Some critical items that affect the value of a PP that should be mentioned: check the spring bars. Patek Philippe uses solid gold spring bars, at least on their Calatrava line. How about the bridges and screwheads on the movement? There should absolutely be no blemishes. How about the case polishing. Excessive case polishing drastically reduces the value of the watch. Unless you are an expert I suggest asking a reputable dealer specializing only in used Pateks to locate a good example that’s within your budget. One more thing to consider: are ALL parts - screws- etc, original Patek factory parts. BEWARE: Rolex for one will blacklist a Rolex with even (1) non-factory screw- they will forever more consider that watch a counterfeit. Also, you mention the Patek Registry. It’s worth a phone call to Patek NYC to see if the watch has been reported stolen. That’s part of the registry function- not just mailing out colorful extracts at 100 Sfr a pop. Finally, when you do purchase that Patek, send your name, address, and serial number to the factory and reuest their magazine. As a Patek owner you will receive their magazine in whatever language you request) every 6 months. The magazine has a very high production value and is beautifully printed. I’ve been receiving them ever since I purchased my first Patek at age 32 - 80 or so issues ago. Be patient. Caveat emptor.😊
Great points Eric. When I went to get new spring bars for my Calatrava, I had to go to New York City to the Patek Service Center in Rockefeller Center. You're right... gold spring bars for gold-against-gold rather than steel gouging an ever deeper lug hole. You're right about excessive case polishing ... every time I bring a watch out of the case, they get polished with my watch cloth.... can't help myself! Take care, Bill
Thanks Arthur. One day soon---like the big ties in the 70s--dial size will revert to smaller and the giant dials will look as awkward as a tie from the Disco Age. Kindest regards Bill
One other thing to check is the spring bars for the strap. When I sent my 3862 to a Patek service center to buy a new strap. Found out the bars were not original. Around USD100 for each. They didn’t have stock tho.
Great point Adam! On my Calatrava, I went to the Patek Service in Rockefeller Center to get my gold spring-bars specifically for my model Calatrava. Steel spring-bars on gold lugs can enlarge the holes that secure the spring-bars and strap. Take care, Bill
At this rarefied altitude of horology find the dealer, not the watch. Collectability website is run by a dealer who was employed by Patek Philippe NYC for thirty years. His love of the brand is manifest. My next Patek I will purchase used and I will ask him to locate the model I am interested in: PP ref 5738-P. This is a Ellipse blue gold dial strap watch with an automatic movement and a platinum case.
It's good to work with people you know and trust. The Golden Ellipse is a magical model based on the Golden Ratio in the design. I sold my vintage (1968) Calatrava, but I will not buy a Patek with a silicon hairspring, Eric ... looking for models prior to 2009. Take care, Bill
STEM Project: More good news I just got off the phone with Patek Philippe's Parts Department in New York City, and I was told that it is very unlikely that the 1461 had a Calatrava Cross or "PP" on the crown. Some 1461 that may have a crown with the cross or initials is most likely a replacement crown. So it sounds like you got the real McCoy! Congratulations again!
Thanks Reza, with so many changes in Patek since I made that video (like dropping the entire Gondolo line) it probably needs an update. Ideas? Thanks, Bill
Not surprisingly a very informative video on a stunning watch, Bill. Of late, the feverish hype surrounding PP’s today have, to me at least started to look like perception over value in many models, particularly the Nautilus and more recently, Calatrava’s. I’ve turned to looking at their Ellipse models which still command more reasonable money but are far less popular. The 3544 is very nice looking as your classic dress watch and doesn’t empty the piggy bank quite so much. It shares the same calibre 23-300 as the watch just reviewed. Your views regarding desirability, value and perception? Have always appreciated your thoughts!
Hello MrRea. Yes, that Ellipse has been growing on me too. In the latest issue of Patek Philippe's magazine (sent to all current PP owners...even those like me with a 1968 Calatrava...) there's a great article on the Ellipse. They didn't mention it in the article, but Gerald Genta designed the Golden Ellipse for Patek in 1968 ( www.officialwatches.com/gerald-genta/history/ ); so it might be a great buy with both a very recognized profile and interesting history. You also might like these articles: ( www.watchtime.com/watch-to-watch/a-cult-classic-turns-50-patek-philippe-golden-ellipse/ ; www.lifestyleasia.com/551954/loupe-patek-philippes-golden-ellipse-best-kept-secret/ ) I'm a big fan of the golden ratio used in watch design, as is my Vacheron Constantin 1972. Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci Thank you Bill, not only for that substantive reply but also the promptness. You’ve certainly cast much light on the situation at PP. A contrarian approach is risky but always satisfying when it goes one’s way. You’re a champion in my horology book!
I have a Vacheron Constantin that has a leather strap with 'Patek Philippe' written on the inside. So after seeing the buckle on this watch, I looked at the buckle on mine. Mine does not have PP stamped, it has RW 750 SWISS DEPOSE. Can anyone comment on this?
