.
Yes, it is blessed to believe in Christ without having seen Him resurrected (John 20:29), but it is shameful unbelief not to have the faith that God can work miracles through you as is pleasing to Him (Matt 17:20).
So are we saying that the gift of Faith and Wisdom has ceased? And if not why?
Galatians 5:15
New International Version
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Bellyfloppees are not christian they are not each other
Well explained. Thankful for this and the included scriptures. I have a lot of continuationists in my circles and I feel better equipped to express my views.
they are wrong. The gifts have not ceased.
did u read those verses? alot of talking from a half sentence. the bible has many verses.
@@56pjr I was in a Charismatic Mega Church before surrendering to a Reformed understanding of Scripture and Practise.
From 1993 to 2008, I did not hear one interpretation of tongues (languages) incident which the Apostle Paul explicity insists must accompany the gift. Not once did I hear interpretation. Again I repeat not once.
Prophecy never came to pass, but the same prophets faced no qualification or investigation. All I witnessed was chaos, mind manipulation, prattle, and the using of biblical texts out of their intended context and spiritual abuse.
Big name Prophets with their advertising machinery and rallies would come regularly to town and roll out their show and quickly leave. No hospital and hospice visits. Everything has to be stage managed. There were no records of cancer disappearing, paraplegics walking, the blind seeing et el.
I’m not saying the Lord does not send forth His word and heal bodies and restore souls.
His providence and provision is available as He wills it but, definitely NOT the way the pretentious Charismatic Movement makes it out to be.
Not one Charismatic prophet recorded the Covid Pandemic, Biden’s election victory, the BLM riots, the Russian-Ukraine War etc.
Take you will.
My most sickening event with the believe of the (unknown) tongue (jibberish) was in the Holy Land Experience where TBN actors were teaching visitors how to speak in “tongues” (jibberish), and people were falling for it. My last AOG pastor praised Joel Osteen a lot, but the “cherry on the cake” was when he preached on a Sunday morning that “Satan trembles when he sees a Christian in prayer and fasting.” He got mad and defensive at me when I questioned him on this unbiblical believe, and I knew then it was time to cut ties to the heresies of Pentecostalism. With time, Pentecostalism has not gotten any better.
Why wouldn't Satan be opposed to someone communicating with God? At the end of the day, all he wants is to stick it to God on how many people he can steal from Him.
@@austinfondren5053 one thing you may want to consider is that Satan is not a sovereign being like God. Satan is one of the instruments that God uses to manifest His will and providence. Do you think Satan attacked Adan and Eve without God's before hand knowledge and permission? Do you beleive that Satan on his own took away the prodigal son from his family without God's beforehand knowledge and permission? Satan can only tempt a man when God allows him to do it, to test that person for the purpose that he may recognize where he stands in his believes. God already knows. Now there are sons of the devil who has chosen to serve Satan instead of God. But these are also instruments in God's hand so His will and providence can be mamifested for the Glory of God. A sample of these are Judas and the Jews whom God used to put Jesus on the cross.
@@austinfondren5053 a person can communicate with God in any known language to the world because God can read the thoughts and the desires of any man. My experience with what someone calls "the gift of tongues" is a made up jibberish to demonstrate to other people "how spirtual" the person is. My suggestion to these people is to come off the pedestal before God may push them down. Jibberish tongues provides no edification to the church like sound doctrine preaching. PAUL IN 1 Cor 14:Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue (i.e. jibberish the so call gift of tongues).
@@josephdavison6967 What specifically is wrong with the phrase; “Satan trembles when he sees a Christian in prayer and fasting.”
@@jamessanders5418 Thank you for the question. First it is not biblical. You will not find a bible verse that states “Satan trembles on front of a man who is fasting and praying.” Second, it is allegoric interpretation, meaning that it is only supported by adding interpretation to the bible to sustain a religious believe. The bible interpretation takes precedence over any religion believe and not the other way. Third it is man-centered. When Jesus was tempted after fasting 40 days, Satan came to temp Him, but the bible does not say Satan was trembling when he approached Jesus. If Satan trembles when he sees a man praying and fasting, does that mean that man is equal or above to Jesus? God does not share His glory with any human being. If you are thinking of Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting., please know that this verse only appears in KJB. Newer translations do not have this verse because it was not in the original manuscripts. Every Fasting-Praying teacher misuse Isaiah 58 to support their believe that a man is empowered over demonic activities by fasting and praying. However, Isaiah 58 was not written to support that believe, but as a correction to practices over God’s established fasting known as Yom Kipur as stated in Leviticus 23:27-28. For these reasons the believe that “Satan trembles when he sees a man fasting and praying” is a very wrong and heretic statement. GB
Teaching is a gift… Did it get withdrawn?
