How the 2D Zelda Team Fell Apart (and can they come back?)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- Top-down 2D Zelda games used to be released regularly but since the 3DS titles A Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes we only had the Switch remake of Link's Awakening. Where did those directors and developers go? What is the difference in philosophy at the heart of Nintendo that could affect the future of 2D Zelda? And where next for top-down Zelda?
00:00 The Questions
01:40 A Major Change
04:44 A Different Model
06:34 A Team Disintegrates
10:32 Shiro Mouri
15:35 Rebuilding the 2D Team
17:37 The Grezzo Question
A Link Between Worlds is my favorite 2D Zelda. Absolute masterpiece. And I played A Link to the Past at launch.
It really is incredible.
More people need to play A Link Between Worlds, such a fantastic game, locked on the 3ds
I still liked ALTTP more but ALBW is pretty much up there alongside it for me. And I'm a 2D > 3D Zelda guy
@@VagrantValmar Definitely a tough call for me. Link’s Awakening at three also hurts. 2D>
I absolutely hate that game it's good/great but it does mix well with Alttp thematically. Not having level scaling on a 2D Zelda is worst because the lack of complexity in 2D games requires properly scaled difficulty.
This game more than Totk needed to be a new game in the minish cap universe.
Bro how do you make so many high quality long videos so fast 💀
I just thought this as well
It’s possible he has a backlog of content ideas, scripts, etc. That’s not to take away from what he’s doing though. I doubt I’d ever be able to make comprehensive videos akin to his. I find what he does to be very impressive.
Hes like a veteran plater starting a new save file
@simeon9506 Mainly this.
Artificial intelligence
Such an interesting comparison with Mario Wonder. We really need more major releases like that that dare to be different. I'd be very disappointed if all Zelda knew how to do from here on out was make a remake or ride the open-world action adventure train. Unfortunately, ALBW was already 10 years ago and all we've had since then is either of those two things, so... Here's hoping!
Grezzo is such an underrated dev team. Their work on Ever Oasis convinced me that they know how to make an original Zelda title.
The Adventure of Link Spirit Tracks Minish Cap Four Swords adventures deserve modern remake
I would love a Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks double pack!
Also The Minish Cap is criminally underrated. Every Zelda fan truly needs to play it!!!
I'd love to see The Adventure of Link get a full reimagining treatment. Or even a successor game like how Link Between Worlds is to Link to the Past.
13:35 - 14:12 This was cathartic, you have perfectly articulated thoughts I've been having about the Zelda series for years. Thank you
It's unfortunate if they can't get EPD to make 2d Zelda, but it's really not that bad if they just have Grezzo working on it. Nintendo's got plenty of other great games made by 3rd party studios, like Metroid Dread, Yoshi's Woolly World, and (partially) Pikmin 4.
Grezzo is the best team to handle Zelda when EPD is busy. They knocked OoT and MM out of the park and actually enhanced the original games rather than just uprezzing the textures like most remakes do.
Capcom also needs to get back into the game because The Minish Cap was just so good, and they did OoA / OoS too.
@caseypenk
The MM remake was worse
@@caseypenk Agreed. Although the OoT and MM remakes really suffered from being on the 3ds. That camera control was egregious, that system desperately needed a second stick.
Whatever it is that they were doing in Between worlds, they need to do it again
@56ty_
Though ideally with a new map
Great video. I love your infectious enthusiasm.
I think every top-down Zelda game from now on will be done in a 3D engine with a fixed camera (so 2.5D), with an art style somewhere between that of Link’s Awakening and A Link Between Worlds. 3D games will definitely iterate on the color palettes of BotW and TotK; those games feel like the happy medium between realistic and cartoony.
I pray not. It'll happen that way, but it's a sin that 2D animation gets dropped from AAA budgets. Minish Cap is peak 2D Zelda art style and Cadence of Hyrule is absolutely beautiful as well. The 2.5D feels so soulless most of the time if it's like a remake typically.
Dude I love this channel I’ve never seen someone have so much insight into the company while also understanding what the fans like and want. I think ur gonna blow up this year for sure!!
Man I cant believe I slept on this channel for as long as I have. Incredibly well made, informative, and unique videos in the space. So well done and I'm excited to see your growth. You're going to be huge I'm sure.
Thank you and welcome to the channel!
I'd love to see a 2D game that does have the chemistry engine shown in the demo, combining the intricate dungeon-crawling with open-ended puzzle solving. They essentially perfected how Link moves in A Link Between Worlds but haven't really followed up on it since.
Grezzo seems like an obvious choice for a support studio in the vein of MercurySteam but I do feel bad if they don't get the chance to create original IPs like Ever Oasis again.