Hi Rog, it's just the number parts of gold out of 1000; so when you see 750 that means 18K gold jewelry because the metal is made of 750 parts per 1,000 of pure gold. 18K refers to parts out of 24k. That's a good thing. Cheers, Bill
Hi. I just bought a vintage (1946) Calatrava 1461. It has papers but, having watched your vid, i'm worried because its crown does not carry the calatrava cross (it is plain). Did watches from that era carry the cross symbol on the crown ? I've looked at other 1461's online and they all seem to have the "blank" crown.
Hi STEM Project! Congratulations! The story behind the Calatrava cross is usually some kind of misinformation culled from a quick lookup of the battle at a fortress in Spain during the reconquista on Wikipedia. The word "Calatrava" is actually an Arabic word (meaning 'Fortress at Rabah'), but more interesting is the story of the Huguenots exile to Switzerland and that fact that both the Maltese cross (Vacheron Constantin) and the four fleurs-de-lis that make up the Calatrava cross are part of the Huguenots' flag and emblem. (See Video #16 How a Massacre Helped Build the Swiss Watch Industry.) My Patek 3468 does have the Calatrava cross, but apparently other crowns have "PP" and others are blank. (My replacement buckle from Patek has "PP" but others have the Calatrava cross.) This is certainly a question that requires more research!
Hi again STEM Project, I checked on some Patek Philippe 1461 photos, and none had the Calatrava cross on the crown--the tops were rounded and plain; so from what I've seen so far, they may not have put them on that particular model. If you live in the New York City area, Patek Philippe has a servicing facility in Rockefeller Center-I went to their Parts dept. to get some new gold spring-bars and found them to be very helpful. (The security to their facility is the envy of the CIA headquarters! They even took our photos before we were allowed to enter.) So if you do live near NYC, take advantage! Also, as a PP owner, you'll get a free subscription to their magazine--I think it's quarterly! (If anyone gets snarky about the vintage of your Calatrava...tell them you inherited it.)
sure.I will email them to you.and I like to see a review by you about the Piaget Polo tourbillon relatif.This unique watch deserves a review. Appreciate it.
Some critical items that affect the value of a PP that should be mentioned: check the spring bars. Patek Philippe uses solid gold spring bars, at least on their Calatrava line. How about the bridges and screwheads on the movement? There should absolutely be no blemishes. How about the case polishing. Excessive case polishing drastically reduces the value of the watch. Unless you are an expert I suggest asking a reputable dealer specializing only in used Pateks to locate a good example that’s within your budget. One more thing to consider: are ALL parts - screws- etc, original Patek factory parts. BEWARE: Rolex for one will blacklist a Rolex with even (1) non-factory screw- they will forever more consider that watch a counterfeit. Also, you mention the Patek Registry. It’s worth a phone call to Patek NYC to see if the watch has been reported stolen. That’s part of the registry function- not just mailing out colorful extracts at 100 Sfr a pop. Finally, when you do purchase that Patek, send your name, address, and serial number to the factory and reuest their magazine. As a Patek owner you will receive their magazine in whatever language you request) every 6 months. The magazine has a very high production value and is beautifully printed. I’ve been receiving them ever since I purchased my first Patek at age 32 - 80 or so issues ago. Be patient. Caveat emptor.😊
Great points Eric. When I went to get new spring bars for my Calatrava, I had to go to New York City to the Patek Service Center in Rockefeller Center. You're right... gold spring bars for gold-against-gold rather than steel gouging an ever deeper lug hole. You're right about excessive case polishing ... every time I bring a watch out of the case, they get polished with my watch cloth.... can't help myself! Take care, Bill
I liked your "frisbee" comment re: what some men wear. All too true, unfortunately. And yes, you (and I) are vintage too. ;)
Thanks Arthur. One day soon---like the big ties in the 70s--dial size will revert to smaller and the giant dials will look as awkward as a tie from the Disco Age. Kindest regards Bill
One other thing to check is the spring bars for the strap. When I sent my 3862 to a Patek service center to buy a new strap. Found out the bars were not original. Around USD100 for each. They didn’t have stock tho.
Great point Adam! On my Calatrava, I went to the Patek Service in Rockefeller Center to get my gold spring-bars specifically for my model Calatrava. Steel spring-bars on gold lugs can enlarge the holes that secure the spring-bars and strap. Take care, Bill
I heard now in 2023 the extract cost $500 plus you need to take pictures of your watch.
Wow, Perry, it really went up. Take care, Bill
At this rarefied altitude of horology find the dealer, not the watch. Collectability website is run by a dealer who was employed by Patek Philippe NYC for thirty years. His love of the brand is manifest. My next Patek I will purchase used and I will ask him to locate the model I am interested in: PP ref 5738-P. This is a Ellipse blue gold dial strap watch with an automatic movement and a platinum case.
It's good to work with people you know and trust. The Golden Ellipse is a magical model based on the Golden Ratio in the design. I sold my vintage (1968) Calatrava, but I will not buy a Patek with a silicon hairspring, Eric ... looking for models prior to 2009. Take care, Bill
Thanks for the help guys. Looks like my purchase is legit ! Phew...