Well said.
How could you possibly use the sufficiency of Scripture as justification to disobey the direct commandments of Scripture (1 Thess 5:19-21, 1 Cor 12:31; 14:1, 39)?
To the argument that the “sign gifts” functioned only to set the foundations of the church, here is Paul envisioning prophecy as a perpetual gift for the indefinite upbuilding of the Church until it reaches complete maturity:
Ephesians 4:11-13 (ESV): And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
Cessationism in itself is a new revelation, right? There is no written prophesy that says there are no more spiritual gifts... Really! No word of wisdom... No word of knowledge... No faith... No discerning of spirits... No gifts of healing... No working of miracles... No diverse tongues... No interpretation of tongues...
Essentially there is NO MORE SPIRITUAL GIFTS... NO MORE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN OF THE WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT AS JESUS SAID!
So who and what is the inspiration of NO MORE SPIRITUAL GIFTS? Is God the inspiration of CESSATIONALISM? We NO LONGER need to be born again?
Where does it say the gifts have ceased? Making an observation rather than having a scriptural declaration is dangerous. How did people get there should be a god the mother since there is a God the Father? Because they took an observation as truth rather than scripture as truth.
What about Romans 12? 1st Corinthians 12? Acts 2?
We absolutely shouldn't seek out signs and miracles to bolster our faith. But if it is God's will to use a gift from the Holy Spirit, then we should use it. We are supposed to desire the greater gifts, is there ever a time it tells us not to?
I agree with them that we do not need more than scripture to provide us with the evidence for Christ. However, how do they interpret 1 Corinthians 12? Scripture states that these gifts are poured out to all. To deny that they happen is to deny that the Holy Spirit works as is said in this passage. Am I misunderstanding this video in them saying the Holy Spirit gives out gifts?
The comments on here remind me of Thomas stoking his finger into the hole in Christ’s hand and still not believing that he was the risen Christ.!!
Are you truly living a life that is bringing glory to our risen Saviour or are you trying to elevate yourself !!!
I get what you’re saying. I don’t believe in all the whackadoodle stuff that goes on nowadays in the charismaniac church. But as far as verse John 20:29 goes. It’s referring to us believing in Jesus without having to see Him in person like Thomas had to in order for him to believe. Because he was doubting up until that point-AKA “doubting Thomas”. It doesn’t mean we’re blessed when we don’t see all the signs and wonders that the apostles performed. It’s about us not physically seeing Jesus and believing in Christ and in His word without having to see and touch Him like Thomas had to in order to believe. It’s about walking by faith and not sight. Believing without seeing.
Then Jesus told him, You believe because you have seen Me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing Me.
John 20:29
You love Him even though you have never seen Him. Though you do not see Him now, you trust Him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. The reward for trusting Him will be the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:47
May God open of eyes of the spirits of those falling for Satan's lies including in the panel. The Word and the Spirit have never conflicted in history and they both need each other as confirmation to advance the purpose of God. I hear words from panelists here empty the Cross and the Word of their power. The Kingdom of God consist in power and not in talks, especially ones that darken counsel. God doesn't follow schools of thought/theology. NOBODY can live a victorious Christian live. This partly explains why many Christians are living in defeat. In Africa, we see raw power because we learnt more to believe God's word above philosophical interpretations of the word. Yes, there are a lot of counterfeits and fakes around too but we have more than proven that the sign gifts have not ceased. Yes, there is a lot of hype amongst charismatics but we can't deny what our eyes have seen, ears heard and handles handled. Too late to bring us these kinds of human philosophies cloaked in misunderstood scriptures.
A great friend of mine unfortunately moved to the side of charismatic theology because she felt her "experience" wasn't strong enough in the conservative churches.