OK, setting aside for a second that I fundamentally disagree with the idea that linear games are 'of the past' and games that react to the player's decisions are 'of the now,' - There's nothing that prevents you from doing open world 2d games. As Aonuma pointed out in the lead up to BotW - The original Legend of Zelda was open world, with no set order for dungeons and several that could be stumbled upon and completed out of order. And if you couldn't make that style of game in 2d, you wouldn't be able to have prototyped BotW in 2d. (...And I'd point to the original Zelda, alongside the original Elite, as evidence that this style of 'do what you want' sandbox game isn't _current_ vs linear games as _old_ .)
But, more generally - How much Zelda would be needed to revive 2d/top down Zelda? How much Mario experience did the developers - senior and general - of the original New Super Mario Bros have vs being their own team, because I think at this point we're approaching the gap between 6 Golden Coins and New Super Mario Bros, and like it or not, New Super Mario Bros. revived 2d Mario after 14 years of remakes only. (If we haven't passed it already, depending on what you count as original 2d Zelda games. 9 years since Triforce Heroes, 11 since A Link Between Worlds, 15 since Spirit Tracks which I think are the three candidates)
Yeah, I should have given more weight to exploring non-linear 2D titles. And it's true that we could be looking further afield than the old staff.
Great video love the in depth behind the scenes information! I would love an Ocarina Of Time remake but a remake similar to Resident Evil 4 a remixed and bigger remake with extra content!
Fujibayashi himself started at Capcom (home of the greatest 2d arcade sprites in history), with the idea to “recreate the original 1986 Legend of Zelda” for a handheld.
I think it’s a very safe assumption, to assume the original topdown 1986 Zelda, will get remade with Fujibayashi in a leading role, as well as Minish Cap & both Oracles games being remade with Fujibayashi being in a leading role for all those games. Since….they’re essentially “his games”
I absolute love Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. I played them because I couldn't afford a came cube or wii, but a DS was more affordable so I got to play those games before I ever played Windwaker, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword.
I still have to finish Windwaker. Did play Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword (now my favorite game).
So I'd love more 2d Zelda.
I wonder if they could do something similar to Dragon Quest XI, in that you can play the game in modern 3D or classic 2D. I wonder if such a system could work for Zelda.
Really right now a big problem for 2D Zelda is that BotW and TotK are so amazing any new 2D Zelda would likely seem lackluster. Unless they came up with an amazing mechanic like the item rental and wall merger from Link Between Worlds.
I believe their best options would be either another multiplayer game, or something similar to the Oracle games with how the entire world map can change depending on the time or season. You couldn’t do Oracle of Seasons in 3D.
Thinking about it more Cadence of Hyrule might be good place to look for ideas like give Zelda to an indie studio and let them create something small but creative.
I feel like that’s way too much of an ask for an action game compared to a turn based RPG
Give me a sequel to Cadence of Hyrule!
I subbed very well researched content
There won't be another Ocarina of Time remake. Grezzo themselves already made one and it'd be trivial to port it along with their remake of Majora's Mask. They hold up great graphically.
that was a remaster not a remake
dont forget fujibayashi was director of minish cap and oracles
Your mention of Paper Mario makes me want to see your take on the likelihood on us getting a new Paper Mario closer to the older titles, given the coming release of TTYD. The series has a long and complicated history, so maybe it'd be worth visiting around the time of the game's release?
Interesting one although that topic has been so heavily speculated on by other channels I don't know there's much more I could uncover that's new. I'll have a look though.
We need 2D Zelda
Someone at Nintendo has to step up and make it happen
I wonder if they'd try to use a 2d Zelda game as an opportunity to help younger creatives/developers with potential get some more leadership or creative experience. That's what Mario Wonder did a lot of after all, they let newer and younger developers take the lead in a lot of ways. Nintendo is very notably a company where their workers stay with them for a long time, and it seems like they understand the importance of cultivating new talent instead of just relying on the old guard. If this happened, they might let some of the younger developers on the Zelda team go to work on it, maybe in collaboration with another team or something.
Wait a moment why do you you have only 5 k subs you videos rock
I came for the 2D Zelda team falling apart and stayed for the 4K next-gen Ocarina of Time remaster
Do we think that Grezzo developed Luigi's Mansion 2 HD? They made Luigi's Mansion 3DS.
I definitely think so. At least with a producer from Nintendo to ensure it’s a NINTENDO game.
Man, this doesn't paint an encouraging picture at all for those of us hoping for a new 2D Zelda :/ Hopefully Nintendo surprises us. It's been way, way, way too long since the last truly new 2D Zelda, not including remakes; at least 2D Mario had Mario Maker 1 and 2, and Super Mario 3D World was kind of a hybrid, design-wise, between the 2D and 3D games. Over 11 years since ALBW and still no sign of anything. It sucks.