STEM Project: More good news I just got off the phone with Patek Philippe's Parts Department in New York City, and I was told that it is very unlikely that the 1461 had a Calatrava Cross or "PP" on the crown. Some 1461 that may have a crown with the cross or initials is most likely a replacement crown. So it sounds like you got the real McCoy! Congratulations again!
Thanks Bill, Perfect like always,
Thanks Reza, with so many changes in Patek since I made that video (like dropping the entire Gondolo line) it probably needs an update. Ideas? Thanks, Bill
I agree Bill, but still with the change in the base model the review is legitimate
Reza Ghaf I agree... some things change; some don’t.🤫
I haven't big boss not yet but ill get for sure the patek 100%
Ok Dose, sound like your plan is all set. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci hopefully thank you
I have one calatrava vintage its reference number is 906
That sounds very old and rare Erick! Take care and get your shots if you haven't, Bill 😎
Not surprisingly a very informative video on a stunning watch, Bill. Of late, the feverish hype surrounding PP’s today have, to me at least started to look like perception over value in many models, particularly the Nautilus and more recently, Calatrava’s. I’ve turned to looking at their Ellipse models which still command more reasonable money but are far less popular. The 3544 is very nice looking as your classic dress watch and doesn’t empty the piggy bank quite so much. It shares the same calibre 23-300 as the watch just reviewed. Your views regarding desirability, value and perception? Have always appreciated your thoughts!
Hello MrRea. Yes, that Ellipse has been growing on me too. In the latest issue of Patek Philippe's magazine (sent to all current PP owners...even those like me with a 1968 Calatrava...) there's a great article on the Ellipse. They didn't mention it in the article, but Gerald Genta designed the Golden Ellipse for Patek in 1968 ( www.officialwatches.com/gerald-genta/history/ ); so it might be a great buy with both a very recognized profile and interesting history. You also might like these articles: ( www.watchtime.com/watch-to-watch/a-cult-classic-turns-50-patek-philippe-golden-ellipse/ ; www.lifestyleasia.com/551954/loupe-patek-philippes-golden-ellipse-best-kept-secret/ ) I'm a big fan of the golden ratio used in watch design, as is my Vacheron Constantin 1972. Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci Thank you Bill, not only for that substantive reply but also the promptness. You’ve certainly cast much light on the situation at PP. A contrarian approach is risky but always satisfying when it goes one’s way. You’re a champion in my horology book!
I have a Vacheron Constantin that has a leather strap with 'Patek Philippe' written on the inside.
So after seeing the buckle on this watch, I looked at the buckle on mine.
Mine does not have PP stamped, it has RW 750 SWISS DEPOSE.
Can anyone comment on this?
Hi Rog, it's just the number parts of gold out of 1000; so when you see 750 that means 18K gold jewelry because the metal is made of 750 parts per 1,000 of pure gold. 18K refers to parts out of 24k. That's a good thing. Cheers, Bill
Hi. I just bought a vintage (1946) Calatrava 1461. It has papers but, having watched your vid, i'm worried because its crown does not carry the calatrava cross (it is plain). Did watches from that era carry the cross symbol on the crown ? I've looked at other 1461's online and they all seem to have the "blank" crown.
Hi STEM Project! Congratulations! The story behind the Calatrava cross is usually some kind of misinformation culled from a quick lookup of the battle at a fortress in Spain during the reconquista on Wikipedia. The word "Calatrava" is actually an Arabic word (meaning 'Fortress at Rabah'), but more interesting is the story of the Huguenots exile to Switzerland and that fact that both the Maltese cross (Vacheron Constantin) and the four fleurs-de-lis that make up the Calatrava cross are part of the Huguenots' flag and emblem. (See Video #16 How a Massacre Helped Build the Swiss Watch Industry.) My Patek 3468 does have the Calatrava cross, but apparently other crowns have "PP" and others are blank. (My replacement buckle from Patek has "PP" but others have the Calatrava cross.) This is certainly a question that requires more research!
Hi again STEM Project, I checked on some Patek Philippe 1461 photos, and none had the Calatrava cross on the crown--the tops were rounded and plain; so from what I've seen so far, they may not have put them on that particular model. If you live in the New York City area, Patek Philippe has a servicing facility in Rockefeller Center-I went to their Parts dept. to get some new gold spring-bars and found them to be very helpful. (The security to their facility is the envy of the CIA headquarters! They even took our photos before we were allowed to enter.) So if you do live near NYC, take advantage! Also, as a PP owner, you'll get a free subscription to their magazine--I think it's quarterly! (If anyone gets snarky about the vintage of your Calatrava...tell them you inherited it.)
Patek Philippe Magazine is published twice per year.
I have one patek philippe calatrava its reference number is 906....
Thank you for the advice.Definitely one should consider it.
Got any pictures of your watches you'd like to share?
sure.I will email them to you.and I like to see a review by you about the Piaget Polo tourbillon relatif.This unique watch deserves a review. Appreciate it.