I usually agree so much with these men. However, we will disagree fiercely on this matter.
Excellent points but let's not forget "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign..." Seeking a sign is unbelief. I remember early on thinking that if only I could see a miracle then I could believe. How contrary is that to the reality that "the wind bloweth withersoever it will" and brings life to whomever the Lord has chosen for salvation? "To the word and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this it is because there is no light in them."
They ceased around the same time as the last of the Apostles passed into glory and we had the Canon of the New Testament broadly established. That's no coincidence.
Bingo
The only way to show the gifts of the Holy Spirit, specifically tongues, are not being given is to properly define them. And that just isn't happening.
Paul never spake as a child ... he did speak in tongues and exhorted us to do so.
“Why would we want some sort of direct experience when we have the gift of God’s Word in front of us…”, because it requires a direct experience with the Holy Spirit to be saved, to do anything, or to know anything. God’s Word is pretty clear on that.
8:18 does anybody know where this passage is found in the Bible?
That's John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
What an easy thing to look up you must not even own a bible haha
I have always wondered how Birk Parsons lost those fingers on this right hand. Anyone know?
As for me here in Zimbabwe l can't live without the gifts of the holy spirit manifestation because the powers of darkness are really real here and they torment people
Praise Jesus for His mercy, it is beyond me how a ministry like Ligonier that explains most everything else right can not believe also in these areas of the Bible that we should desire the gifts and that some people would have them. Maybe understanding that we don't use the gifts at will but as the Spirit enables us 1Cor12:11? I think RC Sproul is 'Charismatic' now. Anyways, Ligonier this the one area saddens me. My prayer is that God opens all our eyes to the truth where we are lacking in Jesus' Holy name and thanks be to God for you at Ligonier for everything else that you are doing well, God have mercy on us all to be in the fullness of His will in Jesus Christ's name, the only begotten Son of God, the Lord who came in the flesh
I am praying with you, brother.
You are missing the point in its entirety.
The signs of the gifts are not needed…. How much clearer do they have to explain for you to understand.
The prosperity preachers are in it for themselves and the millions of dollars that unsaved people are sending in rather than opening up the word and reading it for themselves and finding the truth !!!
@@johnhughes6106 Praise the Lord for His mercy. I am with you that prosperity teachers, and charlatans of all kinds make merchandise of others. Some of them do some sort of signs and wonders, whether it is faked, satanic like the magi who made snakes out of their staffs as well, or using the name of Jesus for real miracles but they themselves are unsaved because they do not do the will of the Father i do not know.
I think it is heretical to say that signs and wonders will cease before Christ returns, as the Scripture do not show this in my opinion. We see that there are two prophets in the times of Revelations. We are not to despise prophesy, both the Biblical and the non Biblical. We are told to earnestly desire the gifts but especially that we may prophesy.
The gifts are also for the building up of the church of Christ. When i see a lady who has no money to pay for a doctor in Guatemala for healing for cancer, say her tumor disappeared after praying and seeing it gone, it strikes me as wrong to say healing is not needed. Or when someone's heart is revealed through prophesy and they come to repent and confess Christ, it sure seems useful to me.
When people come into new towns to evangelize and signs follow them so people are keen to listen to the Word of God being preached, how is it different to lending authority to the Word of God in the days of the apostles? I suppose the Holy Spirit could have granted faith in the Apostle's days without signs and miracles too.
I could not see any of the scriptures used in proper context in the video. As mentioned in another comment, with respect to the members of ligonier conference, the mentioning saying that they are greater for not desiring to prophesy because they desire the Word, when the Word says to desire to prophesy seems like men's traditions above the Word of God.
It's so odd to me that this is not clear. That you mentioned that they spoke clearly, yet clearly to me they are not using the Scripture right in regards to this issue.
@@johnhughes6106 I agree with them saying they are not needed, but they are going as far as to say they do not happen. I think 1 Cor 12:4-11 tells us that the Spirit enables gifts in all believers and some do receive tongues and miracles of healing and other signs and wonders.
Amen
2 Peter 1:12-21 Peter wrote things down against the day of his death. He does not anticipate continuing revelation of the Spirit, but referred people to the light of the written word, of which Peter's and Paul's letters form a part.