It’s still possible as long as they outsource it to Grezzo!
an oot remake would be... insane. like holy wow i can barely even imagine a triple-a game with semi-realistic graphics by nintendo
@MrGuy__
What makes you assume an OoT remake would have semi realistic graphics?
multiplayer zelda, either 4 swords, triforce heroes or something new, but 2d zelda should try multiplayer again imo
I like to think a remake of the Adventure of Link for the 3ds would have been amazing.
IMO, 2d zelda has a place as faster production games between the much more massive mainline titles. I think outside of releases/remakes, little hope to see much from pre-botw style 3d zelda games.
I think they'll come back soon for the Switch 2
2D Zelda continuing is the only chance we have at getting more games in the classic Zelda formula since the 3D games have abandoned that style
Personally, I would hope a new 2D Zelda would get the same creativity other series are getting. Would be such a wasted opportunity if 2D Zelda was just stuck in the past locked into the same tired old formula. A lot of ideas in newer games would work really well in a top-down perspective with simplified controls.
@@DMcGrannaslong as there is linear dungeons/story and no weapon durability with normal controls
Now it may just be extreme bias in favor of retro IP revivals, but I think the much more likely scenario is in order to go completely buck wild with top down insanity, they make a new Murasame Castle. Go full ham like Kid Icarus did; start out as a soft remake of the original game, but then once the wacky space stuff kicks in just RIDE that insanity for another 20 hours. Roll credits.
People say "but Grezzo doesn't do action. Haven't Suda and Kamiya said they wanted to that?" Well, Kamiya's under non-compete now, and Suda's also owned by China, and they're right that Grezzo have aren't really known for high-stakes, off-the wall absurdism. But you know who does, and who also has a great relationship as a second party dev with Nintendo, but haven't done anything in awhile? Murasame's original developers: the one Human, now Spike-Chunsoft.
Very interesting. A new Murusame Castle would be amazing.
Another comment since it's a completely different point - I think the need to connect the dungeons together via an overworld, and ideally the things you complete dungeons with will be able to be used in the overworld prevents you from going Full Wonder, but... I think it would definitely be interesting if instead of collecting a Dungeon Item halfway through a dungeon you triggered a Dungeon Effect that has as much of an impact on navigating the dungeon as the wackier Wonder Effects had in Super Mario Wonder.
Maybe the dungeon effect would change the over-world after the dungeon is done? I think we can see some of the things in breath to be carried like stamina, pre-dungeon sequences and blessing of light(this time scattered in the world)
I'm sorry but albw is not the first 2d with dungeons in any order. While there is some linearity in the first most can be done and the dark world dungeons in lttp could be done in any order too
Yes, good shout.
Probably why they used ALttP as the base for ALBW tbh. The game didn't have to be reworked *that* much to fit the vision
Nice, I'll watch this when I wake up. I think Nintendo needs to do something to fill in the huge gaps between their open world Zelda games, whether it be 2D Zelda or maybe the older style of 3D Zelda. As long as it's actually new content rather than more remakes. It feels like the franchise has been starved for original content for a long time now with TotK reusing BotW's entire world.
Many of the issues with 2D Zelda can also be applied to 2D Donkey Kong, specifically Retro Studios take on the franchise.
Hmm... Very interesting point.
What issues? DKC Returns/Tropical Freeze are fantastic games.
@@joshpetzoldt6344 Similar to what 2D Zelda is currently suffering from, there really isn't any push to do anything radically different with 2D Donkey Kong. That's why Retro Studios bailed on Donkey Kong after Tropical Freeze. Retro Studios had no plans for a third country game.
I think it was more easier to justify two teams for Mario because of the money brought in. I think with Zelda's new heights it may be considered.
More like because one is in Kyoto and the other in Tokyo.
I can't wait for Aonuma to exit the franchise. The guy has shot himself in the foot so many times saying "I don't get why people like this" when it comes to Majora and the prior Zelda formula. I disliked how he "fixed" Majora 3D. I didn't even play TotK and I'm tired of open world Zelda and this dude wants them all to be like this from now on according to the interviews I've read. I don't want more games from a guy who doesn't even get why people enjoy stuff he's worked on. I loved LBW so damn much that I beat it in two 9 hour sessions. Then I did it again.
He won’t exit as he literally produced the best and second best selling Zelda games by far. Also, he isn’t even the director of those games it is Fubayashi.
multiplicative gameplay is highly featured In cadence of hyrule, the more you play that game the more situations you encounter and more solutions and ways to use the items you discover, unfortunately i think people havent played that game as much as it deserves, and people think you need to be in constant movement making it seem harder then it is
Before I comment right away ima see the video. Brb
We need new 2d game or remaster of 2d game
I hope that 2d zelda comes back with a vengeance for the next console. Im completely fine if 2d continues the dungeon design while 3d zelda is open world.