Amen! I have often thought the signs were for 'that time' and there to prove Jesus was indeed the son of God. As Nicodemus said - no one could do these things were he not from God. Jesus knew His time was short and these signs and wonders had to bring people in to belief.
Paul told the Church to desire the gifts, I'm sorry but philosophy wont convince me...
I believe that gifts were just for the development of the early church. God wouldn't have put them in His word and said desire them. If He would have, I believe He would have said it was for establishing the Church. God is not the author of confusion.
@@tstjohn777 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:1, 39-40
Seems clear...
@@tstjohn777 No he isnt but the misguided charasmatic church is.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way
1 cor 12...
This is not for us gentlemen. We devalue the word of God if we believe this scripture. That's pretty ironic. Don't earnestly desire the better gifts in other words...
These men are great preachers and excellent brothers in the Lord, and though love is obviously of utmost importance and a more excellent way which these men teach, yet why despise the other gifts of God if used how God intended us to use them. As Jesus said, "let it be according to your faith."
The problems and danger arise when some people simply predict God says this and that when those words are the products of their own thoughts. Many lives been destroyed because of their false prophecies and so called words of knowledge or wisdom. Some can be destructive in the sense that it breaks up marriage, make people an emotional wreck, living in fear and constantly wonder if they are saved or God has abandoned them etc. Some covetous ones make use of the vulnerable and lonely or sick and persuade them to surrender whatever they have especially in time of their crisis. They harp on the issues and instill fear in the heart of the believers. Yet the bible says to test the spirit but there are people who have blindly followed their instructions before fall into difficulties and live in despair. Giving should come from the heart not by force. Whoever and whatever to be given is decided by the
Trustee not others who have no right or ownership in it. It is an excuse to satisfy their own ambitious will, to gain favour from the leaders and to be promoted to a higher level when they successfully 'force' the rightful owners to part with what they have. They use the example of what Christ said to the young rich man in the bible. Why did they ignore, the head covering in the church, no lady preachers, no divorce unless one party commit adultery, gossipings, slandering mocking indiscriminately etc. They should deal with people who go waywards in the church first before they deal with those not even their members. They pick and choose and target on certain groups they think they can control.
@@kimjasmine7767
I agree with what you say... but Jesus also said my sheep hear my voice. God's children may be deceived for a season, but will not be deceived ultimately... He also said we are in the palm of His hand and no one can pluck us out.
The only way to teach cessation is make the gifts into signs, and the signs are to reveal God’s “approval” on the APOSTLES. Its why he first goes to Ep 2:20. The problem is there is not a single verse that declares the temporary nature of the sign gifts. In fact Paul said do not forbid speaking in tongues as well as do not despise prophesies. So what evidence do the cessationist use? They base their beliefs on experience, the lack of. Would you want to know how to be born again by asking someone who believes that you can’t be born again.
And ask any Calvinist and they will tell you that you can not judge Christ based on His followers, so stop judging the present day validity of The manifestation of the Holy Spirit on misuse and abuse of those of us who know the gifts are for today.
The most useful book i have read is by Jack Deere “ Surprised by the power of the Holy Spirit” He was a cessationist and is not now. He was high up at Dallas Theological Seminary and was fired for coming face to face with the power of the age to come. Blessings
There is no biblical foundation whatsoever for the belief that the sign gifts have ceased.
“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.”
1 Corinthians 13:8 NIV
the 1st century saints did not have a complete bible and we do. peter said the word is better than eye witness testimony
notice that these great expositors of Scripture aren't really demonstrating from the Scriptures here why these gifts have indeed ceased. if their case was airtight, they wouldn't have spent all this time arguing for a philosophy of Spiritual gifts. Rather, they would be unpacking Scripture to demonstrate the truth of their claims. One of the biggest Scriptural arguments made here was Lawson's argument from silence--that these things weren't really mentioned in Paul's later letters.
We find that Apostle Paul had a friend that was nigh into death and Paul didn't or couldn't heal him so it appears that the gifts were already fading.
The great commission completely refutes cessationism. We see in part and we prophesy In part, 1 Cor:13 it’s not a formula but how can anyone deny the gifts with so many testimonies of miraculous healings?
Its amazing how they talk about devaluing the Word, but seem ok with devaluing the One who inspired that Word. He gives the gifts and He inspired the Apostlpe Paul to earnestly desire spiritual gifts.
Ist Corinthians 1 verses 5 - 7 expressly tells us that the spiritual gifts (charismata) will not be lacking until Christ our Lord is revealed. The faith may certainly be lacking on our part, but not God's willingness to bear supernatural witness to His son. It is the Bible itself that encourages us to believe in miracles, and not a single verse can be adduced to dieprove this.
There's nowhere in scripture that states the gifts have cease with the Apostles. I am reformed and identified with the charismatic movement. Did not Apostle Paul said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to desire these gifts? I love to study theology, church history, and apologetic; also, to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Prophesy, miracles, and healing) manifest at the proclamation of the gospel or just simply praying for someone. I personally have experienced these gifts through me.
These folks are fighting a losing battle.
Then sign gifts are not a subset of the apostolic ministry. Instead, the apostolic ministry is just one of the many gifts the Spirit granted:
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (ESV): Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
Problem with the "foundation" example - a foundation is layer once and used every day. If its a bad foundation and crumbles, the whole structure falls apart.
The foundation has, and serves, specific purpose. The idea of using it every day isn't valid to claim we can use the gifts every day bc the foundation is serving its purpose. The purpose is applied in that the gifts were used to build the church through the apostles, and we use what they built to live by. The gifts were the tools to get the foundation laid. We now have a different tool, the NT, which compliments the OT, and we use that tool every day. Let the foundation serve its purpose and use the house itself for its purpose. It's not the foundation that keeps you warm at night; it's the house that is held up by its foundation.
Apostolic foundation is about doctrines not gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Co 12 - 14. Gifts attested preaching of the gospel but this is not the only function of the gifts. Still remains the function of building of the church. So believers are to desire to prophecy. This prophecing is not giving another new doctrines but disclosing intends of peoples' hearts, encouraging, councilling. The gift of faith foe example is given in conjunction with prayer.
I wouldn’t … because they haven’t.
Not until we see him “face to face:”
1 Corinthians 13:9-10,
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but WHEN THE PERFECT COMES, the partial will pass away.”
I wouldn't try to so persuade someone, as long as they don't insist/demand the exhibition of such sign gifts as evidence of salvation.
Acts 5 also. Everyone else stood in awe
"There's no mention of these sign gifts later in the New Testament, past 57 or 58 AD." Huh? The entire book of Revelation is a prophecy.
“so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
1 Corinthians 1:7
“that which is perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13 is the coming of Christ where we see Him face to face.
One may not rebuild a foundation over and over- but they do continue to build on it.
We need to do things the way the first century church did in terms of doctrine and practice. Paul believed in the sufficiency of Scripture and coveting the best gifts. Paul spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthian church.
Coveting the best gifts is commanded. Forbidding to speak in tongues is commanded against. If you read 1 Corinthians 12-14 Paul gives thorough instructions on how the gifts are to operate properly and how to avoid abusing the gifts of the Spirit.
Also, the consistent sign of the baptism of the Spirit in the book of Acts was speaking in tongues.
If your Christianity is different than Paul’s then you may want to read Galatians 1. That is dangerous to rob the Gospel of the beautiful gifts that Christ has poured out through His atonement on Calvary.
It is disobedient to Scripture to not have spiritual gifts operating in your church.
Signs did follow first century believers and signs will follow modern believers (Mark 16:16-18).
I judge my experience in light of Scripture. I speak in tongues. I on 2 occasions had people know what I said in tongues because they recognized a word I said.
I have seen people healed miraculously.
I just talked to a man who had cancer through his whole body and had no hope medically that was miraculously healed in Jesus’ name.
I just saw the other day where in Denver, Colorado at a Pentecostal church there were over 100 reports of miracles including blind eyes opened, masses disintegrating and people walking out of their wheel chairs.
You have came to late to tell me that I can’t see miracles.
God has also given me words of knowledge and prophetic words for people that were correct & came to pass.
I am no one special- I just believe the Bible. If you believe you can see God do the impossible too.
Acts 2:39
1 Corinthians 14:39
1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (don't stop at vs 11).