Why are we assuming that there's a remake of onirica coming
Huge name recognition, Grezzo's history, they need a major Zelda for the new system plus some degree of hinting which Zelda did before LA and SS. It's not an assumption but I think it's a strong chance.
What's "onirica" mean?
@@nintendoforecast What hinting? They also don't "need" a major Zelda title for the new console. I wouldn't count a remake of OoT as a major release if it's not completely redone.
Tbh I don’t really want a new OoT remake. I’d be fine with just a remaster of the 3DS remake. That version is already good enough.
I’d rather if they had Grezzo make an original 2D title.
Nintendo should collaborate with a talented indie developer to develop a 2D Zelda game.
They already did that with Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer Featuring The Legend of Zelda
I want a 2D Zelda, i want a side scroller Zelda, i want a hamster run liberal Zelda even if its done right. They should all come back, just like wonder and Odessy are the 2D and 3D games of those respective genres.
As crazy as this sounds, a link between worlds was my first Zelda game. Makes me feel like such a zoomer
‘Zelda maker’ is making more sense every day. The fact they have both the dungeon maker and the top down prototype stuff for breath of the wild
shoot just the game making process would be too long.
Nintendo is just focused on the open world zelda format for now i think
Capcom makes the best 2D zelda lol
Two words: Mercury Steam
Oh, wait, you ment top down 2d zelda, my bad! Maybe I am the only person in the world who wants a samus returns approach to zelda2
A Mercury Steam Zelda 2 would be really interesting (albeit hugely unlikely).
@@nintendoforecastUnfortunately, there are some troubling indicators that mercurysteam isn't really a reliable studio. Too much of their output was released on non-Nintendo hardware. More importantly, Nintendo has a terrible history when it comes to western developers.
Did they fall apart? Or did they just move on to 3D games.
Well ymmv but my point here is that the three people most involved with the 2D games of the 10s all left the team and in one case Nintendo.
@@nintendoforecast well, three people alone are not responsible for the creation of these games. It’s the whole team. I’m sure we will see 2D zelda games much like Zelda links awakening again.
i loved link between worlds, . triforce heros sucks cause of how difficult it is to 100%
These days I find myself going to India games for my 2d Zelda fix.
Perhaps Nintendo could take lessons from indie games.
I did a blind let's play of Blossom Tales
I enjoyed it.
I am looking forward to playing more 2D Zelda likes.
This channel is obsessed with talking remakes into existence lmao
Ha! Fair point although since their 2024 output is two thirds remakes, I think that's just where we are in the console cycle at present.
Love 2D Zelda, but I think 3D should be the focus moving forward
@bluezaton
There’s no reason they can’t make both 2D and 3D games. Look at stuff like Metroid Dread and Mario Wonder.
This video is 15 years ahead of where Nintendo is at with their Zelda development psychology. I've called for Shiro Mori to replace Aonuma even, but I got hated by BOTW and TOTK fans. At this point I think BOTW does more damage to Zelda than it helps it as a franchise, because it pushes it towards Fortnitization/Minecraftization. 2d/3d mix for Zelda is a far better conceptual approach to a boring Open World. I think at this point Minish Cap is the ideal type of Zelda: one where you get two worlds, two approaches and should serve as a fresh guideline for the sterile state of current Open world Zelda.
I never liked the 3d open world zelda games. You're not alone.
@@autumnmaru Most of the OG Zelda fans seem to be in early to mid 30s and an extensive chunk in their mid to late 20s. It seems like a generational battle between millenials embracing the old formula and Gen Z fighting for open world Zelda. But it also seems like the rule of a minority vs. a silent majority already in career jobs and not voicing their opinion about Zelda too much because of that. I don't know tbh. Let's hope there is a path for classic Zelda to comeback.
I did not finish botw and I did not play totk
i dont want to hate on these games, for many people they are great, just not my type of Zelda
I'm just really disappointed knowing that this series kinda died for me and I'm stuck replaying the old games (and probably its remakes)
@@timi0276 I think it's a temporary setback in the spirit of the times. The entire world is in a wrong direction in many aspects of society. Zelda will find a way back to greatness too.
Does Paper Mario The origami king do it for you?
the first 3 minutes are a lot of nonsense. how is this a nintendo channel when not even getting the history of zelda games right
Your videos are absolutely fantastic, I can't believe I'm lucky enough to get here before you blow up!!! Fantastically informed and well researched forecasting as always 🫡
Thank you!