2 Timothy 3:16
Matthew 12:22-32. Don't be on the wrong side of that.
Context. Context. Context.
What do each of those passages that go with those references teach? Don't fall back on the teachings of men, but what does scripture actually say?
I would love to get into a conversation about this. I have posted a similar challenge on more than ten similar UA-cam videos over the past few days and the only response was a single vehemant attack on me for taking those verses out of context.
Look closely. I do not even say what i think the context is. I only ask that you consider the context based on what the bible actually says and not some opinion of man that you have been taught.
I am looking forward to further discussion. Please respond.
Where is that line between positive thinking and the reality of the Lord God ? Does it then mean that believing for the impossible is to grasp at insanity since signs and wonders don't actually happen in the grand manner our minds create/ imagine a move from God ?
I am drowning in debt. If signs and wonders don't exist then is me trust in the Lord to miraculously make a way then more holding onto positive thinking against the reality that God doesn't work ? Help ? My steam is out and my reality turning from bad to worse.
You are speaking of divine providence and not signs and wonders. God can and does open and shut doors in our walk with him. God also gives his followers discernment and wisdom through his word. Hopefully you can make good decisions because your mind has been renewed through his word! We walk by faith and not by sight. But what happens with your finances will be a direct result of your actions and sometimes divine providence.
I'm all for the literal translation of the scripture. However, I have never been able to come up with a solid conclusion that cessassionism is true purely based on what the scripture say directly and clearly, other than human inductive logics and patterns being thrown in such as "sign gifts have ceased since the apostles". Even though I personally have never seen these gifts in person, I tend to believe they can still exist (say in African jungle when authentication can still be needed) though very rarely. I tend to think if not for certain groups misusing their so called signs and wonders, cessassionism would not have even existed(to curb those misusage) since it's not interpreting the Bible in a normal literal way that we interpret other parts of the scripture.
Not convincing because there's no such suggestion from Scripture that those gifts have ceased, and that those gifts being in operation is in conflict with God working through his church today and the complete trust in Scripture.
Ask them to perform them. Ask them to pick up and swing snakes around or drink poison and be unharmed
Well what if they answer back like christ dont tempt they God
@@zerowork7631 They're not God though. Christ who is God was tempted, they are not God
I don’t think this discussion is referring to a portion of a Gospel that isn’t believed to be in the earliest manuscript. I think it’s referring to the very clear teaching of Paul to “not forbid” and “earnestly desire.”
@@amyclutter7259 It is there. And people don't understand Mark 16 because they don't understand that the Bible is a spiritual book. Believers can drink deadly things without harm...that is, they can drink the poison of other gospels. They can pick up snakes without issue...that is, they can "handle" Satan without a problem. But so long as people think that the Bible is any old book, they cannot understand the closing verses of Mark 16.
As a former pentecostal minister, I agree with most of what is being said here, but I listen carefully to what they say, and as I see it they interpret scripture with a cessationist lens rather than just letting the scripture speak for itself. I am not certain that the apostles assumed the "sign" gifts would end. What if God would use an authentic tongue and interpreter today. How would that look in our modern age in light of a closed canon and no new revelation? I would postulate the possibility if he so chooses that it would be an authentic known tongue not learned by the speaker but that could be verified and interpreted by someone else in the congregation and that the interpretation would match the revelation God has already revealed in Holy Scripture. Im not saying this happens, but it would not violate the scripture that was already written. It is bringing the old revelation into our modern day in a miraculous way, perhaps to open someones eyes to the gospel that might not otherwise see it.
I agree that the sign gifts were for a period and during the apostles time.. but wheres the verse that clearly lays that out?
It gives the impression that all those that believes that the gifts of the spirit ceased also belive God will not answer prayers on regards of healing or anything alike. I have never ever hear of these cecessionist preaching or teaching from the bible on the subject of praying to God asking him for help when needed including healing or a supernatural act of grace. The new testament teaches alot about it but it seems that they are not interested. Its like if they just go to the hospital when sick, the accept any diagnostic as
"the will of God" . Sometimes it does feels like they don't even take the time to teach about how to pray for yourself or for your children asking God for healing because they are convinced God will say "no" according to their interpretaion.